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Thread: Tracking David Stockton's Climb up the GU Top 10 Charts

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    Default Tracking David Stockton's Climb up the GU Top 10 Charts

    Creating this thread to track David's climb up the GU charts. (Not a debating thread).

    Following West Virginia game, 12/10, where David had 8 assists and 1 steal.

    Assists:
    1. Matt Santangelo – 668
    2. Blake Stepp – 640
    3. Jeremy Pargo – 589
    4. John Stockton – 554
    5. Matt Bouldin – 444
    6. Derek Raivio – 356
    7. Steven Gray – 339
    8. Geoff Goss – 324
    9. David Stockton - 323
    10. Don Baldwin – 313

    Steals
    1. John Stockton – 262
    2t. Jeremy Pargo - 170
    2t. Matt Bouldin - 170
    4. Doug Spradley – 159
    5. Derek Raivio – 156
    6. Steven Gray - 155
    7. Blake Stepp – 152
    8. Geoff Goss – 139
    9. Tim Wagoner – 131
    10 David Stockton - 127
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    Thank you - facts are facts.

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    I think Stockton has earned and played his way into a starting job. Seeing the company he keeps with our top 10'ers, it is IMO that Stockton would start on 95% of the Div 1 teams today. Especially if he was with the program for 5 years as a senior. If assists are an indicator of a true point guard, then Stockton is more of a true PG than Pangos.
    “People can talk. People can speculate. These guys are hungry and they're ready to go." Mark Few

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    I think Few actually knows what he is doing. 383 wins and on his way to 400 maybe this year. In the end the best players play under the circumstances at that time in the game.

    Coaching a game is calculus in a dynamic situation, not addition and subtraction after the fact. I can design a road or a bridge or a pavement ect.... Few can't do that, but he can coach...I can't and I don't kid myself that I can.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oregonzagnut View Post
    I think Stockton has earned and played his way into a starting job. Seeing the company he keeps with our top 10'ers, it is IMO that Stockton would start on 95% of the Div 1 teams today. Especially if he was with the program for 5 years as a senior. If assists are an indicator of a true point guard, then Stockton is more of a true PG than Pangos.
    HUH? Pangos is on track to be in the 400's for assists if he continues with his average the rest of this year and next year with potential to be ahead of Bouldin

    It is fun to see all the names on the list and each of them brought something unique to the floor......
    Basketball...The Toy Department of Life

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    Quote Originally Posted by bartruff1 View Post
    I think Few actually knows what he is doing. 383 wins and on his way to 400 maybe this year. In the end the best players play under the circumstances at that time in the game.

    Coaching a game is calculus in a dynamic situation, not addition and subtraction after the fact. I can design a road or a bridge or a pavement ect.... Few can't do that, but he can coach...I can't and I don't kid myself that I can.
    John Wooden said intelligence is knowing what you don't know. Takes some humility too. Way to go bartruff1

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    Thanks for posting those, SWZag.

    I wish that whoever maintains the pdf record book would fix the steals lists. The career steals list has been wrong for years and this year they left David Stockton out of the season steals top 10. His 53 steals from last season should be listed at #7.

    Also, I have Stockton at 128, not 127. Not trying to nitpick you, just want to make sure my data is correct. I had him at 112 to start the year and 16 more so far this year.

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    So if averages hold, it looks like at the end of the year DS will be sitting at 6th all time in assists at around 400, and anywhere from 4th to 8th in steals somewhere in the 150s.

    On another note, I suppose it's to be expected, but I found it interesting that 8 players are in the top 10 for both lists.

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    What would be amazing is if these numbers were adjusted for number of minutes played. I believe David would be near or at the top of the list.
    The hallmark of a second class person is the resentment of another's success-R.W. Emerson
    Whatever you focus your mind on grows, grow a rose garden and not a weed patch-Dr Paul

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    Quote Originally Posted by zag buddy View Post
    What would be amazing is if these numbers were adjusted for number of minutes played. I believe David would be near or at the top of the list.
    Don't have the complete stats for everybody on these lists. But the stats I do have would put John first and David second on both assists and steals per minute.

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    tx NC, great job & well done
    The hallmark of a second class person is the resentment of another's success-R.W. Emerson
    Whatever you focus your mind on grows, grow a rose garden and not a weed patch-Dr Paul

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    NumberCruncher, feel free to provide any corrections. I counted based on your earlier comment about steals. (game by game data from ESPN)

    Following LMU game, 1/18, where David had 4 assists and 1 steal.

    Assists:
    1. Matt Santangelo – 668
    2. Blake Stepp – 640
    3. Jeremy Pargo – 589
    4. John Stockton – 554
    5. Matt Bouldin – 444
    6. Derek Raivio – 356
    7. David Stockton - 350
    8. Steven Gray – 339
    9. Geoff Goss – 324
    10. Don Baldwin – 313

    Steals
    1. John Stockton – 262
    2t. Jeremy Pargo - 170
    2t. Matt Bouldin - 170
    4. Doug Spradley – 159
    5. Derek Raivio – 156
    6. Steven Gray - 155
    7. Blake Stepp – 152
    8. David Stockton - 143
    9. Geoff Goss – 139
    10. Tim Wagoner – 131
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    out of curiosity, is there a top 10 list available for turnovers? my perception of stockton is that he is turnover prone, so would expect him to be on that list too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WallaWallaZag View Post
    out of curiosity, is there a top 10 list available for turnovers? my perception of stockton is that he is turnover prone, so would expect him to be on that list too.
    I've never seen one, from any of various sources. One could be compiled from yearly stats sources, but it would take a little work (and wouldn't necessarily go back very far).

    Edit to add: A quick calculation
    TO's per minute:
    KP .050
    GB .046
    DS .071

    Steals PM:
    KP .040
    GB .026
    DS .063

    Assists PM:
    KP .109
    GB .073
    DS .153

    So, DS has the higher TO rate. OTOH, he also has a higher Steal & Asst. Rate on a per minute basis & in some cases, significant.
    (this is assuming I didn't blow any calculations in my haste).
    We didn't want the guy anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sittingon50 View Post
    One could be compiled from yearly stats sources, but it would take a little work (and wouldn't necessarily go back very far).
    Yeah, I researched it a bit, but didn't go too far back. I did get as far as noting that Stockon currently has 163 for his career, while Pargo finished with 357, Harris had 242, Bouldin had 281, Gray had 209, and Sacre had 220.

    Even if Stockton doubles the 34 he's already had this season (and the season is likely more than halfway over), he'd be just shy of 200. With the above numbers just from players finishing in the past few years, I really doubt he'd be on a top 10 all-time list.

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    +1 NC & SW Zag & styles

    The only thing that would complete this pix is to post KP's numbers in the same category. I agree w/Hoop that KP could well wind up ahead of a number of all time greats in those categories before he's done.

    Also, strictly from observation, I expect DS's t.o.'s to be and remain higher throughout his career. He takes more chances. He forces the plays at times and get's caught.

    He's basically sent in to make things happen, as often as not, and he does, way more often than not. That's his job. Find the open man. The job of everyone else is to get ready to shoot or advance the ball to someone in even better position. He's often the last resort but he also knows the clock and has no problem shooting or passing at the last second, whatever is needed.

    By their nature, and conversely, KP and GBj are much more cautious. They (GBj in particular and KP less so over time) seem to need to "feel it" before they'll shoot. It's probably also why they are better shooters. They know when to shoot and when to pass. But that luxury is not available to the last guy with the ball and a second or two left on the clock.
    Go TEAM Zags !

    "John Stockton is one of the true marvels, not just of basketball, or in America, but in the history of Western Civilization!”
    Tom Hammond: “Wow, that’s a pretty strong statement. I guess I don’t have a good handle on world history.”
    Bill: “Well Tom, that’s because you didn’t go to UCLA." - Bill Walton

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oregonzagnut View Post
    Seeing the company he keeps with our top 10'ers, it is IMO that Stockton would start on 95% of the Div 1 teams today.
    you dont watch enough college basketball. you're basically saying that he is a top 15-20 PG in college ball, and that is just insanely inaccurate, no matter how much one likes this kid's game.

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    That is amazing (almost unbelievable) that he is up there with those guys. I still don't like him though... too bad they don't have statistics of points against as he would be in the top 10 worst list.

    Those names are a blast from the past, isn't Doug Spradley the bald dude that would rain threes from a couple meters from the 3 point arc? That is when the Kennel Club wasn't full of idiots. The old times...

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    Quote Originally Posted by cbbfanatic View Post
    you dont watch enough college basketball. you're basically saying that he is a top 15-20 PG in college ball, and that is just insanely inaccurate, no matter how much one likes this kid's game.
    you got a link CBB ? He's the starting guard on a top 25 team. Ozn"s speculation seems more likely than, say, the prospect being "insanely inaccurate." Putting these two opinions back to back. Imo.

    I've never thought of it before this, but you seem to be adamant about it. So you must know something you can share to properly paint this stark contrast you raise. Fire away.

    It also raises another question.

    Stats Guys: what are the NCAA steals and assists numbers for this season ? Does someone keep running stats on them as well ?

    thanks,
    Go TEAM Zags !

    "John Stockton is one of the true marvels, not just of basketball, or in America, but in the history of Western Civilization!”
    Tom Hammond: “Wow, that’s a pretty strong statement. I guess I don’t have a good handle on world history.”
    Bill: “Well Tom, that’s because you didn’t go to UCLA." - Bill Walton

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    Quote Originally Posted by gamagin View Post
    you got a link CBB ? He's the starting guard on a top 25 team. Ozn"s speculation seems more likely than, say, the prospect being "insanely inaccurate." Putting these two opinions back to back. Imo.

    I've never thought of it before this, but you seem to be adamant about it. So you must know something you can share to properly paint this stark contrast you raise. Fire away.

    It also raises another question.

    what are the NCAA steals and assists numbers for this season ? Does someone keep running stats on them as well ?

    thanks,
    nope, no link. just eyeball test here. believe it or not, there are some good PG's out there on unranked teams, and plenty of relatively weak starters ON ranked teams (PG and other), so the "he's a starting PG on a top 25 team" line is about as irrelevant as it comes. doesnt prove much to me as i dont see the point in filtering out 300 rosters off the bat. (btw, David's hof dad didnt play on a top 25 team - does that make the son better than the father?)

    its not all about steal and assist stats either - there are just too many situations where I wouldnt want to put this kid on the court. one of those being against strong, physical, scoring guards. most good teams have those guys - i'd try to keep ds as far away from them as i can, if i was trying to put him in his best position to succeed. i dont have an axe to grind against the kid, he is probably a great guy and ambassador - but that doesnt make him a great PG.

    here is a different link though --- its the cousy watch list. i havent seen all these guys play, but each one that i have seen i would pick over DS in a heartbeat, if my criteria was that i needed a starting PG for a team that had 2nd wknd aspirations. and i am sure there are plenty of guys that didnt make this list that could probably be on there as well.

    http://www.cousyaward.com/watchlist.php

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    Guys, please. This is just to track numbers and numbers only. Please refrain from throwing opinions into the mix. There are PLENTY of other threads for that. Thank you.

    SWZag
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    +1
    Quote Originally Posted by SWZag View Post
    Guys, please. This is just to track numbers and numbers only. Please refrain from throwing opinions into the mix. There are PLENTY of other threads for that. Thank you.

    SWZag
    sorry. I was trying to encourage some of those elusive numbers.

    how about NCAA steals and assists stats ? Those numbers available ?

    thanks,
    Go TEAM Zags !

    "John Stockton is one of the true marvels, not just of basketball, or in America, but in the history of Western Civilization!”
    Tom Hammond: “Wow, that’s a pretty strong statement. I guess I don’t have a good handle on world history.”
    Bill: “Well Tom, that’s because you didn’t go to UCLA." - Bill Walton

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    Quote Originally Posted by gamagin View Post
    +1


    sorry. I was trying to encourage some of those elusive numbers.

    how about NCAA steals and assists stats ? Those numbers available ?

    thanks,
    tied for 98th in assists, not in top 100 for assists per game, steals, or steals per game

    http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/statistics

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    Quote Originally Posted by gamagin View Post

    how about NCAA steals and assists stats? Those numbers available?

    thanks,
    Looks like ESPN has a list of running stats.

    Based on assists / steals per game:
    Steals - The leader, Briante Weber of VCU has 68 steals, an average of a whopping 3.78 steals per game. #100 is averaging 1.78 steals per game. Pretty impressive. David averaging 1.6 per game to this point.
    Assists - The leader, Jason Brickman of LIU, has 160 assists, an average of a staggering 9.5 per game average. #100 is averaging 4.4 assists per game, while David is averaging 4.2 per game.


    Edited: Looks like cbbfanatic beat me to it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamagin View Post
    +1


    sorry. I was trying to encourage some of those elusive numbers.

    how about NCAA steals and assists stats ? Those numbers available ?

    thanks,
    According to ESPN, David is not in the top 100 for steals this season (he has 31 and the 100th best is 38). He is tied for 98th in assists with 79. I'm very surprised he's not higher on both lists! ESPN only shows the top 100 so not sure where he'd be on steals.

    Pangos is tied for 91st in assists with 81

    EDIT: Two people beat me to it!
    Last edited by BTB; 01-21-2014 at 01:36 PM. Reason: Two people beat me to it!

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