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Thread: Zags didn't choke vs. Wichita St?

  1. #1

    Default Zags didn't choke vs. Wichita St?

    Interesting take from Andy Glockner.

    http://college-basketball.si.com/201...?sct=uk_t11_a5

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    I had not realized they scored on nine-consecutive possessions. The killer mini-stretch IMO was: KP sticks a three and Zags up seven. Then Olynyk dunk/lay-up "blocked." I remember screaming "foul" at the TV. If that call is made, Zags could have been up nine, and an entirely different outcome possible.
    Failure isn't fatal. Failure to change might be.
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    Interesting take and yes WSU was hot as can be. What it failed to touch on was the poor defense being played by us in that same span. To me it was a combination of both and the perfect storm for the Shockers.

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    Ugh I still get angry just reading about that game. I'll defend this team about that game to the death, Wichita St. went nuts on us in that final stretch...throw away every stat you had on the Shockers going into that game because the shots they were making were ones that they usually would have missed

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    Default No choke

    Wow great find and great article. Thanks Bulldog. So much more full of FACTS than the blaming and crying than we read on these boards.

    The only thing I might add is that if you objectively look at top seven Wichita State players, with the exception of Olynyk, they are better players than the Zags. We just don't want to admit it because we get personally and emotionally involved almost like a love affair with our players.

    Most of the posters said they would be happy just to make it to the Elite eight and lose to Ohio State in a competitive game. Well Wichita State defeated Ohio State and that wasn't luck or a fluke. Wichita State is a good team with damn good players. They were just underrated during the year because of injuries.

    Finally Wichita State played national champs Louisville closer than any other team did in the tournament.

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    The perfect storm. Worse than UCLA, in my opinion.

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    Glockner is right of course. And it probably doesn't happen with a healthy Bell on the floor. Excuses, I know. But nonetheless true.

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    The missed obvious foul on KO was the key sequence in the game. Once again, the failure to call fouls is fundamental in the modern game of basketball.

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    Default This

    Brought back "Bad Memories"

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    What bothered me about that game was that WSU wasn't a very good offensive team, and also not a very good three point shooting team. The Zags were in the top 20 in defensive efficiency and an elite offense. On paper the Shockers had no business winning that game, although I didn't expect a blow out by any means.

    It didn't remind me of the UCLA thing because UCLA was seeded higher, had more overall roster talent & was expected to win the game. I still argue that the game was lost in the 1st half. The Zags should've had the Bruins down by 25 points, minimum, at the half. They were terrible...the worst 20 minute performance against the Zags of any team all season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zagco View Post
    The missed obvious foul on KO was the key sequence in the game. Once again, the failure to call fouls is fundamental in the modern game of basketball.
    Of course, slipper on the other foot (ha ha), the Shockers would have been screaming "let 'em play" if the call had been made.
    Failure isn't fatal. Failure to change might be.
    Coach John R. Wooden

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    Quote Originally Posted by CDC84 View Post
    What bothered me about that game was that WSU wasn't a very good offensive team, and also not a very good three point shooting team.
    That's what I thought, too, based on their season statistics -- both KenPom and traditional. I was happy they got Wichita State instead of Pitt. Very loudly happy.

    This paragraph from Glockner's story is enlightening:

    (Along with Baker’s return from injury after missing 21 games, Cotton’s turnaround made Wichita State a much more capable perimeter shooting team than they appeared on paper — even after a 2-for-20 clankfest from the arc against Pitt two days earlier. That was despite them missing their best shooter, Evan Wissel, who was lost for the season in December to a broken finger.)
    The team GU played wasn't exactly the same team that put up average to below average offensive numbers during the season. That, and they played above their heads against GU.

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    "Nine possessions. 23 points. A six-point deficit turned into a seven-point lead in just over seven minutes. The opponent, the top-ranked team in the land, had scored 1.25 points per possession during the surge, a figure that would have led Division I for the season. The Zags didn’t choke. They were beaten by one of the greatest stretches of clutch offense we’ll ever see.

    There’s no shame in that. The only shame is Wichita State didn’t get enough credit for it at the time. Maybe the Shockers will now."

    They played there best, we played not horribly. They won and went on to win two more and reached the Final 4. No shame losing to a team like that regardless of expectations.
    Go Zags!!!

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    The article didn't mention Gary Bell's injury....our best perimeter defender.
    Go Zags!!!

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    "The Zags didn't choke. They were beaten by one of the greatest stretches of clutch offense we’ll ever see."

    Some elite D would have, and should have, stopped that mess.

    Maybe a tactical timeout or two during this rare stretch of great offense to regroup, and perhaps mess up their rhythm? Something?

    If you believe this, then bad things simply happen to us....HOGWASH.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cggonzaga View Post
    Interesting take and yes WSU was hot as can be. What it failed to touch on was the poor defense being played by us in that same span. To me it was a combination of both and the perfect storm for the Shockers.
    It's true we played poor defense; but, even playing poor defense, the odds are mightily against a team scoring 23 points in 9 possessions. Even if we had 5 Dickaus on the floor, 23 points in 9 possessions would have been improbable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cjm720 View Post
    The article didn't mention Gary Bell's injury....our best perimeter defender.
    IMHO... That was the key.
    "And Morrison? He did what All-Americans do. He shot daggers in the daylight and stole a win." - Steve Kelley (Seattle Times)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyzaggy View Post
    "The Zags didn't choke. They were beaten by one of the greatest stretches of clutch offense we’ll ever see."

    Some elite D would have, and should have, stopped that mess.

    Maybe a tactical timeout or two during this rare stretch of great offense to regroup, and perhaps mess up their rhythm? Something?

    If you believe this, then bad things simply happen to us....HOGWASH.
    FireFew.com
    "And Morrison? He did what All-Americans do. He shot daggers in the daylight and stole a win." - Steve Kelley (Seattle Times)

    "Gonzaga is a special place, with special people!" - Dan Dickau #21

    Foo me once shame on you, Foo me twice shame on me.

    2012 Foostrodamus - Foothsayer of Death

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyzaggy View Post
    "The Zags didn't choke. They were beaten by one of the greatest stretches of clutch offense we’ll ever see."

    Some elite D would have, and should have, stopped that mess.

    Maybe a tactical timeout or two during this rare stretch of great offense to regroup, and perhaps mess up their rhythm? Something?

    If you believe this, then bad things simply happen to us....HOGWASH.
    Some elite D?

    The article specifically recalls the key (IMO) basket of the Shockers came on a ball that was barely being handled 4 ft beyond the 3pt line at the top of the key, one dribble "to steady it" and the launch of a rainbow that hit nothing but net. The guy was totally out of control and the ball went through - - it also mentions what the coach calls the "quickest catch and shoot" he has ever seen.

    I think it is one thing to say that the Shockers weren't lucky but were very talented, it is quite another to say that "elite D" would have stopped them. Would "elite D" been paired up with enough consistent offense to make that come back and put them up or do we now require elite D and elite O? Ohio State is known for "elite D" from their perimeter guards and they got sucked up also.

    The coaches have made some bad moves that have cost them games in the past and I don't like the passiveness that they tend to play late in the year but I refuse to assign blame on OUR team for every single loss, there are some games that a team is simply caught against steam roller and that is what happened here - as the article noted.
    Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.
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    I told you all right after the game when everyone was angry, hurt or just paralyzed from this loss, the odds of this happening were right at 1000 to 1.

    It was an absolute freakish occurence. We paly well enough to win. They just played better with their incredible shooting.
    Last edited by MDABE80; 06-20-2013 at 06:54 PM. Reason: off by a zero

  21. #21

    Default Wichita State

    Zags lost because they were not smart enough to change their defense ...IMO if a team scores on 9 straight possessions it is time to change from our zone ....Stockton was/is too small to challenge WSU's 3 point shooters ...

    On the other hand ....WSU was something like 4 for 24 from 3 in their previous game ...

    Over the last several years it seems like everyone we play goes off on 3 pointers ...I guess we play so much zone because our players are slow footed and not as athletic as some teams; but certainly not true of WCC opponents ...

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    That is one man's opinion. Too many times we have lost early by the 3 ball. Everybody has opinions, reasons, excuses,etc.

    Then the facts are facts. Last yr is behind us. Time to break through.
    Love the zags for life

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    As Dan Dickau has said on more than one occasion, great offense beats great defense.

    GU did call a timeout when Wichita got within 1 at 61-60, at the 4:23 mark, then came the tv timeout just under a minute later. So 2 timeouts during the run. After the tv t o, Wichita scored, then GU had the ball for like a minute and a half, due to 2 offensive rebounds resulting in 3 straight possessions (all misses); then Wichita made another 3. They had one more possession before the next GU t o.

    The idea that lack of timeouts to stop the run was a mistake by the coaches is not substantiated by a look at the ESPN play by play.

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    David -25


    If you have to have him out there make sure it's with 4 others who are long and can defend


    I blame coach for his stubbornness more than I blame the player. Give him a chance to succeed

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    Quote Originally Posted by cggonzaga View Post
    Interesting take and yes WSU was hot as can be. What it failed to touch on was the poor defense being played by us in that same span. To me it was a combination of both and the perfect storm for the Shockers.
    Poor defense isn't what I would call it. We had average perimeter (but its relative) defense and great interior D most of the year. But the fact that Bell got injured and was gone the 2nd half, our defense was mediocre and they got super hot.

    Plus we got flustered at the end with that critical inbounds flop. Momentum was lost and we ran out of time.

    Not once did this article mention we lost our defensive stopper and our starting SG for that 2nd half. Show me how many other teams (sans Louisville/Ware) that could survive that against WSU's hot hands?
    Last edited by Oregonzagnut; 06-20-2013 at 08:57 PM.
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