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Thread: Meech....

  1. #1
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    Default Meech....

    as of 11/28/2010... ranked 11th in the country in Assist to TO ratio per the NCAA.

    Just sayin'....
    "And Morrison? He did what All-Americans do. He shot daggers in the daylight and stole a win." - Steve Kelley (Seattle Times)

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    Way to go Meech!!!

    He's looked great so far this year and should continue to improve his decision making.

    Best play of the EWU game was the fast break, two handed dime from Meech to Bobby...was beautiful.

    Go Meech, Go Zags!!!

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    Meech is a very valuable asset to this team. He may not be a big scorer, but he brings many other good things.

    Speed, disruption and distraction of opponents, relentless movement on the court, aggressiveness, attitude, fearlessness. Those are heard to measure by stats.

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    Default Pride

    The good thing about guys like Meech, who have a lot of pride in what they do...is that they tend to turn criticisms, competition, and even disappointments into dedication and motivation rather well.

    His strengths and weaknesses have been discussed on this board ad nauseum, but there aren't many players, past or present, I have cheered for more to succeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LongIslandZagFan View Post
    as of 11/28/2010... ranked 11th in the country in Assist to TO ratio per the NCAA.

    Just sayin'....
    Sorry LI, but thats just a deceptive stat. While he doesn't turn the ball over, its because he has no opportunity to do so. He walks the ball up the court and hands it off to someone else to initiate the offense. Turnovers from good point guards often come from trying to make difficult passes to set up teammate for good shots which he just doesn't do. If he were serving the purpose of a point guard and still had that ratio, now ThAT would be impressive. The offense needs more from the position that is going to be its main initiator than "just don't screw up!". Thats how bad things have gotten, and thats a sad state.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GUDan07 View Post
    Sorry LI, but thats just a deceptive stat. While he doesn't turn the ball over, its because he has no opportunity to do so. He walks the ball up the court and hands it off to someone else to initiate the offense. Turnovers from good point guards often come from trying to make difficult passes to set up teammate for good shots which he just doesn't do. If he were serving the purpose of a point guard and still had that ratio, now ThAT would be impressive. The offense needs more from the position that is going to be its main initiator than "just don't screw up!". Thats how bad things have gotten, and thats a sad state.
    Respectfully disagree...it's an assist to turnover ratio. It would be one thing if he were only low in turnovers, but this stat is also representative of the fact that he is improving in his ability to get guys the ball in a position to score.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GUDan07 View Post
    He walks the ball up the court and hands it off to someone else to initiate the offense. .
    You may not have literally meant it that way, but I've never seen Meech walk anywhere on the court.

    He's on the move all the time, and that's one of the reasons he causes an opponent problems. And he makes a lot more plays than you give him credit for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GUDan07 View Post
    Sorry LI, but thats just a deceptive stat. While he doesn't turn the ball over, its because he has no opportunity to do so. He walks the ball up the court and hands it off to someone else to initiate the offense. Turnovers from good point guards often come from trying to make difficult passes to set up teammate for good shots which he just doesn't do. If he were serving the purpose of a point guard and still had that ratio, now ThAT would be impressive. The offense needs more from the position that is going to be its main initiator than "just don't screw up!". Thats how bad things have gotten, and thats a sad state.
    Sorry...but exactly as zagsfan24 says...you aren't understanding the term ratio here.


    Congrats Meech, that's quite an accomplishment. KEEP IT UP!!!!!!
    Allow myself to introduce....myself...

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    Meech is initiating the offense more often this year than he did last year. If you don't believe me, go back to last year's game tape. There's a big difference. He's not just flat out handing it off every possession like he did when Bouldin was around. A lot of Meech's assists so far this season have been to Steven Gray. Meech is averaging more APG this season.

    I think what's important to note is that Meech last season basically had a 1 to 1 assist to turnover ratio. He was more turnover prone last season - even when he had less responsibilities in terms of running the offense.

    Yes, in an ideal world I would like to see Meech get above 6 APG, but he is gradually improving. Especially the last couple of games.

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    I saw a few no-look passes last night from 3 rows up that I was impressed with. I think Meech's contribution is controlled by the coaching staff. He doesn't have the green light to shoot just yet it seems. He's getting better every game, every year.

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    Unhappy meech is the best

    clearly, meech is the best point guard we have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzdelmar View Post
    clearly, meech is the best point guard we have.
    True, but I was happy with Carter's contributions and improvements displayed last night. Indeed, it was against a lesser opponent, but what he really needed was to get a confidence boost to kick start him this season. He made several good passes, looked more in control with his play, and didn't appear to be as lost in the offense (although I did see some defensive lapses that weren't exploited by EWU that may have against a better team). These are all things he can build on, and hopefully he does just that.

    Oh, and kudos to Meech. Looks like his hard work is paying off. He's capable of hitting the three (albeit not consistently) which is keeping other teams more honest this year. I can remember two occasions last night that he drove to the hoop and kicked it out to the perimeter for an open shot. This is what we need from him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gozagswoohoo View Post
    Sorry...but exactly as zagsfan24 says...you aren't understanding the term ratio here.
    I assure you I have a very firm grasp on the concept of a ratio, and unless you look at the underlying figures, the ratio is meaningless. What if he had one turnover in the first game and never had another for the whole season. And lets also assume he averaged .5 assists a game for that same season. That would be an assist/TO ratio of something like 16.0. Would that be indicative of a good season? No. On the surface, the low turnovers look great, but its like the catcher in baseball that gets 3 steals in a season when the other team is sleeping and has a perfect average. It doesn't make him a good base-stealer. If Goodson were running the offense, that would be a remarkable number. As it stands, it comes off as looking for anyway possible to justify the job he's doing.

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    Meech at least has shown that he is coachable. After his 9 (?) rebound game he said that Few told him in to get in there and rebound. After one of the first games when he had several transition buckets and pushed tempo all game he said that he was encouraged to do so by Few. He brings defensive intensity/focus every game, which have kept Arop and Dower off of the floor for chunks of time this year. He also isn't a liablity when bringing the ball up the court- it seemed to me that K State trapped a lot more when Stockton was running the point. He also avoiding stupid fouls, for the most part. Each of these things is one less thing for the coach to worry about during a game and allows him to focus more on the X's and O's. I really feel like if the bigs didn't get abused down low in the two losses we wouldn't be so critical of Meech, as his assist/TO would be even better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GUDan07 View Post
    I assure you I have a very firm grasp on the concept of a ratio, and unless you look at the underlying figures, the ratio is meaningless. What if he had one turnover in the first game and never had another for the whole season. And lets also assume he averaged .5 assists a game for that same season. That would be an assist/TO ratio of something like 16.0. Would that be indicative of a good season? No. On the surface, the low turnovers look great, but its like the catcher in baseball that gets 3 steals in a season when the other team is sleeping and has a perfect average. It doesn't make him a good base-stealer. If Goodson were running the offense, that would be a remarkable number. As it stands, it comes off as looking for anyway possible to justify the job he's doing.
    I'm not trying to be a dick but is Meech really handing the ball off as much as he did last year? Last year, with Matt, it was terribly obvious but I have noticed that has gone down a TON.

    Obviously there are still plays where Steven is in control. Meech's first pass typically goes to Steven or to Rob (while Elias is out) but I have not noticed the dribble up the court, hand it off like we saw last year. I've noticed some nice drives and kicks, some nice, high post feeds. Overall, I've noticed improvements from him as a point guard.

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    This kid is a much better player than he was a year ago. He is taking better care of the ball and making fewer mistakes. He seems to be making better passes and shooting better, even if he still does not take a lot of shots.

    Let's just enjoy watching him grow and hope that the team around him improves as much as he does.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GUDan07 View Post
    I assure you I have a very firm grasp on the concept of a ratio, and unless you look at the underlying figures, the ratio is meaningless. What if he had one turnover in the first game and never had another for the whole season. And lets also assume he averaged .5 assists a game for that same season. That would be an assist/TO ratio of something like 16.0. Would that be indicative of a good season? No. On the surface, the low turnovers look great, but its like the catcher in baseball that gets 3 steals in a season when the other team is sleeping and has a perfect average. It doesn't make him a good base-stealer. If Goodson were running the offense, that would be a remarkable number. As it stands, it comes off as looking for anyway possible to justify the job he's doing.
    Yeah, well if my aunt had nuts, she'd be my uncle.








    Here's the thing. Since Meech has gotten here, all people have done was ***** and moan about him. Is he an all-american? No. Is he close? No. But how many D1 teams have an all-american PG? Like .333 percent or something like that, I don't know, I'm bad at percentages. But you know what I mean. But guess what we DO have? An (IMO) all-american SG in Steven Gray, and a HELL of a player in Elias Harris. How many teams have a one two punch of that caliber? I'm not saying you don't realize we have those guys, but the point I'm trying to make, is how many teams have as much as we do? Not that many. At all. Why can't we be pumped about what we DO have? It gets SOO old that the 'bashing' threads always out-number the 'praise' threads. Win or lose, people find something to hate on.

    Like I said, all people have ever done was complain about Meech. Yet....he has improved. He has improved that RATIO significantly since last season. We have ALWAYS known he wasn't going to go off and average 15 ppg, so what is the next best thing?? How about increasing assists, and minimizing turnovers?? And that's what he has done.
    Allow myself to introduce....myself...

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    Quote Originally Posted by GUDan07 View Post
    I assure you I have a very firm grasp on the concept of a ratio, and unless you look at the underlying figures, the ratio is meaningless. What if he had one turnover in the first game and never had another for the whole season. And lets also assume he averaged .5 assists a game for that same season. That would be an assist/TO ratio of something like 16.0. Would that be indicative of a good season? No. On the surface, the low turnovers look great, but its like the catcher in baseball that gets 3 steals in a season when the other team is sleeping and has a perfect average. It doesn't make him a good base-stealer. If Goodson were running the offense, that would be a remarkable number. As it stands, it comes off as looking for anyway possible to justify the job he's doing.
    Umm... not sure you do.

    If Meech continues at his current pace he will double his total assists for the season. As it is he is 1/3rd the way to last year's total in 6 games. take out the KSU game and his APG goes up to 4.4 which would put him the top 100 in the country. Meech has hit 6 assists twice and 4 twice. Southern actually brings his average down as he only played 18 minutes.

    Honestly... you are just plain wrong.
    "And Morrison? He did what All-Americans do. He shot daggers in the daylight and stole a win." - Steve Kelley (Seattle Times)

    "Gonzaga is a special place, with special people!" - Dan Dickau #21

    Foo me once shame on you, Foo me twice shame on me.

    2012 Foostrodamus - Foothsayer of Death

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    More info:

    Average everything out to a 40 minute game and Meech would be at 5.7 APG and .5 TOs. BTW he has played 155 minutes to this point or about 25 minutes a game.

    Would you like more information to show you how you are wrong? Fact of the matter is that you have absolutely no evidence whatsoever to substantiate your claims... so in the end it comes down to the fact that you just plain don't like him.
    "And Morrison? He did what All-Americans do. He shot daggers in the daylight and stole a win." - Steve Kelley (Seattle Times)

    "Gonzaga is a special place, with special people!" - Dan Dickau #21

    Foo me once shame on you, Foo me twice shame on me.

    2012 Foostrodamus - Foothsayer of Death

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by GUDan07 View Post
    Sorry LI, but thats just a deceptive stat. While he doesn't turn the ball over, its because he has no opportunity to do so. He walks the ball up the court and hands it off to someone else to initiate the offense. Turnovers from good point guards often come from trying to make difficult passes to set up teammate for good shots which he just doesn't do. If he were serving the purpose of a point guard and still had that ratio, now ThAT would be impressive. The offense needs more from the position that is going to be its main initiator than "just don't screw up!". Thats how bad things have gotten, and thats a sad state.
    3.7 assists per game translate to 22 assists with only 4 turnovers. He is second on the team in assists to Gray. He has 7+ minutes less than Gray, and averaging less than one TO a game is outstanding. Period.

    The offense needs more from the position that is going to be its main initiator than "just don't screw up!".
    Meech has been a contributor in all of GU's wins, and not as a warm body. If he continues to bring what he has brought so far, he should be considered one of the best Defensive PG in GU history and one of the better PG in the country. And Again. Period.
    ----
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongIslandZagFan View Post
    More info:

    Average everything out to a 40 minute game and Meech would be at 5.7 APG and .5 TOs. BTW he has played 155 minutes to this point or about 25 minutes a game.

    Would you like more information to show you how you are wrong? Fact of the matter is that you have absolutely no evidence whatsoever to substantiate your claims... so in the end it comes down to the fact that you just plain don't like him.
    LIZF, I truly think you don't get it. I'll simplify for you.

    Meech's A-T ratio is similar to a chicken crossing the road in North Dakota. He might make it across a few times, but does that make him a successful chicken? Could he do that same thing in New York? Or, how about on the Autobahn!?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gozagswoohoo View Post
    Here's the thing. Since Meech has gotten here, all people have done was ***** and moan about him. Is he an all-american? No. Is he close? No. But how many D1 teams have an all-american PG? Like .333 percent or something like that, I don't know, I'm bad at percentages. But you know what I mean. But guess what we DO have? An (IMO) all-american SG in Steven Gray, and a HELL of a player in Elias Harris. How many teams have a one two punch of that caliber? I'm not saying you don't realize we have those guys, but the point I'm trying to make, is how many teams have as much as we do? Not that many. At all. Why can't we be pumped about what we DO have? It gets SOO old that the 'bashing' threads always out-number the 'praise' threads. Win or lose, people find something to hate on.
    Good point! I think we were spoiled by 10 years of above average point guards and after that long, it just becomes the normal expectation even though it may be unrealistic at this point. While it is nice to have Gray and Harris as our 1-2 punch, even the past years when we had great point guards we usually had a 1-2 punch also

  23. #23
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    Default Stats.

    For point guards that have played a minimum of 5 games Meech is tied with two others for 16th in NCAA.

    I know it is Meechs fault for the way they keep stats but until they change this stat to measure how "fans" feel about Meech's A/T ratio he will remain where he is among the leaders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BroncoZAG615 View Post
    LIZF, I truly think you don't get it. I'll simplify for you.

    Meech's A-T ratio is similar to a chicken crossing the road in North Dakota. He might make it across a few times, but does that make him a successful chicken? Could he do that same thing in New York? Or, how about on the Autobahn!?
    Is your point that Meech doesn't make difficult assists, so his success in not mucking up easy plays isn't to be lauded? I see that ratio as a good thing, even if the sample set is "simple plays." Yes, perhaps it is a reflection of Meech's limitations as a playmaker, but it is also a sign that he recognizes those weaknesses and isn't trying to force things.
    “We’re not here as a %&#* courtesy!" - Coach Few

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    Quote Originally Posted by GUDan07 View Post
    What if he had one turnover in the first game and never had another for the whole season.
    Sounds like a pretty good season to me

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