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Thread: Stockton Was Terrific at the HOF Induction Ceremony

  1. #26
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  2. #27
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  3. #28
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    Great speech. Too bad he had to share the night with Jordan

  4. #29
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    Default put me down as a jordan critic

    I finally listened to his speech after reading several posts on this thread.

    For a few hundred bucks he could have emptied that bile at a psychologists office, gotten it out, and then appeared at the HOF ceremony and shown much more class.

    Or, failing that, just bought a speech and read it. Instead he apparently decided to give the raspberry to all those meaningless folks who tried to stop him in his quest. Just standing there was evidence they were wrong. Clearly.

    By naming these folks MJ not only compounded the error but was a reflection on his own smallness as a man unable to move on, even as someone who is considered to be the best of the best. He should have thanked his detractors and then not named them if he wanted to get even, imo.

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    I liked Jordan's speech. OK, maybe "like" is the wrong word. How about I "accept" it. It was extremely awkward and sinister at times but at least he was honest. He's no ordinary superstar - he's the best to ever play the game and apparently it's what he sought to be from a very young age and he despised anyone doubting him or taking credit for "his" achievements. It was patholological, his obsession with winning and being recognized as the greatest. He achieved so much he was constantly looking for motivation and found it in digs and challenges real and imagined. Yes, he's a grating egomaniac, but I don't know that someone can achieve that level of success without being an egomaniac or becoming one. It wasn't the prettiest speech and it's not a rhetorical model you'd want most folks to follow, but he did answer the question, "What makes Michael Jordan tick?"

    http://www.nba.com/video/channels/ha...an_speech.nba/

    And then there's this viewpoint, which also has its ring of truth:
    http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slu...yhoo&type=lgns
    Last edited by FuManShoes; 09-13-2009 at 10:51 PM.
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  6. #31
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    Default I heard a bit of Jim Rome, today, Fu

    and he sort of echoed your sentiments. He didn't like MJ's speech but said it was vintage Jordan.

    To me, this means the man is petty and small all of the time, instead of using the forces of tremendous talent, savvy and focus to use all those little slights to spurn him to greater heights ON the floor(whatever works), then let them go when the game is over.

    Certainly when the season and career are over. But No.

    Apparently MJ is always ON. Which, if that is the case, will make him always act upset about "slights," real & imagined, forever ticked at someone and always complaining about something.

    That's no way to live, imo. Certainly not the right note to ring on the way out, either.

    A fabulously gifted, famous, miserable rich guy going around acting like a victim. Of what ?

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by FuManShoes View Post
    He's no ordinary superstar - he's the best to ever play the game and apparently it's what he sought to be from a very young age and he despised anyone doubting him or taking credit for "his" achievements.
    I have to comment that a guy like Magic Johnson is within shouting distance in terms of basketball greatness and he seems to have the world class personality to go with his skills.

    More than one way to skin a cat, I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gamagin View Post
    and he sort of echoed your sentiments. He didn't like MJ's speech but said it was vintage Jordan.

    To me, this means the man is petty and small all of the time, instead of using the forces of tremendous talent, savvy and focus to use all those little slights to spurn him to greater heights ON the floor(whatever works), then let them go when the game is over.

    Certainly when the season and career are over. But No.

    Apparently MJ is always ON. Which, if that is the case, will make him always act upset about "slights," real & imagined, forever ticked at someone and always complaining about something.

    That's no way to live, imo. Certainly not the right note to ring on the way out, either.

    A fabulously gifted, famous, miserable rich guy going around acting like a victim. Of what ?
    The problem with this characterization is that is ignores what it is that made MJ excel. His constant and relentless drive is what made him the best. If he was at all capable of being content, he never would have been MJ.
    'I found it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay… small acts of kindness and love.'
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  9. #34
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    Default kitz

    Quote Originally Posted by kitzbuel View Post
    The problem with this characterization is that is ignores what it is that made MJ excel. His constant and relentless drive is what made him the best. If he was at all capable of being content, he never would have been MJ.
    The point to me is whether a HOF acceptance speech is the proper time and place for MJ, or anyone else, to catalogue & name everyone who ever hurt him or his feelings. I would say it is not. How MJ got into the HOF is a separate matter, imo. I also disagree that he needs to remain a malcontent five years after he stopped playing the game, which was my point.

    and despite becoming the brand name for a dozen or so big companies, and all the hype tht went with it, he could not have put those six rings on his fingers without the rest of the team and the organization. No matter how much of a malcontent he was.

    Look back to the pre-championship seasons when MJ tried to win it himself and you will see it didn't work, even though he probably came closer than any other one man show in the NBA.

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    Thumbs up Observations of John Stockton

    The two posts below are from a Dec 2010 thread discussion of David Stockton; 2wiceright and gamagin were generous with their time and wrote some detailed observations of the young John Stockton. . .

    I thought it was fitting to add them to the HOF induction thread.
    Last edited by RenoZag; 12-23-2010 at 08:48 PM.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by SunDevilGolfZag View Post
    Here is what I would like to hear from someone who has actual knowledge: John Stockton was "too small" for the Pac-10 (Raveling regretted that conclusion later). I have heard that John got a little bit better every year in college. I personally saw all of his home games when he was a senior but saw none before that. God he was good as a senior! How much better did he get every year from frosh to senior? Was he much better as a freshman/sophmore than David is now? If David puts on 20 lbs of muscle in the next two years and keeps improving like his dad did, will David also be an elite point guard? I'd like to hear some perspective from one of the old Dogs on this board who has a legitmate opinion either way -- I don't want to hear blah blah blah from someone who really doesn't know. My instincts are telling me this is a good investment.
    I played with John at Prep. I made varsity with five others sophmore year/ but he was a year behind us (I graduated in '79, he in '80). The next year he too made varsity at G-Prep as a sophmore, but like a said, always a year behind the rest of us. John didn't get much playing time until late Sophmore year. As a sophmore I remember him asking me right before final cuts if I thought he'd make it this year on the team and I told him yes, though I had big doubts because of his size. He was much smaller until Late in Junior year and Senior year. Even back then, we all played year round, difference is without access to gyms we often had to break into places like the Y or sneak into G.U. for pickup games.
    Late in (my) junior year John got his first big break and finally got the start over a senior with a bad attitude. I didn't realize it at the time, but that was huge for us, because by the end of his soph. year we were all comfortable with him and were favorites to win city and ranked in state the next year (My senior). As a junior John started point with four of us Seniors. Every day of his life it was amazing how much he improved (we all practiced as much as we could but he truly went from a runt to an equal in a short amount of time). I didn't think of him as special at the time (when we were Seniors and he a Junior). And any of us would have picked one of two other guys on our team to play pro or even Div. 1 ball - not thinking Johnny even had a chance mostly cause of his size (about 5' 10" and Davids Body type).
    That year me, him, and one other forward averaged between 8- 12 points a game. Our two big time scorers could easily put up twenty five points or more in a given night (one of those two came in second for point total leaders in the GSL that year), and we won city, districts, and lost in a fluke game in single elimination(back then) in Reginals to Pasco in a last fluke shot type of game.
    The year after I graduated we came and watched Johnny play often and to show you how much he was improving He was the GSL leading scorer his senior year. (I forgot to mention before graduating it became apparent how many assists he was accumulating, but none of us had any inkling of what was to come). So his Senior year he was the stud, him and Steve Brown. John was the complete package- scoring and assist champ. By then he was about 6'0 and would maybe gain an inch or two at GU.
    In college I played less ball (had some offers) but at 6'3 with an afro no matter how high I could jump I would usually end up in the bleachers at 180. I still got a chance to play with John a couple times his freshman and Junior year and as a defensive "expert" I wanted to see if I could keep up with him. He was a whole different player by then. He put on some weight and his speed was incredible. John and I even ran bloomsday his soph year at GU. I went to state in track in high school and was in good running shape but he had no problem keeping up with me. In fact at the top of doomsday hill, he stopped to throw up and as another friend did that the year before who I ran with I had put in too much time training to end up not finishing. What blew me away I finished in 46:20 and when I looked in the paper he was right behind me and only lost a minute or so off his time! His whole style of basketball changed when we went back east in AAU and played the Chicago All-Stars. I tried covering Isaiha Thomas, but he had a style we all never saw before - sprinting up the court like Meech but in control like David. From then on he was a different player.
    When John made the NBA, not that we all weren't rooting for him- in fact we would send him letters but really couldn't fathom him being more than a bench player (and neither could he- it turns out) but he had the courage to prove everyone, especially himself wrong.
    John had better size and was stronger than his son at the same time all those years ago. I think David, like his dad, could surprise everyone in a short time- it's just my opinion, as well as that of his older brother Steve, they don't expect that much this early from him ( the rest is up for argument on the board).
    On a side not, Johns older brother Steve was a lot like John in a lot of ways. When all us Sophmores made varsity early, some seniors- including Steve got cut from the team. Talk about a late bloomer- watching him in pickup games against John a few years later I could't for the life of me tell who was better- John or Steven. Steve too was a real late bloomer and became "that good"!!! By the way, it was Fitz's connections with Raveling that got John a look at the Olympic team that year w/Barkley, etc. John should have been on that team...Hopefully David will get a quick growth spurt and strengthen up, past that with his Dad's genes there's no telling how good he "could" be in a year or two (it also would do wonders with his shot, and the rest of his game)...

  12. #37
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    Default time will tell re: DS

    Quote Originally Posted by SunDevilGolfZag View Post
    Here is what I would like to hear from someone who has actual knowledge: John Stockton was "too small" for the Pac-10 (Raveling regretted that conclusion later). I have heard that John got a little bit better every year in college. I personally saw all of his home games when he was a senior but saw none before that. God he was good as a senior! How much better did he get every year from frosh to senior? Was he much better as a freshman/sophmore than David is now? If David puts on 20 lbs of muscle in the next two years and keeps improving like his dad did, will David also be an elite point guard? I'd like to hear some perspective from one of the old Dogs on this board who has a legitmate opinion either way -- I don't want to hear blah blah blah from someone who really doesn't know. My instincts are telling me this is a good investment.
    No one knew how far JS was going to go, least of all JS. I thought, and told his dad several times, I thought he should have played baseball, given his great speed and IQ as a basketball player at Prep & later GU. SO what did I know ?

    His dad told me JS planned out his pro career as if he was only likely to remain in the bigs for a season or two (I think he had a 2 year contract, but don't remember for sure). That is, he lived like he was in poverty, saved his signing bonus and salary checks for most of those early years, lived on the cheap, figuring he could compile a nest egg for when the bubble burst and he would have to return to the real world.

    Of course it never did happen and therein lies the tale, and I posit, the question you pose: what about David ? Can lightning strike twice in this family ? I don't know.

    To me DS shows all the IQ and everything else I saw w/JS at that age. But JS wasn't playing against this quality opponents DS is, nor in arenas & on TV in front of the whole world. JS saw a spotlight or two, in his final year, like the tourney in Oregon, at which he gained a lot of national attention, as I recall.

    So it's hard to compare, in fairness, the son with the dad. David's strengths and weaknesses, along with all our zags, are and will be scrutinized all four of his years. On a national level many times and in the WCC every game.

    The difference to me, however, between David becoming a college starter, much less a force as a p.g., is how hard he is willing to work to compensate for his many physical disadvantages over the next four years.

    and of course, the incredible competition on the Zag roster, now and on its way, has no intention of stepping aside, nor should they, for DS. The list of logical obstacles this kid faces goes on forever.

    So what "might" happen to take DS to another level ?

    This:

    JS was famous for working harder, longer and with more grit and determination than anyone on the Zag or Jazz teams for all of the years he was in uniform: for over two decades.

    He is still famous, to this day, for wearing out his opponents in pickup ball. He is relentless. He is nasty (focused) and he is uncompromising, as if the world depended not just on the game at hand, but every nuanced move, or call, or movement or decision. It started when he was in grade school challenging his older brother and has never let up, his dad told me some time ago. He just wore.opponents.down. Stepped right over their exhausted carcasses.

    I had friends & relatives, and school mates of his who would say JS would stop a pickup game on the street or in a gym and argue for minutes (or as long as it took) rather than concede a foul, or that he had fouled, or WHATEVER might be considered giving up an advantage, no matter how slight. Such was his determination. Other worldly. Relentless.

    re David. I don't know. I don't know about his hunger. If he is that intense. I don't know about his strength and resolve. His mindset. How tough he really is. I only know what I see. And it is very interesting. Brimming with possibilities. He has his dad's court vision and sense of taking charge and pressing the ball and the game, seemingly ready and even eager to push the other team up several notches quickly.

    I also know he's already got the best role model, and I would think, mentor, for exactly his circumstance in the basketball world. His dad.

    But none of that means anything unless he puts in a superhuman amount of time, sweat and focus to just give himself a chance at the immediate challenge in front of him: to gain additional p.t. this season with the Zags over other teammates who want it just as badly as he does.

    Time will tell. I'm not willing to count him out. But I'm not willing to seat any other Zag, either, until he keeps demonstrating he makes the team better with the time he has earned, and therefore deserves more.

    That's a long ways from the great career of JS. But, otoh, it is exactly where JS began his climb, too, way back when. JS's grandfather & DS's great grandfather, Houston Stockton, was a very famous Zag football star.

    So there is Something in the Stockton genes and the GU history that shouldn't be ignored.

    The good news is we lucky fans get to watch a potentially great back story here, at the very least. DS contributes to the continued success of the GU program, just like his dad. Or, at best, we might see a young undersized kid light up the world like his dad did many years ago.

    I'm happy either way.
    Go TEAM Zags !

    "John Stockton is one of the true marvels, not just of basketball, or in America, but in the history of Western Civilization!”
    Tom Hammond: “Wow, that’s a pretty strong statement. I guess I don’t have a good handle on world history.”
    Bill: “Well Tom, that’s because you didn’t go to UCLA." - Bill Walton

  13. #38
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    The two posts above are from a Dec 2010 thread discussion of David Stockton; 2wiceright and gamagin were generous with their time and wrote some detailed observations of the young John Stockton. . .

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