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Zag4Hire
02-10-2008, 04:01 PM
I know there are about a million threads on this situation by I didn't see any off hand. Question: What is the deal with Heytvelt? Distracted? Hurt? Sick? Family situation? Seriously, what's the deal? It's gotten to the point when I rather see Kuso on the court because I know the ball will be forced into Heytvelt, 2 or 3 dribbles, turn and shoot. The great thing was last year those shots would fall or at least look like a good take. Now they look like chuck shots from 10 feet. I am not a coach but is his shot off...I am not seeing much rotation, kinda like when I put one up in the air. Anybody have the real scoop or some good insight. :confused:

BobZag
02-10-2008, 04:40 PM
9 points and 4 boards in 12 minutes. Sure he isn't all the way back. But let's keep some perspective. Patience, young Sywalker.

Zag4Hire
02-10-2008, 04:45 PM
9 points and 4 boards in 12 minutes. Sure he isn't all the way back. But let's keep some perspective. Patience, young Sywalker.

Thanks Bob. You mention all the way back? So it is the injury or the bronchitis? If it is something to be "back" from, why not rest him up and so forth, get him healthy during this coming week?

hockeyzag
02-10-2008, 05:24 PM
I don't see why we should be patient with him? He has had more than enough time to get back to form. He can play like an all american, we've all seen it. Where did it go?? An injury shouldn't take away from that kind of skill. It shouldn't take away from wanting to play hard either.

I don't want to be hard on him because I know in the past year his life has been very difficult, but the old Josh just doesn't seem to be playing right now. I hope he isn't burned out, and I hope after a long off season he can concentrate on working back toward being the dominant player he knows he can be.

I just don't see it happening this season, if it was going to happen it would have happened by now. Looks like we are going to have to depend on Kuso and Sacre.

btzag
02-10-2008, 06:20 PM
Depend on Kuso and Sacre?!! Everybody who thinks this way is way off base and I for one am tired off hearing it on this board. GU was in SERIOUS trouble the first half of the season without Josh and then he comes back and people are ready to write him off because he's not immediately a 1st team AA! Josh is still the best big man GU has, even at 50%, which is what he has been playing at. Sacre is nowhere near ready this year and Kuso is effective only if he plays at 150% every second on the court...AND stays out of foul trouble. Josh is still averaging 11.2 pts and 5.3 boards per game while Kuso/Sacre combined are at 9.5 and 6.3. Please get some perspective people!

BroncoZAG615
02-10-2008, 06:31 PM
Serious trouble without Josh?

I agree this team is better with a 100% Josh, but to say we were in serious trouble is slightly off base. Our two good wins against UConn and St. Joes came without Josh. Since then we haven't had too much to hang our hats on. There are boatloads of Josh threads throughout these boards and although we didn't expect him to play like an AA right away, we expected more than what we have now.

Yes, Josh scores more than Kuso and Sacre but takes more shots and at some points become as much of a liability on offense as the other two. Lazy screens, ill advised three point shots and floating around have hurt the offensive flow.

I just need the fire and enthusiasm that we saw last year. Seeing past highlights of him from last year to this year really feels like I'm watching someone else. You said Kuso is only good at 150%...could you imagine if Josh was anywhere near there? My gut tells me he will get there by years end. I really hope he does.

ebayzagfan
02-10-2008, 06:33 PM
I've been critical of Josh the past couple of weeks on these boards. I was able to see the Pepperdine game in person and thought he showed more effort and better results than he has in several games. You do get a different perspective in person than you do watching from the higher overhead angle of the TV coverage. And, let's face it, it was Pepperdine and not St Marys or Memphis. He needs to use his size more to his advantage; he hasn't been able to establish and hold inside position anymore. I'm hopeful that he's finally "bottomed out" and is on the way to back to being the old Josh. If we could get him back to contributing about 15 pts and 8 boards a night, we could make some noise in March.

jim77
02-10-2008, 06:46 PM
Patience......tommorrow is another game. GO JOSH!

spudzag
02-10-2008, 06:55 PM
I'm sure Josh is feeling the pressure and likely sees his dreams slipping away. He seems to be making modest progress but Pepperdine is so weak inside the game didn't tell us much.

Zag4Hire
02-10-2008, 07:08 PM
I support Josh and I hope he gets his game back in the worst way and helps lead GU in the tourney. But I just feel there is some behind-the-scenes happenings because the stories seem to keep coming out mixed.

Bottom Line: If he is still feeling the ill effects of bronchitis or his foot is bothering him, let him rehab and get better for the tough stretch. If there is something else going on (personal issues), maybe for the best for him and GU he should seek guidance on how to resolve those issues. If none of those are the case, then his situation needs to be evaluated about how he helps this team. That's all.

btzag
02-10-2008, 07:31 PM
First off, I do not believe Heytvelt will 'be back' this year and satisfy us Zag fans with his best play such as the first half of last year. Not going to happen, period. He is not there physically or mentally and is not going to just 'find it' somewhere. Not in WCC regular season, not WCC post season, nor NCAA tourney time. He needs the offseason to get strong and ready for the grind of the season and that is just the way it is. It is just my opinion that some fans expectations are not going to be met at all this year regarding Josh and we are going to see this same thread week after week after week until the season is over.

My take is to accept that and just hope that he can improve some and start to bring it on a more consistent basis. Broncozag, I firmly, emphatically believe that the Zags would not have made the tourney this year without Heytvelt returning. He is our only high-level post player on the roster this year. No he does not give effort like Kuso, but every player is different and you can't expect everyone to play like Kuso or Pendo. Both are undersized for their positions and HAVE to or they would not have schollys at GU. Sacre will be high level maybe next year or his Junior year but he's not there this year, but truly there are only a handful of Frosh who you can say that about.

I really am a fan of all three bigs and just feel expectations need to be adjusted on Josh this year or you will be sorely disappointed game after game.

SteeleMan
02-10-2008, 07:51 PM
I don't know anything, but an observation is that the game has past Josh by. Due to injury and indiscretion, the time away from the court has made it hard for him to keep up. Maybe the game is faster? Maybe his teammates haven't fully welcomed him back? Maybe he's going through some personal issues? He doesn't seem to be having very much fun and looks unhappy. It's been discussed here that Josh is more comfortable shooting with his front to the basket. Maybe he's being asked to do things that he doesn't like to do, like posting up. He doesn't seem to have the same athleticism that he once did, this due to injury and his time off?

I do think that he's a very important part of the team. And that he offers a threat that any opponent will have to change things up due to him. It is my hope that when his career is done at Gonzaga that it can be looked at as a success story.

roxdoc
02-10-2008, 09:27 PM
"My take is to accept that and just hope that he can improve some and start to bring it on a more consistent basis."

Could not agree more

"It is just my opinion that some fans expectations are not going to be met at all this year regarding Josh and we are going to see this same thread week after week after week until the season is over".

Absolutely

Zag79
02-10-2008, 10:13 PM
this ongoing posting about JH and MD is grossly played out. josh isnt himself, obviously. hes not healthy and its prolonging his comeback. as far as metnal he is in it and it shows when hes on the bench cheering. he is having a hard time rebounding, and is doing layups when we all know damn well he would normally dunk it. that is from being closer to 60% than 100%. we have to get to where want to be with or without him and i for one know it will take time to get him back to 100%. give it a rest.


9 points and 4 boards in 12 minutes. Sure he isn't all the way back. But let's keep some perspective. Patience, young Sywalker.

i pointed this out last night. i hope BZ typing it will open more eyes.

haMarlin
02-11-2008, 04:45 AM
Watch his face. The expression on his face says he's out of it, almost upset.

Why?

Watch the games. I haven't seen him jump this year. Not like last year. He hasn't had an aggressive "flying through the rafters" rebound, or a skying slam yet.

He isn't comfortable with his foot yet. It may take the summer to get back to "Josh version '06".

thickman1
02-11-2008, 07:56 AM
Watch his face. The expression on his face says he's out of it, almost upset.

Why?

Watch the games. I haven't seen him jump this year. Not like last year. He hasn't had an aggressive "flying through the rafters" rebound, or a skying slam yet.

He isn't comfortable with his foot yet. It may take the summer to get back to "Josh version '06".

I missed most of the 1st half of the Pepp game but made a point to watch Josh on the bench during the second half. For the first 5-6 minutes of the half - when we scored all those points and really pulled away - you would have thought Josh was asleep on the bench. He didn't cheer on any of GU's scoring possessions. He looked totally disconnected.

tyra
02-11-2008, 08:39 AM
I'm no expert but it seems a statement of the obvious that Josh won't leave early this year for the NBA. So, the good news is we get him back next year! And for now, I'm going to assume that he has a health issue and will continue to get stronger and work harder and will be an important part of this team not just for the balance of this year but ALSO next year! We win!

deathchina
02-11-2008, 09:03 AM
Looking over his career gamestats, I see that Josh has only scored 20 or more points 5 times, and had 6 double doubles (ten or more points and rebounds) in his career. For comparison, Tyler Hansbrough has 28 double doubles in his career, and scored 20 or more points 44 times. I don't know why everyone was/is expecting to be a complete beast, even IF he becomes completely healthy. Obviously something is bothering him right now, but he isn't going to dominate night in and night out under the best of circumstances. Let's just hope he regains his explosiveness so he can finish around the hoop and rebound out of his space.

Reborn
02-11-2008, 09:10 AM
The thing about "come backs" is that one can never predict the speed of the recovery. Josh's seems slow, and of course slower then we all would like to see. But, he has had many difficulties to overcome, starting with the emotional recovery from all that went down last year. Throw in the broken foot and bronchitis, and his weight loss and you have a lot. Wow. The important thing is that he is playing less, and I think that is good. He hasn't performed at the 5 in a way that we need a five to play. Kuso IS doing better. However, I think Josh is and can be a GREAT role player the rest of the way, and come and give us 15 minutes of 100% play. If he can't give 100% then he really shouldn't be playing that much.

The better Josh plays, and the more minutes he can play at 100% will certainly help the Zags. I believe he's better then Sacre at the back up spot, but giving Sacre a few minutes like Few did last game seemed very good. Play the back ups in short stints. It really seemed to work on Saturday.

I felt Josh looked much better Saturday. His energy seemed up. He hustled more. Maybe playing in shorter stretches will really help him. He looks very self conscience and uncomfortable a lot of the time. He needs to get over this by not focussing on himself, but by focussing on playing all out, 100% of the time. Things are just not seeming instinctive to him. But he's going to get better. I do believe that. He'll improve each now, and each week. We do have 4 weeks left. That's quite a bit of time.

BobZag
02-11-2008, 09:10 AM
I don't see why we should be patient with him? He has had more than enough time to get back to form. He can play like an all american, we've all seen it. Where did it go?? An injury shouldn't take away from that kind of skill. It shouldn't take away from wanting to play hard either.

I don't want to be hard on him because I know in the past year his life has been very difficult, but the old Josh just doesn't seem to be playing right now. I hope he isn't burned out, and I hope after a long off season he can concentrate on working back toward being the dominant player he knows he can be.

I just don't see it happening this season, if it was going to happen it would have happened by now. Looks like we are going to have to depend on Kuso and Sacre.

Okay, don't be patient. Whatever.

finechina2003
02-11-2008, 09:16 AM
I don't know why everyone was/is expecting to be a complete beast

I can tell you why ... because we have seen firsthand the incredible talent and ability that Josh has displayed in the past. With that said, while we are frustrated with Josh's play, his frustration must be much, much greater! Instead of overanalyzing this situation, I have decided to cheer Josh on and hope for as much improvement as possible during the rest of this season and am confident that the offseason will be just what the doctor ordered for next season.

BobZag
02-11-2008, 09:17 AM
Haven't seen so many "behind the grassy knoll" conspiracy theories since JFK was shot.

Actually, 9 points in 7 minutes. He didn't attempt a shot in 2nd-half. I'm sure there is a reason encrypted in the portrait of Mona Lisa or something.

gamagin
02-11-2008, 09:30 AM
When Joshy comes back to play again
Hurrah! Hurrah!
We'll give him a hearty welcome then
Hurrah! Hurrah!
The Kennel will cheer and the men will shout
The bomb squad they will all turn out
And we'll shout YAY ! when Joshy comes bounding home.

The St. Al's bells will peal with joy
Hurrah! Hurrah!
To welcome home our healthy boy,
Hurrah! Hurrah!
The campus lads and lassies say
With roses they will strew the way,
And we'll all shout YAY ! when Joshy comes bounding home.

Get ready for the Jubilee,
Hurrah! Hurrah!
We'll give the big guy three times three,
Hurrah! Hurrah!
The laurel wreath is ready now
To place upon his troubled brow
And we'll all shout YAY ! when Joshy comes bounding home.

Let love and friendship on that day,
Hurrah, hurrah!
Their choicest pleasures then display,
Hurrah, hurrah!
And let each one perform some part,
To fill with joy the warrior's heart,
And we'll all shout YAY ! when Joshy comes bounding home.

zaguarxj
02-11-2008, 09:37 AM
Haven't seen so many "behind the grassy knoll" conspiracy theories since JFK was shot.

Actually, 9 points in 7 minutes. He didn't attempt a shot in 2nd-half. I'm sure there is a reason encrypted in the portrait of Mona Lisa or something.

Let's get rational here. This is clearly the result of an alien abduction, not some silly Renaissance conspiracy. The Zorg confederacy has big money riding on NCAA basketball games...

deathchina
02-11-2008, 01:13 PM
"I can tell you why ... because we have seen firsthand the incredible talent and ability that Josh has displayed in the past."

I'm not saying he isn't talented. But I no longer expect him to play to the full potential of his abilities.

Zerogame
02-11-2008, 02:28 PM
It seems to me Josh is being trippled team on the inside each and everytime he gets the ball. Once the outside shots start dropping for our guards/forwards at a better clip, he will have a little more room to maneuver. Then the confidence returns, Superman comes crashing out of the phonebooth, all h###l breaks loose!

Zag4Hire
02-11-2008, 08:00 PM
Haven't seen so many "behind the grassy knoll" conspiracy theories since JFK was shot.

Actually, 9 points in 7 minutes. He didn't attempt a shot in 2nd-half. I'm sure there is a reason encrypted in the portrait of Mona Lisa or something.

It's not about the sheet he is putting up. An outsider could say, "What does Sorenson bring to the table. He never plays." He brings a ton to the table. I haven't seen the Josh, pre-incident, in pretty much any game this year except tonight. He was hustling back on defense, getting angry, and getting into it with the players in the post. The one where he went up and you could see it in his face that he wanted the bucket and got it then hurried back to swat to force the ball out of bounds is a great sign. Dr. Krause was yelling encouragement and you knew he was getting back into the mold. Not to Hallmark or after school special it up, but you should always expect great things from great players. The Heytvelt that had monster games in the past were not just isolated games. I want him to get into it and make this GU squad better. He showed me tonight and I hope he builds off of it. GO GU!