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mendiant
02-05-2008, 05:43 PM
My hope for this team is that our freshman will become team members who really buy into the program...

not because GU is a place where their "talents" are best show cased here and the playing time is better than elsewhere...

but becuase they believe...

they believe in Pendo, and Pargo, and Josh...all of our honored upperclassmen...and the torch they carry that is Gonzaga Basketball.

Once these guys get on board with what this program is all about, I believe that this team will be unstoppable.

I hope to see the "freshman class of 2007-2008" mentality abolished and replaced with the Zag Mentality....

If you want a final four or a national championship boys, you NEED to understand...

ANY success you have, is built on the shoulders of the ignored and under-rated recruit who got us here to start.

The only reason you are here, is because of the Santagelos', the Calvarys, the Stocktons', and the Morrisons...along with a mighty host of others...

If the freshmen choose not to honor these men......

mendiant

El Voce
02-05-2008, 06:01 PM
Mendiant -- Sorry, but I think you are TOTALLY out of line with your constant cheap shots and innuendoes about our freshmen, especially your attitude towards Austin Daye. Like you, I have season tickets. Like you, I watch the intereaction on the bench and on the floor.

My wife and I have seen absolutely no indication that Daye, Gray, and Sacre are anything but great Zags. Daye considers Pendo and Pargo to be"big brothers" and role models. Yes, he may leave after two years, but for $4 million a year or so, so would I.

If you have specifics, state them. If all you have is a plateful of half-baked accusations and innuendoes, then admit it. I, for one, don't want to hear accusations anymore. Character assassination doesn't become you.

Church Lady, indeed.

theothegreat21
02-05-2008, 06:06 PM
I think that it is the idea that you are presenting that is actually holding this team back. This is NCAA D1 basketball at the highest level, not high school basketball where people should be deferring to the upperclassmen. At this point in the season, this is a team and the best players who are the most productive should be leading this team, and it just so happens that a couple of those players are freshman.

I have no doubt that Daye and Gray and Bouldin(still only a sophomore) respect the contributions that Pendo and Josh have given to the program, but to really earn respect they ned to prove it on the court. And guess what, at this point in the season it is Daye and Gray and until the last couple of games Bouldin who are playing the hardest and the most productive. There is a difference between honoring the veterans on the team and respecting them.

I understand that many of those great players you listed got us to where we are, but I personally am no satisfied. I dont want GU to be a great mid-major story that every couple of years makes some noise in the tournament. We have not passed this stage yet, and its going to take freshmen with the mentality that they are the best players in the nation to get us to the level. I guarantee you Daye and Gray didnt come here to have great stats and maybe make a Sweet 16 once in their careers. Instead they are here to win a National Championship, and in all honesty it should be these veterans on the team who sacrifice their playing time to get the best players on the court

mendiant
02-05-2008, 06:20 PM
Mendiant -- Sorry, but I think you are TOTALLY out of line with your constant cheap shots and innuendoes about our freshmen, especially your attitude towards Austin Daye. Like you, I have season tickets. Like you, I watch the intereaction on the bench and on the floor.

My wife and I have seen absolutely no indication that Daye, Gray, and Sacre are anything but great Zags. Daye considers Pendo and Pargo to be"big brothers" and role models. Yes, he may leave after two years, but for $4 million a year or so, so would I.

If you have specifics, state them. If all you have is a plateful of half-baked accusations and innuendoes, then admit it. I, for one, don't want to hear accusations anymore. Character assassination doesn't become you.

Church Lay, indeed.

I didn't see that last night when Austin inbound went to Steven rather than an open Jeremy, on more than one occasion...

when a dish went to an overly defended Steven rather than looking for a viable out.

I have seen it in stat padding with 6 minutes to go and 3 opponents fouled out...no sharing with guys who don't get the pt...

I have heard it in press quotes...it's about the freshman.

This is no cheap shot, it is a genuine concern...

And really, if you think team unity is a cheap shot you are way out of line...

Never said a name, richard, but you knew who I was talking about...

If he leaves for cash in a few years, fine. I do not begrudge him that...Morrison was mentioned in my post.

But leave as a true Zag...

You ought to know better...

theothegreat21
02-05-2008, 06:27 PM
I didn't see that last night when Austin inbound went to Steven rather than an open Jeremy, on more than one occasion...

when a dish went to an overly defended Steven rather than looking for a viable out.

I have seen it in stat padding with 6 minutes to go and 3 opponents fouled out...no sharing with guys who don't get the pt...

I have heard it in press quotes...it's about the freshman.

This is no cheap shot, it is a genuine concern...

And really, if you think team unity is a cheap shot you are way out of line...

Never said a name, richard, but you knew who I was talking about...

If he leaves for cash in a few years, fine. I do not begrudge him that...Morrison was mentioned in my post.

But leave as a true Zag...

You ought to know better...


Im hoping that you are trying to get a rise out of the boards with this post. I think its quite ridiculous to suggest that Austin was intentionally trying to get the ball to Steven instead of Pargo. In fact I would assume that they wanted to have Gray bring up the ball to give Pargo a little bit of break since he played 40 minutes.

On the turnover late in the game it was clearly just a freshman trying to make a big play and it turned in to a mistake. Austin tried to hit the open cutter and it was a dumb pass, but there was nothing selfish about it. And how can you accuse of stat-padding, do you remember Adam's final year when he stole the ball from Raivio to get more free-throws against USF so he could get a couple of more points at the end of the game. But when Adam did this it was because he was a competitior or a scorer.

I think its time to get off Austin's back, he is a unique talent that any school in the nation would want to have. We are beyond lucky to have him for two years, and he is the type of player that can take us to a national championship on his back. But the beauty of this team is we have lots of other people contributing. Dont try to point figures and make accusations that are insulting to the players on the team

BroncoZAG615
02-05-2008, 06:36 PM
This is SUCH a speculative thread. These threads are the most constant thing on these boards. After every loss, heart is questioned as questioning the freshmen class. There is a serious thought in my head that I just can't seem to get out and have been really freaked out to pose it but these posts are driving me up the wall.

It seems their is a genuine disdain for our recent recruits because they have 5 and 4 stars next to their names. I hate to single people out but Mendiant it seems like you would rather have Gonzaga continue on as a slipper wearing cinderella then a powerhouse. I choose the latter, not only for basketball but for overall school recognition.

Also, how do the freshman HONOR these men, you talk about them as though they are soldiers when they are 17 year old basketball players who worry about juggling so many different things. I've always respected your posts because I thought they were genuinely upbeat and well thought out. But in this case, you can have the past, I'll take what lies ahead.

El Voce
02-05-2008, 06:37 PM
Wow! Mendy, if you really believe that, then you are way out there. Did you see little green Martians running around the court, too? When people have an axe to grind about certain people, they will see what they want to see. All I saw last night was guys trying, with all their heart, to win a basketball game.

Yeah, I knew who you were talking about. It doesn't take a genius now, does it, seeing that it's about your fourth or fifth post bashing Austin this year.

I will stand totally behind what I said earlier. Our freshmen are team guys, and I am damn happy to have them as Zags.

I feel kind of bad about taking you on, because over the years you and I have been on the same side when players like Derek were ravaged by some on this board. Now, you are doing the ravaging, it would seem.

This will be my final word on this subject. Feel free to have the last word.

gonzaga_is_life_itself
02-05-2008, 06:40 PM
I'm pretty sure Austin Daye isn't thinking of himself during games. He's thinking about helping the team win. Perhaps you watched the Zags show on Sunday night. Austin was featured and I recall him saying hes grown a lot since being in high school, sharing the ball tons more. He said in high school, once he had the ball, he would just shoot no matter who was open. Now he isn't totally selfish with the ball, he helps out to get the team points.

wsulax
02-05-2008, 06:44 PM
I honestly feel the freshman class is the most talent the team has. Everyone else does have talent, but they make the same freshman mistakes at a jr. sr. level. Yes Pargo played a great second half, but did you see how many turnovers he had in the first half. I do not see how you say they do not buy into the team, if Daye was such an individual, he would not have tried to pass that ball that was stolen, he would have tried to shoot it. Why does it matter if he is going to Pargo or Gray. They are the future of the program and you should support them not put them down.

speed21
02-05-2008, 06:46 PM
This is SUCH a speculative thread. These threads are the most constant thing on these boards. After every loss, heart is questioned as questioning the freshmen class. There is a serious thought in my head that I just can't seem to get out and have been really freaked out to pose it but these posts are driving me up the wall.

It seems their is a genuine disdain for our recent recruits because they have 5 and 4 stars next to their names. I hate to single people out but Mendiant it seems like you would rather have Gonzaga continue on as a slipper wearing cinderella then a powerhouse. I choose the latter, not only for basketball but for overall school recognition.

Also, how do the freshman HONOR these men, you talk about them as though they are soldiers when they are 17 year old basketball players who worry about juggling so many different things. I've always respected your posts because I thought they were genuinely upbeat and well thought out. But in this case, you can have the past, I'll take what lies ahead.

Couldn't agree more!

mendiant
02-05-2008, 07:34 PM
Wow! Mendy, if you really believe that, then you are way out there. Did you see little green Martians running around the court, too? When people have an axe to grind about certain people, they will see what they want to see. All I saw last night was guys trying, with all their heart, to win a basketball game.

Yeah, I knew who you were talking about. It doesn't take a genius now, does it, seeing that it's about your fourth or fifth post bashing Austin this year.

I will stand totally behind what I said earlier. Our freshmen are team guys, and I am damn happy to have them as Zags.

I feel kind of bad about taking you on, because over the years you and I have been on the same side when players like Derek were ravaged by some on this board. Now, you are doing the ravaging, it would seem.

This will be my final word on this subject. Feel free to have the last word.

Watch some tape honey...

too bad you have to, but here's a FACT...

multiple inbounds from Austin to Steven along the sideline (bad inbound regardless)...with 2 defenders between him and the target and 1 behind the target....

MEANWHILE...Pargo is closer to mid court, with 1 defender BEHIND him.

(Surely you have some bb iq and can recognize this as an issue.)

that's 4 of their guys, 3 of which are concentrated on one...

further, during stat padding, we were up by 30....

I WANT Austin to become a ZAG, not just a footnote. That is not bashing...

That ain't green martian honey, that is a fact...

my concerns are legit and I will take you on anytime when this teams welfare is an issue...

I KNOW WE BOTH HAVE THEIR BEST INTEREST AT HEART.

THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT MY CRITICISM OF SOME IS DISLOYALTY.

YOU KNOW BETTER

and please watch tape...

PS it isn't bashing to call out a player for saying f off to a senior after said player fouled again.
It isn't bashing to say you prefer old dog preference to young dog adoration.

Quote one post where I have dissed Austin's abilities...

He WILL go to the NBA...

MY only question is, will he go as a ZAG, or as one who used the program as a stepping stone...

If you were a woman Richard, you'd be easy.

Stache
02-05-2008, 08:02 PM
If you are saying that we run some "isolation" stuff that makes it look like some boring 1 on 1 contest in any given NBA game, then I agree that we need to get back to a motion offense where everyone can get a touch.

If you are saying that individuals are the cause of any inconsistency, then perhaps we need to recognize that sometimes our Basketball IQ isn't the greatest. We make the hard pass instead of the easy one. However, I tend to think that the silly and easy to defend 3 man weave above the 3 point line is the problem and not the talented players. Our posts stand on the block or jump out for a high pick and roll. We run very little along the baseline.

The system that you seem to long for is gone. The league is more talented. The days of lumbering around and pounding it into the post are gone.

BroncoZAG615
02-05-2008, 08:15 PM
Mendiant, I don't think that anyone is accusing you of bashing Austin's abilities. Anyone who bashes his abilties should probably be banned from the board for being insane. You are however bashing Austin in the worst way possible. You are bashing him as a teammate and a player.

The worst part about your criticisims is that they are not founded. They are from a person sitting in front of their televisions watching like everyone else. There is no way you know the relationship that Austin has with his teammates. I would bet that I know more than you about how much of a ZAG Austin is because I see him interacting with his teammates on campus all the time.

It saddens me to see someone who is so far removed question why he is here and what his motives are. If he wanted a stepping stone why didn't he choose a factory school. If he wanted a stepping stone, why did he guarantee he will be here another year? You're going to bash him for stat padding when all he is doing is taking open looks. Please honey. Lay off Austin for awhile before you miss one of the most talented players ever to come to Gonzaga.

By the way, title your post by what the subject is, not some backhanded attack at a teenager.

Zag79
02-05-2008, 08:31 PM
wow. im shocked by this thread. i know pargo has NO man on this team that doesnt look up to him or respect him, especially the frosh. daye is here at GU to play ball, the "zag way". he busts his a$$, and does what he can to contribute. mo looked greedy to some but those that knew him and his ability understood when your great and can make the shot most cant, well you take it. austin has hit big shot after big shot and i appluad his play and attitude. watch him interact with pendo or jeremy in between TOs or on the sideline. hes laughing, on his feet cheering, wanting to win the zag way. gotta say i dont see it mend... :o

UberZagFan
02-05-2008, 09:06 PM
zag79, I agree (and Uber doesn't use the first person lightly) that the content of this thread is shocking, especially considering the sources.

Uber for one is quite impressed by the restraint shown by Daye when he is out on the floor. The issue in this thread doesn't seem to be the sharing of the ball by Daye as opposed to who he is sharing it with. Very curious observation and one that is reading too much into the situation.

It is pretty obvious (considering F1D figured it out in November it must be obvious) that Daye is the best player with the most potential on the court and has been for quite some time. Yes he has some things to learn about the college game, about the intricacies of the offense, about better positioning on the defensive end, but the talent is obvious. There is a reason half a dozen NBA scouts were at the game last night and it wasn't to watch the NCAA's version of the Biggest Loser.

Uber never recalls anyone #####ing and moaning about JP (JP the First) taking the ball in the post and making a nice drop step and shooting the ball even if he was doubled teamed or even if a man was open on the three. No one called JP selfish or not a "Zag". Why is that so? Because we knew that was a "good" shot, that he could execute that move, that he could "finish".

SO why the rub on Daye? If you watch the "tape" you'll see that Daye on the wing being guarded by one player is in the same realm as JP was with the ball in the post--he could score at will. Uber sees nothing wrong with Daye using his abilities (even so he does share the ball and has made many good passes to teammates--he's averaging nearly the same amount of assists per minute as Gray and is close to Bouldin).

If a runner's on second with no one out, Uber wants to see his four hitter knock the run in--not hit a grounder to second base to move the runner to third.

GonzagaGurl08
02-05-2008, 09:41 PM
Just because our best option at this time happens to be two stellar freshman (Austin and Stephen) doesn't mean we have to regard them as being selfish. There is no "I" in Team (I know it's cliche), but these two have what it takes to win. Let's not get on a player (or two) for a bad inbounds pass, they know what they are doing. I would personally rather have Austin pass to Steven than lob a long pass to Jeremy that could get stolen and result in a turnover. If Steven looses the ball it will be the result of a foul or battle for possesion. These kids have incredible talent, and that talent is what will take the team to the Final Four. As soon as the rest of this team can step it up and consistently score 20+ points per game, I say we go with what works. If Austin leaves for the NBA in two years its a an asset to Gonzaga to show how we foster, develop, and build talent. We want GU to be an elite program, I think these freshmen are a major part of the equation.

These kids are Zags through and through, if they wanted to play on a number 1 team they could have. However, they picked GU, and they will continue the tradition, and then pass the torch to the next group of Zags. BTW they are 18 or 19 years old, let's cut them some slack, they are just kids.

Rant over.

jim77
02-06-2008, 07:27 AM
I see a team that is slowly coming into its own.

I see a team that is getting battle hardened.

I see a team that may not lose another conference game.

I see a team that will be a tough out come dancing time.

Has anybody seen my glasses?

cjm720
02-06-2008, 07:31 AM
I see a team that is slowly coming into its own.

I see a team that is getting battle hardened.

I see a team that may not lose another conference game.

I see a team that will be a tough out come dancing time.

Has anybody seen my glasses?

I think you're wearing them...your vision looks fine to me.

Zerogame
02-06-2008, 09:29 AM
I posted a reply back in October regarding Austin Daye that I would like to repeat. Austin along with Andrew Sorenson showed up at a basketball workshop in Incheilium on the Colville Indian Reservation. It was for kids age 6 to 12. No coaches or other players where there. It was part of a GU leadership group that invited the players. As I understand most of the other players went to a football game at WSU.
It looked like a kid that wanted to be part of the GU experience that day. I don't think I have seen anything different to change my mind. Like I said then and I will say it again...GONZAGA got it right again!

TexasZagFan
02-06-2008, 09:40 AM
This thread is making me really uncomfortable.

Trying to choose between Church Lady and The Voice of Reason is like trying to choose between:

Hillary and Obama
Lucy and Ricky
Ice cream and smoothies
Guinness on tap and Konigsbacher Pils
Kalbschnitzel in Idar-Oberstein, Germany or fresh calamari at the wharf in Chania, Crete
Cher and Sonny (scratch that...Cher went off the deep end)
Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle (Willie will always be my fave, though)

I think you get the point.

Time for a "Zag Unity" hug!

FuManShoes
02-06-2008, 10:02 AM
The subject line seemed to be a call for a nice wish for this squad. (Mine was going to be that the team even the keel a bit and start getting more consistent performances from guys who should be able to provide them -- Josh, Matt and Micah). But alas, instead this thread, or at least the first post, is a crazy attack on the few Zags out there who appear to be buying in to the system and playing their butts off whenever they are on the floor: Austin and Steven. Austin is a scoring machine, and more recently, a boarding machine. He can do it all and is not at all hesitent to pass to a teammate (the no-look a few games back? the nifty looking pass against St Mary's that was actually a smart play except Mills picked the thing off - kid's no slouch). Austin has black-hole tendencies, all great scorers do, but these ad hominum attacks on his character and motives are pure BS. And don't even get me started on the implication that Gray doesn't respect his teammates. The dude hustles as much as anyone save Pendo. He was diving for loose balls the day he got back on the court, his recently broken wrist be damned. He makes the passes, he tips the passes, he makes clutch free throws and he takes ballsy shots - and nails them. I love this kid's game and moxie. So you want to know what I wish for this team? That the UPPERCLASSMEN start playing more like the FRESHMEN.

Reborn
02-06-2008, 12:26 PM
Mendiant, I shared your sentiments early in the season, and in hindsight I don't think it was selfishness on his part as much as it was Austin just trying to find his place here at Gonzaga, and feeling that he had to prove himself. I see a tremendous change in Austin. I really do. I see him becoming a total team player, and even more, someone who hates to lose just the same way Adam did. Austin HATES to lose. He is playing so well in all areas of the game, imo, and makes very good passes all the time. He throws the ball to all the guys, and is not a ball hog, which felt he was doing earlier in the year. Few has disciplined him for that, and it paid off. I don't know why, but right now I see Austin as a Zag in every way that I saw Adam. And, yes, as someone said, JP too. Some guys can score on anyone, and the team needs them to do that. That too, is playing team ball. Team ball, or as I like to call it, is chemistry. And to me it has to everyone knowing and performing their role on the team with humility and love. That includes guys like Pendo, Kuso, and it also includes scorers like Pargo and Adam, and I think some day soon, Steven. Austin does have some strange facial expressions, and isn't calm like so many of the guys. But, at least so far, Adam had the greatest expressions of any Zag I've loved. For me it's good to see Daye with that same kind of passion for the game, and hatred for losing.....

With that said, Mendiant...I do respect your opinion because I respect you. It isn't always about being right.......

Reborn
02-06-2008, 12:35 PM
My hope for this team is that they can continue to improve every week, and every game. So far we have been doing that. When we continue to improve we get better, and we do have a ways to go. But, I have seen huge strides taken in the last three weeks. Losing has helped. It helped after the loss to Memphis, and it's going to help more after this loss, I believe. Pain is the chief motivator to change.

My hope for the team, for this year, is to make it to the Final Four. It really is. It was from the beginning of the year, and it hasnt changed a bit. And I do not consider myself to be a Pollyianna. I really like this team, and if we can just get a jellin, we'll make it I think. I feel there's a pretty big set back right now with Josh and Downs playing the way they are, but the good news is they both havae 5 weeks to fix what ever is bothering them. And, imo, it's in their heads. Neither of them are playing even close to their potential.

As much as I criticize Few at times, I must say that I really believe in him. I do. And I think that right now until the end of March is Mark Few's time of year. He worked magic last year after Josh was suspended. The team really came together and did way better than anyone thought was possible. He does it every year too. I think Mark Few has a magic wand, and he's got it out as I type. I look forward to the next two months because that is when everything really counts. The smart bet is most always a bet for the Zags.
And from the beginning we knew we had a special team. LET'S NOT FORGET THAT..........AND LET'S NOT GIVE UP OUR HOPES AND DREAMS.