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View Full Version : OT - While I was watching Joey Dorsey pull down 22 boards...



CDC84
01-31-2008, 09:10 AM
Memphis center Joey Dorsey had yet another monster game last night: 22 rebounds and 4 blocks. The Tigers are now 20-0 on the year.

It really got me thinking about something....

I know a lot folks despise Coach Calipari, but I have always admired him as coach, even going back to his UMass days. One of his greatest abilities as a coach is getting his players to buy into their roles, and getting them to play hard all the time.

A good deal of his time during the offseason was spent trying to convince Dorsey to serve a Ben Wallace type role on this year's Memphis team. Now Cal is not the only coach in the biz to use the example of specific NBA players to inspire his own players to play at a higher level, but he has an amazing ability to sell it to his players.

One of the reasons for his success is that he uses the example of NBA players who serve a role on their team that Cal wants his Memphis player to play as well. He avoids using "can do it all" types like Kobe Bryant. This not only encourages role definition…it also challenges his player to play to his strengths and to do things he excels at on the floor. Cal was so convincing this past offseason that Dorsey actually changed his uniform number to 3….the same one that Wallace wears for the Chicago Bulls.

In the modern era, these kind of motivational tactics are a brilliant strategy to motivate your players if you are a college coach. So many college coaches either deny or underestimate the existence of the NBA and how it is such a motivating force on their players, or they just roll the balls out and allow their players to do whatever they want, without role definition and structure, because that’s what they think will appeal to recruits who have a NBA future.

What Calipari did, when it comes to Dorsey, served two purposes:

1 - Wallace’s example showed Dorsey that defending, rebounding and blocking shots – doing the Ben Wallace sort of thing – are skills that are highly valued at the NBA level. Wallace is currently making around 15 million big ones a year doing what he does.

2 - Wallace’s example showed Dorsey that Wallace-like skills are not only valued in terms of money, but also in terms of big time winning. The success of the Detroit Pistons during Wallace’s time there is a perfect example about how playing a similar role on the Memphis Tigers can lead to team accomplishment.

It seems so simple, and yet Cal just does this sort of thing at a higher level than most coaches. Or at least that's what I have observed.

jim77
01-31-2008, 09:40 AM
Nice post CDC.

Billy Donovan is another coach that motivates his players to play their roles. Last years National Champion's Horford and Richard were both basically designated rebounders/defenders.

I think it makes good team sense to do this....playing a fella not only to his strengths but also the team's strengths. I believe that Dorsey is so effective at his role that he will be drawing an NBA paycheck. Dorsey isn't going anywhere as a scorer/all around guy...but he will go to the next level as BEN II. The kid can thank Calipari for being smart enough to recognize this...and hey the Memphis Tigers seem to be benefitting too.

Palying ones role is what TEAMBALL is all about.

rennis
01-31-2008, 09:43 AM
It seems so simple, and yet Cal just does this sort of thing at a higher level than most coaches. Or at least that's what I have observed.


interesting thoughts. Someone should tell Josh to play like Tim Duncan. Last I heard he makes a couple bucks too. That 3 point line is for the little guys. Stay close to the bucket big man!

sonuvazag
01-31-2008, 09:57 AM
interesting thoughts. Someone should tell Josh to play like Tim Duncan. Last I heard he makes a couple bucks too. That 3 point line is for the little guys. Stay close to the bucket big man!
Great call! For his size, speed, touch (especially off the backboard)... Duncan is a good model for Josh. Duncan does reliably hit some 20-footers here and there, but I get your point.

CDC84
01-31-2008, 10:09 AM
The problem is that Josh is not a back to the basket big man, and nor has he ever been. Although Duncan has expanded his offensive game since he's been a pro, he was essentially a JP Batista-like big when he played at Wake Forest. Few needs to find a power forward in the NBA that has Josh's perimeter orientation and athleticism, but who plays hard all the time on both ends and crashes the boards. And yes, someone who also does enough things offensively in the low blocks to keep defenses honest. I mean, JH can learn a thing or two from watching Duncan, but part of what inspires Dorsey is that he literally sees himself in Ben Wallace. If Josh looks at Tim Duncan, he probably sees an alien life form for the most part.

rennis
01-31-2008, 10:26 AM
The problem is that Josh is not a back to the basket big man, and nor has he ever been. Although Duncan has expanded his offensive game since he's been a pro, he was essentially a JP Batista-like big when he played at Wake Forest. Few needs to find a power forward in the NBA that has Josh's perimeter orientation and athleticism, but who plays hard all the time on both ends and crashes the boards. And yes, someone who also does enough things offensively in the low blocks to keep defenses honest. I mean, JH can learn a thing or two from watching Duncan, but part of what inspires Dorsey is that he literally sees himself in Ben Wallace. If Josh looks at Tim Duncan, he probably sees an alien life form for the most part.

I'm just trying to think of an elite NBA player with similar skills/game as Josh. If we can't find one, that could be saying something.

But I also think Josh needs to work on his moves with his back to the bucket, and Duncan is a great example of having both post-up and face-up jumpers off the window. I've seen it happen a lot the last couple of games for Josh, working around the rim. He's unstoppable in the post (once he has position), whether he is facing up from 8 ft. or backing someone down at 4 ft.

sonuvazag
01-31-2008, 10:30 AM
I see Josh as unlikely to replicate what a perimeter big like Dirk Nowitski does. The ballhandling, speed off the dribble... I don't see it.

I do see the potential for him to do what Duncan does. If he doesn't see it in himself, there's no hope, but the way Josh likes to face up to the basket after receiving the ball, hesitate, and suddenly shoot over the defender, banking off glass... that's a Duncan move. He simply needs to use his pivot more.

CDC84
01-31-2008, 10:31 AM
I can't think of anyone either off the top of my head, but there are people on this board who follow the NBA and all of its teams and players more closely than I do. Maybe someone can come up with a name......

Any big man would be wise to pay attention to what Tim Duncan does on the floor, and also how he conducts himself as a professional.

BobZag
01-31-2008, 10:59 AM
The problem is that Josh is not a back to the basket big man, and nor has he ever been. Although Duncan has expanded his offensive game since he's been a pro, he was essentially a JP Batista-like big when he played at Wake Forest. Few needs to find a power forward in the NBA that has Josh's perimeter orientation and athleticism, but who plays hard all the time on both ends and crashes the boards. And yes, someone who also does enough things offensively in the low blocks to keep defenses honest. I mean, JH can learn a thing or two from watching Duncan, but part of what inspires Dorsey is that he literally sees himself in Ben Wallace. If Josh looks at Tim Duncan, he probably sees an alien life form for the most part.

Kevin Garnett?

jim77
01-31-2008, 11:26 AM
I believe Josh's role is "Threat guy"....what is a threat guy? It is a guy who takes lots of preparation for...in fact he will be the center of attention for the opposing foe. I've said many times I think Josh is the key to our advanced success.

Get into the head of the opposing coach and ask yourself what would you say to your team about Josh.... I'd tell them these things: The guy can guard the rim....the guy can shoot 3's.....the guy can rebound and he can run the floor. He can also shoot free throws.(when he's healthy) Let's just hope he can't hit his shots...because I'm not sending my center after him and exposing the boards.


I'll agree that Josh could use a post move to add to his arsenal and a good PF should have one.

Like everybody else here, I'd like to see GU go deep in the tourney. That will require us to beat great teams with great athletes. Teams that will be able to force their will onto most of our players.(unlike in the WCC) The main guy who they CAN'T force their will on is Josh....and Pargo to some extent. One other thing, the more attention Josh draws the more the rest of the team will benefit. Here's to a healthy Josh....and a big performance in Cali this weekend!

23dpg
01-31-2008, 11:33 AM
Kevin Garnett?


That's who I think of also. I know he's not the player that Garnett is, but then again, who is? But I think he shares a similar but lesser skill set.

PFzag
01-31-2008, 11:38 AM
One guy that comes to mind is Josh Smith of the Atlanta Hawks. Heytvelt is NEVER going to be the freakish athlete that Smith is, but their skill set is similar. Smith runs the floor incredibly well for a big man, blocks shots like crazy, hits open threes within the offense and generally is just an energetic guy who is always moving and utilizing his athleticism.

Josh fits that mold pretty well, aside from the energetic part. Maybe telling him to fill that kind of role would get him to be more active and let him play to his athletic strenghts more.

CDC84
01-31-2008, 03:46 PM
Steven Gray = Ray Allen

Again...not a comparison based on talent level, but style.....

IrishZag
01-31-2008, 05:00 PM
Heytvelt = Nowitzki? I disagree

Unless I missed a part of the season that Heyvelt was automatic from the three or midrange and had the ability to create his own shot from the outside? If anyone on this team is like Dirk its Austin Daye with his penchant for hitting open shots from the outside and his ability to shoot over people with his high release points and jab steps.

Heytvelt should get some game tape of Pau Gasol. They have a similar build and athleticism and an ability to hit midrange and outside jumpers. Josh's limited post game resembles Gasol's but he could learn a couple things on the low blocks. Like Josh, Gasol's often considered soft, but he has a mean streak and toughness that reminds me of Josh in big games.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/players/hollinger?statsId=3513

While we are at it here are some other guys I can think of for inspiration.

Pargo - Baron Davis: Nobody is better at using his body around the hoop than Baron
Bouldin - Ginobili: Does so many things, a difficult matchup for most guards
Gray - Allen: I like that CDC
Pendo - Najera
Kuso - Turiaf
Downs - Turkoglu
Ira! - Marion
Daye - Nowitzki

Birddog
01-31-2008, 05:10 PM
Pendo - Najera
Good one, they are both warriors. They could have been in Braveheart.

Birddog

ZagNut08
02-01-2008, 07:43 AM
Perhaps brian cook of the magic (former laker)

he is a 6'10 not overly big and strong outside oriented pf. he has limited post skills, and usually hangs out on the perimeter.

GoZags
02-01-2008, 08:43 AM
Good one, they (Pendo/Najera) are both warriors. They could have been in Braveheart.

Birddog


Bingo

Doktorkev
02-01-2008, 08:45 AM
One of the most interesting threads I have followed this season. I particularly like the duncan/heytvelt comparison.

gamagin
02-01-2008, 10:08 AM
right now he has about as much chance of making it to the Bigs as Ed Grimley has of making the Olympics in synchronized swimming.

Otoh, he has much, much upside potential and needs to take full advantage of every minute he is lucky enough to be part of this great team & continue to toughen up, grow and learn.

cjm720
02-01-2008, 11:30 AM
Steven Gray = Ray Allen

Again...not a comparison based on talent level, but style.....

That's hilarious

lothar98zag
02-01-2008, 11:56 AM
That's hilarious
explain

rennis
02-01-2008, 12:12 PM
explain


CJM is a die-hard Sonics fan and has a man-crush on Ray-Ray. Even though Gray hails from his home town, he laughs at the comparison.

cjm720
02-01-2008, 12:34 PM
Ray Allen defines smooth. He arguably has the NBA's best jump shot and has been in that category for a long time.

As much as Gray's skills and style are evident, I think a comparison to Ray is over the top and a bit of wishful thinking.

lothar98zag
02-01-2008, 12:45 PM
Ray Allen defines smooth. He arguably has the NBA's best jump shot and has been in that category for a long time.

As much as Gray's skills and style are evident, I think a comparison to Ray is over the top and a bit of wishful thinking.
ok.

but remember, CDC said:


...not a comparison based on talent level, but style.....



If not RA, who does SG compare w/ in the NBA?
(not looking for a "gotcha", I'm just curious)

rennis
02-01-2008, 12:47 PM
Ray Allen defines smooth. He arguably has the NBA's best jump shot and has been in that category for a long time. and yes, my man-crush on Ray is shameful, but I can't control it


fixed

rennis
02-01-2008, 12:48 PM
ok.


If not RA, who does SG compare w/ in the NBA?
(not looking for a "gotcha", I'm just curious)


If I had my druthers, I'd pick Bruce Bowen with a better stroke.

CDC84
02-01-2008, 02:38 PM
FWIW....I am not the only one who has come up with the Ray Allen-style comparison. That was mentioned to me by a few different people before I even had a chance to see him play as a high schooler.

Allen is still an excellent player for Steven to look up to though. Both guys are about the same height, have a similiar build, are sharpshooters and are what I would call graceful athletes. Also, the first thing that comes to my mind when I think of Gray, more than anything else, is the smoothness of his game. In fact, he might the smoothest player I've seen play at GU since I don't know when.

Getting back to the gist of my original post.....just because Joey Dorsey looks up to Ben Wallace and seems himself in him doesn't necessarily mean he is as good as Ben is. It can be the same thing with Allen and Gray.

cjm720
02-01-2008, 02:47 PM
If not RA, who does SG compare w/ in the NBA?
(not looking for a "gotcha", I'm just curious)

I've never really been into comparisons, but since you're asking Deron Williams comes to mind.

And, CDC your original point isn't lost on me; coaching and motivation comes in many forms and Coach Cal's certainly has worked with Dorsey (a possible first round pick?).

CDC84
02-01-2008, 02:57 PM
Interesting you mention Deron Williams, because Rick Majerus feels, and has said so on a number of occasions, that Matt Bouldin is virtual Deron Williams clone. But then the Fat Man thinks that Pargo is pronounced "Prego.".....and sometimes as "Preg-gull."

cjm720
02-01-2008, 03:11 PM
With dure respect to Majerus and Bouldin, I'm not sure if MB can do this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oY-jTAgZFIQ

Comparison's are always tough but inevitable. I see similar skill sets and size but the athleticism just isn't there.

rennis
02-01-2008, 03:21 PM
With dure respect to Majerus and Bouldin, I'm not sure if MB can do this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oY-jTAgZFIQ

Comparison's are always tough but inevitable. I see similar skill sets and size but the athleticism just isn't there.

Seriously! If we have Deron Williams, Baron Davis, Ray Allen, and Eduardo Najera on our team, shouldn't we be undefeated?

:confused:

:D