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View Full Version : Heyvelt doesn’t seem to have “ IT “



vaboris
01-26-2008, 04:13 PM
I know this guy was a feel good story after the Maui Tourney a couple years ago with the injury, etc. He had got a lot of hype - but it does not seem like he will ever be a star or dominate "go to" player as Gonzaga has had in the past.

At no point have I really felt comfortable when he has the ball on the offensive end. I doubt this will change this year. I just don't think he has the "IT" factor like star players in the past.

This isn’t a flame or anything... just wondering your guys’ thoughts on him.

ZagNative
01-26-2008, 04:18 PM
Of course, you're keeping in mind he's playing with bronchitis right now, right?

I'm making no judgments until he's 100%.

BobZag
01-26-2008, 04:22 PM
??

btzag
01-26-2008, 04:52 PM
Let's see...
Heytvelt did not play a competitive game in 8 months, suffers a stress fracture in his foot causing extended time of inactivity, and then gets the flu and bronchitis which causes him to lose 15lbs and you expect him to be a All American or something right away?! I'm a little tired of criticism of the guy and he has even been quoted saying that he is not there physically, especially legs and explosiveness, and his play has been up and down, mostly down. When Josh has been healthy and playing regularly the sky is the limit. That might happen by the end of the WCC season but I think it is way too early to throw this guy under the bus. 13 and 7 against that frontcourt of Memphis is a decent showing and I thought he held his own considering the recent illness.

MBZags
01-26-2008, 05:02 PM
You're delusional.

zagco
01-26-2008, 05:19 PM
Zagco simply cannot assess Josh Heytvelt as a player, primarily because he really hasn't played much in his career at Gonzaga. He's been redshirted, injured, suspended, and sick. If it's not one thing, it's another thing. It's always puzzled Zagco how other predict his lofty NBA draft status. How could you know?

btzag
01-26-2008, 05:28 PM
High school career, physical attributes (running the court, huge hops, 6-11), BB skills (post player with soft touch, can step out and hit the 3, etc), 2006 season before suspension 26mins average, 15.5 pts, 7.7 boards, 1.7 blocks per game, all as a soph. Need I say more? He definitely has talent for NBA and scouts see what he projects as in the future.

VanZagar
01-26-2008, 05:35 PM
For whatever reason(s) Josh hasn't done as well as many of us hoped. He hasn't played all that much in his career and has displayed brilliance and mediocrity in equal measures. Even the mediocre Josh is far and away our best inside player. We can only hope for some of his more stellar performances down the stretch.

kitzbuel
01-26-2008, 05:48 PM
I by no means would say that I was not comfortable with him having the ball, but I do agree with Zagco. We have not seen much of what Josh can do yet this year. He needs to avoid injuries and stay healthy for a long enough time to get into playing shape, get into the flow of the game and get confident enough to dominate games. He has shown he has the capability to do this, but has had a lot of events conspire against him to prevent him from compiling a solid body of work.

MickMick
01-26-2008, 06:38 PM
He was a work in progress before all of that down time. With so little time left in his career, it seems that Coach Few has given up on creating a post player in the mold of Turiaf. Josh still lends some very positive attributes to the team. We still need him on his game to get into post season.

gamagin
01-26-2008, 06:48 PM
when a horse came up lame during a race, there would be a wagon driven out to the fallen athlete.

A tent-like curtain was removed from the wagon and set up to surround the animal and separate it from the crowd, and, one might surmise, limit the splatter area. Within a few moments, everyone would hear a gunshot.

Four legs protruding out of the passing wagon, under the curtain/blanket, signaled that "Hoof Hearted" or some other loyal thoroughbred, had run his last race.

Maybe we should keep a curtained wagon on the end of the zag bench. A little incentive for those whose rehab has the GUB Poster's Anonymous frustrated.

Like Josh.

MDABE80
01-26-2008, 06:56 PM
Doesn't seem to a Lion anymore. I can't tell what's up with Josh. He's a long way from 15.6 ppg he had last year to go with those 8 rebounds/game. It's puzzling but his temperment has changed. Haven't seen him get P*ssed or even let out that big ROAR.

He needs to get well from these maladies and get his old attitude. Josh needs to get voracious/angry/ vicious even. Untill he does, he won't be competetive. RIght now he's far from a Pro career. currently, he's not even outstanding in college. He can be ..I'm convinced of that. Something's different these days. Maybe it's the other things in his life . Maybe he's carrying too much weight.....again...dunno.

He's a centerpiece type of player though.It just seems like he doesn't even want to show up at the table now. It's been like this for awhile. Time's fleeting for our Josh. He'll be back next year though. I don't doubt that for a single minute.

75Zag
01-26-2008, 07:16 PM
Borrow a video and watch Josh play in the first part of last season - before the mushroom incident. He has great basketball skills and anybody who says otherwise is an idiot.

For reasons that I do not know, he has not shown us his skills so far this year, but I am waiting and I think they will emerge. I give Josh a lot of credit. When the mushroom thing happened, he could have dropped out of school, headed for Europe and tried to play his way into the NBA from there. That is probably what I would have done, rather than face the embarrassment and hassle of dealing with probation, courts, suspensions, etc. But Josh had the balls to stick it out, do what he had to do to stay at GU, and to return to college play.

I am confident that Josh will take another step forward at GU and give us a chance to cheer for him on his way to the NBA.

timgozag
01-26-2008, 08:52 PM
I hope this game is a wakeup call for Josh. Even though he made a couple of 3 points shot but his performance today is a B-. I still like him though, but I hope he is a little faster and stronger from now until the rest of the season to get ready for the march dance.

tyra
01-26-2008, 09:13 PM
I don't know if Josh's play is limited by the bronchitis, not being in full shape yet because of the foot, or anything else. I only think I know one thing: This team's March prospects will be determined by him. As Josh goes, so will this team. So, I guess I'm taking the coward's way out and rooting like Heck for him.

MDABE80
01-26-2008, 09:26 PM
Exactly Tyra. That's IT! We want the best for him but he needs to get himself together. Needs a little fire. Not seen yet but it's in there. Let's hope he finds it. I'm one of those who knows he's got those enormous skills but I want him to show up.....like a major leaguer!!!

Ezag
01-26-2008, 09:50 PM
I think Heytvelt has had bad luck since he got to Gonzaga. He is a Junior now and I think Kuso has played more consecutive games then him. It has been either one injury after another, then the suspension, then injury or illness. I don't think he is going to play a complete season yet.

applezag
01-26-2008, 10:37 PM
As Josh goes, so will this team. So, I guess I'm taking the coward's way out and rooting like Heck for him.

I have to disagree. GU cannot go forward with this mindset. It's disappointing, but Josh is Josh, and that means we don't know what we're going to get from game to game. Physically, yes, he could be a dominant force inside and out, especially in the WCC. But based on his track record we cannot really count on that, so we shouldn't. His recent lackluster efforts may well be due to illness, but for three years we have waited for JH to emerge as a dominant force for us, and--for a variety of reasons--it has not happened on a regular basis. So we need to stop waiting for it. What he gives us could be great, but let's not count on it.

In some ways, I see GU's post game like the Seahawks running game this year. JH is a bit like Shawn Alexander. He's supposed to be really good, but when we go there, the results just don't show. At this point, it might just be best to focus on getting offense out of Pargo, Bouldin, Downs, Gray, and Daye. Josh will still do some great things, but I don't know if it's worth so much attention.

As for the "rooting like heck for him" part, I'm totally with you Tyra. If JH does become what his talent dictates, GU will be incredibly tough. And when it's all said and done, I'd like to see Josh be one of GU's best stories yet.

In the end, this is Jeremey Pargo's team. It will go as far as he takes them. He has made adjustments to his approach to the game and continues to improve to make the team better.

MedZag
01-26-2008, 10:57 PM
In some ways, I see GU's post game like the Seahawks running game this year. JH is a bit like Shawn Alexander. He's supposed to be really good, but when we go there, the results just don't show. At this point, it might just be best to focus on getting offense out of Pargo, Bouldin, Downs, Gray, and Daye. Josh will still do some great things, but I don't know if it's worth so much attention.

...

In the end, this is Jeremey Pargo's team. It will go as far as he takes them. He has made adjustments to his approach to the game and continues to improve to make the team better.

That makes Jeremy Pargo... Matt Hasselbeck?

http://www.finaljudgement.net/pargobeck.gif

ZagsGoZags
01-26-2008, 11:02 PM
aren't we leaving out that his attitude once he started playing in Dec 07, was 100% effort and team spirit, even passing was more generously motivated than ever

UNTIL

he got sick, a couple of weeks ago? I expect that 100% effort back again when he get's well. He looked tired and sick at times while playing today.

tyra
01-27-2008, 07:34 AM
Let me make a small clarification although it may make no difference. When I said "as Josh goes, so goes the team. . ." I meant that even if this is "Jeremy's team" (I sure wouldn't argue with that statement), no team can go very deep in the Dance without a strong post presence. Josh is the ONLY BIG player on this team with the [B]potential[B] to perform in the paint at a level to win some games in the Tournament. We need him to achieve to the level we all hope we can or we won't last long. That's what I meant. And that's why I am rooting like Heck for him.

HOOTER
01-27-2008, 08:10 AM
Let me make a small clarification although it may make no difference. When I said "as Josh goes, so goes the team. . ." I meant that even if this is "Jeremy's team" (I sure wouldn't argue with that statement), no team can go very deep in the Dance without a strong post presence. Josh is the ONLY BIG player on this team with the [B]potential[B] to perform in the paint at a level to win some games in the Tournament. We need him to achieve to the level we all hope we can or we won't last long. That's what I meant. And that's why I am rooting like Heck for him.

The near future of Gonzaga's frontcourt, and the team as a whole, certainly depends to a major extent on Heytvelt. Kuso's gone next year, Sacre's just not ready to play significant minutes, I'm not sure if Foster will ever be a major contributer, and Poling will either redshirt or play very limited minutes next year. If the Zag's are going to compete in the tourney this year and succeed in the inevitably greuling non-conference schedule next season they will need Heytvelt to compete at a very high level.

jayray
01-27-2008, 10:08 AM
Let's see...
Heytvelt did not play a competitive game in 8 months, suffers a stress fracture in his foot causing extended time of inactivity, and then gets the flu and bronchitis which causes him to lose 15lbs and you expect him to be a All American or something right away?! I'm a little tired of criticism of the guy and he has even been quoted saying that he is not there physically, especially legs and explosiveness, and his play has been up and down, mostly down. When Josh has been healthy and playing regularly the sky is the limit. That might happen by the end of the WCC season but I think it is way too early to throw this guy under the bus. 13 and 7 against that frontcourt of Memphis is a decent showing and I thought he held his own considering the recent illness.

I can buy this argument. Let's not judge him until he is 100%. Then the question arises are we ever going to get to see him at 100%? It is always one thing or another and people keep making excuses of why he is not at 100%. Sooner or later you might have to form your opinion based on what you see because he might never be at 100% long enough to get a good glimpse of his full potential.

VinnyZag
01-27-2008, 10:32 AM
At no point have I really felt comfortable when he has the ball on the offensive end.

Did you see the Carolina game last year? I felt pretty comfortable with the ball in his hands when he was schooling Tyler Hansbrough.

I know, he hasn't played that well since. But we know that game is in him. For all the reasons others have shared, he hasn't had a chance to show it. But we know what he can do.

And I'll make this point again: It'd help if he touched the ball on offense now and again.

JAGzag
01-27-2008, 10:56 AM
And I'll make this point again: It'd help if he touched the ball on offense now and again.

Vinny, I think you touched on something. I noticed this a few times where Josh looked to be in great position and had an open passing lane and they passed on feeding him the ball. I think the players know something - either that he's not playing to form and lack trust or that he's still sick. I hope it's the latter.

jim77
01-27-2008, 11:43 AM
Did anybody notice that Josh was actually pretty mobile when he returned from foot surgery??? The guy has an health issue obviously. I'd like to see anybody on this board chase those Memphis guys with a case of Bronchitis....I've ridden my bike in those conditions and let me tell ya, Its dam hard to get air. I'll give the guy a compliment for sucking it up and going out there.

This team will not go far in the tourney without him....when healthy there is nobody in college basketball that can "d" him....even Dorsey,Hansbrough,Love and any others can stop him from draining his outside shots. Patience...patience.

I'm going to find some "crow spices" to sell because I'm gonna make a bundle between now and the end of the year. GO JOSH

zagco
01-27-2008, 11:48 AM
Zagco likes the reference to "the mushroom incident." :D

However, that can sound sorta ominous. We need something friendlier, in the spirit of giving everyone a second chance after making a public mistake that does not result in physical injury to another person or critter. How about "the mushroom caper?" Zagco likes the word "caper." It's friendly, yet mischievious. Zagco's criminal defense lawyer buddy has long wished he could get a client that would just commit a "caper," as opposed to "armed robbery" and the like. Frankly, the world needs more "capers" and fewer "incidents." :o

Rangerzag
01-27-2008, 01:42 PM
Zagco likes the reference to "the mushroom incident." :D

However, that can sound sorta ominous. We need something friendlier, in the spirit of giving everyone a second chance after making a public mistake that does not result in physical injury to another person or critter. How about "the mushroom caper?" Zagco likes the word "caper." It's friendly, yet mischievious. Zagco's criminal defense lawyer buddy has long wished he could get a client that would just commit a "caper," as opposed to "armed robbery" and the like. Frankly, the world needs more "capers" and fewer "incidents." :o



"Showing at a theater near you"

"The Fungal Caper"

;) ;)

roxdoc
01-27-2008, 03:14 PM
A little chicken with mushrooms and capers - yum yum!

Russell Bevan
01-28-2008, 07:59 AM
Here is the problem, we know what Josh can do. We witnessed him turn from a normal human into Superman (think UNC) and we have been waiting to see it again ever since.

It's like Josh is the best toy anyone ever had, but your parents never let you play with it. He has been at Gonzaga for four years, but in that time he has delivered on his potential only a handful of times. Compound that with the fact that many people believe he "owes" us because of the tarnish he put on our school and frustration is bound to follow.

The mood seems to be "It is time", or to borrow a phrase, "Just do it". How many times do we have to see him listed as a potential first round pick, then have something keep him from delivering on the hardwood.

I just want him to fulfill his potential and if he can help us beat St. Mary's at the same time, well that would be an added bonus.

Russell

Reborn
01-28-2008, 08:18 AM
I'm not going to take a lot of time to do the stats but I know Josh's stats are much better than Kuso's, and better than some of the other top 8 Zags. Josh is playing OK, and he definately is not a problem to the team. Yes, we may have a Josh who is different right now, but my god, he's rehabing. Josh IS giving us everything he has, and I think more, and if it wasn't good enough for the team Mark Few would not be playing him. He got 13 and 7 against Memphis. And I'd say shot close to 50%. You say he's a long way off from his average last year of 15 and 8....13 & 7 doesnt look that far off to me, and he got 13 & 7 against probably the toughest down low defenders in the country. So, let me ask you, "what's up with all the criticism?" We played a very good game against Memphis, so where's the problem really? Maybe in YOUR head.

gamagin
01-28-2008, 08:20 AM
reminds me of the story about the fellow lying in the hospital, turning to his wife.

"Honey, you were there when we lost our business, when we went broke, when we lost the house and the car. You've were there at every critical, bad turn in my life.

So please, leave the room. Quickly. You are bad luck."

roxdoc
01-28-2008, 09:44 AM
Just before Josh came back from his latest injury this board was filled with posts by the rose colored glasses set. He was all we needed to go to the FF!

Now reality has set in. Josh is playing fairly solid, but does not look yet like a draft pick. However, he is filling a definite need - certainly better than our next best alternative. We all hope that he will improve and better realize his talents. But for now things are as they are, and we just need to appreciate Josh for both the talent and the intangibles that he does bring to the team.

Go Josh, Go Zags!

tobizag
01-28-2008, 09:59 AM
The recent passing of Fr. Len Sitter could have had an adverse affect on Josh's play the last 3 game...IMHO.

zzzjag
01-28-2008, 10:01 AM
I am curious if we will ever see moments in a game where Josh and Kuso are on the floor together. I was hoping to see them together with Kuso inside and Josh more away from the hoop.

This current roster has many wing players and it may not work. I always wished we could have seen Josh and JP together for extended minutes. I felt last year, Josh took alot of criticism for not playing the 5 spot when I don't see that as his true strength.

On another note, if I am Will Foster, I have got to be frustrated riding the bench. At some point he has got to think he could log some serious game minutes at another school. I want him to somehow get in the rotation but not sure when/where he will, afterall since starting against Utah, Sacre has barely seen the court himself.

roxdoc
01-28-2008, 10:25 AM
If and until Robert or Will can elevate their game to get serious minutes Josh and Kuso have to sub for eachother. We need them to co-play because of potential foul trouble. Be interesting to see them both in, but that would be flerting with trouble IMHO.

D Hark 2003
01-28-2008, 10:28 AM
I think the people who are saying Heytvelt is weak are just frustrated with the team right now. Heytvelt is obviously not back to 100% physically yet. He might not get back there this year, but with time and work he will be back to his old dunk hungry, swat your shot out of the stadium self. He has been getting solid production so far, not great, but in time he will get his jumping and speed back and then he will take his game to a new level....