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View Full Version : St. Marys is a better team than GU



alaskazagnut
01-02-2008, 05:18 PM
St Marys is better than Gonzaga. If we continue with this "staus quo" they will beat us 3 times this year. Then 3 times next year also. That kinda perterbs me because we have far greater talent "on paper" with a better coaching staff than we did 5 years ago. St Marys is using the Gonzaga philosophy to beat us at our own game and they now have been able to study our every move for the last 10 years. We had problems "Manhan" ling Samhan when he was a frosh. It goes to show you that you can have awesome talent, brilliant coaches and elite facilities, but if the individuals goal is not the same as the teams or the schools, then we will never be the best we can be. I believe the true goals of the key players are individual stats and going to the NBA (that means $$$) rather than winning a conference or national championship for Gonzaga, let alone even understanding what being a Zag really is. To be honest, I only can exclude Sorenson, Downs and Pendo from this overly critical and stereotypical opinion.

Can anyone here even really argue that if this team would have the desire, hope, unselfishness and Gonzaga teamwork ethic that our 1997-2005 teams had, we would be undefeated right now?

RenoZag
01-02-2008, 05:25 PM
Overly critical, sterotypical. . .you left out your ability to see into the minds and hearts of the "key" players. . .

If you want to argue that SMC is better than GU, go for it, but posting tripe about players' "true goals" is a bunch of malarkey.

pbriz
01-02-2008, 05:32 PM
Overly critical, sterotypical. . .you left out your ability to see into the minds and hearts of the "key" players. . .

If you want to argue that SMC is better than GU, go for it, but posting tripe about player's "true goals" is a bunch of malarkey.

Thank you for putting into words exactly how I felt. Remember that SMC has only played one true road game and lost by a decent margin (somewhere between 10-15, i forget). We will see how good SMC is when they play at Texas in a couple days.

thickman1
01-02-2008, 05:33 PM
Right now I'm not sold on St. Mary's. They beat an Oregon team in Moraga that didn't have Bryce Taylor. Oregon has since gone out and lost at Nebraska and at Oakland. At the time the win looked better than it was. If they were to play now the win wouldn't have nearly the impact as it did when they originally played. Don't forget that St. Mary's got smacked at SIU. Now if they can go into Austin and beat the Longhorns on Saturday then I'll say they are a better team than GU but until that happens they are not better.

I won't even go into the injury situation but everyone knows that has played a major factor with this club to this point. Had Josh been around since the opening game I don't think we lose to Oklahoma, WSU, or Texas Tech.

Finally, if you were to switch the schedules I think GU could easily be 11-1 or whatever the Gaels are but I don't think St. Mary's would be 10-4. I don't think they beat UConn or St. Joes. I think they would have been beaten around by Oklahoma and WSU; Tennessee would have ran them out of the gym. Maybe they get by Texas Tech because Tech simply isn't that special.

ZagNative
01-02-2008, 05:50 PM
Yeah, I think you go too far in attributing motives you can't know. However, by the standards of recent posts on this board, yous is not out of line, IMO. We'll see after Texas.

SunDevilGolfZag
01-02-2008, 05:54 PM
Thank goodness we get to play SMC 2 or 3 times this year to find out who really is better. The results will be way better than talk;)

TennesseeFan07
01-02-2008, 05:56 PM
I'll say one thing, it will come down to Josh or Mills for WCC Player of the year. SM is an average squad that instantly become elevated due to the talent of Mills. Gonzaga doesn't have to rely on 1 player to win them a game. Zaga is deeper and more athletic than Saint Mary's. Now saying that, I will be surprised if both of these teams don't split during the regular season. But I take Zaga over SM in the WCC title game.

Zagdawg
01-02-2008, 06:13 PM
That's why they play the games--- Thank Goodness--

The Zags will be fine---

MedZag
01-02-2008, 06:18 PM
I believe the true goals of the key players are individual stats and going to the NBA (that means $$$) rather than winning a conference or national championship for Gonzaga, let alone even understanding what being a Zag really is.

What basis do you have for this assumption? Have you ever met or talked to any of the players? Have you ever hung out with them when they aren't playing basketball? Have you ever talked to them about their families, their dreams, anything like that?

Well I have, and to make that statement is a g*ddamn DISSERVICE and INSULT to every one of them. They bust their ASSES in the offseason, during the season, sacrificing health and sleep, they play through pain, all for the program and for Few and to provide some entertainment for ungrateful #####s like yourself.

alaskazagnut
01-02-2008, 06:26 PM
Chill out MEDZAG!!! I am so NOT ungrateful. I went to Gonzaga 6 years and 1 year in Florence. I am so grateful to Gonzaga that I never wanted to leave!!! Many of our basketball players are going to leave as soon as they can for the NBA if the money is there. I think they should because financial security is important. But what was more important to Adam Morrison....a Gonzaga national championship or the NBA? Turiaf knew what was. Just because you know them MedZag, does that mean you know everything about the team or the game?

I think that my opinion is based on human nature. My overly critical and stereotypical opinion thinks that most kids who are higly praised, recruited and hyped enter college or the real world thinking they are the most important. Some have well balanced and team first work ethics. But most are selfish and will primarily think of future financial gain.

Obviously I cannot "know" what anyones true motives are (DUH), and I am upset that we are not undefeated or even 12-2. But if you really consider the simplest explanation, I think with bigger egos comes less teamwork and with less teamwork comes less success. Did the USA 1980 Olympic Hockey team have better talent than the USSR? Did Appalacian State have better talent than Michigan? Does St Mary's have better talent than Oregon or ? I think not. But whatever it was the Zags had in 1998 our oponents seem to be learning from us.

We are losing the "component" of success that created the "Gonzaga Rule" in the first place, and it had nothing to do with Gonzaga having 4-5 star athletes or McDonalds All Americans. It was the almost scientific fact that the "Whole can be greater than the sum of the parts."

So sue me for thinking that other teams like St Mary's and WSU can get better by learning something from the "GONZAGA RULE". It is not Malarky.

El Voce
01-02-2008, 06:37 PM
What basis do you have for this assumption? Have you ever met or talked to any of the players? Have you ever hung out with them when they aren't playing basketball? Have you ever talked to them about their families, their dreams, anything like that?

Well I have, and to make that statement is a g*ddamn DISSERVICE and INSULT to every one of them. They bust their ASSES in the offseason, during the season, sacrificing health and sleep, they play through pain, all for the program and for Few and to provide some entertainment for ungrateful #####s like yourself.

Bravo, MedZag! Well put!

Tell Matt Bouldin, playing through great pain, that he is a "me first" guy. Tell Micah Downs, who has turned into a demon on defense, that he is a "me first" guy. Tell Pendo that he is a "me first" guy. Tell guys like Rob Sacre and Austin Daye, when they are on the bench cheering their hearts out, that they are "me first" guys. And the list could go on to include every other player.

In fact, the feature that has most impressed me about this year's team is their absolute refusal to give up, whether down a dozen to the Cougars, or 18 to Tennessee, or 17 to Texas Tech. It is a shame that anyone with a computer and a modem can write any type of crap about kids that they want, with absolutely no basis in fact.

This year's team has yet to jell. Despite the fact that they are 10-4, it is not enough for a certain segment of our spoiled fan base. Loses happen; they happen in any program. Accept it. Move on. Quit blaming 18, 19, 20, and 21 yearold kids for losing some really tough games against really tough teams.

At times, this board has turned into a cesspool of innuendo and falsehoods. I, for one, am fed up with the tripe some people attempt to pass as "facts". I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore!

MedZag
01-02-2008, 06:51 PM
Just because you know them MedZag, does that mean you know everything about the team or the game?

No, I do not. But what you are proposing isn't a questioning of their game or their skills or their performance on their court. What you propose is a direct attack on each player's integrity and desire. I don't like to bring up the fact I am friends with anyone on the team because I don't like the air anything from the guys' off court lives on this board - but when people unfairly assassinate their character on this board, something has to be said. These are great individuals who love the school and program more than any stat line and would gladly trade any personal glory for success for the team.

Nevtelen
01-02-2008, 07:00 PM
I'm with MedZag and the Voice of Reason on this. I think you can tell a selfish player who is auditioning for the NBA from one who is not, whether you know them or not. Playing through (probably considerable) pain, doing all the little things to help the team win, working hard and staying the course through a humiliating situation - these are the types of things "NBA tryout" players don't do. Whether or not they win or have a good game 1 outing to the next, I don't think any player on the team is just looking for the dollars.

I think you (alaskazagnut) are mistaking on-court chemistry for unselfishness. The Cougs (to cite one of your references) have been playing together for a very long time. They've become a very cohesive on-court unit. While this Zags team is apparently tight off the court, they just haven't had the time to develop the on-court chemistry. That lack of on-court cohesiveness is what you're mistaking for sefishness, IMO.

NanookZag
01-02-2008, 07:01 PM
How do you "know" what people are thinking or what their desires are? x Why don't you let us come to your work and see if you are a team player and maybe we can judge you by watching you "work" 10 times. At your work are you part of the whole or are you part of the whole? Do you perform certain tasks at work because you are thinking about your future? Or, for the good of the whole, do you give the assignments to someone else because that would be better for the whole? Chill out.

And honestly, how many of us, if they were put into the same situation as Ammo with the offer of a lottery pick, big cash, etc. would turn it down? If you, Zagnut, would then I presume you are in the very, very small minority. And don't compare Ronny to Ammo. Ronny did not have to choose between top three pick and Gonzaga.

GoZags
01-02-2008, 07:05 PM
.......It is a shame that anyone with a computer and a modem can write any type of crap about kids that they want, with absolutely no basis in fact.

This year's team has yet to jell. Despite the fact that they are 10-4, it is not enough for a certain segment of our spoiled fan base. Loses happen; they happen in any program. Accept it. Move on. Quit blaming 18, 19, 20, and 21 yearold kids for losing some really tough games against really tough teams.

At times, this board has turned into a cesspool of innuendo and falsehoods. I, for one, am fed up with the tripe some people attempt to pass as "facts". I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore!

Bingo.

MDABE80
01-02-2008, 07:06 PM
Zags play defense like they can and especially defend the 3, Zags win. I'm not worried. Defense will be a must! Shut down their PG, limit his mobility and Zags win.

dim4sum
01-02-2008, 07:06 PM
I think by now, everyone, including Josh and Pargo, are resigned to the fact that they will be back in the Zag lineup next year. Pargo just has too many flaws to his game that need to be corrected, and it will take more than a year. Remember there's a vast worldwide pool to choose from, including four or five pro point guard prospects in the junior ranks in the Baltic states alone.
Josh has to prove that he can stay healthy and out of trouble. If the Zags don't make the dance or go quietly in the first or second round, Josh will go unnoticed. Serbia and Croatia are factories for producing Josh-like clones.
That resignation about staying and playing hard may make the Zags a tougher , more cohesive team the rest of this season and into next.

alaskazagnut
01-02-2008, 07:10 PM
Bravo, MedZag! Well put!
At times, this board has turned into a cesspool of innuendo and falsehoods. I, for one, am fed up with the tripe some people attempt to pass as "facts". I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore!

How am I trying to pass my opinion as fact. Please. Just because you don't agree doesn't mean I shouldn't be concerned about "me first" issues in team chemistry or in amateur sports in general.

We are losing the "component" of success that created the "Gonzaga Rule" in the first place, and it had nothing to do with Gonzaga having 4-5 star athletes or McDonalds All Americans. It was the almost scientific fact that the "Whole can be greater than the sum of the parts."

Adam Morrison played through pain and gave his all as a true Zag. Does that mean the NBA was not his goal since he was 5 years old? Does that mean he still did not want to be a Zag ALSO since he was 5 years old. Not every player we recruit is an Adam. So you el Voce and Medzag, are telling me that blankly "ALL Zag athletes are pure and true Zags at heart and therefore individual goals should never be spoken of. How can you tell me that you KNOW what each and every player is thinking, how much heart they have or how badly they want a Zag championship first or an NBA rookie salary first. How can you know just as much as how can I know. Even "jazzdelmar" had a right to speak his unpopular views on this board.

Attack!!!! Attack all who dissent!!!! String em up!!! Ban them!!!!!

brasszag
01-02-2008, 07:15 PM
Some of us assume positive things about the guys on the team unless proven otherwise.

Some assume negative things on that same limited data set.

Ziggy
01-02-2008, 07:17 PM
According to kenpom, SMC's biggest wins are over San Diego St. and DRAKE !!! For criminy sake! And your basis for analysis is what? Fox's fan poll or something else as substantive? Maybe you should play your cards a little closer and reserve judgement, which is what you are making, until more water has passed under the bridge.

MedZag
01-02-2008, 07:21 PM
So you el Voce and Medzag, are telling me that blankly "ALL Zag athletes are pure and true Zags at heart and therefore individual goals should never be spoken of. How can you tell me that you KNOW what each and every player is thinking, how much heart they have or how badly they want a Zag championship first or an NBA rookie salary first. How can you know just as much as how can I know.

Oh I guarantee you that players on the squad have NBA aspirations. But you're saying that they are putting these aspirations ahead of wins and ahead of their teammates, and on that you are flatly wrong. These guys like each other and enjoy playing with each other more than a lot of squads in years past. There was a lot of dissension on the team the year Morrison blew up college basketball, but you never heard anyone conjecture about it or shake their fingers at it because chemistry on the court was going just fine. And I know for a fact Jeremy wants a national championship for this school more than anyone would ever believe (and he's come to love the school more than anyone would ever believe).

On your other point I agree with you. St Mary's IS playing better ball than the Zags right now in my opinion, and they are doing it in a way that does hearken back to our 90's squads. But I think nevtelen hit the nail on the head - I think you're mistaking problems with on-court chemistry for problems with desire and player's intentions.

MickMick
01-02-2008, 07:43 PM
There is a fine line that is easy to cross. The gist of it is "Do the criticisms seem personal?"

It is one thing to say a player lacks handles, hops, height, or speed. It is another to question a player's motives, agenda, or heart.

I see (and have repeatedly posted as such) great effort by this Zag team. I have yet to see them quit. Who knows if they will make post season play? Who knows if they are better than SMC? I guess we will just have to watch the season unfold.

Zag Nation is a little testy right now. We are not accustomed to 2 game losing skids or offensive struggles. But we do have hope....because this team has never quit on us.

Combine that attitude with team chemistry and imagine the possibilities.

alaskazagnut
01-02-2008, 07:45 PM
These are great individuals who love the school and program more than any stat line and would gladly trade any personal glory for success for the team.

Then they all will stay for their entire eligibilty and degree, instead of even thinking about oing early to the NBA.

How many kids do you think asked for Matt Santangelo's autograph when he was at GU. How many autographs did Ammo sign while he was at GU. If people don't think fame and forturne changes people then your are the ignorant ones.

Adam made the right choice, so did Turiaf. But if any of you think you would not change even if you won a million dollars, you are lying. The proof is there for most of the multi million dollar lottery winners who partly wish they never would have won the money. None of them say their lives are the same. What if you knew you were going to winn a million dollars in 3 years. Would you buy a bigger house sooner than later?

I went to GU for 7 years. I have been with the same company for 12 years. But pay me significantly more, and I will leave for another company.

I think the real problem here is that many of you are seethingly enraged that I think these kids are NOT AT ALL immune to fame and fortune.

So when Josh bought the contraband last year......... See your quote.

jaydee77
01-02-2008, 07:49 PM
I used to look forward to visiting this board to view the opinions of Hondo, Russell Robert, BobZag, DKRP and a few more. These guys, more than most, seemed to be able to offer credible insight to the Zag program. After reviewing the original post in this thread, it seems as if some posters are emulating a late night sports talk show on ESPN radio where callers can voice their unfounded opinions and present them as facts.

Face it, you can not know what motivates these players. I have no doubt they are playing as hard as they can every time on the court. Mark Few will accept nothing less.

The Zags may indeed lose a game to St. Mary's. We won't know until the game is over. One thing I do know for sure is that Mark Few is a better coach than anyone posting on this board. Lighten up and come see me in March

alaskazagnut
01-02-2008, 08:08 PM
it seems as if some posters are emulating a late night sports talk show on ESPN radio where callers can voice their unfounded opinions and present them as facts.

Face it, you can not know what motivates these players. I have no doubt they are playing as hard as they can every time on the court. Mark Few will accept nothing less.

jaydee77, If I can't have doubt how can you have no doubt. How do you KNOW that some athletes would never want to use Gonzaga's supposed "elite" status to help them get to the NBA? You believe or have faith. How do you know what motivates them to play at 110%.

I am more of a realist and therefore at times a pesimist about the human condition. So sue me.

Personally I get fed up with people posting our athletes "up to the minute" NBA mock draft status through the year 2010. I am fed up with the me first mentality of the NBA. There are exceptions with some NBA players and teams.

But don't think I can't have an opinion that our kids might succumb to the same issues or problems.

Radbooks
01-02-2008, 08:14 PM
I used to look forward to visiting this board to view the opinions of Hondo, Russell Robert, BobZag, DKRP and a few more. These guys, more than most, seemed to be able to offer credible insight to the Zag program. After reviewing the original post in this thread, it seems as if some posters are emulating a late night sports talk show on ESPN radio where callers can voice their unfounded opinions and present them as facts.

Face it, you can not know what motivates these players. I have no doubt they are playing as hard as they can every time on the court. Mark Few will accept nothing less.



Amen!

GoZags
01-02-2008, 08:16 PM
Zags are 10-4, having played what is currently the #12* most difficult schedule in the country (out of 341 D1 schools). They've played that schedule with critical pieces of the puzzle missing (or just coming back).

They've lost twice by 4 (to the #4 team in the nation and on the road at Oklahoma). They've lost twice by 10.

They've beaten schools from the ACC (Virginia Tech) and the Big East (UConn).

Sure seems to me to be reason to jump off the bridge, jump off the bandwagon or just think the kids and coaching staff aren't trying.

*per 1/2/08 collegerpi.com

Ziggy
01-02-2008, 08:21 PM
Alaska-The only possible solution to your indictment is that the program regress back into an under the radar program recruiting the ones that slip through the cracks and hoping to upset the "haves" while accepting mediocre seasons
because at least our boys have no further ambitions than playing D I and getting their diplomas. Hmmmm? Me thinks not!

billyberu
01-02-2008, 08:22 PM
Medication time, boys. Ya like to look at cards, Martini?

alaskazagnut
01-02-2008, 08:27 PM
Even with a few wingnut opinions like mine. So sue me. I read often and only post when it is important to me.

Plus, that is my opinion, opinions are made to be changed. Give better evidence to the contrary and I will always go with the best evidence. I did actually graduate from Gonzaga. I used to always think that I had to 100% believe that we as Zags have the superior ability by definition to be immune to any outside secular non-zag influences (whatever they are).

To be honest I was wrong to say "Their main goal is individual" in my first post. Individual performances are "possibly the main goal is individual" Sue me again.

Ezag
01-02-2008, 08:28 PM
I guess the only real way to know is when we play them in a few weeks

VinnyZag
01-02-2008, 08:30 PM
Methinks this is the kind of post BZ had in mind in his "old women" thread earlier this week.

Everybody needs to relax.

TR11Zag
01-02-2008, 08:33 PM
http://iceblog.puddingbowl.org/archives/old_women-thumb.JPG

ZagNative
01-02-2008, 08:33 PM
Folks, your chain is being jerked. It's the old pig-wrasslin' problem.

alaskazagnut
01-02-2008, 08:39 PM
Alaska-The only possible solution to your indictment is that the program regress back into an under the radar program

You would be surprised how many people on this board have said they prefer to be "under the radar". I personally have argued against that. I disagree, and I like our status and the fact the St Mary's' and WSU's (everyone for that matter) are gunning for us.

I want us to recruit and get top notch athletic talent at GU. But does anyone think that there isn't different chemistry with a bunch of NBA prospects then with not? Did Fitz, Monson and coach Few and staff not ever change, improve and evolve techniques and strategies to deal with the different individuals we get each year? Sometimes the coaching staff makes mistakes too. Maybe during a game, during a season or even during the offseason. Does everyone here really think that we are dealing with "SUPER HUMANS" at GU.

CDC84
01-02-2008, 08:43 PM
The only way to find out who is better - SMC or GU - is to have them square off. That will happen 2 times in the regular season, and likely a 3rd time in the postseason conference tourney.

Until they face each other, it's kind of a worthless discussion.

I do feel confident that if the Gaels had played GU's non-league sked, with all its travel and road games, they would probably have as many if not more losses than GU. The Gaels have only played one true road game (which didn't go so hot), and just one neutral floor game. They were 1-1 in those games.
But none of this really matters once league play starts up and the two teams go at it.

SMC has a big game at Texas on Saturday. I am really curious to see what happens. The Mills/Augustin matchup should be interesting. If the Gaels can get a few of the Horn starters in foul trouble, they might be able to take advantage of Texas' weak bench.

Rhettman
01-02-2008, 08:44 PM
I have been following the Zags for years.. never attended the school, never seen a game live, but I consider myself a fan.

I have lived in the Spokane area all my life and had grown weary of the woeful sports programs that the "Inland Empire" produced year after year.. all schools...all genders.

So ... when little Gonzaga made a splash in the basketball world, I was all over it...yet I still suspected that it was a flash in the pan, I'd seen it before..never last.. who are we kidding...enjoy it while you can.

But then the unthinkable happened... they kept winning.. new coach...new players.. it just kept getting better....BRAVO !!!

Now I see all this desention... we need to quit being cocky.. we need to focus... forget about the NBA.. play for gonzaga.....:confused:

The Zags are where they are because of where they came from.. never go back to what you were...go on to what you can become.

Don't forget about the NBA, most of these kids have had that dream since gradeschool... some will make it, most won't, but it's still THEIR DREAM.

I really think that some of you have become quite skeptical of one of the top programs in the country... lucky to have a dedicated coach Like Few, and lucky to have this kind of drawing power for recruits...go ahead and complain, whine and pine. But the true Zag fans will keep the faith, trust the decisions, and watch the games ( TG for that TV deal)... Oh yea.. we'll still read the board... just to see what perceived "problem" the Naysayers have dreamed up this week ;) :)

alaskazagnut
01-02-2008, 08:55 PM
Nobody is arguing against my point that teams change in chemistry every year and especially when 4-5 star high schoolers make up half the team. The only thing people don't like is me saying it might be affecting our team negatively. St. Mary's is a better team right now in my opinion. They have played us very tough the last 3 years. We lucked out a couple times too. So did they. But I believe their teamwork is better and more closeknit then ours is right now.

It is funny how my rating went from 3 green to 3 red in about 1 hour. Why don't you just make mine black for "black listed".

Forget that I have been a member of this board for over 5 years.

zag67
01-02-2008, 08:59 PM
I would like to first say that I agree with Med and many of the others about the team.

So Zagnut, I think that you might be missing that when a "team" loses their best center (Josh for 10 games), a primary backup point/shooting guard (Steven for 10 games), and one of their planned backup big men (Theo for the season to family), they are not going to play at the level that you were planning. Now that they are back, they will be using the next few weeks in getting to know each other. When that happens I think then we will start seeing the team chemistry that is needed to win at the level they are playing. I also believe that we will beat SM at least 2 times.

Now, are some of these players wanting to go onto the pros, YES. That is the reason that they came here. They wanted to play with and practice against other good players and have a set of coaches that prepare them to possilby go to the next level. Is that not the reason that you (Zagnut) and many others (including myself) came to Gonzaga? Some came to go to the next level in basketball, others it is law, engineering, math, business and so on. Gonzaga prepared me for my job, you for your job, the same way that these players want to be prepared for their job. Now, some may never be good enough to go to the pros and others may be good enough to go in their Junior year, and my feeling is more power to them. I would like them to stay, but turning down a multi million dollar contract, when you think about the chance of getting injuried and getting nothing is another possibility, then maybe their decision is not so bad. Hopefully all of them are understanding that a college education is important no matter whether they make it in the pros or not. And Gonzaga is giving them a good one to prepare them for after their basketball career (whether college or pro).

alaskazagnut
01-02-2008, 09:16 PM
I agree with you 100%.
But what do you think some of the negative effects are when having highly recruited and ego stroked athletes make up half your team. Some people do not want to think that any Zag might be less of a Zag for being slightly selfish. Was Monson selfish? Did he make the right decision? Ammo? Paul Rogers? Josh and Theo?

All I did was voice my opinion that our team may become more "me" than "team".

I will always worry about that with the future NBA'ers we will be getting. What is wrong with me worrying about that. I also think we could be a final 4 team right now. But we might not make the tourney if we cant get it together. Be it injuries, chemistry, slumps or attitude.


If Mark Few can coach kids like this then he will have the problem all coaches want to have, like Coach K, Bobby Knight, Roy Williams, or even John Wooden. Few does not yet have the same experience like these guys yet. But he is getting there.

VinnyZag
01-02-2008, 09:19 PM
What's bothering people is that you questioned the heart, commitment and work ethic of these kids. I've watched just about every game this year (except for one or two of the ESPNFU games), and I simply haven't seen what you've seen. Not even close to it.

Zagster
01-02-2008, 09:20 PM
Really .. . . The Zags are 10-4. If they lose to Memphis and 2 league games they could end up 27-5. Maybe even 25 -7. What a bunch a selfish individuals. With only 2 seniors and the rest underclassmen, we can not stand for performance like this. . .. What am I missing.... Maybe we need real GU fans...

alaskazagnut
01-02-2008, 09:30 PM
Maybe someone should have got on Josh's or Theo's case last year a little more about heart. Did coach Few question Josh or Theo heart? If so did they listen? I question most of humanity. I also do not really even trust my children will be there for me when I am old a burden so why should I have pure blind faith in amateur athletes. They are human too. It is easy to jump on the hater bandwagon when questioning motives of people. I see how jazzdelmar felt when he was not mainstream with his opinions. And I usually disagreed with him. But most still defended his right to have his opinion.

CDC84
01-02-2008, 09:40 PM
I wouldn't want a player coming to my basketball program as a major recruit who didn't WANT to become a NBA prospect or a pro player somewhere in the world. I want people with that kind of ambition. Just because someone wants to become a NBA prospect doesn't mean he has to behave selfishly on the college basketball floor like Arizona's Marcus Williams did last year. They can also be JP Batista, a player who, according to Mark Few, chose Gonzaga because he felt it was the best place for him to develop into a pro prospect. Yes, the education and the spiritual focus of the school were also the right fit, but he came to GU to play ball.

Mark Few was asked on a coaches show a few year's back how he dealt with Ronny Turiaf and other Zags that have NBA aspirations. Few didn't view it as a bad thing. What he tries to do is convince his kids that the best way to make it to the NBA is to do what the staff and their teammates ask of them. What the staff wants are the kinds of the things that will help Gonzaga be a better team. Few views it as a win win situation. For instance, in order for Austin Daye to succeed at the next level, he has to get stronger and tougher. Guess what? Gonzaga needs him to be stronger and tougher to be a better college team. The Zags play a style that translates very well to the NBA, so just about anything the staff asks of its players is going to help them at the next level. I think it also goes without saying that Few wants to see as many of his players make it to the NBA as possible as well - not only because he cares about them as people, but also because it's a great program seller.

People can beat the "team chemistry" drum all they want, but Randy Bennett and SMC aren't going to win a national title unless they get more great players, and Randy knows that as well as anyone. As much as conference play matters, the ultimate goal of every D-1 team is to cut down the nets at the final 4. You must have NBA talent to do that, even if it may not produce a team that has the "team chemistry" of that 1999 Zag team.

I said before the season that this team would be Few's toughest coaching job ever. He's dealing with talent and depth he's never had before. It's his first time handling it. The injury problems have not helped him. This is kind of new territory for him, but he's going to get the job done. He's too good as a coach.

VinnyZag
01-02-2008, 09:49 PM
Maybe someone should have got on Josh's or Theo's case last year a little more about heart. Did coach Few question Josh or Theo heart? If so did they listen? I question most of humanity. I also do not really even trust my children will be there for me when I am old a burden so why should I have pure blind faith in amateur athletes. They are human too. It is easy to jump on the hater bandwagon when questioning motives of people. I see how jazzdelmar felt when he was not mainstream with his opinions. And I usually disagreed with him. But most still defended his right to have his opinion.

Nobody's saying you don't have the right to an opinion. We're just disagreeing with you.

CarolinaZagFan
01-02-2008, 10:00 PM
First of all, everyone who plays basketball dreams of playing in the NBA. Even myself, a now 5'11 person who can't jump, barely dribble, and an average shot..would spend hours i my driveway dreaming of playing in the NBA. However, I also spent as much time if not more doing the 5,4,3,2,1 and hitting the game-winning shot to win a National Championship. I'm sure these guys are the same way. I'm a student at East Carolina University and my best friend plays basketball and I hang out with several players a lot. ECU sucks at basketball but even some of them think they can play in the NBA. Anyways, I hope all of our players stay all four years, but if some of our Zags have the opportunity to immediately make millions in the NBA I can't blame them and I would wish them the best.

But I just don't see how we can question the heart of great kids who bust their asses all year long for our enjoyment. Stop being so ungrateful and just enjoy watching them play the GAME with great skill and heart. I still think this could be a special season. We haven't peaked yet, I'll take a December loss over one in March anyday.

By the way, two weeks ago I went to the Panthers-Cowboys game and sat in my cousins Box and saw Ammo. I told him I didn't want to bug him but I've been a Zags fan since 8th grade. He was the nicest guy in the world and talked to me for awhile and not about the NBA but about how much he loved the University and how good he thought this team could be when healthy. He didn't say it but I think he wishes he would've stayed. I'm pretty sure all of our players shares this love for the school and want to be a part of something special such as our first Final Four.

rawkmandale
01-02-2008, 10:09 PM
Thanks for sharing that, CarolinaZagFan.

alaskazagnut
01-02-2008, 10:25 PM
I never would have questioned heart or desire in the past until last year, Josh and Theo exposed something that either has always been there or something that came with kids who think they are "locks" for the NBA. I was jaded for many years, now I am a pesimist.

Purezag
01-02-2008, 10:42 PM
one night a yr...maybe. Alaska I believe your brain may be frozen. These GU players, every one of them, care about each other and are all about winning. None of the NBA prospects on this team are distracted by thoughts of the League. Not even close.

In today's game even selfish players are smart enough to realize what if you have the talent the scouts will find you. Believe me, NBA ability can't hide anymore. Players with high character that show the ability to lift their team to the next level will forge ahead of equally talented players on draft day. Go to the FF, win the National Championship and the NBA scouts will give them more love then they deserve.

I know many GU fans feel like GU should be better then 10-4 but let's not get carried away. Gu has played a high level schedule with some tough road games. They have had success while overcoming several significant injuries. They have practiced together with their whole team for approximately a week.

St Mary's is 12-1. Their record is 1-1 against Oregon and Southern Illinois, the two "quality" teams on their schedule thus far. Even these two teams could have their quality questioned considering Oregon is barely sniffing the top 40 and SIU is currently sporting a record of 6-6, including a comfortable 71-58 win over the Gaels.

St Marys has a good team and if they play well against GU this yr they could win one out of three against them. But a 2-1 or certainly a 3-0 sweep over GU is laughable. Let's face it, sometimes 10-4 is better than 12-1.

VinnyZag
01-02-2008, 10:52 PM
Yeah, last year was rough. But just in my opinion, I haven't seen much to complain about in terms of effort this year.

I always have to remind myself, too, that these are teenage and early-20s kids. There's a lot going on with those guys, they're not always emotionally mature, etc. Good lord, I couldn't imagine a 20-year-old VinnyZag dealing with the pressure these kids deal with all the time.

All I'm saying is, give 'em a chance.

ZagsGoZags
01-02-2008, 11:12 PM
"if the individuals goal is not the same as the teams or the schools, then we will never be the best we can be. I believe the true goals of the key players are individual stats and going to the NBA (that means $$$) rather than winning a conference or national championship for Gonzaga, let alone even understanding what being a Zag really is. To be honest, I only can exclude Sorenson, Downs and Pendo"

the above is a quote from the original post

all I see in it is an opinion, and not a personal attack
he says "I believe ..." so he marks it as his opinion

who started this are those who move to attacking the person with an opinion
"I may hate your opinion, but I will fight to protect your right to say it" - would be a good guideline for us all to follow on this wonderful discussion Board

who is out of line here, in my opinion is MedZag who starts hurling names and profanity, as if this person's opinion was one that should never have been uttered. This moves the conversation from intellect to emotion.

Medzag, you mention the good motives of Downs and Pendo as part of your attack, but did you read his post? He mentions them also as having good motives.

Anyway, I think the way to disagree with somebody's opinions is to respectfully give your reasons against, not start an emotion based attack on the individual with the opinion

This board is not solely a booster club, but it has room for that, too.
Thank you moderators for letting us discuss what we think is respectful disagreement with each others opinion, and what that would look like.

WallaWallaZag
01-02-2008, 11:37 PM
all I see in it is an opinion, and not a personal attack
he says "I believe ..." so he marks it as his opinion

who started this are those who move to attacking the person with an opinion
"I may hate your opinion, but I will fight to protect your right to say it" - would be a good guideline for us all to follow on this wonderful discussion Board



What makes you think an opinion cannot also be a personal attack?
Example: "Zagsgozags, I believe you are a complete moron and suck!" Is that not my opinion but also a personal attack???
BTW -- That was just an example...sorry, no offense meant =).

Ziggy
01-02-2008, 11:48 PM
No, I do not. But what you are proposing isn't a questioning of their game or their skills or their performance on their court. What you propose is a direct attack on each player's integrity and desire. I don't like to bring up the fact I am friends with anyone on the team because I don't like the air anything from the guys' off court lives on this board - but when people unfairly assassinate their character on this board, something has to be said. These are great individuals who love the school and program more than any stat line and would gladly trade any personal glory for success for the team.

What MedZag says here is the heart of this thread. What AlaskaZagNut is doing is casting aspersions or more specifically character assassination. Opinions must have a basis in fact or they are just imaginings. AZN cannot possibly know any facts about these young men's intentions. As he so freely admits he's stereotyping and he's a pessimist. Not a very good stance from which to deliver "opinions". That's my opinion. And no, you may not sue me, thank you very much. Good night...

WallaWallaZag
01-02-2008, 11:54 PM
alaska -- i wouldn't have a problem if you questioned the entire team's heart and desire, especially say, after the texas tech game...but you are essentially singling individuals out: you are questioning austin daye's heart and desire simply because he was a 5 star recruit. hey, i don't doubt that past present and future zags have had, have, and will have personal motivations that might not coincide with the best interests of the team, but you are making assumptions about individual players based on, as you say, stereotypes, etc. i am not even saying that your assumptions are wrong, but i think the way you are phrasing your words make it a personal attack on anyone who is a 4-5 start recruit, without anything other than assumptions to base your opinions. when it appears that you are singling individual zags out, especially without any evidence to back up your opinions, simply assumptions, well...i have to question your judgement on making such a post.

ZagsGoZags
01-03-2008, 12:11 AM
Dear Walla Walla,
I think you make a good point, an opinion can be a personal attack
Alaska's point of view would be much better if he had said
something like, based on fewer assists, which backs up my observation that this team has more individual-oriented players than team players,
I believe they are probably motivated by NBA stardom

that would have been better

But what he said, I think is defensible also, because he says he believes the reason this team does not exhibit the unselfishness of old, is individual motivation for stats and the NBA

lots of posts here have discussed the apparent less amount of passing and looking for the open man

So he has a belief about what is motivating those players.
he stated that belief in public

that is a lot different than a direct name calling, emotional based attack on the speaker of those beliefs, IMHO

Last year a number of my colleagues speculated on Josh's motivations (before he got in legal trouble), and one of the theories was NBA focus, and perhaps 'looking past' GU too much. It was based on his actions, not just imaginings. The team this year has sometimes looked like Dribble, Pass, then somebody decides he is Going in Alone. (I would not say that characterizes the team in the last two games myself - and perhaps only a little before). Yet Alaska's belief is based on behaviors that he names.

Thanks for the discussion, respectfully, everyone. I like this board and think this attempt at defining what is acceptable, and not acceptable in the way of posting our thoughts, is very educational. For me, at least. I want to understand how much dissent is allowed.

alaskazagnut
01-03-2008, 02:43 AM
The only 3 I singled out in my opinion were for positive reasons. When did I ever single out Daye just because he was a 4-5 star recruit? No, I single out no names only generalizations of recruits our staff can or will potentially sign. 5 years ago Few might not have been able to sign Daye. The entire team and program is changing as well as the coaching staff and FAN BASE!!!

Walla walla, Zagsgozags only "sees" my opinion not being an attack. He does not think that all opinions cannot be attacks. If any thing I attacked the "me first" mentality I see in 90% of every NBA players. Hence, I attack that mentality coming from a pool of NBA prospects in the NCAA and Europe. Hence, I attack that coming from an even larger pool of high school wanna be's. And hence I attack that mentality coming from fans and family who over emphasize cash and self realization through thier children rather than an education and long term success. Some stock brokers or computer programers make way more than DD or Frahm do in the NBA. Turiaf exemplifies rags to riches the possibilties for anyone with desire in this country. He cannot fall into any other category or be compared to anyone else that I have ever seen before.

Heck, look at the post from zagnut08 only hours ago!!! "Josh projected 2008 first round pick". Gee, way to pump up our athletes to leave. What is wrong with me doing the opposite and challenging them to keep their eyes on the current prize!!! A championship!!! A thing I think we have the pieces to accomplish but maybe not with the abilities or determination as a team.

How about a mock draft (mock graduation) of who will play 4-5 years and recieve a degree from Gonzaga!!! How about that?!?!

23dpg
01-03-2008, 05:52 AM
Alaskazagnut wrote:

Heck, look at the post from zagnut08 only hours ago!!! "Josh projected 2008 first round pick". Gee, way to pump up our athletes to leave. What is wrong with me doing the opposite and challenging them to keep their eyes on the current prize!!

Nothing we post here will have any affect on whether players comeback for another year or enter the draft.

brasszag
01-03-2008, 07:03 AM
Alaskazagnut - what would do for proof of these guys being team oriented at this very second?

What data would suffice?

I'd like to know what evidence constitutes the threshold between you deciding that they are selfish and spoiled versus team oriented?

Psychozag
01-03-2008, 07:44 AM
While you are questioning motives, maybe you should question your own. You titled the thread "St. Mary's is better team than GU", not "GU's team needs to be better Zags" or whatever. Maybe it is the thought that another WCC team could actually challenge us, or worse yet we won't go to the dance without winning the conference tournament that is really getting to you. How could another WCC team have the audacity to give us a run for our money? Either way, we will know come March just how much better St. Mary's is.

dim4sum
01-03-2008, 07:46 AM
nba ability is being tapped at the elementary school level, believe it or not.
The scouts were whispering Steve Hawes, Martell Webster, Aaron Brooks and Brandon Roy way back before their first peach fuzz.
Look where they are now.
Now there's this Garfield High (seattle) kid, Tony Wroten Jr., who's barely 14 and the scouts are drooling over him. Next stop is dna testing at birth to identify the lottery picks. What I'm saying is that the element of surprise has been lifted from the draft. There are the rare exceptions like a Nash or a Stockton, but if Josh is among the chosen ones and he truly wants out, cest la vie.

BobZag
01-03-2008, 08:43 AM
St Marys is better than Gonzaga. If we continue with this "staus quo" they will beat us 3 times this year. Then 3 times next year also. That kinda perterbs me because we have far greater talent "on paper" with a better coaching staff than we did 5 years ago. St Marys is using the Gonzaga philosophy to beat us at our own game and they now have been able to study our every move for the last 10 years. We had problems "Manhan" ling Samhan when he was a frosh. It goes to show you that you can have awesome talent, brilliant coaches and elite facilities, but if the individuals goal is not the same as the teams or the schools, then we will never be the best we can be. I believe the true goals of the key players are individual stats and going to the NBA (that means $$$) rather than winning a conference or national championship for Gonzaga, let alone even understanding what being a Zag really is. To be honest, I only can exclude Sorenson, Downs and Pendo from this overly critical and stereotypical opinion.

Can anyone here even really argue that if this team would have the desire, hope, unselfishness and Gonzaga teamwork ethic that our 1997-2005 teams had, we would be undefeated right now?

No previous Gonzaga team has had injuries that prevented its best player and its first-off-the-bench player from playing. When Gonzaga did have its best player injured (Dickau, broken finger, 2000-01) Gonzaga lost something like 4 out of 5 games, or was it 5 out of 6? Anyway, some good teams would crumble with two-thirds of their best six players out, and others would suffer worse than GU. Some can't even absorb the loss of one player graduating. See Oregon.

Zags will be just fine when the healed get caught up and the team begins to form.