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HOOTER
12-29-2007, 02:22 PM
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to give the Zag's a pass for losing yet another important game, but the officiating in the BIS today was pathetic at best. Tennessee was playing beyond physical, plowing through who they wanted to when they wanted to, without so much as a second look from the officials. The Zag's have found interesting ways to lose this year, but this is the first loss of the year, in my opinion, that the officials have played a major role in the outcome. That being said, the Zag's can't use that as an excuse. The WCC is stronger than it's been in a long time and this could get out of control quickly unless they identify and deal with their weaknesses. I remain hopeful that they will get it together, but my faith, along with the faith of Zag fans everywhere, is being tested big time.

Zag 77
12-29-2007, 02:28 PM
Was that part of the deal to get Tennessee to play? I have to agree with Hooter. No doubt UT was a more physical team than we are used to (we will learn from this) but despite the FT's we got, they seemed to flatten our guys and we would get hosed on charging/blocking situations.

The two goaltending calls were crap on TV replay.

ZagMania
12-29-2007, 02:29 PM
I didn't have a problem with the officials letting the game become so physical except that we had some ticky tacky foul calls on us which was absurd with how much Tennesse was getting away with.

oczagfan
12-29-2007, 02:29 PM
I think the crazy rotation was a contributor as well ... why take out the guys that went on the tear to cut the lead (just to yank them) and put back in the same guys who gave up a 9 point lead in the first place? I DON'T GET IT!

mtzaga
12-29-2007, 02:33 PM
UT makes 10 3's and shoots 49.5%. Yup...it's the refs' fault we lost.

theothegreat21
12-29-2007, 02:34 PM
Totally agree with you oc, the rotation today was awful. But this is the kind of officiating that we need. Come NCAA tournament time, games are going to be physcial and we are going to need to come and be able to handle it. So what if you get hit on the wrist and dont get a call, go down and hit them on the wrist. Instead many of our players complain, but really should just be getting much more physical themself. This team needs to get tough and be able to play against SEC and Big 12 teams which are physical and beat you up

thickman1
12-29-2007, 02:38 PM
I didn't have a problem with the officials letting the game become so physical except that we had some ticky tacky foul calls on us which was absurd with how much Tennesse was getting away with.

The one sequence that really comes to mind was the obvious charge late in the game that Josh took (that was a no-call) and then Austin gets dinged for a ticky-tack hand check at the free-throw line. It seemed as though Fran was biting his tongue for awhile there but at the end had to come out and say that a call had to be made - too much contact. What can you do though? When Jeremy went to the rack along the baseline he was called for a charge so it really looked like it wasn't going both ways. Also, don't forget the nice arm grabs on Josh (first half) and Pendo (second half).

Even with all of that going on the team still had their opportunities to win today. So many questions with answer that will probably never come. Why the crazy rotation? Where was Micah? Why does the offense look so dang stagnant? Move, screen, pass! Do something! Don't just watch Jeremy dribble around all the time.

HOOTER
12-29-2007, 02:57 PM
UT makes 10 3's and shoots 49.5%. Yup...it's the refs' fault we lost.

That's not what I'm saying, smarty. Although officiating can have a major impact on the outcome of a game, and I believe it did in this game, I made it clear that the Zag's can't use that as an excuse. They should have found a way to pull this one off, despite the officials. They have a ton of room for improvement and we can't keep waiting for that to happen at some later date. The time is now. I'm just so sick and tired of the incompetence and/or bias of officials getting completely ignored.

bigblahla
12-29-2007, 03:05 PM
When is a foul a foul?

I always thought that if you slapped down on someone's wrist it was a foul. Did they change the rule and no one told me? I saw five in the first half by UT that were obvious on TV and the Refs were looking right at the plays.

The Vols may have won this one without the Refs as their hustle was awesome but you can't make plays if you're not on the floor because of fouls.

Both this game and the OU game the Zags got mugged. The officiating in D1 is really inconsistent.

Go!! Zags!!!

zag69
12-29-2007, 03:10 PM
In my sport (fencing) I teach my students that they have to compete against their opponent and the ref...they need to learn very quickly how the rules are being applied and the actions interpreted, and take corrective action. Be smart, guys.

Bulldog
12-29-2007, 03:12 PM
Excuses don't put points on the board.

Zag365
12-29-2007, 03:27 PM
The non-calls in the first half and early second half (combined with the miscalls against GU) completely took us out of our came. Our guys really fought hard but the refs didn't allow us to play by the same rules at Tenn. So, our physical players (Pendo, Pargo, Heytvelt) had to be very tentative because it was hard to tell when a foul would be called against them (and, in a game like this we could not afford to have them in foul trouble). On the other hand, you could see that Tenn was very confident that they could hold, claw, push, forearm, charge, and body at will. If you look at the box score, you might think the refs were evenhanded by the number of fouls called, but it was too little, too late (and it doesn't show the noncalls). The game was over by mid-second half because of the style of officiating.

A different set of officials and it would have been a different game. We've got to be the most dangerous 9-4 team in the country.

In our section we were trying to figure out what conference the refs came from. Given the "relaxed" contact rules for Tenn, the consensus was the Big 12. Until I got home and read this board, I didn't realize that they were SEC officials. Wow, I guess that was the price we paid to get Tenn to play in Seattle.

darkness
12-29-2007, 03:29 PM
The game was physical and although we may have not had some calls go our way, we need to adapt and use that to our advantage. We never got as physical as Tennessee and it showed. They were tougher on the boards and on loose balls. Our perimeter defense continues to be our achilles heel and our lineup rotation worked against us. Sticking with 5 or 6 guys on the court for a prolonged amount of time might be good for us as we are back at full strength and beginning to get our chemistry back.

HOOTER
12-29-2007, 03:36 PM
We never got as physical as Tennessee

We never got as physical as Tennessee because the officials established early and often that they weren't going to let us. Every time the Zag's tried to step up their physicality they were called for some ticky-tack foul. The ref's made it very clear that the rules for the Zag's were different than the rules for Tennessee.

oldzagfan
12-29-2007, 03:38 PM
I agree with the discussion about how the Zags were outlplayed, etc. However, the officiating was deplorable. We got homered. The missed calls in favor of Tennessee were obvious! I can handle getting beat by a team ranked as highly as Tennessee, but the cheating SEC puke refs irk me. We had a shot down the stretch, but the no-calls iced it for the vols.

HOOTER
12-29-2007, 03:42 PM
In my sport (fencing) I teach my students that they have to compete against their opponent and the ref...they need to learn very quickly how the rules are being applied and the actions interpreted, and take corrective action. Be smart, guys.

It shouldn't be this way. Poor officiating can absolutely destroy a basketball game, and call into question the outcome. Ref's absolutely must be held accountable for their actions. All I am asking for is consistency and fairness. Is that too much to ask?

dim4sum
12-29-2007, 04:03 PM
This tweaking of the lineup could help:
Heytveldt starts over Kuso (let it happen sooner, rather than later).
Daye starts instead of Pendo whose hustle is always offset by dumb fouls.
Pargo gats yanked for Gray--Gray needed more minutes and a few plays here and there run for him.

TheBunnieRancher
12-29-2007, 04:07 PM
I definitely felt the officiating favored UT. I think the officials cut them a lot of slack because they are used to watching them play all out all the time. IMHO, officiating will always favor a more aggresive committed squad especially when they are familiar with how you play. Was it fair? Not from where I was sitting. Would it have changed the outcome of the game if a more neutral crew was there and called a even-handed game? I doubt it. UT just plain outplayed our boys. The announcers repeatedly stated throughout the game that GU must play UT full out the entire game if they wanted to win the game and true to their nature so far this season they just didn't. We have yet to learn how to play 40 full minutes of hard nosed basketball and, until we do, we will continue to watch them fall short against the big boys. The Final Four will never come this year or next until they commit to 40 full out minutes of reckless abandon. :(

strikezag
12-29-2007, 04:11 PM
blame the officiating? what a tired cliche. simple truth? Tennessee is the better team.

SunDevilGolfZag
12-29-2007, 04:16 PM
Plain and simple, we don't play hard enough on every play. We're soft. Refs had a few questionable calls but did not impact the outcome.

HOOTER
12-29-2007, 05:13 PM
Plain and simple, we don't play hard enough on every play. We're soft. Refs had a few questionable calls but did not impact the outcome.

I agree somewhat. They didn't play hard enough, that's undeniable. I believe this game was winnable despite the poor officiating, but to say the officiating didn't impact the outcome is laughable. Officiating impacts the outcome of every game to some extent. One bad call can change a game dramatically. Bad calls put players on the bench who wouldn't be otherwise, give teams undeserved points at the line, and completely change the tempo of a game. You and strike can give incompetent officials a free pass if you want to, but I (along with many others on this board) am not at all willing to do so.

bartruff1
12-29-2007, 06:10 PM
blame the officiating? what a tired cliche. simple truth? Tennessee is the better team. We was robbed !!!:lmao:

ZaggyZaggerson
12-29-2007, 06:21 PM
They missed so much. Let so much go today in the BIS. They were deplorable. Very inconsistent. Very biased.

So many things they let go at one end and didn't let go at the other.

Not a goaltend on Josh. The foul on Gray at the end of the first half came before the time ran out (it's clear on video). The list goes on...but mainly they changed the rhythm of game for the Zags.

They allowed Tennessee to put hands all over the Zags and no touching at the other end. Don't get me started on the blocking/charge calls. OMG.

I don't understand how SEC officials were allowed to do this game. They took control of the game in a bad way. Awful ...I don't know how they are allowed to officiate at the NCAA level.

They looked bought. Was this some old-Deep South payoff?

Still, Zags need to play better. But the officials dictated the game in horrible ways.

volfan27
12-29-2007, 07:20 PM
ft attempts:
gu-28
ut-15

ZagNut08
12-29-2007, 07:30 PM
that stat is meaningless

SunDevilGolfZag
12-29-2007, 07:31 PM
Fran Frischilla always seems to have a good handle on on what was a good call and what wasn't. I only heard him analyze one call as missed all game and I think he was right on every time. Time to swallow all the sour grapes and admit we were not good enough today to beat Tennesee no matter where the refs were from.

Loftonfor3
12-29-2007, 07:33 PM
Well put Volfan27. If anyone is going to blame the officials, it should be Tennessee. You all played a good game, and it's sad when you have to blame the refs for your loss. I'm not going to get in a pissing match. Good luck to you the rest of the season. I'm very thrilled we were able to come out of Seattle with a win. It's a tough place to play even though it wasn't your home gym.

P.S. You guys are HUGE!

HOOTER
12-29-2007, 07:34 PM
ft attempts:
gu-28
ut-15

fascinating, but not the point. Not even close. It's really more about the calls that weren't made. Gonzaga should have had twice as many attempts, while most of Tennessee's ft attempts were based on ridiculous calls that should have never been made. Gonzaga played a clean game while Tennessee was more physical than your average SEC football team. It's important to consider when and why calls were made. Gonzaga going to the line more than Tennessee only tells a small part of the story.

HOOTER
12-29-2007, 07:46 PM
You all played a good game, and it's sad when you have to blame the refs for your loss.

Your right. It's very sad. There's this notion that it's unacceptable to hold ref's accountable for their actions and I'm not quite sure where it began. Are we to just ignore everything they do regardless of who suffers and who benefits? I guess so. I look forward to the day when officials are held to a certain standard and are made to answer for the things they do but I'm afraid that as long as people are willing to give them a pass and make excuses for them that day will never come.

ZagMania
12-29-2007, 08:03 PM
Well put Volfan27. If anyone is going to blame the officials, it should be Tennessee. You all played a good game, and it's sad when you have to blame the refs for your loss.

Thats laughable. First off, were not all blaming the refs for the loss. I think they did an okay job, but to say that Tennessee got hosed because we shot more free throws is ridiculous and pretty stupid. You realize your team takes a ton of jump shots, do you honestly expect to shoot more free throws when your opponent? Especially when your opponent made a conscious effort to get the ball into the post, even by posting up with there stronger guards. Plus on defense your guys are constantly taking swipes at the ball going for the steals, which is why you guys got so many turnovers and points off of them. However, that style of play is also going to come with more foul calls.

So if the officials were so bad for the Vols what calls did they miss? I distinctly remember two times when intentional fouls should have been definitely called where Heytvelt's and Pendo's arms were grabbed and pushed down to the point they fell to the ground. The goal tending calls on JH were definitely bad calls, but thats probably such a hard call to make in game speed. Then there was the blocking calls on JH and Daye that should have definitely been charges and the analysts agreed.

Good game and good luck the rest of the season.

ZaggyZaggerson
12-29-2007, 08:15 PM
Most of those FTs came after the officials already affected the game Rocky Top. That stat is meaningless if you watched the game Rocky Top.

BillVol
12-29-2007, 08:28 PM
It was a very physical game both ways IMO with many fouls that could have been called. I thought there were several times when the Zags were on our backs when we were rebounding.

I hate winning a game when the refs were a major factor, but I just didn't think they were today.

TennesseeFan07
12-29-2007, 08:42 PM
Well, I really though there was some bad calls both ways. I felt like at the beginning of the game UT was really getting a lot of calls, but felt like it balanced out through the course of the game. The foul at the end of the half happened with .1 left, but I'm glad they ommitted it. I would be saying the same thing if it happend to UT, it wasn't worth calling a foul on something that happened 60 feet away from the basket. The block that Heytfelt had was nasty. They should have let that one stand, he made a great effort. The ball went out of bounds anyway so it's not like you all would have had a fastbreak for a 4 point swing, I think they should have rewarded him for such a great individual effort. There was other calls that I didn't agree with for both sides but I won't bother you guys and take your time to point them out because we all know there was some flaws during the game. You just have to play through them at times.

ZagNative
12-29-2007, 08:45 PM
Bruce didn't think much of the SEC officials, but at least he has a sense of humor:

Prince got to the line six times in the final minute. And there was another drive that got blocked and left Pearl howling for a foul that wasn't called.

Gonzaga shot 28 free throws, Tennessee 15.

"Is this unbelievable? SEC officials!'' Pearl asked the crowd behind his bench in the final minute.

"They don't like you, Coach,'' came the reply.

"Would you like me?'' Pearl shot back. "I'm a jerk.''

I love this guy. Can't help myself. Read more here in volsxtra.com (http://www.govolsxtra.com/news/2007/dec/29/pick-your-poison-with-new-look-vols/).

ZagManFan
12-29-2007, 08:50 PM
Total fouls....

Tennessee 24
Gonzaga 17

There were some iffy ones yes, but come on. I do agree with the goaltending ones. They were crap, but they made the Key Arena come to life.

rockytopps
12-29-2007, 08:51 PM
Isn't it funny...the different perspectives depending on who you are for? I watched the game here in Nashville on television with my father and brother and yes there were a couple of calls on both sides that were questionable to us. Every game is pretty much like that. But overall, it felt like to us that our guys couldn't even look at a Zag without getting whistled for a foul. I guess I need to watch the game over again or something because it was 2 to 1 free throw attempts it seemed to me. A couple of times Tyler Smith was mauled under the basket by three Zags and no whistle but we attempt to slap the ball away and they called it 90% of the game.

Anywho...great game and maybe we will see each other again in March. Heytvelt<sp> is going to be a beast when he gets healthy.

HamiltonVol
12-29-2007, 08:55 PM
It was a very physical game both ways IMO with many fouls that could have been called. I thought there were several times when the Zags were on our backs when we were rebounding.

I hate winning a game when the refs were a major factor, but I just didn't think they were today.

I agree with BillVol.

I'm a little disappointed with this thread, but to be fair, I see the same thread on the Tennessee board after every loss (and some wins). I guess I hoped Gonzaga fans would be more objective than Tennessee fans (I have no idea why I would expect such an illogical thing; fans are fans, and people are people).

It's funny. I watched the game with a Tennessee fan, and he griped that the officiating was biased against Tennessee throughout the entire game. I spent the game explaining why I thought the officials were right, or at least understandable, from the Gonzaga perspective. Now I get on here and find they were biased the other way!

Ah well. Good game. Great comeback at the end.

Here's something I always try to convince Tennessee fans of, especially once conference play starts: the more physical, aggressive team gets more calls. Especially if they are playing with more hustle and energy. Today, that was us. We didn't play great, but we played REALLY intensely.

For an example, just watch the end of the game. Those two steals by Gonzaga (against Lofton and then Howell) were REALLY physical. But Gonzaga got the benefit of the doubt (correctly) because they were hustling, and our senior guards were playing soft and weak.

That's how college basketball is called.

ZagMania
12-29-2007, 08:56 PM
I don't think the game was poorly officiated, although like our game against Oklahoma it hurt us in that the refs were allowing a more physical game on both ends which doesn't work to our advantage. I just think it was odd for a Vol fan to come here and claim we are all blaming refs for the loss and then claim that because we shot more free throws that Tennessee should be mad at the officiating without taking the differing styles of play into account.

But yeah, just please don't come here and say something like this:

You all played a good game, and it's sad when you have to blame the refs for your loss. Especially when there is very few Zag fans here that believe that.

ZaggyZaggerson
12-29-2007, 08:57 PM
Those refs should be relieved of their duties...it was that bad. They had no feel for anything or method to their madness.

ZagNative
12-29-2007, 08:59 PM
Rockytops, welcome to the board. Gutsy move to come into the lion's den after a loss.

I've really enjoyed the Tennessee fans who've dropped by the last couple of days. Good sports all and smart bb fans. Good luck to the Vols the rest of the way.

rockytopps
12-29-2007, 09:08 PM
Rockytops, welcome to the board. Gutsy move to come into the lion's den after a loss.

I've really enjoyed the Tennessee fans who've dropped by the last couple of days. Good sports all and smart bb fans. Good luck to the Vols the rest of the way.


Thanks ZagNative, you guys have a great board.

23dpg
12-29-2007, 09:17 PM
I have nothing but respect for the way Tenn. plays defense. You could almost call a foul on them every play, kinda like the way Kentucky use to play under Pitino. But there was nothing dirty in the way they do it. They are a hard team to officiate.

I thought Tennessee deserved more fouls than GU. I also thought Tenn deserved to win the game. Stop worrying about the officials guys.

theothegreat21
12-29-2007, 09:26 PM
The issue was not the refs, but instead how each team dealth with the refs. The Tennessee players came out physical and really banged around the Zags. Instead of banging them right back and making the refs take away our physicality we played soft. Tennessee deserved this win with or withour poor refs, and they play a physical/tough brand of basketball that our Zags could really learn from

BroncoZAG615
12-29-2007, 09:26 PM
First off, it was a goaltend on Josh and as the announcers said, it doesn't matter when the foul on Steven occured at the end of the half, it matters when he raised his hand and called it. Both plays were irrelevant, Josh's swat still boosted our momentum and no one really expected that call to actaully happen.

The announcers were spot on with their commentary of the officiating. Tennessee plays a physical game, most SEC and ACC teams do. They play in your face perimeter defense, something very foreign to Gonzaga. Look at our losses, Texas Tech and Oklahoma are also very physical in your face teams coached by guys that expect that. WE need to toughen up. Pargo and Matt are the only ones really fit for that kind of game. Austin and Micah float around the perimeter and are too skinny and Josh is not healthy enough yet. Sacre and Kuso just don't have the skill set to take a bump and make a play. The best teams in the nation are physical and will foul you 10 or more times but keep you crying. Today Tennessee scraped and beat us, fair and square. Time to quit the excuses.

upan8th
12-29-2007, 09:28 PM
This thread not worthy of the board. Yeah, it was the refs that caused our guards to pick up their dribble 30 ft from the hoop and get trapped. It was the refs that prevented us from getting the ball in play within five seconds after the Vols pressed. Them danged refs allowed Tennesee's pressure defense to throw us completely out of our offensive rhythm. 28 fouls? There should have been 60! And did you see the way Pearl was shouting and gesticulating. Should have been teed up and thrown out of the game!

STOP YOUR WHINING, admit we played less than well, and, playing much less ably than THEY can, the Vols came cross country and whipped a still -in-progress GU team. And that's the name of that tune.

GeorgiaZagFan
12-29-2007, 09:39 PM
volfan27 ft attempts:
gu-28
ut-15

I believe that Tennessee hacked, pushed or shoved with their lower body on about 50% of the offensive moves that Gonzaga made to the basket. But Tennessee "plays that kind of game" so they got away with it. But the officials don't see GU as that type of team and they called ticky-tack fouls the other way. The free throw difference should have been much greater the way Tennessee was playing.
-
I give NO credit to Tennessee!!! They are a rough, physical, athletically gifted team... but play VERY stupidly. They allowed GU to get back in the game by making some very poor decisions. They are only as good as the refs allow them to be. If the refs allow them to be that agressive and physical they will have a great chance of winning.
-
But if the refs make them play real basketball they are a mediocre team at best!!!

GeorgiaZagFan
12-29-2007, 09:54 PM
When Gonzaga was down 18 with under 10 minutes...they finally "turned up their intensity" and played the kind of game they will need to play for the entire game if they want to compete with the big boys this year.

I live in Georgia and I'm an SEC fan...been to Georgia's basketball camps and would love for the "southern" Bulldogs and Dennis Felton to get to the NCAA's this year...but it ain't going to happen.
I also admire the Gonzaga bulldogs and the program they've put together. But I was ashamed of the SEC officials and what they allowed Tennessee to get away with in this game.
Hopefully it will make Gonzaga stronger and better prepared for these type of games in the future.

Loftonfor3
12-29-2007, 09:55 PM
BWAAAAHHH!!!!! Mediocre?????????? BWAAHHHHH!!!!!!
Sorry Zag fans, but that was a stupid comment!

theothegreat21
12-29-2007, 10:06 PM
I dont think the comeback had anything to do with Tennessee playing stupidly. It was more the Zags taking smarter shots and actually playing good defense. Tennessee is the type of team that will play their style for 40 minutes no matter how much they are up or down. Obviously if they go cold shooting this can hurt them, but they were the much better team and in no way did they not deserve this win

Zag 77
12-29-2007, 10:08 PM
OK. Let us leave the complaining aside for just a minute. Back to my original question: Why are SEC officials doing a game with a SEC team competing at a "neutral" site?

Was it a demand that UT made in order to get them to play the Battle in Seattle?

BroncoZAG615
12-29-2007, 10:12 PM
I would assume that it is a concession that Few and Gonzaga made to Tennesee to get them to play us in the Northwest. As we all know it is very difficult to get high class teams to come here so we probably had to sweeten the deal.

Maybe I am naive but refs are refs. It doesn't matter what conference they're from.

applezag
12-29-2007, 10:16 PM
It is likely that when GU plays in Tennessee next year it will be officials from the west coast. This is common in multi-year game agreements. Last year we had west coast officials in Memphis. I think it's just something they do to try to balance out the home court a bit.

I hate to even weigh in on this, but since I'm on the topic, here are my two cents.

The only calls that really got me fired up today were the two charges Heytvelt took on one end late in the game and then Pargo getting called for his (which was definitely a charge) on the other. If they decide they aren't calling it, then be consistent. Otherwise, I thought the refs simply let a lot of slapping and grabbing go. Tennessee does this a lot more than Gonzaga--one of their strengths is getting hands on the ball defensively. Gonzaga did not attempt to swipe and grab as much as Tennessee, but I'd imagine if they had they would have gotten away with it as well. The fact that the refs let a lot go was to Tennessee's advantage, but did not demonstrate a bias on their part. That's just the way sports go sometimes and GU needs to learn from it.

Tennessee was the better team today and deserved to win, regardless of the calls.

HamiltonVol
12-30-2007, 07:54 AM
OK. Let us leave the complaining aside for just a minute. Back to my original question: Why are SEC officials doing a game with a SEC team competing at a "neutral" site?

Was it a demand that UT made in order to get them to play the Battle in Seattle?

This is almost certainly not a "demand" or a "concession." Probably West Coast officials will call the game in Tennessee next year (which will also be at a "neutral" site, BTW). This is pretty standard practice.

billyberu
12-30-2007, 08:17 AM
Here's my view:

1) UT won the game and were not aided in any tangible way by the refs.

2) I was AT the game and the refs were bad. A hand check IS a foul, but is not called that way in certain conferences. If you watched the game on TV you have little reference because it doesn't always follow the action away from the ball.

Lastly, these threads always seem to pop up after high profile losses. It irks me that the opposing team's fans feel compelled to weigh-in. Yeah, it's a message board, but to my way of thinking it's bad etiquette.

UT is a good team and our guys will learn from this. Bruce Pearl is a good coach who dresses like a pimp. And I like that. :D