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BobZag
12-26-2007, 09:49 AM
Search your feelings, young Jedis. In all of Few's years as head coach, his squads have played their best ball by now, or even well before now. Zags are known for starting fast and knocking off top BCS type teams.

But not this year. The Zags are simply not playing like, well, not playing like Zags, and the team really isn't that good.

Sooo... It's the end of December. Fulltime, official practice began October 14th. November 14th has come and gone, as has December 14th. Well over two full months have passed. Two months of drills, repetition, scrimmages, individual coaching, team coaching, the works...

The Questions:

1. Are these Zags are what they are and as good as they're gonna get?

2. Will these Zags improve, get better and peak at some point in the future?

My answer:

With only past performances of past years to go by, I choose #1. Fellas, I believe what we have been seeing is what we are going to be getting. I'm just being true to my feelings.

What say you?

john montana
12-26-2007, 09:52 AM
In a normal year, I would agree but these guys have not been playing together for 2 full months. Give them 2 months of playing together, and they'll be peaking.

Good things still to come this year (I hope!)

23dpg
12-26-2007, 09:53 AM
I respectfully disagree. Number 2 is my choice.

applezag
12-26-2007, 10:00 AM
An interesting ovservation about the team peaking by now in all of Few's years. I think a few of those years could be debated, but for the most part, this is an accurate observation. I do think this year has to be an exception. If it isn't, it will be very disappointing.

Considering that Heytvelt, the team's most talented player and a guy that most teams will not have a real answer for inside, has played one game and looked nowhere near 100%; considering that Steven Gray has just been inserted into the lineup on a limited basis and will be an important contributor; considering that Bouldin has played a number of games far below 100%--I just don't think we've truly seen this year's team yet. That's not to say that they'll be great, but I don't think I can conclusively say they've peaked when they really haven't played.

My hunch is that we will see a much better product in February/March. That's not to say they will be a Sweet 16 or Elite 8 team, but the talent and health will be a lot better.

MidwestZagFan
12-26-2007, 10:04 AM
I'm going to go with #2 as well. The injuries definately have had a negative impact on the team's performance, and they're just getting over that. They'll need a little more time to get the chemistry going, but I absolutely believe that they will be much better than we've seen so far. There is WAY too much talent/potential in this group for this to be as good as it gets....

drnoe
12-26-2007, 10:11 AM
BZ, if the Zags don't get some inspired "inside" play from Josh...i.e. 10-14 rpg/ 15-18 ppg/2-3 bpg, along with added scoring punch from Bouldin and Downs, it could be a relatively mediocre season. This team is in need of better rebounding and inside scoring. That said, no matter what, I believe the Zags will still make it to the tourney. The Zags are holding onto many wild cards of potential and uncertainty (Josh, Gray, Daye and Sacre). I'm still waiting for the Zags to knock my socks off, and I hope that by the end of January or sooner, I'll be barefoot. Go Zags!

dim4sum
12-26-2007, 10:14 AM
I think the offense needs a kick in the pants. Don't know why but there are periods of inertia followed by poor decision-making.
Kuso needs to be out of the starting lineup. He is OK, but not a consistent force on the boards or as a scorer.
The bigs have not been a scoring factor--and there are a lot of them.
Combined there have not been the 15 points and eight boards that Josh provided last year by himself.
Then there is Jeremy. The Oklahoma game is a prototypical example. He helped, yes. In fact, took over while everyone else was standing around. Then at crunch time, there was the other Jeremy. Bad decisions, poor decision-making. I think Jeremy needs more time on the bench, so that Gray has a chance to unwind. He gained fame in high school as a deadly marksman.
But he can also penetrate and finish in traffic and play solid d. That unseen aspect of Gray's game will emerge with playing time. He's kind of a quiet assassin in the Brandon (is he ever on fire now) Roy mold. My vote is for one, but it could be a two. In the meantime, I think it will be a battle between St. Mary's and the Zags for the WCC crown, and the edge could go to St Mary's because of surprising strength from the Aussie in the backcourt who has brought to the table everything Jeremy hasn't---consistency, scoring, finding open guys, etc.

Reborn
12-26-2007, 10:14 AM
Sometimes it's best to NOT trust your feelings. I know that quite well.

This is probably the easiest question to answer that I've seen on the board. Of course GU will get better. For all the reasons that we've been talking about all year. THE BEST IS YET TO COME is so very true with the Zags this year.

1. Josh will get better.
2. Steven Gray will get better.
3. Austin Daye will get better.
4. Rob Sacre will get better.
5. Micah Downs will get better.
6. LG will get better.

We finally have our whole team together, and now as they begin to play together the team will improve. It's a good thing we had 9 days off after losing to Oklahoma. I imagine they're back getting ready to play Tennessee.

How could one NOT THINK that Josh will get better, and really solidify the low block. I think the same for Gray. Having Josh and Steven out for the early part of the season hurt the Zags only in the win loss column. If you're not looking at W's and L's you have to feel that the playing time that certain players got because they were out helped the team. I would prefer to start slow and finish strong way more than continue the past trend of starting fast and finishing bad.

I have a lot of faith in the Zags. I have faith in each player on this team. I have faith in the coaches. Therefore, I believe they will come together quickly and we will soon see the team we believed in in September. Power to the Zags.

Ezag
12-26-2007, 10:18 AM
Well we hope everyone will get better but it won't happen with everyone on the list. Bouldin is about the same as he was last year, ditto Pargo and Kuso.

I think the next three of games will be telling (Tenn, Utah, Georgia). I think we should come out with 2 wins out of that. I know Josh still won't be 100% but it we have enough talent.

I admit I have been disappointed in the performance thus far especially since this was supposed to be the "best Zags team ever" but I want to wait and see what happens by Jan 5th.

Ziggy
12-26-2007, 10:22 AM
Late bloomers they are this year me thinks, Obi Zag! In their hands the future they hold. Patience Master!

Larrylegend
12-26-2007, 10:26 AM
Remember in college b-ball it’s not who’s playing the best in December but who’s peaking in March. Gonzaga finally, finally has all their players healthy. Coach Few has two months to get the team tuned-up and ready to Dance. The best for this year’s team has yet to come!

HillBillyZag
12-26-2007, 10:34 AM
It could be the injuries?, the chemistry?, personalities?, or whatever?, but I must agree with BZ that this is NOT a typical Zag team. I see no sense of urgency, the ball movement is not a crisp as in years past and there seems to be no "go to" guy with the exception of Pargo or Downs on occaisions. I think that the next couple of weeks will show us what we can expect from that point. IMHO we lack a pysical presense in the paint, which with JB, Coury, Zach. etc.. we have always had in the past, if this is the case, then getting josh back may or may not be the anwer, depending on how aggressive and physical he and Rob are willing to get. The slight build of Daye, Downs, and Will is not going to move anyone around inside right now, and Pendo will battle a buzz saw, but he is just outmanned against some of the opposition we have faced. I'm not knocking anyone individual, however this team reminds me of a beautiful puzzle with a couple key pieces missing?I have faith Coach Few will remedy the problem, but if the cure can be completed in time for a deep run in March is open to debate?

tyra
12-26-2007, 10:35 AM
Not sure what kind of day The Master had yesterday but with his question . . . Reborn talks above about the individual improvements that are likely to occur over the course of this year. I believe the bigger challenge is Coach Few's. Yes, this is about the Coach getting the improvement out of the individuals but more importantly, finding the "right" rotation and playing time distribution, and somehow-someway coaching/inspiring that magical "chemistry". Without it, we are doomed. But for this team, with its talent level to fail to make the dance would be [Warning: Understatement coming] a major disappointment.

BobZag
12-26-2007, 10:37 AM
After thinking about it, I honestly don't think Heytvelt is that much of a difference-maker to lift this team to greater heights. Gray is a frosh. I just don't believe Few can get this team to where he thought they were going to be. I think we all thought so at the beginning, me included, and I do realize that Hope spring eternal, but 12 games is a good, solid sampling, and I am of the belief that after 12 games you pretty much have seen what you're going to be seeing. But honestly, if Josh makes such a difference, how'd GU lose to LMU last year with Josh? How'd GU lose 8 games with Josh last year? Would GU have really played better last year vs Memphis if Josh had played?

I'm buying the injury thing less and less the more I have time to reflect on it.

bigblahla
12-26-2007, 11:14 AM
Unfortunately, I tend to agree with BZ.

I think the weight of all this lies heavy on Coach Few & staff.

I look at this team and it stupifies me that we aren't tearing people apart with half court offense.

I've said it before, I think Micah can get his shot up on almost anyone. Set some hard screens, pick at roll. Where's the mid-range game. Use Micah, Gray and add a little Pendo. Pargo and Bouldin will get theirs but lets establish set plays to free spot up shooters so everyone knows when to crash the boards and won't be out of position.

Josh will add to the team but I don't expect him to dominate in the post.

This team could be scary but I think it will be the coaches toughest season ever putting the right pieces on the floor and giving them the right plays to make them successful. I don't think this Zags team can just have a flow to the offense and be successful. Set plays every trip down the floor unless we're on a break.

Just my opinion.

Go!! Zags!!!

VinnyZag
12-26-2007, 11:14 AM
we are doomed

MickMick
12-26-2007, 11:24 AM
It is all relative. Of course the team will improve...but so will everyone else. The question should be, "Will the Zags improve at a faster rate than their competition?" Last year, the freshman laden UNC and Texas teams improved a great deal during the course of the season. Zags may or may not improve at that rate. I have my doubts they will.

Zags are a good team with a great shot at winning the WCC and getting into post season again. But they are not consistent enough to be called a great team. I doubt they get past round one of the NCAA tournament. I don't think they compare well with previous Zag teams. No Ravio or Morrison. No dead-eye shot maker. But they do play with good effort and intensity. I really hope they prove me wrong.

75Zag
12-26-2007, 11:28 AM
I have no idea how GU will do on Saturday, and so far I am not impressed with the players, the coaching or the results. Betting your entire season on the return of an injured player or two is not a good place to be. Having said that, if GU wins 2 or 3 of the remaining nonconference games and gets a decent NCAA seed, anything can happen. If they lose 2 or 3 of the remaining nonconference games and then limp into the NCAAs either as the WCC automatic bid or as an at-large team (which I think is more questionable than some of you seem to admit), then I think we may be in for another "one and done" NCAA season. Which sucks frankly, given the preseason hype and the apparent level of individual talent on the team.

See you in Seattle!

ZagNative
12-26-2007, 11:32 AM
If I believed #1, the implication would be that the kids are better before the coaching staff has much of a chance to work with them, and they go downhill the more coaching and experience they get.

Doesn't make sense to me, and I still feel these kids have yet to come together as a team and still have an opportunity to do that. My only concern that their confidence has taken a sufficiently big hit to negatively affect their chance of success.

We'll see .... For some reason, though, BZ questioning whether the team will get significantly better provides some comfort for me. Maybe it feels like the other shoe dropping.

zag zealot
12-26-2007, 11:36 AM
I have watched games at the kennel and record every game so I can watch it again. I believe the team has given over 100% every game. There losses have been by a minimum of points. There has not been a consistant rotation yet. I think that what the team is experiencing is the "Few effect".whereby the team gets more concerned with running plays than with scoring. I watch it every year in the big tourny. The players are like little kids afraid of makling a mistake knowing they will be criticised harshly. I Would like to see the players given more freedom to score with less criticism. If this team does not do well with the players on this team, it has to be coaching. What we need is for the coaching to go to the next level. By the way, if we are going to play teams that are going to mug us, we better become the best muggers around.
Would someone advise me on how to change my name since a similar name exists? Thanks

zagzilla
12-26-2007, 11:37 AM
The key difference this year is that we don't have a set rotation with roles for the players which are well-understood yet.

In the past we knew where the ball was going from the start of the season-Dan, Blake, Ronny, Adam, Derek, etc...

As a result, there wasn't much room for upside improvements after the first couple of months.

This season is different where once the team is at full strength, we will need another month or so to get the kinks worked out of the rotation and then we should see what this team is really capable of.

We will know what we have by Feb 1.

hockeyzag
12-26-2007, 11:38 AM
After thinking about it, I honestly don't think Heytvelt is that much of a difference-maker to lift this team to greater heights. Gray is a frosh. I just don't believe Few can get this team to where he thought they were going to be. I think we all thought so at the beginning, me included, and I do realize that Hope spring eternal, but 12 games is a good, solid sampling, and I am of the belief that after 12 games you pretty much have seen what you're going to be seeing. But honestly, if Josh makes such a difference, how'd GU lose to LMU last year with Josh? How'd GU lose 8 games with Josh last year? Would GU have really played better last year vs Memphis if Josh had played?

I'm buying the injury thing less and less the more I have time to reflect on it.


I think Josh will have more of an effect than he did last year because of all the stuff he's had to go through this past year. Many people on this board have been talking about how focused he is now that he knows how lucky he is to still have the opportunity to play. Last year who knows what he was doing the night before games. This year he will be more focused on basketball and his potential will hopefully be reached. If Josh was good last year think of how good he can be when he buckles down and commits to the program.

Having Josh will be huge imo, none of our other bigs can finish, Kuso can't shoot, Sacre is still too slow and deliberate with his moves, Josh is going to dominate once again, you'll see. :)

jazzdelmar
12-26-2007, 11:42 AM
The Pollys here just dont get it, or choose to not get it. Ur saying the TEAM is all it can be and I agree 1,000%. Sure individuals can improve, but the issue is that this group just has no chemistry. And thats an ephemeral thing. Man to man, they are a bunch of good/v good D1 players. That shld be enough to get 25 wins. But not with the chemistry they are now showing. I see 9-10 losses and Randy will take us to the end at the WCC game. If we get an at large nod it will be unwarranted and a Lifetime Achievement Award.

ZagNative
12-26-2007, 11:48 AM
Jazz, I don't think it's necessary to sneer at those who present a different point of view. I'm not a Polly - just not ready to concede we've seen the best these kids have to offer. IMO, you are too often too negative.

jazzdelmar
12-26-2007, 11:50 AM
That was a blanket statement and inappropriate of me.....My regrets....But there sure are a lotta Pollys here, u hafta give me that

BobZag
12-26-2007, 11:58 AM
I won't beat this dead horse any longer, but the team has had 12 D1 games to show any signs of improvement, any polish to their game, any changes to be made to make the team improved. Over one-third of the season is gone. I have zero improvement from the Montana game to the Oklahoma game.

We are what we are.

I'm from Missouri on any changes or improvements in the next 20 games: Show me.

brasszag
12-26-2007, 11:59 AM
I could see that the lack of chemistry may come from them KNOWING that one of their starters and their sixth man were still waiting in the wings.

Now that all the pieces are nominally in place I think we'll see the team play in a more role-minded manner - rather than covering gaps in the rotation (and plays) caused by injuries to 2 key members.

There may not end up being any synergy on the court, but after only 1 game with the battered and bruised and recovering (but all hands on board at least) lineup we have no way of telling, and any chemistry issues so far should not be cause for alarm.

Josh's presence immediately takes some of the pressure off Austin and Rob - they can be subbed out for coaching easier. As much potential as those 2 have - they need more feedback on their play, rather than pure minutes.

Steven's presence immediately takes some pressure off Jeremy and Matt - so that they can get the coaching and rest time that they need - respectively.

john montana
12-26-2007, 12:01 PM
Chemistry is something that develops as you play together. This team has not had enough time playing together. It really is as simple as that. Everyone acknowledges that the talent is there, the question seems to be whether they can come together. To my mind, saying we haven't answered that question is anything but pollyanish.

This season could go either way, but the pieces are there.

Ezag
12-26-2007, 12:04 PM
I am not sure what a "polly" is...but I think I may have been one from time to time!!:confused:

Zag365
12-26-2007, 12:27 PM
We are what we are.

I'm from Missouri on any changes or improvements in the next 20 games: Show me.

Okay, so we are currently a top 30 team. Not a bad deal. But, after St. Joe/UConn, I bought into the expectation that we could be a top 20 team. BZ is right that we haven't gotten better. I trust the coaches and like our players. From watching on TV, they seem to be hustling and have definitely moved the D up a notch. But, it has been deflating that we've lost the close ones that we coulda won. Maybe those of you who are closer to the team can explain our lack of consistent outside shooting. Is it lack of confidence? Lack of execution? Seems like everyone is hesitant/tentative in crunch time. (and poor FT % isn't helping either)

Gonezagaga
12-26-2007, 12:42 PM
Over, did Bobzag say over? Nothing is over until we decide it is. Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? He** no! And it ain't over now. Cuz when the goin gets tough .... the tough get going. Who's with me? Let's goooooooo!

What the **** happened to the GU board that I used to know? Where's the spirit? Where's the guts, huh? "Ooh, we're afraid to go with you Coach Few, we might lose some more games." Well just kiss my a** from now on! Not me! I'm not gonna take this!! Tennessee? Dead. Utah? Dead. Memphis? ........

And we're just the team to do it.

Let's DOOOOOO ITTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ZagAddict
12-26-2007, 12:58 PM
This team will benefit from a more consistent rotation. The injuries forced certain players to log more minutes than usual and put Few and Co. into a position to use many different rotations. I'm hoping to see more consistency with a rotation like:

Pargo
Bouldin
Downs
Heytvelt
Kuso

6th man: Pendo

This is going to be the rotation that puts the Zags in the best position to win in the second half of the season. All others will be counted on as role players who can influence a game as well... Larry G's defense, Daye's shot blocking ability, Gray's 3pt shooting, Sacre's 5 fouls and 7ft height. After 12 games I believe we've seen how each player figures into the rest of the season, and the sooner we get to a more consistent rotation the better off we will be for playing in late Feb. and March.

In my opinion we are still missing 1 LARGE piece with this team... we don't have an inside presence. No one on this roster can play the role that Calvary, Violette, Turiaf, or Bautista have played in the past for the Zags. Without an inside presence I believe the Zags are at best a team that makes the NCAA tournament and has an early exist as a 7 - 11 seed. This is a problem that will not only plague us this year, but also for next year if Sacre doesn't have a miraculous improvement during the off season.

75Zag
12-26-2007, 01:30 PM
ZagAddict puts it better than I can, but I agree with what he says. Inside presence has been a trademark of Zag teams since 99 but so far in 2007 GU has none. I will be extremely interested in watching how GU deals with Brian "Big Baby" Williams in the BIS game. Williams is hardly a skilled or graceful force, but he is a mighty big body and I don't know who or how anybody on the GU team will deal with him.

Maybe we'll get lucky and he will eat himself into a temporary coma before the game.

See you in Seattle!

drnoe
12-26-2007, 01:32 PM
Over, did Bobzag say over? Nothing is over until we decide it is. Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

Jerome Brown: "Did the Japanese go and sit down and have dinner with Pearl Harbor, before they bombed 'em? Fellas, let's go!"

spudzag
12-26-2007, 01:36 PM
Glad to see this thread is drawing the attention I'm guessing BZ intended. Good comments by all.

I'm not cynical enough to throw in the towel on the season and say this is as good as it gets. So I side with the BZ option #2 croud.

I'm clearly an arm-chair coach, so keep that in mind. I'm going to speculate that this new level of player comes to Fewie with better individual skills but poorer team skills. Think about it for a minute. Most of these guys were the go to player on past teams. They had the entire team making plays for them. I would bet that much of practice is about devoloping "team". This strikes me as a shift from past teams where the guys were not necessarily as individually gifted and as a result were more into the team concept. I thing the team concept will gel and this team will get better faster than the competion as a result.

My 2 cents.

zagzealot
12-26-2007, 01:45 PM
Would someone advise me on how to change my name since a similar name exists? Thanks


Just in case this gets lost in the post...
;)

Reborn
12-26-2007, 02:33 PM
When I was in school I learned that two-thirds was a lot more than one-third. Why would it seem to anyone that 1/3 is a large piece of a puzzle. To imagine that there is a BIG problem on the Zag's team just puzzles me, and especially because it comes from within ZagNation. I almost feel like there's a pack of heretics in Zag Nation spreading gloom and doom. If we are so DOOMED, why are we still ranked 26th and I think 27th in the two polls? Why are we still being given consideration by most basketball analysts? Zag hope right now seems to be coming more from outside Zag Nation than from within.

You can call me any name you like. It doesn't embarrass me at all. I'm proud to believe in the Zags, and I'm proud that I HAVEN'T given up. Never giving up is something that I learned a long long time ago, and I'm glad I did. I also learned that when the going gets tough, the tough get going....They don't quit. We have had some tough losses. Granted. But not by very much.

I'M PROUD TO BE A POLYANNA....And I hope that I am the biggest of them all.
How can you call yourself a Zag Fan, and call it quits when we are only 1/3 of the way into the season? Even if the Doomsayers are right, I'd NEVER fall into their camp....I'd rather be happy then right.

Sure. I've been wrong on a few of my predictions. So what? Is this Board all about trying to see who's right and who's wrong, and who knows the most. It's not for me that's for sure. I come here as a Zag fan, and rooting and cheering for my Zags 100% of the time. I am not the kind of a person who throws the white flag up after 1/3 of the Season. I've never seen so many quitters in my life.

JAGzag
12-26-2007, 03:20 PM
First, Few has never had this much talent and I think he's having a tougher time finding a rotation that works. This team is unlike the teams of past where we had one (or two) go to guy. UNC had this problem last year. Second, the players we hoped would step up, have not; but players have started to come around. Third, Josh coming back WILL BE huge. Frankly we have not had an inside game all year. Hopefully with Josh back, and Sacre continuing to develope, a 4-5 combo with JH at the 4 would be killer. EVEN IF JOSH doesn't hit 100% soon, just his presence will have huge implications for opposing teams, AND our players who will be lifted with his presence. Mark my words, this team will continue to develope all year ...

BobZag
12-26-2007, 03:25 PM
Just in case this gets lost in the post...
;)

Near as I can tell zag zealot can be deleted and then re-register under a different username. I don't think a username can be changed.

As for the Zags, I will be cheering them on, hoping for the very best, but I'm still from Missouri on the team: Show me.

:)

Gonezagaga, that was a good laugh. Gracias, amigo.

gamagin
12-26-2007, 03:41 PM
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on Few;
If you can trust yourself when all men, even BZ, doubts you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or, being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or, being dissed, don't give way to dissing,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise;

If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with triumph and disaster
And treat those two imposters just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by spammers to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn out tools;

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on";

If you can talk with foes and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Zags - yet keep the common touch;
If neither Cougs nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of basketball run -
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Zag fan my son!
#

BobZag
12-26-2007, 03:59 PM
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on Few;
If you can trust yourself when all men, even BZ, doubts you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or, being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or, being dissed, don't give way to dissing,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise;

If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with triumph and disaster
And treat those two imposters just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by spammers to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn out tools;

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on";

If you can talk with foes and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Zags - yet keep the common touch;
If neither Cougs nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of basketball run -
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Zag fan my son!
#

Don't bogart that joint my friend
Pass it over to me
Don't bogart that joint my friend
Pass it over to me

Roll another one
Just like the other one
You've been holding on to it
And I sure will like a hit

Roll another one
Just like the other one
That one's burned to the end
Come on and be a real friend

75Zag
12-26-2007, 04:00 PM
The Zags will win
Tomorrow
Bet your bottom dollar
That tomorrow
There'll be wins!

Just thinkin' about
Tomorrow
Clears away the cobwebs,
And the sorrow
'Til there's none!

When I'm stuck a day
That's gray,
And lonely,
I just stick out my chin
And Grin,
And Say,
Oh!

The Zags will win
Tomorrow
So ya gotta hang on
'Til tomorrow
Come what may
Tomorrow! Tomorrow!
We'll win one Tomorrow!
You're always
A day
A way!

MidwestZagFan
12-26-2007, 04:06 PM
I LOVE THE BOARD!!!!!!!!!!!!
Go Zags!!

rennis
12-26-2007, 04:27 PM
i will wait to reserve judgment about the team until after the Tenn. game. We've had a few opportunities to win some big games and got out-played down the stretch. If we need to improve anywhere, that's where it has to happen.

I don't see a problem with team chemistry per se, I just see the team lacking the focus and cohesion to put another good team away.

But if they can do it once, maybe that's what they need to jump-start their season...they're already off to a decent start on a brutal schedule, let's not sell them too short yet.

Either way they will win the WCC in my opinion and will be dancing. if we want to make noise in the dance, the guards are going to have to improve a lot between now and then...and that is entirely possible and in my opinion very likely.

Ziggy
12-26-2007, 05:42 PM
Thank you gamagin for the stirring rendition of that classic favorite. Moving you right up into the top ten all-time great Zag-inspired Poetry. I'm searching the smiley-bin for a straight face because I'm sure you'll think I'm being cynical when in fact I'm serious. In this day and age every horde needs it inspiring reads.:)

Er,...BZ, I'm not so sure of you're offering...? Sorry.

zag zealot
12-26-2007, 05:43 PM
Thanks BZ

saintzag
12-26-2007, 07:28 PM
This team will start winning now.They are Zags.Tis the season for teamwork and toughness.This team has the talent it needs to believe and play like it can"t lose. Few needs to install in the team the confidence of a winner.

MDABE80
12-26-2007, 09:21 PM
It's always good to remember that if it weren't for 8 points (combined pt loss total to WSU and OK) this team would be 11-1.....even undermanned. Just something to think about. A little luck and a bit more refinement and......

zag67
12-26-2007, 09:43 PM
So Jazz (here is my opinion), how can you talk about bad the "total" chemistry is when 2 players have just entered the mix, you have 2 freshmen playing lots of minutes and Matt has been playing hurt for a couple of games. I am not going to say that it is going to get a lot better, but between Josh and Steven you are probably talking approximately 30 minutes per game. So I think that you need to wait a month and then evaluate where this team is. I also think that you will see Sacre and Daye improving. And as a team I am hoping that the coaches and players start understanding each others strengths/weaknesses and learn how to use them.

Now if you look at the WSU game, we had some of the worst shooting that could possilby happen and we lost to the number 6 team in the nation by 4. WSU did cause part of the no chemistry, we had young players that might have been too excited (and this should stablize as the year goes on), and the team still had players not ready to play (which will be changing over the next month). Against OK, there bigs did a good job on us and therefore we needed to have help inside. We therefore did not do a good job on guarding the 3s. With the D that we play, it takes time for the young players to know when to colapse into the center and when to attack the wings. A lot of that is understanding who the shooters are and making sure they do not get the open 3s. Again, we lost by 4.

So I guess I am saying that I do not think all is lost and that we need to wait. Now, it might not change and we again do not do as good as we hoped. But we need to let the coaches finally work with the whole team before we judge. Also if you look back in previous years and had as many key injuries as we have had, I do not think that you would have seen any of the teams that could have done better. As example what if Ammo went down or Ravio went down?

kylasdad
12-26-2007, 11:32 PM
Hey Pargo, Bouldin, Gray, LG, Downs, Daye, Pendo, Josh, Kuso, Ira!, Will, Sacre, Sorenson,

It looks like you are DOOMED and being called out by BobZag and Jazz. You might as well pack it in for the year!

loyalviking
12-26-2007, 11:47 PM
Soooo, we have January and February for the team to get better and some of you "regulars" we read on here everyday are supposedly painting the doom and gloom already??? And if the rest don't agree they are "Polly's"?

Ok BobZag and Jazz, I will bite, call me "Polly".

First of all, these first 12 games Few has had to lean on alot of inexperienced players because of the injuries. Daye, Sacre, LG, and Foster (at times) have had to log many more minutes than I am guessing they would have seen. I think we can all agree that when the big boys come calling these guys are not ready to be called on...other than LG.

Secondly, having coached alot of games myself, albeit at a much lower level (AAU), I know it is very hard to have a new team gel in 12 games (2 months), you just can't do it without tripping up at times. If you look at what he is working with, although they are talented, Few only has 5 carry overs that have been either with the program or active in the program over the last year. Brown, Daye, Gray, Sacre, LG, and Foster are either Frosh, or may as well be because they had not seen game action as a Zag until 12 games ago (LG being the exception). Theo?? Gone..Josh has played what??? approximately 15 minutes in a very long time and clearly he is not even close to 100% as of yet. I tend to believe that we will see the JH, once he is in shape, that Katz spoke of recently. It was quite obvious that he did not have his legs and that would definitely be expected. He will not only have a positive effect on the offense, but with his presence in the middle the "D" will be much better. Give him a few games...I'll certainly take 15 and 8 with a few blocked shots thrown in there.

To this point, the Zags have relied on Pargo, Bouldin, Downs, Pendo, and Kuso to get them this far. Not exactly a starting five that you would expect to carry you to the heights that we have come to expect. Now insert JH and Gray and let them mold themselves into the team before expecting double-double's out of them right away and we will see what happens. That gives you a legit 8 man rotation (w/LG) with some guys that are still learning able to do just that while beating up on the WCC. I think come March you will see they are more confident and will have more defined roles.

I have read here many times how difficult Few's system is to learn. These kids have been forced to not only learn this system on the fly, but have faced some pretty decent competition at times while doing so. How can you not learn and get better over time?

I am concerned a bit with some of the individualism that comes with this team, but given time with all of them healthy again, I believe this will take care of itself. There are some guys that need to be more assertive and that will come with more team and individual success. We will struggle surely with some of the upcoming OOC games, namely Tennessee and Memphis, but the regular season will bring these guys along and have them where they need to be come March.

Then again, maybe I am smoking to much of what Fewie has been handing out over the years and have to much faith in our coach to bring this team together. Nahhhhh, they will be fine.

Fonebone
12-26-2007, 11:52 PM
Bob could be right, but I am not buying it. You have to buy the "show me" part, who can argue with that? What I'm not buying is that this first third of the games should be considered representative of the true nature of the team. Too many things are not in place, and there are too many young guys, and too much has been shifting, to say that we should have gelled by this point.

I think the odds are just as good that we could hit the positive tipping point, (see my post of a couple of days ago) as it is that what we have seen is what we are going to get. The greater odds may be that we will fall somewhere in between - better than what we have seen, but not as great as what we have hoped. But my prediction is that we achive that tipping point and emerge, eventually, as a very good team, one that could easily do sweet 16 or elite 8.

GeorgiaZagFan
12-27-2007, 12:33 AM
Watching the Oklahoma game I believe Few when he said that Gray and Heytvelt are 2 of his top 6 players. With that in mind how can anyone be so critical of a team that has only played ONE game together. Give it time!!!
If a month from now the team is still struggling then maybe I'll start to panic....but as Josh and Steven get more playing time (probably at the expense of Sacre and Gurganious) I have no doubt the team will become much better than what we've seen.

GeorgiaZagFan
12-27-2007, 12:48 AM
Now that the team is relatively healthy, what will be the starting lineup...and what possible rotations do you think Few will use. My guess...

Pargo
Bouldin
Downs
Heytvelt
Kuso

with Gray, Daye, Pendergraft, Sacre, and Gurganious off the bench (pretty much in that order). Gray, Daye and Pendo will get most of bench playing time. Sacre and Gurganious will be used as foul and game situations dictate.

It is how these 10 players come together and work as a team that will determine the answer to the original question of this thread.

jpwils
12-27-2007, 07:49 AM
I agree that most Zag teams have peaked by now under Few.

However, this year's team has had injuries, a player leave the team, and
the type of small nagging injuries that hurt shooters-Micah, Gray,& Bouldin.

Because we play to some degree 3 freshmen, we should see two levels of improvement-one in WCC play and one in tourney play. Sacre must step up.
Daye must step up. Gray must step up. If this happens , we will peak in March.

But we need Downs and Pendo to supply some more offense and we need
Heytvelt to round into shape. Just because we lose to Oklahoma(barely)
on Josh's first game back doesn't doom our season.

Keeping our eye on the ball and beating St. Mary's out for the WCC bid
will be the main thing. We may have the advantage of March tourney
opponents taking us lightly this year and be more like a 7 or 8 seed
where psychologically we have done our best work in the past.

If Josh does not progress, to some degree, the Zags don't.

gamagin
12-27-2007, 08:58 AM
JH's foot improved to the point he can play, 10-15 minutes in his first & our last game 12/17; Pendo's two summer knee surgeries improved after a summer but didn't help the rooster from brewster's early sharpness this first one-third of the season, but he's back fully; Micah overcomes and works through a very serious knee reconstruction to begin the process of returning to full strength, then damages his shooting hand, which is still bandaged but clearly better; Gurganious sits out a year (plus), finally working a bad back to reasonable health, as far as we know, and he's contributing where before there was zip; Gray breaks his hand during this time but now appears to be mostly healed, ready & able; Matt rolls his ankle numerous times and plays on, battling for consistency while showing flashes of brilliance; Pargo suffers a thigh injury, plays through it, but is clearly slowed for at least the last few games, but just as clearly, has stepped up & improved; the flu plays no favorites & visits the team over the month of December, just in case we were hoping to get cocky and/or comfortable.

the 2-3 Zags who apparently have not appeared on the Red Cross Squad so far are Daye, Foster, Kuso, Sacre, one of the trainers and the priest.

All of them have shown marked improvement. Kuso has worked double duty underneath training Foster and Sacre to get more physical and Daye has had a remarkable start for a freshman. that will continue.

Just to add more real life to this scenario, Theo Davis, instead of just getting started, quit the team when his dad suffered a debilitating stroke.

So where's the improvement ? What has happened during this first third of our season to offer hope ? What can i "show you?"

Only a fresh set of eyes. A reality check. Reality.

Everyone on this team is in motion, upward motion.

The only thing outpacing this team is the angst among some on this board. Perhaps the pressure will be somewhat relieved by the Xmas release of PlayStation 2 (or is it 3?). I hope so.

But as for me, I can't wait see our top 6-8 players walk onto the floor in good to excellent health (and an attitude to match what good health affords) and then see who emerges victorious.

This is just too good a story to close the book one third of the way through.

And the best, the improvements, are here while the results, the important wins, are yet to come.

This team is just getting started.

Enjoy the calm before the storm. Then enjoy the storm, too.

Reborn
12-27-2007, 09:29 AM
Thanks gamagin for the Poem. It's been some time since I've been touched to the degree that your poem touched me. Poetry certainly has that quality. And BZ thanks for the thread. Sometimes it takes a thread like this to light the fire that has certainly been missing in Zagdom this year.....so far.

I was so moved by gamagin's poem that I ran home to look through my books last night to see if I could find a poem that had fire in it. I think I found one that fits this GUBoard...It was delivered in a speech by Winston Churchill to a graduating class from some university......"Nevah,nevah, nevah give up." He cleared his throat once. "Nevah, nevah, nevah give up." He picked up his stogy and cain and walked off the stage.

FrosTbear
12-27-2007, 11:47 AM
As a BIGpolly let me start with my dream...That I can grow up and have a different view of the world and the big fish think thats ok. Second BZ great way to get the fans working like our team...NOT TOGETHER- Yes, this team is different, we have more talent than any other Zag team IMO and the missing piece is working together to become one big scoring unit. No one wants to be the "go to guy" and that is not a bad thing...it is harder to defend 5 players than one. BZ relax we have the best coach and the best fans in the country and soon the best team. As you know this is our first real year with a defense mind set, so all is well in River City.

FuManShoes
12-27-2007, 12:00 PM
One of my great frustrations with past Zags teams has been that they peaked in November, then got comfortable in the WCC and got surprised/spanked come Dancing time. Well, for better or worse, these Zags have been an unusually unrefined product this year -- but by no means mediocre as some seem to be suggesting. There are just so many factors to cite: injuries, a lot of new faces (coaches included), lots of travel, illness (remember Bouldin and others had the flu). There are some reasons for concern: with the exception of a few games, most guys aren't shooting well; Pargo, for his glimpses of great play, has been very inconsistent and simply is not making enough solid, smart plays that one expects from a junior PG and co-captain. HOWEVER, and we really can't belabor this point enough, the team we've seen on the floor is not a finished product. It's been missing a big piece: the scoring big man, as well as depth at PG. I, for one, believe Pargo will improve by the simple fact that he'll get a breather every once in a while. I also believe the defense will tighten up with time. The big question mark is offensive efficiency and shooting. Will this team continue to throw up bricks from inside and outside, or will the addition of Josh and Gray mean more converted buckets, and will Michah/Bouldin and Pargo start making shots? Big ifs, but the latter might not matter as much if they have more guys to lean on. The biggest IF, is will this team jel with time? Guess we'll find out ... just seems a bit premature to stick a preverbial fork in these guys given some of the unusual circumstances.

MickMick
12-27-2007, 12:19 PM
One of my great frustrations with past Zags teams has been that they peaked in November, then got comfortable in the WCC and got surprised/spanked come Dancing time. Well, for better or worse, these Zags have been an unusually unrefined product this year -- but by no means mediocre as some seem to be suggesting. There are just so many factors to cite: injuries, a lot of new faces (coaches included), lots of travel, illness (remember Bouldin and others had the flu). There are some reasons for concern: with the exception of a few games, most guys aren't shooting well; Pargo, for his glimpses of great play, has been very inconsistent and simply is not making enough solid, smart plays that one expects from a junior PG and co-captain. HOWEVER, and we really can't belabor this point enough, the team we've seen on the floor is not a finished product. It's been missing a big piece: the scoring big man, as well as depth at PG. I, for one, believe Pargo will improve by the simple fact that he'll get a breather every once in a while. I also believe the defense will tighten up with time. The big question mark is offensive efficiency and shooting. Will this team continue to throw up bricks from inside and outside, or will the addition of Josh and Gray mean more converted buckets, and will Michah/Bouldin and Pargo start making shots? Big ifs, but the latter might not matter as much if they have more guys to lean on. The biggest IF, is will this team jel with time? Guess we'll find out ... just seems a bit premature to stick a preverbial fork in these guys given some of the unusual circumstances.

Nice comments Fu. You are right. But the bottom line is scoring. It really has to pick up and I'm not really caring where it comes from at this point. Who is going to consistently step up on the offensive end?

Nevtelen
12-28-2007, 02:36 AM
In some ways, I agree with BZ - I don't think Josh's return will completely change the team. He will add some necessary inside play - with him at 100% I think we would have won the Ok game hands-down and maybe the WSU game. That's the good news.

OTOH, I think to some extent what you see is what you get - i.e. a lot of the problems on the team won't change. The offense might well have even more spits and starts and bad spots as the team tries to integrate 2 new players into more PT. That lost look on offense and lack of a go-to-guy will probbly still be an issue - that just seems to be part of this team's personality, for whatever reason and nothing is going to change that, not even Josh back. He'll help with some things, but is not a cure-all that will magically fix all the issues this squad has.

Bottom line, the team is better than it looked like vs Ok and worse than many thought at the beginning of the season. It certainly hasn't peaked yet. How much better it will get is open to interpretation.

kitzbuel
12-28-2007, 09:15 AM
I think we are really finding out what was talked about a couple of years ago, Batista was a bigger loss to this team than Morrison. As has been talked about here, the Zags have had a long string of solid inside play culminating with JP and I think we began taking that for granted. Hopefully Sacre will pick up the mantle worn by Casey Calvery, Zach Gourde, Ronny Turiaf and JP. That position right there, IMHO, is where the Zags are weakest right now. Lots of speed and athleticism but no solid anchor in the middle.

I think if Sacre can significantly improve during this season, the Zags as a team improve, he may well be the lynch pin for this team's success.

pbriz
12-28-2007, 09:58 AM
I think we are really finding out what was talked about a couple of years ago, Batista was a bigger loss to this team than Morrison. As has been talked about here, the Zags have had a long string of solid inside play culminating with JP and I think we began taking that for granted. Hopefully Sacre will pick up the mantle worn by Casey Calvery, Zach Gourde, Ronny Turiaf and JP. That position right there, IMHO, is where the Zags are weakest right now. Lots of speed and athleticism but no solid anchor in the middle.

I think if Sacre can significantly improve during this season, the Zags as a team improve, he may well be the lynch pin for this team's success.

agreed!