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CDC84
11-22-2007, 10:16 PM
I have a feeling this is not going to be the only game like this for Gonzaga over the course of the next month.

Needless to say, this game is going to serve as a big learning experience for the team and a number of its players. As I suspected, WKU got physical with Daye, and it was his introduction to what he is going to be facing when taking on a really good team that can put a body on him. The Zags needed to learn quickly how to survive without Pargo fronting the team. The free shooting was horrid in the 1st half. The team continues to struggle from the 3 point line. There was a lot of adversity in this game.

But the Zags showed a lot of toughness. Pendo and Sacre had huge offensive rebounds and put backs at important game moments. For all the bad free throw shooting in the 1st half, the Zags hit their last 8 free throws to end the game.

The guy who I just cannot give enough credit to is Micah Downs. He is showing a degree of toughness to his game that would make Casey Calvary and so many of the great Zags very proud. He came through offensively, but I felt the game changing play of this game was his defense on Lee at the 3:48 mark in the 2nd half that induced a turnover. That really gave GU a boost, and his key offensive rebound at the 1:32 mark in the 2nd half where he took a shot to the mouth was huge as well.

There is a quick turnaround. Not much time to celebrate. Red Sweater and his Red Raiders will be taking on the Zags at 9pm PT Friday night. Radio game.

MickMick
11-22-2007, 10:19 PM
Seems we can't buy a bucket. We were spoiled by the likes of Morrison and Ravio. We really miss Gray and Heytvelt.

As far as Texas Tech goes, Bobby Knight took a Zag team out of the tournament that had Turiaf, Morrison, and Ravio on it.

zagfever86
11-22-2007, 10:20 PM
Seems we can't buy a bucket. We were spoiled by the likes of Morrison and Ravio. We really miss Gray and Heytvelt.

As far as Texas Tech goes, Bobby Knight's team took out a Zag team out of the tournament that had Turiaf, Morrison, and Ravio on it.

That was a completely different Tech team.

GonzagaLove
11-22-2007, 10:24 PM
CDC, couldn't agree more. Before Micah arrived, I thought he was a primadonna. Now, I think he is more like Pendo than anyone else on the team. A fighter. Not scoring, but very much affects game. Got to love the guy! GL

MickMick
11-22-2007, 10:25 PM
That was a completely different Tech team.

Hence my mention of Bobby Knight and not any of the players.

CDC84
11-22-2007, 10:34 PM
I know this goes without saying, but WKU is a hell of a team who is going to give fits to anyone they face in the NCAA tourney. I think we all saw tonight why Courtney Lee is going to be playing at the next level. As badly as GU shot at the foul line in the first half, I am sure that WKU fans are not happy about the fact that their team shot under 50% from the line. That really hurt them.

BTW....there are not many D-1 PG's that are as quick as that Brazelton kid. LG was having a miserable time staying in front of him.

theothegreat21
11-22-2007, 10:46 PM
I felt that today's game was a game that previous Zags teams might not have won. The defensive toughness that we showed in the last 10 minutes of the second half was so impressive, and as CDC mentioned it was great seeing Micah dominate on the defensive end towards the end of the game and grab that key rebound.

In my opinion Texas Tech will be a much better matchup then WKU. I think we can run up and down the court on Texas Tech, but it will be key to see how Daye and Sacre handle the even more physical team who will look to intimidate and bully them around. I thought both really improved from the first to the second half and started to understand just how tough D1 basketball will be. Hopefully this we can pull out the win and get the matchup with Butler that we all hoped would come.

BroncoZAG615
11-22-2007, 10:56 PM
This game really really has me worried for the season. Courtney Lee is a stud and Brazelton is a speedy guard but they aren't Memphis, Tennessee or UConn. Before this game I thought we win at least one if not two of these games. Now the play of Lee and the rest of the 'Toppers has got me worried.

The physicality affected us. We got into foul trouble, Daye was frustrated and quite non existent in the first half. How is he going to take the brute strength of UConn's Adrien? People are going to beat him up and I hope he can take it. I did love his intensity tonight, he's got an attitude that is great.

Brazelton caused fits with Larry. Got by him pretty easily and Lee got by Micah on many occasions. I hope we can tune it up and stop players like CDR, Lofton, and even Austrie from UConn. CDR and Lofton are glorified All-American type players.

I just hope Jeremy doesn't get in foul trouble early against these teams. Their overall athleticism and talent will adjust and will really hurt us. You can bet this film will be taken and given to these teams. If Pargo is stopped, it appears we are a very very vulnerable team at this point.

CDC84
11-22-2007, 11:07 PM
This game really really has me worried for the season. Courtney Lee is a stud and Brazelton is a speedy guard but they aren't Memphis, Tennessee or UConn.

I think WKU would give UConn some big time trouble....and I say that having seen the Huskies play 2 times this year. Which isn't to say that UConn won't give GU some major problems when they square off.

Gonzaga should have the services of Gray and Heytvelt for the Tennessee and Memphis games. Who knows how effective either guy will be against the Vols....they should be going full tilt by the time the Memphis game takes place.

But yes, I am very thankful that we aren't playing either of those teams right now. The team is a work in progress right now. They just need to keep winning games, regardless of how it's done.

BTW...Gonzaga is now 14/70 from the 3 point line this season. 20%. The majority of that is Pargo and Bouldin. That's not good folks.

jim77
11-22-2007, 11:20 PM
I too thought Micah stepped up big. The guy is not bashful going to the boards. I also thought Sacre played well...Rob's pressure inside caused a couple of misses near the bucket...the guy is looking more and more like a "Rim Protector". Pendo was his usual self of putting his body at the right place at the right time.... almost Hodini like. Pargo had nice ball pressure near the end and bounced back nicely from early foul trouble....kudos to Matt for picking up the slack.

I have one comment about defense. If we are NOT gonna attempt to trap a player, then we need to stop sending players beyond the half court line. It was screwing up our defense getting set up and leaving open shots.....Butler will kill us if we try that.

theothegreat21
11-22-2007, 11:29 PM
Once we are able to get Josh and Steven back from injury we should be able to handle the quicker guards better. In the game today there were numerous times when LG and Micah were just out of gas and having trouble even staying in front of their man, but nothing could be done because of Pargo having two fouls. Once we get Steven back and can rotate him in with the guards it will give us another strong athlete to help play defense and allow us have fresh guards on the court at all times

I also think that having a presence like Josh around the rim will keep some of those guards from being so comfortable once they get into the lane. There were numerous floaters that the WKU guards were able to hit in the lane, that I doubt they would have even thought of shooting had Josh been in the game. While Kuso can be a strong shot blocker I dont think that Sacre is at that level yet as his strength is more rebounding. Once we have all the pieces put together on this team we will see the defense get much stronger

Nevtelen
11-22-2007, 11:35 PM
BTW...Gonzaga is now 14/70 from the 3 point line this season. 20%. The majority of that is Pargo and Bouldin. That's not good folks.

Every time Pargo looks like he might loft a shot out on the perimiter I die a little inside. Man he's shooting badly from out there. Reports of his improvement were apparently much exaggerated or it just didn't stick in game situations. And yet he continues to toss up horrible shots. Ugh. That's not a feeling I want from the starting pg. Bouldin at least realizes he isn't shooting well from out there and doesn't attempt those shots.

Micah I'm willing to give a little more wiggle room because he has clearly added some new wrinkles to his game - some solid D and a really workmanlike attitude a la Pendo. I think part of it is his legs - they probably get a lot more tired on D than last year - and part is adjusting to a different style. You'll notice the 3-ptrs he has made have been mostly quick release ones off a curl or pass when he doesn't have time to think about it. When he sets up, he most often misses.

This team is really almost a donut team right now - no scoring punch inside (outside of driving guards and backdoors). They need to play very well on the perimiter or any team with a good big will absolutely destroy them. If the team plays like that, St Joes and UConn are going to eat their lunch, throw sand in their face, and kick their dog. Heck, TT might beat them tomorrow. Butler will annihilate them if they play like that.

I know this year's team has a big learning curve, etc, and that things will also get better when Heytvelt and Gray get back, but wow. They had better or this could be a new record loosing season in the Few era. LIZF was dead on with his earlier observations.

MickMick
11-23-2007, 04:19 AM
I have one comment about defense. If we are NOT gonna attempt to trap a player, then we need to stop sending players beyond the half court line. It was screwing up our defense getting set up and leaving open shots.....Butler will kill us if we try that.

Wow...I was thinking the exact same thing. Why were we chasing the likes of Brazelton and Evans? Not only were the Hilltoppers effortlessly getting by, but our guards were getting gassed traveling the extra distance.

Zagme-totheleft!
11-23-2007, 04:39 AM
does anyone recall the fact that GU always seems to play down (or up) to their competition. (e.g. Idaho last year, or the many WCC games). Yes, we blow out the teams that we should, but then we when we face a semi-decent team, we play to their level, and they are thus abled to stay in the game until it comes down to the wire.

bayzag09
11-23-2007, 05:12 AM
does anyone recall the fact that GU always seems to play down (or up) to their competition. (e.g. Idaho last year, or the many WCC games). Yes, we blow out the teams that we should, but then we when we face a semi-decent team, we play to their level, and they are thus abled to stay in the game until it comes down to the wire.

Or maybe we're just not that good. I don't care what level we play up to, but theres no way last nights team could beat the likes of Wazzu,Tenn,and Memphis. 2-12 from 3 last night. 3-12 against UCR. 2-10 against Idaho. 4-12 against Montana. This team has a little more to worry about than just "playing down" to a competition. And I don't even want to mention Free throws....

kitzbuel
11-23-2007, 05:55 AM
That was a completely different Tech team.
This is also a completely different GU team.

Zagme-totheleft!
11-23-2007, 06:20 AM
Or maybe we're just not that good. I don't care what level we play up to, but theres no way last nights team could beat the likes of Wazzu,Tenn,and Memphis. 2-12 from 3 last night. 3-12 against UCR. 2-10 against Idaho. 4-12 against Montana. This team has a little more to worry about than just "playing down" to a competition. And I don't even want to mention Free throws....

practice more 3's then. and free throws cuz we suck at both. you should be concerned with what level we play to, though, otherwise Memphis and other reputable teams will make us look like Lewis and Clark St.

bayzag09
11-23-2007, 06:58 AM
practice more 3's then. and free throws cuz we suck at both. you should be concerned with what level we play to, though, otherwise Memphis and other reputable teams will make us look like Lewis and Clark St.

your missing my point. I'm trying to make it semi-obvious that its not a problem of us playing up to a team like Memphis, but more the pure fact that we can't play at that level. We just aren't as good as we think. You can't just practice more 3s an free throws to magically solve a skill problem.

Zagme-totheleft!
11-23-2007, 07:05 AM
your missing my point. I'm trying to make it semi-obvious that its not a problem of us playing up to a team like Memphis, but more the pure fact that we can't play at that level. We just aren't as good as we think. You can't just practice more 3s an free throws to magically solve a skill problem.

How do you figure that we cannot play at that level? becuase we struggled with WKU? yes we did struggle with them, but maybe we came in unprepared, maybe looking forward to games with more importance than this one. Yes, we need to work on the areas we're currently struggling with.

We just aren't as good as we think? I think that it's a bit early for a comment like that, but you never know.

bayzag09
11-23-2007, 07:15 AM
How do you figure that we cannot play at that level? becuase we struggled with WKU? yes we did struggle with them, but maybe we came in unprepared, maybe looking forward to games with more importance than this one. Yes, we need to work on the areas we're currently struggling with.

We just aren't as good as we think? I think that it's a bit early for a comment like that, but you never know.

Bit early...maybe. But when the 3 point problem or even free throw problem hasn't improved in the first 4 games there is reason to worry. Things like that will get magnified against decent teams- i.e. teams with good coaching, talented players. hopefully we can see some improvement against tech, but I'm not holding my breath.

regardless- Go Zags

Zagme-totheleft!
11-23-2007, 07:21 AM
Bit early...maybe. But when the 3 point problem or even free throw problem hasn't improved in the first 4 games there is reason to worry. Things like that will get magnified against decent teams- i.e. teams with good coaching, talented players. hopefully we can see some improvement against tech, but I'm not holding my breath.

regardless- Go Zags

yes indeed, it needs to improve. but if i know the guys like i think i do, they'll turn it around soon enough, bayzag! i have faith.

ya, Go Zags!

CDC84
11-23-2007, 07:34 AM
I think some people are not giving Western Kentucky enough credit for their influence on how the Zags played. The Hilltoppers are a legit sweet 16 caliber team. Gonzaga didn't "play down" to the competition. When it is all said and done, WKU might be the 4th or 5th best team Gonzaga faces this entire regular season.

The other thing is that for WKU, that game last night was a really, really big deal. The GU game was circled on their calendar as being a must win. They're now stuck in the GAS loser's bracket, which means that they now have to face a D-2 school and some D-1 team that likely won't be seeing postseason play. It's quite possible that the only other NCAA tourney teams WKU will be facing the rest of the regular season are Tennessee and Southern Illinois. Maybe they'll get a good Bracket Buster game. If Gonzaga had lost last night's game, they would've likely won the next two games, left Alaska with a 5-1 record, and would've had plenty of opportunities to pick up some big wins further down the road. In other words, while I am sure the Hilltoppers feel that they could've played better, they tried to pull out all the stops to win the game last night.

Get used to these games folks. GU is going to have to fight hard to win almost every game from now until Josh and Steven get back.

Nevtelen
11-23-2007, 07:44 AM
does anyone recall the fact that GU always seems to play down (or up) to their competition. (e.g. Idaho last year, or the many WCC games). Yes, we blow out the teams that we should, but then we when we face a semi-decent team, we play to their level, and they are thus abled to stay in the game until it comes down to the wire.

There was certainly no "down" to play to - WKU was fantastic. And anyway, that is one thing I don't think the team does (play down to cometition, I mean). We blew the doors off of weaker teams that prevous years groups would have beaten by 10 or 15 maybe. I really think this team is really going to struggle against top competition. The foul calls really took both teams out of their comfort zones last night, too.

Zagme-totheleft!
11-23-2007, 07:58 AM
I think some people are not giving Western Kentucky enough credit for their influence on how the Zags played. The Hilltoppers are a legit sweet 16 caliber team. Gonzaga didn't "play down" to the competition. When it is all said and done, WKU might be the 4th or 5th best team Gonzaga faces this entire regular season.

Get used to these games folks. GU is going to have to fight hard to win almost every game from now until Josh and Steven get back.

We could argue whether or not GU played down to WKU, but I think its fair to say that we have the tendency to play down to teams in the past.

Agreed that we should have to get used to those games, because no matter the competition, we always seem to hand our opponents more opportunities than we should, whether that is through missed free throw, unforced turnovers, etc.

KSTATEZAG
11-23-2007, 08:05 AM
your missing my point. I'm trying to make it semi-obvious that its not a problem of us playing up to a team like Memphis, but more the pure fact that we can't play at that level. We just aren't as good as we think. You can't just practice more 3s an free throws to magically solve a skill problem.

We played Memphis last year with less talent and experience and held our ground, nearly won.
We lost D-Rav, and Mallon had no impact in that particular game. But we gained Sacre and Daye. Micah is more developed. Pargo looks about the same and Kuso is more devloped I think without question.
So I think we are as good as we think...it just hasn't come together yet.
Give it time and hopefully as we learn to play we can pull together some wins.

deathchina
11-23-2007, 08:10 AM
Am I the only person that isn't in love with Courtney Lee's game? He is a VERY VERY effective college player. However, he looked a bit stiff/robotic at times, and I don't think he'll be anything more than a role player in the NBA. He clearly has worked VERY VERY hard on his body and his skills, and I do hope he does well.

Anyone catch Beasley's last game? 30 and 10. I wonder how much longer he can keep this up...

KSTATEZAG
11-23-2007, 08:16 AM
Am I the only person that isn't in love with Courtney Lee's game? He is a VERY VERY effective college player. However, he looked a bit stiff/robotic at times, and I don't think he'll be anything more than a role player in the NBA. He clearly has worked VERY VERY hard on his body and his skills, and I do hope he does well.

Anyone catch Beasley's last game? 30 and 10. I wonder how much longer he can keep this up...

DC...I love beasley. He is a very hard worker, not a real flashy "me, me, me" player--just a bruiser with some touch. I think on that team he'll be a 30/10 pretty regularly. But he is undersized for PF at the next level. I think he'll really be disrupted in the League.

And as far as Lee is concerned. I agree. However I was impressed by his touch in the end of the first half and into the second. He was hitting everything.

Reborn
11-23-2007, 08:17 AM
Great game Zags against a very good Western Kentucky team. WK had a reallly tough defensive team, and Zags ajusted to it in the end. GU controlled the tempo and ran their offense pretty darn good I thought, and that brought the victory. Plus, as we know our defense.

Oh by the way....LG and others held Brazilton to 8 pts, and Lee to 18 = 26. They average 45 together. I'd say that's pretty good defense. Some of you guys are funny. Brazilton and Lee are great players.....give our guys some credit ,man.

J-Lo
11-23-2007, 08:18 AM
BTW...Gonzaga is now 14/70 from the 3 point line this season. 20%. The majority of that is Pargo and Bouldin. That's not good folks.

That was my biggest concern coming out of this game as well. The 3-point ball is something that we've always been able to rely on to some degree. It's an offensive weapon that has to exist in your arsenal. If teams know you can't make the 3, they'll just clog the interior and let you throw up bricks all day.

Zagme-totheleft!
11-23-2007, 08:20 AM
LG and others held Brazilton to 8 pts, and Lee to 18 = 26. They average 45 together. I'd say that's pretty good defense. Some of you guys are funny. Brazilton and Lee are great players.....give our guys some credit ,man.

Finally, someone giving us the love that we deserve.

CDC84
11-23-2007, 08:25 AM
Speaking of big name freshmen, Mayo had 20 points on 7-15 from the field last night against San Diego. USD played pretty good against USC last night. They only lost 60-50, and only trailed by 4 at the half.

Beasley is terrific, but I am not sold by the quality of the team that surrounds him, which makes anything that he does all the more special. I watched a good deal of that game, and George Mason was in total control of that game from start to finish.

You know, as much as Austin Daye got shoved around last night and struggled, he still went 4-8 from the field, went 2-2 from the FT line, had 2 blocks and one steal. It wasn't a good game for him, but there are a lot of players who would be happy with that stat line.

KSTATEZAG
11-23-2007, 08:31 AM
Speaking of big name freshmen, Mayo had 20 points on 7-15 from the field last night against San Diego. USD played pretty good against USC last night. They only lost 60-50, and only trailed by 4 at the half.

Beasley is terrific, but I am not sold by the quality of the team that surrounds him, which makes anything that he does all the more special. I watched a good deal of that game, and George Mason was in total control of that game from start to finish.
Agreed.
Billy Walker is a ball hog and the 'Cats don't really have anything else going for them.
What I like about beasley is he plays within the system and works hard for what he gets...a rich man's Psycho T.

Ohh and to make this relevant with the thread--I think our 3 point shooting stinks as well :)

sittingon50
11-23-2007, 08:52 AM
Nice point on Daye, CDC. Didn't get to watch the game but other than the fouls, his line looks fine. Will be interested in how quickly he can adapt 'cause I'm pretty sure Mr. Knight's teams play a little D also.

mendiant
11-23-2007, 11:00 AM
Nice point on Daye, CDC. Didn't get to watch the game but other than the fouls, his line looks fine. Will be interested in how quickly he can adapt 'cause I'm pretty sure Mr. Knight's teams play a little D also.

In general, I'm really looking forward to some tough match-ups and sticky wicket games...

It will prove the character of the in coming guys and assist them in becoming great Zags.

Also noted, the number of scoring options this year. All 4 games have had at least 4 Zags in double digits scoring...not always the same guys.

It may be a silly observation, but one I like...shows a solid team effort.

Reborn
11-23-2007, 01:11 PM
I know our 3 pt shooting is very bad. But how about the points in the paint. Last night against the Hilltoppers it was 46-26. Mmmm Nice.:)
In was one of the keys to the game I thought. Some of those came off offensive rebounds. Speaking of rebounding. We won that battle too...by 13.

Points in the paint, in my opinion, are a reflection of team work and good passing (running the offensive sets). GU is running their Offense pretty well for this early in the year, I think. Our 46 points in the paint led to a slightly better field goal %, and definately led to more free throws where (although we missed 10) we probably won the game (they missed more than we did I think). Downs is attacking the basket, Pargo is attacking, Bouldin attacks, LG as well. Kuso is the recipient of many, many good passes inside, and still does mishandle a few of tem (but there is improvement though).

former1dog
11-23-2007, 01:17 PM
Am I the only person that isn't in love with Courtney Lee's game? He is a VERY VERY effective college player. However, he looked a bit stiff/robotic at times, and I don't think he'll be anything more than a role player in the NBA.

DC,

You are the resident NBA expert around here, but I'll have to disagree with you regarding Lee. He didn't seem robotic at all to me, unless you mean automatic when faced with an open shot. :)

To me, he looked like a good NBAer, not just a role player. Lightning quick, able to put it up from anywhere on the court with confidence, extremely strong and a very good athlete.

ZagsGoZags
11-23-2007, 02:52 PM
earlier someone mentioned team system coming together, and working as a unit
It is a good point, I think, so say we haven't come together yet. There was an interesting article on the Butler Bulldogs that players that fit into the sysstem are more important than their rankings in the nation. We can compare and compute the indiv. skill of our tall, talented players, but eventually, how well will we click as a team. I see tremendous effort, from every single player, so I believe we will eventually find our rythymn and chemistry, but it sure isn't there yet.

CDC84
11-23-2007, 04:02 PM
Butler was an absolute machine against Michigan. Their offense clicked Wednesday night like Duke Ellington's orchestra.

Regarding Courtney Lee = a concern with him at the next level is his propensity to turn the ball over as a wing player. His 6 turnovers last night were very costly to his team. I also know he had a 9 turnover game versus Nebraska last season. I know some of that is him forcing the action due to him being the best player on his team, but he needs to take better care of the basketball.

zag67
11-23-2007, 04:30 PM
I agree with Kstate.

Remember, in another month we will get Steven and Josh back. Josh is suppose to be our number 1 big man. We have played without him and in a great game (against a hard working WKU team) we played hard and won. WKU played a very physical game all over the court. They double and triple teamed whenever they could. They have one of the best players in college ball in Lee and a super quick guard that attacked our players all over the court. They pushed us out of our comfort zone, yet we came back and won. We only made 18 out of 28 ft, but we made the last 8. Micah looks better in the flow and the freshmen both held their own. Also we played without Steven and Coach was saying he was playing better than all of the rest of the new players. That would mean he and Josh were getting most of the practice reps and then crash.

These are all positives to build from. Are we going to win the next 5 games? Probably not. Hopefully we can go 3 and 2 (2 and 3 will not be that bad). If we can do that good a start, then we start getting the others back.

TheBunnieRancher
11-23-2007, 05:37 PM
:horse: The thing I'm most impressed with at this point is the mental toughness of this team. While we're worrying about our 3-point shooting, ESPN is running the stat of our rebounding dominance so far this season. Our overall shooting has been consistenly above 50% and our number of possessions much greater than our opponents. A good way to overcome someone else's long range shooting. :horse:

ZagNative
11-23-2007, 05:52 PM
FoxSports Head-to-Head Comparison (http://msn.foxsports.com/cbk/headToHeadTeamResults?statsId1=233&statsId2=592&):

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/2039/texastechheadtoheadqi8.jpg

Follow the link for more stats comparisons.

deathchina
11-23-2007, 06:30 PM
Regarding Lee,

I'm no expert, and I'll probably be totally wrong about Lee. While he is an excellent college player, and a good shooter, I don't see the "flow" in his game. It's hard to explain. Just seems like he is stuck on the "fast fast fast" speed, and he doesn't change speeds well. He also doesn't handle very well for a wing player (as cdc pointed out), and doesn't always react to the defense. While he is very good at shooting, attacks the rim well, etc etc, I'm not sure he always reads the defense correctly and REACTS with the correct play. It's almost like he decides as he receives the ball "Ok, I"m gonna drive this time" or "ok, I'm gonna shoot this time". It doesn't seem like he is reacting to what the defense gives him as the play unfolds. Just a feeling I got while watching the game. I'm probably dumb/crazy.

former1dog
11-23-2007, 06:36 PM
DC,

Time will tell. It sounds like we're both impressed with the guy, just in different ways. You do have a better eye for the NBA than I, so we'll see.