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View Full Version : Derek Raivio or Drew Neitzel...



youreachiteach
02-21-2007, 11:42 AM
Whose the better PG? Both are having great statistical seasons. Drew's ppg avg has blown big time this yr, with the departure of Ager and Brown. He's tough, a leader, a solid defender and has led this MSU team to a great record considering all the young players. Raivio ppg is up as well, he's been GU most consistent scorer, maybe not player, but always gets his ponts.

I think Raivio may be a slightly better shooter, but Neitzel has leadership, toughness, defense, playmaking and grit over DR. Neitzel beat #1 Wisconsin last nite, and he's the uncontested leader of that team. He had over 20pts in the 2nd half vs Ohio ST as well a few weeks back.

Neitzel is a Jr while DR is a Sr.

Neitzel's NBA stock is rising.

jazzdelmar
02-21-2007, 11:59 AM
DR isnt a PG, for starters. Hasnt been for most of the year. That guy pounding the ball in the deep backcourt with 5 to shoot is......other than that, u seem to answer ur own question. DR's having a fine year, his best, but Drew is a better college guard all round...with a year to go.......

CDC84
02-21-2007, 01:08 PM
Raivio. He's a better fit for the Gonzaga system. How the scouts project them at the next level is a different story...kind of like how I would've taken JP Batista over Josh Boone on last year's GU team.

VinnyZag
02-21-2007, 11:08 PM
Someone keep a list of all of Jazz's snide comments about Pargo. I want to remind him of them next year, when Pargo's the conference player of the year and a second-team All American.

meadgrad02
02-21-2007, 11:28 PM
i wouldn't trade drav for drew. i really love how he's become more and more aggressive.

ExtremeJim
02-22-2007, 05:47 AM
Someone keep a list of all of Jazz's snide comments about Pargo.

That's going to be impossible, on a message board with an "Ignore This Member" feature--no one will read them in the first place.

gozagswoohoo
02-22-2007, 06:57 AM
but Neitzel has leadership

Don't know if I'd completely agree here...DRav has single-handedly taken over a game more than once. You could also say that's toughness...

Both are great, but as the others said above, they're completely different with different roles.

former1dog
02-22-2007, 07:22 AM
when Pargo's the conference player of the year and a second-team All American.

Vinny,

I wouldn't count Pargo out completely this year. He's had a nice season and at least one POM award.

Sentimentally, I would like to see DRAV get it. But, a logical argument could be made for Pargo, THIS YEAR.

Personally, I'd give it to DRAV by just a smidgen on our team over Pargo. Of course, a player from another team could win it as well.

Zag79
02-22-2007, 12:50 PM
raivio over neitzel. i watch alot of college hoops as im sure many of you do and to me its almost a no brainer. i disagree that neitzels d, toughness, playmaking and grit are better than raivio. lol. if it wasnt for dr's toughness and grit he woulda been gone along time ago, ask anyone that knows him. dr's handles are better than neitzel, his shooting is better, he sets up plays as good if not better, and his d is equal to neitzels although ill give quicker hands to drav in the steals category (almost double the steals per game). sorry, but ill take derek over neitzel anyday.

youreachiteach
02-22-2007, 01:09 PM
DR's toughness comes from getting mad when he doesnt get the ball. His D has been horrid for 4 yrs now, yeah THE WCC competition helps him get steals, but watch him defend vs any non confrence opponent, and you'll see DR gets to know that back of player jersey's.

DR shoots it a bit better, but Neitzel's has been shooting over 40% from 3 this yr, draining three's vs Big 10 competition not WCC. Neitzel is a warrior, his D is way better, and watch Neiztel play and he's Tom Izzo on the court.

DR cant create his own shot or break his man down(now some blame Pargo for that now lol), but both shoot over 90% from the line as well.

Its natural for people to pick DR here, it is a GU board, but when counted on this yr, Raivio has led Gonzaga to its worst season in a long time, and probably no NCAA berth. Neitzel led Michigan St to a Final Four as Fr. starting on that team, and this season, with a bunch of Fr. and Sophs has them locked for a NCAA berth.

DR really showed alot of leadership down 35pts at Virginia in the 2nd half laughing at Burgess joke at the line, heh??

UberZagFan
02-22-2007, 01:17 PM
DR really showed alot of leadership down 35pts at Virginia in the 2nd half laughing at Burgess joke at the line, heh??

Someone is still beating this horse?


Zag79: Really no need for you to state your opinion here, is there?

;)

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/3692/60x60jessicaalbawg9.jpg

http://3gold.com/pictures/avatar/11.gif

Zag79
02-22-2007, 02:05 PM
couldnt help it. its such a moronic post i either need to reply or slap my granny...


His D has been horrid for 4 yrs now, yeah THE WCC competition helps him get steals, but watch him defend vs any non confrence opponent, and you'll see DR gets to know that back of player jersey's.
you must be talking about jarrett jack, nate robinson AND lucas from okie st. all nba players. loved it when he stripped jack and hit the 3... LOL



but Neitzel's has been shooting over 40% from 3 this yr, draining three's vs Big 10 competition not WCC. Neitzel is a warrior, his D is way better, and watch Neiztel play and he's Tom Izzo on the court.
raivios shooting 46%, and doing it against the toughest schedule in the NCAA. GU has played more top25 teams in their OOC schedule than anyone. ask nc or texas if raivio cant shoot like neitzel. LOL


DR cant create his own shot or break his man down(now some blame Pargo for that now lol), but both shoot over 90% from the line as well.
thats why he can cross up anyone. he can go by almost any defender, his problem isnt going by someone. and 96 to 89% isnt the same from the FT line.


stick to watching neitzel and co. pal. LOL...

sonuvazag
02-22-2007, 02:10 PM
couldnt help it. its such a moronic post i either need to reply or slap my granny... Zag79


LOL. BTW if Neitzel "leads" MSU to a Final Four as a freshman, where's their title?

ereiz03
02-22-2007, 02:10 PM
Neitzel over Raivio for sure. Neitzel is single-handedly carrying MSU to the Big Dance.

john montana
02-22-2007, 02:18 PM
what neitzel is doing this year is nothing short of amazing. msu doesn't have the overall talent level that we have (especially when we had josh.) this is another instance when stats don't tell the entire story. what neitzel has done this year is more impressive to me than what drav has done.

and for the record...it pains me to admit that. i can't stand the way Izzo coaches. his teams are like boston college...push shove and cross the line every possession so that the refs get numb and quit calling it. his NT team with Cleaves is probably my least favorite title team of all time. still, you gotta give neitzel credit. he's been a stud this year.

sanfranzagsguy20
02-22-2007, 02:25 PM
Neitzel led Michigan St to a Final Four as Fr.

i would argue that even though he played the point for them he certainly did not LEAD them there playing 16 minutes a game and averaging 3.5 ppg...sorry...

as for the debate..apples and oranges here because as cdc posted...drav is a great fit for the gu system and i would always take jp over josh boone in the gu system any day of the week...

NVzag
02-22-2007, 02:52 PM
After reading some of the comments in this thread...

Neitzel = Gerry McNamara?

;)

youreachiteach
02-22-2007, 04:02 PM
I guess Raivio is a perfect fit for GUs system, SOFT! Raivio would cry the 1st time Izzo would yell at him, not sure Few has in 4 yrs.

I'd like to see Raivio play half a season in the Big 10, he'd get beaten up so bad.

I like JP, so dont want to bash him here, but super mod left me mo choice. Josh Boone would have elbowed the UCLA player last yr, not give it away for UCLAs lead, and then watch DR dribble with his head down and TURN IT OVER while the player of th year was begging for the ball.

Neitzel: Final Four: Boone National Champion, DR, alot of WCC titles and early exits in the dance.

Raivio is a good player, Neitzel is better and most people here who know ball will admit to it.

Look at GU record this yr with our SR "leader".

mgadfly
02-22-2007, 05:10 PM
Statistically speaking, comparing a SG to a PG has its problems. However, with all the hype about DN you would think he was head and shoulders better than DR. But that just isn't the case unless you want to say that he is better at all of those non-quantifiable categories such as "toughness," "leadership," "playmaking," "grit," "guts," etc...

Better offensive player using tempo independent stats?
DR 123.3 ORTG (38th in the nation)
DN 122.2 ORTG (52nd in the nation)

Both are good, but Raivio is better.

Effective Field goal %?
DR 56.7% (201 in the nation)
DN 54.5% (342 in the nation)

Both are good, but Ravio is better.

Offensive Rebounding %:
DR 2.1%
DN 0.3%

Both are poor, but DR is 7 times better.

Defensive Rebounding %:
DR 7.7%
DN 9.9%

Both are poor, but DN is better.

FT Rate?
DR 34.2%
DN 32.2%

Both are good at getting to the line, but even with the ball in his hands less as a SG, DR gets to the line more often than DN.

Assist Rate?
DR 12.8%
DN 29.1% (104 in the nation)

This is where DN is much better than DR this year. He is a good passing PG while DR is a SG.

TO Rate?
DR 13.2 (104th in the nation)
DN 16.0 (360th in the nation)

DR is better as he takes care of the ball.

%blocks?
DR 0.1%
DN 1.1%

both are poor, but DN is 10 times more likely to block a shot.

% Steals? (more important than blocks for guards)
DR 2.3%
DN 1.6%



According to statistics, outside of DN's assist rate and defensive rebounding, Raivio is the superior player. He draws more fouls (maybe he is tougher than he is being given credit for, making contact and such?), he makes more of his shots, he runs down offensive rebounds more often (is that toughness that is required for this or grit, I can't remember), and pretty much has a better stat line.


The question for me is whether the 80th ranked SOS is that much different than the 25th ranked SOS. It would be interesting to compare Raivio's non conference #s with Neitzel's conference numbers. It is also interesting that Raivio is having such a good statistical year after moving to the SG position extremely late in his career.

Overall, DN doesn't have the size to play in the league, even considering all of his toughness and grit. I'd rather take a risk on DR as a late game shooter than DN as a PG if I were an NBA GM. But to answer your original question, who is the better PG? DN. Who is the better SG? DR.

sonuvazag
02-22-2007, 06:33 PM
Its natural for people to pick DR here, it is a GU board, but when counted on this yr, Raivio has led Gonzaga to its worst season in a long time, and probably no NCAA berth. Neitzel led Michigan St to a Final Four as Fr. starting on that team, and this season, with a bunch of Fr. and Sophs has them locked for a NCAA berth.


So is it unnatural from you to come in and provoke everyone? Neitzel's okay, most of us agree he's good so what's your point? Your point, though, of blaming the teams failures and success on one player is dumb da dumb dumb... dumb. In that case, I claim Raivio's win over Big 10 standout Deron Williams makes him as good as a top 5 NBA point guard in his second year.

Game. Set. and Match! What? What? Off me.

soonerterp
02-22-2007, 11:18 PM
The way I see it, Drew Neitzel is a great guard who works in Tom Izzo's system, and Derek Raivio is a great guard who works in Mark Few's system. Other than the fact they're both "voluntarily bald," I don't see much point in comparing them.

Zag79
02-23-2007, 11:41 AM
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