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LTownZag
06-26-2020, 01:23 PM
I wonder where Gonzaga fans are at. How confident are you that we’ll see a college basketball season with fewer than 5 cancelled games, and fans (at least 50% of normal occupancy) allowed in the stands? I’m calling that a “normal” year for the poll.

The final poll choice should be read as “0% confident and I don’t expect a season even w/o fans”.

Bouldin4Prez
06-26-2020, 01:56 PM
I wonder where Gonzaga fans are at. How confident are you that we’ll see a college basketball season with fewer than 5 cancelled games, and fans (at least 50% of normal occupancy) allowed in the stands? I’m calling that a “normal” year for the poll.

The final poll choice should be read as “0% confident and I don’t expect a season even w/o fans”.

Why didn't you just make all of the choices varying degrees of types of seasons? Having it be a % chance of a normal season but the %'s actually represent something entirely different is extremely confusing.

hockeyzag
06-26-2020, 02:32 PM
Why didn't you just make all of the choices varying degrees of types of seasons? Having it be a % chance of a normal season but the %'s actually represent something entirely different is extremely confusing.

Extremely confusing? Really?

Your hypothetical poll is just fine LTown.

Bouldin4Prez
06-26-2020, 02:42 PM
Extremely confusing? Really?

Your hypothetical poll is just fine LTown.

I expect a 0% chance of a normal season but I expect a season to take place. Which one do you think I should vote for?

NotoriousZ
06-26-2020, 03:49 PM
I expect a 0% chance of a normal season but I expect a season to take place. Which one do you think I should vote for?

I would vote for that option. A new poll would be better

Markburn1
06-26-2020, 04:05 PM
This poll kinda personifies my frustration at this point. There is very little in my life that is normal right now and the uncertainty of anything approaching that in the future is unsettling.

I love Gonzaga basketball but for right now the coming season is near the bottom of my list of importance. Funny thing is, it was right near the top up to and including my trip to Vegas for the WCC championship.

My faith and my family have always been the top priority but now they take on even more importance. I'm undecided on keeping my businesses or just retiring outright. That would affect several families. There are so many places I want to see with my family but I don't know when that will be possible. My mother is isolated in an assisted living home. I could go on, but you get my drift. Normal is not even on the horizon. I know the rest of you have some of the same concerns and there are a lot of folks in way worse financial and emotional states than I.

All I can say now is when or if Gonzaga makes it back on to the floor I will make time for it.

LTownZag
06-26-2020, 04:38 PM
Why didn't you just make all of the choices varying degrees of types of seasons? Having it be a % chance of a normal season but the %'s actually represent something entirely different is extremely confusing.

If you'd like a different poll created which has different options or gradations of deviance from normal, the option to create one is open to you, and I'd be interested in seeing the votes.

TexasZagFan
06-26-2020, 04:41 PM
A bit O/T, but my money’s on Team Corona beating the NFL.

MickMick
06-26-2020, 07:47 PM
Pearl Harbor unified the nation. 9/11 unified the nation.

Our current toxic, polarized political climate will not let us unify. Ever again.

The partisan divide, the profitability of disinformation, the news infrastructure business model structured around confirmation bias with a generational client niche built over decades, will never, ever allow us to be "normal" again. Normal being defined as a nation coming together, unified in performing logical counter measures for a given great adversity, believing in and using proven, predictable scientific methods, and using peer pressure to discredit those that negatively politicize such necessary actions. As it now stands, we are on a slippery slope and economic disaster is looming.

For cripes sake. Even the CDC recommended act of wearing a face covering apparently determines where our partisanship lies. This confusion of personal freedom with societal responsibility is really a testimony for any given individual's character. I know it goes a long ways towards how I might regard a person.

Regardless, because we cannot overcome our collective stupidity, there will be no season. Zero percent chance. We are going to be talking about the staggering economic cost of uncontrolled pandemic instead.

GonzaGAW
06-26-2020, 08:12 PM
- mick-mick, agree with most all you said, but nonetheless i voted i'm confident in having a season this year.

- if we do not, i do not think it is because of collective stupidity, rather a lack of fortitude and courage.

- go zags

Unbiased
06-26-2020, 09:11 PM
Pearl Harbor unified the nation. 9/11 unified the nation.

Our current toxic, polarized political climate will not let us unify. Ever again.

The partisan divide, the profitability of disinformation, the news infrastructure business model structured around confirmation bias with a generational client niche built over decades, will never, ever allow us to be "normal" again. Normal being defined as a nation coming together, unified in performing logical counter measures for a given great adversity, believing in and using proven, predictable scientific methods, and using peer pressure to discredit those that negatively politicize such necessary actions. As it now stands, we are on a slippery slope and economic disaster is looming.

For cripes sake. Even the CDC recommended act of wearing a face covering apparently determines where our partisanship lies. This confusion of personal freedom with societal responsibility is really a testimony for any given individual's character. I know it goes a long ways towards how I might regard a person.

Regardless, because we cannot overcome our collective stupidity, there will be no season. Zero percent chance. We are going to be talking about the staggering economic cost of uncontrolled pandemic instead.

Its a sad, polarizing, and frustrating time. I whole heartily agree with your assessment.

LTownZag
06-26-2020, 09:14 PM
Pearl Harbor unified the nation. 9/11 unified the nation.

Our current toxic, polarized political climate will not let us unify. Ever again.

The partisan divide, the profitability of disinformation, the news infrastructure business model structured around confirmation bias with a generational client niche built over decades, will never, ever allow us to be "normal" again. Normal being defined as a nation coming together, unified in performing logical counter measures for a given great adversity, believing in and using proven, predictable scientific methods, and using peer pressure to discredit those that negatively politicize such necessary actions. As it now stands, we are on a slippery slope and economic disaster is looming.

For cripes sake. Even the CDC recommended act of wearing a face covering apparently determines where our partisanship lies. This confusion of personal freedom with societal responsibility is really a testimony for any given individual's character. I know it goes a long ways towards how I might regard a person.

Regardless, because we cannot overcome our collective stupidity, there will be no season. Zero percent chance. We are going to be talking about the staggering economic cost of uncontrolled pandemic instead.


It is with a sad heart that I find myself nodding in agreement to much of this.

I also don't seen any likely or even moderately probable solutions to the kind of deep hole you describe us being in as a nation.

ZagsGoZags
06-27-2020, 02:45 AM
in the first month or so i saw the nation, and for the most part world, largely unified.
i see the disagreements about when, and how much pace to put on normalization until a tested and effective vaccine emerges, to be a rational debate with evidence on both sides.
the reason it seems the polarization is hopeless, i think, is it has gotten to be partly a red and blue thing, which is the demoralizing and entrenched aspect
IMHO

caduceus
06-27-2020, 04:26 AM
Pearl Harbor unified the nation. 9/11 unified the nation.

Our current toxic, polarized political climate will not let us unify. Ever again.

The partisan divide, the profitability of disinformation, the news infrastructure business model structured around confirmation bias with a generational client niche built over decades, will never, ever allow us to be "normal" again. Normal being defined as a nation coming together, unified in performing logical counter measures for a given great adversity, believing in and using proven, predictable scientific methods, and using peer pressure to discredit those that negatively politicize such necessary actions. As it now stands, we are on a slippery slope and economic disaster is looming.

For cripes sake. Even the CDC recommended act of wearing a face covering apparently determines where our partisanship lies. This confusion of personal freedom with societal responsibility is really a testimony for any given individual's character. I know it goes a long ways towards how I might regard a person.

Regardless, because we cannot overcome our collective stupidity, there will be no season. Zero percent chance. We are going to be talking about the staggering economic cost of uncontrolled pandemic instead.

And...the voice of reason again, and again, and again coming from you, MickMick aka avatar Jed. Always I find an intelligent response from you (basketball or otherwise). Who ARE you? :)

I feel that despite Vietnam and 9/11, the "heartland" hasn't experienced a real hardship since WWII. Most of us haven't had to ration food or collect tires or sacrifice anything significant that would actually disrupt our lives. It's not hard to put a yellow ribbon on your trunk, or put up a yard sign, or struggle for toilet paper. I agree that coming together as a nation is now beyond us. Recently, the worst we've had to deal with is plopping ourselves on the couch for months with Netflix, home deliveries, and struggling if we're manly enough to WEAR A CLOTH on our face. Oh, the horror.

It's not real if it isn't affecting you or someone close. If we were attacked by a foreign country that covertly invaded and injured 2,553,686 and killed 127,649 Americans since February 15, would we be up in arms? Would YOU turn out your lights during an air raid, or would that violate your freedoms? Something's wrong. Very.

Collective stupidity says it all.

Stay safe, Spokane. Opening up means it's likely coming to your neighborhood, too. I worked at SH, Deaconess briefly, and Valley years ago. At the time, Sacred Heart was just fine and dandy if you smoked in your room as long as you didn't start a fire, and that wasn't so long ago. If you think they have enough capacity or capability, don't be surprised if you need a life flight to Seattle or SLC when you can't get enough oxygen. Just ask Houston: https://outline.com/ajYUb9

https://i.imgur.com/9YAf2ao.jpg

BurgessEraZag
06-27-2020, 08:35 AM
Wasn't it you that said the problem is "people" think this involves an ON-OFF switch? You are probably right about what people think. But isn't there room for moderate avenues of progress toward recovery. Even though I'm a compliant patient with the "rules" is my character in question because I'm not totally happy with it? My Jesuit education told me "morality is in the order of intention" so if I subscribe to good, safe and healthy results do I meet everyone's standard for character even though I'm not happy with what's going on?

Most posters on this site are a helluva lot better at Hoops expertise and comments than evaluating people's character they don't even know.

caduceus
06-27-2020, 09:25 AM
Wasn't it you that said the problem is "people" think this involves an ON-OFF switch? You are probably right about what people think. But isn't there room for moderate avenues of progress toward recovery. Even though I'm a compliant patient with the "rules" is my character in question because I'm not totally happy with it? My Jesuit education told me "morality is in the order of intention" so if I subscribe to good, safe and healthy results do I meet everyone's standard for character even though I'm not happy with what's going on?

Most posters on this site are a helluva lot better at Hoops expertise and comments than evaluating people's character they don't even know.

Treasure your Jesuit education...you learned critical thinking at a young age, which is "critically" important. Yes, I said a significant portion of the population wants to follow ON or OFF in terms of the response to this pandemic. Moderate avenues is what is required, but unfortunately, not necessarily desired in our society. That's part of why we have 128,000 dead (almost a quarter of the world's deaths) with only 4% of the world's population, and the next country is less than half that. NONE of us are happy about it...you are not alone.

Your character is fine. Compliance is smart in this (and your) situation. Be safe. Be informed. Respond with the knowledge you have (which is your power). Help those that need it (especially by wearing a mask to protect those around you in public). Be proactive. Your opinion is not the minority, as most want what you do also.

One former Jebbie dean dragged me to Idaho to espouse the virtues of a Jesuit education. Another put me on the evening news after a GU prayer event. Another saved me from from actual Federal charges when it turned out another student committed a crime, not me.

And one married me to my wife. Treasure it.

Best,

=cad=

Hit me up if you need anything. Someone stuck the Covid thread in the dungeon for no apparent reason. I posted this link from National Geographic. I think it's informative: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/06/how-to-stop-coronavirus-surges-from-winning-the-war-cvd/

Mantua
06-27-2020, 09:34 AM
And...the voice of reason again, and again, and again coming from you, MickMick aka avatar Jed. Always I find an intelligent response from you (basketball or otherwise). Who ARE you? :)

I feel that despite Vietnam and 9/11, the "heartland" hasn't experienced a real hardship since WWII. Most of us haven't had to ration food or collect tires or sacrifice anything significant that would actually disrupt our lives. It's not hard to put a yellow ribbon on your trunk, or put up a yard sign, or struggle for toilet paper. I agree that coming together as a nation is now beyond us. Recently, the worst we've had to deal with is plopping ourselves on the couch for months with Netflix, home deliveries, and struggling if we're manly enough to WEAR A CLOTH on our face. Oh, the horror.

It's not real if it isn't affecting you or someone close. If we were attacked by a foreign country that covertly invaded and injured 2,553,686 and killed 127,649 Americans since February 15, would we be up in arms? Would YOU turn out your lights during an air raid, or would that violate your freedoms? Something's wrong. Very.

Collective stupidity says it all.

Stay safe, Spokane. Opening up means it's likely coming to your neighborhood, too. I worked at SH, Deaconess briefly, and Valley years ago. At the time, Sacred Heart was just fine and dandy if you smoked in your room as long as you didn't start a fire, and that wasn't so long ago. If you think they have enough capacity or capability, don't be surprised if you need a life flight to Seattle or SLC when you can't get enough oxygen. Just ask Houston: https://outline.com/ajYUb9

https://i.imgur.com/9YAf2ao.jpg

I’m not much for memes but I like one I saw on Instagram today. "Wearing a mask is not a political statement. It’s an IQ test."

MDABE80
06-27-2020, 11:23 AM
Once again, this is a fool's errand . Nobody knows. I wouldn't spend much time on this. Seems like the likilhoods changes every day. Media makes it look awful ( for their own reasons) but the actual overall is not being discussed. Fear is a funny thing...freezes you in a mode that may make some feel better but the data on this is far from finished. Up and down in a few states in general do not change the overall by much.

Overall , the infections, hospitalizations, deaths are going in the right direction ( down). Media points you to the worst cases to get your attention. And most believes the media as a source to be trusted. But back to this post, UW predictions have been universally wrong and inflated. And yet the media is hanging their collective hats on that source. Now I'm certain fancy graphs will be displayed from some sources. cherry picking to porve or dispute a point with influence the public. Johns Hopkins is the one to be trusted..and that data shows things are slowly getting better despite outbreaks in some states.

Tony Fauci says we'll have plenty of vaccines byt mid December. If that's true, constant vigilance will still in order.

All this said, nobody can know for sure if the season will proceed on schedule. I think so if thee trend is followed but once the masks come off, distance isn't protected. anything can happen. Not to mention the virus seems to be attenuating. ...mishmash of info. The liklihood an under 25yr healthy group will get the disease is in the range of 0.3 % if they observe the masks, distance etc.

zagamatic
06-27-2020, 12:07 PM
All I know is that the people I have personally talked to who have known someone who died under the official designation of covid19 all said the same thing......none of them died from covid19, COPD, cancer, heart disease.....yes, but not the covid19 as it was officially written down as by the government. Again this is not internet rumor, this is talking directly to people with knowledge of the medical conditions that caused these people's deaths.
I'm not saying that the virus isn't capable of killing people or even complicating existing conditions. But to just blindly believe the "facts" as they're being reported.....as the saying goes, I've got oceanfront property in Arizona.

Zags11
06-27-2020, 12:38 PM
I said it in a different thread but its all how MLB, NBA and NFL go. If MLB and NBA do a good job and NFL when it starts does well, im confident. If not? Nope. I think it wont happen so i voted 1%-25%. MLB or NBA will have a issue and it will ruin College sports.


I wish for normal again.

LTownZag
06-27-2020, 01:01 PM
Overall , the infections, hospitalizations, deaths are going in the right direction ( down).


Over the what stretch of time (since what date) do you believe infections and hospitalizations have been going down? Are you telling this to your patients?

kitzbuel
06-27-2020, 01:09 PM
All I know is that the people I have personally talked to who have known someone who died under the official designation of covid19 all said the same thing......none of them died from covid19, COPD, cancer, heart disease.....yes, but not the covid19 as it was officially written down as by the government. Again this is not internet rumor, this is talking directly to people with knowledge of the medical conditions that caused these people's deaths.
I'm not saying that the virus isn't capable of killing people or even complicating existing conditions. But to just blindly believe the "facts" as they're being reported.....as the saying goes, I've got oceanfront property in Arizona.
If you have one of those conditions you mention and catch COVID-19 your likelihood of dying while having COVID-19 increases dramatically. These are people that would be alive without COVID-19 and then die when they have it.

tinfoilzag
06-27-2020, 01:14 PM
Even if the metrics being used for measuring Covid-19's impact were correct (which they aren't) it's all just academic.

A cornerstone of the american way is that you are your own sovereign and are allowed to decide how much risk you take as long as it doesn't damage others. If you want to free climb sheer cliffs, or wrestle tigers, or drink yourself to death; you can decide your own risk appetite. If it kills you, fine, as long as you only hurt yourself.

The problem with a pandemic, is that it requires everyone to have the same risk appetite as an individual's choices are seen as a threat to the group. This doesn't work for American's because of the loss of individual liberty.

American's are fine with being told what not to do and they are even ok with being asked to do something but they won't be told what to do. It's goes back to the constitution and bill of rights not saying what liberties are given but what liberties the government can't take away.

The pandemic has finally given officials what they have always dreamed of: the ability to change behavior through force. They won't want to give it up. They will keep telling everyone to wait just one more month for things to get better and if you are against it they will say you hate science and want to kill people. The will use the right reason to do the wrong thing.

I don't think there will be a season because it is not in the interest of our governor and that's the only thing that matters for this poll.

MDABE80
06-27-2020, 01:39 PM
I think Tin's got it. Since AOL dropped her tweet urging governors to keep states closed lest the economy pick up and Trump gets the votes. In that tweet she says flat out that it would be better for companies to close and more unemployment would be her wish so Trump won't be reelected . She says it's a small price to pay for her party to be elected. It's corrupt as heck and it's going on. So some may say "Keep politics out of this"....it's a bit late. Politics is woven throughout. sadly. Look at Mick Mick's post...….it's inextricable and did not begin with the present President. It's gotten worse...……

DZ
06-27-2020, 01:41 PM
Pearl Harbor unified the nation. 9/11 unified the nation.

Our current toxic, polarized political climate will not let us unify. Ever again.

The partisan divide, the profitability of disinformation, the news infrastructure business model structured around confirmation bias with a generational client niche built over decades, will never, ever allow us to be "normal" again. Normal being defined as a nation coming together, unified in performing logical counter measures for a given great adversity, believing in and using proven, predictable scientific methods, and using peer pressure to discredit those that negatively politicize such necessary actions. As it now stands, we are on a slippery slope and economic disaster is looming.

For cripes sake. Even the CDC recommended act of wearing a face covering apparently determines where our partisanship lies. This confusion of personal freedom with societal responsibility is really a testimony for any given individual's character. I know it goes a long ways towards how I might regard a person.

Regardless, because we cannot overcome our collective stupidity, there will be no season. Zero percent chance. We are going to be talking about the staggering economic cost of uncontrolled pandemic instead.

Yes. This.

Though, surprisingly, and against what I'd expected, I am seeing some extremely hopeful signs just over the last two months when it comes to unity. There won't be unity like Pearl Harbor, or even 9-11, but just in the last couple months it seems like we've turned a corner on some things.

Unfortunately, there will likely be some very hard days between now and when we build back up together, but at least it can be seen in the vista now.

Gonzdb8
06-27-2020, 01:47 PM
I think Tin's got it. Since AOL dropped her tweet urging governors to keep states closed lest the economy pick up and Trump gets the votes. In that tweet she says flat out that it would be better for companies to close and more unemployment would be her wish so Trump won't be reelected . She says it's a small price to pay for her party to be elected. It's corrupt as heck and it's going on. So some may say "Keep politics out of this"....it's a bit late. Politics is woven throughout. sadly. Look at Mick Mick's post...….it's inextricable and did not begin with the present President. It's gotten worse...……

I think you meant AOC, not AOL. The tweet you reference prominently in your post is a fabrication. Perhaps you could do a little research before spreading disinformation. Thank you.

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/06/fake-aoc-tweet-politicizes-covid-19-business-restrictions/

DZ
06-27-2020, 02:05 PM
I think Tin's got it. Since AOL dropped her tweet urging governors to keep states closed lest the economy pick up and Trump gets the votes. In that tweet she says flat out that it would be better for companies to close and more unemployment would be her wish so Trump won't be reelected . She says it's a small price to pay for her party to be elected. It's corrupt as heck and it's going on. So some may say "Keep politics out of this"....it's a bit late. Politics is woven throughout. sadly. Look at Mick Mick's post...….it's inextricable and did not begin with the present President. It's gotten worse...……

Which tweet? I assume you mean AOC, I went back to June 1st, do I need to keep going?


I don't believe there will be a season. We're seeing it raise up all across the country and basketball is likely the sport least conducive to playing during the epidemic.

MDABE80
06-27-2020, 02:55 PM
I think you meant AOC, not AOL. The tweet you reference prominently in your post is a fabrication. Perhaps you could do a little research before spreading disinformation. Thank you.

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/06/fake-aoc-tweet-politicizes-covid-19-business-restrictions/
AOC and it was posted and widely circulated. She didn't refute it. Thats the research done on your favorite communist.

LTownZag
06-27-2020, 03:06 PM
AOC and it was posted and widely circulated. She didn't refute it. Thats the research done on your favorite communist.

I will donate $300 to your favorite politician or charity if you can back up this claim, which you’ve now doubled down on.

And I’ll give $30 to the charity, and post proof, if you admit your susceptibility to confirmation bias and acknowledge you read/spread a false far-right conspiracy theory and then reflexively doubled down when called on it, while insulting user “Gonzdb8”.

TexasZagFan
06-27-2020, 04:21 PM
I will donate $300 to your favorite politician or charity if you can back up this claim, which you’ve now doubled down on.

And I’ll give $30 to the charity, and post proof, if you admit your susceptibility to confirmation bias and acknowledge you read/spread a false far-right conspiracy theory and then reflexively doubled down when called on it, while insulting user “Gonzdb8”.

Rather than issue another snarky comment, I'm going for a 5 mile walk in 92 degree weather, and I'm not going to wear a mask...though I bought one last night that bears a striking resemblance to my avatar.

This thread, like others, is really pissing me off...if you don't like one person's stance, then it's a straight shot to personal attacks. Eff that. Childish to say "I'll donate xxx to your favorite charity", this is a freaking internet forum.

LTownZag
06-27-2020, 04:42 PM
Rather than issue another snarky comment, I'm going for a 5 mile walk in 92 degree weather, and I'm not going to wear a mask...though I bought one last night that bears a striking resemblance to my avatar.

This thread, like others, is really pissing me off...if you don't like one person's stance, then it's a straight shot to personal attacks. Eff that. Childish to say "I'll donate xxx to your favorite charity", this is a freaking internet forum.

Honest question: Why are you more bothered by my offer to give my money to charity if MDABE80 either backs up his (false) claim or if he tells the truth, than you are apparently bothered by his double down spreading a conspiratorial lie while he insults Gonzdb8 in the process? I put my personal money on the line, in public, to display my genuine commitment to either outcome as the facts support.

I offered him a large incentive if he could give evidence of his claim. He couldn't.

I offered him a smaller incentive if he would simply do the upstanding thing and acknowledge his lie, which he had repeated without evidence while insulting someone in the process.

I couldn't convince him to do either of the above, but thought a public airing of evidence either way, with proceeds to charity, might be preferable to ignoring more disinformation. I'm fascinated by the psychology leading to your conclusion that the personal attack was against MDABE80 by me, and a reaction wherein my response to MDABE80 is what's "really pissing you off". It certainly isn't my intent to personally attack someone or piss you off.

DZ
06-27-2020, 05:46 PM
Even if the metrics being used for measuring Covid-19's impact were correct (which they aren't) it's all just academic.

A cornerstone of the american way is that you are your own sovereign and are allowed to decide how much risk you take as long as it doesn't damage others. If you want to free climb sheer cliffs, or wrestle tigers, or drink yourself to death; you can decide your own risk appetite. If it kills you, fine, as long as you only hurt yourself.

The problem with a pandemic, is that it requires everyone to have the same risk appetite as an individual's choices are seen as a threat to the group. This doesn't work for American's because of the loss of individual liberty.

American's are fine with being told what not to do and they are even ok with being asked to do something but they won't be told what to do. It's goes back to the constitution and bill of rights not saying what liberties are given but what liberties the government can't take away.

The pandemic has finally given officials what they have always dreamed of: the ability to change behavior through force. They won't want to give it up. They will keep telling everyone to wait just one more month for things to get better and if you are against it they will say you hate science and want to kill people. The will use the right reason to do the wrong thing.

I don't think there will be a season because it is not in the interest of our governor and that's the only thing that matters for this poll.

It is not a cornerstone of the American way to be your own sovereign. Try dumping your business waste in a river without a permit and see how fast your sovereignty runs out. The American way is compromising our outright freedom to keep from hurting others. It is a balance.

Officials haven't "dreamed of" this kind of power, that's a myth and a very hurtful one. Your pronouncement about your freedoms are oblivious to the risk you're running. EVEN if we say that you only get yourself sick, you could easily end up in the ICU. "My choice" you say? Yes, your choice to risk the lives of people who then have to save yours, such as my family members. You also take up resources in those hospitals that are not at all unlimited, ask NYC, Houston, Montgomery.

Then we get into the fact that your demand to walk around mask free and eat at restaurants, carry on business, etc. is behavior likely to spread it more to people who also get sick, and then we're back in the hospital.

Disasters have always meant temporary crackdowns on freedom. Try entering an area just hit by a hurricane, or earthquake. Your freedom to assemble where you want will run right up against barriers keeping you out.

We try to maximize freedom by balancing it with keeping others free to live safely. You can't have 6 beers and drive home even though the "risk is mine," it also infringes on others. If you try to use your private property for business purposes, it gets shut down bc it drags down property values around you. It's a balance. You have to build to fire code to protect others, pay a minum wage to employees … etc. etc. society balances personal freedoms with others freedom. Where that balance falls moves in accord with how we govern ourselves.

Nothing wrong with a libertarian bent. But there's lots wrong with the assumption that it's the purest, best, way to live. It can be extremely harmful to others, and often people care too little

willandi
06-27-2020, 06:10 PM
I said it before and I'll say it again.

Lock down, everybody and every thing for 6 weeks. Only essentials. Health care, grocery and pharmacy to put you online or phone orders in the trunk. Truck drivers to deliver to food and prescripts to those places, Skeletal staff for utilities, for prescription delivery through the mail, and Law Enforcement to pick up those idiots that just refuse to obey. They will serve the 6 weeks (or until they are up) in jail, extended to 14 days after the lock down is over.
Every worker gets $5000, including landlords and bosses, but no corporations or companies. NO RENT for 2 months, but no payments to the banks by the landlords for two months. Utilities, cable tv, cell phone, credit cards etc get paid.
When the 6 weeks are up, people will burst out ready to spend that money. The economy will rebound.

We lose this season of MLB, Nascar etc, but we get ALL the college sports, the NFL and all fall, winter and spring sports. The NBA can go ahead because of their bubble/campus plan.
All tests go to health care, people that are transported and those they live with. Their quarantine lasts until they are proven clean.

tinfoilzag
06-27-2020, 06:50 PM
It is not a cornerstone of the American way to be your own sovereign. Try dumping your business waste in a river without a permit and see how fast your sovereignty runs out. The American way is compromising our outright freedom to keep from hurting others. It is a balance.

Officials haven't "dreamed of" this kind of power, that's a myth and a very hurtful one. Your pronouncement about your freedoms are oblivious to the risk you're running. EVEN if we say that you only get yourself sick, you could easily end up in the ICU. "My choice" you say? Yes, your choice to risk the lives of people who then have to save yours, such as my family members. You also take up resources in those hospitals that are not at all unlimited, ask NYC, Houston, Montgomery.

Then we get into the fact that your demand to walk around mask free and eat at restaurants, carry on business, etc. is behavior likely to spread it more to people who also get sick, and then we're back in the hospital.

Disasters have always meant temporary crackdowns on freedom. Try entering an area just hit by a hurricane, or earthquake. Your freedom to assemble where you want will run right up against barriers keeping you out.

We try to maximize freedom by balancing it with keeping others free to live safely. You can't have 6 beers and drive home even though the "risk is mine," it also infringes on others. If you try to use your private property for business purposes, it gets shut down bc it drags down property values around you. It's a balance. You have to build to fire code to protect others, pay a minum wage to employees … etc. etc. society balances personal freedoms with others freedom. Where that balance falls moves in accord with how we govern ourselves.

Nothing wrong with a libertarian bent. But there's lots wrong with the assumption that it's the purest, best, way to live. It can be extremely harmful to others, and often people care too little

I'm not sure what you read but you're arguing some other post. What does taking on personal risk have to do with polluting a public river? I didn't say "my choice" to put others at risk anywhere. I never said anything about the purest, best way to live. No idea where minimum wage came from.

Disasters mean "temporary" crackdowns on freedoms? Been to an airport lately? You can't fly domestically without government approved papers. FISA court is still around and it's been almost 20 years since 9/11.

I did say that the problem with a pandemic is that it goes against many American's core beliefs. For quarantine to work, you need most onboard. You aren't going to get most onboard and I explained why. I also said that we are generally OK with people risking their own lives but not others in our society and then you made the same point a couple of times.

Here's a proposal that could save us all.

We are 3 months into lock down. Why not just pass a law making masks mandatory forever? it will save lives even after Covid-19 as it will protect those with weak immune systems and it's really not that much of an inconvenience. It will also help us deal with the next Pandemic which could be an existential threat. We could put location tacking with contract tracing in the masks and that would let us know who the spreaders are and we could not only stamp out Covid but most contagious diseases. Imagine getting rid of the flu or chicken pox! The idea would be that once a person is suspected to be contagious, they are forced to shelter in place until they could be escorted to quarantine and treated until deemed safe. It's probably the best way to preserve everyone's freedom from getting sick.

willandi
06-27-2020, 08:14 PM
I'm not sure what you read but you're arguing some other post. What does taking on personal risk have to do with polluting a public river? I didn't say "my choice" to put others at risk anywhere. I never said anything about the purest, best way to live. No idea where minimum wage came from.

Disasters mean "temporary" crackdowns on freedoms? Been to an airport lately? You can't fly domestically without government approved papers. FISA court is still around and it's been almost 20 years since 9/11.

I did say that the problem with a pandemic is that it goes against many American's core beliefs. For quarantine to work, you need most onboard. You aren't going to get most onboard and I explained why. I also said that we are generally OK with people risking their own lives but not others in our society and then you made the same point a couple of times.

Here's a proposal that could save us all.

We are 3 months into lock down. Why not just pass a law making masks mandatory forever? it will save lives even after Covid-19 as it will protect those with weak immune systems and it's really not that much of an inconvenience. It will also help us deal with the next Pandemic which could be an existential threat. We could put location tacking with contract tracing in the masks and that would let us know who the spreaders are and we could not only stamp out Covid but most contagious diseases. Imagine getting rid of the flu or chicken pox! The idea would be that once a person is suspected to be contagious, they are forced to shelter in place until they could be escorted to quarantine and treated until deemed safe. It's probably the best way to preserve everyone's freedom from getting sick.

WE NEVER HAD A LOCKDOWN!

tinfoilzag
06-27-2020, 08:28 PM
WE NEVER HAD A LOCKDOWN!

You keep confusing a lock down with martial law in all of your posts. What you keep calling for is a suspension of laws with military rule; that's martial law.

willandi
06-27-2020, 09:56 PM
You keep confusing a lock down with martial law in all of your posts. What you keep calling for is a suspension of laws with military rule; that's martial law.

You keep confusing a lockdown with some states and some counties having an unenforced quarantine where people just did what they want with no repercussions.

There was no lockdown.

MDABE80
06-27-2020, 10:30 PM
Dixie, I hope you're right. From my vantage point, it's hard to see.

TexasZagFan
06-28-2020, 04:08 AM
Dixie, I hope you're right. From my vantage point, it's hard to see.

Have a question for you, Abe...if our hospitals are maxing out over Covid, then why did Baylor Health just lay off over 1000 people (one of whom is my physician)? There's a dichotomy here I seem to be missing.

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/health/baylor-scott-white-health-lay-off-1200-employees/287-fdf574be-d8d0-411e-b549-fb5652a0b2c6

Thanks for asking, but I thoroughly enjoyed my walk last night...90 degrees, very comfortable. Dozens of people were out on the trail, maybe a third were wearing masks, which IMO is worse for them health-wise, because they're recycling their CO2. My wife can't wear a mask for more than a few minutes without getting lightheaded.

bballbeachbum
06-28-2020, 05:39 AM
Have a question for you, Abe...if our hospitals are maxing out over Covid, then why did Baylor Health just lay off over 1000 people (one of whom is my physician)? There's a dichotomy here I seem to be missing.

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/health/baylor-scott-white-health-lay-off-1200-employees/287-fdf574be-d8d0-411e-b549-fb5652a0b2c6

Thanks for asking, but I thoroughly enjoyed my walk last night...90 degrees, very comfortable. Dozens of people were out on the trail, maybe a third were wearing masks, which IMO is worse for them health-wise, because they're recycling their CO2. My wife can't wear a mask for more than a few minutes without getting lightheaded.

I know you didn't ask me for my opinion, but the research I've done on this indicates our for profit health care system bears its share of responsibility


While the number of local COVID-19 cases has been lower than feared, the financial effects from the pandemic and the lockdown have been severe.

“We experienced a dramatic drop in patient volumes — between 50 and 90%, depending upon where they sought care,” Baylor CEO Jim Hinton told employees in a video message. The company’s first instinct was to protect workers, he said, so it pledged to keep paying everyone through May. But that won’t be sustained beyond the first week of June, despite an improvement in business in the past several weeks.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/health-care/2020/05/26/another-pandemic-casualty-baylor-scott-white-will-lay-off-about-1200-and-furlough-others/

caduceus
06-28-2020, 06:51 AM
Have a question for you, Abe...if our hospitals are maxing out over Covid, then why did Baylor Health just lay off over 1000 people (one of whom is my physician)? There's a dichotomy here I seem to be missing.


Ooh, ohh, me, me. I can answer this one. Not everyone in a hospital deals with infectious disease. In fact, during normal times, a very, very small percentage do. Now that hospitals are getting OVERWHELMED with sick patients that have COVID-19, the busy people are the internists and ID (infectious dz) specialists, the ER docs, geriatricians, and the intensivists. Everybody else (surgeons, endocrinologists, psychiatrists, primary care, and so on) has virtually nothing to do or patients to see. And it's mainly because this virus is so dangerous that everybody else is staying the hell home, even if they have some other illness that might necessitate hospitalization.

Couple that with the fact that governments are halting non-urgent procedures because when the hospitals are so full with patients that they're practically falling out the windows, you have no room or resources or PPD to deal with the botox people. (I jest, because there are plenty of patients that need important procedures that are "non-urgent" aka elective. But if you don't have gowns and gloves or sanitizer or treatment rooms or available nurses or N95 masks or recovery rooms because they are filled with patients on ventilators, or anesthesiologists because they are too busy intubating patients in respiratory failure....welllllll). I didn't mention the loading docks filled with refrigerated trucks when they bring out the dead. Happened in NY, and probably will elsewhere.

When it's all hands on deck, you don't worry about what's going on in the galley (I know you're Army, not Navy, but I knew you'd get it).

tinfoilzag
06-28-2020, 07:24 AM
You keep confusing a lockdown with some states and some counties having an unenforced quarantine where people just did what they want with no repercussions.

There was no lockdown.

I see where your confusion is. When you say "unenforced quarantine", who do you think would enforce a national quarantine? We don't have a federal police force. We are a collection of states with most law enforcement coming at state and county levels.

An elected sheriff is the highest law enforcer in their county and has law enforcement powers exceeding that of any other state or federal officials.

If you wanted to force everyone to follow the same mandates nationwide, you would have to suspend the authority of state and local groups which would require enforcement to come from the only source that would have the capabilities to enforce these types of mandates, which would be the military. This action is called declaring martial law, not 'lockdown'.

The US does have a general lock down and the lock down protocols are coming from the states based on federal guidelines and specific state situations. It's not uniform but that's by design as every state is different.

The solution you keep repeating in your posts is not possible under our system (9th and 10th amendment).

willandi
06-28-2020, 07:50 AM
I see where your confusion is. When you say "unenforced quarantine", who do you think would enforce a national quarantine? We don't have a federal police force. We are a collection of states with most law enforcement coming at state and county levels.

An elected sheriff is the highest law enforcer in their county and has law enforcement powers exceeding that of any other state or federal officials.

If you wanted to force everyone to follow the same mandates nationwide, you would have to suspend the authority of state and local groups which would require enforcement to come from the only source that would have the capabilities to enforce these types of mandates, which would be the military. This action is called declaring martial law, not 'lockdown'.

The US does have a general lock down and the lock down protocols are coming from the states based on federal guidelines and specific state situations. It's not uniform but that's by design as every state is different.

The solution you keep repeating in your posts is not possible under our system (9th and 10th amendment).

I beg to differ on almost every level, but you won't change my mind and I won't change yours, so I will drop it.

DZ
06-28-2020, 08:58 AM
I see where your confusion is. When you say "unenforced quarantine", who do you think would enforce a national quarantine? We don't have a federal police force. We are a collection of states with most law enforcement coming at state and county levels.

An elected sheriff is the highest law enforcer in their county and has law enforcement powers exceeding that of any other state or federal officials.

If you wanted to force everyone to follow the same mandates nationwide, you would have to suspend the authority of state and local groups which would require enforcement to come from the only source that would have the capabilities to enforce these types of mandates, which would be the military. This action is called declaring martial law, not 'lockdown'.

The US does have a general lock down and the lock down protocols are coming from the states based on federal guidelines and specific state situations. It's not uniform but that's by design as every state is different.

The solution you keep repeating in your posts is not possible under our system (9th and 10th amendment).

Look up the Supremacy clause.

The Sheriff is the highest law enforcement official in a county enforcing certain codified crimes. When it comes to enforcing federal law, federal enforcement takes priority of the sheriff's power.

Generally you are right in that the States generally care for the common welfare of the citizens.

But the Sheriff doesn't enforce FAA regulations at the airport, doesn't enforce immigration laws with respect to illegal immigration, doesn't enforce complex interstate crime under federal law done by the FBI, doesn't get in the way of the ATF, nor enforce DEA violations, or criminal pollution overseen by the EPA. If there was a declaration of a federal emergency, all law enforcement would be called upon to enforce federal law. The sheriff would serve alongside and co-equal to federal law enforcement.

TexasZagFan
06-28-2020, 09:26 AM
Ooh, ohh, me, me. I can answer this one. Not everyone in a hospital deals with infectious disease. In fact, during normal times, a very, very small percentage do. Now that hospitals are getting OVERWHELMED with sick patients that have COVID-19, the busy people are the internists and ID (infectious dz) specialists, the ER docs, geriatricians, and the intensivists. Everybody else (surgeons, endocrinologists, psychiatrists, primary care, and so on) has virtually nothing to do or patients to see. And it's mainly because this virus is so dangerous that everybody else is staying the hell home, even if they have some other illness that might necessitate hospitalization.

Couple that with the fact that governments are halting non-urgent procedures because when the hospitals are so full with patients that they're practically falling out the windows, you have no room or resources or PPD to deal with the botox people. (I jest, because there are plenty of patients that need important procedures that are "non-urgent" aka elective. But if you don't have gowns and gloves or sanitizer or treatment rooms or available nurses or N95 masks or recovery rooms because they are filled with patients on ventilators, or anesthesiologists because they are too busy intubating patients in respiratory failure....welllllll). I didn't mention the loading docks filled with refrigerated trucks when they bring out the dead. Happened in NY, and probably will elsewhere.

When it's all hands on deck, you don't worry about what's going on in the galley (I know you're Army, not Navy, but I knew you'd get it).

Thanks to you and bum for your response. But what about New York, where the hospital ship was sent home due to lack of patients? Was it mismanagement, misplaced priorities?

I've had a little bit of experience in how to keep things running when the SHTF, and the Army taught me you're a dead man if you just stand around and do nothing. You may be a dead man if you're moving around, too, you just have a better chance at survival. There's little doubt in my mind that the sheer enormity of the situation stalled the decision makers.

The economic effects of this pandemic will be felt for years to come. O/T, I'm pulling my copy of Atlas Shrugged out of my bookcase. Say what you will about Ayn Rand, but she was great at outlining eventual consequences to what were seemingly minor events.

tinfoilzag
06-28-2020, 09:41 AM
Look up the Supremacy clause.

The Sheriff is the highest law enforcement official in a county enforcing certain codified crimes. When it comes to enforcing federal law, federal enforcement takes priority of the sheriff's power.

Generally you are right in that the States generally care for the common welfare of the citizens.

But the Sheriff doesn't enforce FAA regulations at the airport, doesn't enforce immigration laws with respect to illegal immigration, doesn't enforce complex interstate crime under federal law done by the FBI, doesn't get in the way of the ATF, nor enforce DEA violations, or criminal pollution overseen by the EPA. If there was a declaration of a federal emergency, all law enforcement would be called upon to enforce federal law. The sheriff would serve alongside and co-equal to federal law enforcement.

Federal law only takes precedence when it is specifically enumerated.

I agree that they would be called upon to enforce federal law for a "temporary" period in the event of a disaster. In a "normal" disaster, they would help. But this is not a hurricane or earthquake and this is not something where resources contribute to ending the disaster. Actually stopping activity and not working closely with community members is what helps. This event does not share characteristics with other disasters.

What happens when "temporary" is defined in years? Not getting in the way of federal agencies is very different than working for and with federal agencies (ask California). You're going to ask local law enforcement to enforce federal mandates at the same time you tell them to stand down during riots? Your going to say arrest people for unauthorized behavior while you work to defund their departments?

There was a chance to stop this early but once elected officials realized the death count would be in the .5% range instead of the 5% range and that they and their families would be safe, they saw it as a political opportunity and acted accordingly. This fact is recognized by a part of the US population and now they won't work with mandates as they see it in bad faith.

For a lot of Americans, the risk of COVID is not severe enough to give up their livelihoods and liberty and this will be reflected in state and local law enforcement as they serve the local communities and not the feds. This may make some feel like these people don't care about others but the fact is that people work in their own self-interest, including politicians.

zagamatic
06-28-2020, 10:04 AM
If you have one of those conditions you mention and catch COVID-19 your likelihood of dying while having COVID-19 increases dramatically. These are people that would be alive without COVID-19 and then die when they have it.

I understand your point, but these people did NOT HAVE COVID19. And yet they are being counted as deaths from the virus.

MDABE80
06-28-2020, 10:40 AM
Ooh, ohh, me, me. I can answer this one. Not everyone in a hospital deals with infectious disease. In fact, during normal times, a very, very small percentage do. Now that hospitals are getting OVERWHELMED with sick patients that have COVID-19, the busy people are the internists and ID (infectious dz) specialists, the ER docs, geriatricians, and the intensivists. Everybody else (surgeons, endocrinologists, psychiatrists, primary care, and so on) has virtually nothing to do or patients to see. And it's mainly because this virus is so dangerous that everybody else is staying the hell home, even if they have some other illness that might necessitate hospitalization.

Couple that with the fact that governments are halting non-urgent procedures because when the hospitals are so full with patients that they're practically falling out the windows, you have no room or resources or PPD to deal with the botox people. (I jest, because there are plenty of patients that need important procedures that are "non-urgent" aka elective. But if you don't have gowns and gloves or sanitizer or treatment rooms or available nurses or N95 masks or recovery rooms because they are filled with patients on ventilators, or anesthesiologists because they are too busy intubating patients in respiratory failure....welllllll). I didn't mention the loading docks filled with refrigerated trucks when they bring out the dead. Happened in NY, and probably will elsewhere.

When it's all hands on deck, you don't worry about what's going on in the galley (I know you're Army, not Navy, but I knew you'd get it).

Only is some places Cad. Cedars Sinai is far from full........Sacred Heart in Spokane reduced us to elective procedures anticipating a huge rush of COVID afflictions. As you probably know Sacred Heart is the biggest in the State. They held us off from operating and semi surgical procedures were deemed elective. Trouble is, the overwhelming rush of COVID never happened. I don't know how things are where you are...but the media reports are oversold in many places. As it sits now, there are those areas like TX ( not the majority in TX either).....FL, etc. that are getting huge volumes of COVID types......I do believe it's a minority in the US though.

As with the graphs I posted yesterday, death rates are down but infections are up. Hard to square those two but maybe the infections will end up in hospital..

Anyway, best wishes. I do not think we will ever stop this without the standard precautions. In Spokane, there are 1.2 million people in a 60 mile radius of the downtown area. We had precations taken and the numbers were low for both death and new cases. Philadelphia Macaroni had an explosion of cases ( young folks working without distancing or masks) and then the bars opened without requiring masks and distancing plus no hand washing) and that group had and large outburst of cases. All this indicates that we still need the usual precautions or we're asking for trouble....Again , best wishes...your contributions here and on this topic are mighty;)!!!

kitzbuel
06-28-2020, 11:09 AM
I understand your point, but these people did NOT HAVE COVID19. And yet they are being counted as deaths from the virus.

Can you point me to that?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

caduceus
06-28-2020, 01:33 PM
Thanks to you and bum for your response. But what about New York, where the hospital ship was sent home due to lack of patients? Was it mismanagement, misplaced priorities?

The ship wasn't used because it was sent with the stipulation that it would take non-COVID patients only. Huge mistake. While the brick and mortar hospitals were being overrun with COVID-19, a lot of NYers that needed other care stayed home (and probably many died at home -- news reports indicate that, but we probably won't know all the data for months).

caduceus
06-28-2020, 02:20 PM
Only is some places Cad. Cedars Sinai is far from full........Sacred Heart in Spokane reduced us to elective procedures anticipating a huge rush of COVID afflictions. As you probably know Sacred Heart is the biggest in the State.

Yes, but. Cedars Sinai has shut down a ton of stuff. Ask any surgeon. Many clinical trials are halted that are not COVID related. I know that personally. These hospitals don't live in bubbles, and have people coming from other states and locales to get care, to manage trials, among many other hospital operations. Many biotech and pharm trials are at a standstill. Outpatient clinics everywhere are running on skeletal staff. I don't know about Prov/SH, but I have my concerns about Eastern Washington. Yakima is getting hammered. I've gotten reports that Leavenworth is chock full of maskless people, shoulder to shoulder on the weekends (with a lot coming from all over, particularly King County). Spokane has been largely spared, but that could change. I hope not.


As with the graphs I posted yesterday, death rates are down but infections are up. Hard to square those two but maybe the infections will end up in hospital..

I suspect it's more "younger than elderly" populations getting infected. Early demographic data seems to indicate that trend, but I haven't looked at it in depth too much. Problem is, when you get so many highly mobile people turning positive, eventually the virus gets to more vulnerable people. We're seeing double-digit outbreaks from single events (like the bar in Michigan yesterday, and house parties all over the place).


Anyway, best wishes. I do not think we will ever stop this without the standard precautions. In Spokane, there are 1.2 million people in a 60 mile radius of the downtown area. We had precations taken and the numbers were low for both death and new cases. Philadelphia Macaroni had an explosion of cases ( young folks working without distancing or masks) and then the bars opened without requiring masks and distancing plus no hand washing) and that group had and large outburst of cases. All this indicates that we still need the usual precautions or we're asking for trouble....Again , best wishes...your contributions here and on this topic are mighty;)!!!

Yep. It ain't over by a longshot. I'm encouraged by the mask mandate in WA. It's clear that it needs to be everywhere though. If we can just get Re below one and halt spread, we might be able to get a handle on individual outbreaks. Everyone needs to do their part, even if it's not collecting aluminum or rubber in a war effort.

DZ
06-28-2020, 05:13 PM
Federal law only takes precedence when it is specifically enumerated.

I agree that they would be called upon to enforce federal law for a "temporary" period in the event of a disaster. In a "normal" disaster, they would help. But this is not a hurricane or earthquake and this is not something where resources contribute to ending the disaster. Actually stopping activity and not working closely with community members is what helps. This event does not share characteristics with other disasters.

What happens when "temporary" is defined in years? Not getting in the way of federal agencies is very different than working for and with federal agencies (ask California). You're going to ask local law enforcement to enforce federal mandates at the same time you tell them to stand down during riots? Your going to say arrest people for unauthorized behavior while you work to defund their departments?

There was a chance to stop this early but once elected officials realized the death count would be in the .5% range instead of the 5% range and that they and their families would be safe, they saw it as a political opportunity and acted accordingly. This fact is recognized by a part of the US population and now they won't work with mandates as they see it in bad faith.

For a lot of Americans, the risk of COVID is not severe enough to give up their livelihoods and liberty and this will be reflected in state and local law enforcement as they serve the local communities and not the feds. This may make some feel like these people don't care about others but the fact is that people work in their own self-interest, including politicians.

You continue to come at the from a purely selfish and self-interested view. I don't understand it.

Your theory about "wanting to control people" is paranoid delusions born of myths found in certain isolated groups that have been terrified of this very thing since Clinton was president.

Who said a thing about riots? Destruction of property or hurting people is against the law and should be enforced. Many law enforcement hurt people needlessly (I have copies of the video if you need, starting in Lafayette park), but violent riots are entirely different than peaceful demonstrations, of which the vast majority were and shouldn't have been broken up. Most wore masks.

I love your argument about asking local law enforcement to enforce federal mandates. That's exactly what the Right is asking for in knuckling under sanctuary cities. All sanctuary cities or states mean is that local law enforcement is not going to help with immigration and not turn over witnesses to ICE (they will turn over criminals, always have). A sanctuary city has nothing to do with federal officials coming in and enforcing immigration law. It only means locals won't help. It is the flipside of what you're asking for with COVID.

You keep talking about you, your freedoms, citing .5% mortality (I'd like to see a link, I haven't seen that as correct) but even at .5% YOU have decided YOU want to carry on with YOUR life, without factoring in that there is enough virus out there to stuff hospital ICUs full, ask TX, AZ, FLA. So YOU and your decision leads you and others to get sick and put more pressure on the healthcare system, putting my family at risk of dying bc I have family working in intensive cares.

Again, your self-obsession with your liberty is impacting other people's safety by potentially using up resources, ventilators, staffing, etc. whether it is .5% (it's higher) or .1%, there is enough out there to overwhelm the healthcare system and risk having people die in parking lots bc you were demanding your freedom.

As for economic pain, that's real and understandable. Rather than $2 trillion going to corporate America (do you support that socialism?), more money should have gone to hourly and salaried workers, as it did in other countries to reduce the pain of being at home.

The self-obsession ignores the pain that is inflicted on others while one person demands their outright freedom. It is a balance whereby we try to accommodate as many interests as possible making reasonable decisions.

But, the assertion that pols want to control lives sounds like Alex Jones level conspiracy theory that I can assure you is delusional. I spend a lot of time inside the political bubble with a lot of pols, none want control of your life. They do want a more equitable society. None other than Adam Smith said that for capitalism to work it would take heavy regulation. We have socialism for the wealthiest corps, it is time to shift it over to where it can trickle up.

IMO.

If we do not get rid of the virus (which will take everyone sacrificing together) the economy will not come back.

MDABE80
06-28-2020, 06:56 PM
Yes, but. Cedars Sinai has shut down a ton of stuff. Ask any surgeon. Many clinical trials are halted that are not COVID related. I know that personally. These hospitals don't live in bubbles, and have people coming from other states and locales to get care, to manage trials, among many other hospital operations. Many biotech and pharm trials are at a standstill. Outpatient clinics everywhere are running on skeletal staff. I don't know about Prov/SH, but I have my concerns about Eastern Washington. Yakima is getting hammered. I've gotten reports that Leavenworth is chock full of maskless people, shoulder to shoulder on the weekends (with a lot coming from all over, particularly King County). Spokane has been largely spared, but that could change. I hope not.



I suspect it's more "younger than elderly" populations getting infected. Early demographic data seems to indicate that trend, but I haven't looked at it in depth too much. Problem is, when you get so many highly mobile people turning positive, eventually the virus gets to more vulnerable people. We're seeing double-digit outbreaks from single events (like the bar in Michigan yesterday, and house parties all over the place).



Yep. It ain't over by a longshot. I'm encouraged by the mask mandate in WA. It's clear that it needs to be everywhere though. If we can just get Re below one and halt spread, we might be able to get a handle on individual outbreaks. Everyone needs to do their part, even if it's not collecting aluminum or rubber in a war effort.

Deaths are 75% less than peak. Now is the time we really need masks and distancing. I’d close the bars where the so called invincibles spread the disease. We can beat this thing. I know we can. Tony says 250 million doses of vaccine by mid to late December. I hope so!!

DZ
06-28-2020, 11:28 PM
Deaths are 75% less than peak. Now is the time we really need masks and distancing. I’d close the bars where the so called invincibles spread the disease. We can beat this thing. I know we can. Tony says 250 million doses of vaccine by mid to late December. I hope so!!

You keep saying that Fauci has said mid-December and huge doses.

I haven't read this anywhere.

You demanded that I provide links and background to my points, I did. (You said you'd reconsider, your position if I did but haven't answered.)

We asked for the AOC tweet, you never posted it.

I have posted a quote from researchers at Duke and USC saying no possible way do we have distribution prior to the end of the year, if you have a link to that from "Tony" then can you please share it, because no one else has seen that and we'd all like to think it's possible … but don't think there's a chance bc we've not read it.

DZ
06-28-2020, 11:39 PM
Deaths are 75% less than peak. Now is the time we really need masks and distancing. I’d close the bars where the so called invincibles spread the disease. We can beat this thing. I know we can. Tony says 250 million doses of vaccine by mid to late December. I hope so!!

He hasn't said that.

Never mind, I found the real answer:

This is from six days ago (same answer he gave 2 months ago, link here: (https://www.mlive.com/coronavirus/2020/06/it-will-be-when-not-if-fauci-says-about-coronavirus-vaccine.html)


Dr. Anthony Fauci, the top infectious disease expert in the U.S. told a House committee on Tuesday he is “cautiously optimistic” a vaccine for the COVID-19 virus will be ready by the end of this year, but it could be early 2021 before the vaccine is available.
“It will be when and not if” Fauci said about the vaccine, according to the Associated Press.

Fauci’s statement came during a meeting with the House Energy and Commerce Committee in which he testified alongside the heads of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the Food and Drug Administration and a top official at the Department of Health and Human Services.

This fits precisely what I posted from the Duke team. The science may be ready by the end of the year, but ramping up to scale isn't a reasonable expectation until into next year.

It is wishful thinking to believe that we'll have anything approaching normal before spring-summer of next year, and we need to stick with reality bc wishful thinking is what has kept us last in the world.

RenoZag
06-29-2020, 06:12 AM
After reading through this thread, I voted for the "zero chance" option in the poll.

Thanks for the observations, analysis, and links.

Have a good week.

LTownZag
06-29-2020, 07:57 AM
I understand your point, but these people did NOT HAVE COVID19. And yet they are being counted as deaths from the virus.

How many of “these people” (absolute numbers or as a percent of the current ~130k) do you contend did not have COVID at time of death?

Make your claim explicit or its mood lighting, not a hypothesis.

caduceus
06-29-2020, 08:52 AM
Thanks to you and bum for your response. But what about New York, where the hospital ship was sent home due to lack of patients? Was it mismanagement, misplaced priorities?

I've had a little bit of experience in how to keep things running when the SHTF, and the Army taught me you're a dead man if you just stand around and do nothing. You may be a dead man if you're moving around, too, you just have a better chance at survival. There's little doubt in my mind that the sheer enormity of the situation stalled the decision makers.

The economic effects of this pandemic will be felt for years to come. O/T, I'm pulling my copy of Atlas Shrugged out of my bookcase. Say what you will about Ayn Rand, but she was great at outlining eventual consequences to what were seemingly minor events.

I spent a good couple of years working in GU's ROTC office in the AD building (a secret few know). A captain and a major I had to answer to. I very much know I earned their respect, even with my unregulated haircut, and I at least have a minor sense of how things work. End of the year, they came to my Desmet dorm room to THANK ME FOR MY SERVICE. I was in tears. If you're pulling out that book in these times of trouble (I read it too), I can't help you. You don't kill the border collie in the name of the sheep, Babe. We need to collectively work together to defeat this problem. Ayn Rand's notions are precisely the opposite.

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/88/88dd024b7f3e953f0902ab8fc06680ce49f59f6ada23992925 1f27b7cf5d7d37.jpg

3zagda
06-29-2020, 12:03 PM
Is Spokane one of Washington's new hotspots? This from KXLY today: Spokane County sees highest 24-hour rise with 79 new COVID-19 cases.
https://www.kxly.com/spokane-county-sees-highest-24-hour-increase-with-79-new-covid-19-cases/
"During a visit last week, Governor Jay Inslee said Spokane County is on the verge of a dire situation if people do not begin to take precautions to stop the spread of the virus."
This does not bode well for having a "normal" fall semester.

MDABE80
06-29-2020, 12:22 PM
1. Dixie....I forgot. Not watching the board much. Too busy.
2. KXLY data is "exciting". lol People don't wear masks, don't observe distancing. etc and then go to bars where NO precautions are taken by staff OR when Philadephia Macaroni.......doesn't either but pumps out 57 people with positive test.is a reason.

And then comes the spread from those same people. It's hopeless without people being sensing. Masks, distance, washing hands. It's a simple remedy.

DO IT!

Bouldin4Prez
06-29-2020, 12:29 PM
1. Dixie....I forgot. Not watching the board much. Too busy.
2. KXLY data is "exciting". lol People don't wear masks, don't observe distancing. etc and then go to bars where NO precautions are taken by staff OR when Philadephia Macaroni.......doesn't either but pumps out 57 people with positive test.is a reason.

And then comes the spread from those same people. It's hopeless without people being sensing. Masks, distance, washing hands. It's a simple remedy.

DO IT!

You didn't forget. You can't post the tweet because it literally doesn't exist. It's wild how you can't admit that you're wrong. Being a doctor, I would assume you should be very accepting to being wrong as it could literally save lives. However, after reading your posts the last three months, I'm not so sure you are capable of such a thing.

LTownZag
06-29-2020, 02:26 PM
You didn't forget. You can't post the tweet because it literally doesn't exist. It's wild how you can't admit that you're wrong. Being a doctor, I would assume you should be very accepting to being wrong as it could literally save lives. However, after reading your posts the last three months, I'm not so sure you are capable of such a thing.

He could have also named the charity for the $30 donation I promised if he simply did the honest and upright thing, the kind of thing we’d all hope our kids learn to do in kindergarten.

MDABE80
06-29-2020, 02:52 PM
You didn't forget. You can't post the tweet because it literally doesn't exist. It's wild how you can't admit that you're wrong. Being a doctor, I would assume you should be very accepting to being wrong as it could literally save lives. However, after reading your posts the last three months, I'm not so sure you are capable of such a thing.

Here goes Bouldin...fact checked by Reuters. The quotes from Reuters are in quotes. Somebody used her name to quote what you're seeing below. As for you other comments. screw you. Everything I've posted was true and correct at the time it was posted. You don't like my style? Screw you again. You always have the option to block/ignore my comments. If you're ignorant of the science, screw you again. Have a nice day;) Like you matter??

The posts purport that Ocasio-Cortez deleted a tweet from May 20, 2020 which said, “It’s vital that Governors maintain restrictions on businesses until after the November Elections because economic recovery will help Trump be re-elected. A few business closures or job losses is a small price to pay to be free from his presidency. #KeepUsClosed"


Fact checked by Reuters.." And again, I've wasted time on a know nothing.

kitzbuel
06-29-2020, 02:59 PM
Here goes Bouldin...fact checked by Reuters. The quotes from Reuters are in quotes. Somebody used her name to quote what you're seeing below. As for you other comments. screw you. Everything I've posted was true and correct at the time it was posted. You don't like my style? Screw you again. You always have the option to block/ignore my comments. If you're ignorant of the science, screw you again. Have a nice day;) Like you matter??

The posts purport that Ocasio-Cortez deleted a tweet from May 20, 2020 which said, “It’s vital that Governors maintain restrictions on businesses until after the November Elections because economic recovery will help Trump be re-elected. A few business closures or job losses is a small price to pay to be free from his presidency. #KeepUsClosed"


Fact checked by Reuters.." And again, I've wasted time on a know nothing.

Link?!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Bouldin4Prez
06-29-2020, 03:05 PM
Here goes Bouldin...fact checked by Reuters. The quotes from Reuters are in quotes. Somebody used her name to quote what you're seeing below. As for you other comments. screw you. Everything I've posted was true and correct at the time it was posted. You don't like my style? Screw you again. You always have the option to block/ignore my comments. If you're ignorant of the science, screw you again. Have a nice day;) Like you matter??

The posts purport that Ocasio-Cortez deleted a tweet from May 20, 2020 which said, “It’s vital that Governors maintain restrictions on businesses until after the November Elections because economic recovery will help Trump be re-elected. A few business closures or job losses is a small price to pay to be free from his presidency. #KeepUsClosed"


Fact checked by Reuters.." And again, I've wasted time on a know nothing.

These articles took me maybe 30 seconds to find? The fact that you just doubled down on this is alarming. Take a deep breath and go for a walk, safely distanced from other people of course.


https://apnews.com/afs:Content:9035601885

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/aoc-businesses-closed-tweet/

https://factcheck.thedispatch.com/p/did-aoc-tweet-about-wanting-to-keep

sonuvazag
06-29-2020, 03:09 PM
Here goes Bouldin...fact checked by Reuters. The quotes from Reuters are in quotes. Somebody used her name to quote what you're seeing below. As for you other comments. screw you. Everything I've posted was true and correct at the time it was posted. You don't like my style? Screw you again. You always have the option to block/ignore my comments. If you're ignorant of the science, screw you again. Have a nice day;) Like you matter??

The posts purport that Ocasio-Cortez deleted a tweet from May 20, 2020 which said, “It’s vital that Governors maintain restrictions on businesses until after the November Elections because economic recovery will help Trump be re-elected. A few business closures or job losses is a small price to pay to be free from his presidency. #KeepUsClosed"


Fact checked by Reuters.." And again, I've wasted time on a know nothing.

Actual Reuters fact check says the tweet never happened:
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-aoc-tweet/fact-check-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-did-not-tweet-that-governors-should-keep-businesses-closed-to-prevent-trumps-re-election-idUSKBN23V32A

MDABE80
06-29-2020, 03:14 PM
These articles took me maybe 30 seconds to find? The fact that you just doubled down on this is alarming. Take a deep breath and go for a walk, safely distanced from other people of course.


https://apnews.com/afs:Content:9035601885

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/aoc-businesses-closed-tweet/

https://factcheck.thedispatch.com/p/did-aoc-tweet-about-wanting-to-keep
I don't need your quotes. I posted the quote you said I didn't have and wasn't there. Grow up dude. I have a job, I don't need a walk. Im doing well. You, should apologize top me. NOW.

MDABE80
06-29-2020, 03:19 PM
Actual Reuters fact check says the tweet never happened:
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-aoc-tweet/fact-check-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-did-not-tweet-that-governors-should-keep-businesses-closed-to-prevent-trumps-re-election-idUSKBN23V32A

It was withdrawn because it was a made up quote. I read it. Likewise it was shared with 20000 others. It appeared but (you might be missing the point) it was posted and that it was posted is beyond dispute. BUT IT WAS SOMEBODY ELSE who did the dirty deed. That's all it was. So it was taken down. No hard feelings.

Bouldin4Prez
06-29-2020, 03:26 PM
I don't need your quotes. I posted the quote you said I didn't have and wasn't there. Grow up dude. I have a job, I don't need a walk. Im doing well. You, should apologize top me. NOW.

I'm so impressed by the mental gymnastics you were able to just pull off that I will apologize to you. I'm sorry for attacking your credibility/ability to reason Abe, carry on with your day. Wish you well.

MDABE80
06-29-2020, 03:59 PM
lol Accepted Bouldin..we're mostly friends here. It's always a problem understanding what's in another person's head. My Aunt Margaret in Hillyard was teaching do running the library out there always told me you must be crystal clear when you write things...other people's experience in life may not be yours so people inpute ideas when the guy being criticized had very innocent meanings. Thus, this is where we find ourselves on this board.at least sometimes. No worries.
We soldier on in life.
Best wishes.
Abe

LTownZag
06-29-2020, 08:48 PM
Everything I've posted was true and correct at the time it was posted. You don't like my style? Screw you again. You always have the option to block/ignore my comments. If you're ignorant of the science, screw you again.

It has been almost scary to see how many and how varied your untrue / incorrect claims have been. Many errors on things unrelated to pure politics or ideology. A few from recent weeks:

- you claimed the average annual deaths from flu were higher than the all-time highest death year from flu. (Average is ~36,000, not 60-80,000)

- you claimed Spokane has the highest “patient flow” of any place in the 13 western states. (It doesn’t. )

- you claimed Sacred Heart is WA’s largest hospital (Swedish has more beds, staff, procedures, and income)

- you claimed Germany’s population skews younger than Italy’s (it doesn’t)

- you claimed Germany had the lowest covid death rate, with the USA second (they aren’t close to that)

- you claimed Germany’s disease outcome was due to the foresight of its unusually early border closures (those closed concurrent or after many other EU nations)

- you claimed 27,000 people live on every city block of Manhattan, but that number is every square kilometer, which is each composed of 64 city blocks.

- you claimed this was a minor variant of the flu

- you claimed 25-50% of official covid deaths were people who never had covid (not merely those who went untested)

- you claimed Ocasio-Cortes wrote some crazy conspiracy fodder tweet, then repeated the lie 2 more times while insulting those who asked for evidence

- you claimed Fauci says we’ll have hundred million plus vaccines out by mid December (he didn’t)

- you claimed Brix said half of all positive test results are false positives (she didn't, they aren’t)

- you claim you’ve never made a false claim. ( you have made a few)

willandi
06-29-2020, 09:02 PM
It has been almost scary to see how many and how varied your untrue / incorrect claims have been. A few from recent weeks:

- you claimed the average annual deaths from flu were higher than the all-time highest death year from flu.

- you claimed Spokane has the highest “patient flow” of any place in the 15 western states. It doesn’t.

- you claimed Sacred Heart is WA’s largest hospital (Swedish has more beds, staff, procedures, and income)

- you claimed Germany’s population skews younger than Italy’s (it doesn’t)

- you claimed Germany had the lowest covid death rate, with the USA second (they aren’t)

- you claimed Germany’s disease outcome was due to the foresight of its unusually early border closures (those were after many other EU nations)

- you claimed 27,000 people live on every city block of Manhattan, but that number is every square kilometer, which is each composed of 64 city blocks.

- you claimed this was a minor variant of the flu

- you claimed 25-50% of official covid deaths were people who never had covid (not merely went untested)

- you claimed Ocasio-Cortes wrote some crazy conspiracy fodder tweet, then repeated the lie 2 more times

- you claimed Fauci says we’ll have hundred million plus vaccines out by mid December (he didn’t)

- you claimed Brix said half of all positive test results are false positives (she didnt, they aren’t)

- you claim you’ve never made a false claim. ( you did)

This could all be true, but none helps the narrative, and could help close the thread.

Opinions and links are more than welcome. Let them speak for themselves, the rest of us will figure things out.

MDABE80
06-29-2020, 09:05 PM
Grow up LTown. Everything you wrote is worthless. Everything I said may not agree with your narrative but what I e written was spot on when I wrote it. You argued with everything I wrote from day 1 . You have no background i this but you spout relentlessly.
You’re smooth in your responses but over half the time your incompetence shows . I don’t really give a cht what you think. I rarely respond to you and you are on ignore. I don’t spend time of fools.
To be clear though, everything I e said was correct when I said it. Tony Fauci told me he thought he would have over 200 million doses by years end. If he misses that goal , that’s the way it goes.

willandi
06-29-2020, 09:07 PM
This could all be true, but none helps the narrative, and could help close the thread.

Opinions and links are more than welcome. Let them speak for themselves, the rest of us will figure things out.


Grow up LTown. Everything you wrote is worthless. Everything I said may not agree with your narrative but what I e written was spot on when I wrote it. You argued with everything I wrote from day 1 . You have no background i this but you spout relentlessly.
You’re smooth in your responses but over half the time your incompetence shows . I don’t really give a cht what you think. I rarely respond to you and you are on ignore. I don’t spend time of fools.
To be clear though, everything I e said was correct when I said it. Tony Fauci told me he thought he would have over 200 million doses by years end. If he misses that goal , that’s the way it goes.

You too, Doc. Let's just post relevant without putting others down...please.