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zagfan24
06-03-2020, 02:10 PM
These are difficult times, for almost everyone. From COVID-19 to racial disparities to political turmoil, 2020 has not exactly been a highlight. I know this is not the defunct OCC, so I want to try and stay away consciously from anything political or needlessly controversial. Mods, feel free to delete or move if you wish. I'm a white male in his mid 30's and so I'm really not the right person to write about this topic, but I found the lack of a thread notable in its omission, even on a basketball forum, given the events of the past week. So, just a few thoughts that I would like to share, trying my best to generally stick to the forum topic of Gonzaga Men's Basketball.

Sports are often viewed as a true meritocracy. At times, this might be true. At many other times, there clearly remain stereotypes and systemic issues that still infiltrate sports at all levels. Sports also inevitably exist within the framework of a society, including both the cultural norms of each region (see: college football in the south) and the zeitgeist of each era. So, as much as many like to see sports as a distraction from "real world issues," this is really not the case for most athletes nor is it really true for most fans. You may choose to watch sports and tune out the seemingly external but intertwined factors that impact every level of competition...but in my opinion it is worth acknowledging that not all are able to do so.

When I was a Gonzaga student, I distinctly remember hearing a man in Safeway standing in line in front of me refer to a certain player as a “thug." I wasn’t friends with said player, but I knew him well enough to know that nothing could have been further from the truth and it was eye-opening to me to realize how easily racial issues seep into things as seemingly innocuous as player evaluations. We often heard players labeled as “athletic” or “hard-nosed” based almost solely on racial stereotypes. We see comparisons to other players made based almost solely on appearance. Sports are a great way to find unity but they are just as prone to bias, prejudice, and discrimination as any other institution.

That said, I believe that the Gonzaga men’s basketball team is a beautiful microcosm of what multiculturalism can look like at its best. The staff has brought in players from many cultures and backgrounds and integrated these young men into a successful team each and every year while also (at least from my outsider perspective) allowing individual player styles, beliefs, and values. Embracing diversity doesn't mean covering up differences, and sharing a uniform doesn't mean sharing life experiences or beliefs. Much like in life, college basketball includes both individual and collective goals, and the reality is that both must be acknowledged and advanced. It seems like, as a fan, that the Zags are able to strike this balance quite well.

In addition, we have been fortunate to have so many young men choose to come to Spokane, which is admittedly not a city of extensive diversity. I could discuss in much more detail some of the sociological research about these types of moves, suffice to say it is not always easy or comfortable to go to a place where your racial or cultural background is minimally represented. It is assuredly a testament to the University, the coaches and staff, and the “program” as a whole; but even more so it’s worth being appreciative of the players and their families for their willingness to place their trust in the team and the community. It is often noted how much this transition can be a major one for international players, but for a 17-year-old black teen to commit to a college where 71% of students and 85% of faculty are white takes genuine courage. I hope that Gonzaga has been and will continue to be a safe and welcoming home for all who have done so.

jazzdelmar
06-03-2020, 02:22 PM
Though it’s admittedly from 35,000 feet, my view is staunchly that Gonzaga’s multicultural history is nonpareil in the CBB game. It’s Few’s greatest achievement bar none and if it’s not, it should be the envy of every college president and AD throughout the country. Magnificent.




These are difficult times, for almost everyone. From COVID-19 to racial disparities to political turmoil, 2020 has not exactly been a highlight. I know this is not the defunct OCC, so I want to try and stay away consciously from anything political or needlessly controversial. Mods, feel free to delete or move if you wish. I'm a white male in his mid 30's and so I'm really not the right person to write about this topic, but I found the lack of a thread notable in its omission, even on a basketball forum, given the events of the past week. So, just a few thoughts that I would like to share, trying my best to generally stick to the forum topic of Gonzaga Men's Basketball.

Sports are often viewed as a true meritocracy. At times, this might be true. At many other times, there clearly remain stereotypes and systemic issues that still infiltrate sports at all levels. Sports also inevitably exist within the framework of a society, including both the cultural norms of each region (see: college football in the south) and the zeitgeist of each era. So, as much as many like to see sports as a distraction from "real world issues," this is really not the case for most athletes nor is it really true for most fans. You may choose to watch sports and tune out the seemingly external but intertwined factors that impact every level of competition...but in my opinion it is worth acknowledging that not all are able to do so.

When I was a Gonzaga student, I distinctly remember hearing a man in Safeway standing in line in front of me refer to a certain player as a “thug." I wasn’t friends with said player, but I knew him well enough to know that nothing could have been further from the truth and it was eye-opening to me to realize how easily racial issues seep into things as seemingly innocuous as player evaluations. We often heard players labeled as “athletic” or “hard-nosed” based almost solely on racial stereotypes. We see comparisons to other players made based almost solely on appearance. Sports are a great way to find unity but they are just as prone to bias, prejudice, and discrimination as any other institution.

That said, I believe that the Gonzaga men’s basketball team is a beautiful microcosm of what multiculturalism can look like at its best. The staff has brought in players from many cultures and backgrounds and integrated these young men into a successful team each and every year while also (at least from my outsider perspective) allowing individual player styles, beliefs, and values. Embracing diversity doesn't mean covering up differences, and sharing a uniform doesn't mean sharing life experiences or beliefs. Much like in life, college basketball includes both individual and collective goals, and the reality is that both must be acknowledged and advanced. It seems like, as a fan, that the Zags are able to strike this balance quite well.

In addition, we have been fortunate to have so many young men choose to come to Spokane, which is admittedly not a city of extensive diversity. I could discuss in much more detail some of the sociological research about these types of moves, suffice to say it is not always easy or comfortable to go to a place where your racial or cultural background is minimally represented. It is assuredly a testament to the University, the coaches and staff, and the “program” as a whole; but even more so it’s worth being appreciative of the players and their families for their willingness to place their trust in the team and the community. It is often noted how much this transition can be a major one for international players, but for a 17-year-old black teen to commit to a college where 71% of students and 85% of faculty are white takes genuine courage. I hope that Gonzaga has been and will continue to be a safe and welcoming home for all who have done so.

ZagNative
06-03-2020, 02:38 PM
Wow, Zagfan24. That's a nice piece of writing. Thanks.

zagporvida
06-03-2020, 02:49 PM
Zagfan24 I truly appreciate this and thank you for your thoughts. I will refrain from posting some of the things that I saw as a student as it was more than a few years ago now, as much as I would like to say much has changed, I am sure much has not. Thank you again.

zagdontzig
06-03-2020, 03:12 PM
That was a thoughtful post. Thank you.

I am not black, but as the first of my family born in the US who came from Iran, I am darker than many. After two years living in Spokane, the only racism I experienced was someone told me to "park like a white man." In his defense, I was driving a 3/4 Cummins with a hitch poking its head into the drive. I thought I made out pretty well being so close to the Idaho panhandle. That said, I don't have the benefit of seeing life in Spokane, or anywhere in the US through the lens of a black person, or another immediately-obvious minority. It can be hard to remember to color our opinion with only our own experiences, and zagfan24 got a brief window into another life, much less living that life everyday. Without telling people what to believe, I think the OP did a good job encouraging us to form our beliefs using a real crack at empathy.

TexasZagFan
06-03-2020, 03:49 PM
I'm really having trouble biting my tongue over the lip service that is essentially excusing the rioting and looting that is occurring. Those cops whose dereliction of duty cost George his life should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. I'm fine with the protesting, as long as it remains peaceful. You lose me when lawyers in NY start throwing firebombs into police cars, or when a 190 unit affordable housing project is burned to the ground in Minneapolis.

For 72 years now, the United States Military has been desegregated, and is the best example of what our country should aspire to when it comes to race relations. From the minute I went on active duty, I was a minority. At that time Air Defense Artillery was about 1/3 white, 1/3 black, and 1/3 Hispanic. My best Group Commander was a black man, Johnie Forte Jr., who would achieve the rank of Brigadier General. That man stood up for me when my white Battery Commander and white Battalion Commander were trying to screw me over.

I served with black NCOs and enlisted men, and we were a team. One of my favorite positions was as a Vulcan Platoon Leader. My platoon sergeant was black, and 3 of my 4 squad leaders were AJ's, "acting jacks", E4s in E6 slots. We came together, and were the only platoon (of 4) to pass a battery level tactical evaluation.

As a Battery Commander at Fort Bliss, my First Sergeant and Training NCO were black, and our 300 man battery was racially diverse. I'll never forget the day my 1st Sergeant said "there's times I'm scared of you." LOL, this guy was Sergeant Rock! He told me when I was angry, my eyes looked like a rattlesnake's just before it strikes.

I am extremely disappointed in the lack of leadership and courage displayed by the Governor of Minnesota. The man served in the Minnesota Guard for 24 years, and reached the rank of Sergeant Major. In the first few days of "protesting", he didn't raise a finger when a Minneapolis police station was destroyed by rioters.

I'm all for teaching American history, warts and all. We have plenty of black marks, from slavery to broken treaties with Native Americans, to putting citizens of Japanese descent into concentration camps during WWII. Along the way, Americans of all colors, creeds, and faiths have come together to perform great deeds throughout the world. For all of our faults, no country has done more to right its wrongs than the United States.

Rant off.

Zag1203
06-03-2020, 04:21 PM
I'm really having trouble biting my tongue over the lip service that is essentially excusing the rioting and looting that is occurring. Those cops whose dereliction of duty cost George his life should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. I'm fine with the protesting, as long as it remains peaceful. You lose me when lawyers in NY start throwing firebombs into police cars, or when a 190 unit affordable housing project is burned to the ground in Minneapolis.

For 72 years now, the United States Military has been desegregated, and is the best example of what our country should aspire to when it comes to race relations. From the minute I went on active duty, I was a minority. At that time Air Defense Artillery was about 1/3 white, 1/3 black, and 1/3 Hispanic. My best Group Commander was a black man, Johnie Forte Jr., who would achieve the rank of Brigadier General. That man stood up for me when my white Battery Commander and white Battalion Commander were trying to screw me over.

I served with black NCOs and enlisted men, and we were a team. One of my favorite positions was as a Vulcan Platoon Leader. My platoon sergeant was black, and 3 of my 4 squad leaders were AJ's, "acting jacks", E4s in E6 slots. We came together, and were the only platoon (of 4) to pass a battery level tactical evaluation.

As a Battery Commander at Fort Bliss, my First Sergeant and Training NCO were black, and our 300 man battery was racially diverse. I'll never forget the day my 1st Sergeant said "there's times I'm scared of you." LOL, this guy was Sergeant Rock! He told me when I was angry, my eyes looked like a rattlesnake's just before it strikes.

I am extremely disappointed in the lack of leadership and courage displayed by the Governor of Minnesota. The man served in the Minnesota Guard for 24 years, and reached the rank of Sergeant Major. In the first few days of "protesting", he didn't raise a finger when a Minneapolis police station was destroyed by rioters.

I'm all for teaching American history, warts and all. We have plenty of black marks, from slavery to broken treaties with Native Americans, to putting citizens of Japanese descent into concentration camps during WWII. Along the way, Americans of all colors, creeds, and faiths have come together to perform great deeds throughout the world. For all of our faults, no country has done more to right its wrongs than the United States.

Rant off.

Thank you for sharing your experience. I know that none of us want to see our communities destroyed or deteriorated. The sad reality is that there are some people who only want to agitate others through looting and property damage. This is unfortunate and should be condemned, but we should not let it taint our view of this entire movement. The vast majority of the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people who protested yesterday in all 50 states did so peacefully. People are genuinely upset and want change through peaceful methods because they are hurt themselves or they empathize with the pain of others. As you beautifully pointed out in your example with the armed forces, people of all races can coexist peacefully and without bigotry. We know that it is possible, so the world wants to see it in action. There are a small groups that agitate because they want to see the world divided, but this movement is philosophically about bringing people together because we are stronger that way.

TexasZagFan
06-03-2020, 04:29 PM
Thank you for sharing your experience. I know that none of us want to see our communities destroyed or deteriorated. The sad reality is that there are some people who only want to agitate others through looting and property damage. This is unfortunate and should be condemned, but we should not let it taint our view of this entire movement. The vast majority of the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people who protested yesterday in all 50 states did so peacefully. People are genuinely upset and want change through peaceful methods because they are hurt themselves or they empathize with the pain of others. As you beautifully pointed out in your example with the armed forces, people of all races can coexist peacefully and without bigotry. We know that it is possible, so the world wants to see it in action. There are a small groups that agitate because they want to see the world divided, but this movement is philosophically about bringing people together because we are stronger that way.

Thanks...the old man who shouts "get off my lawn" is strong with me too often. I never realized that retirement could be so difficult, searching for purpose, after 30+ years of raising kids, and working in different jobs, some good, some bad. Looking back on it, I can't honestly say that my civilian years were more rewarding than my military service, though I did have a few jobs that came close. My current role, and most important, is being Big D's Opa, with a granddaughter arriving in a few weeks. The highlight of my day today was Big D sending me a couple of really cute Imessages. Nice to know he's thinking of me.

Ok, now get off my lawn! :lmao:

sittingon50
06-03-2020, 04:36 PM
Just catching up. Haven't seen this elsewhere & think it may fit here. Meehan interviewing Sam Dower. Please read.


https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2020/jun/02/former-gonzaga-forward-sam-dower-jr-joins-hometown/


Thanks 24.

TexasZagFan
06-03-2020, 05:19 PM
Just catching up. Haven't seen this elsewhere & think it may fit here. Meehan interviewing Sam Dower. Please read.


https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2020/jun/02/former-gonzaga-forward-sam-dower-jr-joins-hometown/


Thanks 24.

Sam was a great Zag, stories like these are heart breaking.

MickMick
06-03-2020, 08:29 PM
I'm really having trouble biting my tongue over the lip service that is essentially excusing the murder of unarmed black males while in police custody. It takes days to get arrests of these uniformed bullies and typically only after hell has been raised on the street.

If you are freaking out over rioting, then perhaps you should start freaking out over the blatant injustice that starts it. For those young black males that feel like they are living a "Groundhog day" in Hell, perhaps they believe the only remaining action left in their political arsenal is to implement an agenda called "No justice, no peace"

I'm not an anarchist. I don't condone looting and destruction. I do believe, however, if one is more inclined to complain about looting than the institutionalized murder that sparked it, then it is rather revealing that for such individuals, no long term solution can even be conceived. And it is rather simple solution indeed. Just recruit the type of people into law enforcement that don't get their kicks from using excessive force against unarmed, handcuffed black men. The first time it happens for any given individual, it should raise red flags requiring immediate intervention and not be cumulatively hidden away in non transparent reports.

What should be setting off alarm bells is that this police culture can only be fixed with internal peer pressure and that peer pressure isn't happening at a level to rectify the issue. Result? There are wide swaths of young folks that sincerely believe that "All Cops are Bad". The last thing that the "law and order" crowd needs is for the next generation to believes this. That is unless you embrace a totalitarian state and believe police repression is a viable policy.

Edited for additional comment:

For those that believe this "ACAB" issue is a fleeting issue that will quickly dissipate when the protests eventually fade, consider this: Historically, jurors have been very lenient on police officers in court. Especially if the City infrastructure and Police Department intervene on that officer's behalf. The ACAB folks will probably be considered hostile jurors by the attorneys for the officer's defense. In other words, the risk for unfriendly jurors goes way up with the ACAB issue.

willandi
06-03-2020, 08:45 PM
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/101202446_2848908731902741_1165825708077875200_n.j pg?_nc_cat=1&_nc_sid=110474&_nc_ohc=gIoqgkMFb7QAX_VN61A&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=e85e6a0039af7b5a7dc058697b84d665&oe=5EFE1459

“Stole the this concept from someone else, but I’ll tweak it and put my 2 cents on top of it....

You see Billy badass Marine right here? With his big ass dip in his lip, 50lbs of bull#### on, a rifle, and a face that screams “I’m tired, I’m dirty, and I’m over this ####”?

Why is it this plowhorse of a Marine can detain someone in a combat zone without beating him, or killing him?
Why is it that this pissed off, overworked, sleep deprived, likely stressed and hungry grunt can detain someone due course of a war, and not mistreat, abuse, maim, wound, or kill them?
I’ll tell you why.
Accountability.

How many stories have you heard of a soldier or Marine sent to prison for shooting the wrong person in a combat zone?
Why is it that every time a soldier or Marine discharges their weapon in a COMBAT ZONE a 15-6 investigation is launched, sworn statements are written and reviewed, and that soldier or Marines entire future is on the line?
Every Combat Soldier, and Marine, knows that if they don’t do the right thing (and sometimes even if they do) they’re facing hefty repercussions.

On the flip side of that, how many times has a police officer drew their weapon on someone for no reason? Because they’re scared? With zero consequence?
How many times has a police officer shot and killed someone when it was wholly unnecessary and could have been avoided?
And how many times have those things been swept under the rug, brushed aside, covered up, and nothing happened?

WHY do we have soldiers and marines, overseas, in combat zones, shackled with overly strict ROE and expected to use discretion and act as police? Soldiers and Marines who have spent their time and efforts training learning how to KILL.....
And then we hammer their ass when they do?
Yet, we have police officers and deputies here in the US, who have spent their time and efforts learning how to avoid killing, how to diffuse situations, and how to detain people...
That seem to think they’re soldiers instead of police...
And every time they KILL someone, excuses are made and punishments are avoided???

Can anyone answer that question for me?
And don’t come at me with “it’s a stressful job being a cop, you don’t understand”
You know what’s more stressful than being a cop?
Being a 19yr old kid, in a country you were sent to, with people actively trying to kill you, and having to second guess and stress and worry about shooting back and going to prison.

Something about all of this is terribly terribly wrong.
We expect our military members to act like police... Yet we make excuses for and cover for our police acting like they’re soldiers in an occupying army in a foreign country, here at home.”

This is a situation that has been building since the Blacks were 'emancipated'. Perhaps one of the worst atrocities perpetrated was this. The Tulsa massacre. Burning down blocks of Black business and housing, killing many, because after a Black elevator operator was arrested for allegedly assaulting a white woman, the police engaged a lynch mob, killing several of those ready to lynch the man.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_massacre?fbclid=IwAR3iHJeVC-log0Ky4jpboOGqhBPV2UPlG434YR9ELww7c3GGicMz_uKw8dg

A much more recent event is a perversion to a law from the 1870's, designed to allow people of all color to sue LEO that went overboard. It has been changed in the last 20-30 years, so even getting them into a court room has proved almost impossible.
https://theappeal.org/qualified-immunity-explained/?fbclid=IwAR1m53xRzUptVUCcOPt9o0JfBSp9pNkXFQ7icDi0 etrGZvrL0DVfb2SYlL0#.XtB1KhOylCk.facebook

ZagDad84
06-03-2020, 08:46 PM
I'm really having trouble biting my tongue over the lip service that is essentially excusing the rioting and looting that is occurring. Those cops whose dereliction of duty cost George his life should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. I'm fine with the protesting, as long as it remains peaceful. You lose me when lawyers in NY start throwing firebombs into police cars, or when a 190 unit affordable housing project is burned to the ground in Minneapolis.

For 72 years now, the United States Military has been desegregated, and is the best example of what our country should aspire to when it comes to race relations. From the minute I went on active duty, I was a minority. At that time Air Defense Artillery was about 1/3 white, 1/3 black, and 1/3 Hispanic. My best Group Commander was a black man, Johnie Forte Jr., who would achieve the rank of Brigadier General. That man stood up for me when my white Battery Commander and white Battalion Commander were trying to screw me over.

I served with black NCOs and enlisted men, and we were a team. One of my favorite positions was as a Vulcan Platoon Leader. My platoon sergeant was black, and 3 of my 4 squad leaders were AJ's, "acting jacks", E4s in E6 slots. We came together, and were the only platoon (of 4) to pass a battery level tactical evaluation.

As a Battery Commander at Fort Bliss, my First Sergeant and Training NCO were black, and our 300 man battery was racially diverse. I'll never forget the day my 1st Sergeant said "there's times I'm scared of you." LOL, this guy was Sergeant Rock! He told me when I was angry, my eyes looked like a rattlesnake's just before it strikes.

I am extremely disappointed in the lack of leadership and courage displayed by the Governor of Minnesota. The man served in the Minnesota Guard for 24 years, and reached the rank of Sergeant Major. In the first few days of "protesting", he didn't raise a finger when a Minneapolis police station was destroyed by rioters.

I'm all for teaching American history, warts and all. We have plenty of black marks, from slavery to broken treaties with Native Americans, to putting citizens of Japanese descent into concentration camps during WWII. Along the way, Americans of all colors, creeds, and faiths have come together to perform great deeds throughout the world. For all of our faults, no country has done more to right its wrongs than the United States.

Rant off.

Thanks TexasZagFan.

Here in Spokane as in most of the protests around the country, the vast majority of protestors are peaceful protestors and it is just a very small percentage of agitators who insist on trying to incite the riots, vandalize and loot.

Please keep in mind that when evaluating the police force. The percentage of officers who are murders, bad apples, power hungry thugs is a small percentage of the overall police force. Do not paint the entire police force nationwide over the actions of a relatively small percentage. The police officers have a very difficult job to do with an increasing defiant population. Try not to paint the entire profession with that wide paint brush because of the actions of a few.

We are no where we need to be, but just this week, the murder and his 3 henchman have been arrested and charged (in less than a week - sorry if that is not fast enough for some) and the murder's initial charge was upgraded. When the Louisville police did not turn on their body camera's the police chief was fired within a couple of days. We are dragging the police departments, police unions, prosecutor's office and our cities into the 21st century, slowly and certainly not fast enough, but there is movement.

Let's not get distracted by the noise around us. Focus on the task and do not get deterred from our mutual goals.

ZagDad

willandi
06-03-2020, 09:03 PM
Thanks TexasZagFan.

Here in Spokane as in most of the protests around the country, the vast majority of protestors are peaceful protestors and it is just a very small percentage of agitators who insist on trying to incite the riots, vandalize and loot.

Please keep in mind that when evaluating the police force. The percentage of officers who are murders, bad apples, power hungry thugs is a small percentage of the overall police force. Do not paint the entire police force nationwide over the actions of a relatively small percentage. The police officers have a very difficult job to do with an increasing defiant population. Try not to paint the entire profession with that wide paint brush because of the actions of a few.

We are no where we need to be, but just this week, the murder and his 3 henchman have been arrested and charged (in less than a week - sorry if that is not fast enough for some) and the murder's initial charge was upgraded. When the Louisville police did not turn on their body camera's the police chief was fired within a couple of days. We are dragging the police departments, police unions, prosecutor's office and our cities into the 21st century, slowly and certainly not fast enough, but there is movement.

Let's not get distracted by the noise around us. Focus on the task and do not get deterred from our mutual goals.

ZagDad

It isn't ALL the police, but every time one sees another committing the crime of going too far, and doesn't stop it, it continues. Every time one hears a racist joke, hears another cop use the 'N' word, hears another cop use language that denigrates minorities, and doesn't speak out to stop it, it will be a problem.
The police Unions, the Mayors and the 'thin blue line' are all in part to blame. When the police themselves decide to clean out the riff raff, it will be a start. As long as the everyday cop stays silent in the face of racism and brutality, it will be an ongoing problem.

sittingon50
06-03-2020, 09:13 PM
Related I believe: Few endorses Election Day be a day off.


https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/29263914/gonzaga-mark-cancel-all-team-activities-election-day-wants-other-coaches-join-him

ZagDad84
06-03-2020, 09:28 PM
willandi,

How many police officers are there in the U.S? In 2018, there were 686,665 full-time law enforcement officers employed in the United States.

How many interactions are there between the police and the public?

The portion of U.S. residents age 16 or older who had contact with the police in the preceding 12 months (2015) was 53.5 million. That is the number of people, the actual number of interactions, assuming at least some of the people had multiple interactions during the year, would likely be considerably higher.

Here is some additional information for you from Bureau of Justice published in October, 2018 for the calendar year 2015

Police contact by Demographic Characteristics:
Whites (23%) were more likely than blacks (20%) or Hispanics (17%) to have contact with police. Police were equally likely to initiate contact with blacks and whites (11% each) but were less likely to initiate contact with Hispanics (9%). Also, police were more likely to initiate contact with males (12%) than with females (9%), while females (11%) were more likely to initiate contact with police than males (10%).

Police-initiated contact:
Of the 223.3 million U.S. drivers, 8.6% experienced a stop as the driver of a motor vehicle. A greater percentage of stopped drivers were male (10.2%) than female (7.0%). Blacks (9.8%) were more likely than whites (8.6%) and Hispanics (7.6%) to be the driver in a traffic stop. Overall, 1.0% of persons experienced one or more street stops while in a public place or parked vehicle. A higher percentage of blacks (1.5%) experienced street stops than whites (0.9%) and Hispanics (0.9%).

Residents’ perceptions of police behavior:
The vast majority (95%) of drivers who experienced a traffic stop indicated that police gave a reason for the stop. The primary reason police gave for pulling over a driver was speeding (41%). Most drivers stopped for speeding said the stop was legitimate (91%) and that police behaved properly (95%). In comparison, 60% of residents who were stopped by police in a street stop thought the reason was legitimate, and 81% believed police behaved properly.

Non-fatal Threat or Use of Force by Police:
Two percent of U.S. residents who had contact with police experienced threats or use of force. Among those whose most recent contact was police-initiated, blacks (5.2%) and Hispanics (5.1%) were more likely than whites (2.4%), and males (4.4%) were more likely than females (1.8%), to experience the threat or use of physical force by police.

As of Dec. 31, statistics from the Officer Down Memorial Page, which tracks the deaths of officers in the U.S. and its territories, indicate that 131 police officers have died in 2019, it is not only a one-way street.

Willandi, not disagreeing with you at all. We have a long way to go and yes it is not just the police that committing the atrocities that need to be removed, discipline or re-trained.

Just asking that when you take the George Floyd atrocity and others like it out of the millions of police actions that occur every year, it is an extremely small percentage of the police-public interactions. The hundreds of thousands of law-abiding policemen who daily carry out their duties do not need to be placed in the same basket as the worthless cops who break their trust with the public.

Evan one unnecessary fatality at the hands of the police is unacceptable, but we also have to recognize the other side of the coin as well.

ZagDad

SLOZag
06-03-2020, 09:51 PM
I'm really having trouble biting my tongue over the lip service that is essentially excusing the rioting and looting that is occurring. ... From the minute I went on active duty, I was a minority. At that time Air Defense Artillery was about 1/3 white, 1/3 black, and 1/3 Hispanic. My best Group Commander was a black man, Johnie Forte Jr., who would achieve the rank of Brigadier General. ... I am extremely disappointed in the lack of leadership and courage displayed by the Governor of Minnesota.

Others have addressed the serious mistake that comes from confusing literally hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of peaceful protesters with a comparatively miniscule group of provocateurs who choose the demonstrations as an opportunity to destroy or steal property. As, like me, you appear to be a retired military man with concerns about the absence of leadership and courage in high places these days, I thought you might appreciate the thoughts published just today by retired four-star U.S. Marine Corps General Mattis, who served as President Donald Trump’s 26th Secretary of Defense from 2017 to 2018. General Mattis knows quite a bit about this topic, and he admits to being "angry and appalled" at "this week’s unfolding events":

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/03/read-mattis-statement-on-trumps-handling-of-nationwide-protests.html

jazzdelmar
06-04-2020, 03:27 AM
What’s always puzzled me is how such a high percent of mass killers — in schools, offices, theaters, worship places — are so easily arrested and taken in without much apparent physical harm. True, many do off themselves, thank god, and many are mowed down, same sentiment. But why are even a handful taken in after a meek surrender and seem largely unarmed. Hmmm, maybe there’s an answer in the general racial profile of these monsters.

willandi
06-04-2020, 06:05 AM
willandi,

How many police officers are there in the U.S? In 2018, there were 686,665 full-time law enforcement officers employed in the United States.

How many interactions are there between the police and the public?

The portion of U.S. residents age 16 or older who had contact with the police in the preceding 12 months (2015) was 53.5 million. That is the number of people, the actual number of interactions, assuming at least some of the people had multiple interactions during the year, would likely be considerably higher.

Here is some additional information for you from Bureau of Justice published in October, 2018 for the calendar year 2015

Police contact by Demographic Characteristics:
Whites (23%) were more likely than blacks (20%) or Hispanics (17%) to have contact with police. Police were equally likely to initiate contact with blacks and whites (11% each) but were less likely to initiate contact with Hispanics (9%). Also, police were more likely to initiate contact with males (12%) than with females (9%), while females (11%) were more likely to initiate contact with police than males (10%).

Police-initiated contact:
Of the 223.3 million U.S. drivers, 8.6% experienced a stop as the driver of a motor vehicle. A greater percentage of stopped drivers were male (10.2%) than female (7.0%). Blacks (9.8%) were more likely than whites (8.6%) and Hispanics (7.6%) to be the driver in a traffic stop. Overall, 1.0% of persons experienced one or more street stops while in a public place or parked vehicle. A higher percentage of blacks (1.5%) experienced street stops than whites (0.9%) and Hispanics (0.9%).

Residents’ perceptions of police behavior:
The vast majority (95%) of drivers who experienced a traffic stop indicated that police gave a reason for the stop. The primary reason police gave for pulling over a driver was speeding (41%). Most drivers stopped for speeding said the stop was legitimate (91%) and that police behaved properly (95%). In comparison, 60% of residents who were stopped by police in a street stop thought the reason was legitimate, and 81% believed police behaved properly.

Non-fatal Threat or Use of Force by Police:
Two percent of U.S. residents who had contact with police experienced threats or use of force. Among those whose most recent contact was police-initiated, blacks (5.2%) and Hispanics (5.1%) were more likely than whites (2.4%), and males (4.4%) were more likely than females (1.8%), to experience the threat or use of physical force by police.

As of Dec. 31, statistics from the Officer Down Memorial Page, which tracks the deaths of officers in the U.S. and its territories, indicate that 131 police officers have died in 2019, it is not only a one-way street.

Willandi, not disagreeing with you at all. We have a long way to go and yes it is not just the police that committing the atrocities that need to be removed, discipline or re-trained.

Just asking that when you take the George Floyd atrocity and others like it out of the millions of police actions that occur every year, it is an extremely small percentage of the police-public interactions. The hundreds of thousands of law-abiding policemen who daily carry out their duties do not need to be placed in the same basket as the worthless cops who break their trust with the public.

Evan one unnecessary fatality at the hands of the police is unacceptable, but we also have to recognize the other side of the coin as well.

ZagDad

It is interesting that you didn't actually respond to any of what I posted, about how it is possible to hold soldiers in combat zones accountable, but not Police. About the atrocities of the Tulsa Massacre and on going discrimination an violence used against People of Color. Or about the preversion of law that is qualified immunity.

You have offered up statistics that show the amount of contact, the number of people and, it seems to me, it is part of the same rationalization, the same justifications and excuses that are given, and used, to allow a pass to LEO.

I'm not saying you are wrong or that you are racist. I am saying that those are the same excuses used to allow the police to kill people.

According to government statistics in 2019, 235 black people were shot to death by police as opposed to 370 white, and 158 hispanics. There are 241 cases where the person's race is unknown. The reason for the fatal shooting or whether it was justifiable is not available in this study. It also should be noted that African Americans make up about 13% of the U.S. population according to the 2016 census, meaning the percentage of blacks and hispanics killed by police is very high, based on per capita.

72% of Americans are white.


https://wibx950.com/how-many-people-by-race-are-killed-by-police/

How about we de-militarize our police forces. Take away all the heavy riot gear, the weapons of war designed to keep them safe, but at the expense of those that they are supposed to be protecting and serving?

willandi
06-04-2020, 06:21 AM
What’s always puzzled me is how such a high percent of mass killers — in schools, offices, theaters, worship places — are so easily arrested and taken in without much apparent physical harm. True, many do off themselves, thank god, and many are mowed down, same sentiment. But why are even a handful taken in after a meek surrender and seem largely unarmed. Hmmm, maybe there’s an answer in the general racial profile of these monsters.

Agreed. That is a huge picture of the problem.

'FBI warned of white supremacists in law enforcement 10 years ago. Has anything changed

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/fbi-white-supremacists-in-law-enforcement?fbclid=IwAR337qNRiLwj33bN6dBhqW7mh25Nh oxWg86TV0kE7JcAW1CoEbqnVQbSBHc

LTownZag
06-04-2020, 08:00 AM
According to government statistics in 2019, 235 black people were shot to death by police as opposed to 370 white, and 158 hispanics. There are 241 cases where the person's race is unknown. The reason for the fatal shooting or whether it was justifiable is not available in this study. It also should be noted that African Americans make up about 13% of the U.S. population according to the 2016 census, meaning the percentage of blacks and hispanics killed by police is very high, based on per capita.

That's some really overly simplistic thinking about proportionality or disproportionality. Women are under-arrested per-capita, but we don't think police are uniformly sexist against men. We don't get worried that elderly americans, or Asian Americans, or Amish/mennonite/devout Muslim or orthodox Jewish americans are all arrested at levels FAR BELOW their raw per-capita numbers in the country. We don't accuse or assume that the police have massive hidden pro-women or pro-elderly or pro-Asian or Pro-religion biases to explain why so few people from those groups are arrested, assaulted by, or killed by police. We understand that it's silly to expect police interactions and police violence to be distributed equally (what current social justice proponents would call "equity") across a society with massively unequal crime rates.

If you compare the numbers of people from "x" group who are killed by police annually to the number of annual violent crimes, or arrests for violent crimes, or simply number of murders and assaults committed each year by people from "X" group, you find an extremely high correlation and close proportionality.

People over age 60 or women or Asian-Americans aren't committing murders, aren't encountering police in violent situations, and aren't getting arrested or killed. People from other groups (and basically just males from age 15-40 without stable employment or families) are doing all of those bad things, and are getting arrested and killed.




72% of Americans are white.


The 72% total groups hispanics with whites. I personally think all these categories are a stupid antiquated dead-end, but "white" americans make up 60% of the country, not 72%. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Americans#:~:text=White%20Americans%20(inclu ding%20White%20Hispanics,60.4%25%20of%20the%20U.S. %20population.)

ZagsObserver
06-04-2020, 08:10 AM
Let me preface by saying that we ought to do a better job of listening to lived experiences. Perception or reality, there is a lot of pain. As a majority race, whites need to recognize that history has not been kind to certain races. We bear that responsibility. It’s our turn and inherent obligation to do better in all areas. Again, it starts with listening.

As for your comment, Willandi, it’s not just looting and destruction. Officers were shot, a couple killed. Is that representative of most of the protesters? Absolutely not, nor are the brutal actions of certain cops representative of most cops. Rationalizations are unhelpful.

Obama actually made a nice statement regarding the state of affairs on this matter.

Kong-Kool-Aid
06-04-2020, 08:50 AM
These protests aren't just about this one incident, they are the result of systematic racism that continues to exist in society. It's time to end that racism, it's time for truth and reconciliation and for the United States to take a hard look of where it currently stands, how it got there, and how it can move forward acknowledging the past and changing to fix these wrongs in the future.

As Dr. King said... "We cannot have an enlightened democracy with one great group living in ignorance."

jazzdelmar
06-04-2020, 09:03 AM
Stupid Drew Brees stepped right into the trap, conflating Kap with disrespecting the flag. Was never that. Anthem was chosen as flashpoint for reasonable protest. Kap et al could have articulated better as well. NFL wraps itself in flag for monetary reasons and for typical fans. Sad.

JPtheBeasta
06-04-2020, 09:26 AM
Stupid Drew Brees stepped right into the trap, conflating Kap with disrespecting the flag. Was never that. Anthem was chosen as flashpoint for reasonable protest. Kap et al could have articulated better as well. NFL wraps itself in flag for monetary reasons and for typical fans. Sad.

It may still be due to conflation but, if so, the debate was about disrespecting the flag very early on. This error was never corrected. For many people on the outside this was about disrespecting the flag, because his protest happened during the anthem, and it seems revisionist to suggest it was never about that. I don’t think his protest would have been offensive to so many if it happened at another time during pregame (any time but the anthem, essentially). This may be another example of persons talking past each other, or worse— people trying to take control of the narrative with an alternate reality.

willandi
06-04-2020, 09:26 AM
That's some really overly simplistic thinking about proportionality or disproportionality. Women are under-arrested per-capita, but we don't think police are uniformly sexist against men. We don't get worried that elderly americans, or Asian Americans, or Amish/mennonite/devout Muslim or orthodox Jewish americans are all arrested at levels FAR BELOW their raw per-capita numbers in the country. We don't accuse or assume that the police have massive hidden pro-women or pro-elderly or pro-Asian or Pro-religion biases to explain why so few people from those groups are arrested, assaulted by, or killed by police. We understand that it's silly to expect police interactions and police violence to be distributed equally (what current social justice proponents would call "equity") across a society with massively unequal crime rates.

If you compare the numbers of people from "x" group who are killed by police annually to the number of annual violent crimes, or arrests for violent crimes, or simply number of murders and assaults committed each year by people from "X" group, you find an extremely high correlation and close proportionality.

People over age 60 or women or Asian-Americans aren't committing murders, aren't encountering police in violent situations, and aren't getting arrested or killed. People from other groups (and basically just males from age 15-40 without stable employment or families) are doing all of those bad things, and are getting arrested and killed.



The 72% total groups hispanics with whites. I personally think all these categories are a stupid antiquated dead-end, but "white" americans make up 60% of the country, not 72%. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Americans#:~:text=White%20Americans%20(inclu ding%20White%20Hispanics,60.4%25%20of%20the%20U.S. %20population.)

Much of the reasons that age group is getting killed is economic, which often is tied directly back into race. Educational opportunities for blacks are well below that of whites. The schools for predominately white, urban kids get the money and support. Black kids and rural kids have fewer computers to work with, fewer teachers wanting to teach there etc.

Rather than disagreeing with my statistics, what do YOU think should be done to alleviate this problem and eventually solve it?

Please be somewhat specific.

jazzdelmar
06-04-2020, 09:32 AM
It may still be due to conflation but, if so, the debate was about disrespecting the flag very early on. This error was never corrected. For many people on the outside this was about disrespecting the flag, because his protest happened during the anthem, and it seems revisionist to suggest it was never about that. I don’t think his protest would have been offensive to so many if it happened at another time during pregame (any time but the anthem, essentially). This may be another example of persons talking past each other, or worse— people trying to take control of the narrative with an alternate reality.

That’s exactly my point. Once the furor began there was no one on the Kap side with enough sense to articulate what the purpose of the demonstration was. Tommie Smith and Juan Carlos were different. They were protesting America through the flag, imo. Though oddly they carried small flags. Kap handled it poorly it might have played out differently. But Brees — who never served — was wrong wrapping himself in the flag and praising his grandfather. Geez.

LongIslandZagFan
06-04-2020, 09:33 AM
Police contact by Demographic Characteristics:
Whites (23%) were more likely than blacks (20%) or Hispanics (17%) to have contact with police. Police were equally likely to initiate contact with blacks and whites (11% each) but were less likely to initiate contact with Hispanics (9%). Also, police were more likely to initiate contact with males (12%) than with females (9%), while females (11%) were more likely to initiate contact with police than males (10%).



Here is what this stat leaves out. A comparison. Whites make up 60% of the population... Blacks make up 13%. Hispanic 18%.

MDABE80
06-04-2020, 10:26 AM
JP correct. It was about the flag and somebody or some peoples shifted it to police beating up blacks/shooting blacks. Not it's shifted to equality. These shifts lead me to believe it can be whatever the BLM folks/ media wants it to be in any given situation. All these black athletes ( some white ones too) step into the arguments and really don't understand the shifting.
Kap will never be hired by a team for a couple of reasons, he's destructive and divisive in a team sport..........and when he had a good season or two, he lost his edge and is mediocre. Social issuess on a baskeball board? Can't be good outcome. Foo? or somewhere else.?? Sorry but someone had to say it.... probably best to move this!

jazzdelmar
06-04-2020, 10:38 AM
It may still be due to conflation but, if so, the debate was about disrespecting the flag very early on. This error was never corrected. For many people on the outside this was about disrespecting the flag, because his protest happened during the anthem, and it seems revisionist to suggest it was never about that. I don’t think his protest would have been offensive to so many if it happened at another time during pregame (any time but the anthem, essentially). This may be another example of persons talking past each other, or worse— people trying to take control of the narrative with an alternate reality.

Don’t you think it would have been more disrespectful if the players fled to the locker room or tunnel right before the anthem? They did stay, many stood, some kneeled. I don’t think there’s a comparable point in the game where public attention — especially tv — is as laser focused as the anthem.

TexasZagFan
06-04-2020, 10:39 AM
I'd like to thank everybody who's posted their thoughts on this thread. The respectful manner of discourse is most appreciated.

I think it's safe to say we should all listen more to others. I encountered a bit of that last summer at Monticello. A black woman asked Thomas Jefferson's "interpreter" some very pointed questions on slavery. IIRC, he took a good 20 minutes to try and explain his position. It gave us more insight how Mr. Jefferson dealt with it, and in no way did he absolve himself for being a slave owner.

I saw the woman in the gift shop, and I thanked her for asking her questions. Her reply was refreshing: "I'm a school librarian in Manassas, VA, and I learned that I need to read a lot more!" Listening and reading more is a good start to getting our nation back on track.

As to the brouhaha between Trump and Mattis, I pay no attention to it, it's a continuation of the battles they've had with each other for several years now. I wish POTUS could act more presidential, a good first step would be to cancel his Twitter account. I'd also like for Generals and Flag Officers to get it through their thick skulls that when they retire, they're ordinary citizens like the rest of us. Of course I respect their service, but they need to fade away, as MacArthur suggested.

jazzdelmar
06-04-2020, 10:39 AM
JP correct. It was about the flag and somebody or some peoples shifted it to police beating up blacks/shooting blacks. Not it's shifted to equality. These shifts lead me to believe it can be whatever the BLM folks/ media wants it to be in any given situation. All these black athletes ( some white ones too) step into the arguments and really don't understand the shifting.
Kap will never be hired by a team for a couple of reasons, he's destructive and divisive in a team sport..........and when he had a good season or two, he lost his edge and is mediocre. Social issuess on a baskeball board? Can't be good outcome. Foo? or somewhere else.?? Sorry but someone had to say it.... probably best to move this!

Ur spot on D. Can’t believe we’ve gotten this far.

jazzdelmar
06-04-2020, 10:41 AM
I'd like to thank everybody who's posted their thoughts on this thread. The respectful manner of discourse is most appreciated.

I think it's safe to say we should all listen more to others. I encountered a bit of that last summer at Monticello. A black woman asked Thomas Jefferson's "interpreter" some very pointed questions on slavery. IIRC, he took a good 20 minutes to try and explain his position. It gave us more insight how Mr. Jefferson dealt with it, and in no way did he absolve himself for being a slave owner.

I saw the woman in the gift shop, and I thanked her for asking her questions. Her reply was refreshing: "I'm a school librarian in Manassas, VA, and I learned that I need to read a lot more!" Listening and reading more is a good start to getting our nation back on track.

As to the brouhaha between Trump and Mattis, I pay no attention to it, it's a continuation of the battles they've had with each other for several years now. I wish POTUS could act more presidential, a good first step would be to cancel his Twitter account. I'd also like for Generals and Flag Officers to get it through their thick skulls that when they retire, they're ordinary citizens like the rest of us. Of course I respect their service, but they need to fade away, as MacArthur suggested.

And pass up those fat expert fees from cable news? Not bloody likely Tex.

TexasZagFan
06-04-2020, 10:48 AM
And pass up those fat expert fees from cable news? Not bloody likely Tex.

Ain't that the truth. Time for me to admit my bias, regarding retired field grade and generals. One of my extra duties in my last job at Fort Bliss was to oversee our Dining Facility. Twice a month, a group of retired officers had breakfast meetings in my mess hall. God forbid my cooks didn't cater to them in a matter acceptable to them. My boss, the battalion commander, would get a call from them, and you know how the fecal matter rolls downhill.

My response didn't sit too well with him: Dammit Colonel, my cooks don't have a secondary MOS as waiters. They're too busy cooking and serving OUR soldiers. Thus began a quick descent to the end of my promising military career! :lmao:

ETA: When my mess hall was named CG's Best Mess, the kudos I received from the Bn Cdr was "don't let it go to your head."

jazzdelmar
06-04-2020, 10:59 AM
Ain't that the truth. Time for me to admit my bias, regarding retired field grade and generals. One of my extra duties in my last job at Fort Bliss was to oversee our Dining Facility. Twice a month, a group of retired officers had breakfast meetings in my mess hall. God forbid my cooks didn't cater to them in a matter acceptable to them. My boss, the battalion commander, would get a call from them, and you know how the fecal matter rolls downhill.

My response didn't sit too well with him: Dammit Colonel, my cooks don't have a secondary MOS as waiters. They're too busy cooking and serving OUR soldiers. Thus began a quick descent to the end of my promising military career! :lmao:

ETA: When my mess hall was named CG's Best Mess, the kudos I received from the Bn Cdr was "don't let it go to your head."

I was a lowly Spec 4 E 4 so I have no idea what you’re talking about. But I’d be happy to drop down and give you 20. Haven’t heard MOS in years. I was combat engineer, heavy equipment operator. And before arriving at Lewis’ North Fort and the old Yakima firing center I’d never even driven a shift car. SNAFU, as you know so well. Carry on with scheduled training....

TexasZagFan
06-04-2020, 11:03 AM
I was a lowly Spec 4 E 4 so I have no idea what you’re talking about. But I’d be happy to drop down and give you 20. Haven’t heard MOS in years. I was combat engineer, heavy equipment operator. And before arriving at Lewis’ North Fort and the old Yakima firing center I’d never even driven a shift car. SNAFU, as you know so well. Carry on with scheduled training....

Give yourself more credit, jazz. My platoon with 3 E4 squad leaders was one of the best times of my life. I think I was still a butterbar at the time.

JPtheBeasta
06-04-2020, 11:24 AM
Don’t you think it would have been more disrespectful if the players fled to the locker room or tunnel right before the anthem? They did stay, many stood, some kneeled. I don’t think there’s a comparable point in the game where public attention — especially tv — is as laser focused as the anthem.

What I had in mind would be something like taking a knee right after the anthem. Or right before. Or at the coin flip. I think he could have gotten enough attention, and likely more wide-spread support, from a protest at a less divisive time (namely, during the anthem). His choice to protest then basically said to a lot of people, “I don’t respect the persons who died for this country, and the founding fathers, and the pilgrims, and the politicians who are trying to make this a better place.”

George Floyd, and other civilians who died unjustly, are also persons that should be included when we sing the anthem, and contemplate the flag and everything it represents. Instead, it’s a divisive us vs them issue.

Ladyzag12
06-04-2020, 11:36 AM
My husband had an enlightening experience with Sam Dower when he lived in Desmet near Sam. My husband was driving with Sam and two white men to the McDonalds downtown at around 11 pm. Sam was in the passenger seat, preventing an officer driving nearby them to only see Sam. He quickly lit them up and when my husband pulled over 3 cop cars and multiple officers were on the scene. They removed Sam from the car. They claimed Sam didn't have his seatbelt on, but neither did the other two passengers. My husband couldn't believe that experience compared to his other experiences with the police. My father in law is a LEO and that experience changed my husband's view on this topic. He was ashamed he didn't offer assistance to Sam during the experience and was just shell shocked.

Gonzdb8
06-04-2020, 12:30 PM
many of the posts in the thread are enough to make me weep. the mental gymnastics some people engage in to dismiss/minimize/ignore/justify the lived experience of black america is frightening. i agree ..... lets please shut this thread down and/or move it.

LTownZag
06-04-2020, 12:52 PM
Rather than disagreeing with my statistics, what do YOU think should be done to alleviate this problem and eventually solve it?

Please be somewhat specific.

I don’t dispute your total per capita statistic, I just think it’s irrelevant. Compare deaths by cop to groups which draw the attention of cops and interact with them, not to the whole population.

What is the specific problem you are asking me about solutions to?

If the problem is unarmed black men shot by police, then it’s a problem already tiny in size and already being solved. The total was 38 shot in 2015 and 9 people in all of 2019. That’s still too many, and it’s only those shot to death, so some years there were a few tragic deaths like George Floyd, who weren’t shot.

Seattle PD revised their entire use-of-force policy 5 years ago and their violent civilian incidents have fallen by 60%. Yet SPD is being protested and treated as though they have made no progress or change or as if their policy killed George Floyd. The NYPD is also at the forefront in terms of fewest civilian deaths relative to size of police force and number of crimes in the police department area. Yet they are protested and treated as though it is 1962 and Edmund Pettus is the NYC police commissioner. I think we should continue to solve problems by acknowledging and rewarding all the good work and solutions already in place, and by spreading those solutions. Not by inflating the scope of the problem by burying our heads in the sand from the numbers.

There were 9 unarmed black men shot by police in 2019. That’s a tiny number of deaths and is itself a much smaller than the number was 20 years ago or 10 years ago or five years ago.

——

It seems like there far more evidence that black males are unjustly and disproportionately “roughed up” or otherwise pulled over, humiliated, and physically man handled, than white males. The stories and anecdotes (including from Sam Dower) support this, as does the empirical study from Black Harvard Economist Roland Fryer.

—-


The initial post and the Zagdad post on page1 were excellent. Thanks for contributing.

Bogozags
06-04-2020, 02:21 PM
This isn't about numbers of Black Americans being shot 10, 15, 25 or 50 years ago but rather that it is still happening on a regular basis...One is too many, which is why you see the whole country in disarray. Seattle might not have shot a person of color in the last 20 years but the issue isn't so much in Seattle but rather what has happened so many times or the last few years...

The protests are not just about the death of Floyd but rather the entire gambit of racism that exists in this country, which is felt every day by people of color. It is about a Black American being pulled over and questioned if they actually own the car; pulling over a Black American female for a bad taillight and then harassed, arrested, thrown in jail and then hanging herself a Black American being shot standing by their SUV and not making a move towards the many police officers present and then shot too death...and on and on and on...

Black American parents have "The Talk" with all their children when they are old enough to understand about how they should never question the "WHY" they were pulled over but rather do as they are told and file complaints later, because if they were to question then the reason, then things could very well end up badly.

Case in point an NBA player, late at night, when to the drug store to purchase something for his pregnant wife. The parking lot was empty and he chose to park in a Handicap Parking Space. While the player was in the store, a police officer stopped and began writing a ticket because there was not handicap placard or license plate. When the player came out the two of them began to converse and the player was not disrespectful to the officer but the officer called for back-up and eventually, the player was taken down and placed under arrest...

There are just so many concerns Black Americans must worry about, while European Americans do not have these concerns...

ZagDad84
06-04-2020, 02:40 PM
There are just so many concerns Black Americans must worry about, while European Americans do not have these concerns...

Just as a reminder:

On July 15, 2017, Justine Damond, née Ruszczyk, a 40-year-old Australian-American woman, was fatally shot by Mohamed Noor, a Somali-American Minneapolis Police Department officer, after she had called 9-1-1 to report the possible assault of a woman in an alley behind her house. Occurring weeks after a high-profile manslaughter trial acquittal in the 2016 police shooting of Philando Castile, also in the Twin Cities metro area, the shooting exacerbated existing tensions and attracted national and international press.

On March 20, 2018, Noor was charged with second-degree manslaughter and third-degree murder. Prosecutors later upgraded the charges against Noor to second-degree intentional murder. In April 2019, Noor was convicted of third-degree murder and manslaughter, but acquitted of intentional second-degree murder. In June 2019, Noor was sentenced to 12.5 years in prison.

Same town, Minneapolis. Same reason, excessive use of lethal force by police. Same result, death of an innocent person.

Did I miss the Public Outcry, the Protest Marches, the Looting and Riots, the nationwide news coverage for weeks?

Did you notice the dates on the Justine Damond murderer? It took 8 months to even place charges on the police officer that killed her.

Use of excessive force and lethal force by the nation's police force is a systemic problem that affects all of society, not just limited to our African American friends.

ZagDad

BearDownZags
06-04-2020, 03:36 PM
SHUT THIS THREAD DOWN. Some of the posts on here are horrifying and will or should horrify many of those associated with the program and the University and those considering being associated with it. Take it elsewhere or better yet consult with someone that is directly affected by the systematic racism in this country before expressing your opinion on something you haven’t experienced.

TexasZagFan
06-04-2020, 04:02 PM
SHUT THIS THREAD DOWN. Some of the posts on here are horrifying and will or should horrify many of those associated with the program and the University and those considering being associated with it. Take it elsewhere or better yet consult with someone that is directly affected by the systematic racism in this country before expressing your opinion on something you haven’t experienced.

Are you afraid of other people having opinions different than yours? Damn, you should have seen the campus during the 70s. Sociology students were using us as lab rats for their experiments. We seemed to survive that era. And the stories I could tell about living next door to my good friend, Willie Moss, one of the sweetest guys you'd ever want to meet.

FloridaZagFan
06-04-2020, 04:14 PM
First and foremost I am an American. I happen to be a white American so apparently when I speak I have to be very careful that I don't offend anyone!

Prejudice comes in all colors,
ages,
shapes and sizes.

No question things have to change. l am not black so I will never know the injustice that many feel on a daily basis.
I know the vast majority of protesters are not looters or violent. The looters are just opportunistic thugs!
Anyway I can only control what I do and who I am. I have great friends who are black, Asian, Hispanic and oh yes white.
When the announcer for the Sac Kings is fired for saying all lives matter instead of black lives matter it makes me wonder if Don Lemon (CNN) said all lives matter what would happen? My guess is a promotion.

Prejudice comes in all colors, ages,shapes and sizes.

ZagDad84
06-04-2020, 04:20 PM
Prejudice comes in all colors, ages,shapes and sizes.

Now you did it.

ZagDad

TexasZagFan
06-04-2020, 04:26 PM
First and foremost I am an American. I happen to be a white American so apparently when I speak I have to be very careful that I don't offend anyone!

Prejudice comes in all colors,
ages,
shapes and sizes.

No question things have to change. l am not black so I will never know the injustice that many feel on a daily basis.
I know the vast majority of protesters are not looters or violent. The looters are just opportunistic thugs!
Anyway I can only control what I do and who I am. I have great friends who are black, Asian, Hispanic and oh yes white.
When the announcer for the Sac Kings is fired for saying all lives matter instead of black lives matter it makes me wonder if Don Lemon (CNN) said all lives matter what would happen? My guess is a promotion.

Prejudice comes in all colors, ages, shapes and sizes.

Well said...of course, the vast majority of protestors are demonstrating peacefully. However, let's say that you have 5000 in the streets, and 99% are peaceful. That leaves 50 rioters to wreak havoc, riot, and loot. Fifty rioters can do a lot of damage if they're not stopped. In too many cases, they encountered no resistance from local police.

zagdontzig
06-04-2020, 04:34 PM
Just as a reminder:

On July 15, 2017, Justine Damond, née Ruszczyk, a 40-year-old Australian-American woman, was fatally shot by Mohamed Noor, a Somali-American Minneapolis Police Department officer, after she had called 9-1-1 to report the possible assault of a woman in an alley behind her house. Occurring weeks after a high-profile manslaughter trial acquittal in the 2016 police shooting of Philando Castile, also in the Twin Cities metro area, the shooting exacerbated existing tensions and attracted national and international press.

On March 20, 2018, Noor was charged with second-degree manslaughter and third-degree murder. Prosecutors later upgraded the charges against Noor to second-degree intentional murder. In April 2019, Noor was convicted of third-degree murder and manslaughter, but acquitted of intentional second-degree murder. In June 2019, Noor was sentenced to 12.5 years in prison.

Same town, Minneapolis. Same reason, excessive use of lethal force by police. Same result, death of an innocent person.

Did I miss the Public Outcry, the Protest Marches, the Looting and Riots, the nationwide news coverage for weeks?

Did you notice the dates on the Justine Damond murderer? It took 8 months to even place charges on the police officer that killed her.

Use of excessive force and lethal force by the nation's police force is a systemic problem that affects all of society, not just limited to our African American friends.

ZagDad

You're missing the forest for the trees. Our country doesn't have an history of enslaving, then oppressing white people. In fact, we had a federal statute that made extrajudicial lynching of "colored people" lawful on the books until 2007, while obviously not being enforced as such.

No one is arguing that crime is bad by and against any race, but you're opinion is inconsistent with the overwhelming weight of evidence that black people continue to be grossly oppressed. Your individual cases are obvious red herrings.

FloridaZagFan
06-04-2020, 04:51 PM
Well said...of course, the vast majority of protestors are demonstrating peacefully. However, let's say that you have 5000 in the streets, and 99% are peaceful. That leaves 50 rioters to wreak havoc, riot, and loot. Fifty rioters can do a lot of damage if they're not stopped. In too many cases, they encountered no resistance from local police.

Tex I agree! 5 can do tremendous damage and must be stopped. Its ridiculous that the police are handcuffed! All and I mean all the people that are quasi justifying these riots and allowing destruction of property and police or law enforcement to be killed or injured have one thing in common!! If that mob was in their neighborhood who would they call? The police!

Back to basketball! Let's go Zag's, cant wait to beat St Marys by 35 in Moraga next year!!!!!!

Markburn1
06-04-2020, 05:42 PM
SHUT THIS THREAD DOWN. Some of the posts on here are horrifying and will or should horrify many of those associated with the program and the University and those considering being associated with it. Take it elsewhere or better yet consult with someone that is directly affected by the systematic racism in this country before expressing your opinion on something you haven’t experienced.

How about you use this space to persuade people that you disagree with to see your side of the story.

We inevitably are told when something like this happens that we need to have a national discussion about race. If you shut down the conversation when something is said that doesn’t meet your approval we’ll never get anywhere.

Nobody is getting hurt here. Different viewpoints are being shared.

Carry on.

ZagDad84
06-04-2020, 06:37 PM
You're missing the forest for the trees. Our country doesn't have an history of enslaving, then oppressing white people. In fact, we had a federal statute that made extrajudicial lynching of "colored people" lawful on the books until 2007, while obviously not being enforced as such.

No one is arguing that crime is bad by and against any race, but you're opinion is inconsistent with the overwhelming weight of evidence that black people continue to be grossly oppressed. Your individual cases are obvious red herrings.

O'K, you got me.

I simply pointed out that a very similar case involving a white woman was handled and treated very differently by the mass media and the BLM. That unjustified excessive use of force and lethal force by the police department is not exclusive to the black community. That is a 100% correct statement, not a "red herring" as you put it. You want more, Otto Zehm right here in Spokane, beaten to death by a police officer because he felt he was threatened by a deadly 2-liter bottle of soda. The issue is to solve the problem not keep arguing about how one race is more mistreated than another, which gets nobody anywhere.

Where did I ever propose an opinion that black people are not continuing to be grossly oppressed?

I have not posted a response on systemic racism in the US because that is undeniable and certainly needs to be addressed.

ZagDad

Kong-Kool-Aid
06-04-2020, 06:52 PM
White privilege is a thing.

Systematic racism is a thing.

Again, until the United States follows other countries leads in looking towards Truth and Reconciliation, and then actively works towards achieving the end goals of fixing the still lingering effects of a societal structure built on racism and white privilege. These protests will continue, as they should.

Kong-Kool-Aid
06-04-2020, 06:56 PM
O'K, you got me.

I simply pointed out that a very similar case involving a white woman was handled and treated very differently by the mass media and the BLM. That unjustified excessive use of force and lethal force by the police department is not exclusive to the black community. That is a 100% correct statement, not a "red herring" as you put it. You want more, Otto Zehm right here in Spokane, beaten to death by a police officer because he felt he was threatened by a deadly 2-liter bottle of soda. The issue is to solve the problem not keep arguing about how one race is more mistreated than another, which gets nobody anywhere.

Where did I ever propose an opinion that black people are not continuing to be grossly oppressed?

I have not posted a response on systemic racism in the US because that is undeniable and certainly needs to be addressed.

ZagDad

What does pointing out other injustices have to do with anything? whataboutism at it's finest.

" The issue is to solve the problem not keep arguing about how one race is more mistreated than another"

How is this even an argument? It's an undeniable truth. No problems can be solved without people being able to recognize this.

willandi
06-04-2020, 07:36 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LoH_iBYpOY

LTownZag
06-04-2020, 07:41 PM
SHUT THIS THREAD DOWN. Some of the posts on here are horrifying and will or should horrify many of those associated with the program and the University and those considering being associated with it. Take it elsewhere or better yet consult with someone that is directly affected by the systematic racism in this country before expressing your opinion on something you haven’t experienced.

I think everyone this far has been respectful and fairly polite! Even views I disagree with have been stated clearly and honestly and I don’t see caricatures or straw men or ad hominems being used.

Nice work Zag fans!
Actually

Markburn1
06-04-2020, 07:47 PM
White privilege is a thing.

Systematic racism is a thing.

Again, until the United States follows other countries leads in looking towards Truth and Reconciliation, and then actively works towards achieving the end goals of fixing the still lingering effects of a societal structure built on racism and white privilege. These protests will continue, as they should.

Claiming racism has been solved to a greater degree in other countries is incorrect. Many, if not most, countries have as big or bigger issues in that regard.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Europe

Europe is supposed to be the enlightened continent. Nope

It’s even worse in Asia and Africa.

Racism is everywhere. In point of fact, everyone here is or has been guilty of it at one time or another. And it isn’t limited to people of white European descent.

There’s a lot of work to do.

Kong-Kool-Aid
06-04-2020, 08:05 PM
Claiming racism has been solved to a greater degree in other countries is incorrect. Many, if not most, countries have as big or bigger issues in that regard.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Europe

Europe is supposed to be the enlightened continent. Nope

It’s even worse in Asia and Africa.

Racism is everywhere. In point of fact, everyone here is or has been guilty of it at one time or another. And it isn’t limited to people of white European descent.

There’s a lot of work to do.

I've not made that claim once. Not sure how you got that from what I said.

My suggestion is the government take direct action and look at ways in which America as a whole can look to work towards erasing the inequalities of the past, and then implement a real plan in order to fix those issues

Fact of the matter is that white Americans have privileges and opportunities that black Americans simply do not have because of the systematic racism that exists and the undeniable fact that the system we have now is built upon slavery and oppressing those who were not white.

It's not going to be an overnight fix, but ignoring the issues will never make things better.

Other countries who have taken steps to acknowledge systematic racism in their countries and devise plans to fix these inequalities include Canada, New Zealand and South Africa. And though I shouldn't have to point it out.. but no, systematic racism has not disappeared in those countries, but the framework is in place, and there are actionable plans that will hopefully move things in a positive direction and improve lives for everyone in the future.

LongIslandZagFan
06-04-2020, 08:11 PM
The lack of understanding and outright falsehoods on this thread is both mind blowing and outright sad. This is exactly why nothing will change this time around or the next or the next. It will never change... mostly due to the same mindset on this thread. We as a whole lack the compassion And the backbone to make any substantive change. Makes me sad for our country. As a sign in a protest in Spain said... America, we are watching you.

Kong-Kool-Aid
06-04-2020, 08:12 PM
The lack of understanding and outright falsehoods on this thread is both mind blowing and outright sad. This is exactly why nothing will change this time around or the next or the next. It will never change... mostly due to the same mindset on this thread. We as a whole lack the compassion And the backbone to make any substantive change. Makes me sad for our country. As a sign in a protest in Spain said... America, we are watching you.

Absolutely agree 100%

LTownZag
06-04-2020, 08:44 PM
The lack of understanding and outright falsehoods on this thread is both mind blowing and outright sad. This is exactly why nothing will change this time around or the next or the next. It will never change... mostly due to the same mindset on this thread. We as a whole lack the compassion And the backbone to make any substantive change. Makes me sad for our country. As a sign in a protest in Spain said... America, we are watching you.

Hey LIZF - I appreciate and respect you and am grateful for your contributions here. I'm curious what a couple of the outright falsehoods are. I see folks displaying different sorts of tones or opinions or "moods" but I'm genuinely haven't noticed mind-blowing outright falsehoods which you said you did. Perhaps if I have, and I didn't notice it, then I didn't know something was false and I ought to know.


Kong-Kool-Aid - You've twice suggested the USA federally conduct some kind of process modeled on the Truth and Reconciliation commission in South Africa from 1996, which of course sought to hear from citizens and government officials who had oppressed them under their legally enforced segregation, which had ended 3-4 years earlier. I'm not necessarily opposed to some kind of analogous process federally in the USA, but who would such a commission hear from, since any allowed segregation or racial discrimination in hiring, gathering, commerce, and employment ended with the civil rights act (1964) or Fair Housing Act (1968), 52 and 56 years ago respectively, a span longer than Appomattox to Versaille. I'm not saying personal racism or casual illegal discrimination did not continue, but that wasn't the subject of national Truth and Reconciliation commissions. Nobody who was in the federal government prior to those bills is still serving, almost none are even alive. Would the commission you envision be more academic/historical/researching in nature? Do you expect it would uncover information as-yet unknown about the era of Jim Crow, which would prove beneficial to Black americans? Again, I'm open to this scenario but I'm curious what new knowledge you hope such a commission would produce and how such production would be used to benefit folks today.

TexasZagFan
06-04-2020, 08:52 PM
Hey LIZF - I appreciate and respect you and am grateful for your contributions here. I'm curious what a couple of the outright falsehoods are. I see folks displaying different sorts of tones or opinions or "moods" but I'm genuinely haven't noticed mind-blowing outright falsehoods. Perhaps if I have, and I didn't notice it, then I didn't know something was false and I ought to know.


Kong-Kool-Aid - You've twice suggested the USA federally conduct some kind of process modeled on the Truth and Reconciliation commission in South Africa from 1996, which of course sought to hear from citizens and government officials who had oppressed them under apartheid, which ended 3-4 years earlier. I'm not necessarily opposed to some kind of analogous process federally in the USA, but who would such a commission hear from, since any legally allowed segregation or racial discrimination in hiring, gathering, and employment ended with the civil rights act (1964) or Fair Housing Act (1968), 52 and 56 years ago respectively, longer than Appomattox to Versaille. Nobody who was in the federal government prior to those bills is still serving, almost none are alive. Would the commission you envision be more academic/historical? Do you expect it would uncover information as-yet unknown about the era of Jim Crow, which would prove beneficial to Black americans? Again, I'm open to this scenario but I'm curious what new knowledge you hope such a commission would produce and how such production would be used to benefit folks today.

I was thinking along the same lines, though not in the detail that you wrote. Why can't we have honest discussions of the path forward, post Civil Rights Act, without the name calling and political posturing? We are rapidly approaching a $30 trillion deficit, it's simply not sustainable, and our children and grandchildren are going to suffer for it.

Grandchildren has extra meaning to me tonight, my granddaughter will be born within the next hour...they entered the OR about ten minutes ago.

MDABE80
06-04-2020, 09:17 PM
School us LIZ and Kong. I’m just watching. But this thread should be moved not shutdown like Beardown” recommended.

willandi
06-04-2020, 09:52 PM
To me, and it is just my opinion, the first place to start is to identify those LEO that are members of hate groups. It probably would not be legal to fire them because they do have a right to join them, but their duties can be limited to fields where they are least likely to have a detrimental effect. Some, like the Police chief in Minneapolis, need to be dealt with some how and some way. There are many in the community that have identified him as racist. But not JUST racist cops. Those cops that have been accused of excessive force, and more. Start by identifying the problem ones and work harder to ensure that new hires don't come in with those attitudes, and make the ones that cause problems be accountable.

The second idea, and again it's mine, would be to have school districts start building new schools in the inner city neighborhoods that propagate much of the problem kids. Build state of the art, the best of the best, the best teachers...good enough that white kids want to transfer in to take advantage of the benefits. Sadly, there would also need to be security measures built in, to protect the school and the students against all that don't want the success. Many Black students have described how they have had to hide their accomplishments because of pressure from the hood.
If the neighborhood can be improved from the inside, not just slum apartment buildings, but by educating the people there so they can lift themselves up, it would be another start.

There is no one answer to eradicating racism. Those two ideas are mine as a place to start. Please feel free to present your own.

sittingon50
06-04-2020, 09:57 PM
I was thinking along the same lines, though not in the detail that you wrote. Why can't we have honest discussions of the path forward, post Civil Rights Act, without the name calling and political posturing? We are rapidly approaching a $30 trillion deficit, it's simply not sustainable, and our children and grandchildren are going to suffer for it.

Grandchildren has extra meaning to me tonight, my granddaughter will be born within the next hour...they entered the OR about ten minutes ago.

Wishing Mom & baby well, TZF.

zagdontzig
06-04-2020, 09:57 PM
O'K, you got me.

I simply pointed out that a very similar case involving a white woman was handled and treated very differently by the mass media and the BLM. That unjustified excessive use of force and lethal force by the police department is not exclusive to the black community. That is a 100% correct statement, not a "red herring" as you put it. You want more, Otto Zehm right here in Spokane, beaten to death by a police officer because he felt he was threatened by a deadly 2-liter bottle of soda. The issue is to solve the problem not keep arguing about how one race is more mistreated than another, which gets nobody anywhere.

Where did I ever propose an opinion that black people are not continuing to be grossly oppressed?

I have not posted a response on systemic racism in the US because that is undeniable and certainly needs to be addressed.

ZagDad

I’m not trying to “get you.” Not clear initially, it appears we broadly see eye-to-eye.

Fonebone
06-04-2020, 11:42 PM
I appreciate that the mods left this thread open. I assume that has not been an easy decision, and I also assume part of the reason it’s left open is a recognition of the importance of this topic, at this specific time.

Also while there are clearly posters with fundamentally different perspectives, I’m encouraged by the fact that for the most part folks are respectful. We are all, every one of us, only seeing a piece of the puzzle, those we disagree with are only seeing a different piece.

The piece of the puzzle that I’m seeing right now is that if some of us had lived some of the experiences we’ve read about Sam Dower experiencing, there would be a major shift in which piece of reality carried more weight as we thought about these issues.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Bogozags
06-05-2020, 03:47 AM
I was thinking along the same lines, though not in the detail that you wrote. Why can't we have honest discussions of the path forward, post Civil Rights Act, without the name calling and political posturing? We are rapidly approaching a $30 trillion deficit, it's simply not sustainable, and our children and grandchildren are going to suffer for it.

Grandchildren has extra meaning to me tonight, my granddaughter will be born within the next hour...they entered the OR about ten minutes ago.

TZF first off, CONGRATULATIONS on the arrival of your first granddaughter!!! We have one and she is two years younger than her brother and so much more advanced than her brother at the same age!!! I just enjoy watching both grow and just hope I will be around when they graduate from high school...the four year old brother is constantly using his iPhone X...it is just amazing

jazzdelmar
06-05-2020, 04:47 AM
See, this kind of crass political pandering does not help the cause. Biden's "Deplorables" moment. Shameful and dumb. That's 50 million people.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/04/us/politics/joe-biden-not-good-people.html

LongIslandZagFan
06-05-2020, 04:52 AM
Hey LIZF - I appreciate and respect you and am grateful for your contributions here. I'm curious what a couple of the outright falsehoods are. I see folks displaying different sorts of tones or opinions or "moods" but I'm genuinely haven't noticed mind-blowing outright falsehoods which you said you did. Perhaps if I have, and I didn't notice it, then I didn't know something was false and I ought to know.


Kong-Kool-Aid - You've twice suggested the USA federally conduct some kind of process modeled on the Truth and Reconciliation commission in South Africa from 1996, which of course sought to hear from citizens and government officials who had oppressed them under their legally enforced segregation, which had ended 3-4 years earlier. I'm not necessarily opposed to some kind of analogous process federally in the USA, but who would such a commission hear from, since any allowed segregation or racial discrimination in hiring, gathering, commerce, and employment ended with the civil rights act (1964) or Fair Housing Act (1968), 52 and 56 years ago respectively, a span longer than Appomattox to Versaille. I'm not saying personal racism or casual illegal discrimination did not continue, but that wasn't the subject of national Truth and Reconciliation commissions. Nobody who was in the federal government prior to those bills is still serving, almost none are even alive. Would the commission you envision be more academic/historical/researching in nature? Do you expect it would uncover information as-yet unknown about the era of Jim Crow, which would prove beneficial to Black americans? Again, I'm open to this scenario but I'm curious what new knowledge you hope such a commission would produce and how such production would be used to benefit folks today.

Gladly... The idea that Kaepernick was kneeling to protest the flag at the beginning and then shifted it... that is an outright falsehood. From day 1 of him kneeling it was about inequality at the hands of the police.

What saddens me is the whataboutisms used to attack BLM. An unarmed white woman is killed by a police officer in Minneapolis... and BLM didn't protest enough? Oh and the effort to point out the cop was black. What saddens me is the idea that gee Europe is racist... Africa is racist (again need to make sure we include POC) and acting like we are somehow better... we aren't. We have white people with their long guns lining the sides of a protest march trying to intimidate BLM and others out to protest. We aren't better... we are the same or worse than many countries. Heck, we still have Jim Crow on the books and when a state fixes them... governors refuse to enforce them (removing voting rights of felons who have served their time and have been released). If you don't think that is a Jim Crow law... look it up. The idea that the rioter are in the protests themselves... most of the rioting is happening AFTER the protests are over... in NYC more often than not it is not anywhere near where protests are taking place. But to tie the two together is a nice easy way to blame BLM. Speaking of BLM... I am actually shocked that to this point we haven't heard All lives matter... well of course they do... just the way our society functions right now... black peoples matter less and continue to matter less.

Take that for what it is. I am done with this thread on my side. But I will say that all this thread did was solidify my opinion that nothing will ever change and this is just another one that will go by the wayside... like they always do... It is what America does. We feign outrage and do nothing. THAT is what truly makes me sad. I am done with this thread. I disagree with the idea that it should be moved... because that is part and parcel of how we as a society deal with this type of thing. Make it go away. It has everything to do with basketball... it has to do with Zags basketball (Mr. Dower and Mr. Suggs are two very notable people from the area). I'd like to say I will read more of this thread, but not sure I will.

LongIslandZagFan
06-05-2020, 04:53 AM
See, this kind of crass political pandering does not help the cause. Biden's "Deplorables" moment. Shameful and dumb. That's 50 million people.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/04/us/politics/joe-biden-not-good-people.html

Yeah... IMHO... 15% is too low.

Bogozags
06-05-2020, 05:14 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LoH_iBYpOY

willandi - This is probably the best description of BLM and for those that don't understand that should re-watch this wonderful video you found...THANK YOU for dotting the "i's" and crossing the "t's"...

Bogozags
06-05-2020, 05:26 AM
Gladly... The idea that Kaepernick was kneeling to protest the flag at the beginning and then shifted it... that is an outright falsehood. From day 1 of him kneeling it was about inequality at the hands of the police.

What saddens me is the whataboutisms used to attack BLM. An unarmed white woman is killed by a police officer in Minneapolis... and BLM didn't protest enough? Oh and the effort to point out the cop was black. What saddens me is the idea that gee Europe is racist... Africa is racist (again need to make sure we include POC) and acting like we are somehow better... we aren't. We have white people with their long guns lining the sides of a protest march trying to intimidate BLM and others out to protest. We aren't better... we are the same or worse than many countries. Heck, we still have Jim Crow on the books and when a state fixes them... governors refuse to enforce them (removing voting rights of felons who have served their time and have been released). If you don't think that is a Jim Crow law... look it up. The idea that the rioter are in the protests themselves... most of the rioting is happening AFTER the protests are over... in NYC more often than not it is not anywhere near where protests are taking place. But to tie the two together is a nice easy way to blame BLM. Speaking of BLM... I am actually shocked that to this point we haven't heard All lives matter... well of course they do... just the way our society functions right now... black peoples matter less and continue to matter less.

Take that for what it is. I am done with this thread on my side. But I will say that all this thread did was solidify my opinion that nothing will ever change and this is just another one that will go by the wayside... like they always do... It is what America does. We feign outrage and do nothing. THAT is what truly makes me sad. I am done with this thread. I disagree with the idea that it should be moved... because that is part and parcel of how we as a society deal with this type of thing. Make it go away. It has everything to do with basketball... it has to do with Zags basketball (Mr. Dower and Mr. Suggs are two very notable people from the area). I'd like to say I will read more of this thread, but not sure I will.

LIZT - Very succient and THANKS for taking the time to clarify...have a GREAT weekend!

jazzdelmar
06-05-2020, 05:29 AM
Yeah... IMHO... 15% is too low.

Speak for yourself, Guyland :D

JPtheBeasta
06-05-2020, 06:06 AM
Gladly... The idea that Kaepernick was kneeling to protest the flag at the beginning and then shifted it... that is an outright falsehood. From day 1 of him kneeling it was about inequality at the hands of the police.



From day 1 the persons who didn't like his protest felt that way because it disrespected the flag (and what it stood for).

tinfoilzag
06-05-2020, 07:11 AM
White privilege is a thing.

Systematic racism is a thing.

Again, until the United States follows other countries leads in looking towards Truth and Reconciliation, and then actively works towards achieving the end goals of fixing the still lingering effects of a societal structure built on racism and white privilege. These protests will continue, as they should.

This is a reboot of the ol' doctrine of indulgences scheme where the priests decide who is a sinner and you have to pay for forgiveness and the sins of your father.

I share Martin Luther King's dream "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

This thread seemed too civil, I'd thought I'd bring the Protestant Reformation into it. :p

Kong-Kool-Aid
06-05-2020, 07:14 AM
Kong-Kool-Aid - You've twice suggested the USA federally conduct some kind of process modeled on the Truth and Reconciliation commission in South Africa from 1996, which of course sought to hear from citizens and government officials who had oppressed them under their legally enforced segregation, which had ended 3-4 years earlier. I'm not necessarily opposed to some kind of analogous process federally in the USA, but who would such a commission hear from, since any allowed segregation or racial discrimination in hiring, gathering, commerce, and employment ended with the civil rights act (1964) or Fair Housing Act (1968), 52 and 56 years ago respectively, a span longer than Appomattox to Versaille. I'm not saying personal racism or casual illegal discrimination did not continue, but that wasn't the subject of national Truth and Reconciliation commissions. Nobody who was in the federal government prior to those bills is still serving, almost none are even alive. Would the commission you envision be more academic/historical/researching in nature? Do you expect it would uncover information as-yet unknown about the era of Jim Crow, which would prove beneficial to Black americans? Again, I'm open to this scenario but I'm curious what new knowledge you hope such a commission would produce and how such production would be used to benefit folks today.

Actually, I'd like to see something modeled after the Canadian model, which has grown from what was done in South Africa. You don't have to only speak to people who were in alive during times of segregation, but leaders in oppressed communities now, and how the lingering effects of slavery, segregation, and systematic racism effects them and their communities now. Yes it should look towards righting the wrongs of the past, but it should also look at the real and lasting impacts on the black community today. How can the government begin to help the community, how can we as a whole country eliminate the inequalities that exist.

The TCR in Canada came up with 94 calls to action which the government is expected to follow through with in order to move towards fixing some of these issues. I won't list them here because it's a different country and a different situation (historically speaking), but the systematic racism and oppression exists in both countries. The commission focused on broad areas such as Child Welfare, Education, Health, Culture, Justice Rights, Equity for Aboriginal people in the legal system, and so forth.

Ultimately the government and the people need to acknowledge that the system is broken right now and it is up to everyone to change. The government needs to lead that change.

Kong-Kool-Aid
06-05-2020, 07:44 AM
This is a reboot of the ol' doctrine of indulgences scheme where the priests decide who is a sinner and you have to pay for forgiveness and the sins of your father.

I share Martin Luther King's dream "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

This thread seemed too civil, I'd thought I'd bring the Protestant Reformation into it. :p

As MLK also said:
"We cannot have an enlightened democracy with one great group living in ignorance."
"We cannot be truly Christian people so long as we flaunt the central teachings of Jesus: brotherly love and the Golden Rule. We cannot come to full prosperity with one great group so ill-delayed that it cannot buy goods. So as we gird ourselves to defend democracy from foreign attack, let us see to it that increasingly at home we give fair play and free opportunity for all people."

"First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Councilor or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to ‘order’ than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: ‘I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action’; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a ‘more convenient season.’ Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will.”

I find it ironic that you share in MLKs thoughts but seem not to be willing to sacrifice to achieve it. How you question whether it's right to pay for the sins of your fathers, but not question whether it's right to benefit from the sins of your fathers.

sonuvazag
06-05-2020, 07:52 AM
From day 1 the persons who didn't like his protest felt that way because it disrespected the flag (and what it stood for).

Which is why he took the advice of a former green beret and started kneeling instead of sitting as a compromise. And, yes, in his first public comments to explain his actions, he mentioned police brutality.

https://www.npr.org/2018/09/09/646115651/the-veteran-and-nfl-player-who-advised-kaepernick-to-take-a-knee

jazzdelmar
06-05-2020, 07:57 AM
One could reasonably make the case that kneeling in silence is even more reverential than standing. Kap needed a good p.r. person.

jazzdelmar
06-05-2020, 08:00 AM
This is a reboot of the ol' doctrine of indulgences scheme where the priests decide who is a sinner and you have to pay for forgiveness and the sins of your father.

I share Martin Luther King's dream "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

This thread seemed too civil, I'd thought I'd bring the Protestant Reformation into it. :p

Sorry, Tin. No more room on the wall.

LongIslandZagFan
06-05-2020, 08:03 AM
From day 1 the persons who didn't like his protest felt that way because it disrespected the flag (and what it stood for).

and you get that, for him, it didn't feel that it stood for him anymore as a black man? JMHO... That shouldn't make you angry at him. It should make you made that he is made to feel that way.

tinfoilzag
06-05-2020, 08:07 AM
I find it ironic that you share in MLKs thoughts but seem not to be willing to sacrifice to achieve it. How you question whether it's right to pay for the sins of your fathers, but not question whether it's right to benefit from the sins of your fathers.

Sacrifice to who? God has already sacrificed for our sins. I will not accept a debt that is assigned to me without choice.

Justice is based on an agreement between reasonable parties on what is fair. Demanding concessions under threat of violence is extortion.

sonuvazag
06-05-2020, 08:11 AM
and you get that, for him, it didn't feel that it stood for him anymore as a black man? JMHO... That shouldn't make you angry at him. It should make you made that he is made to feel that way.

That's almost exactly what Boyer said in the article I linked earlier:

I don't think people should stand with pride for something that they don't believe in, period. I just don't think that. I think if you don't feel that way, then let's fix it. Let's work together to make this situation better. Because I want you to want to stand. I want you to want to feel that same type of pride that I feel.

Kong-Kool-Aid
06-05-2020, 08:18 AM
Sacrifice to who? God has already sacrificed for our sins. I will not accept a debt that is assigned to me without choice.

Justice is based on an agreement between reasonable parties on what is fair. Demanding concessions under threat of violence is extortion.

Pretty simple really, acknowledge your privilege, be willing to let go of that privilege to allow others the same opportunities.

tinfoilzag
06-05-2020, 08:34 AM
Pretty simple really, acknowledge your privilege, be willing to let go of that privilege to allow others the same opportunities.

Your statement appears to be based on a false premise: That one person's opportunity comes at the cost of some other's opportunity. There is no set amount of opportunity (or wealth for that matter). Opportunity can be created and destroyed and there is no set limit to it.

As for "acknowledge your privilege", that's also known as contrition and I'll keep that between me and God.

sonuvazag
06-05-2020, 09:10 AM
Your statement appears to be based on a false premise: That one person's opportunity comes at the cost of some other's opportunity. There is no set amount of opportunity (or wealth for that matter). Opportunity can be created and destroyed and there is no set limit to it.

As for "acknowledge your privilege", that's also known as contrition and I'll keep that between me and God.

Those that want you to "acknowledge your privilege" are not necessarily looking for you to be contrite so much as to be aware of how your experience and point of view are shaped by your social position.

zagdontzig
06-05-2020, 09:16 AM
Here are some of Coach Few's thoughts on the issue:

"Like many of you, I am sickened and appalled of what happened to George Floyd and unfortunately too many others over the years," he said. "There's been a long history of racial injustice that is sadly still a part of our current reality."

Few said canceling team activities on Election Day will help players understand the significance of the day.

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/29263914/gonzaga-mark-cancel-all-team-activities-election-day-wants-other-coaches-join-him

tinfoilzag
06-05-2020, 09:24 AM
Those that want you to "acknowledge your privilege" are not necessarily looking for you to be contrite so much as to be aware of how your experience and point of view are shaped by your social position.

I know that's what is said but that's a class argument. If the ask is "know thyself", I'm down. It's good advice for everyone. If the ask is "because you are white, you should feel bad and you owe me", there's a problem.

TexasZagFan
06-05-2020, 10:05 AM
To me, and it is just my opinion, the first place to start is to identify those LEO that are members of hate groups. It probably would not be legal to fire them because they do have a right to join them, but their duties can be limited to fields where they are least likely to have a detrimental effect. Some, like the Police chief in Minneapolis, need to be dealt with some how and some way. There are many in the community that have identified him as racist. But not JUST racist cops. Those cops that have been accused of excessive force, and more. Start by identifying the problem ones and work harder to ensure that new hires don't come in with those attitudes, and make the ones that cause problems be accountable.

The second idea, and again it's mine, would be to have school districts start building new schools in the inner city neighborhoods that propagate much of the problem kids. Build state of the art, the best of the best, the best teachers...good enough that white kids want to transfer in to take advantage of the benefits. Sadly, there would also need to be security measures built in, to protect the school and the students against all that don't want the success. Many Black students have described how they have had to hide their accomplishments because of pressure from the hood.
If the neighborhood can be improved from the inside, not just slum apartment buildings, but by educating the people there so they can lift themselves up, it would be another start.

There is no one answer to eradicating racism. Those two ideas are mine as a place to start. Please feel free to present your own.

Great ideas, will. This thread has been making me reflect more, to seek to be more open minded on the path forward.

TexasZagFan
06-05-2020, 10:07 AM
Wishing Mom & baby well, TZF.

Thanks 50! Granddaughter arrived at 11:50 last night, 5 pounds, 4 ounces (3 weeks early). Mom and baby are doing great...don't know about Dad, though...lol. She's their first child, and he's coming to grips with how his life will change...for the better, of course.

TexasZagFan
06-05-2020, 10:15 AM
See, this kind of crass political pandering does not help the cause. Biden's "Deplorables" moment. Shameful and dumb. That's 50 million people.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/04/us/politics/joe-biden-not-good-people.html

WTF does that mean, and he needs to be more specific. Couldn't the Democrats come up with a better candidate? There has to be a few Democrats out there that I could vote for in November. My first two votes went to McGovern and Carter, both served in the military BTW. I didn't vote for Trump in 2016, either.

Kong-Kool-Aid
06-05-2020, 10:15 AM
I know that's what is said but that's a class argument. If the ask is "know thyself", I'm down. It's good advice for everyone. If the ask is "because you are white, you should feel bad and you owe me", there's a problem.

Because you are white you are afforded privileges and opportunities that those who are black do not enjoy to the same degree. Acknowledge that and the question becomes, do you think this is something that should change?

zagdontzig
06-05-2020, 10:17 AM
I know that's what is said but that's a class argument. If the ask is "know thyself", I'm down. It's good advice for everyone. If the ask is "because you are white, you should feel bad and you owe me", there's a problem.

I think the "ask" is if you're human, you should feel compelled to unite against racial injustice. The "not my problem" mindset is what's troubling.

TexasZagFan
06-05-2020, 10:20 AM
Yeah... IMHO... 15% is too low.

Explain and clarify, please. I completely disagree with you. I think that number is much lower...heavens, we have upwards of 50 million "bad people" in the United States. My anecdotal life experiences do not support that. Don't leave the thread LIZF, we are engaging each other in an open forum, without the filters imposed on us by the extremes from the left and right.

Let's keep the discussion going...please!

TexasZagFan
06-05-2020, 10:24 AM
This is a reboot of the ol' doctrine of indulgences scheme where the priests decide who is a sinner and you have to pay for forgiveness and the sins of your father.

I share Martin Luther King's dream "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

This thread seemed too civil, I'd thought I'd bring the Protestant Reformation into it. :p

I'm old enough, but not yet too feeble minded, to remember seeing Dr. King's speech live on TV. Even at the tender age of 9, his words resonated with me. How I long for everyone to be judged by the content of the character. Unfortunately, I've seen too little of that since I left the Army 36 years ago.

TexasZagFan
06-05-2020, 10:37 AM
Because you are white you are afforded privileges and opportunities that those who are black do not enjoy to the same degree. Acknowledge that and the question becomes, do you think this is something that should change?

Allow me a slight edit:

Because you are wealthy, you are afforded privileges and opportunities than those who are not wealthy who do not enjoy to the same degree. Acknowledge that and the question becomes, do you think this is something that should change?

What would you really expect me to do, Kong? My children are 50% Hispanic, and my grandson (a 9 YO 25% Hispanic) attends a school whose demographics start at 80% South Asian. My wife and I have built a good life for ourselves, comfortable but hardly wealthy. If you're looking me to genuflect and apologize to Antifa and Black Lives Matter, that is simply a nonstarter.

For all of their passion, professional athletes aren't seeking to bring people to their cause, not with their "my way or the highway" tactics, which IMHO you presume to endorse.

I'm willing to continue to engage you in conversation, but that's my reality and my truth.

LongIslandZagFan
06-05-2020, 10:45 AM
Explain and clarify, please. I completely disagree with you. I think that number is much lower...heavens, we have upwards of 50 million "bad people" in the United States. My anecdotal life experiences do not support that. Don't leave the thread LIZF, we are engaging each other in an open forum, without the filters imposed on us by the extremes from the left and right.

Let's keep the discussion going...please!

Outright racists would qualify right off the bat... back on a 2006 poll 13% of whites said they considered themselves racially biased (I would read that as racist as I don't see how you could not)

Add in violent criminals, drug dealers, domestic abusers, child abusers, child molesters, and similar... I am SURE you can get to over 15%.

Kong-Kool-Aid
06-05-2020, 10:47 AM
Allow me a slight edit:

Because you are wealthy, you are afforded privileges and opportunities than those who are not wealthy who do not enjoy to the same degree. Acknowledge that and the question becomes, do you think this is something that should change?

What would you really expect me to do, Kong? My children are 50% Hispanic, and my grandson (a 9 YO 25% Hispanic) attends a school whose demographics start at 80% South Asian. My wife and I have built a good life for ourselves, comfortable but hardly wealthy. If you're looking me to genuflect and apologize to Antifa and Black Lives Matter, that is simply a nonstarter.

For all of their passion, professional athletes aren't seeking to bring people to their cause, not with their "my way or the highway" tactics, which IMHO you presume to endorse.

I'm willing to continue to engage you in conversation, but that's my reality and my truth.

I'm going to quote Dr. King again because it is appropriate today as it was then. I really hope people read it.

"The new phase is a struggle for genuine equality. It is not merely a struggle for decency now, it is not merely a struggle to get rid of the brutality of a Bull Connor and a Jim Clark. It is now a struggle for genuine equality on all levels, and this will be a much more difficult struggle. You see, the gains in the first period, or the first era of struggle, were obtained from the power structure at bargain rates; it didn’t cost the nation anything to integrate lunch counters. It didn’t cost the nation anything to integrate hotels and motels. It didn’t cost the nation a penny to guarantee the right to vote. Now we are in a period where it will cost the nation billions of dollars to get rid of poverty, to get rid of slums, to make quality integrated education a reality. This is where we are now. Now we’re going to lose some friends in this period. The allies who were with us in Selma will not all stay with us during this period. We’ve got to understand what is happening. Now they often call this the white backlash … It’s just a new name for an old phenomenon. The fact is that there has never been any single, solid, determined commitment on the part of the vast majority of white Americans to genuine equality for Negroes. "

"There has always been ambivalence … In 1863 the Negro was granted freedom from physical slavery through the Emancipation Proclamation. But he was not given land to make that freedom meaningful. At the same time, our government was giving away millions of acres of land in the Midwest and the West, which meant that the nation was willing to undergird its white peasants from Europe with an economic floor, while refusing to do it for its black peasants from Africa who were held in slavery two hundred and forty four years. And this is why Frederick Douglass would say that emancipation for the Negro was freedom to hunger, freedom to the winds and rains of heaven, freedom without roofs to cover their heads. It was freedom without bread to eat, without land to cultivate. It was freedom and famine at the same time. And it is a miracle that the Negro has survived."

"The second evil that I want to deal with is the evil of poverty. Like a monstrous octopus it spreads its nagging prehensile tentacles into cities and hamlets and villages all over our nation. Some forty million of our brothers and sisters are poverty stricken, unable to gain the basic necessities of life. And so often we allow them to become invisible because our society’s so affluent that we don’t see the poor. Some of them are Mexican Americans. Some of them are Indians. Some are Puerto Ricans. Some are Appalachian whites. The vast majority are Negroes in proportion to their size in the population … Now there is nothing new about poverty. It’s been with us for years and centuries. What is new at this point though, is that we now have the resources, we now have the skills, we now have the techniques to get rid of poverty. And the question is whether our nation has the will …"

The opportunities you are afforded to BE wealthy have a great deal to do with the color of your skin.
I'd expect anyone to listen to the reasons why the black community are calling out, be willing to lend your voice and support to that movement and acknowledge that systematic racism is a problem that needs to be dealt with. Be willing to lose some of your advantages that have come like it or not as a result of the history of the country.

LongIslandZagFan
06-05-2020, 10:49 AM
Allow me a slight edit:

Because you are wealthy, you are afforded privileges and opportunities than those who are not wealthy who do not enjoy to the same degree. Acknowledge that and the question becomes, do you think this is something that should change?

What would you really expect me to do, Kong? My children are 50% Hispanic, and my grandson (a 9 YO 25% Hispanic) attends a school whose demographics start at 80% South Asian. My wife and I have built a good life for ourselves, comfortable but hardly wealthy. If you're looking me to genuflect and apologize to Antifa and Black Lives Matter, that is simply a nonstarter.

For all of their passion, professional athletes aren't seeking to bring people to their cause, not with their "my way or the highway" tactics, which IMHO you presume to endorse.

I'm willing to continue to engage you in conversation, but that's my reality and my truth.

White and poor are still more privileged than a black middle class man... white and poor doesn't get pulled over for being poor and white... doesn't get stopped and frisked for being poor and white... doesn't get cops called on them for being poor and white in public... that middle class black man... not living that reality at all.

Also, lumping BLM in with Antifa is disingenuous at best.

tinfoilzag
06-05-2020, 11:11 AM
Because you are white you are afforded privileges and opportunities that those who are black do not enjoy to the same degree. Acknowledge that and the question becomes, do you think this is something that should change?


I think the "ask" is if you're human, you should feel compelled to unite against racial injustice. The "not my problem" mindset is what's troubling.

I think we've identified the problem then. I have no faith in "white privilege" "implicit bias" or "social justice" and if I don't believe, I can't be saved (I'll have to live with that). There is a possible solution though.

Scientology has e-meters that can measure your thetan levels and will cleanse your static field for a fee. If we could get similar e-meters that measure injustice and privilege, we could cleanse people and give the money to non-profit organizations that fight for change or some other platitude.

All snark aside, I'm glad this board will let people disagree. I don't think anyone's mind will change but if we are talking, we aren't fighting. Go Zags.

Kong-Kool-Aid
06-05-2020, 11:14 AM
Why include the snark to begin with in a civil discussion?

If you don't believe there is such thing as white privilege, you are part of the problem. But at least you are happy to live with that.

Zags11
06-05-2020, 11:20 AM
White and poor are still more privileged than a black middle class man... white and poor doesn't get pulled over for being poor and white... doesn't get stopped and frisked for being poor and white... doesn't get cops called on them for being poor and white in public... that middle class black man... not living that reality at all.

Also, lumping BLM in with Antifa is disingenuous at best.

I got pulled over 2 to 3 times a week in my broken down car. I got told to take my contact out liz. They saw my broken down car and would pull me over. This happened for a year straight until i could afford a non broken down looking car. So i will disagree on white and poor. The rest i agree

tinfoilzag
06-05-2020, 11:24 AM
Why include the snark to begin with in a civil discussion?

If you don't believe there is such thing as white privilege, you are part of the problem. But at least you are happy to live with that.

Sorry just trying to add some levity.

jsnider
06-05-2020, 11:36 AM
The name on this thread is Gonzaga Basketball and Race. Where we might not all agree on the "Race" part, I think there are valid points by many of you. Where I do think we all agree on the "Gonzaga Basketball" part of it is - We all truly love our Zags!!!!!!

MDABE80
06-05-2020, 11:45 AM
Why include the snark to begin with in a civil discussion?

------->If you don't believe there is such thing as white privilege, you are part of the problem.<---- But at least you are happy to live with that.

Says who? Sounds like logic gone array......

willandi
06-05-2020, 11:56 AM
Great ideas, will. This thread has been making me reflect more, to seek to be more open minded on the path forward.

Thank you. I am still hoping that those that feel they have identified the problem, chime in with their ideas to improve.
We can't just say racism is against the law. That won't work. It has to start at the bottom and educate all people on how to improve, and it will take time. In my opinion, of course.

willandi
06-05-2020, 11:59 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LoH_iBYpOY


willandi - This is probably the best description of BLM and for those that don't understand that should re-watch this wonderful video you found...THANK YOU for dotting the "i's" and crossing the "t's"...

Thanks. I first heard it driving to work on the Danny and Gallant show, 1510 ESPN. I thought it really hit home, so sought the clip to share here and on Facebook.

Zag1203
06-05-2020, 12:07 PM
For any of you who are interested in gathering more information on the unfamiliar experiences that black people (specifically black college basketball coaches) experience in this country, I highly recommend listening to the CBS Eye on College Sports Podcast. Here is a description of the podcast episode titled "How the killing of George Floyd and the Black Lives Matter protests have created a positive stir for change in college basketball":

"Today's podcast focuses on the conversations Gary Parrish and Matt Norlander have had with coaches and players in college basketball this week. They touch on first-hand accounts from black coaches and the systemic racism they've encountered at the hands of law enforcement in the past. Parrish wrote this week about Rhode Island coach David Cox. In New Mexico, a team came together to protest peacefully. Norlander at one point references this story, first published at CBS Sports in 2016, where coaches shared their stories of encounters with law enforcement. There is also a movement afoot, sparked by Georgia Tech assistant Eric Reveno (31:00), who tweeted earlier this week that the NCAA should make November's Election Day a mandatory day off for all of college athletics in order to afford players and coaches alike the opportunity and time to vote"


https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/cbssportscom-eye-on-college-basketball-podcast


I feel like it provides some valuable insight into the racial issues in our country and how multimillionaire black coaches, players, and ADs are not immune from that. The end of the episode also brings up Mark Few and his complete support for making election day an NCAA mandated day off for athletes and staffs (whether they actually decide to vote or not).

Zags11
06-05-2020, 12:12 PM
My black friend had his two brothers in his car in airway heights. He got pulled over for no reason and all ordered out of the car. They frisked him and his brothers and then let him go back in the car. The cops saw a nunchuck in floor of car and they arrested all 3 for having a dangerous weapon. They were all released the following day.


I wouldnt of been arrested. I would of been told to go home and leave that at home.

LongIslandZagFan
06-05-2020, 12:51 PM
I got pulled over 2 to 3 times a week in my broken down car. I got told to take my contact out liz. They saw my broken down car and would pull me over. This happened for a year straight until i could afford a non broken down looking car. So i will disagree on white and poor. The rest i agree

Difference is... that middle class black man would be pulled over in his new car as opposed to you being pulled over for a potential safety hazard.

zagdontzig
06-05-2020, 01:12 PM
I think we've identified the problem then. I have no faith in "white privilege" "implicit bias" or "social justice" and if I don't believe, I can't be saved (I'll have to live with that). There is a possible solution though.

Scientology has e-meters that can measure your thetan levels and will cleanse your static field for a fee. If we could get similar e-meters that measure injustice and privilege, we could cleanse people and give the money to non-profit organizations that fight for change or some other platitude.

All snark aside, I'm glad this board will let people disagree. I don't think anyone's mind will change but if we are talking, we aren't fighting. Go Zags.

It's unremarkable for a white person to refuse to acknowledge white privilege. While not prejudice in itself, it is willful blindness. It's white people who do acknowledge it, or are at least open to trying to empathize with a position they have no experiential basis in who are moving society towards equality.

As a light-skinned, middle-eastern male, I experience glimpses of both worlds depending on how people perceive me; I experience occasional weird moments that I are explicitly attributed to my vague ethnicity (I had a French woman ask me if I was American because I cut the line to join some friends and Americans don't do that, apparently), but I also enjoy broad privilege as a white male, when I am perceived as such. I am grateful that I don't experience anything past weird moments, such as regular, life-threatening hatred because of my skin tone, and see that prejudice widespread in our country.

tinfoilzag
06-05-2020, 03:43 PM
It's unremarkable for a white person to refuse to acknowledge white privilege. While not prejudice in itself, it is willful blindness. It's white people who do acknowledge it, or are at least open to trying to empathize with a position they have no experiential basis in who are moving society towards equality.

As a light-skinned, middle-eastern male, I experience glimpses of both worlds depending on how people perceive me; I experience occasional weird moments that I are explicitly attributed to my vague ethnicity (I had a French woman ask me if I was American because I cut the line to join some friends and Americans don't do that, apparently), but I also enjoy broad privilege as a white male, when I am perceived as such. I am grateful that I don't experience anything past weird moments, such as regular, life-threatening hatred because of my skin tone, and see that prejudice widespread in our country.

It's unremarkable in history to scapegoat a prosperous middle class . This happened to the Kulak's in Russia, more recently to the Boer's in South Africa. Collectivists don't know how to raise people out of poverty so they have to bring everyone else down so there can be "equality". It never turns out well.

I can't believe the woke position right now it to condemn a group based solely on race with the term "White privilege". Too much irony.

JPtheBeasta
06-05-2020, 03:43 PM
Pretty simple really, acknowledge your privilege, be willing to let go of that privilege to allow others the same opportunities.

What does it mean to let go of your privilege?

MDABE80
06-05-2020, 04:31 PM
What does it mean to let go of your privilege?

😆 l Lololol Its cultural and nebulous.

willandi
06-05-2020, 04:32 PM
It's unremarkable in history to scapegoat a prosperous middle class . This happened to the Kulak's in Russia, more recently to the Boer's in South Africa. Collectivists don't know how to raise people out of poverty so they have to bring everyone else down so there can be "equality". It never turns out well.

I can't believe the woke position right now it to condemn a group based solely on race with the term "White privilege". Too much irony.

The reason the middle class and the poor are here is because the guy that takes 99 out of 100 cookies is pitting the other two against each other.
The concentration of wealth at the top, the shipping of jobs overseas to be done less expensively, the keeping the minimum wage below a livable wage, only to have more for oneself, is where the problem is.

Trickle down doesn't. It never has and it never will/

JPtheBeasta
06-05-2020, 05:16 PM
😆 l Lololol Its cultural and nebulous.

Nebulous is a good word. I’m not singling out anyone here but it is hard for me to figure out what is being asked of me on these issues of police brutality and systemic racism issue. I feel that I worked very hard to be where I am and feel more privileged to be born in America to loving parents who stayed together and provided for my basic needs. I do not take that for granted. I also don’t take for granted the example they showed, as they both went to college and were good moral examples (in my opinion). They taught me not to be a respector of persons, and for a number of reasons. I am thankful that I was born with average to above average intelligence— although I respect anyone’s opinion to think otherwise. I was born into a situation to have a chance to succeed that many other persons don’t. I do feel privileged for so many reasons, but race is at the bottom of that list.

sonuvazag
06-05-2020, 05:50 PM
Police brutality is an emotional issue that black Americans understand on a gut level and it has seemed to me that many who have tried to parse the actual disparities with data have found it difficult. The simplest advice would be to listen to what the majority of black Americans have to say and trust that it is not all some imagined media phenomenon.

However, if you still doubt there is such thing as racial inequity in the U.S., consider marijuana possession arrests, something less dangerous and therefore less emotionally charged. We know from data that black Americans use and possess marijuana at about the same rate as the rest of Americans, but are 3.64 times more likely than white people to be arrested for marijuana possession (https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/new-aclu-report-despite-marijuana-legalization-black-people-still-almost-four-times).

Although it doesn't resonate the same way emotionally for black people whose urgent concern is to let the rest of the country know that they don't feel as safe or protected by police as they would like, I find it a helpful point to make in a forum like this because the marijuana data is so blatent in presenting a systemic racial disparity. If the stats in one area are so overwhelming, is it really that outrageous to believe police are propagating the same inequities in other aspects of their work?

What does it mean to let go of your white privilege? Yes, it's pretty nebulous, but for me, it means to acknowledge the racial inequity in this country is not imaginary, to be bothered by it as if it were your own family's welfare being threatened by police, and to take some sort of action that will help to make the injustice end.

If you can't be bothered to believe there's a problem in the first place, of course you're going to think this is all much ado about nothing.

zagdontzig
06-05-2020, 07:38 PM
It's unremarkable in history to scapegoat a prosperous middle class . This happened to the Kulak's in Russia, more recently to the Boer's in South Africa. Collectivists don't know how to raise people out of poverty so they have to bring everyone else down so there can be "equality". It never turns out well.

I can't believe the woke position right now it to condemn a group based solely on race with the term "White privilege". Too much irony.

I never condemned the middle class. In fact, I’m not arguing for or against a class of people. I’m arguing for people to consider the nuance of the individual experiences of people you can’t experience. You should only feel condemned if you’re not willing to acknowledge a wrong that you’ve never experienced. I am a member of the middle class, but that doesn’t mean I can’t try to understand others perspectives.

Zags11
06-05-2020, 08:19 PM
Difference is... that middle class black man would be pulled over in his new car as opposed to you being pulled over for a potential safety hazard.

We serious bro? Lol. My car wasnt a hazard. I was profiled. Was i racially profiled? Probably not. Was i profiled for vehicle and hoping i had no insurance and what not? Yes i was.

MDABE80
06-05-2020, 08:30 PM
LIZ is being conjectural. Remember fellas it isn’t correct or accurate just because somebody says it.

MickMick
06-05-2020, 09:51 PM
This thread is making me ill.

As a man that once swore an oath to defend our constitution and served with distinction, I find it difficult to even rise for the national anthem anymore. This "representative" government has not aligned with my ethical expectations for a very long time and it has never been worse than it is right now.

I have never been more ashamed of my once beloved nation and the symbolic flag waving in the face of constitutional crisis is rich. Very, very rich. We are politically polarized into a downward spiral and my eyes are seeing videos of various and diverse topics that do not align with the political narratives. The polarization has gotten that bad. It is all about the political narratives. Not what my eyes are showing me. Just sickening.

MDABE80
06-05-2020, 10:52 PM
I agree with some Mick. The media is selling it’s preferred version and it’s not what I see with my own eyes.its like the nation is being gaslighted.

Zag1203
06-06-2020, 12:04 AM
I agree with some Mick. The media is selling it’s preferred version and it’s not what I see with my own eyes.its like the nation is being gaslighted.

Unfortunately, we are being gaslighted. There are agitators (foreign and domestic) who want to see the nation divided and there are corporations that instill fear and panic to raise viewership numbers and revenue (24 hours cable news). We had a massive FBI investigation telling us so, but people instead politicized the living daylight out of it. It's the sad world we live in and younger generations will have to figure out how to navigate it. The best way I have found to navigate it is by using logic to authenticate what I encounter and making decisions that benefit the human dignity of myself and others (that's what Gonzaga stands for right?)

RenoZag
06-06-2020, 06:16 AM
Fr. Bryan N. Massingale is the James and Nancy Buckman Professor of Theological and Social Ethics at Fordham University in New York. He is also the Senior Ethics Fellow in Fordham’s Center for Ethics Education. Massingale is a past convener of the Black Catholic Theological Symposium and a former president of the Catholic Theological Society of America. He is the author of Racial Justice and the Catholic Church.

Fr. Massingale wrote an opinion essay published in the National Catholic Reporter on June 1, 2020, wherein he addresses the Amy Cooper incident, including this excerpt:


She knew what she was doing. And so do we. The situation is completely "legible" as my academic colleagues would say. What did she and rest of us know? Why did she act as she did?


She assumed that her lies would be more credible than his truth.
She assumed that she would have the presumption of innocence.
She assumed that he, the black man, would have a presumption of guilt.
She assumed that the police would back her up.
She assumed that her race would be an advantage, that she would be believed because she is white. (By the way, this is what we mean by white privilege).
She assumed that his race would be a burden, even an insurmountable one.
She assumed that the world should work for her and against him.
She assumed that she had the upper hand in this situation.
She assumed that she could exploit deeply ingrained white fears of black men.
She assumed that she could use these deeply ingrained white fears to keep a black man in his place.
She assumed that if he protested his innocence against her, he would be seen as "playing the race card."
She assumed that no one would accuse her of "playing the race card," because no one accuses white people of playing the race card when using race to their advantage.
She assumed that he knew that any confrontation with the police would not go well for him.
She assumed that the frame of "black rapist" versus "white damsel in distress" would be clearly understood by everyone: the police, the press and the public.
She assumed that the racial formation of white people would work in her favor.
She assumed that her knowledge of how white people view the world, and especially black men, would help her.
She assumed that a black man had no right to tell her what to do.
She assumed that the police officers would agree.
She assumed that even if the police made no arrest, that a lot of white people would take her side and believe her anyway.
She assumed that Christian Cooper could and would understand all of the above.


(And she was right. He clearly knew what was at stake, which is why he had the presence of mind to record what happened).



The entire article is here: https://www.ncronline.org/news/opinion/assumptions-white-privilege-and-what-we-can-do-about-it?fbclid=IwAR0no2FUAwmS4mlpa_mPsbQlM0RxtPmkaf62Wq I8lYlWL1NLGevcIho9hTw

It is a 10-15 minute read. I found it the most thought provoking commentary of my entire week.

Fonebone
06-06-2020, 11:06 PM
Interesting series of points


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ZagsGoZags
06-07-2020, 02:29 AM
this is one of the most polite conversations I could ever imagine, when people can hide behind anonymity, or vent, I am really impressed. The opinions of reds and blues are in here and everything in between, and we are giving and taking and sometimes soul searching and giving others credit for points they hadn't thought of.
this country would do well to copy our message board, i believe that reds and blues talking to each other is a step in the right direction, and I don't see it happen that much. race is a part of college basketball and I agree zag basketball is a shining example of how much progress can happen with all ethnicities.
congratulations to us all, in my humble opinion
go zags
please let there be a basketball season next year
what sacrifice can I offer to appease the basketball gods?

willandi
06-07-2020, 08:13 AM
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/long-painful-history-police-brutality-in-the-us-180964098/?fbclid=IwAR1N5qA1hQ2r6xr1yoonRe9MH6lQ_qLwd69o2nj9 Eh_tbw5lB0DL33-eBz8

tinfoilzag
06-07-2020, 10:48 AM
The name "Black lives matter" is a cloaked insult. It's meant to divide Americans. I'm not talking about the people in BLM, just the name.

The name implies that there is a group of people in the US that don't care about black lives. It also allows anyone arguing against any position the group takes (no matter how destructive) to be accused being against "black lives mattering". The same can be said for the name "Antifa".

From the outset, just the name makes defining and finding solutions for problems very difficult because it introduces an adversarial position before any discussion starts. It's just like the old lawyer joke, "Sir, have you quit beating your wife?". No matter how you answer the question, it frames you as being a wife beater.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names.

CB4
06-07-2020, 11:17 AM
The name "Black lives matter" is a cloaked insult. It's meant to divide Americans. I'm not talking about the people in BLM, just the name.

The name implies that there is a group of people in the US that don't care about black lives. It also allows anyone arguing against any position the group takes (no matter how destructive) to be accused being against "black lives mattering". The same can be said for the name "Antifa".

From the outset, just the name makes defining and finding solutions for problems very difficult because it introduces an adversarial position before any discussion starts. It's just like the old lawyer joke, "Sir, have you quit beating your wife?". No matter how you answer the question, it frames you as being a wife beater.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names.

There is a group of people in the USA that doesn't care about black lives. The Constitution says black lives matter equally with white and all other lives. Yet the establishment and our institutions treat them as mattering less.

In response to this reality, particularly police brutality, people protested and "black lives matter" became a repeated phrase like "no justice no peace." The movement is now called black lives matter. Within that movement there's a diverse set of views.

The phrase "black lives matter" wasn't intended to piss off well-intentioned white people who chose not to learn about the experience of black people in the USA. The phrase "all lives matter," which is true and non-controversial in it's ordinary meaning, takes away from the unique focus of this civil rights movement: it draws attention away from the root of the issue which institutional racism against African Americans.

willandi
06-07-2020, 11:30 AM
The name "Black lives matter" is a cloaked insult. It's meant to divide Americans. I'm not talking about the people in BLM, just the name.

The name implies that there is a group of people in the US that don't care about black lives. It also allows anyone arguing against any position the group takes (no matter how destructive) to be accused being against "black lives mattering". The same can be said for the name "Antifa".

From the outset, just the name makes defining and finding solutions for problems very difficult because it introduces an adversarial position before any discussion starts. It's just like the old lawyer joke, "Sir, have you quit beating your wife?". No matter how you answer the question, it frames you as being a wife beater.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names.


There is a group of people in the USA that doesn't care about black lives. The Constitution says black lives matter equally with white and all other lives. Yet the establishment and our institutions treat them as mattering less.

In response to this reality, particularly police brutality, people protested and "black lives matter" became a repeated phrase like "no justice no peace." The movement is now called black lives matter. Within that movement there's a diverse set of views.

The phrase "black lives matter" wasn't intended to piss off well-intentioned white people who chose not to learn about the experience of black people in the USA. The phrase "all lives matter," which is true and non-controversial in it's ordinary meaning, takes away from the unique focus of this civil rights movement: it draws attention away from the root of the issue which institutional racism against African Americans.

Yes. It should have been called 'Even Black Lives Matter' to ensure that the myopic understood.https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3326126450785552&set=a.138843409513888&type=3&theaterhttps://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/s960x960/101418074_3326126454118885_8790705024389873664_o.j pg?_nc_cat=1&_nc_sid=110474&_nc_ohc=QPj9JTaAEuEAX-e5DKC&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&_nc_tp=7&oh=c40d278882a1b0e79e362a5de8f46173&oe=5F0343C8

willandi
06-07-2020, 11:32 AM
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/101760107_312486349769892_5373408982452928512_n.jp g?_nc_cat=104&_nc_sid=110474&_nc_ohc=WsPEVEMYifkAX-CPUt3&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=26cbcc5628fbdec2d93c334ac0cb9f94&oe=5F0267D1

CB4
06-07-2020, 11:59 AM
This is a Gonzaga message board where we are all fans so I feel inclined to make the following statement. Before making your opinions heard, consider them on a deeper level. If it's something you'd be uncomfortable saying to Coach Daniels or Sam Dower or Mark Few or Pargo or Demetri Goodson or the African American gentleman who attends your church, it's probably a really poor view. I would think our players would be really sad to know that some of our fans really don't respect or understand what black lives matter or the black American experience is all about.

We literally love a sport that would be far worse without the African American contribution to it. I'd hope we can look beyond the love of the game to the people playing it and have appreciation and understanding about their life experiences and those of their families and friends.

willandi
06-07-2020, 12:17 PM
This is a Gonzaga message board where we are all fans so I feel inclined to make the following statement. Before making your opinions heard, consider them on a deeper level. If it's something you'd be uncomfortable saying to Coach Daniels or Sam Dower or Mark Few or Pargo or Demetri Goodson or the African American gentleman who attends your church, it's probably a really poor view. I would think our players would be really sad to know that some of our fans really don't respect or understand what black lives matter or the black American experience is all about.

We literally love a sport that would be far worse without the African American contribution to it. I'd hope we can look beyond the love of the game to the people playing it and have appreciation and understanding about their life experiences and those of their families and friends.

:000tens::cheers::000tens:

tinfoilzag
06-07-2020, 12:30 PM
This is a Gonzaga message board where we are all fans so I feel inclined to make the following statement. Before making your opinions heard, consider them on a deeper level. If it's something you'd be uncomfortable saying to Coach Daniels or Sam Dower or Mark Few or Pargo or Demetri Goodson or the African American gentleman who attends your church, it's probably a really poor view. I would think our players would be really sad to know that some of our fans really don't respect or understand what black lives matter or the black American experience is all about.

"Black lives matter" is not the same as "the black american experience". Why are all these things getting lumped together? A black person experiencing prejudice is different than a political movement.

Police brutality is an everyone problem. The police don't belong to white people.

I never said "all lives matter" and i don't have to. It's understood. I also don't have to say "black lives matter" it's understood. It a political trick to use to try to obtain the moral high ground.

No one is on the side of police brutality. No one is on the side of bigotry. Politicians don't solve problems, they exacerbate them because it benefits their position. The politics is getting people killed.

MDABE80
06-07-2020, 12:32 PM
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10220178376268446&set=a.1141280851031&type=3&eid=ARA4xrDvZnUqMgnJIZb8rwMhIs_qHViiH9-pfYy8_ImUfzrXS8QA39JGzvs4fyRre2uOM-Zw72gyfmIV


A friend of mine just posted this. While it's probably true, I think there's much more to the story than a body count. I do not know how to accept or reject what's going on.....I guess we all need to do a lot more.
In SOuth Central LA, I put up a free clininc in a largely black neighborhood. 54th and Colisseum. They call it the "jungle". Me an my fellows tried very hard to be accepted by the community. I acquired a double wide trailor and got to work with 12 other guyes who were board certified in internal medicine and family medicine. Those trailers are still there, All of us were white. Even though we came to help, we never really accepted. Not trusted in many ways. I never understood it since perhaps naively, we thought we were there as a statement as much as to do good for the community.

We have a long way to go. The whole situation doesn't seem to be working. We should be ONE. We aren't but , while the issues are many, we should be making progress. The media likes a good story and largely drives some of the culture. THis thing a few weeks ago could be easily come down to one bad policeman making a bad decision. It's gotten much bigger........driven by what? Many things....usually when a person ( cop or otherwise) kills someone, they get charged, put in jail and/or await trial. THis is what happened in the overall. This one got bigger, a scab was picked. hope things resolve.....much good awaits a solution..

Markburn1
06-07-2020, 12:44 PM
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/101760107_312486349769892_5373408982452928512_n.jp g?_nc_cat=104&_nc_sid=110474&_nc_ohc=WsPEVEMYifkAX-CPUt3&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=26cbcc5628fbdec2d93c334ac0cb9f94&oe=5F0267D1
Calling people dummies and myopic isn’t helpful,Will.

willandi
06-07-2020, 12:48 PM
Calling people dummies and myopic isn’t helpful,Will.

Sorry about the meme, that was the way I found it.

When people say the words that many say, when trying to argue against BLM, an argument that I believe borders on racism, in and of itself, the word myopic is one of the nicest I could find.

CB4
06-07-2020, 12:55 PM
"Black lives matter" is not the same as "the black american experience". Why are all these things getting lumped together? A black person experiencing prejudice is different than a political movement.

Police brutality is an everyone problem. The police don't belong to white people.

I never said "all lives matter" and i don't have to. It's understood. I also don't have to say "black lives matter" it's understood. It a political trick to use to try to obtain the moral high ground.

No one is on the side of police brutality. No one is on the side of bigotry. Politicians don't solve problems, they exacerbate them because it benefits their position. The politics is getting people killed.

Black lives matter is 100% about the black American experience, starting with the collective experience with police and law enforcement. I'd say it's a civil rights movement not a political one.

Bogozags
06-07-2020, 01:43 PM
"Black lives matter" is not the same as "the black american experience". Why are all these things getting lumped together? A black person experiencing prejudice is different than a political movement.

Police brutality is an everyone problem. The police don't belong to white people.

I never said "all lives matter" and i don't have to. It's understood. I also don't have to say "black lives matter" it's understood. It a political trick to use to try to obtain the moral high ground.

No one is on the side of police brutality. No one is on the side of bigotry. Politicians don't solve problems, they exacerbate them because it benefits their position. The politics is getting people killed.

It just appears to me that you just don’t get it and there is nothing anyone can say to help you truly understand...

At present All Lives Matter but it just appears that Black Lives Matter Less!!! It is really difficult for European Americans to understand what African Americans have to go through on a daily basis!

I find it amazing how with all the marches going on in city after city, that the police - with cameras rolling STILL are racial profiling and so many lack common sense like those two cops in Buffalo knocking down that 70+ man and then their whole unit resigned to support that total lack of common sense!!!

ZagDad84
06-07-2020, 01:48 PM
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10220178376268446&set=a.1141280851031&type=3&eid=ARA4xrDvZnUqMgnJIZb8rwMhIs_qHViiH9-pfYy8_ImUfzrXS8QA39JGzvs4fyRre2uOM-Zw72gyfmIV


A friend of mine just posted this. While it's probably true, I think there's much more to the story than a body count. I do not know how to accept or reject what's going on.....I guess we all need to do a lot more.
In SOuth Central LA, I put up a free clininc in a largely black neighborhood. 54th and Colisseum. They call it the "jungle". Me an my fellows tried very hard to be accepted by the community. I acquired a double wide trailor and got to work with 12 other guyes who were board certified in internal medicine and family medicine. Those trailers are still there, All of us were white. Even though we came to help, we never really accepted. Not trusted in many ways. I never understood it since perhaps naively, we thought we were there as a statement as much as to do good for the community.

We have a long way to go. The whole situation doesn't seem to be working. We should be ONE. We aren't but , while the issues are many, we should be making progress. The media likes a good story and largely drives some of the culture. THis thing a few weeks ago could be easily come down to one bad policeman making a bad decision. It's gotten much bigger........driven by what? Many things....usually when a person ( cop or otherwise) kills someone, they get charged, put in jail and/or await trial. THis is what happened in the overall. This one got bigger, a scab was picked. hope things resolve.....much good awaits a solution..

Thanks for posting this Abe.

I have a similar story. My wife taught in an inner city high school for over 30 years. When my wife was hired, the high school had a black student union club. The black student union was founded by a couple of African American teachers and assisted by a Hispanic teacher while my wife was tagged with being the unofficial historian (history major) for the group. The club existed for several years with the average number of members being 10-15 in any given year. After operating for several years, the school administration decided the club was too narrow focused and renamed the club "RACE" (Racial and Cultural Equality) and requested the club open up their curriculum to be more inclusive for all students.

So why did the School Administration request a change in the club? The racial issues within the school extended way beyond the African American community. Many of the immigrants brought issues from their homeland to the school; Russians vs Ukrainian's, Croatians vs Bosnians, Jewish vs Palestinians, Shiites vs Sunis, Mideastern males vs Mideastern females and so on. Having an exclusive club that did not address issues that impacted more of the school was not helpful to address the racial tensions in the school.

The African American teachers who founded the club were not happy with the changes the Administration requested and promptly resigned. The Hispanic teacher did not want to lead the club, so the administrators asked my wife to run the new group. Since a club cannot exist at the school without an administrator or teacher to run the club, she agreed to run RACE. The club expanded to include all races, religions, members of the Gay (LGBTQ today) community, genders, and so on. Activities included a variety of community service projects in various areas of the community (low income, African American, Russian, Greek, Jewish, Hispanic, Native American, Asian, ect.) to give the kids a chance to interact with members of that community which they maybe ever had a reason to do before. In class assignments would have students from one race investigating the issues of another and making a presentation to the group (i.e. African Americans investigating the issues between the Russians and Ukrainians) to expand the knowledge of the entire group.

The RACE group had yearly memberships as high as 150 students and the group won local and state awards for student groups and community service. Within the school, racial issues were virtually eliminated. The students knew they had a place they could take their disagreement and be heard in an non-judgmental setting and they did so. Numerous times a student with an issue came to my wife to get on the agenda and if it was an immediate issue, she would call an immediate meeting of the Race group to help the student.

So what happened? The same thing that happens all the time. The local school administration decided that since there were really very few racial issues now occurring within the school, they really did not need the RACE club and removed the funding for the group. You can guess what happened after the RACE group was disbanded.

Any solution that is going to work has to be inclusive of everyone.

ZagDad

Bogozags
06-07-2020, 02:00 PM
Thanks for posting this Abe.

I have a similar story. My wife taught in an inner city high school for over 30 years. When my wife was hired, the high school had a black student union club. The black student union was founded by a couple of African American teachers and assisted by a Hispanic teacher while my wife was tagged with being the unofficial historian (history major) for the group. The club existed for several years with the average number of members being 10-15 in any given year. After operating for several years, the school administration decided the club was too narrow focused and renamed the club "RACE" (Racial and Cultural Equality) and requested the club open up their curriculum to be more inclusive for all students.

So why did the School Administration request a change in the club? The racial issues within the school extended way beyond the African American community. Many of the immigrants brought issues from their homeland to the school; Russians vs Ukrainian's, Croatians vs Bosnians, Jewish vs Palestinians, Shiites vs Sunis, Mideastern males vs Mideastern females and so on. Having an exclusive club that did not address issues that impacted more of the school was not helpful to address the racial tensions in the school.

The African American teachers who founded the club were not happy with the changes the Administration requested and promptly resigned. The Hispanic teacher did not want to lead the club, so the administrators asked my wife to run the new group. Since a club cannot exist at the school with an administrator or teacher to run the club, she agreed to run RACE. The club expanded to include all races, religions, members of the Gay (LGBTQ today) community, genders, and so on. Activities included a variety of community service projects in various areas of the community (low income, African American, Russian, Greek, Jewish, Hispanic, Native American, Asian, ect.) to give the kids a chance to interact with members of that community which they maybe ever had a reason to do before. In class assignments would have students from one race investigating the issues of another and making a presentation to the group (i.e. African Americans investigating the issues between the Russians and Ukrainians) to expand the knowledge of the entire group.

The RACE group had yearly memberships as high as 150 students and the group won local and state awards for student groups and community service. Within the school, racial issues were virtually eliminated. The students knew they had a place they could take their disagreement and be heard in an non-judgmental setting and they did so. Numerous times a student with an issue came to my wife to get on the agenda and if it was an immediate issue, she would call an immediate meeting of the Race group to help the student.

So what happened? The same thing that happens all the time. The local school administration decided that since there were really very few racial issues now occurring within the school, they really did not need the RACE club and removed the funding for the group. You can guess what happened after the RACE group was disbanded.

Any solution that is going to work has to be inclusive of everyone.

ZagDad

Yes, inclusivity of all is what is needed but not sure when or even if that will happen in this generation...I’ve prayed long and hard for many years for this to come about...some progress has been made but no where enough...imo

ZagDad84
06-07-2020, 02:10 PM
It just appears to me that you just don’t get it and there is nothing anyone can say to help you truly understand...

At present All Lives Matter but it just appears that Black Lives Matter Less!!! It is really difficult for European Americans to understand what African Americans have to go through on a daily basis!

I find it amazing how with all the marches going on in city after city, that the police - with cameras rolling STILL are racial profiling and so many lack common sense like those two cops in Buffalo knocking down that 70+ man and then their whole unit resigned to support that total lack of common sense!!!

Yet the 75 year old man that was knocked down was white.

The 75 year old man initiated the confrontation, was asked to turn around several times, yet still insisted on confronting the police line. When he refuse to walk back the way he came he was pushed in the chest. Whether he fell down because of the push or fell down over his own feet (the push was not excessive) is not clear. Yes the police should not have pushed him. Just cuff him (failure to follow a police order), take him to the station and remove him from the situation. Get his info then let him go. No big deal. Dumb move by the police. On the other hand, why did the 75 year old man escalate the situation in the first place?

Personally I did not see anything I would consider excessive use of force, but to each their own.

The entire emergency police force resigned when the two Officers were suspended without pay while the police commission conducted an investigation. Could they have be placed on desk duty while the investigation was conducted? Certainly. Suspending the officers without pay was a political move and the emergency police force did not feel they had the support of the City officials, so they were not going to continue to put their lives on the line without the support of the City.

Ugly all around.

ZagDad

bballbeachbum
06-07-2020, 02:12 PM
I did not expect to see this thread Gonzaga Basketball and Race when I checked in today. I appreciate the OP and, as the issue of race does, the revealing nature of the discussion and its participators that the OP generated.

My dad was an Air Force Captain, please understand my respect for the Air Force. The below link includes statements from AF Chief of Staff David Goldfein in response to a tweet from Chief Master Seargent of the AF Kaleth Wright which you can read in the article.

Goldfein lays out clearly, in my view, the head on approach needed to confront the 'systemic' nature of discrimination and racial prejudice we're discussing. I put systemic in quotes becasue that is the word Goldfein used. Maybe you've already read this, but I found it compelling for many reasons, but mostly for the matter-of-fact nature of his blunt assessment that the AF must confront its own systemic discrimination and racial prejudice.

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2020/06/02/goldfein-every-american-should-be-outraged-at-police-conduct-in-death-of-george-floyd/


Goldfein’s follow-up memo said that Americans have to confront the awful reality of racism — and acknowledge that it also exists in the Air Force.

“Sometimes it’s explicit, sometimes it’s subtle, but we are not immune to the spectrum of racial prejudice, systemic discrimination and unconscious bias,” Goldfein wrote. “We see this in the apparent inequity in our application of military justice. We will not shy away from this; as leaders and as airmen we will own our part and confront it head on.”

“I don’t have the answers, but I do know there is no room for bigotry, hatred or small mindedness in our force,” Goldfein said. “Period. Every member of our team needs to know we have their back.”

bballbeachbum
06-07-2020, 02:17 PM
and here, Air Force general Charles Brown Jr. gives his take, just an excerpt. I found it very powerful


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NagDXVOmxNE

tinfoilzag
06-07-2020, 02:19 PM
It just appears to me that you just don’t get it and there is nothing anyone can say to help you truly understand...

At present All Lives Matter but it just appears that Black Lives Matter Less!!!

Why would you think this? Who do you know or have met or have even heard make the statement black lives matter less? I may be blind as some claim but I work all over the country and in 20 years never met a person with the opinion that black lives matter less.

I don't claim to know what it's like to be in anyone's shoes but my own.

scrooner
06-07-2020, 02:48 PM
This is a fascinating history of 'race riots' in America. Most of these are better classified as massacres, as they involve hordes of whites gunning down blacks en masse, with little or no consequences. I was shocked to see how little I knew about this part of our history.

https://twitter.com/ericabuddington/status/1266531249914601472

Here's just one example: https://www.tulsahistory.org/exhibit/1921-tulsa-race-massacre/

If you don't understand where people get the idea that we have a problem valuing black lives, there is information out there to help. Nobody is stopping you from doing your own research. I've heard that the "13th" documentary is a good place to start.

tinfoilzag
06-07-2020, 03:15 PM
This is a fascinating history of 'race riots' in America. Most of these are better classified as massacres, as they involve hordes of whites gunning down blacks en masse, with little or no consequences. I was shocked to see how little I knew about this part of our history.

https://twitter.com/ericabuddington/status/1266531249914601472

Here's just one example: https://www.tulsahistory.org/exhibit/1921-tulsa-race-massacre/

If you don't understand where people get the idea that we have a problem valuing black lives, there is information out there to help. Nobody is stopping you from doing your own research. I've heard that the "13th" documentary is a good place to start.

It was acceptable to treat others badly based on their race 50 years ago in this country. There was a civil rights movement and the country decided to stop that and wrote laws to back it up. There are many atrocities in this country's history and fortunately most of the people responsible for them are now dead. We should remember the trail of tears, Japanese internment camps, or the ones you presented but only as a lesson and not to find reasons to hate each other.

It's been my experience that bigoted stances are not tolerated social or legally in today's society (in the US).

Bing
06-07-2020, 03:23 PM
Good story with a couple of cavaets.

You forgot the part where most of the 57 officers just walked by the guy as he was laying there, bleeding profusely from his ear.

And you forgot the part where they LIED and said the victim “tripped and fell”.

Your story left those parts out.




Yet the 75 year old man that was knocked down was white.

The 75 year old man initiated the confrontation, was asked to turn around several times, yet still insisted on confronting the police line. When he refuse to walk back the way he came he was pushed in the chest. Whether he fell down because of the push or fell down over his own feet (the push was not excessive) is not clear. Yes the police should not have pushed him. Just cuff him (failure to follow a police order), take him to the station and remove him from the situation. Get his info then let him go. No big deal. Dumb move by the police. On the other hand, why did the 75 year old man escalate the situation in the first place?

Personally I did not see anything I would consider excessive use of force, but to each their own.

The entire emergency police force resigned when the two Officers were suspended without pay while the police commission conducted an investigation. Could they have be placed on desk duty while the investigation was conducted? Certainly. Suspending the officers without pay was a political move and the emergency police force did not feel they had the support of the City officials, so they were not going to continue to put their lives on the line without the support of the City.

Ugly all around.

ZagDad

scrooner
06-07-2020, 03:33 PM
It was acceptable to treat others badly based on their race 50 years ago in this country. There was a civil rights movement and the country decided to stop that and wrote laws to back it up. There are many atrocities in this country's history and fortunately most of the people responsible for them are now dead. We should remember the trail of tears, Japanese internment camps, or the ones you presented but only as a lesson and not to find reasons to hate each other.

It's been my experience that bigoted stances are not tolerated social or legally in today's society (in the US).

I'll have to assume that you next to nothing about the Ahmaud Arbery case. It's like you're participating in a class discussion without having read the book.

Markburn1
06-07-2020, 03:47 PM
I'll have to assume that you next to nothing about the Ahmaud Arbery case. It's like you're participating in a class discussion without having read the book.

There’s more than one book.

willandi
06-07-2020, 03:49 PM
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/long-painful-history-police-brutality-in-the-us-180964098/?fbclid=IwAR1N5qA1hQ2r6xr1yoonRe9MH6lQ_qLwd69o2nj9 Eh_tbw5lB0DL33-eBz8 The Long, Painful History of Police Brutality in the U.S.


I'll have to assume that you next to nothing about the Ahmaud Arbery case. It's like you're participating in a class discussion without having read the book.

The link I posted at the top of the page.

If you don't look at the ideas presented and make your counter claims based on those, one way or the other, and just on your feelings, experience or instincts, you are doing yourself and the rest of us, a disservice.

ZagDad84
06-07-2020, 03:50 PM
Good story with a couple of cavaets.

You forgot the part where most of the 57 officers just walked by the guy as he was laying there, bleeding profusely from his ear.

And you forgot the part where they LIED and said the victim “tripped and fell”.

Your story left those parts out.

Thanks for the info, was not aware of these, but it still does not significantly change the narrative.

- This was not a race issue. Both the policer officers and the victim were white.

- The 75 year old man initiated the confrontation unnecessarily.

- The police made a series of bad judgements which escalated the situation and led to the injury of the victim.

- The officers quit the special force because the felt they were not getting support from the City.

- Not providing assist to the fallen man is of course totally unacceptable. There were no other protestors around, so they had nothing to be protect themselves from.

- Of course lying about how the victim ended up on the ground is never acceptable and certainly could justify suspension without pay.

Just keep in mind, I never took a position in my post, I simply made comments on other paths the victim, the police officers on site and the City could have made (not necessarily should have made) to de-escalate the situation.

ZagDad

MDABE80
06-07-2020, 04:07 PM
Probably not a good idea for A 75 yr old to walk in from of a60 man force in riot gear going somewhere as a pack to do a mission . and then sticking your hand out and tripping backwards and falling. Looking from many angles, this oldster set himself up or trouble. Do not understand the walking past him. But somebody called the ambulance. Good on them.

ZagDad84
06-07-2020, 04:08 PM
There is a group of people in the USA that doesn't care about black lives. The Constitution says black lives matter equally with white and all other lives. Yet the establishment and our institutions treat them as mattering less.

In response to this reality, particularly police brutality, people protested and "black lives matter" became a repeated phrase like "no justice no peace." The movement is now called black lives matter. Within that movement there's a diverse set of views.

The phrase "black lives matter" wasn't intended to piss off well-intentioned white people who chose not to learn about the experience of black people in the USA. The phrase "all lives matter," which is true and non-controversial in it's ordinary meaning, takes away from the unique focus of this civil rights movement: it draws attention away from the root of the issue which institutional racism against African Americans.

Very early in the Black Lives Matter movement, in fact just after the movement announced their name, I was watching an interview with an African American Pastor (Sorry don't remember the TV program or the Pastor's name). The pastor noted that he had been involved with the BLM movement when they were discussing what to name their movement. The pastor noted that the founders of the BLM knew that the name Black Lives Matter was going to be incendiary and they knew that the "All Lives Matter" response was going to detract from their message. The issue was getting the word out and they knew that the BLM name would immediately give them great access to TV media, print media, social media etc.

Whether the Pastor was telling the truth or not I don't know but you certainly have to be impressed with the reactions they have been able to produce.

CB4, your statements above and the following statement:


Black lives matter is 100% about the black American experience, starting with the collective experience with police and law enforcement. I'd say it's a civil rights movement not a political one.

Your description of the BLM movement make the actions of the BLM over the last few weeks more understandable

Thank you for the enlightenment.

ZagDad

tinfoilzag
06-07-2020, 04:34 PM
I'll have to assume that you next to nothing about the Ahmaud Arbery case. It's like you're participating in a class discussion without having read the book.

Your standard for determining if black lives are valued is the US is 0 racially motivated deaths? There are around 330,000,000 in the US and if you think there will be a future where is doesn't happen again then I want to live in your utopia. I read about it before you brought it up and I couldn't find anyone who wrote or commented on it saying it was anything less that a horrific act. I couldn't find anyone that was fine with it. Nowhere did I see they were just going to ignore the murder.

I just read were Reche Caldwell was shot and killed at his house today during an attempted robbery. It's terrible. I fell awful for his family and I hope the prosecute the offenders to the fullest extent of the law. What i don't want is a mob to form to avenge his death. I don't want lives lost, businesses destroyed, and neighborhoods burning because this won't bring him back.

Sometimes it takes a visceral event like Floyd's death to get everyone to back change. It appears we are ready as a country for serious criminal justice reform. Rioting works against reform.

Hoopaholic
06-07-2020, 05:08 PM
Thanks for the info, was not aware of these, but it still does not significantly change the narrative.

- This was not a race issue. Both the policer officers and the victim were white.

- The 75 year old man initiated the confrontation unnecessarily.

- The police made a series of bad judgements which escalated the situation and led to the injury of the victim.

- The officers quit the special force because the felt they were not getting support from the City.

- Not providing assist to the fallen man is of course totally unacceptable. There were no other protestors around, so they had nothing to be protect themselves from.

- Of course lying about how the victim ended up on the ground is never acceptable and certainly could justify suspension without pay.

Just keep in mind, I never took a position in my post, I simply made comments on other paths the victim, the police officers on site and the City could have made (not necessarily should have made) to de-escalate the situation.

ZagDad

I have refrained from engaging but need to set
The facts straight on this incident as the media narrative is not being truthful and have edited and
Limited the video of entire situation

As a chief of
Police for 12 years,working in Los Angeles where we had protests weekly you create a squad dedicated to creating a safe zone
If the decision is made based upon the facts before you you order to move forward
Upon engagement the front lines continue forward and secondary lines have arrest teams and medics. That way an arrest and or medical care
Can be conducted in a safer process thus why a more experienced officer
Told the younger one to fall back InTo hold the line knowing next wave has arrest and
Trained medics

The police video,yes it’s standard to video tape protest and riots, shows that the third wave medics
Immediately started treatment and extricated out the back of the formation to an ambulance for care

Makes you wonder why the tv station selectively edited and released

ZagDad84
06-07-2020, 05:15 PM
I have refrained from engaging but need to set
The facts straight on this incident as the media narrative is not being truthful and have edited and
Limited the video of entire situation

As a chief of
Police for 12 years,working in Los Angeles where we had protests weekly you create a squad dedicated to creating a safe zone
If the decision is made based upon the facts before you you order to move forward
Upon engagement the front lines continue forward and secondary lines have arrest teams and medics. That way an arrest and or medical care
Can be conducted in a safer process thus why a more experienced officer
Told the younger one to fall back InTo hold the line knowing next wave has arrest and
Trained medics

The police video,yes it’s standard to video tape protest and riots, shows that the third wave medics
Immediately started treatment and extricated out the back of the formation to an ambulance for care

Makes you wonder why the tv station selectively edited and released

Thanks for the Clarification Hoopaholic.

Makes you wonder,

ZagDad

Hoopaholic
06-07-2020, 05:19 PM
Thanks for the Clarification Hoopaholic.

Makes you wonder,

ZagDad


Should add part of design of this is to allow 3 or 4 line to hold up shields to further protect arrestee or victim and officers engaged from being hit by projectiles that are a real issue and
Concern during these
Volatile incidents

As to press release if they did this
Intentionally that is wrong. But I suspect the commander in charge was near back and those treating probably made an assumption and inaccurate info was passed along. But it needs to be investigated to make sure this was not an intentional lie

CB4
06-07-2020, 05:33 PM
Should add part of design of this is to allow 3 or 4 line to hold up shields to further protect arrestee or victim and officers engaged from being hit by projectiles that are a real issue and
Concern during these
Volatile incidents

As to press release if they did this
Intentionally that is wrong. But I suspect the commander in charge was near back and those treating probably made an assumption and inaccurate info was passed along. But it needs to be investigated to make sure this was not an intentional lie

How pleased would you be with your front line cop who pushed over an old man who wasn't in an aggressive posture, causing terrible PR for the police force and forthcoming legal fees and settlement for the city, not to mention injury to the old timer or the fact that this was done during a protest premised upon boneheaded decisions by police?

I don't mean to be facetious but I assure what you're saying is 100 percent accurate, but the whole situation stinks no matter how you look at it. Probably something that they specifically talked about avoiding before they went out that day.

Hoopaholic
06-07-2020, 05:48 PM
How pleased would you be with your front line cop who pushed over an old man who wasn't in an aggressive posture, causing terrible PR for the police force and forthcoming legal fees and settlement for the city, not to mention injury to the old timer or the fact that this was done during a protest premised upon boneheaded decisions by police?

I don't mean to be facetious but I assure what you're saying is 100 percent accurate, but the whole situation stinks no matter how you look at it. Probably something that they specifically talked about avoiding before they went out that day.

The individual refused to
Follow Multiple lawful orders

The individual advanced on the officers

Age does not matter in riot situations I have been hit by a brick holding the line on i5 during Iraq war
By a lady who was 63 years old

Individual appears to reach out at the officer

It is a trained technique to extend out to make safety space

His actions deflected the ability to focus on the crowd they were sent to displace


Was not a time for discussion when as we have seen you could or are
Facing rocks,bricks, water bottles of concrete,knives,guns and other weapons

As to your comment they should have talked about engagement rules I can almost furantee not
Only talked about it but have conducted training on it

Optics for a lay person can be troubling but these situations are serious. Adrenaline is flowing and people are scared and
Nervous despite how many hours you train for this type
If incident

As to lawsuit that is always a reality no matter what the decisions are. If they had chosen to stop and allow him to remain and he got hit by a brick the city would be sued. My guess is the multiple warnings were recorded and video taped and a willful defiant person not willing to comply with multiple
Lawful orders will have a difficult time being successful. Just my opinion

bballbeachbum
06-07-2020, 06:20 PM
here's the Erie DA on his view of the Buffalo situation. Give it a listen to gain his perspective on what is happening and why the two officers have been charged. It differs with some views here so be advised :)


https://www.abc10.com/video/news/local/erie-county-district-attorneyis -discusses-charges-filed-against-2-buffalo-police-officers/71-6ff75b44-9c0d-4f23-a39d-7a68342b5a7a

here's an edited version of the above

https://abcnews.go.com/US/buffalo-police-officers-arrested-shoving-75-year-protester/story?id=71106787

scrooner
06-07-2020, 06:38 PM
Nowhere did I see they were just going to ignore the murder.

I guess you missed the part where the District Attorney told the police captain there was no grounds for arrest, and the McMichaels were roaming free for nearly two months as the case was passed to another DA who was just sitting on it, until the video went public and under immense political and public pressure the Georgia Bureau of Investigations finally took them into custody. You can be certain that if that video hadn't come out, nothing would have been done.

"The words “Equal Justice Under Law” are carved in the pediment of the United States Supreme Court. This is precisely what protesters are rightly demanding. It is a wholesome and unifying demand—one that all of us should be able to get behind. We must not be distracted by a small number of lawbreakers. The protests are defined by tens of thousands of people of conscience who are insisting that we live up to our values—our values as people and our values as a nation." - James Mattis

MDABE80
06-07-2020, 07:02 PM
I’d like to thank Hoopaholic for this series of posts. Quite eye opening.

willandi
06-07-2020, 07:08 PM
2 viruses -- COVID and racism --devastate the black community and threaten America's stability


https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/viruses-covid-racism-devastate-black-community-threaten-americas/story?id=71016538&cid=clicksource_4380645_3_mobile_web_only_headline s_headlines_hed

CB4
06-07-2020, 07:08 PM
The individual refused to
Follow Multiple lawful orders

The individual advanced on the officers

Age does not matter in riot situations I have been hit by a brick holding the line on i5 during Iraq war
By a lady who was 63 years old

Individual appears to reach out at the officer

It is a trained technique to extend out to make safety space

His actions deflected the ability to focus on the crowd they were sent to displace


Was not a time for discussion when as we have seen you could or are
Facing rocks,bricks, water bottles of concrete,knives,guns and other weapons

As to your comment they should have talked about engagement rules I can almost furantee not
Only talked about it but have conducted training on it

Optics for a lay person can be troubling but these situations are serious. Adrenaline is flowing and people are scared and
Nervous despite how many hours you train for this type
If incident

As to lawsuit that is always a reality no matter what the decisions are. If they had chosen to stop and allow him to remain and he got hit by a brick the city would be sued. My guess is the multiple warnings were recorded and video taped and a willful defiant person not willing to comply with multiple
Lawful orders will have a difficult time being successful. Just my opinion

Yeah true. The guy was a dumb ass for walking up to cops in riot gear. The guy tumbled pretty easily. The cops were visibly upset after they saw what happened. But it's just sort of a bummer to see the police push the guy when, all things considered, they probably didn't need to. I'm not calling for the guys badge or think he should be in trouble, but it's just discouraging for me as a lay person who wants to see the police be successful and get a better public perception after this whole thing is through.

tinfoilzag
06-07-2020, 08:07 PM
I guess you missed the part where the District Attorney told the police captain there was no grounds for arrest, and the McMichaels were roaming free for nearly two months as the case was passed to another DA who was just sitting on it, until the video went public and under immense political and public pressure the Georgia Bureau of Investigations finally took them into custody. You can be certain that if that video hadn't come out, nothing would have been done.

"The words “Equal Justice Under Law” are carved in the pediment of the United States Supreme Court. This is precisely what protesters are rightly demanding. It is a wholesome and unifying demand—one that all of us should be able to get behind. We must not be distracted by a small number of lawbreakers. The protests are defined by tens of thousands of people of conscience who are insisting that we live up to our values—our values as people and our values as a nation." - James Mattis

I didn't miss it at all. How could I with all the coverage. It proves my point: This isn't acceptable in the U.S.

I'm not on any side of this except that we use due process and not try cases in the court of public opinion.

Bing
06-07-2020, 08:19 PM
The individual refused to
Follow Multiple lawful orders

The individual advanced on the officers

Age does not matter in riot situations I have been hit by a brick holding the line on i5 during Iraq war
By a lady who was 63 years old

Individual appears to reach out at the officer

It is a trained technique to extend out to make safety space

His actions deflected the ability to focus on the crowd they were sent to displace


Was not a time for discussion when as we have seen you could or are
Facing rocks,bricks, water bottles of concrete,knives,guns and other weapons

As to your comment they should have talked about engagement rules I can almost furantee not
Only talked about it but have conducted training on it

Optics for a lay person can be troubling but these situations are serious. Adrenaline is flowing and people are scared and
Nervous despite how many hours you train for this type
If incident

As to lawsuit that is always a reality no matter what the decisions are. If they had chosen to stop and allow him to remain and he got hit by a brick the city would be sued. My guess is the multiple warnings were recorded and video taped and a willful defiant person not willing to comply with multiple
Lawful orders will have a difficult time being successful. Just my opinion

How lawful was the report that stated the area was cleared without incident but one man had tripped and fell?

Zag1203
06-07-2020, 08:27 PM
I didn't miss it at all. How could I with all the coverage. It proves my point: This isn't acceptable in the U.S.

I'm not on any side of this except that we use due process and not try cases in the court of public opinion.

You're right. Everyone deserves due process, and that's why everybody is so darn upset right now. George Floyd never got due process. Breona Taylor never got due process. Eric Garner never got due process. They all were killed at the hands of negligent police with little to no accountability. At a certain point when the system has failed a number of people, they feel like there is no alternative other than the court of public opinion because that's how the laws change whether we like to admit it or not.

willandi
06-07-2020, 08:46 PM
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/102882435_10218810659237054_1130390229700797640_n. jpg?_nc_cat=104&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=FRAtZQeoYgcAX94jPhe&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=b2d4c5d4bac70da4ebce7ee575e99c9d&oe=5F023F38

bigblahla
06-08-2020, 05:05 AM
My world is my world... my actions are my actions, my responsibilities are simple.... Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.... not religious but live by the teachings of Jesus the best I can.... I cannot change this world we live in but I can help make a difference in the lives of those I know... loving my family, my friends and offering a hand up to those in need that I meet... that is my world... and cheering on our Zags through thick and thin... IMO, this discussion does not belong here.... there are other forums on this site for this discussion... basketball board...

Just my opinion...

Go!! Zags!!!

scrooner
06-08-2020, 05:43 AM
Thanks willandi. Empathy is quickly becoming a lost art.

SorenTodd45
06-08-2020, 05:43 AM
Wow, it's been ages since I've been here. Anyways, I cheer for all Zags players no matter what color they are. White, Black, French, Serbian, it doesn't matter. The only colors I see are silver and blue.

Kong-Kool-Aid
06-08-2020, 06:23 AM
I just can’t comprehend that there are people who don’t feel there is racism in this country and that it is a problem.

I also can’t comprehend that there are people who feel there is no lasting effect on the black community from slavery and segregation.

I also can’t comprehend how a person cannot see there is a profound distinct difference between their experience and the experience of a black person in America.

I posted quotes on this very issue that are just as pertinent today as they were when MLK said them, I urge you to educate yourself beyond your own view.

Zagceo
06-08-2020, 06:46 AM
It is often noted how much this transition can be a major one for international players, but for a 17-year-old black teen to commit to a college where 71% of students and 85% of faculty are white takes genuine courage. I hope that Gonzaga has been and will continue to be a safe and welcoming home for all who have done so.

According to your numbers Gonzaga University does have a racial disparity issue especially among its faculty.

Thanks for sharing was unaware.

zagfan24
06-08-2020, 07:17 AM
Some additional thoughts. To start I realized when I started this thread it could become a tinder box. I tried to keep the focus on Gonzaga basketball to some extent, but obviously knew it could quickly go in other directions. I appreciate the mods keeping the thread open. This discussion is inherently uncomfortable...and that is good. Civil discourse is always good, but that isn't akin to "all opinions should be given equal value." Racist statements, whether implicit or explicit, aren't part of constructive discourse. Nor should we be trapped by fallacy to moderation, where it is assumed that the real answers lie somewhere in the middle. While keeping the thread open means being respectful of one another, IMO it does not follow that a polite conversation is, in the real world, always the helpful direction. I don't respect those who spout racist ideology, and I won't be polite and respectful if they do so.



Wow, it's been ages since I've been here. Anyways, I cheer for all Zags players no matter what color they are. White, Black, French, Serbian, it doesn't matter. The only colors I see are silver and blue.

I get your where you are coming from as it pertains to Gonzaga basketball. But the myth of colorblindness serving as the ideal is important to dispel. Recognizing that there ARE differences in the experience of black men and women in our society is important. This includes Gonzaga basketball players. Pretending that race and culture don't exist serves only to invalidate the experiences of racial and ethnic minorities.



IMO, this discussion does not belong here.... there are other forums on this site for this discussion... basketball board...Just my opinion...

Go!! Zags!!!

I respectfully disagree. I think that, as I said in my OP, race permeates every aspect of our society and every institution within it. I do wish we could have focused mainly on the topic of our players and program, but things quickly got off track.


The name "Black lives matter" is a cloaked insult. It's meant to divide Americans. I'm not talking about the people in BLM, just the name.

Again, I respectfully disagree. Black lives matter is a response not just to the numerous deaths of black individuals that involved some scale of racial prejudice and discrimination, but to large scale societal, legal, and judicial maltreatment and indifference to those deaths. In contrast, I find the "All Lives Matter" retort obnoxious at best. I've never been at a Childhood Cancer Fundraiser and heard criticism for not raising money for other diseases. I've never been at an Autism Awareness event and been vilified for not raising awareness of other developmental disabilities.


Nebulous is a good word. I’m not singling out anyone here but it is hard for me to figure out what is being asked of me on these issues of police brutality and systemic racism issue. I feel that I worked very hard to be where I am and feel more privileged to be born in America to loving parents who stayed together and provided for my basic needs. I do not take that for granted. I also don’t take for granted the example they showed, as they both went to college and were good moral examples (in my opinion). They taught me not to be a respector of persons, and for a number of reasons. I am thankful that I was born with average to above average intelligence— although I respect anyone’s opinion to think otherwise. I was born into a situation to have a chance to succeed that many other persons don’t. I do feel privileged for so many reasons, but race is at the bottom of that list.

I appreciate you sharing those thoughts JP. Like you, I have had innumerable privileges in my life. White Privilege is a tough construct because it is so often misstated as "being privileged" which is not the same thing. I understand why people thus hear the term, and having worked hard and overcome adversity quickly dismiss the entire notion. Privilege can mean both unseen advantages that your race, or gender, bring your way. But, perhaps more importantly, privilege can mean that there are barriers that don't exist that you might never think about. I strongly recommend this article: https://www.racialequitytools.org/resourcefiles/mcintosh.pdf

I'll end with this quote from Tom Herman, Texas FB coach, which I really appreciated. In bringing the topic back to GU Basketball, it's a notion worthy of consideration.

"We're going to pack 100,000 people into (the stadium) and millions watch on TV that are predominantly white -- not all of them certainly, but most of 'em white," Herman told the American-Statesman. "We're gonna cheer when they score touchdowns, and we're gonna hug our buddy when they get sacks or an interception. "But we gonna let them date our daughter? Are we going to hire them in a position of power in our company? That's the question I have for America. You can't have it both ways."

Hoopaholic
06-08-2020, 07:21 AM
How lawful was the report that stated the area was cleared without incident but one man had tripped and fell?

Addressed that several times

IF it was intentional someone needs to be held accountable as transparency, honesty, integrity and ethics are the foundation of. Trust and thus success


However, having been in fast moving critical incidents, I could also understand how the information got transmitted and when it got to a PIO it could have been manipulated not by negligence, recklessness or intent but by simple human error (think the old tin can game we played as kids and how the statement starts and is completely different. By the time it gets to the end person)

Either way it has a negative impact to the trust piggy bank and needs to be investigated and outcomes provided for transparency sake

tinfoilzag
06-08-2020, 07:26 AM
According to your numbers Gonzaga University does have a racial disparity issue especially among its faculty.

Thanks for sharing was unaware.

The percentage of those attending and staff falls in line with national and local demographics. The goal is equality of opportunity not equality of outcome.

Hoopaholic
06-08-2020, 07:27 AM
Yeah true. The guy was a dumb ass for walking up to cops in riot gear. The guy tumbled pretty easily. The cops were visibly upset after they saw what happened. But it's just sort of a bummer to see the police push the guy when, all things considered, they probably didn't need to. I'm not calling for the guys badge or think he should be in trouble, but it's just discouraging for me as a lay person who wants to see the police be successful and get a better public perception after this whole thing is through.

In course of civil discussion what option would you have employed knowing that there is projectiles being thrown, group of angry people and the decision and objective was to clear the area was made:

Ignore him and continue (thus letting him in to the interior of the security zone creating a secondary risk that resources would have to deal with)

Stop and do nothing (likely unintended consequence would be advancement of the others to take similar position)

Arrest him (risk of inflaming the group even further, delays to process and the need to protect the individual you just arrested which reduces your resources available to achieve the original objective)

Continue your order to back up and when ignored push him (as per training)

Change your objective ( to gain lawful compliance with the legal order of removing selves from the area)and retreat

Those would be the option in this particular situation

tinfoilzag
06-08-2020, 07:46 AM
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/102882435_10218810659237054_1130390229700797640_n. jpg?_nc_cat=104&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=FRAtZQeoYgcAX94jPhe&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=b2d4c5d4bac70da4ebce7ee575e99c9d&oe=5F023F38

This is a classic persuasion technique used in propaganda. Here's how it works:

Come up with an idea or opinion you want someone to adopt. For example, you want to get paid a bonus this year at work. We can call this idea the 'payload'. In order to deliver the payload in a way the reader will adopt it you put it in a list. The list should consist of 4 to 5 points. The other points should be very obviously factual (and a bit boring) and then you place your payload in with the facts. For our example, it would be worded something like this:

1. Customers are the lifeblood of this company (obvious fact)
2. Without our employees, we can't serve the customers (obvious fact)
3. Without annual bonuses, we'll lose our best employees (Payload)
4. Whether we believe we can or we can't, we're right (clever saying or quote)

You've just programmed your opinion as a fact in someone's mind! Because you paced the reader with facts, they will likely accept all items in the list as facts when it is categorized and stored in the mind. Bonus points if you can keep the same cadence in your writing and focus on loss instead of gain as fear makes humans care more about loss than gain.

Enjoy your newfound tactics is persuasion!

zagfan24
06-08-2020, 07:48 AM
This is a classic persuasion technique used in propaganda. Here's how it works:

Come up with an idea or opinion you want someone to adopt. For example, you want to get paid a bonus this year at work. We can call this idea the 'payload'. In order to deliver the payload in a way the reader will adopt it you put it in a list. The list should consist of 4 to 5 points. The other points should be very obviously factual (and a bit boring) and then you place your payload in with the facts. For our example, it would be worded something like this:

1. Customers are the lifeblood of this company (obvious fact)
2. Without our employees, we can't serve the customers (obvious fact)
3. Without annual bonuses, we'll lose our best employees (Payload)
4. Whether we believe we can or we can't, we're right (clever saying or quote)

You've just programmed your opinion as a fact in someone's mind! Because you paced the reader to with facts, it will likely accept all items in the list as facts when it is categorized and stored in the mind. Bonus points if you can keep the same cadence in your writing and focus on loss instead of gain as fear makes humans care more about loss than gain.

Enjoy your newfound tactics is persuasion!

I think the point of that meme is better phrased as one statement, then. "Your experience is not everyone's experience." Because one of the biggest mistakes we ALL make is assuming that our lens and our knowledge and our worldview and our experiences offers insight into how everyone else lives.

tinfoilzag
06-08-2020, 07:56 AM
I think the point of that meme is better phrased as one statement, then. "Your experience is not everyone's experience."

And water is wet. Saying "your world isn't the world" wasn't the payload in the propaganda meme.

willandi
06-08-2020, 08:01 AM
I am saddened that, despite all the information shared, in one form or another, you persist in your position.

BurgessEraZag
06-08-2020, 08:01 AM
Couldn't agree more with ZagFan. One of the most surprising lessons I've "finally" learned in my 8th and 9th decade of life is that "everyone is different and everyone looks at things differently, even when we essentially agree on the result or resolution of an issue. Frequently people become at odds with others even when they basically agree we all want peace, happiness and good order.

Zagceo
06-08-2020, 08:03 AM
I think the point of that meme is better phrased as one statement, then. "Your experience is not everyone's experience." Because one of the biggest mistakes we ALL make is assuming that our lens and our knowledge and our worldview and our experiences offers insight into how everyone else lives.

along those lines.....here’s another persons experience

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTF-85H_E6o

zagfan24
06-08-2020, 08:08 AM
And water is wet. Saying "your world isn't the world" wasn't the payload in the propaganda meme.

I'm really not being obtuse here...what is the payload in the meme? Which one of the constructs listed do you not think exists?

tinfoilzag
06-08-2020, 08:28 AM
I am saddened that, despite all the information shared, in one form or another, you persist in your position.

I appreciate that. Everyone has been very civil in the delivering of their information as well.

I get the impression that people think I'm on the other "side" or "team" on these positions. This all or nothing, you're with us or against us is not productive is solving problems.

Racism is real. Discrimination is real. Corruption is real. Murder is wrong. Everyone has a different life experience. Black lives matter. Of course.

But there is nuance here. IMO there is not just one problem (racism) that can explain away all the issues. We need to keep talking.

One of the reasons I'm a fan at GU is the fans; always classy. Thanks mods and posters.

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

tinfoilzag
06-08-2020, 08:48 AM
I'm really not being obtuse here...what is the payload in the meme? Which one of the constructs listed do you not think exists?

1. Pandemics are real - Can confirm with observable data and can be measured in infections and deaths. Can model and predict.
2. Racism is real - Can confirm as people in the past and today have made statements that they believe one race is superior to another.
3. White privileged is real - Can't confirm. Can't be isolated or observed. No metrics. Faith based. Similar to chakra or aura
4. Police brutality is real - Can confirm. Can be seen and measured.
5. Everything isn't about you - Can Confirm but philosophy involved. While Sophists would argue that this is opinion, most would say that that there is an objective and observable universe.

willandi
06-08-2020, 08:58 AM
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/101712743_3035573539860922_910750014140055552_n.jp g?_nc_cat=105&_nc_sid=110474&_nc_ohc=FRC6C02COvAAX-Qn1G8&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=2da2764176a483e2e665b3861151f033&oe=5F05D2B4

CB4
06-08-2020, 09:10 AM
3. White privileged is real - Can't confirm. Can't be isolated or observed. No metrics. Faith based. Similar to chakra or aura


What do you think the definition of white privilege is?

zagfan24
06-08-2020, 09:11 AM
3. White privileged is real - Can't confirm. Can't be isolated or observed. No metrics. Faith based. Similar to chakra or aura


When operationally defined, I would argue that white privilege can be evaluated using metrics and observation.

https://www.tolerance.org/magazine/fall-2018/what-is-white-privilege-really

https://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html

tinfoilzag
06-08-2020, 09:37 AM
What do you think the definition of white privilege is?

It's a good question. The concept started in 88? Every time I try to find the definition of it all I get are anecdotes that can be attributed to it but not what it is.

It appears to be a loose collection of bias and prejudices people have towards race, religion, class, language, and sex attributed to an ethnicity, in this case people who are perceived of as white.

I guess the unit of measure is a "Karen" but I don't know what that is. I've seen some non-whites being accused of having it in twitter arguments so it may not be just skin color?

willandi
06-08-2020, 09:39 AM
How racist policing took over American cities, explained by a historian

https://www.vox.com/2020/6/6/21280643/police-brutality-violence-protests-racism-khalil-muhammad?fbclid=IwAR03Sh1eXeYE9Q_eBKA4axNaUiHnx-7MGaB850vNaHL-c74zhrbtl6gvc-Q

willandi
06-08-2020, 09:45 AM
This is from a link posted above. I don't normally like to post large blocks of data, buyt this should be read. It provides some insight into what 'white privilege' is.

Daily effects of white privilege
I decided to try to work on myself at least by identifying some of the daily effects of white privilege in
my life. I have chosen those conditions that I think in my case attach somewhat more to skin-color
privilege than to class, religion, ethnic status, or geographic location, though of course all these other
factors are intricately intertwined. As far as I can tell, my African American coworkers, friends, and
acquaintances with whom I come into daily or frequent contact in this particular time, place and time of
work cannot count on most of these conditions.
1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.
2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to
mistrust my kind or me.
3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can
afford and in which I would want to live.
4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.
5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.
6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely
represented.
7. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my
color made it what it is.
8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their
race.
9. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.
10. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.
11. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person's voice in a group in which s/he is the
only member of his/her race.
12. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket
and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find
someone who can cut my hair.
13. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the
appearance of financial reliability.
14. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.
15. I do not have to educate my children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical
protection.
16. I can be pretty sure that my children's teachers and employers will tolerate them if they fit school and
workplace norms; my chief worries about them do not concern others' attitudes toward their race.
17. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down to my color.
18. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute
these choices to the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race.
19. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.
20. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.
21. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.
22. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world's
majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.
23. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without
being seen as a cultural outsider.
24. I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the "person in charge", I will be facing a person of my race.
25. If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled
out because of my race.
26. I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys and children's
magazines featuring people of my race.
27. I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than
isolated, out-of-place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance or feared.
28. I can be pretty sure that an argument with a colleague of another race is more likely to jeopardize
her/his chances for advancement than to jeopardize mine.
29. I can be pretty sure that if I argue for the promotion of a person of another race, or a program
centering on race, this is not likely to cost me heavily within my present setting, even if my colleagues
disagree with me.
30. If I declare there is a racial issue at hand, or there isn't a racial issue at hand, my race will lend me
more credibility for either position than a person of color will have.
31. I can choose to ignore developments in minority writing and minority activist programs, or disparage
them, or learn from them, but in any case, I can find ways to be more or less protected from negative
consequences of any of these choices.
32. My culture gives me little fear about ignoring the perspectives and powers of people of other races.
33. I am not made acutely aware that my shape, bearing or body odor will be taken as a reflection on my
race.
34. I can worry about racism without being seen as self-interested or self-seeking.
35. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having my co-workers on the job
suspect that I got it because of my race.
36. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether
it had racial overtones.
37. I can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my
next steps, professionally.
38. I can think over many options, social, political, imaginative or professional, without asking whether
a person of my race would be accepted or allowed to do what I want to do.
39. I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race.
40. I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be
mistreated in the places I have chosen.
41. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.
42. I can arrange my activities so that I will never have to experience feelings of rejection owing to my
race.
43. If I have low credibility as a leader I can be sure that my race is not the problem.
44. I can easily find academic courses and institutions which give attention only to people of my race.
45. I can expect figurative language and imagery in all of the arts to testify to experiences of my race.
46. I can chose blemish cover or bandages in "flesh" color and have them more or less match my skin.
47. I can travel alone or with my spouse without expecting embarrassment or hostility in those who deal
with us.
48. I have no difficulty finding neighborhoods where people approve of our household.
49. My children are given texts and classes which implicitly support our kind of family unit and do not
turn them against my choice of domestic partnership.
50. I will feel welcomed and "normal" in the usual walks of public life, institutional and social.

CB4
06-08-2020, 09:46 AM
It's a good question. The concept started in 88? Every time I try to find the definition of it all I get are anecdotes that can be attributed to it but not what it is.

It appears to be a loose collection of bias and prejudices people have towards race, religion, class, language, and sex attributed to an ethnicity, in this case people who are perceived of as white.

I guess the unit of measure is a "Karen" but I don't know what that is. I've seen some non-whites being accused of having it in twitter arguments so it may not be just skin color?

You should read on it.

Given the choice, if you're pulled over by the police would you rather be white or black? Given the choice, would you rather exercise your right to lethal home defense against an intruder as a white or black person? Given the choice, if your son gets in a schoolyard fight, would you rather he be white or black at the disciplinary hearing? If you're mistaken as a home intruder on the street, but are really just a jogger, would you rather be white or black? The honest answer to any of these hypothetical questions is "White." This benefit of the doubt for white people is the white privilege. White people get screwed too, no doubt, but almost any metric will show you that black people and people of color get the short end of the stick more often. No one wants to take away anyone's "white privilege." It's about extending the rights to people of color as well.

Recall that Stanford swimmer who raped a woman as a freshman on camera. He got a slap on the wrist. That's white privilege at the most extreme level.

Kong-Kool-Aid
06-08-2020, 09:53 AM
I'm curious if you feel there are no lasting impacts of slavery or segregation in the United States?

tinfoilzag
06-08-2020, 10:05 AM
You should read on it.

Given the choice, if you're pulled over by the police would you rather be white or black? Given the choice, would you rather exercise your right to lethal home defense against an intruder as a white or black person? Given the choice, if your son gets in a schoolyard fight, would you rather he be white or black at the disciplinary hearing? If you're mistaken as a home intruder on the street, but are really just a jogger, would you rather be white or black? The honest answer to any of these hypothetical questions is "White." This benefit of the doubt for white people is the white privilege. White people get screwed too, no doubt, but almost any metric will show you that black people and people of color get the short end of the stick more often. No one wants to take away anyone's "white privilege." It's about extending the rights to people of color as well.

Recall that Stanford swimmer who raped a woman as a freshman on camera. He got a slap on the wrist. That's white privilege at the most extreme level.

Again, no definition, just a collections of antidotes, hypotheticals, stereotypes. Maybe "white privilege' is saying "Whites" have a strong brand?

bballbeachbum
06-08-2020, 10:06 AM
In course of civil discussion what option would you have employed knowing that there is projectiles being thrown, group of angry people and the decision and objective was to clear the area was made:

Ignore him and continue (thus letting him in to the interior of the security zone creating a secondary risk that resources would have to deal with)

Stop and do nothing (likely unintended consequence would be advancement of the others to take similar position)

Arrest him (risk of inflaming the group even further, delays to process and the need to protect the individual you just arrested which reduces your resources available to achieve the original objective)

Continue your order to back up and when ignored push him (as per training)

Change your objective ( to gain lawful compliance with the legal order of removing selves from the area)and retreat

Those would be the option in this particular situation

hey hoop, the DA was clear what he thinks should have happened, and charged the two officers based on that. The DA presser I linked, or even the shorter edited version, his interpretation of the event is different from yours, maybe I'm wrong on that, but what do you think of what the DA said about this and how the law, per the DA, says these officers should have acted?

willandi
06-08-2020, 10:06 AM
I'm curious if you feel there are no lasting impacts of slavery or segregation in the United States?

Well, the Irish... Just kidding. It is a favorite deflection used by many to deny the reality of Black persecution.

tinfoilzag
06-08-2020, 10:18 AM
I'm curious if you feel there are no lasting impacts of slavery or segregation in the United States?

It's such an obvious answer I can't tell if you are trolling. Just because something is addressed and codified doesn't mean it erases history or impact.

CB4
06-08-2020, 10:20 AM
Again, no definition, just a collections of antidotes, hypotheticals, stereotypes. Maybe "white privilege' is saying "Whites" have a strong brand?

:vomit-smiley-007:

I don't even understand what you're getting at. I asked you what you understand white privilege to be. You don't need a library card to learn about it. I provided examples, which you reject as "a collections of antidotes, hypotheticals, stereotypes" and make some vague reference about Whites as a brand. You've expressed your dissent and seem to reject the idea that white people have more "advantages" in American society than black people, such as not getting charged with marijuana at the same rate as people of color despite similar usage. I don't think I can continue to engage with you despite my efforts to help you expand your thinking from all of this.

tinfoilzag
06-08-2020, 11:05 AM
:vomit-smiley-007:

I don't even understand what you're getting at. I asked you what you understand white privilege to be. You don't need a library card to learn about it. I provided examples, which you reject as "a collections of antidotes, hypotheticals, stereotypes" and make some vague reference about Whites as a brand. You've expressed your dissent and seem to reject the idea that white people have more "advantages" in American society than black people, such as not getting charged with marijuana at the same rate as people of color despite similar usage. I don't think I can continue to engage with you despite my efforts to help you expand your thinking from all of this.

The stating of the obvious is getting tedious. I'll throw one in: Life isn't fair.

Everyone has advantages and disadvantages and it's not fair. If your definition of 'white privilege' is 'white people have more "advantages" in American society than black people' then we have something to work with. Whites are the majority of the population which is an advantage because products and services are meant to serve the biggest market possible. Humans (all humans) are more likely to relate to someone that looks, speaks, or acts like them( if you ever want to ingratiate yourself with someone, mimic their speech, gestures, and clothing). So if you are saying that 'white privilege' is the phenomenon that the majority of the US is white and humans have in-group bias then you are correct. I thought everyone knew this. We try to be better and not be irrational but it's not all nurture.

Kong-Kool-Aid
06-08-2020, 11:12 AM
It's such an obvious answer I can't tell if you are trolling. Just because something is addressed and codified doesn't mean it erases history or impact.

I'm assuming that you are also of the belief that these impacts are negative?

I'll also take a leap of faith and assume that you would agree that slavery and segregation afforded white Americans many benefits.

Can you therefor agree that the lasting negative impacts upon the black community mean that members of that community have many disadvantages that white Americans would not experience?

MDABE80
06-08-2020, 11:20 AM
Where the basketball in this discussion. ???

Kong-Kool-Aid
06-08-2020, 11:22 AM
The stating of the obvious is getting tedious. I'll throw one in: Life isn't fair.

Everyone has advantages and disadvantages and it's not fair. If your definition of 'white privilege' is 'white people have more "advantages" in American society than black people' then we have something to work with. Whites are the majority of the population which is an advantage because products and services are meant to serve the biggest market possible. Humans (all humans) are more likely to relate to someone that looks, speaks, or acts like them( if you ever want to ingratiate yourself with someone, mimic their speech, gestures, and clothing). So if you are saying that 'white privilege' is the phenomenon that the majority of the US is white and humans have in-group bias then you are correct. I thought everyone knew this. We try to be better and not be irrational but it's not all nurture.

White privileged isn't simply the result of being the majority of the population, its being the benefactor of 400 years slavery and segregation which allowed white Americans to prosper on the backs of black Americans. It allowed white Americans to own land and businesses, to expand and grow the middle class, while black American's were not. (or if they did ended up having their businesses destroyed ie. Tulsa, or Rosewood) White privilege is in part the 400 year head start people who are white had on people who are black, it's that head start that they continue to enjoy today through the enforcement of many entities and institutions which were created during those times.

Here is a definition I've seen though it may not necessarily be all encompassing. “Having greater access to power and resources than people of color [in the same situation] do.

LongIslandZagFan
06-08-2020, 11:28 AM
The stating of the obvious is getting tedious. I'll throw one in: Life isn't fair.

Everyone has advantages and disadvantages and it's not fair. If your definition of 'white privilege' is 'white people have more "advantages" in American society than black people' then we have something to work with. Whites are the majority of the population which is an advantage because products and services are meant to serve the biggest market possible. Humans (all humans) are more likely to relate to someone that looks, speaks, or acts like them( if you ever want to ingratiate yourself with someone, mimic their speech, gestures, and clothing). So if you are saying that 'white privilege' is the phenomenon that the majority of the US is white and humans have in-group bias then you are correct. I thought everyone knew this. We try to be better and not be irrational but it's not all nurture.

Correct... life isn't fair. But systemic racism isn't about life being fair... it is about the system being designed to systemically be unfair to a segment of society. Life isn't fair when it is about luck not going your way or things not working out as you planned is a valid statement. Having a system set up to discriminate is not a vaild use of "life isn't fair". JMHO

LongIslandZagFan
06-08-2020, 11:29 AM
Where the basketball in this discussion. ???

Just don't read the thread. It seems many here, on both sides of the spectrum, want this to be where it is... at least for now. If it runs its course...we'll move it.

Kong-Kool-Aid
06-08-2020, 11:33 AM
I don't think I have much more to add to this.

https://www.tolerance.org/magazine/fall-2018/what-is-white-privilege-really

"We cannot have an enlightened democracy with one great group living in ignorance."

"We cannot be truly Christian people so long as we flaunt the central teachings of Jesus: brotherly love and the Golden Rule. We cannot come to full prosperity with one great group so ill-delayed that it cannot buy goods. So as we gird ourselves to defend democracy from foreign attack, let us see to it that increasingly at home we give fair play and free opportunity for all people."

"First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Councilor or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to ‘order’ than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: ‘I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action’; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a ‘more convenient season.’ Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will.”

zagfan24
06-08-2020, 11:37 AM
Where the basketball in this discussion. ???

Do you think Josh Heytvelt's legal issues would have been received the same in Spokane had he been Black?

Do you think Adam Morrison's mercurial, outlandish personality would have been viewed so positively had he been Black?

Have you read the words of Geno Crandall? Sam Dower? Nigel Williams-Goss? Racial discrimination, bias, and prejudice are 100% related to Gonzaga basketball. And medicine. And everything else that involves human beings.

tinfoilzag
06-08-2020, 11:54 AM
I'm assuming that you are also of the belief that these impacts are negative?

I'll also take a leap of faith and assume that you would agree that slavery and segregation afforded white Americans many benefits.

Can you therefor agree that the lasting negative impacts upon the black community mean that members of that community have many disadvantages that white Americans would not experience?

First off, slavery and segregation should not be grouped as if they are synonymous. Owning someone as property is so much worse that they shouldn't be mentioned together. Slavery was also abolished around 190 years ago in the US before Washington was even a state. There are still people alive the experienced segregation.

I don't agree with the leap of faith because it frames the situation as whites taking from blacks as opposed to not treating blacks as well. Even in their ignorance, people in the 50's treated blacks as more of a second class (similar to India's caste system) than predator and pray. The christian values prevailed.

There have been several times in recent history where the US government worked against the black communities like in FDR's new deal and even recently in the 1980's where welfare largely destroyed the traditional black family.

Again, I've only been one person my whole life and can't mind read. Black people are not a monolithic group with all the same thoughts and struggles but I'm pretty sure that any black person from the past would trade places with some black person in the future in the US. We in the US want to continue that trend.

former1dog
06-08-2020, 12:06 PM
I was in favor of eliminating the OCC in this forum, because it represented a degradation of discourse. That degradation of discourse may have started online and seeped out into the everyday world. I'm not sure. That lack of respect for an opposing viewpoint may have always been there for all I know.

So, it is with reluctance that I post in this thread. However, as you may conclude from my writings below, I think this is an important discussion because amongst some public officials there is a lack of coherent thinking which is influening policy matters, in my opinion. If you feel the need to disagree with me, feel free. Please be respectful and realize my thoughts come from a thoughtful, well informed by research and life experience and an honest place.

I've written a couple of short postings on social media recently that are relevant to this discussion, but aren't in direct response to any specific post in this thread, the first I wrote last week:

I support equal justice under the law. I support a just enforcement of the law. I support maximizing our individual freedoms and governments at all levels should be dedicated to the same. I support honesty, transparency and accountability from all whose actions have an impact on public life, especially our public officials, elected or otherwise. I support the concept of personal responsibility for my actions and I support holding other individuals accountable for their actions. I oppose systemic oppression. I oppose racism in all its forms. I believe I should try and live in accordance with my beliefs. This isn't a comprehensive list of all the concepts that are important to me, but the ones I feel are most relevant to todays conversation.
I understand I am human and won't always live up to my ideals and I understand that others often fall short as well. I believe that most individuals come about their beliefs/opinions sincerely and that they have the best intentions, even if those beliefs/opinions are contrary to my own.
I don't know enough about the political action campaign that calls itself Black Lives Matter. For that reason, I won't put up a black banner and use the popular hashtag floating around today. I agree with the statement that black lives matter. We are all God's children and should be treated accordingly. When I have time, I'll educate myself on this movement, but until then this is the best I can do.

Subsequently today, I wrote this:


Last week, when everyone was blacking our their social media pages, I wrote a post stating my interest in equal justice under the law and equal enforcement of the law, amongst other things. I wrote that I agree with the statement black lives matter, but didn’t know much about the political action group of the same name. Anyone that knows me also knows I don’t rubber stamp agreement with anything or anyone.
Since then, I’ve studied the group, their ideology and their political goals. In this context, I am very much opposed to this political action group. Their ideology taken to its logical conclusion would be disastrous for our country and more relevantly to the black communities they purport to serve.
They have long proposed defunding police across the country, replacing it with some nebulous and ill defined community funding. This by far is the worst idea I’ve ever heard being proposed and taken seriously in my 50 years. According to a recent Monmouth poll, a large majority of people in our country including black people are satisfied with the police. Why? It is because they serve a necessary role in all of our communities. They have a dangerous job. Are there bad cops? Absolutely! Most cops, like most people, are honorable men and women who want what is best for the communities they serve. Most live in those communities.
The chaos that would ensue with out police is hard to imagine. In my life, I’ve been stolen from, had businesses I’ve managed shoplifted, been threatened with physical violence multiple times by strangers, physically assaulted, robbed at gun point, had two home invasions and most recently a drug fueled and insane individual trespassed on our property in the middle of the night. That has all happened with police! Imagine the amount of crime that will occur when those with bad intentions or with minds clouded by drug use know they can act with impunity?
And yet, the city council of Minneapolis has voted to defund their police department. LA and NYC are considering similar actions. This is insane.
I cannot support a political action group that would propose such a policy. I will not support it.

MDABE80
06-08-2020, 12:08 PM
Do you think Josh Heytvelt's legal issues would have been received the same in Spokane had he been Black?

Do you think Adam Morrison's mercurial, outlandish personality would have been viewed so positively had he been Black?

Have you read the words of Geno Crandall? Sam Dower? Nigel Williams-Goss? Racial discrimination, bias, and prejudice are 100% related to Gonzaga basketball. And medicine. And everything else that involves human beings.


It might . This "discussion" could be more properly be in the foo. LIZ says it should stay here because many people comment. All that means is that many people are commenting and the thread is interesting. Answer: usual absence of logic, they'd be just as interested if it was in the foo.

You all have shifted from cops killing this poor man ( see the FBI data) to the concepts and arguments on systemic racism..not in basketball but throughout the society. SO now those who would rather be seeing basketball news continue to get long winded reviews on this murder.

As for "Don't read it"" from LIZ, childish response. In this basketball board, this one issue is overshadowing every and anything basketball. Diligence with a few click or two, this could and should be elsewhere.......FOO or something akin.

We will not solve or fix systemic racism.......... it's a dead end. Not here, not anywhere. Social issues should be elsewhere. Some here are confusing insofar as whenone of our former basketball players says something...it's a basketball related statement...only by the thinnest of threads. No.it's the content of the posts that defines where a thread should be. .not who said it.

former1dog
06-08-2020, 12:11 PM
Abe,

I don't necessarily disagree with you. However, as a founding member of the Foo, I protest any thread not started in the Foo, being moved to the Foo. The Foo is a sacred ground of nonsense, frivolity, and horseplay. It is not a place for a serious discussion on any topic whatsoever, except for barbecue.

God Bless.

CB4
06-08-2020, 12:17 PM
I was in favor of eliminating the OCC in this forum, because it represented a degradation of discourse. That degradation of discourse may have started online and seeped out into the everyday world. I'm not sure. That lack of respect for an opposing viewpoint may have always been there for all I know.

So, it is with reluctance that I post in this thread. However, as you may conclude from my writings below, I think this is an important discussion because amongst some public officials there is a lack of coherent thinking which is influening policy matters, in my opinion. If you feel the need to disagree with me, feel free. Please be respectful and realize my thoughts come from a thoughtful, well informed by research and life experience and an honest place.

I've written a couple of short postings on social media recently that are relevant to this discussion, but aren't in direct response to any specific post in this thread, the first I wrote last week:

I support equal justice under the law. I support a just enforcement of the law. I support maximizing our individual freedoms and governments at all levels should be dedicated to the same. I support honesty, transparency and accountability from all whose actions have an impact on public life, especially our public officials, elected or otherwise. I support the concept of personal responsibility for my actions and I support holding other individuals accountable for their actions. I oppose systemic oppression. I oppose racism in all its forms. I believe I should try and live in accordance with my beliefs. This isn't a comprehensive list of all the concepts that are important to me, but the ones I feel are most relevant to todays conversation.
I understand I am human and won't always live up to my ideals and I understand that others often fall short as well. I believe that most individuals come about their beliefs/opinions sincerely and that they have the best intentions, even if those beliefs/opinions are contrary to my own.
I don't know enough about the political action campaign that calls itself Black Lives Matter. For that reason, I won't put up a black banner and use the popular hashtag floating around today. I agree with the statement that black lives matter. We are all God's children and should be treated accordingly. When I have time, I'll educate myself on this movement, but until then this is the best I can do.

Subsequently today, I wrote this:


Last week, when everyone was blacking our their social media pages, I wrote a post stating my interest in equal justice under the law and equal enforcement of the law, amongst other things. I wrote that I agree with the statement black lives matter, but didn’t know much about the political action group of the same name. Anyone that knows me also knows I don’t rubber stamp agreement with anything or anyone.
Since then, I’ve studied the group, their ideology and their political goals. In this context, I am very much opposed to this political action group. Their ideology taken to its logical conclusion would be disastrous for our country and more relevantly to the black communities they purport to serve.
They have long proposed defunding police across the country, replacing it with some nebulous and ill defined community funding. This by far is the worst idea I’ve ever heard being proposed and taken seriously in my 50 years. According to a recent Monmouth poll, a large majority of people in our country including black people are satisfied with the police. Why? It is because they serve a necessary role in all of our communities. They have a dangerous job. Are there bad cops? Absolutely! Most cops, like most people, are honorable men and women who want what is best for the communities they serve. Most live in those communities.
The chaos that would ensue with out police is hard to imagine. In my life, I’ve been stolen from, had businesses I’ve managed shoplifted, been threatened with physical violence multiple times by strangers, physically assaulted, robbed at gun point, had two home invasions and most recently a drug fueled and insane individual trespassed on our property in the middle of the night. That has all happened with police! Imagine the amount of crime that will occur when those with bad intentions or with minds clouded by drug use know they can act with impunity?
And yet, the city council of Minneapolis has voted to defund their police department. LA and NYC are considering similar actions. This is insane.
I cannot support a political action group that would propose such a policy. I will not support it.




Be not afraid. “Defunding the police” is not as scary (or even as radical) as it sounds, and engaging on this topic is necessary if we are going to achieve the kind of public safety we need. During my 25 years dedicated to police reform, including in places such as Ferguson, Mo., New Orleans and Chicago, it has become clear to me that “reform” is not enough. Making sure that police follow the rule of law is not enough. Even changing the laws is not enough.

To fix policing, we must first recognize how much we have come to over-rely on law enforcement. We turn to the police in situations where years of experience and common sense tell us that their involvement is unnecessary, and can make things worse. We ask police to take accident reports, respond to people who have overdosed and arrest, rather than cite, people who might have intentionally or not passed a counterfeit $20 bill. We call police to roust homeless people from corners and doorsteps, resolve verbal squabbles between family members and strangers alike, and arrest children for behavior that once would have been handled as a school disciplinary issue.

Police themselves often complain about having to “do too much,” including handling social problems for which they are ill-equipped. Some have been vocal about the need to decriminalize social problems and take police out of the equation. It is clear that we must reimagine the role they play in public safety.

Defunding and abolition probably mean something different from what you are thinking. For most proponents, “defunding the police” does not mean zeroing out budgets for public safety, and police abolition does not mean that police will disappear overnight — or perhaps ever. Defunding the police means shrinking the scope of police responsibilities and shifting most of what government does to keep us safe to entities that are better equipped to meet that need. It means investing more in mental-health care and housing, and expanding the use of community mediation and violence interruption programs.

Police abolition means reducing, with the vision of eventually eliminating, our reliance on policing to secure our public safety. It means recognizing that criminalizing addiction and poverty, making 10 million arrests per year and mass incarceration have not provided the public safety we want and never will. The “abolition” language is important because it reminds us that policing has been the primary vehicle for using violence to perpetuate the unjustified white control over the bodies and lives of black people that has been with us since slavery. That aspect of policing must be literally abolished.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/06/07/defund-police-heres-what-that-really-means/
--

LongIslandZagFan
06-08-2020, 12:17 PM
It might . This "discussion" could be more properly be in the foo. LIZ says it should stay here because many people comment. All that means is that many people are commenting and the thread is interesting. Answer: usual absence of logic, they'd be just as interested if it was in the foo.

You all have shifted from cops killing this poor man ( see the FBI data) to the concepts and arguments on systemic racism..not in basketball but throughout the society. SO now those who would rather be seeing basketball news continue to get long winded reviews on this murder.

As for "Don't read it"" from LIZ, childish response. In this basketball board, this one issue is overshadowing every and anything basketball. Diligence with a few click or two, this could and should be elsewhere.......FOO or something akin.

We will not solve or fix systemic racism.......... it's a dead end. Not here, not anywhere. Social issues should be elsewhere. Some here are confusing insofar as whenone of our former basketball players says something...it's a basketball related statement...only by the thinnest of threads. No.it's the content of the posts that defines where a thread should be. .not who said it.

Not trying to be childish at all. It is a simple solution to the issue. Just reminding you that, like others, DO have the option to not click on the thread. It will be moved eventually, but as I said, people on both sides have expressed an interest in it staying where it is for the time being. Let it run it's course and it will go away. It is the off-season and it is an important topic. Let the leash out a bit on this one. If it gets too snippy we'll move it. For the record, I think you have offered great insight in the thread as well.

LongIslandZagFan
06-08-2020, 12:18 PM
Abe,

I don't necessarily disagree with you. However, as a founding member of the Foo, I protest any thread not started in the Foo, being moved to the Foo. The Foo is a sacred ground of nonsense, frivolity, and horseplay. It is not a place for a serious discussion on any topic whatsoever, except for barbecue.

God Bless.


LOL... yeah.. what he said. No Foo for this thread. When it does get moved... it won't be there.

tinfoilzag
06-08-2020, 12:29 PM
White privileged isn't simply the result of being the majority of the population, its being the benefactor of 400 years slavery and segregation which allowed white Americans to prosper on the backs of black Americans. It allowed white Americans to own land and businesses, to expand and grow the middle class, while black American's were not. (or if they did ended up having their businesses destroyed ie. Tulsa, or Rosewood) White privilege is in part the 400 year head start people who are white had on people who are black, it's that head start that they continue to enjoy today through the enforcement of many entities and institutions which were created during those times.

Here is a definition I've seen though it may not necessarily be all encompassing. “Having greater access to power and resources than people of color [in the same situation] do.

The US was a burning hulk after the civil war with very little wealth. I'd say more of a 150 year head start than a 400 year.

I hear what you are saying but the next step is this line of reasoning seems to be "therefore, what you have is ill gotten gains" and I don't agree with that. I haven't stolen or cheated to get the few things I have and I reject that I can be considered immoral just because of my ethnicity.

As far as the "greater access to power and resources" I've read Marx and this just sounds like replacing Bourgeoisie with White. There will always be class struggle.

There will always be "It's not what you know, but who you know". I don't like it, but it's true.

tinfoilzag
06-08-2020, 12:38 PM
Not trying to be childish at all. It is a simple solution to the issue. Just reminding you that, like others, DO have the option to not click on the thread. It will be moved eventually, but as I said, people on both sides have expressed an interest in it staying where it is for the time being. Let it run it's course and it will go away. It is the off-season and it is an important topic. Let the leash out a bit on this one. If it gets too snippy we'll move it. For the record, I think you have offered great insight in the thread as well.

I think it has been a release valve for the opinionated people that visit the board. There's a vacuum on basketball news and people made visiting the board as part of their daily routine so at least there's something to read/respond to.

LongIslandZagFan
06-08-2020, 12:44 PM
I think it has been a release valve for the opinionated people that visit the board. There's a vacuum on basketball news and people made visiting the board as part of their daily routine so at least there's something to read/respond to.


We may not agree on the subject at hand... but definitely agree with this. I am pleased that by and large the discussion has been polite (not always but nothing egregious either).

willandi
06-08-2020, 01:04 PM
First off, slavery and segregation should not be grouped as if they are synonymous. Owning someone as property is so much worse that they shouldn't be mentioned together. Slavery was also abolished around 190 years ago in the US before Washington was even a state. There are still people alive the experienced segregation.

I don't agree with the leap of faith because it frames the situation as whites taking from blacks as opposed to not treating blacks as well. Even in their ignorance, people in the 50's treated blacks as more of a second class (similar to India's caste system) than predator and pray. The christian values prevailed.

There have been several times in recent history where the US government worked against the black communities like in FDR's new deal and even recently in the 1980's where welfare largely destroyed the traditional black family.

Again, I've only been one person my whole life and can't mind read. Black people are not a monolithic group with all the same thoughts and struggles but I'm pretty sure that any black person from the past would trade places with some black person in the future in the US. We in the US want to continue that trend.

I posted a link above that describes how the inequitable enforcement of 'the law' enabled many white men to use black convicts for almost free labor, especially in the south. Still slavery, just a different means of getting to it.

Hoopaholic
06-08-2020, 01:35 PM
hey hoop, the DA was clear what he thinks should have happened, and charged the two officers based on that. The DA presser I linked, or even the shorter edited version, his interpretation of the event is different from yours, maybe I'm wrong on that, but what do you think of what the DA said about this and how the law, per the DA, says these officers should have acted?

Got buried sorry

First he is a political position and has to make some decisions based upon the optics of his constituents. That is reality in life.

Second, element of INTENT is going to be very very difficult to prove along with the element of an unlawful touching (told to depart, approached and APPEARS(though very hard to see in the media release) to grab or attempt to grab an officers hand or arm.......The third element is clearly present and that is what he rested his belief in charging on. Age of victim and age of suspect. US Supreme Court has been clear time and time again (*right wrong or needs to change is different discussion) that use of force is an objective reasonableness standard that is based upon a careful balancing of the nature and quality of the intrusion or force used, utilizing a reasonable police officer point of view....... a change from the past standards and reliance of the 14th ammendment and malicious intent and even more unusual foundational view of the eight ammendmanent of cruel and unusual punishment...........so with the next issue below would a reasonable officer conclude that the extension of the riot baton in a push manner and the extension of the right hand in a push manner combined with multiple commands to depart was reasonable and the outcome was predictable (*concussion and critical condition)

Third, the tactics deployed are taught and trained AFTER being vetted at the state level, through the state criminal justice training apparatus, thus approved at the State Attorney General level as being an authorized tactic. So if you have a state AG approving/authorizing, state training agency training it, local DA having full knowledge of the options as it pertains to tactics, a City Mayor knowing full well what the action plan and tactics are going to be in place and a Chief of Police and his/her command staff providing direct training, authorization and guidance .......do you think the officer would have reasonable belief the tactic deployed is authorized and not excessive
Now we can have a discussion about tactics but isn’t it odd that the same DA has not charged any officers/command staff when they deployed pepper spray or other tactics since after all he said”It is simple, arrest him”........food for thought

Finally, he is going to have a hard time explaining that just a mere 2 months ago he declined to charge a manslaughter charge against several individuals in a hazing death with his exact statements being. “I could find no intent as it pertains to their actions and the outcome”. Yet without even interviewing the suspects, he was somehow able to infer intent through their actions and desired outcome......tough one for me to view

Those are several factors as it pertains to the law and use of force in context with this specific incident

Again discussion of utilizing this tactic can occur and I provided options for consideration but each have potential for negative outcomes in a volatile evolving, changing situation.......

vandalzag
06-08-2020, 02:08 PM
Good points made by all. The fact that this has gone 9 pages without blowing up should give us all hope for the rest of society. I like this from John Oliver. Some good points made, no fingers pointed based on politics, since both parties have failed us on this issue. One story to share that pertains to this discussion: My future son in law is African American. He described a time when he was driving in Post Falls and was pulled over. The officers proceeded to inspect/search the vehicle only to tell him the reason the pulled him over was to let him know his tabs were expiring in 3 months. He was scared and his takeaway from that was he was grateful his Mom was a passenger in the car or what else would have happened. I am law enforcement, have many friends who are cops. Bottom line is things need to change.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf4cea5oObY

bballbeachbum
06-08-2020, 02:29 PM
Got buried sorry

First he is a political position and has to make some decisions based upon the optics of his constituents. That is reality in life.

Second, element of INTENT is going to be very very difficult to prove along with the element of an unlawful touching (told to depart, approached and APPEARS(though very hard to see in the media release) to grab or attempt to grab an officers hand or arm.......The third element is clearly present and that is what he rested his belief in charging on. Age of victim and age of suspect. US Supreme Court has been clear time and time again (*right wrong or needs to change is different discussion) that use of force is an objective reasonableness standard that is based upon a careful balancing of the nature and quality of the intrusion or force used, utilizing a reasonable police officer point of view....... a change from the past standards and reliance of the 14th ammendment and malicious intent and even more unusual foundational view of the eight ammendmanent of cruel and unusual punishment...........so with the next issue below would a reasonable officer conclude that the extension of the riot baton in a push manner and the extension of the right hand in a push manner combined with multiple commands to depart was reasonable and the outcome was predictable (*concussion and critical condition)

Third, the tactics deployed are taught and trained AFTER being vetted at the state level, through the state criminal justice training apparatus, thus approved at the State Attorney General level as being an authorized tactic. So if you have a state AG approving/authorizing, state training agency training it, local DA having full knowledge of the options as it pertains to tactics, a City Mayor knowing full well what the action plan and tactics are going to be in place and a Chief of Police and his/her command staff providing direct training, authorization and guidance .......do you think the officer would have reasonable belief the tactic deployed is authorized and not excessive
Now we can have a discussion about tactics but isn’t it odd that the same DA has not charged any officers/command staff when they deployed pepper spray or other tactics since after all he said”It is simple, arrest him”........food for thought

Finally, he is going to have a hard time explaining that just a mere 2 months ago he declined to charge a manslaughter charge against several individuals in a hazing death with his exact statements being. “I could find no intent as it pertains to their actions and the outcome”. Yet without even interviewing the suspects, he was somehow able to infer intent through their actions and desired outcome......tough one for me to view

Those are several factors as it pertains to the law and use of force in context with this specific incident

Again discussion of utilizing this tactic can occur and I provided options for consideration but each have potential for negative outcomes in a volatile evolving, changing situation.......

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

This will be interesting to follow. He is currently prosecuting 6 other law enforcement officials before this happened he said, so if it's political for optics, he's already made this optic apparent. He's also prosecuting 39 rioters currently I believe he said. I don't know if that is optics too, but he's busy...in the middle of all of this I believe he said.

Re. intent, to many observers it looks like Gugino is returning the helmet so we'll see what is believed as a threat from q man approaching a mass of officers. The DA said they should have cuffed him, not shove him with the baton, so we'll see.

Re. tactics, I have a question on that too; were the officers following orders, and if so, are others to be charged too? If not following orders, then only they are charged? From your writing I perceive you are saying they are following normal tactics and orders. That is some food for thought for me.

Also, as a former Chief of Police, you understand that the DA's office is not the only political player in this equation.

I appreciate our civil tone with each other.

MDABE80
06-08-2020, 03:52 PM
Good points made by all. The fact that this has gone 9 pages without blowing up should give us all hope for the rest of society. I like this from John Oliver. Some good points made, no fingers pointed based on politics, since both parties have failed us on this issue. One story to share that pertains to this discussion: My future son in law is African American. He described a time when he was driving in Post Falls and was pulled over. The officers proceeded to inspect/search the vehicle only to tell him the reason the pulled him over was to let him know his tabs were expiring in 3 months. He was scared and his takeaway from that was he was grateful his Mom was a passenger in the car or what else would have happened. I am law enforcement, have many friends who are cops. Bottom line is things need to change.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf4cea5oObY

Happened to me too. No reason to stop me. Gave me a ticket for 65 in a 60. But they tore my car APART AND WEREN'T NICE ABOUT IT. gave me a ticket and drove off. some cops are simpleton aholes .

TexasZagFan
06-08-2020, 05:40 PM
Happened to me too. No reason to stop me. Gave me a ticket for 65 in a 60. But they tore my car APART AND WEREN'T NICE ABOUT IT. gave me a ticket and drove off. some cops are simpleton aholes .

That's not unique to the good old USA. It must have been nearly 40 years ago when I was driving back from a weekend in Holland. Stayed in Amsterdam, visited Madurodam and the Keukenhof. At the German border, I was ordered out of my car, because the Polizei didn't like the answers to his questions. In his mind, there was no way in Hades that a 25 YO soldier could afford a brand new Volvo. He spent an hour looking for drugs, and did a number on my Bose sound system.

He was really angry when he said it was ok to leave. What you said, Abe. I've had much better treatment in Texas, getting away with warnings twice, though I was ticketed in El Paso and Arlington. Both cops were surprised when I greeted them with, "yeah, you got me officer."

And who doesn't get nervous when they see a cop following you? That's just part of the human experience, though I will say it doesn't compare to being pulled over for "driving while black."

LongIslandZagFan
06-08-2020, 05:43 PM
Happened to me too. No reason to stop me. Gave me a ticket for 65 in a 60. But they tore my car APART AND WEREN'T NICE ABOUT IT. gave me a ticket and drove off. some cops are simpleton aholes .

Definitely are some that are like that. I've been pulled over by one of those aholes myself.

Considering the power they have to destroy someone's life, or in your case your car, perhaps the qualifications to be a cop need to be a bit higher than they are now. I know plenty of cops who are great people... some a very good friends of mine. I have also met, at a party about 10 years ago, a NYC highway patrol guy who bragged to me about wearing an SS pin on his uniform... he thought it was funny... I was horrified.

Not sure I am pro-defunding or abolishing... but I do think perhaps restructuring and more civilian oversight is needed.

scrooner
06-08-2020, 06:16 PM
It's interesting that we hear that the vast majority of cops are good, and yet the unions that represent them allow bad cops to remain employed and have their records purged. Do these good cops not have a say in union behavior? Or are they okay with the "bad apples" serving beside them? I know in my job we speak up when someone is doing a bad job, or is making our department look bad, and we are relieved when they are let go. Bad coworkers in my department only end up making a lot more work for everyone else.

willandi
06-08-2020, 06:17 PM
Definitely are some that are like that. I've been pulled over by one of those aholes myself.

Considering the power they have to destroy someone's life, or in your case your car, perhaps the qualifications to be a cop need to be a bit higher than they are now. I know plenty of cops who are great people... some a very good friends of mine. I have also met, at a party about 10 years ago, a NYC highway patrol guy who bragged to me about wearing an SS pin on his uniform... he thought it was funny... I was horrified.

Not sure I am pro-defunding or abolishing... but I do think perhaps restructuring and more civilian oversight is needed.

I don't know about defunding either. Some de-militarizing maybe, but when you have 100 cops and 10,000 angry protesters...the added gear helps.
Accountability. When cops shoot, or someone dies, they get suspended, without pay, while the incident is reviewed. The review board should consist of more unaffiliated civilians than cops. If the cops get sued, and lose, the payment comes out of the pension fund.

All brutality claims get investigated within 2-3 days, without exception. If justified, back pay is paid. Reduce the ability of the union to control the investigation.

Get rid of qualified immunity.

Hoopaholic
06-08-2020, 06:42 PM
It's interesting that we hear that the vast majority of cops are good, and yet the unions that represent them allow bad cops to remain employed and have their records purged. Do these good cops not have a say in union behavior? Or are they okay with the "bad apples" serving beside them? I know in my job we speak up when someone is doing a bad job, or is making our department look bad, and we are relieved when they are let go. Bad coworkers in my department only end up making a lot more work for everyone else.
Absolutely false

Unions do not allow bad cops to remain employed-poor management who cant engage in proper investigations in compliance with contractual and state bill of rights and thus arbitrators who find departments failed to provide due process are responsible for bad cops being reinstated

When I was UNION PRESIDENT there was nothing more satisfying than to throw your hands up at a dirty cop and tell them they are screwed because the investigation was done by the books

Unions ensure compliance with a contract nothing more nothing else

scrooner
06-08-2020, 06:42 PM
The argument I've heard for 'defunding the police' is this (and please forgive the rough summary....I'm still trying to understand it myself):

1) There is only a certain amount of money to disperse in a community for all services.
2) You can invest more in social services like schools, mental health services, working conditions, etc., or you can invest more in policing to round up the people who commit crimes due to poor education, lack of mental health services, poverty-level wages, etc.
3) Investing this money in policing has been great for the prison business. The US leads the world in incarceration rate, which should make you really happy if you're a prison corporation. But it hasn't made people in many communities feel any safer. People that live in 'safe communities' are safer because they have better access to good schools, jobs, housing, grocery stores, etc., not because there are lots of police in armor patrolling the area. And people in 'unsafe communities', in addition to other social problems, also have to deal with the threat that additional policing creates in their neighborhood. We've seen how poorly that works.
4) The basic idea is that if you do a better job in helping people out in the first place, you won't need to spend as money on the back end rounding them up and putting them in cages.

Something to consider, for those of you open-minded enough to have read this far:

Incarceration rates show that blacks are locked up at a rate of 5 times that of white people. Do any of you believe that black people, as a race, are 5 times as likely to be born with a criminal mindset?

If not, then WHY do we have this incarceration rate? Is it a) police prejudice, or b) they are born into a situation that more often leads to criminal behavior? Either way, 'defunding the police' (and putting that money to better use, sounds to me like an idea worth exploring.

scrooner
06-08-2020, 06:47 PM
When I was UNION PRESIDENT there was nothing more satisfying than to throw your hands up at a dirty cop and tell them they are screwed because the investigation was done by the books

That anecdote doesn't change what happens in other unions.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/12/how-police-unions-keep-abusive-cops-on-the-street/383258/

Hoopaholic
06-08-2020, 06:50 PM
Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

This will be interesting to follow. He is currently prosecuting 6 other law enforcement officials before this happened he said, so if it's political for optics, he's already made this optic apparent. He's also prosecuting 39 rioters currently I believe he said. I don't know if that is optics too, but he's busy...in the middle of all of this I believe he said.

Re. intent, to many observers it looks like Gugino is returning the helmet so we'll see what is believed as a threat from q man approaching a mass of officers. The DA said they should have cuffed him, not shove him with the baton, so we'll see.

Re. tactics, I have a question on that too; were the officers following orders, and if so, are others to be charged too? If not following orders, then only they are charged? From your writing I perceive you are saying they are following normal tactics and orders. That is some food for thought for me.

Also, as a former Chief of Police, you understand that the DA's office is not the only political player in this equation.

I appreciate our civil tone with each other.

Interesting part on tactics that as the Chief law enforcement officer for the county he or his department approves all use of force tactics for civil unrest and states of emergency situations and I ALWAYS had the DA or his appointee present during our protest/civil unrest engagements so be interesting if Niagara PD did same

As to responsibility: I concur if this was not an approved tactic then the individual officer is subject to the review and determination of intent to harm....however, if the State AG reviewed, State criminal justice agency, Mayor, Pollice Chief all reviewed, all had hand in dressing and approval of tactic then who truly should be held accountable le?

Hoopaholic
06-08-2020, 06:52 PM
That anecdote doesn't change what happens in other unions.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/12/how-police-unions-keep-abusive-cops-on-the-street/383258/

Huh. “all over the U.S., police unions help many of those cops to get their jobs back, often via secretive appeals geared to protect labor rights rather than public safety.”

The first paragraph quote is exactly my point....IF MANAGEMENT had not violated due process and the contract then there would be no appeal to an arbiter


And further as a Chief of Police for 12 years I terminated 19 officers, every single one was upheld...just got the last appeal completed 5 months ago after 6 years of appeals by the officer (not the union)......do the investigation right, provide due process, comply with the technical aspects of a legally binding contract and appeals fail

Hoopaholic
06-08-2020, 07:03 PM
The argument I've heard for 'defunding the police' is this (and please forgive the rough summary....I'm still trying to understand it myself):

1) There is only a certain amount of money to disperse in a community for all services.
2) You can invest more in social services like schools, mental health services, working conditions, etc., or you can invest more in policing to round up the people who commit crimes due to poor education, lack of mental health services, poverty-level wages, etc.
3) Investing this money in policing has been great for the prison business. The US leads the world in incarceration rate, which should make you really happy if you're a prison corporation. But it hasn't made people in many communities feel any safer. People that live in 'safe communities' are safer because they have better access to good schools, jobs, housing, grocery stores, etc., not because there are lots of police in armor patrolling the area. And people in 'unsafe communities', in addition to other social problems, also have to deal with the threat that additional policing creates in their neighborhood. We've seen how poorly that works.
4) The basic idea is that if you do a better job in helping people out in the first place, you won't need to spend as money on the back end rounding them up and putting them in cages.

Something to consider, for those of you open-minded enough to have read this far:

Incarceration rates show that blacks are locked up at a rate of 5 times that of white people. Do any of you believe that black people, as a race, are 5 times as likely to be born with a criminal mindset?

If not, then WHY do we have this incarceration rate? Is it a) police prejudice, or b) they are born into a situation that more often leads to criminal behavior? Either way, 'defunding the police' (and putting that money to better use, sounds to me like an idea worth exploring.

Defunding or reducing a budget is fine

Removal of social issues for law enforcement to deal with would be great

Public that decides in this direction must be ready for
Reduction in manpower available to respond
Increased in response time
Lack of availability to investigate criminal action
Potential for increase in crime

I am also ok with reduction in sentencing for non violent crimes with first offenses being mandated service of some type of work back to community, victim or non profit

I am a big believer in set standard sentencing, no wavering, no up or down by a judge...first offense for this type of crime here is your sentence...second offense. Xxxx. Don’t care if you are rich or poor, white or black you get exact same sentence

I am also a big fan of dedicated funding that must be utilized for training. My last training budget was 575,000 dollars and we could barely cover the 30 different MANDATORY training of one type of another and had to be creative to provide practical scenario training for de-escalation, adrenaline control and other critical aspects of training IMO


Incarceration rate is aligned with criminal activity...we lead the world in violent crime as a whole and property crime numbers is out of this world........less crime less incarceration. Now how to fix the issue of Americans propensity to engage in crime

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/icr.pdf

JokerZag
06-08-2020, 07:13 PM
I eat dinner at my parents house every Wednesday night. Last week we had seafood stir-fry, was fantastic. My mother asked me what institutional and systemic mean, for the life of my $100K education, I could not answer. Bravo for keeping this open.

Zag1203
06-08-2020, 07:38 PM
Hoopaholic,

I am interested in some of your thoughts since you have expertise in this field. As a chief of police, do you feel that the responsibility of officers is too broad? For example, many people request police to solve non-emergency disputes that really just require some authority/arbitrator and not an armed officer (neighbor disputes, noise disturbances, animals on the loose, illegal parking, welfare checks, mental health episodes, etc). I question if armed police officers are the best people for these kinds of issues since we have sometimes seen non-dangerous situations escalate into arrest or sometimes shootings. If these specific duties were delegated to other social groups or services that could theoretically provide a reasonable response time, would it help relieve department costs and officer duties/stress? Ultimately, I don't know if many police officers are trained in social work, but I feel like sometimes the correct response to an unruly minor or a mental health crisis is a social worker and not an armed officer. I appreciate your input as I am trying to learn from the department's perspective.

CB4
06-08-2020, 07:41 PM
Dower sees the pain, frustration and outrage in his hometown.

He feels it.

He’s experienced it firsthand.

What Dower hasn’t seen is what he wants the most: substantive change.

“It never stops happening,” he said. “It happened before my parents were born, my grandparents. Hundreds of years and we’re still here, nothing has really changed. Why?”

Dower twice has been placed in handcuffs, once as a youth playing outside with friends in his neighborhood. He’s been pulled over numerous times, once when officers questioned if he really owned the car he was driving.

On a walk home from Walmart, Dower was surrounded and tossed to the ground by officers claiming he fit the profile of a suspect in an area stabbing.

“I said, ‘What was the profile?’ They said, ‘He was black,’ ” Dower recalled. “My personal experiences, I keep to myself unless somebody asks, but now people do need to hear it and whoever reaches out, I have no problem telling what I’ve been through and let them walk in my shoes.”

Dower, who played at Gonzaga from 2011-14 and professionally overseas before three knee operations in a 2 1/2-year span, said there was one incident during his time in Spokane.

“I was racially profiled in front of other white people,” he said. “I was the only one mistreated in a car full of people. That was the only time. That was handled. I know if it’s happening to me, it’s happening to millions of others, too, and their stories aren’t being heard.”

This was previously posted on here. Spokesman article with Sam Dower.

https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2020/jun/02/former-gonzaga-forward-sam-dower-jr-joins-hometown/

willandi
06-08-2020, 07:47 PM
Defunding or reducing a budget is fine

Removal of social issues for law enforcement to deal with would be great

Public that decides in this direction must be ready for
Reduction in manpower available to respond
Increased in response time
Lack of availability to investigate criminal action
Potential for increase in crime

I am also ok with reduction in sentencing for non violent crimes with first offenses being mandated service of some type of work back to community, victim or non profit

I am a big believer in set standard sentencing, no wavering, no up or down by a judge...first offense for this type of crime here is your sentence...second offense. Xxxx. Don’t care if you are rich or poor, white or black you get exact same sentence

I am also a big fan of dedicated funding that must be utilized for training. My last training budget was 575,000 dollars and we could barely cover the 30 different MANDATORY training of one type of another and had to be creative to provide practical scenario training for de-escalation, adrenaline control and other critical aspects of training IMO


Incarceration rate is aligned with criminal activity...we lead the world in violent crime as a whole and property crime numbers is out of this world........less crime less incarceration. Now how to fix the issue of Americans propensity to engage in crime

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/icr.pdf

How would you feel about legalizing almost all drugs, the hard ones available by prescription , through a pharmacy and quality controlled.

To me, it would mean fewer opioid deaths (although there might be a short term upsurge, but those would quickly die out [pun intended]). Street selling of any amount would be a crime, but as selling of pot here in WA has made street sales almost disappear, it seems that it would do the same with others. It would put the drug trade out of business.
I could see it working for almost all drugs...I'm undecided about Meth, but if people killed themselves, at least they would not bankrupt the family and commit crime to do so. The prescriptions could be tied to a mandatory counseling.
I agree with mandatory sentencing. Of course, the ability to afford a better lawyer would have the result of the charge being lowered.

JokerZag
06-08-2020, 07:58 PM
I'd be interested in Pargo's perspective of the current situation. I believe Few has said he was one of the recruits he was most proud of. South side of Chicago to Spokane.

Hoopaholic
06-09-2020, 02:02 AM
How would you feel about legalizing almost all drugs, the hard ones available by prescription , through a pharmacy and quality controlled.

To me, it would mean fewer opioid deaths (although there might be a short term upsurge, but those would quickly die out [pun intended]). Street selling of any amount would be a crime, but as selling of pot here in WA has made street sales almost disappear, it seems that it would do the same with others. It would put the drug trade out of business.
I could see it working for almost all drugs...I'm undecided about Meth, but if people killed themselves, at least they would not bankrupt the family and commit crime to do so. The prescriptions could be tied to a mandatory counseling.
I agree with mandatory sentencing. Of course, the ability to afford a better lawyer would have the result of the charge being lowered.

First and foremost it is a media driven myth that the black market for marijuana has dried up..... in pierce county alone the sheriff dept has doubled the amount of large scale marijuana seizures and has had to find new storage space for the evidence and other agencies have found this as well

If we make it legal than those who engage should get no public support for their medical issues that they self inflicted by this choice

There is still the undecided gateway argument especially on the harder stuff

As to the theory of less crime I don’t buy that. If they are addicted they are addicted and will do anything to get the money to buy it. Legally it black market so I don’t buy that theory

I fear escalated violence as the removal of a social stigma will cause some to try and some of these drugs are nasty addicting. Once had a man on pcp who literally pulled out of the ground a 8 inch tree swinging it around like it was a baseball bat

Hoopaholic
06-09-2020, 02:10 AM
Hoopaholic,

I am interested in some of your thoughts since you have expertise in this field. As a chief of police, do you feel that the responsibility of officers is too broad? For example, many people request police to solve non-emergency disputes that really just require some authority/arbitrator and not an armed officer (neighbor disputes, noise disturbances, animals on the loose, illegal parking, welfare checks, mental health episodes, etc). I question if armed police officers are the best people for these kinds of issues since we have sometimes seen non-dangerous situations escalate into arrest or sometimes shootings. If these specific duties were delegated to other social groups or services that could theoretically provide a reasonable response time, would it help relieve department costs and officer duties/stress? Ultimately, I don't know if many police officers are trained in social work, but I feel like sometimes the correct response to an unruly minor or a mental health crisis is a social worker and not an armed officer. I appreciate your input as I am trying to learn from the department's perspective.
Quality of life responses have been debated since sir Robert peele

I think there are some that should be pushed aside from sworn to non sworn such as parking animal issues. Code enforcement issues noise etc. even mental health crisis should be responsible to those with special unique skill sets

However society will need to draw clear response expectation as many of these issues go sideways very quickly

Take mental health issues. Is it mental health or psychotropic drugs or a combination of both? One does not know until you arrive and assess the. It might be too late

Take the loud noise. Send non sworn there knock on door and get greeted by an angry husband who was beating his wife

I am a supporter of quick response to graffiti broken or damaged property by non law enforcement as blight begets blight which sends a signal of non caring

vandalzag
06-09-2020, 05:47 AM
Happened to me too. No reason to stop me. Gave me a ticket for 65 in a 60. But they tore my car APART AND WEREN'T NICE ABOUT IT. gave me a ticket and drove off. some cops are simpleton aholes .

The difference between the 2 is you were stopped for speeding. He was pulled over for no reason and told they wanted to let him know his tabs were expiring in 3 months. Big diffeerence. Been driving for 35 years never been pulled over to let me know my tabs would soon be expiring.

willandi
06-09-2020, 06:26 AM
A post shared by a friend of mine on Facebook.

This is what systemic racism looks like. Being dismissed with the usual disclaimers that are never used for whites...

Lekesha Benson
tJeune 4s rSoiaponnslomut o4toole:r4ne9 gfAMd
I don’t like to talk about this, but I feel that it’s a perfect example of systematic racism. My healthy 19 year old son told me he thought he was having a heart attack. He looked fine-I thought he was joking, but he said he was serious & that he’d collapsed outside. Without another word, I grabbed my keys, said come on & we went to the ER. They took him straight back & a doctor never came in to see him. As a woman who has sickle cell anemia, I have more experience than most with going to the hospital, and have NEVER only seen a nurse practitioner but I was told that was normal, so it may be. She came in & asked a normal battery of questions, including asking if he smoked or did drugs. He answered. But then she asked him again if he smoked or did drugs. And I went off. I explained to her that I wasn’t sure if my 19 year old had ever smoked weed, but I could assure her that’s not what he was doing at home with his momma, so can we move forward & find out why his chest hurts. I was FURIOUS. They took blood, did an ekg, sent us home in a really quick amount of time. But when she comes back in with his results, the first thing that (insert cuss word-I want to cuss so bad), was, “well your toxicology screens were clear.” ����Who was ever concerned about that!!!! If you know my children, you know that I have some of the most well mannered, well spoken, respectful young men on the planet. And if you know me as a parent, you know I am the opposite of all that when it comes to my children. I wanted to show my complete ass. I cut her off & asked about his other results. I was there the entire time-so I know they knew his entire medical history & mine & his father’s, & everything. Anyway, she shrugged, said his heart was healthier than hers & said she diagnosed him with anxiety, (without asking the first question about his feelings or anything to determine that he had anxiety). I followed up with his Dr. because I felt that woman saw a young black man & assumed he did drugs. Now with two medical professionals stating he had anxiety & no cardiologist referral, we resume life as normal & then one day, while playing basketball with friends, his heart stops. After waiting 5 months for an autopsy I am told that his death was preventable had medical professionals ordered the correct tests that 1 time that he showed a symptom. That 19 yr olds rarely have heart attacks, but can have heart defects & the fact that he collapsed was THE telltale sign. A simple order for a test or referral to a cardiologist could’ve saved his life. Now, let’s rewind to the experience I had with a younger white child that I know was smoking weed & went to the ER for chest pains & they kept him overnight for observation.

This is how systemic racism works. You’re not listened to, dismissed, & overlooked. This is why more black women die giving birth. I suspect it’s one of the reasons black people are dying at higher rates from COVID.

Now let me move on to the rioting & looting that no one understands. The day that my physician told me my son’s death was preventable & that I should sue, I came home & sat in my car & thought about going up the road & blowing the hospital up. I cannot express to you how serious I am when I tell you I meant it. I wanted to burn it down. I didn’t care about who’s mother, father, lover, or friend was in there. I wanted to light it up. It was 5pm & I walked in my house & went to bed-to stop myself from going to jail. I spoke to a lawyer-but the rage I felt at discussing this was so unhealthy, that I chose to ignore it until I could do so without committing homocide. I still would gladly go to jail the day I see that woman again. Racism is more than ppl calling you nigger. It’s getting pulled over & asked whose car you’re driving if it’s nice. It’s being asked repeatedly about drugs you don’t use. It’s going to the doctor & making complaints repeatedly & never having tests done that could save your life when your counterparts don’t complain & get them. It’s being ignored, dismissed, overlooked, & corrected when you’re correct! Its being told things aren’t racist from people who’ve never experienced racism. It’s being told all lives matter, when the country has shown you that your black one doesn’t matter to them. It’s having your entire history told on the news when you’re the victim, but not that of your killer. It’s knowing when white kids shoot up schools & the news reporting them as being bullied, but black kids are thugs & go to jail until 21 for getting in a fight. It’s all the things you don’t know that happen because it will never happen to you-which is why we call it white privilege. Use it to help your friends who live without it, everyday. #nola The NOLA Network #nootherlifeaffected

Markburn1
06-09-2020, 07:42 AM
Will,

My son is white. Everything that happened at the hospital was EXACTLY what happened to my son and I. Anxiety happens. It’s fairly common and the first thing they need to establish is that no drugs are involved. Parents are sometimes the last to know.

Blaming her son’s death on racism is wrong. Even blaming it on what might be perceived as incompetence by the nurse practitioners is usually wrong as well.

Having the thought that burning down the hospital and killing innocent people is way too toxic. Comparing that to looters and rioters doing it ostensibly in George Floyd’s name is insane.

Markburn1
06-09-2020, 07:59 AM
The difference between the 2 is you were stopped for speeding. He was pulled over for no reason and told they wanted to let him know his tabs were expiring in 3 months. Big diffeerence. Been driving for 35 years never been pulled over to let me know my tabs would soon be expiring.

Another instance where it's not necessarily racism.

My wife was pulled over for an equally absurd reason. We had recently purchased a used truck. The previous owner, while putting the tags on the plate each year, put the tab that is left after attaching the sticker on the side of the license plate. Actually looked kind of cool with all the different colors. THAT was the reason he stopped her. He then proceeded to ask her a series of questions about what she was doing, where she was going, where was she before, etc. Then told her to be on her way like nothing happened. She's white.

Markburn1
06-09-2020, 08:26 AM
Quality of life responses have been debated since sir Robert peele

I think there are some that should be pushed aside from sworn to non sworn such as parking animal issues. Code enforcement issues noise etc. even mental health crisis should be responsible to those with special unique skill sets

However society will need to draw clear response expectation as many of these issues go sideways very quickly

Take mental health issues. Is it mental health or psychotropic drugs or a combination of both? One does not know until you arrive and assess the. It might be too late

Take the loud noise. Send non sworn there knock on door and get greeted by an angry husband who was beating his wife

I am a supporter of quick response to graffiti broken or damaged property by non law enforcement as blight begets blight which sends a signal of non caring

Correct.

What is it that people really want when they say they want to defund the police? They want to set up a community structure that replaces the police with their own people in charge. It will take a New York Minute from there to a community mafia that controls all legal and illegal activity. Rival clans will establish themselves in charge quicker than you can say warlord. Tyranny will reign and there will be fewer or no cops to respond when things get out of hand.

scrooner
06-09-2020, 08:44 AM
https://i.ibb.co/fFQJ285/Untitled.jpg

CB4
06-09-2020, 08:48 AM
Correct.

What is it that people really want when they say they want to defund the police? They want to set up a community structure that replaces the police with their own people in charge. It will take a New York Minute from there to a community mafia that controls all legal and illegal activity. Rival clans will establish themselves in charge quicker than you can say warlord. Tyranny will reign and there will be fewer or no cops to respond when things get out of hand.

Rival gangs, community mafia, warlord, tyranny?

Good Lord...

zagfan24
06-09-2020, 08:51 AM
Will,

My son is white. Everything that happened at the hospital was EXACTLY what happened to my son and I. Anxiety happens. It’s fairly common and the first thing they need to establish is that no drugs are involved. Parents are sometimes the last to know.

Blaming her son’s death on racism is wrong. Even blaming it on what might be perceived as incompetence by the nurse practitioners is usually wrong as well.

Having the thought that burning down the hospital and killing innocent people is way too toxic. Comparing that to looters and rioters doing it ostensibly in George Floyd’s name is insane.

Anecdotes aside, there is ample empirical evidence that racial minorities receive less analgesia, less prompt treatment, and are less often referred to a higher level of care even when controlling for SES and insurance type. Implicit racial bias affects nearly everyone. "Blaming a death on racism" isn't the same as acknowledging that, on a large scale, racial minorities often face barriers to receiving equitable healthcare.

Markburn1
06-09-2020, 08:53 AM
Who decides what level of funding is overfunding? Who decides how to redistribute the Budget and what is "FAIR".

Who will be the one to decide what is criminal and what isn't and which laws to enforce? Is there anybody that is qualified to be a mental health social worker doctor teacher dude?

We have thrown trillions of dollars at schools, hospitals,services, etc. yet here we are. Again, who decides what is more important than any other program? That's why we have elected officials.

Your post is platitudes that will work in a perfect society. There isn't one on this planet.

Markburn1
06-09-2020, 08:54 AM
Rival gangs, community mafia, warlord, tyranny?

Good Lord...

See Baltimore for recent history when the police stood down.