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Zagdawg
11-14-2019, 01:28 PM
Some good information--

https://www.gonzagabulletin.com/sports/basketball-a-look-at-how-gu-builds-nonconference-schedules/article_5b4764a8-0442-11ea-94da-c3f04d91ad9c.html#utm_source=gonzagabulletin.com&utm_campaign=%2Fnewsletters%2Fheadlines%2F%3F-dc%3D1573765213&utm_medium=email&utm_content=headline

jazzdelmar
11-14-2019, 01:30 PM
Some good information--

https://www.gonzagabulletin.com/sports/basketball-a-look-at-how-gu-builds-nonconference-schedules/article_5b4764a8-0442-11ea-94da-c3f04d91ad9c.html#utm_source=gonzagabulletin.com&utm_campaign=%2Fnewsletters%2Fheadlines%2F%3F-dc%3D1573765213&utm_medium=email&utm_content=headline

Unconvincing. Whole lotta spin. Reads like Roth reporting to the board of trustees.

Zagdawg
11-14-2019, 01:34 PM
Don't know that anyone was trying to convince you of anything jazz......just sharing information for Zag fans.

We know you already have voiced your theory of the Zags scheduling the way they do to try to prop up Fews win/loss record.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

jazzdelmar
11-14-2019, 01:35 PM
Don't know that anyone was trying to convince you of anything jazz......just sharing information for Zag fans.

We know you already have voiced your theory of the Zags scheduling the way they do to try to prop up Fews win/loss record.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

Other than that, it’s dry and uninformative. Did you really learn something new? C’mon.
There are 8 jelly donuts on this year’s OOC schedule. That’s silly. The only good thing you can say about the Dunkin’s is that GU hasn’t provided a reliable way to watch the games.

bartruff1
11-14-2019, 01:38 PM
I don't care for home games that are over in the first 5 minutes....personally I would rather see them lose to a good team than win games by 50 points.....or at least play local cupcakes....

CB4
11-14-2019, 01:39 PM
Unconvincing. Whole lotta spin. Reads like Roth reporting to the board of trustees.

LOL. If Gonzaga wants a home/home with Nevada, SDSU, WSU, and certain Pac-12s, Big 12s, SECs, Big East teams, it's as easy as picking up the phone, penciling in proposed dates, and locking those dates in around March of the next year. There will be some unavailability, but just move down the list. I imagine a call from Gonzaga gets returned pretty quickly. The home/homes with UNC, MSU, etc. require relationships built over years and scheduling with ACC teams presents certain challenges due to their limited flexibility. But the others, seems like a pretty straightforward process. The program seems to be pretty good at locking in home buy games. The challenge, I think, is to get teams like Montana or Air Force to play in the Kennel every year without the expectation of a return game. The North Dakota games are good home games.

Would love to see the Zags play in at least one or more of those promoter-sponsored single neutral site games each year, like the one against Tennessee last year.

Zagdawg
11-14-2019, 01:40 PM
A story written more for the many Zag fans who may not be as familiar with how scheduling works -- nothing wrong with that (not everyone has the amazing jazz level of basketball knowledge).

jazzdelmar
11-14-2019, 01:44 PM
A story written more for the many Zag fans who may not be as familiar with how scheduling works -- nothing wrong with that (not everyone has the amazing jazz level of basketball knowledge).

Granted. Or knowledge about how institutions of higher education really work.

ZagBlue
11-14-2019, 02:05 PM
I don't care for home games that are over in the first 5 minutes....personally I would rather see them lose to a good team than win games by 50 points.....or at least play local cupcakes....

Please note before you read the below that I am not singling our the above post as my response can pretty much be in regards to any on this chain. As such, I tend to only post when I have true experience, insight, or info. In this case, I have been involved with college scheduling previously.
When looking at schedules/scheduling it is IMPERATIVE to remember that every school has an agenda. Some need money so they never play at home in non-conference. Some need as many wins as possible to try and save a coaches job. Some want winnable games but only if a loss is not harmful. I can list plenty more ďsomeĒ examples. The point though is that scheduling is not easy. When you add to the standard obstacles that we at Gonzaga essentially win almost every game and that we are located on the far end of the country, one starts to understand why many power 5 schools wonít travel to us. Another thing to factor in is the area in which coaches want exposure to recruits. Letís be honest here, do you think most power schools not directly on the west coast expect to land a recruit from Washington? No. So why travel to Spokane to almost assuredly lose and gain nothing from it.
All of the above is why we rarely see mediocre power 5 teams on our schedule. I think the program has done a masterful job of locking Gonzaga into these strong Thanksgiving tournaments and convincing strong programs to play home and homes.

I do agree though that it would be fantastic to try and schedule a neutral shootout against a power team regularly just like we had with Tennessee.

jazzdelmar
11-14-2019, 02:11 PM
Please note before you read the below that I am not singling our the above post as my response can pretty much be in regards to any on this chain. As such, I tend to only post when I have true experience, insight, or info. In this case, I have been involved with college scheduling previously.
When looking at schedules/scheduling it is IMPERATIVE to remember that every school has an agenda. Some need money so they never play at home in non-conference. Some need as many wins as possible to try and save a coaches job. Some want winnable games but only if a loss is not harmful. I can list plenty more “some” examples. The point though is that scheduling is not easy. When you add to the standard obstacles that we at Gonzaga essentially win almost every game and that we are located on the far end of the country, one starts to understand why many power 5 schools won’t travel to us. Another thing to factor in is the area in which coaches want exposure to recruits. Let’s be honest here, do you think most power schools not directly on the west coast expect to land a recruit from Washington? No. So why travel to Spokane to almost assuredly lose and gain nothing from it.
All of the above is why we rarely see mediocre power 5 teams on our schedule. I think the program has done a masterful job of locking Gonzaga into these strong Thanksgiving tournaments and convincing strong programs to play home and homes.

I do agree though that it would be fantastic to try and schedule a neutral shootout against a power team regularly just like we had with Tennessee.

Well put. The TG tourneys are great as are a handful of OOC games vs blue bloods. But scheduling is more art than science and I believe playing eight cupcakes even in a year that could be down is not acceptable to a top 10 program. GU can’t have it both ways. If it’s a top 10 program, and I believe it is, it can’t hide behind the halcyon cry of no one will play us. Nova went into Saint John arena last night and got waxed. So what?

CB4
11-14-2019, 02:21 PM
The only reason I can think of for the 8 annual home cupcakes is Gonzaga seems to really like the concession revenue and reduced travel that come with the extra couple home games. If they cut the cupcakes from 8 to 4 there would be 2 less home games per year, unless they can convince some good teams to some 2 and 1 deals or 2 and 2 with the second away game being a neutral site in the other team's geographic area.

Drop 4 of the cupcakes, add a standing neutral game against Memphis/Houston/Tennessee/Kentucky/etc. in Houston or Dallas, add WSU back to the home/home rotation, schedule a standing home/home with UCLA/USC and try to get a 2 and 1 deal with a solid MWC team or mid-major and boom, we have a 5 star schedule that gels with our five star recruits.

Ideally, we could just schedule home games against Portland and Pacific as the first two games of the year, then play two other teams from the MWC or AAC in February, but that's unlikely (though some other conferences are now experimenting with November conference games).

TexasZagFan
11-14-2019, 02:38 PM
I feel for the season ticket holders, who pay a lot of money to support the program. You wouldn't hear so much griping if the WCC was more competitive.

I was a UTEP season ticket holder during the 80s. Haskins was given a break about OOC, because the WAC was so damn good back then. The formula for winning the league was simple: win your home games, split your road games. The cellar dweller back then was the Air Force Academy, but that road game gave opposing coaches fits, too.

It's going to be tougher to schedule home and home series with Power 5 conferences, now that they've extended their conference season.

jazzdelmar
11-14-2019, 02:46 PM
End of the day I count about 8, maybe 10, meaningful, competitive games this season. That’s a paltry number for such a spectacular program. IMO, that’s a major disconnect, one that needs to be rectified going forward.

CB4
11-14-2019, 03:04 PM
Colorado, Baylor, Texas Tech, Oregon and Utah State are ranked right now. Presumably these teams will be good next year too. If Gonzaga actually wanted to schedule a more challenging schedule (with more travel), would it really be that difficult to have an assistant set up a call between ADs and/or coaches for next week, have the conference call, say some nice things about each other's programs, make a joke about the assistant for (insert team) drinking too much at last year's final four coaches' meeting (or ask about golf or the weather or something) and then eventually see if the team wants to play some games? After that call it seems like they'd just need to email some dates back and forth, tentatively agree on the Fall/Winter 2020 game date, then lock the games in at some point in the spring...

Am I completely dumbing this process down? I think this is pretty much how it would go down if Gonzaga wanted better games.

Edit: I guess they'd probably have to copy ESPN to the emails, or something. But I think generally speaking they could lock in a deal with any of those teams then let ESPN know and get the specific date and time figured out...

jazzdelmar
11-14-2019, 03:09 PM
Colorado, Baylor, Texas Tech, Oregon and Utah State are ranked right now. Presumably these teams will be good next year too. If Gonzaga actually wanted to schedule a more challenging schedule (with more travel), would it really be that difficult to have an assistant set up a call between ADs and/or coaches for next week, have the conference call, say some nice things about each other's programs, make a joke about the assistant for (insert team) drinking too much at last year's final four coaches' meeting (or ask about golf or the weather or something) and then eventually see if the team wants to play some games? After that call it seems like they'd just need to email some dates back and forth, tentatively agree on the Fall/Winter 2020 game date, then lock the games in at some point in the spring...

Am I completely dumbing this process down? I think this is pretty much how it would go down if Gonzaga wanted better games.

CB, the job is yours. You clearly have a gift for the work.

CB4
11-14-2019, 03:22 PM
CB, the job is yours. You clearly have a gift for the work.

I can even do more complex four-way deals. Hey Texas Tech/Baylor, how about we'll come down there and play you both on a Thursday/Saturday and, if you want, I can bring along my redheaded stepchild Saint Mary's or my adopted son from BYU and they can play you on the other day? What do you say? Saint Mary's birth dad, Randy, is a little prickly, but he's all right. Sorry about their house.And we're sorry but our son BYU doesn't play on Sundays, but their house is beautiful! But for the return game, whaddasay say you stop by SLC or San Francisco and play one of these little guys before/after your game in the Kennel against us?

jazzdelmar
11-14-2019, 03:27 PM
I can even do more complex four-way deals. Hey Texas Tech/Baylor, how about we'll come down there and play you both on a Thursday/Saturday and, if you want, I can bring along my redheaded stepchild Saint Mary's or my adopted son from BYU and they can play you on the other day? What do you say? Saint Mary's birth dad, Randy, is a little prickly, but he's all right. Sorry about their house.And we're sorry but our son BYU doesn't play on Sundays, but their house is beautiful! But for the return game, whaddasay say you stop by SLC or San Francisco and play one of these little guys before/after your game in the Kennel against us?

Now you’re showing off.

Malastein
11-14-2019, 03:33 PM
I don't care for home games that are over in the first 5 minutes....personally I would rather see them lose to a good team than win games by 50 points.....or at least play local cupcakes....

This.

LongIslandZagFan
11-14-2019, 03:48 PM
SMDH... And we wonder why a lot of people stopped posting here.

OntZags
11-14-2019, 05:13 PM
End of the day I count about 8, maybe 10, meaningful, competitive games this season. That’s a paltry number for such a spectacular program. IMO, that’s a major disconnect, one that needs to be rectified going forward.

Like it or not there is a method to their madness and their scheduling is one of the reasons they are consistently getting higher seeds than they ever have.

Gonzaga as a program gets the benefit of the doubt these days. The program has arrived and has that brand name recognition come seeding time, especially with the weakened West of late.

So the formula appears to be go to the most prestigious tourney every season (a virtual lock for them by not being in a power conference), schedule 4-6 other good to great OOC games depending on seasonal strength and fill the rest with cupcakes that you utterly smash and don't hurt you on the advanced analytics side. (instead of risking an upset ala UK/SMC/Pitt against a 75-150 team that you might stumble on early)

You may not like it but there is a tremendous amount of logic in it.

CB4
11-14-2019, 05:55 PM
Like it or not there is a method to their madness and their scheduling is one of the reasons they are consistently getting higher seeds than they ever have.

Gonzaga as a program gets the benefit of the doubt these days. The program has arrived and has that brand name recognition come seeding time, especially with the weakened West of late.

So the formula appears to be go to the most prestigious tourney every season (a virtual lock for them by not being in a power conference), schedule 4-6 other good to great OOC games depending on seasonal strength and fill the rest with cupcakes that you utterly smash and don't hurt you on the advanced analytics side. (instead of risking an upset ala UK/SMC/Pitt against a 75-150 team that you might stumble on early)

You may not like it but there is a tremendous amount of logic in it.

If the goal is to get the highest seed every year then you're likely 100 percent correct.

I think about, with scheduling, things like TV exposure, providing real value to season ticket holders, being able to sell 5 star west coast recruits on why they should choose Gonzaga over USC, as an example, based on what could be characterized as an "inverted P5 schedule" if Gonzaga truly stacked the nonconference season with decent games. I would think that if Gonzaga did everything to mitigate against the real perception that Gonzaga doesn't play a P5 schedule, they'd get better recruits. Yes I know Suggs might join the program and there are the internationals. Suggs is the exception, the internationals are due to good old fashion hard work of the coaching staff.

Markburn1
11-14-2019, 07:05 PM
SMDH... And we wonder why a lot of people stopped posting here.

????

Sincere question. Why would anyone be annoyed with this conversation?

CB4
11-14-2019, 07:11 PM
????

Sincere question. Why would anyone be annoyed with this conversation?

Anti-establishment banter from peasant dissidents.

Markburn1
11-14-2019, 07:18 PM
Anti-establishment banter from peasant dissidents.

Well, it's definitely more interesting than the article posted. I was looking for the guy from "MY PILLOW" there was so much fluff in that thing.

CB4
11-14-2019, 07:51 PM
Well, it's definitely more interesting than the article posted. I was looking for the guy from "MY PILLOW" there was so much fluff in that thing.

Yeah. The interesting thing is scheduling philosophy. There are infinite roads to the promise land. Reasonable minds can differ. The conversation, in my opinion, is interesting.

GonzagasaurusFlex
11-15-2019, 12:29 AM
Like it or not there is a method to their madness and their scheduling is one of the reasons they are consistently getting higher seeds than they ever have.

Gonzaga as a program gets the benefit of the doubt these days. The program has arrived and has that brand name recognition come seeding time, especially with the weakened West of late.

So the formula appears to be go to the most prestigious tourney every season (a virtual lock for them by not being in a power conference), schedule 4-6 other good to great OOC games depending on seasonal strength and fill the rest with cupcakes that you utterly smash and don't hurt you on the advanced analytics side. (instead of risking an upset ala UK/SMC/Pitt against a 75-150 team that you might stumble on early)

You may not like it but there is a tremendous amount of logic in it.

I much prefer the foundational philosophy that got Gonzaga here in the first place - anyone, anytime, anywhere - over this cautious approach in a heartbeat.

This is great board banter here all around imo; I don’t get how/why anyone could be offended by this. Hell jazz got me laughing out loud with his “now you’re just showing off” comment. I agree w him, CB4, you gotta go out and get this scheduling job asap!

Malastein
11-15-2019, 12:49 AM
I much prefer the foundational philosophy that got Gonzaga here in the first place - anyone, anytime, anywhere - over this cautious approach in a heartbeat.

This is great board banter here all around imo; I don’t get how/why anyone could be offended by this. Hell jazz got me laughing out loud with his “now you’re just showing off” comment. I agree w him, CB4, you gotta go out and get this scheduling job asap!

There’s a balance between a murderer’s row of non conference opponents, and having a balance between between easier teams, mid tier, and solid opponents. Not sure what the Zags projected SOS is, but I’d prefer it to be in the 25-50th toughest nationally range.

CB4
11-15-2019, 01:20 AM
No one is asking for a blue blood only schedule. Replace Arkansas Pine Bluffs with WSU, Texas-Arlington with Colorado or virtually any other Pac 12 school, CSUB with SDSU or some decent MWC or AAC school, and Detroit with Tennessee or Memphis and I'd gladly shut up each year.

That being said I'd be down for a year of murderers row. If we could line up the top 10 teams to fill 10 of the 12 or so nonconference spots I think that's be awesome for the program

jazzdelmar
11-15-2019, 02:17 AM
Self appointed keepers of the flame, bless their hearts, are threatened by any remotely critical thought.

JPtheBeasta
11-15-2019, 06:42 AM
The more good games, the better, but cupcakes help the team work on things.

The complaints of season ticket holders who donít get to see enough marquee matchups is probably a legitimate complaint for someone who has been swimming in that water for a while, because itís human nature (and something I have experienced multiple times in other areas), but it has shades of Latrell Sprewell turning down $21 million over 3 years because he had mouths to feed.

I want to go on record saying that Iím happy with the Zags, cupcakes and all. You canít have cheesecake every day without finding problems with that, too.

gueastcoast
11-15-2019, 06:53 AM
Self appointed keepers of the flame, bless their hearts, are threatened by any remotely critical thought.

Agreed, think this is a topic where we can maintain and debate legitimate differences of opinion. I will confess that I am conflicted and able to see all sides of the issue. The one thing I feel strongly about is if we are to schedule any number of cupcakes (whether it be a small or large number) I'd prefer they include at least a few teams of regional interest. I have no doubt there are reasons (here are a few: $, $, $, $) we don't but I think scheduling a few regional opponents is a fan-pleasing move and worth considering.

I say this as someone who only lived in Spokane for college, and have lived in New York City for 25+ years...but I know if I were a season ticket holder I'd rather see EWU (say) than UT Arlington.

Markburn1
11-15-2019, 07:56 AM
.but I know if I were a season ticket holder I'd rather see EWU (say) than UT Arlington.

At least one or the other. This year you have both.

gueastcoast
11-15-2019, 07:59 AM
At least one or the other. This year you have both.

Yeah my bad - bad example since we do have EWU back on the sked. Insert Idaho, Montana, WSU, etc....

gonzagafan62
11-15-2019, 08:03 AM
Self appointed keepers of the flame, bless their hearts, are threatened by any remotely critical thought.

Nah it’s just one that you’re either on one side or the other and neither can change the others minds. It’s pretty simple actually

Markburn1
11-15-2019, 08:10 AM
Nah it’s just one that you’re either on one side or the other and neither can change the others minds. It’s pretty simple actually

I posit one can be on either side and still not be offended.

gueastcoast
11-15-2019, 08:26 AM
I posit one can be on either side and still not be offended.

+1

SorenTodd45
11-15-2019, 08:26 AM
, add WSU back to the home/home rotation

Would actually like to see a 3 year rotation on that; one game in the Kennel, one game at Friel Court, and one game at the Spokane Arena. But make sure the students are not on break.


schedule a standing home/home with UCLA/USC .

Would love to see that; that way I could have more chances to see the Zags play in person.

Ladyzag12
11-15-2019, 08:30 AM
Well put. The TG tourneys are great as are a handful of OOC games vs blue bloods. But scheduling is more art than science and I believe playing eight cupcakes even in a year that could be down is not acceptable to a top 10 program. GU canít have it both ways. If itís a top 10 program, and I believe it is, it canít hide behind the halcyon cry of no one will play us. Nova went into Saint John arena last night and got waxed. So what?

This is a pretty misinformed take. Gonzaga has to walk a careful line when scheduling. For example, Villanova losing yesterday to the Buckeyes was part of a Big 10 Big East schedule. We don't have a conference that can offer those sorts of games in negotiations. Gonzaga also has to be careful because our conference is so bad that we cannot risk losing too many games, otherwise it ruins our at large bids. Finally, Gonzaga's location and limited ticket revenue makes true home and homes difficult in terms of finance and logistics. Gonzaga is a unique position in that most top teams are in power conferences so their out of conference schedules doesn't matter that much and 5-6 losses doesn't crush their chances at a top seed.

Ladyzag12
11-15-2019, 08:39 AM
If the goal is to get the highest seed every year then you're likely 100 percent correct.

I think about, with scheduling, things like TV exposure, providing real value to season ticket holders, being able to sell 5 star west coast recruits on why they should choose Gonzaga over USC, as an example, based on what could be characterized as an "inverted P5 schedule" if Gonzaga truly stacked the nonconference season with decent games. I would think that if Gonzaga did everything to mitigate against the real perception that Gonzaga doesn't play a P5 schedule, they'd get better recruits. Yes I know Suggs might join the program and there are the internationals. Suggs is the exception, the internationals are due to good old fashion hard work of the coaching staff.

Slightly off topic, but we will never get recruits that are considering USC or UCLA in Southern California. The whole AAU circuit down there is a giant corrupt feeder to both of those programs, or whichever one at the time is willing to play ball with the local AAU war lords.

FlyZag
11-15-2019, 09:14 AM
Other than that, itís dry and uninformative. Did you really learn something new? Címon.
There are 8 jelly donuts on this yearís OOC schedule. Thatís silly. The only good thing you can say about the Dunkinís is that GU hasnít provided a reliable way to watch the games.

actually yes, I learned there were only 2 buy games. I thought it would be WAAAAY more than that. (at least I think that's what I read)

LongIslandZagFan
11-15-2019, 09:27 AM
????

Sincere question. Why would anyone be annoyed with this conversation?

Not the conversation... the tone right out of the gate. But hey, by all means, discuss... trash the OP/article... whatever. You guys on the negative side are winning... the number of people posting and visiting the site continue to drop. Eventually, you'll be talking to yourselves.

Spike#1
11-15-2019, 09:39 AM
Not the conversation... the tone right out of the gate. But hey, by all means, discuss... trash the OP/article... whatever. You guys on the negative side are winning... the number of people posting and visiting the site continue to drop. Eventually, you'll be talking to yourselves.

Truth.

jazzdelmar
11-15-2019, 09:42 AM
This is a pretty misinformed take. Gonzaga has to walk a careful line when scheduling. For example, Villanova losing yesterday to the Buckeyes was part of a Big 10 Big East schedule. We don't have a conference that can offer those sorts of games in negotiations. Gonzaga also has to be careful because our conference is so bad that we cannot risk losing too many games, otherwise it ruins our at large bids. Finally, Gonzaga's location and limited ticket revenue makes true home and homes difficult in terms of finance and logistics. Gonzaga is a unique position in that most top teams are in power conferences so their out of conference schedules doesn't matter that much and 5-6 losses doesn't crush their chances at a top seed.

That’s about as negative a post as there has been on this thread. Congrats. But an exquisite explanation of why GU stays in the WCC, and its automatic bid.

Markburn1
11-15-2019, 09:43 AM
This is a pretty misinformed take. Gonzaga has to walk a careful line when scheduling. For example, Villanova losing yesterday to the Buckeyes was part of a Big 10 Big East schedule. We don't have a conference that can offer those sorts of games in negotiations. Gonzaga also has to be careful because our conference is so bad that we cannot risk losing too many games, otherwise it ruins our at large bids. Finally, Gonzaga's location and limited ticket revenue makes true home and homes difficult in terms of finance and logistics. Gonzaga is a unique position in that most top teams are in power conferences so their out of conference schedules doesn't matter that much and 5-6 losses doesn't crush their chances at a top seed.

This is called protectionism. Gonzaga worked extremely hard to put themselves in the position they are in, namely a legit top fifteen team on an annual basis. They didn't do that by gaming the system. They played tough schedules and got their butts kicked from time to time, but eventually started beating some of those Power teams. They shouldn't be afraid of anybody these days. If they take a couple losses, so what. And if they think they are a legit contender for Final Fours (they are), they should play a schedule that is commensurate with that status. Padding the schedule to make the tournament or to get a better seed smacks of Syracuse. I don't think that's what the fanbase wants and I don't think Coach Few, the one that took bold steps to get where they are, wants that either.

jazzdelmar
11-15-2019, 09:49 AM
If posts are down overall, then imo itís more because unorthodox views are quickly excoriated by the keepers, not that candid views of various aspects of Gonzagaís wonderful program may be increasing. Example, one common rebuke by the keepers is to ask for the provenance of the posterís fandom, a loyalty test so to speak, as if a real GU graduate would just never speak ill of the program.

jazzdelmar
11-15-2019, 09:51 AM
This is called protectionism. Gonzaga worked extremely hard to put themselves in the position they are in, namely a legit top fifteen team on an annual basis. They didn't do that by gaming the system. They played tough schedules and got their butts kicked from time to time, but eventually started beating some of those Power teams. They shouldn't be afraid of anybody these days. If they take a couple losses, so what. And if they think they are a legit contender for Final Fours (they are), they should play a schedule that is commensurate with that status. Padding the schedule to make the tournament or to get a better seed smacks of Syracuse. I don't think that's what the fanbase wants and I don't think Coach Few, the one that took bold steps to get where they are, wants that either.

Marko, you had me until your last clause. Are you sure?

Markburn1
11-15-2019, 10:01 AM
Marko, you had me until your last clause. Are you sure?

Haha. No.

But, I sincerely hope so.

LongIslandZagFan
11-15-2019, 10:46 AM
If posts are down overall, then imo it’s more because unorthodox views are quickly excoriated by the keepers, not that candid views of various aspects of Gonzaga’s wonderful program may be increasing. Example, one common rebuke by the keepers is to ask for the provenance of the poster’s fandom, a loyalty test so to speak, as if a real GU graduate would just never speak ill of the program.

let me know when you have been banned or stopped from posting. What is interesting is that it is ok for you to be negative about just about everything but others can’t be negative about the negativity. Fine. I’m done with this thread. Just pointing out that it’s the tone that drives people away.

Kiddwell
11-15-2019, 10:57 AM
...vs. Notre Dame?



:]

jazzdelmar
11-15-2019, 11:02 AM
...vs. Notre Dame?



:]


These guys? A lock.

https://www.ndnu.edu/

Mr Vulture
11-15-2019, 11:03 AM
Unconvincing. Whole lotta spin. Reads like Roth reporting to the board of trustees.

Is there anything with this program that doesn't cause you to be negative? Goodness...

jazzdelmar
11-15-2019, 11:07 AM
Is there anything with this program that doesn't cause you to be negative? Goodness...

Sure. The character and integrity of the coaches and players.

GonzagasaurusFlex
11-15-2019, 11:09 AM
Is this a good time to include the oft discussed idea of a J.I.T. - Jesuit Invitational Tournament?

Mr Vulture
11-15-2019, 11:11 AM
Sure. The character and integrity of the coaches and players.

Good response, I'll give you that. :clap:

Markburn1
11-15-2019, 11:15 AM
Is this a good time to include the oft discussed idea of a J.I.T. - Jesuit Invitational Tournament?

I think that would be interesting. But, as long as the Zags keep getting the Bahamas and the Mauis on their schedule it precludes becoming involved in another tournament. Pretty sure only one tourney a year can be scheduled.

Maybe a situation similar to the opening classic like Kentucky, MSU, Duke and Kansas play every year. Perhaps Xavier, Villanova, St. Louis, Zags?

ZagzKrak
11-15-2019, 11:56 AM
Like most GU fans I would love to see us play more middle of the pack P5+BE teams every year, it's always more fun to root on the Zags when they are playing a big name school. The real question here is why would any middle of the pack P5+BE teams want to play us? I think we can all agree that GU would be favored to win just about any home and home against any middle of the pack team, so why would they do it? Just like GU, those teams want to run up some wins in the Non-con...they already have to play the top dogs in their Conf. twice...so if they can grab a win or two against them then they have a chance to get into March. I just think it's a bit comical to think that those teams would just jump at the chance to get a home vs. home with us...there is very little in it for them unless they beat us.

jazzdelmar
11-15-2019, 12:39 PM
Good response, I'll give you that. :clap:

That’s what really matters. Especially these days. I’d throw in the diversity of the team as well.

CB4
11-15-2019, 01:05 PM
Like most GU fans I would love to see us play more middle of the pack P5+BE teams every year, it's always more fun to root on the Zags when they are playing a big name school. The real question here is why would any middle of the pack P5+BE teams want to play us? I think we can all agree that GU would be favored to win just about any home and home against any middle of the pack team, so why would they do it? Just like GU, those teams want to run up some wins in the Non-con...they already have to play the top dogs in their Conf. twice...so if they can grab a win or two against them then they have a chance to get into March. I just think it's a bit comical to think that those teams would just jump at the chance to get a home vs. home with us...there is very little in it for them unless they beat us.

AZ, UW, A&M are happy to play the Zags regularly with the understanding they might split or lose more than they win over the course of a 2 or 4 year series. UNC agreed to a home and home. Teams like to play big nonconference games and the Zags are a great national TV matchup. Even P5 teams don't schedule a clear slate of cupcakes. A look at almost any P5 team schedule will show that they like to play big games too.

Edit: I add that I the obvious other benefit to agreeing to a series with Gonzaga: the opposing team gets to play Gonzaga at their home in front of their fans with the chance to beat the Zags.

Gonzagit
11-15-2019, 02:26 PM
LOL - this thread is hilarious. We could be looking at a 6 game stretch of Southern Miss, Oregon, North Carolina, Tx So, Washington, North Carolina (AGAIN) and there are people on here #####ing about the OOC schedule. We've been to 21 straight tournaments and the E8 3 out of 5 years. Seriously, you guys are clueless.

bartruff1
11-15-2019, 02:28 PM
LOL - this thread is hilarious. We could be looking at a 6 game stretch of Southern Miss, Oregon, North Carolina, Tx So, Washington, North Carolina (AGAIN) and there are people on here #####ing about the OOC schedule. We've been to 21 straight tournaments and the E8 3 out of 5 years. Seriously, you guys are clueless.

Ok Boomer......you do know that more than one thing can be true at the same time....no one is complaining about those things...

Markburn1
11-15-2019, 02:34 PM
LOL - this thread is hilarious. We could be looking at a 6 game stretch of Southern Miss, Oregon, North Carolina, Tx So, Washington, North Carolina (AGAIN) and there are people on here #####ing about the OOC schedule. We've been to 21 straight tournaments and the E8 3 out of 5 years. Seriously, you guys are clueless.

Nice job of cherry picking. Oregon and Carolina are tournament games. Washington, UNC and Arizona are legit.

The rest of the lineup is Alabama State, Arkansas Pine Bluff, North Dakota, Texas Arlington, Cal State Bakersfield, Southern Mississippi, Texas Southern, Eastern Washington and Detroit.

There are legit arguments on both sides of the scheduling. Deciding the rest of the world is clueless is insulting.

Gonzagit
11-15-2019, 03:07 PM
Nice job of cherry picking. Oregon and Carolina are tournament games. Washington, UNC and Arizona are legit.

The rest of the lineup is Alabama State, Arkansas Pine Bluff, North Dakota, Texas Arlington, Cal State Bakersfield, Southern Mississippi, Texas Southern, Eastern Washington and Detroit.

There are legit arguments on both sides of the scheduling. Deciding the rest of the world is clueless is insulting.

Since when did tournament games stop being part of the OOC schedule?

Zagdawg
11-15-2019, 03:07 PM
Some very good games and some easy games mixed in -- looks like another year of scheduling that can get us a 3 seed playing in Spokane in a transition year-- I'll take it and be happy about it.

Gonzagit
11-15-2019, 03:09 PM
Ok Boomer......you do know that more than one thing can be true at the same time....no one is complaining about those things...

Don't get the Boomer reference, I'm not that smart. The only school I got into was Gonzaga.

Gonzagit
11-15-2019, 03:10 PM
Some very good games and some easy games mixed in -- looks like another year of scheduling that can get us a 3 seed playing in Spokane in a transition year-- I'll take it and be happy about it.

Boom

Markburn1
11-15-2019, 03:14 PM
Since when did tournament games stop being part of the OOC schedule?

Disingenuous. Those tournament games are locked in on a yearly basis now. The rest of the OOC is less than desirable and there is no denying that control of those games is in the hands of the AD and the basketball staff.

All the folks on this side of the argument want is to stop playing so many sub 200 teams.

It's like watching Muhammed Ali against Chuck Wepner. Too much blood.

ZagzKrak
11-15-2019, 04:22 PM
AZ, UW, A&M are happy to play the Zags regularly with the understanding they might split or lose more than they win over the course of a 2 or 4 year series. UNC agreed to a home and home. Teams like to play big nonconference games and the Zags are a great national TV matchup. Even P5 teams don't schedule a clear slate of cupcakes. A look at almost any P5 team schedule will show that they like to play big games too.

Edit: I add that I the obvious other benefit to agreeing to a series with Gonzaga: the opposing team gets to play Gonzaga at their home in front of their fans with the chance to beat the Zags.

AZ, UW, UNC are not middle of the pack teams...of course they will play us.

SorenTodd45
11-15-2019, 05:14 PM
Disingenuous. Those tournament games are locked in on a yearly basis now. The rest of the OOC is less than desirable and there is no denying that control of those games is in the hands of the AD and the basketball staff.
All the folks on this side of the argument want is to stop playing so many sub 200 teams.
It's like watching Muhammed Ali against Chuck Wepner. Too much blood.

I like the blood, I like the easy win. And I'm old enough to remember when Muhammed was named Cassius.

The Zags play in a weak conference, so they need the cupcakes to pad the win total. It is what it is. If one doesn't like it, they can always become a UCLA basketball fan. When was the last time they were relevant? Oh yeah, when they beat the Zags in 2006. Talk about luck on that one.

Ladyzag12
11-15-2019, 06:06 PM
Don't get me wrong. I would love to see us play 6 top 25 ooc games. That won't happen for various reasons.

bballbeachbum
11-15-2019, 06:41 PM
interesting thread. I think the out of conference is perfect this year, allowing the new backcourt some room to get comfy. smart imo

CDC84
11-16-2019, 12:50 AM
The thing that 80% of all Zag fans continue to underestimate is how much economics plays a part in non-con scheduling. Gonzaga earns more money playing Arkansas Pine-Pine Bluff to a sold out crowd at the Kennel than North Carolina. They earn more money playing North Dakota at the Kennel than playing Kansas at Spokane Arena despite it being twice as big. As long as that fact continues to exist, expect low majors on the schedule. And plenty of them. It's partly why the program collected close to 15 million bucks in revenue last year....better than all Pac 12 teams (including UCLA and Oregon) besides Arizona. It's not just to give the team a break now and then from their inverted schedule.

I think the hard thing GU faces is games like tonight. How in the hell do you know how Texas A&M is going to be when you schedule them 4 years in advance?? That team was terrible tonight. Even if they were missing a player. It's like the Zags cannot be guaranteed that a non-conference opponent is going to be good unless they play a blueblood, and some of those teams like UK and Duke don't do home and homes with anyone unless their conference dictates it. They need to start a year to year series with a program like Villanova. I suspect once Chris Mack gets Louisville going, they could be another candidate. Teams that make the NCAA's almost every year but are willing to play road games.

willandi
11-16-2019, 08:19 AM
The thing that 80% of all Zag fans continue to underestimate is how much economics plays a part in non-con scheduling. Gonzaga earns more money playing Arkansas Pine-Pine Bluff to a sold out crowd at the Kennel than North Carolina. They earn more money playing North Dakota at the Kennel than playing Kansas at Spokane Arena despite it being twice as big. As long as that fact continues to exist, expect low majors on the schedule. And plenty of them. It's partly why the program collected close to 15 million bucks in revenue last year....better than all Pac 12 teams (including UCLA and Oregon) besides Arizona. It's not just to give the team a break now and then from their inverted schedule.

I think the hard thing GU faces is games like tonight. How in the hell do you know how Texas A&M is going to be when you schedule them 4 years in advance?? That team was terrible tonight. Even if they were missing a player. It's like the Zags cannot be guaranteed that a non-conference opponent is going to be good unless they play a blueblood, and some of those teams like UK and Duke don't do home and homes with anyone unless their conference dictates it. They need to start a year to year series with a program like Villanova. I suspect once Chris Mack gets Louisville going, they could be another candidate. Teams that make the NCAA's almost every year but are willing to play road games.

I agree with ALL of this. Add in the fact that Gonzaga knew they were losing four players off of last years team (it ended up being 5 with Norvell leaving too), had 1 returning starter and 6 incoming freshmen (Ravet is counted here) and nothing lined up in grad transfers, and scheduling the cupcakes is the ONLY thing that makes sense. Imagine if the NC, Arizona, UW were the first games and this young team was thrashed. That would affect their mentality all season.

The other is that most of the posters are confusing what is BEST for the team and the school with what they want to see as fans. The cupcake games are still sold out. Fans will be fans. They will go to the games. The scheduling has to be what is best for the team, and the school.

jazzdelmar
11-16-2019, 08:23 AM
Bottom line, the Zags have 6-8 marquee games to make their March madness bones. If they win 4 or more all is well with respect to an at large. If they win only 2-3, a real possibility, the auto bid is probably only hope. And Randy looks formidable this year. That’s a lot of pressure. And imo not a great strategy. True, there’s always chance of one lifetime achievement bid, but selection Sunday would be nerve wracking.

gueastcoast
11-16-2019, 09:21 AM
CDC I have a question -- and I have always been aware of the $ element -- how does that work exactly? Do some schools pay more than others? My biggest complaint (as noted earlier in the thread) is that I'd rather we dine on local cupcakes (fresher, as not shipped as far!) than no-name schools from hither and yon. I suspect the UTAs, et al pay us bigger $ than Eastern or other regional foes do/would. But how does it actually work? Is it a free market, or overseen/governed in some manner?

ZagsGoZags
11-16-2019, 09:56 AM
what does SMDH mean?
speaking for a few other readers who also might not know, also

CB4
11-16-2019, 09:58 AM
Explain how Gonzaga makes more money playing Arkansas Pine Bluffs than UNC? They have to pay Arkansas Pine Bluffs to come to the Kennel they don't have to pay UNC and the UNC game is on national television.

Markburn1
11-16-2019, 10:33 AM
what does SMDH mean?
speaking for a few other readers who also might not know, also

Shaking My D@#M Head.

It's an expression conveying disgust.

Markburn1
11-16-2019, 10:46 AM
Oregon faced a similar off season like the Zags. Altman rebuilt his team with transfers, freshmen and bench players from last year. The only returnee of any significance was Pritchard.

Their first three games were against Fresno State, Boise State and Memphis with Houston coming up. Memphis is the obvious standout but I think that game was scheduled before Penny showed up and started recruiting like Calipari. The point is, all of those teams were in the category of 80-110 at kenpom. They are all winnable games for the likes of Oregon or Gonzaga. And they all have a hint of danger. Altman knows loads more about his team than Few does at this point and the Zags are probably going to face them in the Bahamas.

As for the revenue aspect, Gonzaga is going to sell out games in Spokane whether they play Fresno State or Texas-San Antonio. A return game in Fresno will likely sell out a 15,000 seat arena and be a road money maker.

This year's schedule is what it is. Can't change it. I'm saying they can do better than that.

One more thing and I'll shut up. Gonzaga forced the WCC to alter their schedule so the Zags wouldn't have to face conference bottom feeders twice. That was alledgedly to bolster schedule strength and avoid the Portland's of the world causing St.Mary's, Byu and the Zags to lose dance tickets and seeding. If those games are replaced by Arkansas Pine-Bluff and Detroit, what's the point?

RenoZag
11-16-2019, 11:00 AM
CDC I have a question -- and I have always been aware of the $ element -- how does that work exactly? Do some schools pay more than others? My biggest complaint (as noted earlier in the thread) is that I'd rather we dine on local cupcakes (fresher, as not shipped as far!) than no-name schools from hither and yon. I suspect the UTAs, et al pay us bigger $ than Eastern or other regional foes do/would. But how does it actually work? Is it a free market, or overseen/governed in some manner?

UTA, Texas Southern, etc., are not the ones doing the paying. . .GU pays them. In Texas Southern's case, they play a slew of "pay for play" games as a revenue source to fund their MBB program.

See this article for additional info on "guarantee games" ( which includes quotes from former GU Director of Basketball Ops, J. Krause )

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2015/04/04/in-search-of-opponents-some-mens-college-hoops-coaches-try-speed-dating-event/

"Buy" Games impacted former GU head coach Dan Monson, as mentioned in this LAT story from 2015:

https://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-ncaa-coach-contract-20150124-story.html

bballbeachbum
11-17-2019, 10:42 AM
Oregon faced a similar off season like the Zags. Altman rebuilt his team with transfers, freshmen and bench players from last year. The only returnee of any significance was Pritchard.

Their first three games were against Fresno State, Boise State and Memphis with Houston coming up. Memphis is the obvious standout but I think that game was scheduled before Penny showed up and started recruiting like Calipari. The point is, all of those teams were in the category of 80-110 at kenpom. They are all winnable games for the likes of Oregon or Gonzaga. And they all have a hint of danger. Altman knows loads more about his team than Few does at this point and the Zags are probably going to face them in the Bahamas.

As for the revenue aspect, Gonzaga is going to sell out games in Spokane whether they play Fresno State or Texas-San Antonio. A return game in Fresno will likely sell out a 15,000 seat arena and be a road money maker.

This year's schedule is what it is. Can't change it. I'm saying they can do better than that.

One more thing and I'll shut up. Gonzaga forced the WCC to alter their schedule so the Zags wouldn't have to face conference bottom feeders twice. That was alledgedly to bolster schedule strength and avoid the Portland's of the world causing St.Mary's, Byu and the Zags to lose dance tickets and seeding. If those games are replaced by Arkansas Pine-Bluff and Detroit, what's the point?

please don't shut up

on the scheduling, Few navigates the out of conference scheduling conundrum GU faces with its WCC schedule pretty well seems to me over the years. Altman can get big wins later in the year in the Pac vs. Washington twice, Colorado twice, Arizona twice, then in the Pac12 tourney...GU gets SMC in the usual duel. So the risk of big losses early is greater for GU than for Oregon who can still recover their chips, my take on it. And on the development side, with a new backcourt and all that, the risk rises higher. Still makes total sense to me the way this season is scheduled because of this.

gueastcoast
11-17-2019, 11:41 AM
UTA, Texas Southern, etc., are not the ones doing the paying. . .GU pays them. In Texas Southern's case, they play a slew of "pay for play" games as a revenue source to fund their MBB program.

See this article for additional info on "guarantee games" ( which includes quotes from former GU Director of Basketball Ops, J. Krause )

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2015/04/04/in-search-of-opponents-some-mens-college-hoops-coaches-try-speed-dating-event/

"Buy" Games impacted former GU head coach Dan Monson, as mentioned in this LAT story from 2015:

https://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-ncaa-coach-contract-20150124-story.html

Yes...I do recall that's why Texas Southern travels so extensively, for the cash...

So how do WE benefit by playing a team like that vs. a comparably rated (200+) team of local interest? That is why I've never understood the approach.

JPtheBeasta
11-17-2019, 11:45 AM
A lighter schedule makes sense this year. Confidence is important. Being able to slowly install new things without shaking the confidence of the team is more important this year than many in recent memory, it seems to me.

CB4
11-17-2019, 11:47 AM
So with 8 cupcakes, based on the article's market rates, the Zags would have paid out between $400,000 to $800,000 for those games?

willandi
11-17-2019, 11:47 AM
Yes...I do recall that's why Texas Southern travels so extensively, for the cash...

So how do WE benefit by playing a team like that vs. a comparably rated (200+) team of local interest? That is why I've never understood the approach.

I am just guessing, but GU would receive ALL the money from concessions at games at McCarthy, plus the gate, while paying a fairly small amount to those teams.

Most local schools, including Eastern, WSU and probably Montana et al, would want a home and home or home and home and arena, taking away the gate and concessions for one or two of those games.

willandi
11-17-2019, 11:49 AM
So with 8 cupcakes, based on the article's market rates, the Zags would have paid out between $400,000 to $800,000 for those games?

6000 seats at an average of $100/seat is $600,000 per game, just for the tickets. Concessions add in more.

Do the math, please.

CB4
11-17-2019, 12:23 PM
6000 seats at an average of $100/seat is $600,000 per game, just for the tickets. Concessions add in more.

Do the math, please.

I did do the math on the cost. I made no mention of revenue. 2000 seats are student seats, so about 4000. Then the per seat revenue is hard to calculate due to gonzagas season ticket program/donation structure.

zagzilla
11-17-2019, 02:11 PM
One other factor not mentioned is how strong the coach thinks his team is going to be. Last season, Few knew the squad had F4 potential and scheduled an even heavier slate than usual. This year with more question marks, perhaps he dialed it back a bit? Either way there are plenty of opportunities for signature wins here and the ability to grow as a team. Let's take a closer look....

Starts out with a scrimmage vs #1 MSU followed by 3 low-level home games followed by a true P5 road game at TAMU followed by 2 more low-level home games then an appearance at the Battle for Atlantis (arguably the premier preseason tourney this year) then another cupcake followed by a brutal 3 game stretch vs UW (true road game), AZ (true road game) and NC finishing up with 2 low level teams at home during the holidays.

Seems about perfect to me. Great pacing and mixing. Well done coach!

ZZ

Zagdawg
11-17-2019, 02:16 PM
2 out of the last 3 years Texas Southern has been in the dance (and even won a game 2 years ago)-- they play for the cash --but they also get some great road experience in some challenging environments.

willandi
11-17-2019, 02:34 PM
I did do the math on the cost. I made no mention of revenue. 2000 seats are student seats, so about 4000. Then the per seat revenue is hard to calculate due to gonzagas season ticket program/donation structure.

OK, so about $400,000 per cupcake. A maximum of 2 of those pays for the 8 games, so over a $2.4M in added revenue with the current schedule. With no paying home and homes, the max is $1.6M, but with pay to play, more like $1M...and then concessions etc.

Grand Valley Zag
11-17-2019, 02:42 PM
One other factor not mentioned is how strong the coach thinks his team is going to be. Last season, Few knew the squad had F4 potential and scheduled an even heavier slate than usual. This year with more question marks, perhaps he dialed it back a bit? Either way there are plenty of opportunities for signature wins here and the ability to grow as a team. Let's take a closer look....

Starts out with a scrimmage vs #1 MSU followed by 3 low-level home games followed by a true P5 road game at TAMU followed by 2 more low-level home games then an appearance at the Battle for Atlantis (arguably the premier preseason tourney this year) then another cupcake followed by a brutal 3 game stretch vs UW (true road game), AZ (true road game) and NC finishing up with 2 low level teams at home during the holidays.

Seems about perfect to me. Great pacing and mixing. Well done coach!

ZZ

I think the schedule is near perfect too. I like that it has two short stretches packed with highly competitive games: kinda like the tournament.

Also, I think TSU's former coach is at Detroit Mercy now. His TSU squad was tough. I look forward to seeing how his new team looks.

CB4
11-17-2019, 03:11 PM
OK, so about $400,000 per cupcake. A maximum of 2 of those pays for the 8 games, so over a $2.4M in added revenue with the current schedule. With no paying home and homes, the max is $1.6M, but with pay to play, more like $1M...and then concessions etc.

Good math... The only other big number we'd need to look at is what the per game revenue Gonzaga loses out of, if any, from national TV revenue for a big time national noncon matchup that they wouldn't earn if they opt instead for a buy game.

As other posters mention there's a lot of factors, such as strategic scheduling based on historic tournament seeding analytics, but looking at it from the money side seems relevant too.

There were a lot of question marks around this years team so the buy games make a lot of sense even tho I generally disagree with the approach. It seems like an easier decision to make if the money is way more significant for the school via buy games, as it seems to be. It'll be interesting to see what they do next year.

ZagsGoZags
11-18-2019, 04:32 PM
Shaking My D@#M Head.

It's an expression conveying disgust.

Thanks Markburn

RenoZag
11-18-2019, 05:08 PM
Yes...I do recall that's why Texas Southern travels so extensively, for the cash...

So how do WE benefit by playing a team like that vs. a comparably rated (200+) team of local interest? That is why I've never understood the approach.

I don't think we benefit by playing the SWAC, Summit, C-USA, Horizon, and Sun Belt dreck either. . .my hunch is those kinds of teams give GU the maximum amount of control over the dates & difficulty.

bartruff1
11-18-2019, 05:19 PM
Detroit Mercy ??? Really …why are they playing a hospital ???

gueastcoast
11-18-2019, 07:55 PM
Detroit Mercy ??? Really …why are they playing a hospital ???

lol

CB4
11-18-2019, 08:09 PM
Detroit Mercy ??? Really …why are they playing a hospital ???

Yes we're paying them $100,000 in Medicare vouchers.