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Mr Vulture
04-01-2019, 12:31 PM
I know we all have our feelings on who is ready and who isn't ready for the NBA right now. The thing we have to remember though is that declaring for the draft doesn't mean you are definately going pro. Considering that none of our kids have declared previously, I think it is good for both the player and the team if they went through the process at least. All four of Rui, Clarke, Tillie, and Norvell should declare for the draft this year IMO.

With that said, neither one of Tillie or Norvell should hire an agent (IMO) which allows them to get feedback while leaving open the option of coming back to school. I don't think that Norvell is a guy that will get drafted this year, so I'd expect him to return for one more year. With the injuries, it makes sense for Tillie to show he is healthy and get the feedback from pro personnel people as well. I think that Tillie gets drafted and I expect him to declare and ultimately stay in the draft.

The other two kids are both going to be first round picks easily, so I would personally say they should go all in to the draft. Really, the only thing that staying in school provides them is more risk of injury and another year of age which hurts in the NBA's eyes. Sure they could continue to get better but they can do that at the NBA level as well.

Zagdawg
04-01-2019, 12:41 PM
Here is some draft related discussion with Jim Meehan.

https://twitter.com/PressBoxSpokane/status/1112768442338144256

gonzagafan62
04-01-2019, 12:42 PM
Yeah don’t disagree. I’m expecting Rui, Clarke and Tillie to be gone. If Tillie comes back, great we can find room for him. Would love if he stayed.

If Norvell leaves I just don’t see how that benefits him at all. That would be a terrible decision in my opinion, HOWEVER with no risk of anything or losing eligibility, might as well ask the nba what he needs to do to get drafted

Section 116
04-01-2019, 01:39 PM
The Slipper Still Fits weighs in: https://www.slipperstillfits.com/2019/4/1/18290559/nba-draft-2019-rui-hachimura-brandon-clarke?fbclid=IwAR1hrSmoQDZXB8ayBA52wr4MbEm94dF6Gx fdVf3MbZmGM2wmrm2bQpUSPH8

surfmonkey89
04-01-2019, 01:52 PM
If Norvell leaves, I hope he minored in Serbian or Greek.

kitzbuel
04-01-2019, 02:10 PM
The Slipper Still Fits weighs in: https://www.slipperstillfits.com/2019/4/1/18290559/nba-draft-2019-rui-hachimura-brandon-clarke?fbclid=IwAR1hrSmoQDZXB8ayBA52wr4MbEm94dF6Gx fdVf3MbZmGM2wmrm2bQpUSPH8Tillie's decision is if he wants to play in the NBA or in Europe. That drives his decision to stay or not.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

Mr Vulture
04-01-2019, 03:28 PM
Tillie's decision is if he wants to play in the NBA or in Europe. That drives his decision to stay or not.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

I think he will get a shot in the NBA but he very well could end up in Europe as well. Not a lot of big can shoot like him. Regardless, I would be more surprised if he came back than if he left.

Goshzagit
04-01-2019, 03:33 PM
Yeah don’t disagree. I’m expecting Rui, Clarke and Tillie to be gone. If Tillie comes back, great we can find room for him. Would love if he stayed.

If Norvell leaves I just don’t see how that benefits him at all. That would be a terrible decision in my opinion, HOWEVER with no risk of anything or losing eligibility, might as well ask the nba what he needs to do to get drafted


If Norvell leaves, I hope he minored in Serbian or Greek.

Is Norvell even considering it as an option?

gonzagafan62
04-01-2019, 03:42 PM
Is Norvell even considering it as an option?

I wouldn’t think so but you never know these days. He’s got a lot to work on next year if he wants to make the NBA rosters

bartruff1
04-01-2019, 03:54 PM
There are other options than just …...College or the NBA....

cjm720
04-01-2019, 03:55 PM
Rui and Clarke will be top 20 pick. Norvell has no shot at getting drafted. I could see Tillie bolting for Europe but hope he comes back. Perkins will have a great career somewhere other than the NBA.

gonzagafan62
04-01-2019, 05:28 PM
There are other options than just …...College or the NBA....

Oh definitely Bart. Wouldn’t surprise me if someone like Tillie or Norvell wanna get paid in Europe but my guess is both would rather play in NBA. Tillie might be able to, but Norvell is a long way away from that imo. But I am on the couch, not a scout

Ladyzag12
04-01-2019, 05:45 PM
Oh definitely Bart. Wouldn’t surprise me if someone like Tillie or Norvell wanna get paid in Europe but my guess is both would rather play in NBA. Tillie might be able to, but Norvell is a long way away from that imo. But I am on the couch, not a scout

You don't typically see American players leave early to play in Europe unless they thought they were nba material and then don't make a team. With the new rules, I assume he will "declare" workout for teams and get some feed back and the come back to GU next year.

Bogozags
04-02-2019, 05:33 AM
To be honest with regards to Tillie, I just don’t see an improvement in him from the 2018 season...yes he was injured most of the season but didn’t see the same aggressiveness he had last season...still picked up silly fouls, no improvement at the FT Line...unless he finds a way to impress at the combine, he won’t be getting drafted and don’t see him coming back...off to Europe, where he should, if injuries stay away, have a long career...he might even be a two sport person for France.

From what I’ve read on the board, we have one scholarship available for next season and not sure the Staff have been saving that spot for Tillie’s return...if he decided to come back, then one of the others would have to be dropped or reclassify for the 2020-2021 season...

I wish him the very best in everything he does in life!

jazzdelmar
04-02-2019, 06:52 AM
Sadly, Tils looks like a "what coulda been" situation. His frosh promise, playing with great abandon w his partner Zbo, hitting those clutch FTs in the NCs....just a painful reminder of 'po that ain't no 'mo.

Zagceo
04-02-2019, 06:55 AM
Tillie heathy plays 11 minutes in elite eight game and no scribe asks “Why”......why?

jazzdelmar
04-02-2019, 06:57 AM
Tillie heathy plays 11 minutes in elite eight game and no scribe asks “Why”......why?

No Woodward and Bernsteins on the Zag beat, CEO.

Pallet
04-02-2019, 06:57 AM
This Ringer podcast after the Sweet 16 has a long discussion of Clarke, Rui, and Tillie and their NBA prospects. They put Clarke in their top 5 and state that Tillie might be the second best prospect on the team because of his shooting, passing, and feel for the game. Really interesting listen.

https://www.theringer.com/2019/3/29/18287483/the-corner-3-sixteen-ish-nba-prospects-in-the-sweet-16

Gonzagit
04-02-2019, 07:30 AM
Are we sure Rui is a Top 20 pick? I know there's still a lot of potential there, but he's look overmatched against good competition. I think the media ran with the high NBA draft pick story line, but I just don't see it. I'm not scouring the NBA draft boards daily, but I would bet you'd be hard pressed to see him consistently Top 15-20. He looks like a mid to late 2nd rounder to me.

TexasZagFan
04-02-2019, 07:39 AM
Are we sure Rui is a Top 20 pick? I know there's still a lot of potential there, but he's look overmatched against good competition. I think the media ran with the high NBA draft pick story line, but I just don't see it. I'm not scouring the NBA draft boards daily, but I would bet you'd be hard pressed to see him consistently Top 15-20. He looks like a mid to late 2nd rounder to me.

I would argue that Rui's upside is as high as anyone entering the draft. He's still learning the game...barely played his freshman year, more his sophomore year, this year was the most for minutes of his career. He now has the ability to speak English, an important factor in receiving coaching.


I'm biased, but I think he's a starter kit, albeit few inches shorter version of the Greek Freak.

jazzdelmar
04-02-2019, 07:43 AM
Are we sure Rui is a Top 20 pick? I know there's still a lot of potential there, but he's look overmatched against good competition. I think the media ran with the high NBA draft pick story line, but I just don't see it. I'm not scouring the NBA draft boards daily, but I would bet you'd be hard pressed to see him consistently Top 15-20. He looks like a mid to late 2nd rounder to me.

Wishful thinking, Zagit. Rui is top 10-15 on most and higher on some. Interestingly, there seems a correlation between him and Clarke. On the mocks, one's high, the other low, and vice versa. No such correlation w the overrated Dookies.

strikenowhere
04-02-2019, 07:46 AM
Wishful thinking, Zagit. Rui is top 10-15 on most and higher on some. Interestingly, there seems a correlation between him and Clarke. On the mocks, one's high, the other low, and vice versa. No such correlation w the overrated Dookies.

Yeah, and this isn't even taking into account the Japanese market appeal that the NBA & whatever franchise gets him will be able to exploit. My bet is that he goes 5-10 as somebody isn't going to pass up a money-making opportunity.

TexasZagFan
04-02-2019, 07:55 AM
Yeah, and this isn't even taking into account the Japanese market appeal that the NBA & whatever franchise gets him will be able to exploit. My bet is that he goes 5-10 as somebody isn't going to pass up a money-making opportunity.

Bingo!

SorenTodd45
04-02-2019, 08:33 AM
Are we sure Rui is a Top 20 pick? I know there's still a lot of potential there, but he's look overmatched against good competition. I think the media ran with the high NBA draft pick story line, but I just don't see it. I'm not scouring the NBA draft boards daily, but I would bet you'd be hard pressed to see him consistently Top 15-20. He looks like a mid to late 2nd rounder to me.

I've seen Rui as high as a #4 pick. That was a month ago, won't happen now.

CDC84
04-02-2019, 08:46 AM
Would be shocked if Tillie signs with an agent and departs. Wouldn't have said that last summer, but he has to prove to NBA personnel, or for that matter, European personnel, that he can stay healthy for an entire season. He's too much of a financial risk right now.

Any player who gets invited to the combine would be stupid not to go unless they are 100% certain to return and have something going on personally that is more important. As mentioned above you can always come back, so long as you don't sign with an agent. I would expect Norvell to test the waters and return.

Rui and Brandon = thanks for the memories and best of luck into the future.

P.S. - there is a Yahoo article that has Brandon going at 7 ahead of Rui. Their draft positions are all over the joint. Again, there are going to be teams that love them, and others that don't. They don't have a Zion/Barrett/Culver/Hunter status where everyone wants them. They just need to find that right organization that values what they bring.

And a reminder as we go thru this process: please stay away from nbadraft.net. It should be taken off the internet. It is universally regarded as being the worst mock site on the net (the fact that it is free tells you all you need to know). They've had lottery picks on their mock that ended up being 2nd rounders in the past.

LongIslandZagFan
04-02-2019, 09:01 AM
If I were Zach I would most definitely test the waters. Get feedback about what is needed and then come back. I'd actually be shocked if he DIDN'T test the waters.

jazzdelmar
04-02-2019, 09:01 AM
1 New York Zion Williamson Fr.
2 Phoenix Ja Morant So.
3 RJ Barrett Fr.
4 Chicago Rui Hachimura Jr.

You mean this one, CD?

LongIslandZagFan
04-02-2019, 09:12 AM
1 New York Zion Williamson Fr.
2 Phoenix Ja Morant So.
3 RJ Barrett Fr.
4 Chicago Rui Hachimura Jr.

You mean this one, CD?

Ugh... please NY Knicks don't blow it by taking Zion. Take Ja, take RJ, take Rui, just not Zion.

Signed,
A concerned Knicks fan

Hoopaholic
04-02-2019, 09:14 AM
Ugh... please NY Knicks don't blow it by taking Zion. Take Ja, take RJ, take Rui, just not Zion.

Signed,
A concerned Knicks fan

I will go on record and say Zion flames out in the NBA....ala Greg Odom

VinnyZag
04-02-2019, 09:22 AM
Are we sure Rui is a Top 20 pick? I know there's still a lot of potential there, but he's look overmatched against good competition. I think the media ran with the high NBA draft pick story line, but I just don't see it. I'm not scouring the NBA draft boards daily, but I would bet you'd be hard pressed to see him consistently Top 15-20. He looks like a mid to late 2nd rounder to me.

ESPN (Jonathan Givony) (http://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/26297227/nba-mock-draft-teams-zion-morant-top-tourney-prospects) has Rui at 16 and Clarke at 22 (to my Blazers!). The Athletic (Sam Vecenie) (https://theathletic.com/870956/2019/03/18/vecenie-2019-mock-draft-2-0-the-pre-ncaa-tournament-edition/) has Rui at 10 and Clarke 14.

Both of these mocks were written were pre-tournament. However, I'm not sure either Rui or BC did anything to hurt their stock. Other players may have done more to improve. None of this really matters at this point anyhow, but if the question is whether Rui is still viewed as a top 20 pick? Yes.

Tillie and Norvell are both absent from both mocks.

VinnyZag
04-02-2019, 09:28 AM
I will go on record and say Zion flames out in the NBA....ala Greg Odom

You think Zion is going to have repeated debilitating knee injuries? And it's Oden, not Odom.

Sorry, I'm a Blazers fan triggered by any mention of Greg Oden, Sam Bowie or LaRue Martin.

Bouldin4Prez
04-02-2019, 09:29 AM
Ugh... please NY Knicks don't blow it by taking Zion. Take Ja, take RJ, take Rui, just not Zion.

Signed,
A concerned Knicks fan

I'm confused as to why you hate Zion as a draft prospect? He just put together the most efficient season since Anthony Davis with no shooting around him. He's shown great defense, good court vision and most importantly plays hard every single play. Looks to me like he could average 16 and 10 right away without even needing the ball in his hands.

Bouldin4Prez
04-02-2019, 09:32 AM
I will go on record and say Zion flames out in the NBA....ala Greg Odom

So you think Zion is going to be repeatedly injured in the NBA? The only reason Oden didn't make 10 all-star teams was his health. The guy looked awesome when he was able to play early in his career.

hooter73
04-02-2019, 09:32 AM
As good as Rui is, if he goes high, it will be based on potential. Clarke on the other hand, I think some people are forgetting he is a 6'8 post player. He has a little range, not much, but NBA centers are the guys that blocked Brandon Clarke all year and NBA forwards can shoot and drive. I think he is freaking terrific, but realistically...

webspinnre
04-02-2019, 09:34 AM
I don't think Zion will dominate in the same way he has in the NCAA, but barring injury, I don't see any reason he won't be successful.

LTownZag
04-02-2019, 09:38 AM
I will go on record and say Zion flames out in the NBA....ala Greg Odom

You're at least the second prolific participant here to make this claim and I'm curious why you think that. Maybe you're correct but I wonder what you're seeing.

Oden had major injuries, and his position was basically being phased out from the style of the current NBA.

Do you think a healthy Zion is an NBA bust? Or is your prediction contingent upon him having major injuries?

LongIslandZagFan
04-02-2019, 09:46 AM
I'm confused as to why you hate Zion as a draft prospect? He just put together the most efficient season since Anthony Davis with no shooting around him. He's shown great defense, good court vision and most importantly plays hard every single play. Looks to me like he could average 16 and 10 right away without even needing the ball in his hands.

Here is what I see:

a) His "skill" is running out and getting dunks. He doesn't post up well at all when he does. Don't believe me, go back and watch any Duke game and remove those transition hoops... see what you end up with.
b) His "position" through HS/college has been to be a 4 or a 5... where his height would dictate a 2 or 3 at the next level.
c) He has no idea how to play those positions at all as he has never really had any experience in them.
d) His weight, his weight, his weight. Perspective here... he's currently roughly the same weight as Shaq during his rookie season but wayyyyy shorter. His body will not serve him well at the next level.
e) Assuming you put him in the post... his post up skills as stated earlier aren't all that great... doesn't need to be at the college level with his athleticism. But at the NBA level, his "next level athleticism" those players see every game. He'd be eaten alive in the paint.

I am by no means saying he'll be a bust. But superstar... nuh uh... don't see it happening. I'm not the only one... google for Gilbert Areneas' assessment of him... pretty much mirrors what I have always thought.. TBH... some of the items above came from that because it just solidified what I was feeling but couldn't pinpoint it as well as he did.

LongIslandZagFan
04-02-2019, 09:50 AM
I don't think Zion will dominate in the same way he has in the NCAA, but barring injury, I don't see any reason he won't be successful.

He'll be a journeyman and will make solid money and more power to him. As a Knick's fan... I don't want a journeyman at the 1 pick... sorry.

Ja Morant IMHO is a far better #1 pick. Plays his natural position and literally does everything at a high high level. Surround him with NBA talent and he becomes a superstar.

former1dog
04-02-2019, 09:53 AM
He'll be a journeyman and will make solid money and more power to him. As a Knick's fan... I don't want a journeyman at the 1 pick... sorry.

Ja Morant IMHO is a far better 31 pick. Plays his natural position and literally does everything at a high high level. Surround him with NBA talent and he becomes a superstar.

Morant, IMO, may very well be a future NBA MVP. He is good!!

tummydoc
04-02-2019, 09:55 AM
I could see Zach declaring to test the waters. But doubt he would get an invite. They only invite 60-70 players.

SorenTodd45
04-02-2019, 09:58 AM
Ja Morant IMHO is a far better #1 pick. Plays his natural position and literally does everything at a high high level. Surround him with NBA talent and he becomes a superstar.

I would agree 100%. I watched about 5 or 6 Murray St games this past season, and there's just something special about Ja.

Bouldin4Prez
04-02-2019, 10:07 AM
He'll be a journeyman and will make solid money and more power to him. As a Knick's fan... I don't want a journeyman at the 1 pick... sorry.

Ja Morant IMHO is a far better #1 pick. Plays his natural position and literally does everything at a high high level. Surround him with NBA talent and he becomes a superstar.

Morant is awesome, but defensively he is a major liability at this point. His offense could very well be good enough to outweigh his defensive shortcomings, similar to Lillard. I also think his 3 point shot needs a little bit of work before it will be a major strength in the NBA. Morant to me is clearly the second best prospect in this class. Seems to me like everyone wants to nitpick Zion's flaws but overlook the things he does exceptionally well, which there are a lot of.

MileHigh
04-02-2019, 10:08 AM
Here is what I see:

a) His "skill" is running out and getting dunks. He doesn't post up well at all when he does. Don't believe me, go back and watch any Duke game and remove those transition hoops... see what you end up with.
b) His "position" through HS/college has been to be a 4 or a 5... where his height would dictate a 2 or 3 at the next level.
c) He has no idea how to play those positions at all as he has never really had any experience in them.
d) His weight, his weight, his weight. Perspective here... he's currently roughly the same weight as Shaq during his rookie season but wayyyyy shorter. His body will not serve him well at the next level.
e) Assuming you put him in the post... his post up skills as stated earlier aren't all that great... doesn't need to be at the college level with his athleticism. But at the NBA level, his "next level athleticism" those players see every game. He'd be eaten alive in the paint.

I am by no means saying he'll be a bust. But superstar... nuh uh... don't see it happening. I'm not the only one... google for Gilbert Areneas' assessment of him... pretty much mirrors what I have always thought.. TBH... some of the items above came from that because it just solidified what I was feeling but couldn't pinpoint it as well as he did.

Could not disagree more. responding to your points:

a) Very few college freshmen have good footwork in the post. That will be learned. With his strength and leaping ability he will eventually be able to post up every small forward in the league.

b) and c) A lot more goes into the position you play in the NBA than your height. There are 6-7 pg's and 6-8 pf's, and it has more to do with your body type and skill set, and most importantly with what position you can defend. ZW can defend the 3 and 4 position in the NBA so that is where he will play. One NBA player said that if ZW improves his jumpshot he will be un-guardable in the NBA.

d) i agree he is too heavy, but he has a very low percentage of body fat, so trimming down might be difficult. If he can get to about 260 and maintain it that would be perfect. Time will tell on that.

e) You dont see 280 pound guys with 42 inch verticals EVER. There are guys in the NBA that can jump, but none with the Size/quickness combo of ZW. Zion is pretty much one of a kind.

All that being said, I dont think he is a guaranteed generational player, but I do think he is a can't miss player that will play in some all star games before he is is done. Add that to the fact that he will put butts in the seats and I think the knicks have no choice but to take him

LongIslandZagFan
04-02-2019, 10:08 AM
I would agree 100%. I watched about 5 or 6 Murray St games this past season, and there's just something special about Ja.

I know my Knicks... should the ping-pong balls fall their way and they get #1 overall... they will take a blowtorch to it and Weis it. If you don't know what that means... in 1999 the Knicks, with their 15th pick, bypassed future all-star and local SJU talent Ron Artest for Frederic Weis, whom, before the draft had stated quite clearly he has no intention of really playing in the NBA. They never signed him... I know shocker since he said he wouldn't before they even drafted him. Little prince Jimmy Dolan, the owner of the Knicks, will demand Zion because he wants the bright shiny object instead of drafting on pure talent. Sorry for my Knicks rant... carry on.

bartruff1
04-02-2019, 10:10 AM
I remember when Portland picked Sam Bowie instead of Michael Jordan.....Zion is the answer....just because something is obvious doesn't mean it is wrong...no need to overthink this...

LongIslandZagFan
04-02-2019, 10:11 AM
Could not disagree more. responding to your points:

a) Very few college freshmen have good footwork in the post. That will be learned. With his strength and leaping ability he will eventually be able to post up every small forward in the league.

b) and c) A lot more goes into the position you play in the NBA than your height. There are 6-7 pg's and 6-8 pf's, and it has more to do with your body type and skill set, and most importantly with what position you can defend. ZW can defend the 3 and 4 position in the NBA so that is where he will play. One NBA player said that if W improves his jumpshot he will be un-guardable in the NBA.

d) i agree he is too heavy, but he has a very low percentage of body fat, so trimming down might be difficult. If he can get to about 260 and maintain it that would be perfect. Time will tell on that.

e) You dont see 280 pound guys with 42 inch verticals EVER. There are guys in the NBA that can jump, but none with the Sie/quickness combo of W. Zion is pretty much one of a kind.

All that being said, I dont think he is a guaranteed generational player, but I do think he is a can't miss player that will play in some all star games before he is is done. Add that to the fact that he will put butts in the seats and I think the knicks have no choice but to take him

Don't fully disagree with any of that... but JMHO.... he should be a late lottery to just outside the lottery pick. There is better players on his own Duke team in terms of next level talent.

Hoopaholic
04-02-2019, 10:23 AM
You're at least the second prolific participant here to make this claim and I'm curious why you think that. Maybe you're correct but I wonder what you're seeing.

Oden had major injuries, and his position was basically being phased out from the style of the current NBA.

Do you think a healthy Zion is an NBA bust? Or is your prediction contingent upon him having major injuries?

his first step is dynamic and is why he has been succesful at the college level.....next level I dont see this as an extreme advantage

his outside jump shot is a SET shot destined for long armed quick jumpers in nba to block it

his on ball defense is abismal IMO unless he is allowed to muscle you

his off ball defense is great and timing is incredible.....however he wont be allowed to float off ball at the next level or he will get burnt

his primary offensive move is limited to the spin with the chicken wing to gain advantage wont be a consistent move at the next level

has no mid range game or ability to pull up and shoot and at 6-7 dont see him playing the 4 or 5 spot at the next level

but this is coming from someone who does not watch or engage in NBA ,.

he runs flat footed and will be susceptible to injury due to his body type playing the amount of games the nba plays

Ladyzag12
04-02-2019, 10:42 AM
Ugh... please NY Knicks don't blow it by taking Zion. Take Ja, take RJ, take Rui, just not Zion.

Signed,
A concerned Knicks fan

You are being sarcastic right?

Ladyzag12
04-02-2019, 10:49 AM
Zions athleticism is so incredible that he will be a multiple time all star. The league has never seen an athlete like him. I would be concerned about him long term though. His weight is not trending well and he does not have a great wingspan. He will still put up some out of control seasons. He has a plus handle for his size and style as well.

Ja tops out as a few time all star. His shooting is suspect and he is not a good finisher. He also has a poor frame for his playing style. He is an underrated passer.

Mr Vulture
04-02-2019, 10:54 AM
I believe that Zion will be a star in the NBA and don't think his height is a big deal with his strength/athleticism. I think that Morant is a likely star as well and I really like RJ Barrett as potential All Star talent (I see Chris Bosh type player in him). After that, there are many players that could be very good but most have question marks. I like Culver and Rui at the NBA level. I am not as big on Clarke and Hunter at the NBA level. I think that Reddish is waayyy overrated and would benefit by another year of school although that isn't going to happen.

LongIslandZagFan
04-02-2019, 11:42 AM
You are being sarcastic right?

I'm a Knicks fan and no I am not being sarcastic.

LongIslandZagFan
04-02-2019, 11:43 AM
his first step is dynamic and is why he has been succesful at the college level.....next level I dont see this as an extreme advantage

his outside jump shot is a SET shot destined for long armed quick jumpers in nba to block it

his on ball defense is abismal IMO unless he is allowed to muscle you

his off ball defense is great and timing is incredible.....however he wont be allowed to float off ball at the next level or he will get burnt

his primary offensive move is limited to the spin with the chicken wing to gain advantage wont be a consistent move at the next level

has no mid range game or ability to pull up and shoot and at 6-7 dont see him playing the 4 or 5 spot at the next level

but this is coming from someone who does not watch or engage in NBA ,.

he runs flat footed and will be susceptible to injury due to his body type playing the amount of games the nba plays

This

LongIslandZagFan
04-02-2019, 11:44 AM
I believe that Zion will be a star in the NBA and don't think his height is a big deal with his strength/athleticism. I think that Morant is a likely star as well and I really like RJ Barrett as potential All Star talent (I see Chris Bosh type player in him). After that, there are many players that could be very good but most have question marks. I like Culver and Rui at the NBA level. I am not as big on Clarke and Hunter at the NBA level. I think that Reddish is waayyy overrated and would benefit by another year of school although that isn't going to happen.

I've been saying all season that RJ was a much better NBA prospect than Zion.

raise the zag
04-02-2019, 11:51 AM
I've been saying all season that RJ was a much better NBA prospect than Zion.

I would select Ja Morant #1 overall.

Followed by RJ Barrett.

Even Morant's "bad game" vs FSU he had 28 pts, 5 rebs, 4 assists, 2 stls, 5-6 3pt.

His ceiling is Top 3 or 4 PG in the game. I think he's that gifted and good.

LongIslandZagFan
04-02-2019, 11:58 AM
I would select Ja Morant #1 overall.

Followed by RJ Barrett.

Even Morant's "bad game" vs FSU he had 28 pts, 5 rebs, 4 assists, 2 stls, 5-6 3pt.

His ceiling is Top 3 or 4 PG in the game. I think he's that gifted and good.


https://media.tenor.com/images/78694b81ca25bc38984011db05aca57e/tenor.gif

VinnyZag
04-02-2019, 02:29 PM
I remember when Portland picked Sam Perkins instead of Michael Jordan.....Zion is the answer....just because something is obvious doesn't mean it is wrong...no need to overthink this...

It was Sam Bowie. They would've been better off with Perkins.

bartruff1
04-02-2019, 03:16 PM
It was Sam Bowie. They would've been better off with Perkins.

Whoops......but the same lesson applies …..if you get a chance....take the MAN.....don't over think it....

CdAZagFan
04-02-2019, 05:38 PM
It'll be interesting to Watch ZW's NBA career... I'm in the boat with the people that think his skillset won't necessarily transfer easily to the NBA.

LongIslandZagFan
04-02-2019, 06:40 PM
It'll be interesting to Watch ZW's NBA career... I'm in the boat with the people that think his skillset won't necessarily transfer easily to the NBA.

Ditto and I’d totally have no problem eating crow should he become a superstar

DixieZag
04-02-2019, 06:44 PM
If Zion's skill set doesn't transfer to the NBA, I am at a loss as to what skills will.

I realize he's a bit undersized for power forward.

But, he utterly dominated that game against UNC, which is the highest level of NCAA ball in existence outside the tourney.

He's explosive, strong, fast, plays WAY above the rim.

He also seems like a pretty good kid - albeit questionable judgment playing for Dook, and it kills me to admit this about any Dook player - but, all things considered, he seemed like one of the harder working, more earnest 5 star one and dones we've seen lately.

Compare him to the UW kid or LSU kid a couple years back. Light year's difference.

willandi
04-02-2019, 08:12 PM
If Zion's skill set doesn't transfer to the NBA, I am at a loss as to what skills will.

I realize he's a bit undersized for power forward.

But, he utterly dominated that game against UNC, which is the highest level of NCAA ball in existence outside the tourney.

He's explosive, strong, fast, plays WAY above the rim.

He also seems like a pretty good kid - albeit questionable judgment playing for Dook, and it kills me to admit this about any Dook player - but, all things considered, he seemed like one of the harder working, more earnest 5 star one and dones we've seen lately.

Compare him to the UW kid or LSU kid a couple years back. Light year's difference.

Right off the bat, you have to question his intelligence. He picked a shoe made for a lightweight man, not a shoe like LeBron wears.

Mojo13
04-03-2019, 11:30 AM
I never stop being amazed by some of the posts here, despite how much bball y'all watch. Too many of you are buried in the college game to see what makes an NBA player.
Zion Williamson is a generational talent...the best prospect to come along since Lebron. He put up the best statistical season in the NCAA in the past 20 years by a long margin. He was a phenom in almost every advanced statistic AND he is a freshman. I don't know how any of you can't see him as by far and away the #1 pick.


Brandon Clarke is now up to #12 on ESPN/Givony's Big Board (post 2nd round tournament) and Rui is down to #18. Tankathon's Mock has Clarke at #8 and Rui at #12 (Their Big Board is #4/#20 respectively). This has been the trend all season - Clarke continuously moving up and Rui trickling down. Clarke is going to be drafted higher than Rui as I said back in December. I said he was going to be a lottery pick and I am now saying he will be top 10. Clarke was the 2nd best player in the NCAA by a long margin after Zion.

But go ahead, keep reading the goofs at NBAdraft.net who have Rui at #4 and Clarke in the 30s. Or the goof at SI.com - as mentioned by another poster both are probably on the take in a ridiculous attempt to depress Clarke's value.

Mojo13
04-03-2019, 11:32 AM
I've been saying all season that RJ was a much better NBA prospect than Zion.

And you've been consistently wrong all season (coming from a Team Canada junkie that is saying something).

LongIslandZagFan
04-03-2019, 11:52 AM
And you've been consistently wrong all season (coming from a Team Canada junkie that is saying something).

We'll see.

therocket
04-03-2019, 12:42 PM
If Zion's skill set doesn't transfer to the NBA, I am at a loss as to what skills will.

I realize he's a bit undersized for power forward.

But, he utterly dominated that game against UNC, which is the highest level of NCAA ball in existence outside the tourney.

He's explosive, strong, fast, plays WAY above the rim.

He also seems like a pretty good kid - albeit questionable judgment playing for Dook, and it kills me to admit this about any Dook player - but, all things considered, he seemed like one of the harder working, more earnest 5 star one and dones we've seen lately.

Compare him to the UW kid or LSU kid a couple years back. Light year's difference.


See above. Zion is terrific and is a better prospect then anyone in the last few years. I don’t understand this board sometimes and the weird random hate or hot takes people have. Some of this I’m sure has to do with Duke and the publicity he has been given.

To piggyback on this Brandon Clarke is a better NBA prospect then Rui. Tillie may be as well. NBA is a different game.

LongIslandZagFan
04-03-2019, 12:44 PM
See above. Zion is terrific and is a better prospect then anyone in the last few years. I don’t understand this board sometimes and the weird random hate or hot takes people have. Some of this I’m sure has to do with Duke and the publicity he has been given.

To piggyback on this Brandon Clarke is a better NBA prospect then Rui. Tillie may be as well. NBA is a different game.

For me, definitely not about hating Duke... not in the slightest.

This is a good read:

https://www.totalprosports.com/2019/04/01/gilbert-arenas-gives-the-most-accurate-critical-assessment-of-zion-williamson-video/?fbclid=IwAR00H4yMr4GuheB5AoRAS-aE8JgPYHqkfjIXQ1RO1HCYE_BAwJ5b_-dQ97k

And yes the NBA is a different game... which is my whole point about Zion. Hey, for Zion's sake... I hope I am completely wrong. I said before... will gladly eat crow if I am.

willandi
04-03-2019, 12:49 PM
For me, definitely not about hating Duke... not in the slightest.

This is a good read:

https://www.totalprosports.com/2019/04/01/gilbert-arenas-gives-the-most-accurate-critical-assessment-of-zion-williamson-video/?fbclid=IwAR00H4yMr4GuheB5AoRAS-aE8JgPYHqkfjIXQ1RO1HCYE_BAwJ5b_-dQ97k

And yes the NBA is a different game... which is my whole point about Zion. Hey, for Zion's sake... I hope I am completely wrong. I said before... will gladly eat crow if I am.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0185/5092/products/persons-0106_800x.png?v=1369544013

jazzdelmar
04-03-2019, 01:26 PM
Jay chases Jahvon:

ESPN. Former five-star recruit Jahvon Quinerly is transferring from Villanova after one season, the school announced Wednesday morning.

"We had a very candid meeting and Jahvon has decided to transfer to another program," coach Jay Wright said in a statement. "We'll miss Jahvon. He's been an outstanding teammate and was an integral part of our success last season. We wish him the best as he approaches the next step in his basketball career."

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/26430898/freshman-quinerly-transfer-villanova

MileHigh
04-03-2019, 02:04 PM
. Clarke was the 2nd best player in the NCAA by a long margin after Zion.

.

I love Clarke, but he was not better than Morant as a college player, nor is he a better pro prospect.

CDC84
04-03-2019, 02:22 PM
I will go on record and say Zion flames out in the NBA....ala Greg Odom

In all fairness, Greg flamed out due to chronic injuries. He had to leave the game because he could never stay healthy. He was never given a chance to prove himself.

I think he would've been an incredible center, even in the modern game.

Unfortunately, the Blazers just have a nasty history with this sort of thing happening.....most recently w/ Brandon Roy. Just
couldn't play anymore.

And speaking of injuries, one of the worries I do have with Zion is his body and the possibility of him developing chronic injuries. It's just so unnatural to see a 6-7'ish forward who weighs 285lbs and reportedly has a 46" vertical. There really has never been a player quite like him in terms of his body. Can it hold up under that many games. I think it's one of the reasons why some scouts feel he needs to drop 20lbs. That is, 20lbs of muscle, because he is not fat.

Hoopaholic
04-03-2019, 02:48 PM
In all fairness, Greg flamed out due to chronic injuries. He had to leave the game because he could never stay healthy. He was never given a chance to prove himself.

I think he would've been an incredible center, even in the modern game.

Unfortunately, the Blazers just have a nasty history with this sort of thing happening.....most recently w/ Brandon Roy. Just
couldn't play anymore.

And speaking of injuries, one of the worries I do have with Zion is his body and the possibility of him developing chronic injuries. It's just so unnatural to see a 6-7'ish forward who weighs 285lbs and reportedly has a 46" vertical. There really has never been a player quite like him in terms of his body. Can it hold up under that many games. I think it's one of the reasons why some scouts feel he needs to drop 20lbs. That is, 20lbs of muscle, because he is not fat.

that was my point using Greg Odom as an example...I dont think ZW body will take the NBA rigors

Zagceo
04-03-2019, 02:50 PM
I am by no means saying he'll be a bust. But superstar... nuh uh... don't see it happening. I'm not the only one... google for Gilbert Areneas' assessment of him... pretty much mirrors what I have always thought.. TBH... some of the items above came from that because it just solidified what I was feeling but couldn't pinpoint it as well as he did.

listened to Gilbert talk about Zion....Westbrook height with Shaq weight...kinda wild to visualize

kitzbuel
04-03-2019, 02:55 PM
that was my point using Greg Odom as an example...I dont think ZW body will take the NBA rigors

I agree in that I think Zion's style of play is at risk because of how big he is. Joints just can't take that force for too long. If he looses anything off his hops and quickness, he rapidly trends to average. He better get lots of money up front.

DixieZag
04-03-2019, 03:00 PM
I agree in that I think Zion's style of play is at risk because of how big he is. Joints just can't take that force for too long. If he looses anything off his hops and quickness, he rapidly trends to average. He better get lots of money up front.

Or pay some of the most elite nutritionists and physical therapist/trainers to entirely reinvent his body now that he's an 8 figure a year enterprise.

I would bet that he can go a long way in addressing all of that by taking great care of himself.

ZagNut08
04-03-2019, 03:02 PM
I view Zion as a Blake Griffin type player in the NBA. Will be good out of the gate due to athleticism & build - then develop a jumper and move into top 25 level talent - then see athleticism drop off and go back to a good player.

Zagceo
04-03-2019, 03:09 PM
FYI

Zion and Brock are same age

imagine Zion playing for Kittittas this year....hahaha

Vanzagger
04-03-2019, 09:42 PM
Taking 20+ pounds off sounds like a good plan, even though he just added it

MickMick
04-04-2019, 03:57 AM
I disqualify myself.

I thought Ball from UCLA was going to be a great pro.

jazzdelmar
04-04-2019, 05:19 AM
Two words: Jahlil Okafor.....

http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/3135048/jahlil-okafor

https://www.thesportster.com/college-basketball/top-15-duke-players-who-were-nba-busts/

CanadianZagsFan
04-04-2019, 06:10 AM
I never stop being amazed by some of the posts here, despite how much bball y'all watch. Too many of you are buried in the college game to see what makes an NBA player.
Zion Williamson is a generational talent...the best prospect to come along since Lebron. He put up the best statistical season in the NCAA in the past 20 years by a long margin. He was a phenom in almost every advanced statistic AND he is a freshman. I don't know how any of you can't see him as by far and away the #1 pick.


Brandon Clarke is now up to #12 on ESPN/Givony's Big Board (post 2nd round tournament) and Rui is down to #18. Tankathon's Mock has Clarke at #8 and Rui at #12 (Their Big Board is #4/#20 respectively). This has been the trend all season - Clarke continuously moving up and Rui trickling down. Clarke is going to be drafted higher than Rui as I said back in December. I said he was going to be a lottery pick and I am now saying he will be top 10. Clarke was the 2nd best player in the NCAA by a long margin after Zion.

But go ahead, keep reading the goofs at NBAdraft.net who have Rui at #4 and Clarke in the 30s. Or the goof at SI.com - as mentioned by another poster both are probably on the take in a ridiculous attempt to depress Clarke's value.


Being an NBA fan longer than college hoops fan..I hear your points. Extra points for goof tally above ha.

I question ZW jump shot at the next level. And I’m in minority here... I am one of the FEW that questions Clarke at the next level. He’s not 6”10 body doing what he is doing. I believe in Rui at the next level. To reach the Greek Freak level at this point and time, sure daunting task... but he does do one or two things better than him at this time already (one being his jump shot). Rui has to work a bit more on expanded range and consistent shot arc (give him a year or two on that , you won’t see it right away in the association). Sure, one more year of Rui in college would be ideal for his progression plain, but it won’t hurt him the same as Daye leaving a year early.

Bouldin4Prez
04-04-2019, 06:28 AM
Two words: Jahlil Okafor.....

http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/3135048/jahlil-okafor

https://www.thesportster.com/college-basketball/top-15-duke-players-who-were-nba-busts/

What does Jahlil Okafor being a bust have to do with Zion? The whole knock against Jahlil is no one plays with their back to the basket anymore, a lack of athleticism and terrible defense. All 3 things that don’t affect Zion.

Bogozags
04-04-2019, 08:49 AM
Just guessing but would think that participating and having an excellent "combine" would determine where you might get drafted. So if Rui does really well he could easily move up the board...I also think it depends on the needs/wants of the teams and who is available...

With Rui's work ethic, I would not be surprised if he isn't chosen between 4-10 in the lottery.

I'll bet Zion, RJ and Ja won't participate...JMHO

LTownZag
04-04-2019, 09:37 AM
I wonder how many spots it might possibly help RUI that his marketing upside is potentially much higher than other rookies in that 8-20 range in the draft.

I'm totally ignorant about the extent of such factors in the NBA draft, but it does seem that he's likely to produce some greater amount of merchandise sales for a team than the players evaluated around him. Maybe those concerns are small potatoes though.

Bouldin4Prez
04-04-2019, 09:47 AM
Just guessing but would think that participating and having an excellent "combine" would determine where you might get drafted. So if Rui does really well he could easily move up the board...I also think it depends on the needs/wants of the teams and who is available...

With Rui's work ethic, I would not be surprised if he isn't chosen between 4-10 in the lottery.

I'll bet Zion, RJ and Ja won't participate...JMHO

I honestly see Rui falling into the back half of the 1st round, the 18-25 range. His game is based around the mid range jumper which he excels at, but the NBA has moved as far away from that area of the floor as possible. He's a SF who doesn't play great defense (although it is improving), isn't much of a playmaker and can't shoot 3s. He's a poor mans Carmelo Anthony at this point.

DixieZag
04-04-2019, 09:48 AM
Just guessing but would think that participating and having an excellent "combine" would determine where you might get drafted. So if Rui does really well he could easily move up the board...I also think it depends on the needs/wants of the teams and who is available...

With Rui's work ethic, I would not be surprised if he isn't chosen between 4-10 in the lottery.

I'll bet Zion, RJ and Ja won't participate...JMHO

Rui also has the advantage of a potential owner envisioning his team's logo on clothes all over Japan, and possible television rights to games in Japan.

I have no knowledge of the NBA business model, other than more money is good. Rui has unique ability in that "value added" category.

LongIslandZagFan
04-04-2019, 09:55 AM
I honestly see Rui falling into the back half of the 1st round, the 18-25 range. His game is based around the mid range jumper which he excels at, but the NBA has moved as far away from that area of the floor as possible. He's a SF who doesn't play great defense (although it is improving), isn't much of a playmaker and can't shoot 3s. He's a poor mans Carmelo Anthony at this point.

Mello was a human black hole... the ball went into his hands and almost never left and typically ended in a questionable shot taken by Mello. Too many years of watching him in NY... the antithesis of a team player.

Mojo13
04-04-2019, 10:36 AM
Another solid read on Clarke and why I am so high on him.

https://uproxx.com/dimemag/brandon-clarke-2019-nba-draft-analysis/


And the new Sam Vecenie Big Board is up on The Athletic.
Brandon Clarke - #12
Rui Hachimura - #16

https://theathletic.com/901851/2019/04/04/sam-vecenies-nba-draft-big-board-update-final-four-edition-version-4-0/

ZagNative
04-05-2019, 08:04 PM
Odds and ends about the draft:

Updated list of undergrads who have declared for the draft thus far: https://247sports.com/Article/2019-NBA-Draft-underclassmen-College-players-leaving-early-for-NBA-130482866/

(No GU players thus far.)

Schedule of Rookie Salaries for the 2019 draft per RealGM: https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/info/rookie_scale/2020

(Really? $8,120,700 for the #1 pick?)

Slipper Still Fits: Important draft dates: https://www.slipperstillfits.com/2019/4/2/18292137/nba-draft-2019-dates


April 21: NBA Early Entry Deadline

May 14-19: NBA Draft Combine

May 29: NCAA Early Entry Entrant Withdrawal Deadline

Goshzagit
04-06-2019, 06:25 AM
Odds and ends about the draft:

Updated list of undergrads who have declared for the draft thus far: https://247sports.com/Article/2019-NBA-Draft-underclassmen-College-players-leaving-early-for-NBA-130482866/

(No GU players thus far.)

Schedule of Rookie Salaries for the 2019 draft per RealGM: https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/info/rookie_scale/2020

(Really? $8,120,700 for the #1 pick?)

Slipper Still Fits: Important draft dates: https://www.slipperstillfits.com/2019/4/2/18292137/nba-draft-2019-dates

Historically, GU players are nearly always last to declare.

Think NWG and/or Collins 2 yrs ago.

Collins declared later and NWG declared on the 2nd to last day possible.

A whole process is expected at GU. Exit interview, 1 on 1 meet with every Coach, family, sometimes Coaches with family, occasionally meeting with the team, and finally setting up academic parameters for anearly exit (which means something to our players).

GU does it right. No rock left unturned and to make it smooth, seamless, confident and possible.

Not to mention, our Coaches have said in past they also like to speak with NBA scouts, GM's, coaches on behalf of their players to give them the best information possible. To make an informed decision. A realistic decision.

I suspect this is occurring now. No GU player rushes this process and the Coaches want the best for them as well.

Considering we have (4) players declaring early, and (2) of them hiring agents, the coaching staff are busy and involves helping them along.

Even IF Norvell returns, he is going to get the best info possible as our Coaches are the best at assisting in this process.

Gonzaga is unique, even with the transition the the NBA.

OntZags
04-06-2019, 10:00 AM
Considering we have (4) players declaring early, and (2) of them hiring agents, the coaching staff are busy and involves helping them along.

Even IF Norvell returns, he is going to get the best info possible as our Coaches are the best at assisting in this process.



You seem to be saying this as fact which is worrisome for next year...

I totally understand Norvell entering the draft to see what the NBA has to say but I sure hope he returns. I also just realized yesterday Norvell still has two years of eligibility (he already feels like such a vet) & got my hopes up at the prospect Norvell possibly coming back in 2021 to help shepherd Suggs along. Next year is a retooling year but 2021 could be a truly special team and Norvell would be a monster cog in that. However, if he is already entering this draft cycle (even if he comes back), it sure feels like a remote chance he would return for a fifth season. :/

ZagNative
04-06-2019, 10:58 AM
Goshzagit, what a great post! Thanks so much for the thoughtful content!

Radbooks
04-06-2019, 11:21 AM
Oh, by the way, all of the players can now hire an agent to help them through the process, even if they come back to school. It's new this year.



Jon Rothstein
‏Verified account @JonRothstein
5h5 hours ago

PSA: Under new NBA Draft rules, players are allowed to retain an agent to guide them through the process and then terminate them later on if they wish to return to school.

What does that mean?

There won't be significant clarity to who will be back for 19-20 until late May.

LTownZag
04-06-2019, 11:21 AM
Historically, GU players are nearly always last to declare.

Think NWG and/or Collins 2 yrs ago.

Collins declared later and NWG declared on the 2nd to last day possible.

A whole process is expected at GU. Exit interview, 1 on 1 meet with every Coach, family, sometimes Coaches with family, occasionally meeting with the team, and finally setting up academic parameters for anearly exit (which means something to our players).

GU does it right. No rock left unturned and to make it smooth, seamless, confident and possible.

Not to mention, our Coaches have said in past they also like to speak with NBA scouts, GM's, coaches on behalf of their players to give them the best information possible. To make an informed decision. A realistic decision.

I suspect this is occurring now. No GU player rushes this process and the Coaches want the best for them as well.

Considering we have (4) players declaring early, and (2) of them hiring agents, the coaching staff are busy and involves helping them along.

Even IF Norvell returns, he is going to get the best info possible as our Coaches are the best at assisting in this process.

Gonzaga is unique, even with the transition the the NBA.


Thanks for this fantastic description and perspective. It drives home the idea that someone is a Zag for life.

Do you know if this kind of process is similar with other top schools (who don't get many 1-and-dones) such as Villanova or MSU?

Is the Gonzaga process particularly unusual?

Markburn1
04-06-2019, 03:23 PM
Just guessing but would think that participating and having an excellent "combine" would determine where you might get drafted. So if Rui does really well he could easily move up the board...I also think it depends on the needs/wants of the teams and who is available...

With Rui's work ethic, I would not be surprised if he isn't chosen between 4-10 in the lottery.

I'll bet Zion, RJ and Ja won't participate...JMHO

Pretty rare for any dramatic improvement in draft status because of combine performance. Especially potential first rounders. The GM's and scouts already know what you can do. That's why the very top guys don't go because of the downside of having a bad week.

seacatfan
04-06-2019, 03:36 PM
Whoops......but the same lesson applies …..if you get a chance....take the MAN.....don't over think it....

Portland repeated the same mistake in taking Oden over Durant. That really worked out well. In both cases they gambled on a big man with a previous history of injuries, neither of whom played much in the NBA and had almost no impact. The 2 guys they passed on turned out OK.

DixieZag
04-06-2019, 04:01 PM
I do not like Pearl, and wouldn't really understand someone who did.

But he must be able to coach, and not just recruit.

I don't like saying it.

But he's up 3 at the half at the Final Four, and we're not. Not that I'd trade coaches.

Also, ever since I saw the Zags on the floor at the Final Four, I love that shiny dome floor "look" of the Final Four, and wanna see the Zags on it again.

I used to get jacked at the chance to see the Zags on "TV"

CDC84
04-06-2019, 10:22 PM
I know this is obvious, but the NBA has to invite you to the combine, and I believe there is a cap on the amount of players they will invite. There is no 100% guarantee that Norvell will get invited. I think he should, but that's just me.

Zagceo
04-06-2019, 10:33 PM
I know this is obvious, but the NBA has to invite you to the combine, and I believe there is a cap on the amount of players they will invite. There is no 100% guarantee that Norvell will get invited. I think he should, but that's just me.

and think you can only go once.

tummydoc
04-06-2019, 11:03 PM
and think you can only go once.Changed in 2016. Players may declare and enter the combine multiple times. The NBA teams vote each year to determine the number of invites, but it's never been more than 69 players.

MileHigh
04-07-2019, 07:12 AM
I know this is obvious, but the NBA has to invite you to the combine, and I believe there is a cap on the amount of players they will invite. There is no 100% guarantee that Norvell will get invited. I think he should, but that's just me.

About 60 players get invited to the NBA combine in Chicago in mid May, but starting this year there are another 40 or so draft eligible players invited to the G -league elite camp that is held the 2 days prior to the combine in Chicago. NBA folks will be at both so you are looking at 100 or so that will be able to be evaluated playing against other draft prospects. The scouting staff from every NBA team votes on who should be invited and top 60 vote getters go to combine and next 40 go to g-League camp.

Rui, Clarke, and Tillie I think get invited to combine. Norvell, Josh, and maybe Geno likely to the G league camp......but that is just my guess

basketballzag
04-09-2019, 09:56 AM
About 60 players get invited to the NBA combine in Chicago in mid May, but starting this year there are another 40 or so draft eligible players invited to the G -league elite camp that is held the 2 days prior to the combine in Chicago. NBA folks will be at both so you are looking at 100 or so that will be able to be evaluated playing against other draft prospects. The scouting staff from every NBA team votes on who should be invited and top 60 vote getters go to combine and next 40 go to g-League camp.

Rui, Clarke, and Tillie I think get invited to combine. Norvell, Josh, and maybe Geno likely to the G league camp......but that is just my guess

So far over 58 underclassmen have declared for the NBA Draft which is just absurd. It is ashame that many of those are getting such terrible advice and have signed with an agent.

Average Ages for all NBA Teams.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D2yMNZTUcAAr9hq.jpg:large

Zags_Fanatic
04-09-2019, 10:14 AM
So far over 58 underclassmen have declared for the NBA Draft which is just absurd. It is ashame that many of those are getting such terrible advice and have signed with an agent.


Why is it a shame? Now that the rules have loosened up it seems like a lot of these players can benefit by going through the process and getting feedback. Agents can pay for their expenses and players can still return to school if they want to. Even some undrafted players that go through the combine can go back to school if they choose. That's not to say that the agents won't pressure them into going pro, that's kinda their job, but going through the process could still help them make the right decision for their future.

https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2019/nba-draft-ncaa-agent-rules-changes-explained

FlyZag
04-09-2019, 10:25 AM
Why is it a shame? Now that the rules have loosened up it seems like a lot of these players can benefit by going through the process and getting feedback. Agents can pay for their expenses and players can still return to school if they want to. Even some undrafted players that go through the combine can go back to school if they choose. That's not to say that the agents won't pressure them into going pro, that's kinda their job, but going through the process could still help them make the right decision for their future.

https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2019/nba-draft-ncaa-agent-rules-changes-explained

The caveat I believe, is that in order to return to school and not lose eligibility (if hired an agent), you must be one of the players selected to go to the combine. So if you hire an agent, go through the pre-draft eval, choose to stay in the draft process and then are not selected for the combine (top 60), you cannot return to school. Getting accurate pre-draft eval is as important as ever.

Mr Vulture
04-09-2019, 11:46 AM
Why is it a shame? Now that the rules have loosened up it seems like a lot of these players can benefit by going through the process and getting feedback. Agents can pay for their expenses and players can still return to school if they want to. Even some undrafted players that go through the combine can go back to school if they choose. That's not to say that the agents won't pressure them into going pro, that's kinda their job, but going through the process could still help them make the right decision for their future.

https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2019/nba-draft-ncaa-agent-rules-changes-explained

From what I read last week is that college athletes cannot hire an agent in a true sense. They can have an agent pay for meals and transportation for the "agent selection process" and the same for meetings with NBA teams. However, that relationship has to be disclosed to the NCAA and if the player comes back to school the agent relationship has to end. Nothing can be given to any player or family member still so it's not a true agent relationship. Granted, the player will likely choose that agent when they do turn pro so there is that.

As for guys making a mistake declaring for the draft, it really doesn't hurt as they will get their evaluation. If they are a player that was invited to the combine and they weren't drafted, they'd retain the right to go back to school as long as they "notify their athletic director by 5pm the Monday after the draft."

CDC84
04-09-2019, 12:12 PM
About 60 players get invited to the NBA combine in Chicago in mid May, but starting this year there are another 40 or so draft eligible players invited to the G -league elite camp that is held the 2 days prior to the combine in Chicago. NBA folks will be at both so you are looking at 100 or so that will be able to be evaluated playing against other draft prospects. The scouting staff from every NBA team votes on who should be invited and top 60 vote getters go to combine and next 40 go to g-League camp.

Rui, Clarke, and Tillie I think get invited to combine. Norvell, Josh, and maybe Geno likely to the G league camp......but that is just my guess

Thanks for the updated info. It seems as if we are seeing changes every year. Good changes.

I am so glad we got out of that nasty situation that Roy Williams pushed which forced players to decide on whether or not they were going to go pro soon after the final four with no turning back. It was one of the most selfish agendas the NABC has ever pushed. It didn't allow players to get any sort of proper evaluation. I remember one college basketball analyst said that the only reason why coaches backed it (not universally) was so that they could hit the golf courses earlier.

gonstu
04-09-2019, 12:17 PM
About 60 players get invited to the NBA combine in Chicago in mid May, but starting this year there are another 40 or so draft eligible players invited to the G -league elite camp that is held the 2 days prior to the combine in Chicago. NBA folks will be at both so you are looking at 100 or so that will be able to be evaluated playing against other draft prospects. The scouting staff from every NBA team votes on who should be invited and top 60 vote getters go to combine and next 40 go to g-League camp.

Rui, Clarke, and Tillie I think get invited to combine. Norvell, Josh, and maybe Geno likely to the G league camp......but that is just my guess

Hope you stick around the board MileHigh - even with JP gone - you have insightful posts and contribute a great perspective to the board!

strikenowhere
04-09-2019, 12:24 PM
Hope you stick around the board MileHigh - even with JP gone - you have insightful posts and contribute a great perspective to the board!

+1

CDC84
04-09-2019, 12:31 PM
Historically, GU players are nearly always last to declare.

Think NWG and/or Collins 2 yrs ago.

Collins declared later and NWG declared on the 2nd to last day possible.

A whole process is expected at GU. Exit interview, 1 on 1 meet with every Coach, family, sometimes Coaches with family, occasionally meeting with the team, and finally setting up academic parameters for anearly exit (which means something to our players).

GU does it right. No rock left unturned and to make it smooth, seamless, confident and possible.

Not to mention, our Coaches have said in past they also like to speak with NBA scouts, GM's, coaches on behalf of their players to give them the best information possible. To make an informed decision. A realistic decision.

I suspect this is occurring now. No GU player rushes this process and the Coaches want the best for them as well.

Considering we have (4) players declaring early, and (2) of them hiring agents, the coaching staff are busy and involves helping them along.

Even IF Norvell returns, he is going to get the best info possible as our Coaches are the best at assisting in this process.

Gonzaga is unique, even with the transition the the NBA.

This is the perfect explanation for what typically happens at Gonzaga. The coaches really do care about the players, and they wish to assist them with making the best decision possible. It could be argued that some didn't take the advice of the coaches, but the staff understand that it is ultimately the player's choice, and the occasional bad choice comes with the territory. But to sit there and not do anything is really bad if you're a big time D-1 head coach. These guys have so many connections and have so many ways to get input that a player cannot get for himself. I also know the best head coaches will also assist with the search for an agent once a decision has been reached.

CDC84
04-09-2019, 12:46 PM
It was Sam Bowie. They would've been better off with Perkins.

Yet another Blazer player whose whole playing career went down the toilet due to injuries. I mean, still no excuse for not taking MJ, but Bowie could play.

There is a great story in Tarkanian's autobiography about Kentucky literally renting an apartment next to Bowie's high school during his recruiting process. Poor Tark at UNLV had to battle against that in his effort to get Bowie. Bowie, honestly, was one of the very few big name recruits that Tark went after. He was extremely selective.

jazzdelmar
04-09-2019, 04:41 PM
Zags slip on Bleacher Report....

16. Brooklyn Nets: Brandon Clarke (Gonzaga, PF, Junior)

Clarke averaged 20.3 points, 10.0 rebounds and 3.8 blocks through four NCAA tournament games, further strengthening his case as a potential lottery pick. He won't win over every front office as a 22-year-old with a limited offensive game. But the Nets, now a playoff team, could value his motor and athleticism in an energy role right away.

19. Indiana Pacers: Rui Hachimura (Gonzaga, PF, Junior)

With averages of 0.4 threes, 6.5 rebounds 1.5 assists and 0.7 blocks, Hachimura lacks a role-player skill set. On the other hand, the athletic 6'8" forward averaged 19.7 points on 60.6 percent shooting from two-point range, and his scoring ability inside the arc should still hold value. He'd give the Pacers a back-to-the-basket option and face-up threat to drive or make the mid-range jumper.

SunDevilGolfZag
04-09-2019, 08:38 PM
Hope you stick around the board MileHigh - even with JP gone - you have insightful posts and contribute a great perspective to the board!

+1 !

GeorgiaZagFan
04-09-2019, 09:19 PM
I know we all have our feelings on who is ready and who isn't ready for the NBA right now. The thing we have to remember though is that declaring for the draft doesn't mean you are definately going pro. Considering that none of our kids have declared previously, I think it is good for both the player and the team if they went through the process at least. All four of Rui, Clarke, Tillie, and Norvell should declare for the draft this year IMO.

With that said, neither one of Tillie or Norvell should hire an agent (IMO) which allows them to get feedback while leaving open the option of coming back to school. I don't think that Norvell is a guy that will get drafted this year, so I'd expect him to return for one more year. With the injuries, it makes sense for Tillie to show he is healthy and get the feedback from pro personnel people as well. I think that Tillie gets drafted and I expect him to declare and ultimately stay in the draft.

The other two kids are both going to be first round picks easily, so I would personally say they should go all in to the draft. Really, the only thing that staying in school provides them is more risk of injury and another year of age which hurts in the NBA's eyes. Sure they could continue to get better but they can do that at the NBA level as well.

...I think Tillie needs another year to show he can stay healthy...and Norvell's game is nowhere near ready for the next level...the guy should stay at least 2 more years and work on his right hand and ball handling skills....

GeorgiaZagFan
04-09-2019, 09:27 PM
I am so glad we got out of that nasty situation that Roy Williams pushed which forced players to decide on whether or not they were going to go pro soon after the final four with no turning back.
Don't know where you got your information about Roy Williams..but it is not correct!!! He is 100% for the new rules about the draft and allowing the kids to have the time to evaluate their situation.

"I do think it's something that's going to help us," Williams said Thursday afternoon at Wells Fargo Center ahead of the Tar Heels' East Regional semifinal on Friday night against Indiana. "What I've always wanted is something that would really help the young men make a better decision. That's period, the end. "I'm not against guys leaving early, but I'm really in favor of them getting the best information they can possibly get. And I think this will give them a better opportunity if we can get the NBA to be truthful with them, and if we can get the kids, their family, their circle to believe the NBA as opposed to the agents. Because all of us have had guys say, "Well, you're going to be a first-round choice. That's not always true with the information they're getting."

Spike#1
04-10-2019, 09:31 AM
2019 NBA Mock Draft 6.0: Projecting All 60 Picks After March Madness from Jeremy Woo, Sports Illustrated.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/2019-nba-mock-draft-6-131500955.html

Rui at 14

14. Celtics (via Kings): Rui Hachimura, PF, Gonzaga

Height: 6'8" | Weight: 230 | Junior

There’s some split opinion on Hachimura, but his physical profile will play at the next level and give him a chance to be a contributor simply through effort and development. That aspect of his game is appealing, and while his skill set may have plateaued a bit, his offensive production was impressive. He won’t be able to play bully-ball at the next level, but if his jumper is real then there’s a pathway for him to find a fit. Boston may end up picking four times in the first round, and there should be opportunity to get creative—with Marcus Morris’ contract up, Hachimura could add useful depth at forward.

Clarke at 23

23. Jazz: Brandon Clarke, PF, Gonzaga

Height: 6’8" | Weight: 210 | Junior

Clarke is a divisive player from scout to scout—some view him as more of a second-round prospect—but his production was impressive all season and should end up carving a spot out for him in the first. His height and skill level pose limitations, and he’s unlikely to create much of his own offense, but it’s easy to see someone buying in on his athleticism, energy and defensive versatility. His upside continues to come into question, but with as good as he was this season, it will be worth someone finding out. Clarke could be a useful bench piece for the Jazz.

Norvell at 44 - No write up on Norvell

No mention of Tille

jazzdelmar
04-10-2019, 09:50 AM
Zags seem to be slipping, as ostensibly better players like Coby White enter. Drifting towards bottom of lottery. If Clarke slips to 2d round, who knows?

Therunner
04-10-2019, 09:56 AM
Most of us seem to be assuming Norvell returns next season.

Not so fast...

He is receiving SOME interest from NBA personnel.

I have a feeling he would leave if he garnered enough interest to be guaranteed a 2nd Rd pick by some team.

I think J3's recent success are giving our 'fringe' prospects more hope in taking a chance.

Obviously it would be a mistake, yet wouldn't surprise me to see Norvell leave early as well.

Zach's goal should be developing, or should I say, featuring his drives to the hoop more. He actually really good at it, yet less than 10% of his attempts were creating for himself. He is more than capable, showing/exploring a more well rounded offensive game. Floaters, finishing, drive and dish, etc. We know he can hit the 3pt shot at a reasonable/average clip, yet some of his best moments were driving to the hoop vs UNC, or Duke, etc.

Also, I have a feeling his knee is bothering him again. Not anything serious, yet soreness/aggravating type of way.

LTownZag
04-10-2019, 09:58 AM
Most of us seem to be assuming Norvell returns next season.

Not so fast...

He is receiving SOME interest from NBA personnel.

I have a feeling he would leave if he garnered enough interest to be guaranteed a 2nd Rd pick by some team.

I think J3's recent success are giving our 'fringe' prospects more hope in taking a chance.

Obviously it would be a mistake, yet wouldn't surprise me to see Norvell leave early as well.

Zach's goal should be developing, or should I say, featuring his drives to the hoop more. He actually really good at it, yet less than 10% of his attempts were creating for himself. He is more than capable, showing/exploring a more well rounded offensive game. Floaters, finishing, drive and dish, etc. We know he can hit the 3pt shot at a reasonable/average clip, yet some of his best moments were driving to the hoop vs UNC, or Duke, etc.

Also, I have a feeling his knee is bothering him again. Not anything serious, yet soreness/aggravating type of way.

He also makes 87% of his free throws and is in the middle of something like a 27-in-a-row streak from the line. It's criminal that he doesn't look to make contact and get to the stripe more often. It would also keep defenders from playing him strictly as a 3pt sniper.

Therunner
04-10-2019, 10:09 AM
He also makes 87% of his free throws and is in the middle of something like a 27-in-a-row streak from the line. It's criminal that he doesn't look to make contact and get to the stripe more often. It would also keep defenders from playing him strictly as a 3pt sniper.

he is 6'5", and looks even taller on the court and in person. He might have been our most efficient guard at finishing WHEN he actually drove it.

agree with you, he has the fearless mindset, build, game to take it in the paint -- draw a foul or make a bucket.

Could help expand his overall game and would move him up draft boards in the process.

FlyZag
04-10-2019, 11:08 AM
he is 6'5", and looks even taller on the court and in person. He might have been our most efficient guard at finishing WHEN he actually drove it.

agree with you, he has the fearless mindset, build, game to take it in the paint -- draw a foul or make a bucket.

Could help expand his overall game and would move him up draft boards in the process.

I love ZN, but IMO there are so many similar players with his skillset.

What makes Clarke, Rui, or Tillie "draftable" is what sets them apart from everyone else. Clarke is bouncy (with skill), Rui is big, quick (with skill), Tillie can stretch the floor... What does ZN provide to an NBA team that they already don't have on the roster? He's not a PG. He doesn't have super handles. He's not cat like quick. He's not a defensive stopper. The reality is he's a 37% 3pt shooter who is a good teammate and is a decent defender.

Until he improves, he won't play in the NBA... But then again, what do I know... The current ESPN mock has the following SG/SF players and I think Norvell is better than a few of these: RJ Barrett (Duke), Jarrett Culver (Texas Tech), Romeo Langford (Indiana), Kevin Porter Jr. (USC), Tyler Herro (Kentucky), Nickeill Alexander-Walker (V. Tech), Ty Jerome (Virginia), Luguentz Dort (Ariz. St.),

jazzdelmar
04-10-2019, 11:42 AM
I love ZN, but IMO there are so many similar players with his skillset.

What makes Clarke, Rui, or Tillie "draftable" is what sets them apart from everyone else. Clarke is bouncy (with skill), Rui is big, quick (with skill), Tillie can stretch the floor... What does ZN provide to an NBA team that they already don't have on the roster? He's not a PG. He doesn't have super handles. He's not cat like quick. He's not a defensive stopper. The reality is he's a 37% 3pt shooter who is a good teammate and is a decent defender.

Until he improves, he won't play in the NBA... But then again, what do I know... The current ESPN mock has the following SG/SF players and I think Norvell is better than a few of these: RJ Barrett (Duke), Jarrett Culver (Texas Tech), Romeo Langford (Indiana), Kevin Porter Jr. (USC), Tyler Herro (Kentucky), Nickeill Alexander-Walker (V. Tech), Ty Jerome (Virginia), Luguentz Dort (Ariz. St.),

Better than who? Name one.

LTownZag
04-10-2019, 12:02 PM
Other than Romeo, who was asked to be "the man" as a freshman on a pretty bad team, there's no basis for evaluating Norvell as better than any of those guys.

I'm a huge Norvell fan, but can you give any reason or aspect of basketball in which he's better than those guys?

Mr Vulture
04-10-2019, 12:14 PM
I love ZN, but IMO there are so many similar players with his skillset.

What makes Clarke, Rui, or Tillie "draftable" is what sets them apart from everyone else. Clarke is bouncy (with skill), Rui is big, quick (with skill), Tillie can stretch the floor... What does ZN provide to an NBA team that they already don't have on the roster? He's not a PG. He doesn't have super handles. He's not cat like quick. He's not a defensive stopper. The reality is he's a 37% 3pt shooter who is a good teammate and is a decent defender.

Until he improves, he won't play in the NBA... But then again, what do I know... The current ESPN mock has the following SG/SF players and I think Norvell is better than a few of these: RJ Barrett (Duke), Jarrett Culver (Texas Tech), Romeo Langford (Indiana), Kevin Porter Jr. (USC), Tyler Herro (Kentucky), Nickeill Alexander-Walker (V. Tech), Ty Jerome (Virginia), Luguentz Dort (Ariz. St.),

Norvell isn't even close to the realm of most of these guys. I'm all for liking our Zag kids but come on now...LOL

jazzdelmar
04-10-2019, 02:08 PM
Norvell isn't even close to the realm of most of these guys. I'm all for liking our Zag kids but come on now...LOL

Silly season is here.

CDC84
04-10-2019, 02:17 PM
Norvell MUST return to GU. Test the process? Absolutely. The great thing about him is that the things he needs to work on are so clear, and he has shown an ability to make great improvements. His improvement on defense between his freshman and sophomore years was lights out. However, he desperately needs to do the following:

1) Continue to improve his defense

2) Must develop a mid range game

3) Must develop a floater for fast breaks to avoid charges

4) Must develop a more CONSISTENT 3 point jump shot. It's not enough to shoot a great percentage. Norvell has too many games where he goes 2-8, 1-8, 4-5, 2-11, 8-9.

5) Continue to improve his shot selection. Three pointers early in the shot clock are generally out of rhythm and not good shots.

6) Understand when he is not in a good long range shooting position. For instance, he will sometimes get a pass at his ankles, and after he collects it, he'll launch up a three because he has a brief open look. He needs to eat it.

7) As others have said, he needs to attack the basket more. This is the case with so many long range shooters. First off, it keeps the defense honest. Secondly, as stated above, it takes advantage of Norvell's great foul shooting ability. But most of all, just seeing the ball go through the rim gets a shooter going. It empowers them. However, in order for him to better attack the basket, as I said, he needs to develop a mid range game, and develop a floater. He's already got an incredible reverse layup that is unstoppable. See the one from the 2nd half of the Duke game. Total pro move. He finishes well around the basket and is not afraid of contact. He's also deadly on the fast break when he gets a full head of steam and a perfectly timed pass (2nd half at St. Mary's comes to mind).

I know that seems like a lot, and it does show he needs to return to Gonzaga. However, I firmly believe in Norvell's talent, and I believe he can improve in all of these areas. If he does that, we're going to have another Gonzaga guard in the NBA one day. He has nice size for the shooting guard position, and while he doesn't possess breathtaking athleticism, he's more athletic than people think, and he's got so many things (like his ability to hit tough, contested shots) that will help him workaround the lack of insane athleticism that we see from many NBA perimeters.

GonzagasaurusFlex
04-10-2019, 05:19 PM
Norvell MUST return to GU. Test the process? Absolutely. The great thing about him is that the things he needs to work on are so clear, and he has shown an ability to make great improvements. His improvement on defense between his freshman and sophomore years was lights out. However, he desperately needs to do the following:

1) Continue to improve his defense

2) Must develop a mid range game

3) Must develop a floater for fast breaks to avoid charges

4) Must develop a more CONSISTENT 3 point jump shot. It's not enough to shoot a great percentage. Norvell has too many games where he goes 2-8, 1-8, 4-5, 2-11, 8-9.

5) Continue to improve his shot selection. Three pointers early in the shot clock are generally out of rhythm and not good shots.

6) Understand when he is not in a good long range shooting position. For instance, he will sometimes get a pass at his ankles, and after he collects it, he'll launch up a three because he has a brief open look. He needs to eat it.

7) As others have said, he needs to attack the basket more. This is the case with so many long range shooters. First off, it keeps the defense honest. Secondly, as stated above, it takes advantage of Norvell's great foul shooting ability. But most of all, just seeing the ball go through the rim gets a shooter going. It empowers them. However, in order for him to better attack the basket, as I said, he needs to develop a mid range game, and develop a floater. He's already got an incredible reverse layup that is unstoppable. See the one from the 2nd half of the Duke game. Total pro move. He finishes well around the basket and is not afraid of contact. He's also deadly on the fast break when he gets a full head of steam and a perfectly timed pass (2nd half at St. Mary's comes to mind).

I know that seems like a lot, and it does show he needs to return to Gonzaga. However, I firmly believe in Norvell's talent, and I believe he can improve in all of these areas. If he does that, we're going to have another Gonzaga guard in the NBA one day. He has nice size for the shooting guard position, and while he doesn't possess breathtaking athleticism, he's more athletic than people think, and he's got so many things (like his ability to hit tough, contested shots) that will help him workaround the lack of insane athleticism that we see from many NBA perimeters.

I would add, before any of the above, improve his handles and work on developing a lower center of gravity when dribbling into traffic...he’s not athletic enough to play the off guard position at next level. I hope he develops PG skills.

FlyZag
04-11-2019, 08:15 AM
Better than who? Name one.

Kevin Porter Jr.

Nickeill Alexander-Walker

and maybe Ty Jerome

jazzdelmar
04-11-2019, 08:29 AM
Kevin Porter Jr.

Nickeill Alexander-Walker

and maybe Ty Jerome

No words. Chux is the antithesis of Ty Jerome.

LTownZag
04-11-2019, 09:32 AM
No words. Chux is the antithesis of Ty Jerome.

Do we get the privilege of seeing you repeatedly amuse yourself with a patronizing nickname for Norvell during his entire career, or just for this offseason?

For reference, Zach shot the 3pointer better than Perkins this year in a significantly larger sample size. He shot 3s at 2 tenths of 1 percent worse than Kispert. (Norvell makes 1 more, or Kispert misses 1 more, and Norvell's percentage is higher).

Norvell's closest GU comparison player I could find in school history is Blake Stepp - a similar sized off-guard who played his first two years recording nearly identical stats to Norvell. Neither of those guys are 1st-round NBA types (the names and topic of this thread).

Norvell shot better than Stepp from 3, from 2, from the FT line, had more rebounds, and had far fewer turnovers. He played better defense than Stepp and unlike Stepp he didn't play his first two years alongside an elite scoring (all american) guard to draw the opponents premier defender.

Before you reflexively respond with an arrogant one-liner consider that Norvell's game-to-game 3pt variance had the lowest standard deviation (http://guboards.spokesmanreview.com/showthread.php?65454-PSA-FSU-is-Not-Deep/page2&highlight=deviation) of any of the top 6 3pt shooters from our sweet 16 (FSU) game. His willingness to take and ability to hit big 3s, especially late in games, has arguably been responsible for recent comeback wins against Creighton, Creighton again, UNCG in the tournament, tOSU in the tournament, and for burying FSU in the sweet 16 this year.

MDABE80
04-11-2019, 09:51 AM
LTown……… lots more to a game and a player than stats. Some would have you believe that our most recent PG was equal to Nigel Williams Goss because they shared some stats. Never In a million years! lol
\Meanwhile Jazz is Jazz and has been with us for well past 10 years. Usually right in his assertions but some do get annoyed. The big boy pants will help you. All is in good fun..,,albeit disguised at times.

Spike#1
04-11-2019, 09:55 AM
I don't know if amused or annoyed is the right word, probably annoyed at the number of posters that all try to "coin" the nickname of the incoming GU players. As if they really, truly hope it sticks, and somehow that poster will go down in history as the one who first invented or said the nickname. It's really kind of ridiculous, specifically when said GU player already has an established nickname. Every year... And so it goes with the new incoming players, inane.

Ladyzag12
04-11-2019, 09:58 AM
Zach is an elite shooter. That is what he will bring to the pro game. He will never be asked to handle the ball at the next level, and will only drive if he faces a tough closeout. He will never be higher than a late first and that is okay. Sure he can stay a year, but I'm not sure exactly what he will expand on at the college level that will make him that much better of a pro prospect.

FlyZag
04-11-2019, 10:01 AM
No words. Chux is the antithesis of Ty Jerome.

You asked for ONE, I gave you TWO and a "maybe" for a third. But since your comment of "antithesis"... here are some stats from Kenpom:

offensive rating:
Jerome = 109.6 (FR), 109.4 (SO), 119.1 (JR)
Norvell = 119.1 (FR), 121.5 (SO)

% Possessions:
Jerome= 18.4 (FR), 21.9 (SO), 24.1 (JR)
Norvell = 21.9 (FR), 21.7 (SO)

% Shots:
Jerome = 17.6 (FR), 22.4 (SO), 24.3 (JR)
Norvell = 23.4 (FR), 24.4 (SO)

efective fg%:
Jerome = 60.5 (FR), 51.3 (SO), 53.2 (JR)
Norvell = 56.5 (FR), 55.0 (SO)

OR/DR%
Jerome = .3/14.5 (FR), 1.4/11.3 (SO), 1.8/13 (JR)
Norvell = 4.7/11.3 (FR), 3.2/11.6 (SO)

A rate/ TO rate
Jerome = 21.2/22.9 (FR), 25.6/15.6 (SO), 32.6/13.3 (JR)
Norvell = 14.4/15.2 (FR), 16/12.1 (SO)

Blk%/Slt %
Jerome = .6/2.1 (FR), .1/3.5(SO), .1/3.0(JR)
Norvell = .3/2.4 (FR), .3/2.3 (SO)

Fouls committed/Fouls drawn/FT rate
Jerome = 5.0/2.1/16.4 (FR), 3.0/2.5/13.3 (SO), 2.0/3.1/22.2 (JR)
Norvell = 3.2/3.6/25.5 (FR), 2.4/3.5/25.1

FT%/2p%/3p%
Jerome = .778/.622/.397 (FR), .905/.460/.379 (SO), .736/.469/.399 (JR)
Norvell = .800/.579/.370 (FR), .867/.541/.370 (SO)

former1dog
04-11-2019, 10:01 AM
LTown……… lots more to a game and a player than stats. Some would have you believe that our most recent PG was equal to Nigel Williams Goss because they shared some stats. Never In a million years! lol
\Meanwhile Jazz is Jazz and has been with us for well past 10 years. Usually right in his assertions but some do get annoyed. The big boy pants will help you. All is in good fun..,,albeit disguised at times.

Completely nonsensical Abe.

And now you're back to disparaging Josh Perkins! Come on!

LTownZag
04-11-2019, 10:36 AM
LTown……… lots more to a game and a player than stats. Some would have you believe that our most recent PG was equal to Nigel Williams Goss because they shared some stats. Never In a million years! lol
\Meanwhile Jazz is Jazz and has been with us for well past 10 years. Usually right in his assertions but some do get annoyed. The big boy pants will help you. All is in good fun..,,albeit disguised at times.

MDABE80 - This is a serious question and not meant to be flippant: what is the most important trait (or a few of the most important traits) to a player that aren't measured or represented in modern available data?

I get the impression Jazz is a very smart person and to me that makes his insistence on particular bugaboos and repetitions all the more inextricable. He could contribute something new or worthy of consideration and analysis.

What are the odds that Jazz knew Norvell was the team's best 3 point shooter (among the starters) or that his attempts per game already came down significantly in the final 3rd of the season?

Probably not very good since the "chux" schtick began around the time Norvell was becoming more judicious with his shot selection while leading the team from deep.

jazzdelmar
04-11-2019, 11:05 AM
Our 3 sharpshooters, Norvell, Kispert, Perkins each shot 37% from LD. Your comment baffles me. And 37% is not very good.




MDABE80 - This is a serious question and not meant to be flippant: what is the most important trait (or a few of the most important traits) to a player that aren't measured or represented in modern available data?

I get the impression Jazz is a very smart person and to me that makes his insistence on particular bugaboos and repetitions all the more inextricable. He could contribute something new or worthy of consideration and analysis.

What are the odds that Jazz knew Norvell was the team's best 3 point shooter (among the starters) or that his attempts per game already came down significantly in the final 3rd of the season?

Probably not very good since the "chux" schtick began around the time Norvell was becoming more judicious with his shot selection while leading the team from deep.

former1dog
04-11-2019, 11:10 AM
Our 3 sharpshooters, Norvell, Kispert, Perkins each shot 37% from LD. Your comment baffles me. And 37% is not very good.

I'm baffled that you don't understand LTownZag doesn't like your reference to Zach Norvell as "Chux". Its not nice, simple as that.

Markburn1
04-11-2019, 11:11 AM
Zach is an elite shooter. That is what he will bring to the pro game. He will never be asked to handle the ball at the next level, and will only drive if he faces a tough closeout. He will never be higher than a late first and that is okay. Sure he can stay a year, but I'm not sure exactly what he will expand on at the college level that will make him that much better of a pro prospect.

Elite Shooter??? Please. We're talking about 20'9" in the college game. Zach is 37% from there.

There are currently seventy five players in the NBA shooting a better percentage than that from 23'9".

caldwellzag
04-11-2019, 11:27 AM
What do we think the chances of BC returning for his senior year are? How about Rui?

I heard some rumblings that Rui's parents want him to get his degree and BC liked on IG the announcement from the Oregon girl about unfinished business... Just throwing it out there (and maybe you have already discussed this I just don't think it's a slam dunk that they are gone).

Markburn1
04-11-2019, 11:28 AM
MDABE80 - This is a serious question and not meant to be flippant: what is the most important trait (or a few of the most important traits) to a player that aren't measured or represented in modern available data?

I get the impression Jazz is a very smart person and to me that makes his insistence on particular bugaboos and repetitions all the more inextricable. He could contribute something new or worthy of consideration and analysis.

What are the odds that Jazz knew Norvell was the team's best 3 point shooter (among the starters) or that his attempts per game already came down significantly in the final 3rd of the season?

Probably not very good since the "chux" schtick began around the time Norvell was becoming more judicious with his shot selection while leading the team from deep.

Statistics are a reference point. Not the be all, end all discussion killer you make them out to be.

Some players know when to create their own shots and when to create for teammates. Some players stretch the floor thereby creating better shot opportunities for others. Some players lock down the opposing player thereby creating chances for steals and deflections by others. Some players accumulate stats against inferior competition and wilt against more elite players. Some players inspire their teammates to expend more effort because of their example. Some players box out the opposition while their teammates pick up rebounding stats. Some players are able to organize their teammates making themselves and others more efficient.

I could go on for days and none of it would have to do with measuring a player by stats.

katman50
04-11-2019, 11:30 AM
I'm baffled that you don't understand LTownZag doesn't like your reference to Zach Norvell as "Chux". Its not nice, simple as that.

A silly and irritating nickname.

sittingon50
04-11-2019, 11:36 AM
We're inching towards taco territory.

strikenowhere
04-11-2019, 11:46 AM
What do we think the chances of BC returning for his senior year are? How about Rui?

I heard some rumblings that Rui's parents want him to get his degree and BC liked on IG the announcement from the Oregon girl about unfinished business... Just throwing it out there (and maybe you have already discussed this I just don't think it's a slam dunk that they are gone).

Oh man - while it would be amazing if they stayed, I just can't see foregoing $$$ just to come back for another season. That, plus what the heck is going to happen with the backlog of freshmen? If Tillie, Clarke, & Hachimura stay, that basically means that the entire set of front court recruits would need to redshirt (except maybe Watson) as there would be ZERO playing time available. That would be Ballo, Zakharov, Arlauskas, and Timme! Even Petrusev would be in a crappy situation, stuck another year behind the players he barely played with this year. There would almost certainly be transfers and/or decommits.

LTownZag
04-11-2019, 11:56 AM
Our 3 sharpshooters, Norvell, Kispert, Perkins each shot 37% from LD. Your comment baffles me. And 37% is not very good.

You are entitled to your own opinions (and demeaning nicknames) but not your own facts:

Norvell - .372% 9.2 attempts per 40min
Perkins - .366% 5.0 attempts per 40min
Kispert 0 .374% 6.7 attempts per 40min


As to if 37% is "good" or "good enough": Do you know the league average for 3pt% to compare it to as a benchmark? Do you know how that number has changed in recent years?



There were only 8 teams from the P6 conferences (10%) and 10% of teams overall in D1 basketball that shot better than that from the 3. Norvell's 3pt% was 89th in the nation for an individual player. "Not very good".

LTownZag
04-11-2019, 12:00 PM
Statistics are a reference point. Not the be all, end all discussion killer you make them out to be.



I don't make statistics into a be-all-end-all discussion killer. If I did, why would I have respectfully asked MDABE to suggest some of the things that statistics miss out on?

I do know that statistics aren't prone to some of the many biases which humans typically fall prey to. But at no point did I ever make the claim that you are saddling me with, and I'd still love listening to a discussion about some of the player values and abilities (intangibles?) that aren't measured currently. I appreciate you listing a few such examples.

There are, of course, some statistics that already exist are harder to find in organized and published forms. An example might be shooting percentage in "clutch" situations, VS in general. Baseball has the idea of OPS w/RISP, maybe basketball should look at FG or FT percentage when the game is within 5 points or something...

LTownZag
04-11-2019, 12:10 PM
A silly and irritating nickname.

Personally I think it's the inability for the nicknames to be respectful, clever, or even accurate.
Get 2 out of 3 right. Heck, even 1 out of 3...

Call JW3 "Mr. Free Throw" or call Karnowski "Hops" and I at least admire the irony and accuracy. Those guys couldn't hit free throws or jump over a pencil. But pushing the "chux" is like something my 8yr old son would do to his little sister.

Markburn1
04-11-2019, 12:19 PM
You are entitled to your own opinions (and demeaning nicknames) but not your own facts:

Norvell - .372% 9.2 attempts per 40min
Perkins - .366% 5.0 attempts per 40min
Kispert 0 .374% 6.7 attempts per 40min


As to if 37% is "good" or "good enough": Do you know the league average for 3pt% to compare it to as a benchmark? Do you know how that number has changed in recent years?



There were only 8 teams from the P6 conferences (10%) and 10% of teams overall in D1 basketball that shot better than that from the 3. Norvell's 3pt% was 89th in the nation for an individual player. "Not very good".

I can't find Zach's name in the top 100 on ESPN or Team Rankings. But, let's assume that 89th is where he is.

That means, accounting for some teams with more than one player on the list, there are more than sixty to seventy teams with shooters better than Zach statistically speaking. Not very good.

Also, Zach had multiple attempts early in the shot clock that hurt his team. There were potentially better opportunities available for him and his teammates. That's why, even with all the numbers you refer to, at this point in his career he's seen as more of a gunner than an elite shooter.

Zach is a nice piece to have. I'm anticipating significant improvement from him next year in both shot selection, leadership and FG percentages at all three levels.

But, he is not ready for the NBA.

OntZags
04-11-2019, 12:23 PM
What do we think the chances of BC returning for his senior year are? How about Rui?

I heard some rumblings that Rui's parents want him to get his degree and BC liked on IG the announcement from the Oregon girl about unfinished business... Just throwing it out there (and maybe you have already discussed this I just don't think it's a slam dunk that they are gone).

Dude, don't do this to me...

caldwellzag
04-11-2019, 12:47 PM
Dude, don't do this to me...

Just throwing it out there. Neither has declared yet so...

Ladyzag12
04-11-2019, 12:51 PM
I can't find Zach's name in the top 100 on ESPN or Team Rankings. But, let's assume that 89th is where he is.

That means, accounting for some teams with more than one player on the list, there are more than sixty to seventy teams with shooters better than Zach statistically speaking. Not very good.

Also, Zach had multiple attempts early in the shot clock that hurt his team. There were potentially better opportunities available for him and his teammates. That's why, even with all the numbers you refer to, at this point in his career he's seen as more of a gunner than an elite shooter.

Zach is a nice piece to have. I'm anticipating significant improvement from him next year in both shot selection, leadership and FG percentages at all three levels.

But, he is not ready for the NBA.

You have to factor in not only percentage, but also volume and location when you evaluate a shooter. That is why Curry is undeniably the best shooter in the history of the game. You have to judge three pointers based on spacing and how open they were. An open three is a good shot for Zach regardless of what the shot clock is. If he is taking a three early in the shot clock, that normally means we are in transition and the defense is not set, giving him space.

phxfireflames
04-11-2019, 12:52 PM
Just throwing it out there. Neither has declared yet so...

Word on the street is Rui/BC/Tillie are working on a collaborative piece for the player's tribune. :D

caldwellzag
04-11-2019, 12:55 PM
Word on the street is Rui/BC/Tillie are working on a collaborative piece for the player's tribune. :D

I am sure all three test the draft waters, just seeing what people thought. When BC liked the unfinished business comment from the Oregon girl, I thought that was interesting.

MDABE80
04-11-2019, 12:55 PM
Statistics are a reference point. Not the be all, end all discussion killer you make them out to be.

Some players know when to create their own shots and when to create for teammates. Some players stretch the floor thereby creating better shot opportunities for others. Some players lock down the opposing player thereby creating chances for steals and deflections by others. Some players accumulate stats against inferior competition and wilt against more elite players. Some players inspire their teammates to expend more effort because of their example. Some players box out the opposition while their teammates pick up rebounding stats. Some players are able to organize their teammates making themselves and others more efficient.

I could go on for days and none of it would have to do with measuring a player by stats.

This is why Nigel reigns supreme in the modern era GU PG slot . It so much his data as an individual. He just knew how to run a team and win.. Truly a conglomerate of all things plus his stats.

sylean
04-11-2019, 12:57 PM
I LOVE BC.....but he needs to do what he needs to do....if it means its the nba, then he should go.......personally, I'd love him to stay...he is one beautiful bb player.....

jazzdelmar
04-11-2019, 12:58 PM
A silly and irritating nickname.

Consider it trashed. Like Few32. :D

LongIslandZagFan
04-11-2019, 01:06 PM
Consider it trashed. Like Few32. :D

Maybe any pejorative nicknames of players and/or coaches should be thought about before being typed. Just sayin' as it isn't a good look for the person typing them.

roxdoc
04-11-2019, 01:35 PM
Do we get the privilege of seeing you repeatedly amuse yourself with a patronizing nickname for Norvell during his entire career, or just for this offseason?

For reference, Zach shot the 3pointer better than Perkins this year in a significantly larger sample size. He shot 3s at 2 tenths of 1 percent worse than Kispert. (Norvell makes 1 more, or Kispert misses 1 more, and Norvell's percentage is higher).

Norvell's closest GU comparison player I could find in school history is Blake Stepp - a similar sized off-guard who played his first two years recording nearly identical stats to Norvell. Neither of those guys are 1st-round NBA types (the names and topic of this thread).

Norvell shot better than Stepp from 3, from 2, from the FT line, had more rebounds, and had far fewer turnovers. He played better defense than Stepp and unlike Stepp he didn't play his first two years alongside an elite scoring (all american) guard to draw the opponents premier defender.

Before you reflexively respond with an arrogant one-liner consider that Norvell's game-to-game 3pt variance had the lowest standard deviation (http://guboards.spokesmanreview.com/showthread.php?65454-PSA-FSU-is-Not-Deep/page2&highlight=deviation) of any of the top 6 3pt shooters from our sweet 16 (FSU) game. His willingness to take and ability to hit big 3s, especially late in games, has arguably been responsible for recent comeback wins against Creighton, Creighton again, UNCG in the tournament, tOSU in the tournament, and for burying FSU in the sweet 16 this year.

Last 5 games (StM -TT) 2pt conversions: 5/18: 27.8%, 3pt conversions 10/39: 25.6% (incl 4/8 with FSU). A case of trying too hard?

Hope he can work on things and come back strong - we will need him

LTownZag
04-11-2019, 01:52 PM
accounting for some teams with more than one player on the list, there are more than sixty to seventy teams with shooters better than Zach statistically speaking. Not very good.

I am curious (and will not argue with) how you'd define or paramaterize being a "very good" 3pt shooter. But you and Jazz state that Norvell's not in that group despite being in the top 2% of Division 1 scholarship players by 3pt %. (Most of that top 1% 1-dimensional players at small schools who lack the all-around game for a high-major program).


Zach is a nice piece to have. I'm anticipating significant improvement from him next year in both shot selection, leadership and FG percentages at all three levels.

What are the 3 levels?



But, he is not ready for the NBA.

I agree. (though I think many draft picks are not, yet some guys with long careers have spent their first league year/s getting ready)

Markburn1
04-11-2019, 02:17 PM
I am curious (and will not argue with) how you'd define or paramaterize being a "very good" 3pt shooter. But you and Jazz state that Norvell's not in that group despite being in the top 2% of Division 1 scholarship players by 3pt %. (Most of that top 1% 1-dimensional players at small schools who lack the all-around game for a high-major program).



What are the 3 levels?




I agree. (though I think many draft picks are not, yet some guys with long careers have spent their first league year/s getting ready)

He's a shooting guard. We are ostensibly talking about his NBA credentials. 37% from the college line is not very good for someone with NBA aspirations. It just isn't.

Level one is at the rim. Level two is the midrange. Level three is outside the three line.

Zach won't be a draft pick this year. He won't even have the opportunity to get ready at the NBA level. If he goes pro, his destination is the G league or Europe.

I hope he stays and improves his game along with developing leadership skills. I think he is a good Zag both on and off the court. I'm pulling for him.

MDABE80
04-11-2019, 03:10 PM
Consistency is the hallmark of a pro. We've seen brilliant shooting as well as "can't hit the broadside of a bran" expertise. Always a mix. just become more glaring in a tight game or an important game. Im pretty sure he'll stay for the full load. As it sits now, he likes it here. Who's going to argue that he couldn't get much better working with out coaches. Besides, I love the kid even when he's off...a bit anyway:)

LTownZag
04-11-2019, 03:13 PM
We are ostensibly talking about his NBA credentials. 37% from the college line is not very good for someone with NBA aspirations. It just isn't.



I didn't realize he was being judged by NBA credentials in the discussion. Did anyone except you?

I agree that Zach Norvell is not a "very good" NBA player. (or prospect)

pcm541
04-11-2019, 03:16 PM
Word on the street is Rui/BC/Tillie are working on a collaborative piece for the player's tribune. :D

Did you actually hear this or is this a joke?

Markburn1
04-11-2019, 03:16 PM
I didn't realize he was being judged by NBA credentials in the discussion. Did anyone except you?

I agree that Zach Norvell is not a "very good" NBA player. (or prospect)

The title of the thread swayed my thought patterns....

pcm541
04-11-2019, 03:23 PM
If Rui stayed he would likely be the #1 pick next year.

phxfireflames
04-11-2019, 03:25 PM
Did you actually hear this or is this a joke?

Just a theory to pass the time...

pcm541
04-11-2019, 03:29 PM
Just a theory to pass the time...

I could see it happening.

At this point I’m fully expecting Rui BC and Tillie to declare but a small part of me thinks Rui could surprise us.

phxfireflames
04-11-2019, 04:33 PM
I could see it happening.

At this point I’m fully expecting Rui BC and Tillie to declare but a small part of me thinks Rui could surprise us.

Rui and Tillie are really close. I could see Rui not wanting to leave Tillie as the only senior. Similar to Michaelson/Turiaf situation.

LTownZag
04-11-2019, 04:38 PM
I just want a Seattle NBA team again so Rui can follow in Ichiro's footsteps and stay in Washington.

maynard g krebs
04-11-2019, 05:23 PM
Norvell's 3pt% was 89th in the nation for an individual player. "Not very good".

He's 93rd on NCAA.com's list, but they only include players w/ a very high number of attempts. Kispert and Perk didn't have enough attempts to qualify.

Teamrankings.com lists the top 100 players w/ 25 or more made 3's on the season. Number 100 on that list, Dylan Windler, shot 42.9%.

Goshzagit
04-11-2019, 05:24 PM
Just throwing it out there. Neither has declared yet so...

Caldwell, you should know better than anyone...

Gonzaga players are nearly always the last to declare.

In some years they have declared on the final day possible, see NWG.

Our coaches expect and engage our players through a qualified, critical, & in depth process when/if declaring early.

They equip these guys with the best information possible to make the most informed decision possible.

We have never had up to (4) players declaring early before either. Doesn't mean all will hire agents, yet either way, they go through so many steps before announcing.

Also, they may wish/want to announce as a unified group, possibly meeting with the same agents together, etc.

Gonzaga has deep NBA connections these days as well.

bballbeachbum
04-11-2019, 05:54 PM
Statistics are a reference point. Not the be all, end all discussion killer you make them out to be.

Some players know when to create their own shots and when to create for teammates. Some players stretch the floor thereby creating better shot opportunities for others. Some players lock down the opposing player thereby creating chances for steals and deflections by others. Some players accumulate stats against inferior competition and wilt against more elite players. Some players inspire their teammates to expend more effort because of their example. Some players box out the opposition while their teammates pick up rebounding stats. Some players are able to organize their teammates making themselves and others more efficient.

I could go on for days and none of it would have to do with measuring a player by stats.

excellent post, thank you man

LTownZag
04-11-2019, 06:42 PM
He's 93rd on NCAA.com's list, but they only include players w/ a very high number of attempts. Kispert and Perk didn't have enough attempts to qualify.

Teamrankings.com lists the top 100 players w/ 25 or more made 3's on the season. Number 100 on that list, Dylan Windler, shot 42.9%.

I used the NCAA.com rankings - looks like perhaps they require at least 170 attempts (or maybe it's some number per minute or game). It appears their list though is very selective (no Cassius Winston caught my eye)

I gave him 89th because Sports Reference (https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/zach-norvelljr-1.html) has him shooting 37.2%. (The only difference is 261 attempts vs 262 attempts).

Perhaps this ESPN list which lets in players with only ~40 attempts is more helpful. (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/statistics/player/_/stat/3-points/sort/threePointFieldGoalPct/seasontype/2)

Goshzagit
04-11-2019, 07:11 PM
I don't make statistics into a be-all-end-all discussion killer. If I did, why would I have respectfully asked MDABE to suggest some of the things that statistics miss out on?

I do know that statistics aren't prone to some of the many biases which humans typically fall prey to. But at no point did I ever make the claim that you are saddling me with, and I'd still love listening to a discussion about some of the player values and abilities (intangibles?) that aren't measured currently. I appreciate you listing a few such examples.

There are, of course, some statistics that already exist are harder to find in organized and published forms. An example might be shooting percentage in "clutch" situations, VS in general. Baseball has the idea of OPS w/RISP, maybe basketball should look at FG or FT percentage when the game is within 5 points or something...

Dude, speaking of, are you human or an advanced AI bot specializing in analytical metrics and statistics?

I find your posts interesting and offer a unique insight and different perspective, yet you refuse to accept any sort of subjective opinion/analysis/sense/feeling/variability...or dare I say, human element to other perspectives.

Stats and metrics are a reference not a singularity. It works both ways.

Imagine if all players were recruited or drafted purely on mathematical equations and metrics alone?

It sure would be boring and more failures than successes would result, as this doesn't take into account players' respective leadership, various intangibles, court presence, affect on others, personality, fit, court sense, or the love for the game. Can't measure those attributes by any "stats", and while they oftengo hand in hand, and aren't mutually exclusive. You can certainly use them as a reference and guide but not the end all

jazzdelmar
04-11-2019, 07:25 PM
Taylor?



Dude, speaking of, are you human or an advanced AI bot specializing in analytical metrics and statistics?

I find your posts interesting and offer a unique insight and different perspective, yet you refuse to accept any sort of subjective opinion/analysis/sense/feeling/variability...or dare I say, human element to other perspectives.

Stats and metrics are a reference not a singularity. It works both ways.

Imagine if all players were recruited or drafted purely on mathematical equations and metrics alone?

It sure would be boring and more failures than successes would result, as this doesn't take into account players' respective leadership, various intangibles, court presence, affect on others, personality, fit, court sense, or the love for the game. Can't measure those attributes by any "stats", and while they oftengo hand in hand, and aren't mutually exclusive. You can certainly use them as a reference and guide but not the end all

LTownZag
04-11-2019, 07:25 PM
Dude, speaking of, are you human or an advanced AI bot specializing in analytical metrics and statistics?

I find your posts interesting and offer a unique insight and different perspective, yet you refuse to accept any sort of subjective opinion/analysis/sense/feeling/variability...or dare I say, human element to other perspectives.



Serious question since you are not the first to accuse me of this, but might be the first to be able to back it up:

Where have I ever "refused to accept any sort of subjective opinion"? If I did that' I'd certainly like to apologize for it. Pure subjective hunches and inklings are one of my favorite things about sports!
But when did I ever refuse to accept subjective judgement on a subject that was in fact a subjective one without elucidating data? Even on this very thread I asked for examples of player traits which could not be quantified, and I told Jazz and Mark Burn explicitly that I would accept and not argue with them categorizing Norvell as a "not good" 3 pt shooter, but I did ask for their definition of that subjective term (which would then presumably exclude a player of Norvell's accomplishments). I was told it meant he wouldn't be a good NBA player or prospect, and those goal posts got moved so fast that nobody could find them after that.

I love subjective opinions when acknowledged as such.

I'm new to basketball in the last few 5 years, coming from baseball and more quantitative pursuits. I'm ignorant enough to not trust popular narratives or my subjective judgements or eye tests to be meaningful evaluators. Still, I participate and welcome the subjective, predictive, emotional, and "hunch based" parts of this forum all the time. I'm sure if you click my account name you can see those posts including topics that I've begun which dealt in those domains.

Birddog
04-11-2019, 07:45 PM
Lots of piss and vinegar on this thread. FWIW, I have had my disagreements with Jazz but what he said on Feb 17, 2019 was prescient IMO.



My 1st game in person. Some thoughts: Perks was great, before the game he could not miss; Norvell stands out athletically, a cut above in terms of quickness, nastiness, swagger; Rui was loafing 1st half, then turned it on; Clarke was solid but again bothered by bigger stiffs. That's it. This team has 4 starters and 4 subs. Therein lay a problem, the Zags are one starter-quality player short of a F4, IMO. Few tried hard to get all the subs quality minutes and they all disappointed. Crandall is a 4th guard at best, comparing him w Jordan and Silas is laughable. Petrol played no D, none. Got turned around easily. Kispert hit early shots but then began giving them back; Jones was laxy. One player short, that could be Tils or one of the subs. We shall see....Zags were about 40% of the 5k.



When this was first posted it gave me pause.

LTownZag
04-11-2019, 08:00 PM
Lots of piss and vinegar on this thread. FWIW, I have had my disagreements with Jazz but what he said on Feb 17, 2019 was prescient IMO.




When this was first posted it gave me pause.

I agree that Jazz's take was spot-on. Look at the contributions from Jazz's "4 starters" vs "4 subs" in GU's 2 late losses. Apart from a sort of "substitution" this season due to injuries of Tillie for Clarke, it also matches with the general perception of the team pre-season. I think Jazz is perceptive.

GuZag2012
04-11-2019, 08:13 PM
2019 NBA Mock Draft 6.0: Projecting All 60 Picks After March Madness from Jeremy Woo, Sports Illustrated.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/2019-nba-mock-draft-6-131500955.html

Rui at 14

14. Celtics (via Kings): Rui Hachimura, PF, Gonzaga

Height: 6'8" | Weight: 230 | Junior

There’s some split opinion on Hachimura, but his physical profile will play at the next level and give him a chance to be a contributor simply through effort and development. That aspect of his game is appealing, and while his skill set may have plateaued a bit, his offensive production was impressive. He won’t be able to play bully-ball at the next level, but if his jumper is real then there’s a pathway for him to find a fit. Boston may end up picking four times in the first round, and there should be opportunity to get creative—with Marcus Morris’ contract up, Hachimura could add useful depth at forward.

Clarke at 23

23. Jazz: Brandon Clarke, PF, Gonzaga

Height: 6’8" | Weight: 210 | Junior

Clarke is a divisive player from scout to scout—some view him as more of a second-round prospect—but his production was impressive all season and should end up carving a spot out for him in the first. His height and skill level pose limitations, and he’s unlikely to create much of his own offense, but it’s easy to see someone buying in on his athleticism, energy and defensive versatility. His upside continues to come into question, but with as good as he was this season, it will be worth someone finding out. Clarke could be a useful bench piece for the Jazz.

Norvell at 44 - No write up on Norvell

No mention of Tille





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Goshzagit
04-11-2019, 08:35 PM
Seems to me the draft experts/analysts are much higher on Clarke than the actual hired scouts are...obviously both parties feel he is talented enough to play in the NBA, but definitely different views.

This isn't the first time I've heard or read about a writer/expert listing him as a mid 1st round pick in their respective mock draft, yet stating via paraphrase, "although one scout I spoke to questions his _____________, etc".

I feel it will be tough to predict Brandon's draft position.

If he shows off an ability to create shots for himself, a jump shot that can be trusted, & measures taller than 6'7" at combine, he could fly up draft boards. I'm just not sure about any of those....

Either way, Brandon brings enough to the table to secure a 1st Rd pick for some team.

bballbeachbum
04-11-2019, 08:51 PM
Serious question since you are not the first to accuse me of this, but might be the first to be able to back it up:

Where have I ever "refused to accept any sort of subjective opinion"? .

you refused to accept that FSU was wearing teams down becasue of your metrics, yet if you used your lone metric of point margins in the second half, you would have lost your bet 6 out of 9 games in March with FSU, and one game would have been a push (vs. NCSt,). You would have been accurate 2 out of 9 times in March, mainly becasue you refused to watch what FSU was doing down the stretch and instead just applied the numbers. They were a team that was wearing teams down, even though your metrics said they weren't, and when you got called on it, you hemmed and hawed even though statistics you chose backed up the argument against your take.

there's an example, backed up.

and it's not that you're a victim being accused...good grief lol

looking forward to you next hem haw session right now ;)

LTownZag
04-11-2019, 10:07 PM
I asked if any evidence supported the narrative that FSU was gaining advantage late by "wearing teams down" when FSU's opponents opponents actually do considerably better in 2nd halves than first halves.

Did I miss any evidence to support that narrative? Any suggestion of other types of evidence to evaluate that claim about the advantage derives by depth? I'm still open to any data related to their high bench usage having such an effect. If you know of a source for scoring margin by quarter, it would be interesting to see how bench depth correlates with scoring margin in q2 and q4.

But as far as FSU having better second half margins in their 6 final games, recency bias much? -- I'll stick with numbers from their last 60 games to evaluate a pre-tournament narrative, but also note that due to injuries FSU played an uncharacteristally shallow bench in march. Against GU just 47 bench minutes I believe. They may have finally started having better second halves as they ditched their vaunted bench depth due to extenuating circumstances.

Ladyzag12
04-12-2019, 10:48 AM
Rui and Brandon both need to go. Your stock doesn't go up coming back at their age and getting more players to the NBA helps our program. I hope Rui ends up with the Spurs. That would be a perfect fit to maximize his potential. Norvell could be a second round draft pick this year for sure. Being a second rounder doesn't mean much though. Most of the threes he takes are from behind the NBA three point line. He is one of the best shooters in the history of the program and his passing is under rated.

Vanzagger
04-12-2019, 11:07 AM
Great post

Markburn1
04-12-2019, 11:57 AM
Rui and Brandon both need to go. Your stock doesn't go up coming back at their age and getting more players to the NBA helps our program. I hope Rui ends up with the Spurs. That would be a perfect fit to maximize his potential. Norvell could be a second round draft pick this year for sure. Being a second rounder doesn't mean much though. Most of the threes he takes are from behind the NBA three point line. He is one of the best shooters in the history of the program and his passing is under rated.

He is NOT one of the best shooters in the history of the program. He is not even close.

https://zagsguru.wordpress.com/welcome/statistics/3-point-percentage-leaders/

Zach is a good player with the potential to get better. Full Stop.

jazzdelmar
04-12-2019, 11:59 AM
He is NOT one of the best shooters in the history of the program. He is not even close.

https://zagsguru.wordpress.com/welcome/statistics/3-point-percentage-leaders/

Zach is a good player with the potential to get better. Full Stop.

Is ZN the new Bol Kong? More attribution than evidence. Always good to see a KB reference.

Alum08
04-12-2019, 11:59 AM
Seems to me the draft experts/analysts are much higher on Clarke than the actual hired scouts are...obviously both parties feel he is talented enough to play in the NBA, but definitely different views.

This isn't the first time I've heard or read about a writer/expert listing him as a mid 1st round pick in their respective mock draft, yet stating via paraphrase, "although one scout I spoke to questions his _____________, etc".

I feel it will be tough to predict Brandon's draft position.

If he shows off an ability to create shots for himself, a jump shot that can be trusted, & measures taller than 6'7" at combine, he could fly up draft boards. I'm just not sure about any of those....

Either way, Brandon brings enough to the table to secure a 1st Rd pick for some team.The negs on Clarke are a disinformation campaign. He'll be top 20, no doubt.

Markburn1
04-12-2019, 12:05 PM
Is ZN the new Bol Kong? More attribution than evidence. Always good to see a KB reference.

Can we at least see him break 40% in a season before we call him Dan Dickau????

Bankhead was a dude.

gueastcoast
04-12-2019, 12:47 PM
Doug (Spradley) lived across the hall from me in Desmet. I used to dunk on him constantly in Nerf hoops for what it's worth, his program-leading 3 pt. percentage notwithstanding :)

Seriously, I'd no idea at the time his %s were that high. Wow!

jazzdelmar
04-12-2019, 02:46 PM
Can we at least see him break 40% in a season before we call him Dan Dickau????

Bankhead was a dude.

Not bloody likely, Burnie. KB is my all time #1 fave....we beat TT w/KB out there.

Reborn
04-12-2019, 05:46 PM
Is ZN the new Bol Kong? More attribution than evidence. Always good to see a KB reference.

I don't think so, Jazz. Bol Kong was a one-year bomber. He came and then fled like a thief in the night.
On the other hand, Zach Norvell is a keeper. People forget that he comes from Chicago, the city that creates tough basketball players. I also think many forget how much good Zach has already done for the program, and how many really awesome memories he's already left here in ZagNation. Zach will be back, and IMO he's going to have one great year, and will be a leader on the team. He's going to have more freedom than ever, and his shooting will thus improve. Zach Norvell is a keeper. I love him. Let's not forget what he did against Florida St and Duke. The Florida St was one of my favorites this year, next to the Duke game of course. I feel Zach has taken unfair criticism by some posters.

Just my take.

Go Zags!!!

zagbeliever
04-12-2019, 06:18 PM
I don't think so, Jazz. Bol Kong was a one-year bomber. He came and then fled like a thief in the night.
On the other hand, Zach Norvell is a keeper. People forget that he comes from Chicago, the city that creates tough basketball players. I also think many forget how much good Zach has already done for the program, and how many really awesome memories he's already left here in ZagNation. Zach will be back, and IMO he's going to have one great year, and will be a leader on the team. He's going to have more freedom than ever, and his shooting will thus improve. Zach Norvell is a keeper. I love him. Let's not forget what he did against Florida St and Duke. The Florida St was one of my favorites this year, next to the Duke game of course. I feel Zach has taken unfair criticism by some posters.

Just my take.

Go Zags!!!

I met Zach in Vegas. Nicest kids ever.

Alum08
04-13-2019, 04:59 AM
He came and then fled like a thief in the night.


Nice one.

DixieZag
04-13-2019, 05:31 AM
Doug (Spradley) lived across the hall from me in Desmet. I used to dunk on him constantly in Nerf hoops for what it's worth, his program-leading 3 pt. percentage notwithstanding :)

Seriously, I'd no idea at the time his %s were that high. Wow!

I hadn't even realized that the 3 pt shot had been put in when he was there. For some reason, my recollection was that Jarrod Davis ushered in the first season with a 3pt shot in the rules. But, I'm wrong.

My memory must be "fogged" for some reason, of those games in the late 80s, the "down years" prior to the early 90s when everything seemed to ascend. Of course, it couldn't help but ascend bc as I recall in 89, while Dudley, Brown, Goff, and those guys redshirted, IIRC they won like 8 games, and then it really turned around to by 92 IIRC they'd won 20.

That list was cool and eye-opening.

But, LadyZag, Zach Norvelle may be one of our best "2" guards ever, in terms of overall game and skills, when one is still 13 places below Gary Bell Jr. on the all time percentage list, and sits at number 32 in all time 3 pt percentage, that is a bit lacking.

I suppose we should acknowledge that the line has moved out a few feet over the years.

Anyone else remember (this is offseason talk) when they introduced the 3pt shot, different conferences had different distances, and IIRC it was the ACC that had it inside the very top of the key, preposterously close? Maybe I have it wrong, but one of the majors did.

I like Miller, the legendary Oregon State coach's response to the 3 pt shot: "If they're giving away 3 points for a shot, it should be for getting a layup out of your halfcourt set. "

Zagsker
04-14-2019, 10:40 AM
Let's just say Rui, BC and Tillie all stay (extremely slim, I understand)...what does play distribution look like next year? Who, if anyone, RS? I would assume MA and OB

willandi
04-14-2019, 01:11 PM
Let's just say Rui, BC and Tillie all stay (extremely slim, I understand)...what does play distribution look like next year? Who, if anyone, RS? I would assume MA and OB

Which newcomer is able to pay for their first year w/o a scholarship? That, to me, would be a huge deciding factor. Next would be, if they can afford to pay (and by that I mean their families), which one would be willing to pay that much?

If they were not on the roster as a scholarship player, would they redshirt and walk-on or would choose to they be officially on the team, and if they weren't officially on the team, would they be allowed by the NCAA to participate in the Olynyk Clinic?

Radbooks
04-14-2019, 01:24 PM
Scholarships always work out.

Zagdawg
05-26-2019, 08:15 AM
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Gonzaga's Brandon Clarke tells me that he will stay in the 2019 NBA Draft.

willandi
05-26-2019, 09:05 AM
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Gonzaga's Brandon Clarke tells me that he will stay in the 2019 NBA Draft.

While it would be nice to have him back, his stock will probably never be higher. There is a logjam at his position, especially if Tillie comes back.

Can anybody honestly say that they would turn down MILLIONS of dollars to get a $65,000 year toward a masters degree? If you say you would, I think you are being dishonest. Take the money and run.

DixieZag
05-26-2019, 09:08 AM
Which newcomer is able to pay for their first year w/o a scholarship? That, to me, would be a huge deciding factor. Next would be, if they can afford to pay (and by that I mean their families), which one would be willing to pay that much?

If they were not on the roster as a scholarship player, would they redshirt and walk-on or would choose to they be officially on the team, and if they weren't officially on the team, would they be allowed by the NCAA to participate in the Olynyk Clinic?

Don't we still have room for one other tx? GZ has promised me personally a fantastic PG tx, bc my needs are extremely important. Snark.

Anyone else so confident in our staff that we will not be THAT down next year even IF Tillie goes pro?

I just think they'd make it work somehow.

Rangerzag
05-26-2019, 10:54 AM
FWIW


https://i.imgur.com/tokDkpB.jpg

SLOZag
05-26-2019, 11:25 AM
Perhaps more current, FWIW (w/a thank you to ZagNative):




https://i.imgur.com/Q8WJuyz.jpg

willandi
05-26-2019, 02:59 PM
Don't we still have room for one other tx? GZ has promised me personally a fantastic PG tx, bc my needs are extremely important. Snark.

Anyone else so confident in our staff that we will not be THAT down next year even IF Tillie goes pro?

I just think they'd make it work somehow.

I am confident.

I think that w/o Tillie the Zags will have one of the very best Front courts in College hoops, 3-5. With Tils, the best.

I trust that Gilder and Racet will be able to handle the 1-2 spots but will be nice to have another. BZ has been consistent that there will be another at some point.

GonzagasaurusFlex
05-26-2019, 04:29 PM
I am confident.

I think that w/o Tillie the Zags will have one of the very best Front courts in College hoops, 3-5.
With Tils, the best.

I trust that Gilder and Racet will be able to handle the 1-2 spots but will be nice to have another. BZ has been consistent that there will be another at some point.

I don’t understand how you can think Zags’ front court without Tillie will be one of best in country. Returning a sophomore who played very limited minutes w glaring weaknesses defensively and then 3 freshmen, one of whom is 17 yo, yet to prove anything at the D-1 level. Lots of potential for sure but no way a top front court in the country.

willandi
05-26-2019, 05:52 PM
I don’t understand how you can think Zags’ front court without Tillie will be one of best in country. Returning a sophomore who played very limited minutes w glaring weaknesses defensively and then 3 freshmen, one of whom is 17 yo, yet to prove anything at the D-1 level. Lots of potential for sure but no way a top front court in the country.

Because I think Petrusev will have a break out year, I think Timme will be fantastic from the get go, I think Watson and Kispert will handle the 3 with Watson slipping into the 4 at times, and Martynas backing up the 3, and I think Zacharov will show solid minutes at the 5 and Ballo, while young and relatively untested, has been called Baby Shaq.

What other team in the country has that much potential at the 3-5 positions? They're almost like one-and-dones!

Zagsker
05-26-2019, 06:05 PM
I don’t understand how you can think Zags’ front court without Tillie will be one of best in country. Returning a sophomore who played very limited minutes w glaring weaknesses defensively and then 3 freshmen, one of whom is 17 yo, yet to prove anything at the D-1 level. Lots of potential for sure but no way a top front court in the country.

I get this...


Because I think Petrusev will have a break out year, I think Timme will be fantastic from the get go, I think Watson and Kispert will handle the 3 with Watson slipping into the 4 at times, and Martynas backing up the 3, and I think Zacharov will show solid minutes at the 5 and Ballo, while young and relatively untested, has been called Baby Shaq.

What other team in the country has that much potential at the 3-5 positions? They're almost like one-and-dones!

...this as well.

The fence I sit on is cedar.

jazzdelmar
05-26-2019, 07:07 PM
The Zags won’t have a top frontcourt even with Tillie.

Zagsker
05-26-2019, 07:20 PM
The Zags won’t have a top frontcourt even with Tillie.

I would contend that just a Tillie and Flip FC is solid..top 5? can't say...top 10? Probably

willandi
05-26-2019, 07:40 PM
The Zags won’t have a top frontcourt even with Tillie.

Your opinion. Mine is different.

What other team, by name (please be specific) have a better 3-5 than the potential of Gonzaga? Name 5 teams so we cover that top 5-10 reference. Please.

ZagsGoZags
05-26-2019, 09:30 PM
i don't get ballo as baby shaq.
ballo is mobile, can run and jump like men a foot shorter than him
i am sure shaq could jump a little like karno could , but I think ballo will end up with a much larger game outside the paint than O'Neal did, and I hope a great game inside the paint too.
ballo is more like an amped up rui but larger IMHO

sittingon50
05-26-2019, 11:03 PM
Shaq dunked everything. Karno didn't.

ZagsGoZags
05-27-2019, 03:56 AM
true one was better than the other, and neither could jump,
even if ballo dunks everything near the basket in the NBA, he will still have an outside game that Shaq did not have.
Still don't see Ballo as baby shaq

DixieZag
05-27-2019, 04:55 AM
The Zags won’t have a top frontcourt even with Tillie.

IF Tillie comes back, and IF his body doesn't let him down and he's able to go full bore all year, it would seem that Petrusev is solid enough that those two and which ever of the loaded newcomers really stands out, that's awfully close to Top 10.

Tillie could be a first team All American. There are zero four year kids with his talent in college. They all do what he would've done, gone to the NBA by year two.

And even when hurt he's going to absorb the system and what Few wants, and technique, so his BB IQ which was never an issue will be off the charts.

So, take one possible all American, put a second year strong 7 footer beside him, and the top frosh standing out, that's almost top 10 by definition.

I also think Petrusev's upside is way bigger than most consider. May not appear this year, but could just as easily.

We are going to likely take a step back, we lost 4 starters! But I am not convinced it will be a huge one.

MileHigh
05-27-2019, 05:31 AM
[ZagsGoZags;] and neither could jump,


Shaq was one of the best jumping 7 footers in the history of basketball. Coming out of college he had a 36 inch vertical at 300 pounds. At NBA combine he held the record for the highest max touch (reach +standing vert) at 12-5. Dwight Howard broke that record by an inch. Later in Shaqs career when he was about 360 and knees were shot he couldnt jump very well, but in his prime he was an athletic freak.

Karno not even on the same planet as Shaq when it comes to explosiveness

jazzdelmar
05-27-2019, 05:59 AM
IF Tillie comes back, and IF his body doesn't let him down and he's able to go full bore all year, it would seem that Petrusev is solid enough that those two and which ever of the loaded newcomers really stands out, that's awfully close to Top 10.

Tillie could be a first team All American. There are zero four year kids with his talent in college. They all do what he would've done, gone to the NBA by year two.

And even when hurt he's going to absorb the system and what Few wants, and technique, so his BB IQ which was never an issue will be off the charts.

So, take one possible all American, put a second year strong 7 footer beside him, and the top frosh standing out, that's almost top 10 by definition.

I also think Petrusev's upside is way bigger than most consider. May not appear this year, but could just as easily.

We are going to likely take a step back, we lost 4 starters! But I am not convinced it will be a huge one.


More "Ifs" than Kipling could ever imagine. Even if some of them are remotely possible by next year, I still do not see top 10 frontcourt, a la Rui/Tils/Clarke much less Karno/Zbo/JW/Tils/Rui...c'mon. They'll be good, tho. Now the bottom half backcourt, that's concerning.

DixieZag
05-27-2019, 06:49 AM
More "Ifs" than Kipling could ever imagine. Even if some of them are remotely possible by next year, I still do not see top 10 frontcourt, a la Rui/Tils/Clarke much less Karno/Zbo/JW/Tils/Rui...c'mon. They'll be good, tho. Now the bottom half backcourt, that's concerning.

Funny. Well done.

I kinda think Rui, Clark, Tills was not ala top 10 but ala top 2 and perhaps unquestionably one.

So, again, a step back is sort of compelled by nature.

And yes, lots of ifs. To be sure.

Still, some reason for "hope" - hope is important.

GuZag2012
05-27-2019, 06:50 AM
Agreed, young Shaq was a freak athlete. Amazing combination of size, strength, explosion and speed.


[ZagsGoZags;] and neither could jump,


Shaq was one of the best jumping 7 footers in the history of basketball. Coming out of college he had a 36 inch vertical at 300 pounds. At NBA combine he held the record for the highest max touch (reach +standing vert) at 12-5. Dwight Howard broke that record by an inch. Later in Shaqs career when he was about 360 and knees were shot he couldnt jump very well, but in his prime he was an athletic freak.

Karno not even on the same planet as Shaq when it comes to explosiveness




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

willandi
05-27-2019, 07:21 AM
Your opinion. Mine is different.

What other team, by name (please be specific) have a better 3-5 than the potential of Gonzaga? Name 5 teams so we cover that top 5-10 reference. Please.


More "Ifs" than Kipling could ever imagine. Even if some of them are remotely possible by next year, I still do not see top 10 frontcourt, a la Rui/Tils/Clarke much less Karno/Zbo/JW/Tils/Rui...c'mon. They'll be good, tho. Now the bottom half backcourt, that's concerning.

You have ignored my request. Top ten simply means that there are not 10 better front courts in the NCAA next year. I am including the 3 in that. It is not top ten front courts in history, just next year.

Name the top ten front courts that are better than Gonzaga, in the NCAA, next year. I just don't know of 10 better ones.

Even the traditional blue bloods have had huge turnover.

Bogozags
05-27-2019, 08:24 AM
On paper, we have a top ten front court BUT that and $3.00 will buy you a cup of coffee at your local Denny’s...

Duke had the #1 recruiting class AND the best player we’ve seen in decades and they had difficulty making the EE...should have been the 1st team to lose two games in the Dance...

Hey, it’s nice to have the players coming in AND hope they develop and adjust to D1 basketball QUICKLY...I’m skeptical on those five front court players adjusting...fingers crossed

willandi
05-27-2019, 08:28 AM
On paper, we have a top ten front court BUT that and $3.00 will buy you a cup of coffee at your local Denny’s...

Duke had the #1 recruiting class AND the best player we’ve seen in decades and they had difficulty making the EE...should have been the 1st team to lose two games in the Dance...

Hey, it’s nice to have the players coming in AND hope they develop and adjust to D1 basketball QUICKLY...I’m skeptical on those five front court players adjusting...fingers crossed

True about Duke, but losing in the NCAA's isn't a determination of how good their front court was. Some of it is bad luck, some of it was poor play at any given moment and some was other teams getting hot.

The NBA draft sure seems to think highly of them.

DixieZag
05-27-2019, 09:59 AM
On paper, we have a top ten front court BUT that and $3.00 will buy you a cup of coffee at your local Denny’s...

Duke had the #1 recruiting class AND the best player we’ve seen in decades and they had difficulty making the EE...should have been the 1st team to lose two games in the Dance...

Hey, it’s nice to have the players coming in AND hope they develop and adjust to D1 basketball QUICKLY...I’m skeptical on those five front court players adjusting...fingers crossed

A team beat Duke in the S16, they just had no answer for the refs on Duke's side. That was a travesty.

Yes, it is strange how in college an extremely strong team can get their wires crossed for one game, and that is it bc they so often run up on a weaker team playing out of its mind.

GonzaGAW
05-27-2019, 10:07 AM
- I stand with willandi on this one.

- pertusev, kispert, watson, timme, arlauskas, zakharov, ballo, postions 3-5, nobody will pick up his challenge to name and list the players of 10 teams that are better or with as much potential as our squad next year. I say potential because every team lost something and is retooling with transfers and freshmen. I think he has the naysayers checkmated on this one.

- I think as the zags talents has soared to new heights the past 3 years, so have the expectations and even worries of many fans.
- how else do you explain some who actually doubt we will make the ncaa tourney? or explain the worries of a great champion of the zags, Dixie? or even the reliable pessimism of jazz who says with the above players plus Tillie, we do not have a top frontcourt. I mean really? if that is the case most years when we have been winning games in the tourney we must have been starting a lot of crap. the expectations are so high that even if we (bogo) acknowledge a top frontcourt, it comes with a caveat of being no guarantee of an elite eight run. are we fans turning into blue blood fans? that is we demand an elite eight, f.f. potential team each year?

- if nobody is going to take willandi's challenge to name 10 schools with a better frontcourt (and I get it, that's a lot of work to run thru the rosters of 60 power conference schools). then keep it closer to home and our knowledge base.......name as many Gonzaga squads that you think were better than what we are going to have next year. I believe there are a few, but each of them were clearly 10 ten caliber frontcourts. I suggest the exercise, not to say this new squad is the best, but rather it is going to stack up against many of our other frontcourts that were acknowledged as some of the best in the country at the time.

- and lets keep it real, we have a fairly good idea of what we are getting with this new crew. we have seen the top 100 rating numbers, we see the 4 stars, we have seen many play in person. we have inside reports via Caldwell, that staff are high on arlauskas, and recall how we collectively nearly had a fainting spell when we learned ballo had committed.

- anyway, grading subjectivity and adjectives aside, I'm very well pleased, excited about our team next year, and have no worries that they will not disappoint us, or at least the vast majority of zag fans.

bballbeachbum
05-27-2019, 10:38 AM
Agreed, young Shaq was a freak athlete. Amazing combination of size, strength, explosion and speed.

to Mile High's point and yours, check out Exhibit A at the 40 second mark of this video. it's one letter among the exhibit alphabet the video provides (the 2:02 mark, etc.)

Karno more like Duncan to me in his O execution. Now please, I'm not saying Shem is Tim Duncan. On D, Eaton comes to mind

re. the debate on next year's front line, fun and great points shared all sides


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01EIJq0LxAY

bartruff1
05-27-2019, 10:41 AM
I think it would be easy to name ten potentially better frontcourts beginning with the usual blue bloods...Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, Michigan State, Virginia.....throw in Texas Tech, Auburn, Florida State, …..plenty of them....

Gonzaga MIGHT have one of the 5 best in the West along with Arizona, Oregon, Washington, probably New Mexico State, USC...… but who wants to spend this beautiful day arguing about nothing of consequence on the internet..... who cares, I don't... :p


They will be the best frontcourt we have this season and that is a demonstrable fact ..

ETA to Add "State" to New Mexico

jazzdelmar
05-27-2019, 10:55 AM
Smart man. Add UNC, the Ville, Villanova, Memphis, et al. Top 5 in the West sounds about right.



I think it would be easy to name ten potentially better frontcourts beginning with the usual blue bloods...Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, Michigan State, Virginia.....throw in Texas Tech, Auburn, Florida State, …..plenty of them....

Gonzaga MIGHT have one of the 5 best in the West along with Arizona, Oregon, Washington, probably New Mexico, USC...… but who wants to spend this beautiful day arguing about nothing of consequence on the internet..... who cares, I don't... :p

They will be the best frontcourt we have this year and that is a demonstrable fact ..

jazzdelmar
05-27-2019, 10:59 AM
Your top 5 or 10 front court statement is outlandish, IMO. But you have a right to make it. It’s subjective. Then you ask me to provide empirical evidence to support my view that it’s outlandish. Bart’s point above is as good as it gets.



You have ignored my request. Top ten simply means that there are not 10 better front courts in the NCAA next year. I am including the 3 in that. It is not top ten front courts in history, just next year.

Name the top ten front courts that are better than Gonzaga, in the NCAA, next year. I just don't know of 10 better ones.

Even the traditional blue bloods have had huge turnover.

willandi
05-27-2019, 11:11 AM
Your top 5 or 10 front court statement is outlandish, IMO. But you have a right to make it. It’s subjective. Then you ask me to provide empirical evidence to support my view that it’s outlandish. Bart’s point above is as good as it gets.

They are opinions. I get that, but to just make YOUR outlandish statements and not even try to support it, that's a cop out.

Will the traditional blue bloods be better? Maybe, but they have all lost a lot, as has Gonzaga, so to just name those names as being better, because they are THE blue bloods is really weak sauce.

willandi
05-27-2019, 11:41 AM
https://247sports.com/Season/2019-Basketball/CompositeTeamRankings/

Of players coming in, the Zags have more at the 3-5 spots than any of the other top teams. They DON"T have any 5 stars, but lots of 4 stars.

TexasZagFan
05-27-2019, 12:39 PM
https://247sports.com/Season/2019-Basketball/CompositeTeamRankings/

Of players coming in, the Zags have more at the 3-5 spots than any of the other top teams. They DON"T have any 5 stars, but lots of 4 stars.

I noticed we're currently #1 for 2020.

tinfoilzag
05-27-2019, 12:39 PM
https://247sports.com/Season/2019-Basketball/CompositeTeamRankings/

Of players coming in, the Zags have more at the 3-5 spots than any of the other top teams. They DON"T have any 5 stars, but lots of 4 stars.

Mildly interesting data points from the site -

No other WCC team with a 4-star recruit. USC is the only California team that is recruiting well (similar to Gonzaga) with 2 x 5-stars and 2 x 4-stars. Not including USC, all other California-based schools have 2 x 4-star recruits combined (Pac 12 and WCC) with Stanford and UCLA having 1 x 4-star recruit respectively.

I initially thought that the CA-based schools were to blame for letting all the local talent go but it looks like there aren't that many 4-star+ players coming from CA. According to ESPN top 100 for 2019, only 9 are from CA (WA has 4 for comparison). * Small sample size, inconsistent metric, etc..

This snapshot reinforces what most people say already: basketball is not really a CA strength as it compares to population. With so many schools in CA, they end up cannibalizing each other from the small pool. I don't see the PAC 12 or WCC improving as conferences anytime in the near future unless they take on the GU model using pipelines from far away locations.

It all shows how incredible the GU profile is.

Zagsker
05-27-2019, 01:05 PM
I noticed we're currently #1 for 2020.

What's the connection with JS and Florida? Both FSU and Gators with offers...could just be coincidental, just thought odd

jazzdelmar
05-27-2019, 01:28 PM
What's the connection with JS and Florida? Both FSU and Gators with offers...could just be coincidental, just thought odd

Suggs is one”cool’” dude.

maynard g krebs
05-27-2019, 09:07 PM
Gonzaga MIGHT have one of the 5 best in the West along with Arizona, Oregon, Washington, probably New Mexico, USC...… .


Oregon has only Okoro returning on the front line. White, King, Norris, Wooten all gone. A couple 4 star fr coming in. They'll be lucky to end up w/ one of the top 5 front courts in the Pac alone. New Mexico? Really?

bartruff1
05-27-2019, 09:53 PM
New Mexico State...

TexasZagFan
05-28-2019, 07:13 AM
New Mexico State...

Really good catch, bart. They'll have 8 seniors on their roster next year, from a team that lost to Auburn by 1.

For those who have never been to Las Cruces, it has a lot to offer potential recruits. Like Spokane, the Aggies are the only game in town, and Las Crucens love their Aggies. The PanAm Center holds nearly 12,500, and their crowds are loud. The population has nearly doubled since I lived in El Paso, to about 100,000.

Las Cruces is about an hour north of El Paso, and only charter aircraft fly to and from Las Cruces Intl Airport. IOW, it is far more isolated than Spokane. The isolation is great for gym rats, but getting 4 star players to go there can be a real challenge.

I've been to games at NMSU, albeit a couple of decades ago. It's where my future bride and I attended our first game together, an experience she'd like to forget...lol.

Getting a high quality OOC opponent like St. Mary's is about the best they're going to get. You'll never see a power conference send a team there, unless they got or 2 for 1...and even then, it's doubtful.

For perspective, it took Don Haskins (and we know his place in college hoops history) to give a 2 for 1 to bring Georgetown to UTEP. It was "no mas" after that, as UTEP took two out of three from the Hoyas.

willandi
05-28-2019, 08:10 AM
New Mexico State...


Really good catch, bart. They'll have 8 seniors on their roster next year, from a team that lost to Auburn by 1.

For those who have never been to Las Cruces, it has a lot to offer potential recruits. Like Spokane, the Aggies are the only game in town, and Las Crucens love their Aggies. The PanAm Center holds nearly 12,500, and their crowds are loud. The population has nearly doubled since I lived in El Paso, to about 100,000.

Las Cruces is about an hour north of El Paso, and only charter aircraft fly to and from Las Cruces Intl Airport. IOW, it is far more isolated than Spokane. The isolation is great for gym rats, but getting 4 star players to go there can be a real challenge.

I've been to games at NMSU, albeit a couple of decades ago. It's where my future bride and I attended our first game together, an experience she'd like to forget...lol.

Getting a high quality OOC opponent like St. Mary's is about the best they're going to get. You'll never see a power conference send a team there, unless they got or 2 for 1...and even then, it's doubtful.

For perspective, it took Don Haskins (and we know his place in college hoops history) to give a 2 for 1 to bring Georgetown to UTEP. It was "no mas" after that, as UTEP took two out of three from the Hoyas.

They could be, but best in the WAC doesn't compare to the WCC...still, I'll give you one.

Next?

WallaWallaZag
05-28-2019, 04:17 PM
You have ignored my request. Top ten simply means that there are not 10 better front courts in the NCAA next year. I am including the 3 in that. It is not top ten front courts in history, just next year.

Name the top ten front courts that are better than Gonzaga, in the NCAA, next year. I just don't know of 10 better ones.

Even the traditional blue bloods have had huge turnover.

why would you include the 3 in a discussion about front courts??? no one does...just doesn't make any sense other than the fact that the zags have a surplus of players so it better fits your narrative...

jazzdelmar
05-28-2019, 04:26 PM
why would you include the 3 in a discussion about front courts??? no one does...just doesn't make any sense other than the fact that the zags have a surplus of players so it better fits your narrative...

Don’t stop him. He’s on a roll.

TexasZagFan
05-28-2019, 04:51 PM
As talented as our incoming class is, they can't yet be compared to that 2016-2017 front line of Karno, J3, and Zach Collins.

Unrelated, but it says a lot about Rui that he was named "Small Forward of the Year", while playing the vast majority of his minutes at the 4.

willandi
05-28-2019, 05:12 PM
why would you include the 3 in a discussion about front courts??? no one does...just doesn't make any sense other than the fact that the zags have a surplus of players so it better fits your narrative...

They aren't back court and Watson can play the 4 as can Kispert.

Where would YOU include them with Watson and Kispert sometimes playing the 4?

Jazz likes it because he won't actually address the question, so don't take that as a positive.

WallaWallaZag
05-29-2019, 09:04 AM
They aren't back court and Watson can play the 4 as can Kispert.

Where would YOU include them with Watson and Kispert sometimes playing the 4?

Jazz likes it because he won't actually address the question, so don't take that as a positive.

the average 3 in college is under 6'4 (and no, i don't have a link)...obviously that number likely goes up in the power conferences but still, the sf is much more of a backcourt position than a frontcourt position. kispert plays much more like a guard than a forward and i definitely wouldn't make the argument that kispert can play the 4....it certainly doesn't help your stance. that's like saying norvell can play the point...sure but, really? not in any normal situation, only out of necessity.

willandi
05-29-2019, 11:41 AM
the average 3 in college is under 6'4 (and no, i don't have a link)...obviously that number likely goes up in the power conferences but still, the sf is much more of a backcourt position than a frontcourt position. kispert plays much more like a guard than a forward and i definitely wouldn't make the argument that kispert can play the 4....it certainly doesn't help your stance. that's like saying norvell can play the point...sure but, really? not in any normal situation, only out of necessity.

So you want them to be backcourt and I see them as front court. If it doesn't help MY case, it sure doesn't help yours.

If the 3 spot in college is under 6'4" , and ours are 6'6" or taller, that also doesn't make your case., but if you want, leave Kispert and Martynas out.

Who has a better front court. New Mexico State has been named, and because they have a lot of returning talent I agreed. That talent wasn't good enough for WCC teams, especially the Zags, but OK.

Name some more, please.

Hoopaholic
05-29-2019, 01:07 PM
ESPN draft analysis has Brandon as the THIRD best prospect in the draft........wow and a 27% chance of being an all star my how his stock has risen

Rui not in top 30---has him slated at 44

Norvell not on the draft board

Tille was ranked 23rd in this blog

http://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/26826780/nba-draft-projections-most-likely-all-stars-player-comps

Reborn
05-29-2019, 03:28 PM
I really did believe that Zach Norvell would be back playing in a Zag uniform. I felt he wasn't ready for the NBA. I'll admit that I was disappointed that he decided to leave a very good situation at Gonzaga for the NBA, or as it may turn out, for Europe.

On the other hand, it sure is nice to see that Tillie is coming back. It's a really great decision, and it shows his intelligence. I like the how a blogger stated something like a Gonzaga education and degree is gold.

jazzdelmar
05-29-2019, 03:48 PM
Well put, Bornie. Norvell marching to the sound of his own drummer.


I really did believe that Zach Norvell would be back playing in a Zag uniform. I felt he wasn't ready for the NBA. I'll admit that I was disappointed that he decided to leave a very good situation at Gonzaga for the NBA, or as it may turn out, for Europe.

On the other hand, it sure is nice to see that Tillie is coming back. It's a really great decision, and it shows his intelligence. I like the how a blogger stated something like a Gonzaga education and degree is gold.

soccerdud
05-29-2019, 06:57 PM
So you want them to be backcourt and I see them as front court. If it doesn't help MY case, it sure doesn't help yours.

If the 3 spot in college is under 6'4" , and ours are 6'6" or taller, that also doesn't make your case., but if you want, leave Kispert and Martynas out.

pretty clearly the 3 should be considered part of the backcourt. few basically always plays a 3 ballhandler/2 big setup (which is why elias and wiltjer at the 3 never stuck). look at the players who actually have played the 3 for the zags since 2010: bouldin, gray, hart, bell, dranginis, wesley, mathews, norvell... kispert and arlauskas are a little taller, but they are clearly in that mold, and few's requirements and usage of his 3rd ballhandler is definitely more like how he uses his guards than his F/Cs. and it's not remotely close.

but you are right that kispert could play the 4 in a pinch (much like barham did).

eta: i don't care about the broader argument you two were having.

bartruff1
05-29-2019, 07:16 PM
Well put, Bornie. Norvell marching to the sound of his own drummer.

And so is Tillie....

Goshzagit
05-30-2019, 07:03 AM
The days of a Gonzaga bball Senior are going to be few and far between.

Guys like Kispert, probably/maybe Ravet will likely be lone seniors, yet most of our players/prospects/recruits who log playing time (even bench guys) will be long gone by their Senior year.

Feels odd to consider but it's our new reality.

willandi
05-30-2019, 07:21 AM
pretty clearly the 3 should be considered part of the backcourt. few basically always plays a 3 ballhandler/2 big setup (which is why elias and wiltjer at the 3 never stuck). look at the players who actually have played the 3 for the zags since 2010: bouldin, gray, hart, bell, dranginis, wesley, mathews, norvell... kispert and arlauskas are a little taller, but they are clearly in that mold, and few's requirements and usage of his 3rd ballhandler is definitely more like how he uses his guards than his F/Cs. and it's not remotely close.

but you are right that kispert could play the 4 in a pinch (much like barham did).

eta: i don't care about the broader argument you two were having.

I also see Watson playing some at the three.

I agree though with what you are saying, Few generally uses a 3 guard type line-up, but Kispert was never a primary ball handler last year, he was a small forward leaning towards PF and pretty much the same with JJ.

I don't really feel like I was having an argument. I stated that I think that the Zags frontcourt will be one of the best in college hoops this coming year, and when they disagreed with me, I asked which teams would be better.

Only one possibility was offered, New Mexico St, from the WAC, and only because they are returning a large number of their 4-5 players.

White lightning
05-30-2019, 07:45 AM
The days of a Gonzaga bball Senior are going to be few and far between.

Guys like Kispert, probably/maybe Ravet will likely be lone seniors, yet most of our players/prospects/recruits who log playing time (even bench guys) will be long gone by their Senior year.

Feels odd to consider but it's our new reality.I think to be a successful program they will need a mix. Most FF/ NC teams seem to have a couple one and dones mixed with 2 or 3 veterans. Villanova and Kansas seem to hang onto players who may be bottom NBA talent that don't bolt at the first chance. Especially at the guard position. Hopefully Gonzaga can continue with a mix of veterans with a few top 50 players each season.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

WallaWallaZag
05-30-2019, 08:55 AM
So you want them to be backcourt and I see them as front court. If it doesn't help MY case, it sure doesn't help yours.

If the 3 spot in college is under 6'4" , and ours are 6'6" or taller, that also doesn't make your case., but if you want, leave Kispert and Martynas out.

Who has a better front court. New Mexico State has been named, and because they have a lot of returning talent I agreed. That talent wasn't good enough for WCC teams, especially the Zags, but OK.

Name some more, please.

i think you've confused me with someone else with your passion regarding your argument...i've never refuted your stance as i'm in the wait and see camp regarding where the zags stack up (though now that tillie looks like he's back, i have no problem with top 10 and possibly top 5 - if he stays healthy). my point was that no one here was really including the 3 in the discussion about frontcourts, especially if you are focusing on the zag collection of bigs...so it's really not a you or me thing. if rui was playing the 3, i would have no problem with your argument. kispert? not so much.

sonuvazag
05-30-2019, 09:01 AM
you're obviously confused with your passion regarding your argument...i've never refuted your stance as i'm in the wait and see camp regarding where the zags stack up (though now that tillie looks like he's back, i have no problem with top 10). my point was that no one includes the 3 in any discussion about frontcourts and it's not really a you or me thing...it's basically industry standard.

I don't think it's as cut and dry as you suggest.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1283511-power-ranking-the-top-15-starting-frontcourts-in-the-nba#slide0

https://bustingbrackets.com/2018/08/26/ncaa-basketball-top-25-frontcourts-for-2018-19/2/