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View Full Version : Norvell in Gonzaga's three losses this season



CDC84
03-13-2019, 10:01 AM
There really does seem to be a correlation between Gonzaga's performance in important games and Norvell's production. He went 1/11 from the field last night, and 0/6 from three. Some of his shots were highly questionable, which has been very unlike him of late. All this after I said he was my favorite Zag on the current roster!

In GU's 3 losses to Tenn, UNC and SMC, Snacks was a combined 13/41 (31.7%) from the floor and 5/23 from three (21.7%). Speaks for itself. Kispert is basically a stand up three point shooter who Few must remove whenever he gets picked on defensively.

As others have said, Josh was rubbing his repaired right shoulder all game last night.

I am very concerned that GU could be gone the first bad game that Norvell has. Even more so if Few doesn't figure out a way to get Hachimura more than 6 shots in a game.

GrizZAG
03-13-2019, 10:11 AM
Agree many of his and Perkins shot selections were questionable. 25 feet+ ?? I mentioned before that Zach's uncle told me he has always been a ice cold or red hot shooter since he was a kid. Some psychological block that could be addressed?

zagdontzig
03-13-2019, 10:14 AM
Both Josh and Zach regularly take deep shots early in the clock and we don't say anything because they can both make them. We're only talking about it now because they wen cold. I don't have a problem with their shot selection. I think it's on Few to devise a back-up when they go cold.

Goshzagit
03-13-2019, 10:16 AM
Norvell plays off Josh. It starts and ends with Perkins, imho. Josh feeds Norvell, and when Josh is limited, it really affects Zach too.

Perkins is clearly hurting. You don't rub a body part numerous times and hold it against your body on defense if you're not hurt. Something is up with him, and could be something we talk about for years to come. Time will tell.

Norvell goes back to last season, in our loss vs Florida St in S16: 4/16 FG, 1/9 3pt, 4 TO's, 0 assists.

Zach also had 2 assists combined in our 3 losses. Also plays a big role.

GonzagasaurusFlex
03-13-2019, 11:12 AM
I’m just relieved Snacks has now gotten his three bad games for the season out of the way...as has the team, hopefully.

JPtheBeasta
03-13-2019, 11:27 AM
My fear has been that a team would pack it in to defend Rui/Clarke and dare Perkins to be a scorer. Either the SG and SF have to become a bigger part of the offense, or Perkins has to make shots, in that scenario. If Norvell or Perkins hit 2-3 more shots earlier in the game I think the whole team outlook changes and the Zags pull away from SMC at the end.

To be fair, I don’t think the Zags tried to get the ball to Rui or Clarke enough. I think SMC only had 4 fouls very deep into the 2nd half (just going off my memory). This is a team that didn’t match the physicality of SMC.

The typical recipe for a Zag upset is poor shooting, the other team hitting multiple tough shots (exhibit A: Crandall’s almost-steal followed by a desperation 3-pointer with the shot clock winding down), and a few demoralizing questionable foul calls. This game had all of that and reminded me of the SFU Rex Walters games spanning a few years not too long ago.

CB4
03-13-2019, 11:33 AM
I am a huge Norvell fan, generally. However, 5-10 years ago Few had zero patience for players like Norvell. I'm talking about players that try to make the big plays, miss a bunch of shots, but often can be counted on to win on Hail Mary plays or make risky shots at crucial times. Few now lets these guys play through bad minutes and make bad some bad shots with the expectation that they are "gamers" who will turn it around when needed most. He's been right on many occasions.

Last night (and others) have been different. I think last night Few and staff realized that in games where Norvell is playing so poorly, at some point they're just gambling and praying that he turns it around. In the meantime, the Zags have turnovers and missed shots on bad possessions as a result.

Going forward, I think that if Norvell is having a game like that, he'll get the benefit of the doubt throughout the game like he has all season, but Few will be quicker to pull the plug and replace him with Kispert, Jones, or a forward combination with Tillie on the floor. When was Snacks pulled from the game last night? At the 8 or 10 minute mark? Or was he in later too?

Goshzagit
03-13-2019, 11:53 AM
As Vitale suggested (can't believe I'm saying that), they should have sat Norvell after missing his 9th shot in a row. Even just for 30 seconds. Just a reset button.

Zach was clearly frustrated with Krebs last night, and a couple early calls which went against him.

For instance, the Ford call on that fast break absolutely drained our momentum. SMC packed it in on every fast break, and the refs didn't call squat. Fortunately, the refs will call that a foul in the Tournament.

hooter73
03-13-2019, 11:56 AM
we had no third guard be it a 2 or a 3 that could step up and step in to bridge their production. Thats all Ive got.

thespywhozaggedme
03-13-2019, 12:37 PM
we had no third guard be it a 2 or a 3 that could step up and step in to bridge their production. Thats all Ive got.

I literally just thought about this same thing about a half an hour ago. We do not have a back up shooting guard. None whatsoever.

bartruff1
03-13-2019, 01:10 PM
I assume he played in 30 games that they won...

MDABE80
03-13-2019, 01:24 PM
My fear has been that a team would pack it in to defend Rui/Clarke and dare Perkins to be a scorer. Either the SG and SF have to become a bigger part of the offense, or Perkins has to make shots, in that scenario. If Norvell or Perkins hit 2-3 more shots earlier in the game I think the whole team outlook changes and the Zags pull away from SMC at the end.

To be fair, I donít think the Zags tried to get the ball to Rui or Clarke enough. I think SMC only had 4 fouls very deep into the 2nd half (just going off my memory). This is a team that didnít match the physicality of SMC.

The typical recipe for a Zag upset is poor shooting, the other team hitting multiple tough shots (exhibit A: Crandallís almost-steal followed by a desperation 3-pointer with the shot clock winding down), and a few demoralizing questionable foul calls. This game had all of that and reminded me of the SFU Rex Walters games spanning a few years not too long ago.

Exactly what happened JP. Nice and concise. Holding the to 60pts was very very good for such a high powered offense. Our offense did not overcome. I think offensive failure was due to two things. 1)Bennett figure out a way to shut down the transition game and 2)we just shot badly. Awful when we needed points.

Nobody played well.and it was just an horrible off night for this team. Plus they didn't look like they played hard. Maybe they just phoned it in till they couldn't. One thing not mentioned here is the layoff of a full week. Seems like the guys have to get a game or two before they return to form. Sluggish play last night might be an outcome of a layoff....

Reborn
03-13-2019, 01:45 PM
I just watched the game again. Always a good thing for me to do. The Zags scored 4 points in the last eight minutes (two foul shots and a layup by Clarke). St Mary's scored 18. That's an 18-4 run. In the last six minutes St Mary's outscored us 10-2 (2 foul shots by Clarke). Ford had ten points in those last 8 minutes. In the last eight minutes Clarke had two shots and Rui none. Norvell had 3 (all three pointers). Perkins had four and Kispert one (a 3 pointer in the last 30 seconds of the game. Gonzaga was only down by one point with eight minutes to go as we went on a mini run. Tillie hit a nice three to get us within a point. Few pulls him soon afterwards. Norvell shot two back to back three's, as he was trying to get the lead. It never worked. Those two misses seemed to take all the air out of the gym. And as I said St Mary's went on an 18 to 4 run to close the game. Once again, Rui never scored and I think had one chance to score as he drove to the hoop and turned the ball over.

One of the announcers said that he had talked to Few after the halftime. Few told the team that they needed to get the ball inside to the post players. The guards failed to do that and it cost them the game. In hind-sight I think Tillie should have played more. At least he seemed to be able to score, and his defense on Hunter was better than Clarke's, imo. And finally, accept for Tillie (who scored five points) our bench was very ineffective. IMO both Crandall and Jones did nothing to help this team. Neither of them scored a single point, and their defense was average at best. And one more thing, Perkins' defense was really horrible. All night long.

That's about it. Everything else has been said by others. Looking forward to seeing the Zags we all have come to know and love.

Go Zags!!!

Malastein
03-13-2019, 01:51 PM
Is Geno off the hook for criticism too? He was playing well offensively for a few games, but the guy isn’t consistent...

FlyZag
03-13-2019, 01:52 PM
I have ZERO problem with the guards. They were taking what the defense was giving. They just simply missed shots. It happens.

What I'm frustrated with is the fact that I don't remember us spreading the floor with our bigs like normal. Via high-low passing, or Tillie on the wing to open up the defense for Clarke/Rui. The fact that Tillie played as little as he did is a concern. the only explanation my brain can think of is he was still sore/injured and needed rest after Monday playing so much.

Zagceo
03-13-2019, 02:03 PM
sorry but Perk shooting three during 1 on 4 break with bum shoulder not wise choice.

Snax firing back to back threes when having off night not wise choice. This was Pride getting in the way according too Few.

definition of insanity at work

Clarke 6-8 Rui 3-6 needed to go down fighting with our bigs instead of hoping our guards would catch fire.

zagdontzig
03-13-2019, 02:29 PM
sorry but Perk shooting three during 1 on 4 break with bum shoulder not wise choice.

Snax firing back to back threes when having off night not wise choice. This was Pride getting in the way according too Few.

definition of insanity at work

Clarke 6-8 Rui 3-6 needed to go down fighting with our bigs instead of hoping our guards would catch fire.

I totally disagree. Shooters regress to the mean, eventually. You don't know when that is, but down 9, with limited time, and the opposing team burning clock, if Zach has an open look, he should shoot. If we get the board and he has another open look, he should shoot again.

He made good basketball decisions, but had a bad night.

Zagceo
03-13-2019, 02:31 PM
I totally disagree. Shooters regress to the mean, eventually. You don't know when that is, but down 9, with limited time, and the opposing team burning clock, if Zach has an open look, he should shoot. If we get the board and he has another open look, he should shoot again.

He made good basketball decisions, but had a bad night.


Frantic in transition (“some really poor decisions,” coach Mark Few said). Season lows in shooting both in and outside the arc (“didn’t get much of anything done”). And, mystifyingly, unable to get Hachimura more than a single field-goal attempt in the second half.
“I think pride kind of got in our way,” Few said, “and we attempted a lot of tougher shots.”

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2019/mar/12/john-blanchette-gonzagas-faceplant-in-wcc-tourname/

zagdontzig
03-13-2019, 03:02 PM
You're reading into very generalized statements about the team that Zach should have shot less. Suggesting pride made the team take some ill-advised shots is not synonymous with opining upon whether Zach should be quick on the trigger when he has an open look, even if he's been cold to that point.

I was addressing the two late shots he took and missed, the second off the rebound from the first. I'm not saying he should be taking fadeaways from the hash mark with a hand in his face. However,, statistically-speaking, if he's open, he should shoot, regardless of whether or not he's hot or cold to that point.

maynard g krebs
03-13-2019, 03:45 PM
Agree many of his and Perkins shot selections were questionable. 25 feet+ ?? I mentioned before that Zach's uncle told me he has always been a ice cold or red hot shooter since he was a kid. Some psychological block that could be addressed?

I don't think so. He's just left handed, which means he's right brain dominant. Without going into the left brain/right brain stuff too much, if you look at almost any left handed player, with maybe the possible exception of an alltime world class shooter like Chris Mullin, for example, you will see much more game by game swings in outside shooting % than you do w/ most right handed players. I'm left handed and have nights when I feel like I can't miss, and other nights when nothing goes in. Still true as I approach 65. What I've learned is that when my shot isn't going, I need to only take the wide open ones so my defender won't sag/help too much.

Norvell was doing a lot better in that regard until last night.

willandi
03-13-2019, 05:56 PM
What I saw as the difference was not just the fast break, it also was the passing.
On Monday night, the ball whipped around the perimeter. The passes were crisp and continual. Last night there was very little passing around the perimeter, so it was easy to sag into the paint and take away those passes.
It also made the tree's, even when open, in a different rhythm.

What I saw was that the team didn't pass the ball the same.

CDC84
03-13-2019, 06:20 PM
I watched the first half just now. That charging call on Norvell when he supposedly ran into the back of Ford (I think it was) was one of the worst calls I have seen this season. Norvell was clearly distraught after the call, and it went all down hill from there. I know it's hard, but you have to leave that stuff with the coaches. Let Few handle it. I think Few is better at working over the refs than some fans think. I have never been a big believer that throwing your jacket and going nuts leads to getting more calls. Look at how Coach K. does it.

tummydoc
03-13-2019, 07:07 PM
One thing not mentioned here is the layoff of a full week. Seems like the guys have to get a game or two before they return to form. Sluggish play last night might be an outcome of a layoff....

Actually, Dave Rose mentioned that and this board ridiculed him.

jpn17
03-13-2019, 07:54 PM
I totally disagree. Shooters regress to the mean, eventually. You don't know when that is, but down 9, with limited time, and the opposing team burning clock, if Zach has an open look, he should shoot. If we get the board and he has another open look, he should shoot again.

He made good basketball decisions, but had a bad night.

I agree with this 100%. Most of Norvell's attempts last night were good looks. He just didn't make them. And he wasn't the only Zag to have that issue yesterday.

jpn17
03-13-2019, 08:00 PM
Actually, Dave Rose mentioned that and this board ridiculed him.

In Rose's case BYU was playing their first game while USD was playing their third. But here SMC and GU were both in the same boat, playing their second game. And Gonzaga did not have any issues playing their first game against Pepperdine. So it's an excuse that holds no water IMO.

krozman
03-13-2019, 08:22 PM
I feel as though the guards collectively failed to realize how bad they were shooting themselves, and forgot that they had others on their team (Clarke) that were not in a slump. Gonzaga plays best when the guards are passing and facilitating. Clearly i'm not the coach, but what I saw from my own subjective point of view was a bunch of guards who felt responsible for the hole they were in, but felt that they needed to dig out of it by themselves. Recipe for disaster.

theman.themyth.thelegend
03-14-2019, 07:46 AM
I feel as though the guards collectively failed to realize how bad they were shooting themselves, and forgot that they had others on their team (Clarke) that were not in a slump. Gonzaga plays best when the guards are passing and facilitating. Clearly i'm not the coach, but what I saw from my own subjective point of view was a bunch of guards who felt responsible for the hole they were in, but felt that they needed to dig out of it by themselves. Recipe for disaster.

I agree, the guards must get back to passing. I've had the sense they have been starting to feel like its "their turn" to turn it on. Perkins alluded to this during a recent interview, about scoring more points. I realize they both have futures beyond bball and literally ALL the attention has been Clarke & Rui, yet now is not the time to "prove" yourself. Stay the course. You're on the #1 team for a reason, as in being the Captain of the Ship.

Our assists per game average was 19 per game, we've been putting up 11, 12, & 6 vs SMC.

They need to feed the bigs and each other again. I'm sure the tape will be telling. Both Norvell, Perkins, Geno had several opportunities to find the big underneath or an outlet, yet for some reason, they felt the need to attempt (force?) the floater, drive into two guys for a TO and steal, miss the outlet or kick out, etc.

They would hesitate, then take the 25' 3pt shot instead of finding guys or at very least...simply moving the ball.

Rui even lost interest as he wasn't getting the ball. He is accountable for some of this, yet several possessions he had good position in the paint, or at the elbow, only for Norvell and Perkins to stare at the rim while holding the ball. And they pulled the trigger.

I think a big part was not knowing how to deal with playing from behind since before Christmas. Again, stay the course. Keep doing what is working.

We played against the grain vs SMC, especially our lead guards, and Kispert or Geno weren't much better, they follow the others lead, no doubt.

Some soul searching is needed by our guards this week. In recent weeks they have really been pressing. Some of it is what the defense has given as they are adjusting to defenses sagging, but even then, Rui and Clarke, esp Tillie, were pretty darn open and we went back-to-back-back 3's when down 1 point. That is like being down 1 with 25 seconds to go, and launching 3's with 2 possessions to go = not smart.

They will figure it out. March Madness, whether you like it or not, is dictated by consistent and saavy guard play. They must step up. As good as our frontcourt is, there is always a team or two who will stop it, adjust, and in turn, we need to make proper adjustments. Its part Coaching, but mostly the 'Coaches' on the court i.e. guards.

Norvell and Perkins want to play their part, make an impact, but they aren't the saving grace of this team. And don't need to be. Just because you average "15 ppg" doesn't mean you have to score that if others are making shots. Its not a turn based offense as they've been treating it, rather an opportunistic offense.

Norvell has been very guilty of this in NCAA Tournament games, a hero in one game, doesn't mean you have to be the hero every game. So, quit pressing, find and take what defense gives you, and keep the ball moving, and assist #'s up. When our assists are up, our offense is unstoppable and sometimes our guards forget this. Keep defenses honest enough but play to our strengths. Simple formula.

Our hopes rest in the hands of Norvell and Perkins. Quite literally. It will be up to them to feed the guys, move the ball, find the winning play. Norvell's best games and our best games as a team is when he scores 14 pts, 5 rebs, 4 assits, 4-8 3pt. That kind of thing, I prefer when I notice Norvell but also not notice him, if that makes sense.

Zagricultural
03-14-2019, 08:17 AM
This game would've been totally different if Few had adjusted to SMC by running Tillie, Rui, and Clarke together

PeninsulaDog
03-14-2019, 08:23 AM
Or speeding up SMC's offensive possessions by applying 3/4 court pressure starting in first half. And I just honestly don't understand why Jeremy Jones wasn't put into the game before it was really too late. He always makes something happen, especially on defense -- very disruptive.

Zagceo
03-14-2019, 08:27 AM
I agree, the guards must get back to passing. I've had the sense they have been starting to feel like its "their turn" to turn it on. Perkins alluded to this during a recent interview, about scoring more points. I realize they both have futures beyond bball and literally ALL the attention has been Clarke & Rui, yet now is not the time to "prove" yourself. Stay the course. You're on the #1 team for a reason, as in being the Captain of the Ship.

Our assists per game average was 19 per game, we've been putting up 11, 12, & 6 vs SMC.

They need to feed the bigs and each other again. I'm sure the tape will be telling. Both Norvell, Perkins, Geno had several opportunities to find the big underneath or an outlet, yet for some reason, they felt the need to attempt (force?) the floater, drive into two guys for a TO and steal, miss the outlet or kick out, etc.

They would hesitate, then take the 25' 3pt shot instead of finding guys or at very least...simply moving the ball.

Rui even lost interest as he wasn't getting the ball. He is accountable for some of this, yet several possessions he had good position in the paint, or at the elbow, only for Norvell and Perkins to stare at the rim while holding the ball. And they pulled the trigger.

I think a big part was not knowing how to deal with playing from behind since before Christmas. Again, stay the course. Keep doing what is working.

We played against the grain vs SMC, especially our lead guards, and Kispert or Geno weren't much better, they follow the others lead, no doubt.

Some soul searching is needed by our guards this week. In recent weeks they have really been pressing. Some of it is what the defense has given as they are adjusting to defenses sagging, but even then, Rui and Clarke, esp Tillie, were pretty darn open and we went back-to-back-back 3's when down 1 point. That is like being down 1 with 25 seconds to go, and launching 3's with 2 possessions to go = not smart.

They will figure it out. March Madness, whether you like it or not, is dictated by consistent and saavy guard play. They must step up. As good as our frontcourt is, there is always a team or two who will stop it, adjust, and in turn, we need to make proper adjustments. Its part Coaching, but mostly the 'Coaches' on the court i.e. guards.

Norvell and Perkins want to play their part, make an impact, but they aren't the saving grace of this team. And don't need to be. Just because you average "15 ppg" doesn't mean you have to score that if others are making shots. Its not a turn based offense as they've been treating it, rather an opportunistic offense.

Norvell has been very guilty of this in NCAA Tournament games, a hero in one game, doesn't mean you have to be the hero every game. So, quit pressing, find and take what defense gives you, and keep the ball moving, and assist #'s up. When our assists are up, our offense is unstoppable and sometimes our guards forget this. Keep defenses honest enough but play to our strengths. Simple formula.

Our hopes rest in the hands of Norvell and Perkins. Quite literally. It will be up to them to feed the guys, move the ball, find the winning play. Norvell's best games and our best games as a team is when he scores 14 pts, 5 rebs, 4 assits, 4-8 3pt. That kind of thing, I prefer when I notice Norvell but also not notice him, if that makes sense.

^truth^



less of this

https://media.spokesman.com/photos/2019/03/12/GUgal004_t1200.jpg?298603a24e8d51915fce203907ff274 6e482a5a6




more of this

https://media.spokesman.com/photos/2019/03/12/GUgal007_t1200.jpg?298603a24e8d51915fce203907ff274 6e482a5a6

VinnyZag
03-14-2019, 08:46 AM
I'm not usually irrationally optimistic, but I have a feeling (based on nothing, except his performance in March last year) that Norvell is going to heat up during the tournament. If the Zags make the Final Four, he'll be the west region MOP.

raise the zag
03-14-2019, 08:53 AM
^truth^



less of this

https://media.spokesman.com/photos/2019/03/12/GUgal004_t1200.jpg?298603a24e8d51915fce203907ff274 6e482a5a6




more of this

https://media.spokesman.com/photos/2019/03/12/GUgal007_t1200.jpg?298603a24e8d51915fce203907ff274 6e482a5a6

The pictures capture exactly what was occuring.

Perkins had a huge game in Moraga as he converted his drive attempts.

SMC adjusted, we didnt.

There were numerous instances of Perkins and Norvell dribbling into nothing and trying to make the play afterward.

Sometimes, following bad team performances, the Coach will "throw away the tape", and simply move on.

I hope this games isn't one of those times.

So much on tape to learn from, mostly Perks, Geno, Snacks, but others too.

bartruff1
03-14-2019, 09:17 AM
565

Zagceo
03-14-2019, 09:52 AM
I watched the first half just now. That charging call on Norvell when he supposedly ran into the back of Ford (I think it was) was one of the worst calls I have seen this season. Norvell was clearly distraught after the call, and it went all down hill from there. I know it's hard, but you have to leave that stuff with the coaches. Let Few handle it. I think Few is better at working over the refs than some fans think. I have never been a big believer that throwing your jacket and going nuts leads to getting more calls. Look at how Coach K. does it.

read Hunters lips ....he says "GOOD FOUL" to Ford before he realizes the call was on Snax

Zagger
03-15-2019, 04:32 AM
SMC played a smart and well executed game. The Zags did neither.

raise the zag
03-15-2019, 08:47 AM
I'd like to see Zach hit the hoop hard more often.

Go at the rim - either draw foul or get the bucket. Put pressure on the defense from perimeter.

I love the 25' 3's as well, spreading the floor is great, yet Norvell is legit 6'5", 200lb guard. I wish I saw more of going to the rim.

Not to mention, he is our only legitimate threat around the rim, outside Rui/Clarke.

This team can beat anyone, yet as CDC pointed out, it often starts and ends with Norvell having a good game. If the past is any indication...its always him leading the charge, separation, dagger, or the comeback.

Zagger
03-15-2019, 09:17 AM
Me, being more on the specific topic of Norvell .... I really like Zach and admire his level of effort in each and every game. Some times you miss, some times you don’t. He’s one of the NBA possible Zags who I do think will benefit by playing another year @ GU. I feel his best play in a more consistent manner has yet to materialize as a Zag. I don’t count that out beginning next week.

This loss to SMC may have come at just the right time (full roster) to yield the best positive team response at the best time as there will have been a week and change to reflect, plan, strategize and practice. This loss could prove to be a blessing in disguise.