PDA

View Full Version : Koach Speaks: says Barrett was fouled



Zagceo
11-27-2018, 10:30 PM
then says he’s not gonna complain about it!

WHINER


Asked after Tuesday's dominant win against Indiana (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/team/_/id/84/indiana-hoosiers) if Barrett, in particular, had taken the loss hard, Krzyzewski argued that several key fouls hadn't been called, and the overreaction that followed the loss was problematic.


. Krzyzewski noted several plays on which he thought Gonzaga should've been whistled for fouls that weren't called, but he downplayed the impact on the final result, focusing instead on the reaction to the loss.
"We're not going to complain about that or say the refs lost the game, but come on," Krzyzewski said. "[Barrett] probably should've gone to the foul line. It doesn't mean we're going to win."

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/25397505/mike-krzyzewski-chides-duke-blue-devils-fans-let-not-get-spoiled

MEZAG
11-27-2018, 10:44 PM
There's the real Koach talking. Thats more like it.

gonstu
11-27-2018, 10:51 PM
poor koach and his 3 top five lottery picks

Saxon_zag
11-27-2018, 10:59 PM
Lol that idiot should watch back the "Fouls" on Brandon Clarke that were called. Much more key than Barrett flopping in the lane and not getting a call. Consider the 4 missed FT's a gift, but greedy coach K wanted the refs to give him one too. lol

WallaWallaZag
11-27-2018, 11:02 PM
watching the slo-mo replays, i would tend to agree that barrett was fouled on the last play...but to me it looked like perkins reaching in with the slap down across the arm. in any case, refs tend to swallow the whistle in that situation and the ref was blocked by rui. the dukies had plenty of chances to win that game anyways...they didn't convert. bringing up the refs is just typical k whining.

maynard g krebs
11-27-2018, 11:13 PM
I agree that several fouls could have been called on the Zags in the final minutes. But prior to that a bunch of ticky tacks had been called on the Zags, and that foul trouble was the primary reason the game even got close.

I've long called it "score management". You see it frequently in big tv ratings games involving marquee teams; refs made it close for drama, then gave the team that deserved to win, and probably still should have been up dbl digits, the non-calls at the end.

billyberu
11-27-2018, 11:18 PM
I agree that several fouls could have been called on the Zags in the final minutes. But prior to that a bunch of ticky tacks had been called on the Zags, and that foul trouble was the primary reason the game even got close.

I've long called it "score management". You see it frequently in big tv ratings games involving marquee teams; refs made it close for drama, then gave the team that deserved to win, and probably still should have been up dbl digits, the non-calls at the end.This.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

FuManShoes
11-27-2018, 11:22 PM
I agree that several fouls could have been called on the Zags in the final minutes. But prior to that a bunch of ticky tacks had been called on the Zags, and that foul trouble was the primary reason the game even got close.

I've long called it "score management". You see it frequently in big tv ratings games involving marquee teams; refs made it close for drama, then gave the team that deserved to win, and probably still should have been up dbl digits, the non-calls at the end.

Nailed it. Now wouldn't it be nice if they just called games straight up and let the chips fall where they may? As for Coach K, like Calipari, he's a whiny snit. An amazing coach (who's perhaps benefitted from a rep that keeps the blue chips coming), but a whiny snit all the same. I have no love loss or sympathy for Duke and a coach who spends all game with his face in the refs' ear lobbying for (and getting) calls who then whines that his poor kids were fouled when they drove full steam into the paint. Any other coach who badgers refs all game gets a T. Koach K gets plaudits.

CDC84
11-27-2018, 11:34 PM
Honestly, I didn't hear a single analyst complain about the call after the game. Rui was vertical. Sour grapes. What Coach K should be doing is teaching Barrett that when a teammate is wide open underneath the hoop, it's a good idea to pass the ball to him to tie the game up.

MDABE80
11-27-2018, 11:41 PM
There are key fouls in any game. Fouls made ar certain times. Overall, GU had 20 fouls called while Duke had 18 so it was not game called in GU's favor. The last foul on Barrett was a tough one to call as he barged into Rui and then had the last shock blocked and it was a clean block by Clarke as the replay shows.
Really Koach although disappointed in the outcome should be such a whiner. Duke was supposed to mug us and they got mugged instead.
As CDC says, this is the first time I've hear a complaint like this. Also though it's the first time I've not heard GU didn't deserve the no 1 ranking. Untill tonight when ESPN boosted Kansas to the no1 spot with some circuitous logic. ie Kansas has beat more top 10 teams. It took em some time to come up with that one but there may be some justification.
One thing's certain, Duke was supposed to win and didn't. We did. Nobody can argue with that.

sullyzag66
11-27-2018, 11:48 PM
Tainted. [emoji849]

sittingon50
11-27-2018, 11:54 PM
Such a caricature.........

Skimhvn
11-28-2018, 12:07 AM
I just remember Jeremy had a call with clean block

jazzdelmar
11-28-2018, 04:17 AM
Krybaby.

DixieZag
11-28-2018, 04:54 AM
That's pathetic.

GoZags
11-28-2018, 05:03 AM
He's been stewing about it for a week (and counting).

"We wuz robbed"

kitzbuel
11-28-2018, 05:07 AM
Them and ESPN were a little annoyed that GU disrupted their Zion Williamson slopfest. They couldn't even slow the media machine down after the loss.

They get to ramp it up again after the beating they gave Indiana with the Zion jamfest text alerts and all.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

TexasZagFan
11-28-2018, 05:17 AM
Them and ESPN were a little annoyed that GU disrupted their Zion Williamson slopfest. They couldn't even slow the media machine down after the loss.

They get to ramp it up again after the beating they gave Indiana with the Zion jamfest text alerts and all.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

ESPN had to dump hours of prerecorded video, and plans for weekly documentaries covering this year's undefeated season at Duke. They're really going to have trouble against Boeheim's zone.

Birddog
11-28-2018, 05:29 AM
Obviously "K" didn't listen to Smith's explanation for the loss.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvTBtAABtgg

Zagger
11-28-2018, 05:33 AM
Hey, that's college basketball. When a game gets close it accentuates that which goes on in a game from start to finish. The quick action of the high caliber in this kind of basketball game, with a bit slippery court to boot, it is going to make some zebra calls difficult/questionable. If you want to avoid that with the score differing by only 2 points ....... good luck!

Since we've already played Dook ..... I'd just as soon the Zags get the chance to beat more teams this season than to beat them again :)

MickMick
11-28-2018, 05:39 AM
This is hilarity. Duke not getting calls?

Good lord. Clarke missing minutes because of foul trouble is/was the only route for their comeback.

Goshzagit
11-28-2018, 05:43 AM
that particular play was about as clean of a play there is in the sport.

feet were moving with ballhandler, hands, arms, body straight up with ballhandler.

RJ Barrett fell backwards to draw a foul, with only contact being body to body on the move. Had he leaned forward or powered through, maybe.

there is no blocking foul when movement and positioning are mirroring ballhandler while maintaining a defensive position.

it was a beautiful defense by Rui, and followed up by Clarke.

Loved Clarkes swat, like get that outta here.

Duke was 17-0 in Hawaii prior to their defeat, of course they are a little bitter...they were "supposed" to go undefeated according to the media.

ps. we won't miss 4 straight FT's next time either

ZagMan in Philly
11-28-2018, 05:44 AM
Just accept defeat coach, you know which team was better that day.
He is trying to get the calls going his way, in case we meet again. He is tactical.

TexasZagFan
11-28-2018, 05:47 AM
Just accept defeat coach, you know which team was better that day.
He is trying to get the calls going his way, in case we meet again. He is tactical.

Koach should've thrown his jacket into the stands, it worked for him last night...lol.

JPtheBeasta
11-28-2018, 06:00 AM
Pretty pathetic. The Zags were brutalized by the refs in Maui, and not just the Duke game. At the end of the game, when refs typically let the players actually decide the game, they let them play. The refs didn’t reward bad offense with a foul call, which I appreciate.

zagfan24
11-28-2018, 06:00 AM
"We're not going to complain about that or say the refs lost the game, but come on," Krzyzewski said. "[Barrett] probably should've gone to the foul line. It doesn't mean we're going to win."

Says he's not going to complain about it. Next sentence, complains about it. Doesn't work that way coach. If you're going to talk about taking the high road you actually have to do so.

willandi
11-28-2018, 06:07 AM
In many high end sports, openly complaining about the officiating results in a suspension.

How many games should Coach K have to sit out? 2, 4?

zagnut2012
11-28-2018, 06:13 AM
Did anyone notice the Stephan A. Smith comment after it was pointed out that Gonzaga has gone to 4 Straight Sweet 16'S? "They are from the WCC..." What does that have to do with anything? It doesn't matter what conference you come from, It's what you do when you get there. Am I wrong? Last I checked, winning the "WCC" only gets you in the tourney. Go Zags!

Zagnut2012

zagsfanforlife
11-28-2018, 06:15 AM
Biggest whiner in college hoops. Dude is constantly tagging the officials, trying to use his clout to influence calls. And now days later he complains about calls sour grapes. He is no better than coach cal now... you think these lottery picks are going to class once hoops is done? Stop acting like a saint coach k. You care about the wins. One of my disliked coaches and programs ever.

scrooner
11-28-2018, 06:20 AM
Anyone else notice that Barrett and Williamson, who played 39 and 37 minutes, each only had ONE foul called on them the entire game? I'm not saying, I'm just saying.

Had Barrett been given free throws to tie the game, I think we'd be happy with his 62.5% free throw shooting.

thespywhozaggedme
11-28-2018, 06:54 AM
Anton Watson weighed in:

People really don’t want to accept that duke loss�� GU is just good

https://twitter.com/twonster4080/status/1065468431833563136?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Eembeddedtimeline%7Ctwterm%5Eprofile%3Atwonster408 0%7Ctwcon%5Etimelinechrome&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nbadraft.net%2Fplayers%2 Fanton-watson

DixieZag
11-28-2018, 07:27 AM
Anyone else notice that Barrett and Williamson, who played 39 and 37 minutes, each only had ONE foul called on them the entire game? I'm not saying, I'm just saying.

Had Barrett been given free throws to tie the game, I think we'd be happy with his 62.5% free throw shooting.

Yes, actually, I had. I thought that the foul situation regarding the bigs was the story of the game beyond GU winning. At one point with 11:00 mins in the second half, the foul disparity was either 8-1 or 7-1, so you have to believe that Duke, playing to get back in it, was grossly out-fouled by GU sitting on a lead with bigs in foul trouble, to believe the fouls reflected reality.

I knew that the refs would realize the disparity when Duke started going to the line. Next foul called on a Duke guard way up near the top of the key, resulted in nothing but an out of bounds, but it got that number off of "1" as it started to look bad, so the foul was called in the least intrusive manner.

It doesn't take a grand conspiracy to comprise what Maynard calls "Game Management" and refs get rewarded for proper game management. I don't doubt refs love 3 paydays while sitting on the beach in Maui, and those that brought Duke back into it with the east coast tuned in at 7:00 p.m. are noted as refs who understand the needs of ESPN and the east coast audience.

Thankfully, once a great game was ensured, they put their whistles in their pocket and let the kids decide. Koach just thinks he's owed more. By opening his mouth about this, he's revealing a ton, and I do very much appreciate that, Koach.

caldwellzag
11-28-2018, 07:42 AM
I agree that several fouls could have been called on the Zags in the final minutes. But prior to that a bunch of ticky tacks had been called on the Zags, and that foul trouble was the primary reason the game even got close.

I've long called it "score management". You see it frequently in big tv ratings games involving marquee teams; refs made it close for drama, then gave the team that deserved to win, and probably still should have been up dbl digits, the non-calls at the end.

Spot on!

Birddog
11-28-2018, 07:50 AM
We're not going to complain about that or say the refs lost the game, but come on," Krzyzewski said. "[Barrett] probably should've gone to the foul line. It doesn't mean we're going to win."

This is a first cousin to a loaded question. "K" is a peevish POS and I wonder if he still beats his wife.

Zagsker
11-28-2018, 08:08 AM
I just remember Jeremy had a call with clean block

Yes, that one the ref guessed on...I even recall hearing the whistle a little early on that

Markburn1
11-28-2018, 08:17 AM
Yes, actually, I had. I thought that the foul situation regarding the bigs was the story of the game beyond GU winning. At one point with 11:00 mins in the second half, the foul disparity was either 8-1 or 7-1, so you have to believe that Duke, playing to get back in it, was grossly out-fouled by GU sitting on a lead with bigs in foul trouble, to believe the fouls reflected reality.

I knew that the refs would realize the disparity when Duke started going to the line. Next foul called on a Duke guard way up near the top of the key, resulted in nothing but an out of bounds, but it got that number off of "1" as it started to look bad, so the foul was called in the least intrusive manner.

It doesn't take a grand conspiracy to comprise what Maynard calls "Game Management" and refs get rewarded for proper game management. I don't doubt refs love 3 paydays while sitting on the beach in Maui, and those that brought Duke back into it with the east coast tuned in at 7:00 p.m. are noted as refs who understand the needs of ESPN and the east coast audience.

Thankfully, once a great game was ensured, they put their whistles in their pocket and let the kids decide. Koach just thinks he's owed more. By opening his mouth about this, he's revealing a ton, and I do very much appreciate that, Koach.

I don't know Dix. I have a hard time believing that the refs are that good to make in game decisions with Machiavellian tendencies. Most of them have a hard time simply making the correct decisions within the normal flow of the game. Factoring in networks and beach vacations while calling a high level game seems a stretch. Then having the conspiracy stretch to the networks assigning particular refs to games in case they need to keep it close late based on East coast time???? That places a whole lot of people in a position to guess and manipulate outcomes.

Hoopaholic
11-28-2018, 08:18 AM
I don't know Dix. I have a hard time believing that the refs are that good to make in game decisions with Machiavellian tendencies. Most of them have a hard time simply making the correct decisions within the normal flow of the game. Factoring in networks and beach vacations while calling a high level game seems a stretch. Then having the conspiracy stretch to the networks assigning particular refs to games in case they need to keep it close late based on East coast time???? That places a whole lot of people in a position to guess and manipulate outcomes.

good RICO case if it is even remotely accurate

Marcus
11-28-2018, 09:16 AM
Just my opinion, and I can't believe I'm actually going to defend Coach K here, the context for this was in defense of RJ Barrett. After watching the whole clip and listening to how Coach phrased his answer, I didn't feel like he was complaining about the fouls as a reason they lost. I believe he was sticking up for his guy and the absolutely brutal treatment by Duke fans of RJ and how they were pinning the loss on him. It was getting pretty nasty and after all, they are just kids playing a game. I would fully expect Few to do the same if one of his guys got that much heat for a loss. The strange thing to me here is that a lot of Duke fans see this loss as a bad loss. It was to the 3rd ranked team in the country people, not some unranked nobody's who miraculously played the game of their life before they drift back into obscurity.

bartruff1
11-28-2018, 09:18 AM
good RICO case if it is even remotely accurate

It is a know fact that these 3 officials were on the grassy knoll....

DixieZag
11-28-2018, 09:20 AM
I don't know Dix. I have a hard time believing that the refs are that good to make in game decisions with Machiavellian tendencies. Most of them have a hard time simply making the correct decisions within the normal flow of the game. Factoring in networks and beach vacations while calling a high level game seems a stretch. Then having the conspiracy stretch to the networks assigning particular refs to games in case they need to keep it close late based on East coast time???? That places a whole lot of people in a position to guess and manipulate outcomes.

Please don't read me as believing in some giant conspiracy where these things are talked about. That's not it.

It's not all that much more complicated than knowing that close games are better than blow outs. Zags were up 10-15 most of the game, up 8 at halftime, and one could watch the calls mount up on the 2nd half and know exactly what was going to happen when the Zags needed to send BC to the bench.

And it's also just a matter of the best refs get the best jobs. The Maui tournament hires the crews, they will hire those known to be "best." It's not like the refs have to have all that going through their heads at the time, only that they're expected to help "manage" the game for TV, and lean that direction. It really doesn't take a lot of cloak and dagger stuff.

I do not buy into the grander conspiracy theories about who gets voted for what, geez even reading the Kansas board was embarrassing, seeing that the votes for Number One reflected some need to keep the recruiting news out of the papers. No, I don't go that deep, only that close games between big names are good business, and the NCAA is all about good business.

I could be wrong.

Markburn1
11-28-2018, 09:34 AM
Please don't read me as believing in some giant conspiracy where these things are talked about. That's not it.

It's not all that much more complicated than knowing that close games are better than blow outs. Zags were up 10-15 most of the game, up 8 at halftime, and one could watch the calls mount up on the 2nd half and know exactly what was going to happen when the Zags needed to send BC to the bench.

And it's also just a matter of the best refs get the best jobs. The Maui tournament hires the crews, they will hire those known to be "best." It's not like the refs have to have all that going through their heads at the time, only that they're expected to help "manage" the game for TV, and lean that direction. It really doesn't take a lot of cloak and dagger stuff.

I do not buy into the grander conspiracy theories about who gets voted for what, geez even reading the Kansas board was embarrassing, seeing that the votes for Number One reflected some need to keep the recruiting news out of the papers. No, I don't go that deep, only that close games between big names are good business, and the NCAA is all about good business.

I could be wrong.

I get it. I just think it was inevitable that Duke would make a run. And the three officials for that game, the most notable being Valentine, aren't that clever in my opinion. And yes, I watch way too much college basketball to know the officials BEFORE they start the game.

TimberZag
11-28-2018, 09:47 AM
Just my opinion, and I can't believe I'm actually going to defend Coach K here, the context for this was in defense of RJ Barrett. After watching the whole clip and listening to how Coach phrased his answer, I didn't feel like he was complaining about the fouls as a reason they lost. I believe he was sticking up for his guy and the absolutely brutal treatment by Duke fans of RJ and how they were pinning the loss on him. It was getting pretty nasty and after all, they are just kids playing a game. I would fully expect Few to do the same if one of his guys got that much heat for a loss. The strange thing to me here is that a lot of Duke fans see this loss as a bad loss. It was to the 3rd ranked team in the country people, not some unranked nobody's who miraculously played the game of their life before they drift back into obscurity.

Agreed. I thought the direction of his comments to quiet the Duke fans, not to say they should’ve won. He was defending his team. We all have our own opinions on what the refs call or don’t call.

JPtheBeasta
11-28-2018, 10:00 AM
I think Coach’s K should concern himself with coaching Barrett to pass the ball.

Radbooks
11-28-2018, 10:02 AM
While he was defending his player this time, he also complained about the refs in the press conference right after the game too. I mentioned it in one of the threads last week because I felt he was 'crying' then too.

zaguarxj
11-28-2018, 10:11 AM
Obviously "K" didn't listen to Smith's explanation for the loss.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvTBtAABtgg

Did the Zags really play that much zone? Seems to me that they were mostly doing the switching M2M.

zaguarxj
11-28-2018, 10:22 AM
Just my opinion, and I can't believe I'm actually going to defend Coach K here, the context for this was in defense of RJ Barrett. After watching the whole clip and listening to how Coach phrased his answer, I didn't feel like he was complaining about the fouls as a reason they lost. I believe he was sticking up for his guy and the absolutely brutal treatment by Duke fans of RJ and how they were pinning the loss on him. It was getting pretty nasty and after all, they are just kids playing a game. I would fully expect Few to do the same if one of his guys got that much heat for a loss. The strange thing to me here is that a lot of Duke fans see this loss as a bad loss. It was to the 3rd ranked team in the country people, not some unranked nobody's who miraculously played the game of their life before they drift back into obscurity.

Because "bad loss" fits the tired and silly "Gonzaga is overrated" narrative.

Birddog
11-28-2018, 10:24 AM
Did the Zags really play that much zone? Seems to me that they were mostly doing the switching M2M.

No they didn't maybe 5 mins. SAS is a nutcase, a loud nutcase. But he does have a good opinion of himself.

Zagceo
11-28-2018, 10:35 AM
Just my opinion, and I can't believe I'm actually going to defend Coach K here, the context for this was in defense of RJ Barrett. After watching the whole clip and listening to how Coach phrased his answer, I didn't feel like he was complaining about the fouls as a reason they lost. I believe he was sticking up for his guy and the absolutely brutal treatment by Duke fans of RJ and how they were pinning the loss on him. It was getting pretty nasty and after all, they are just kids playing a game. I would fully expect Few to do the same if one of his guys got that much heat for a loss. The strange thing to me here is that a lot of Duke fans see this loss as a bad loss. It was to the 3rd ranked team in the country people, not some unranked nobody's who miraculously played the game of their life before they drift back into obscurity.

I understand intention but it could have been done without questioning the Refs. Reverse the situation Dook Nation would be unhinged. Koach could have put end to it by just saying I made the call to drive it. end of story

How many caught Koach scolding Duke Students last night when they started "Over Rated" chant directed at Langford?

Worthington
11-28-2018, 10:47 AM
Lucky that game was close in the first place. We outplayed them for nearly the entire game and earned that win. It's hard to get a call like that at the end of the game when you're player is consistently putting his head down and barreling into traffic. I've seen some questionable calls/non-calls at the end of games that are worth making a stink about, but that wasn't one of them.

Marcus
11-28-2018, 10:48 AM
I understand intention but it could have been done without questioning the Refs. Reverse the situation Dook Nation would be unhinged. Koach could have put end to it by just saying I made the call to drive it. end of story

How many caught Koach scolding Duke Students last night when they started "Over Rated" chant directed at Langford?

That is fair, he didn't have to mention the refs as a part of his defense of his players. And I totally believe that it was Coach K's call to put the ball in RJ's hands at the top of the key on the last possession. All he really needed to say was that I made the call to set that up, end of story. I still respect the intent though.

And I did catch that last night too. Not sure I've seen too many coaches concern themselves with the student section chants during a game before. Interesting that he chose to do that.

billbow47
11-28-2018, 11:34 AM
Obviously "K" didn't listen to Smith's explanation for the loss.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvTBtAABtgg

Smith doesn't know the difference between a switching man to man and a zone. The Zags played zone for a very short time in this game.

bballbeachbum
11-28-2018, 11:40 AM
I get it. I just think it was inevitable that Duke would make a run. And the three officials for that game, the most notable being Valentine, aren't that clever in my opinion. And yes, I watch way too much college basketball to know the officials BEFORE they start the game.

me too. frankly, not difficult to manage a game by the refs, come on. it's not rocket science, which is why home cooking has actually got its own name, home cooking. if you've ever been on the receiving end as a coach you know it's smell quite well.

simply, just call games a certain way that dictates style of play, or targets fouls on specific players, and that's just the simplest of ways to go about it. I'm not going to get into specifics, but simply brushing it aside as impossible under the guise of it's too complex to comprehend let alone execute belies what we all see, some of us for decades and decades btw.

and in the big level sports, with all the money involved, well, it's all about the money, isn't it?

Markburn1
11-28-2018, 12:45 PM
me too. frankly, not difficult to manage a game by the refs, come on. it's not rocket science, which is why home cooking has actually got its own name, home cooking. if you've ever been on the receiving end as a coach you know it's smell quite well.

simply, just call games a certain way that dictates style of play, or targets fouls on specific players, and that's just the simplest of ways to go about it. I'm not going to get into specifics, but simply brushing it aside as impossible under the guise of it's too complex to comprehend let alone execute belies what we all see, some of us for decades and decades btw.

and in the big level sports, with all the money involved, well, it's all about the money, isn't it?

I'm with you to a point. My problem is in this thread we are asked to believe the refs were fair until it looked like the Zags might blow the Dookies out of the water. Then, they managed the game in such a way as to give the Evil Empire a chance to win the game. After they accomplished that, they again changed their modus operandi to letting the better team win. I just have a hard time believing all of that happened.


If we are following the money, wouldn't it have been in ESPN's interest to have the Dooksters remain undefeated so they could continue the narrative of the most talent ever assembled this side of the Miss World contest? The best basketball team since Naismith stole a peach basket?

I guarantee you, somewhere in the Devil's Den they are blue because the conspiracy theory there is that the network, the refs and the money guys were all in cahoots to develop a narrative that a Zags win would rescue the season from the inevitability of a boring march to the championship from a vastly better team. The view from there is that the refs "managed" the last few minutes of the game to produce the outcome desired.


Either of those scenarios strikes me as disrespectful of both teams as it relegates the outcome to a predetermined path instead of a fabulous game between two hugely talented groups.

MDABE80
11-28-2018, 01:05 PM
Doesn't matter. Game's is over. We won. In the rearview now/ Let win out in December.

GonzagasaurusFlex
11-28-2018, 01:12 PM
Doesn't matter. Game's is over. We won. In the rearview now/ Let win out in December.

Yep! Zags need to ignore the talk. Us fans can hope for a tourney game rematch...anywhere, anytime

Zagdawg
11-28-2018, 01:17 PM
Agree-- take the higher ground and move on -- hope we see them again in March to give them another taste of the Zags.

bartruff1
11-28-2018, 02:02 PM
I don't...

sittingon50
11-28-2018, 02:30 PM
Agree-- take the higher ground and move on -- hope we see them again in March to give them another taste of the Zags.

Zags have a play or two they didn't show in Maui:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSdv_llkpkk

seacatfan
11-28-2018, 03:57 PM
Any doubts I ever had about K's character (or lack thereof) were erased in the aftermath of the Gerald Henderson hatchet job flying elbow drop to Hansbrough's head. It took him a day or so, but K eventually laid the blame on Roy and Carolina for having Hansbrough in the game still. Real classy. Also took no disciplinary action toward Henderson IIRC. This is also the coach who put up with Grayson Allen's antics until public pressure finally forced him to respond and he came down really hard with an "indefinite suspension" that lasted all of 1 game. The dissonance between K's reputation among the media and what kind of guy he really is, well, it boggles my mind.

NEC26
11-28-2018, 04:39 PM
Any doubts I ever had about K's character (or lack thereof) were erased in the aftermath of the Gerald Henderson hatchet job flying elbow drop to Hansbrough's head. It took him a day or so, but K eventually laid the blame on Roy and Carolina for having Hansbrough in the game still. Real classy. Also took no disciplinary action toward Henderson IIRC. This is also the coach who put up with Grayson Allen's antics until public pressure finally forced him to respond and he came down really hard with an "indefinite suspension" that lasted all of 1 game. The dissonance between K's reputation among the media and what kind of guy he really is, well, it boggles my mind.

Spot on, I have no respect for him at all.

Hoopaholic
11-28-2018, 04:45 PM
Spot on, I have no respect for him at all.

I lost all respect when I worked executive protection detail assigned to duke in Seattle never been same since being able observe behind scenes atmosphere and actions

Zagricultural
11-28-2018, 05:05 PM
Any doubts I ever had about K's character (or lack thereof) were erased in the aftermath of the Gerald Henderson hatchet job flying elbow drop to Hansbrough's head. It took him a day or so, but K eventually laid the blame on Roy and Carolina for having Hansbrough in the game still. Real classy. Also took no disciplinary action toward Henderson IIRC. This is also the coach who put up with Grayson Allen's antics until public pressure finally forced him to respond and he came down really hard with an "indefinite suspension" that lasted all of 1 game. The dissonance between K's reputation among the media and what kind of guy he really is, well, it boggles my mind.

I agree. Man's a smooth interview, but has consistently fielded dirty teams.

jazzdelmar
11-28-2018, 05:13 PM
Details please?


I lost all respect when I worked executive protection detail assigned to duke in Seattle never been same since being able observe behind scenes atmosphere and actions

coolhandzag
11-28-2018, 09:56 PM
I dont know what will happen in March, but I know what happened in Maui 18.

The Zags won.....as a matter of observation....the Zags damn near ran Duke out of the gym.

Koack wants to ##### about missed calls? Laughable. No THC needed.

gonstu
11-28-2018, 10:37 PM
Details please?

I second this motion. Got my popcorn ready.

Hoopaholic
11-28-2018, 11:21 PM
Details please?

The public persona is completely different behind locker room doors

Find me in San Diego and we can chuckle over beers

MickMick
11-29-2018, 03:46 AM
You can't argue with success.

When Duke beat Gonzaga in the NCAA tournament, I'll never forget how Coack K pulled Pangos aside in the postgame handshake line and took extra time to offer congratulations for a great college career. It was obvious that a lot of respect was being paid. I thought that was a very classy move.

We see questionable officiating all of the time. Every week. Many of us are guilty of complaining about it. I do agree, however, that there is the perception (and probable reality) that Duke gets their share of favorable calls. Kudos to coaches that work every angle to support their players, which is all that the Duke coach was doing when his comments are taken in proper context.

I think a March rematch with Duke would be epic. Just put Michigan on their side of the bracket first please.

DixieZag
11-29-2018, 05:07 AM
You can't argue with success.

When Duke beat Gonzaga in the NCAA tournament, I'll never forget how Coack K pulled Pangos aside in the postgame handshake line and took extra time to offer congratulations for a great college career. It was obvious that a lot of respect was being paid. I thought that was a very classy move.

We see questionable officiating all of the time. Every week. Many of us are guilty of complaining about it. I do agree, however, that there is the perception (and probable reality) that Duke gets their share of favorable calls. Kudos to coaches that work every angle to support their players, which is all that the Duke coach was doing when his comments are taken in proper context.

I think a March rematch with Duke would be epic. Just put Michigan on their side of the bracket first please.

Great comment.

I'd note, though, that it's pretty easy to be classy and magnanimous in a line where you just won, won to go to the FF. But you're right, it IS a classy move.

I'm proud that our coach can demonstrate class even in a loss. Few is every bit as gracious to Randy/Rose when he just suffered a loss, there's no real difference. Few has also started to take younger coaches aside for a bit of a pep talk after victories, and opposing players who are special. Kinda proud that Zag fans even showed a lot of appreciation for Max at LMU and his star, both very good guys and the fans gave them big applause.

23dpg
11-29-2018, 07:15 AM
I honestly thought Coach K was just trying to protect his player. RJ was getting beat up in the chat rooms and the media.

seacatfan
11-29-2018, 11:22 AM
K can be gracious in victory. It's a different story in defeat. After UO beat up Duke in the Tourney several years ago, he had different kind of words for one of the Duck players during the handshake line. I think it was Dillon Brooks. K actually scolded him for taking a shot late in the game. Can you imagine have the cajones to scold one of the opposing players? Altman was not happy about that. He has his apologists, but K is a jerk.

jazzdelmar
11-29-2018, 12:51 PM
OTOH, when Lehigh shocked K, his post game talk was totally magnanimous. He said McCollum was the best player on the court.

scrooner
11-29-2018, 12:59 PM
K can be gracious in victory. It's a different story in defeat. After UO beat up Duke in the Tourney several years ago, he had different kind of words for one of the Duck players during the handshake line. I think it was Dillon Brooks. K actually scolded him for taking a shot late in the game. Can you imagine have the cajones to scold one of the opposing players? Altman was not happy about that. He has his apologists, but K is a jerk.

And he lied about it. https://www.nbcsports.com/video/coach-k-denies-talking-dillon-brooks-about-sportsmanship

FlyZag
11-29-2018, 01:09 PM
I honestly thought Coach K was just trying to protect his player. RJ was getting beat up in the chat rooms and the media.

THIS!!!!

RJ was getting flayed for his "hero ball". Koach stood up for his player. I respect that. Doesn't matter if it was true or not. He stood up for his player. We would want Coach Few to do the same for one of ours in the same circumstances.

maynard g krebs
11-29-2018, 02:05 PM
K can be gracious in victory. It's a different story in defeat. After UO beat up Duke in the Tourney several years ago, he had different kind of words for one of the Duck players during the handshake line. I think it was Dillon Brooks. K actually scolded him for taking a shot late in the game. Can you imagine have the cajones to scold one of the opposing players? Altman was not happy about that. He has his apologists, but K is a jerk.

Yes, it was Brooks; I remember it well. Ducks were up about 15, and got the ball back with something like 40 seconds left in the game. They held the ball near midcourt for like 27 seconds, and Brooks fired up a 27 footer as it expired and the shot happened to go in, with like 10 seconds left in the game. If the clock was under 30 sec, he would have just held the ball.

kitzbuel
11-29-2018, 02:07 PM
Yes, it was Brooks; I remember it well. Ducks were up about 15, and got the ball back with something like 40 seconds left in the game. They held the ball near midcourt for like 27 seconds, and Brooks fired up a 27 footer as it expired and the shot happened to go in, with like 10 seconds left in the game. If the clock was under 30 sec, he would have just held the ball.

My advice is if you don't like shots being taken on you, then defend them.

bballbeachbum
11-29-2018, 05:07 PM
I'm with you to a point. My problem is in this thread we are asked to believe the refs were fair until it looked like the Zags might blow the Dookies out of the water. Then, they managed the game in such a way as to give the Evil Empire a chance to win the game. After they accomplished that, they again changed their modus operandi to letting the better team win. I just have a hard time believing all of that happened.


If we are following the money, wouldn't it have been in ESPN's interest to have the Dooksters remain undefeated so they could continue the narrative of the most talent ever assembled this side of the Miss World contest? The best basketball team since Naismith stole a peach basket?

I guarantee you, somewhere in the Devil's Den they are blue because the conspiracy theory there is that the network, the refs and the money guys were all in cahoots to develop a narrative that a Zags win would rescue the season from the inevitability of a boring march to the championship from a vastly better team. The view from there is that the refs "managed" the last few minutes of the game to produce the outcome desired.


Either of those scenarios strikes me as disrespectful of both teams as it relegates the outcome to a predetermined path instead of a fabulous game between two hugely talented groups.

Hey Markburn, we see things differently on this but I enjoy the discussion, thank you.

Whether it affects disrespectfully to both teams or not is irrelevant, though I share your distaste for that aspect. as has been noted, the zebras tried to get Duke back in the game, as predictable as the tides that was to start the second half, and many prognosticated that one, not just me. there is a reason folks can do that, you know? but there is still only so far refs can go, and just becasue a team that's getting the short end is able to overcome does not mean the BS didn't happen.

and my original point still stands: it's much more simple to do than what you intimated to be much more difficult. I stopped watching the NBA becasue it was just too darn obvious and to use your word, disrespectful...to us the fans.

as for Duke fans complaining about the refs, :lmao: I wasn't complaining as a Zag fan, I was simply noting the nature of the way certain games and teams are officiated, and that it happens because it does.

Anyway, I don't think it's about predetermining, the nuance is about helping, influencing. I agree with maynard's take a lot as an example of how it's done.

maynard g krebs
11-29-2018, 07:39 PM
Anyway, I don't think it's about predetermining, the nuance is about helping, influencing. I agree with maynard's take a lot as an example of how it's done.

Interesting to me that when I said the same thing 8 or 10 years ago, I was offered quite a few sets of aluminum foil headgear. Now I'm getting a lot of "spot on" and the like.

And it is pretty simple for refs to do, really. So many calls/non calls can go either way.

bartruff1
11-29-2018, 07:42 PM
I don't believe for a minute the officials would manage the game for some preferred outcome...

Zagricultural
11-29-2018, 07:49 PM
I don't believe for a minute the officials would manage the game for some preferred outcome...

With millions changing hands in Vegas it's naive to think there isn't refs being paid.

maynard g krebs
11-29-2018, 08:01 PM
With millions changing hands in Vegas it's naive to think there isn't refs being paid.

Doesn't even have to be corruption on that level. These guys are getting upwards of 3k for reffing a 2 hour game; a tacit understanding of what's wanted by the powers that be (ESPN, CBS et al) is all that's needed. Those who deliver the desired results get the work. In my tinfoil hat opinion, of course.

I have followed college basketball since about 1962, when I was eight years old. For the first 25 or so of those years, I would see a bad call here or there, but no discernible pattern of obvious manipulation. Never occurred to me to even consider that, for decades. Now it's generally predictable, imo, in high interest games.

Big money often leads to corruption. And they know we're addicted to their product, so even those of us who complain aren't gonna stop watching.

Zagsker
11-29-2018, 08:06 PM
I don't believe for a minute the officials would manage the game for some preferred outcome...

Tinfoil fans and irrational coaches and players believe a disparity in foul count is "proof" the "fix is in"...whereas, anyone who has EVER reffed basketball knows "your team is fouling more so...stop it".

There are literally coaches who tell their teams to play uber aggressive on D because "they can't dare call everything"

The only thing refs are told to keep an eye remotely on is team foul count, ideally prior to bonus, and this is simply a product of game management to avoid coaches and fans being thrown out because of tinfoil hat ideas that "there is no way our team is fouling more you must be getting paid" mental midgets

Alum08
11-29-2018, 08:27 PM
Tinfoil fans and irrational coaches and players believe a disparity in foul count is "proof" the "fix is in"...whereas, anyone who has EVER reffed basketball knows "your team is fouling more so...stop it".

There are literally coaches who tell their teams to play uber aggressive on D because "they can't dare call everything"

The only thing refs are told to keep an eye remotely on is team foul count, ideally prior to bonus, and this is simply a product of game management to avoid coaches and fans being thrown out because of tinfoil hat ideas that "there is no way our team is fouling more you must be getting paid" mental midgetsI would argue that it's less about foul discrepancies, and more about game flow. Basketball is a game of runs and if you can tactically disrupt them, then you can manage the game to a large effect.

ProVeeZag
11-29-2018, 09:14 PM
Interesting to me that when I said the same thing 8 or 10 years ago, I was offered quite a few sets of aluminum foil headgear. Now I'm getting a lot of "spot on" and the like.

And it is pretty simple for refs to do, really. So many calls/non calls can go either way.

These two obviously agree with you ~ I don't recognize the cat, but the guy on the left looks oddly familiar...

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/a0/1c/9a/a01c9a716db4dbbc6a2a5ba4696d8171.jpg

willandi
11-29-2018, 09:40 PM
Tinfoil fans and irrational coaches and players believe a disparity in foul count is "proof" the "fix is in"...whereas, anyone who has EVER reffed basketball knows "your team is fouling more so...stop it".

There are literally coaches who tell their teams to play uber aggressive on D because "they can't dare call everything"

The only thing refs are told to keep an eye remotely on is team foul count, ideally prior to bonus, and this is simply a product of game management to avoid coaches and fans being thrown out because of tinfoil hat ideas that "there is no way our team is fouling more you must be getting paid" mental midgets

Thank you for your opinion. However, that does not take away from the fact a called foul that could go either way, can dramatically change not only the tenor, the pace of a game, but also the outcome.

We already have history that there have been refs that have taken money to 'fix' games. If you think that there are still some not willing to do so, you are naive. It may not be for actual pay-offs, but, as has been suggested, having a propensity to call certain games in certain ways may get you more work and more big time games, getting selected by conferences that pay more. the possibilities are almost endless.

To watch games and see how they are affected by officiating isn't necessarily the sign of a tinfoil hat. Sometimes it is recognizing what is happening.

Zagsker
11-29-2018, 09:42 PM
I will say this...go officiate basketball games at a somewhat competitive level and then make comments on officiating...the general coaching, players and fan community have no real understanding of the rules and complexity (both game and social dynamics) of reffing

willandi
11-29-2018, 09:43 PM
I would like to see a rule change, or instituted, in NCAA basketball, where a coach (and no assistants) are allowed to ask a ref 'What did you see?" or words to that effect. Anything else, any chewing on a refs ear, barking is an automatic 'T'.

Zagsker
11-29-2018, 09:44 PM
Thank you for your opinion. However, that does not take away from the fact a called foul that could go either way, can dramatically change not only the tenor, the pace of a game, but also the outcome.

We already have history that there have been refs that have taken money to 'fix' games. If you think that there are still some not willing to do so, you are naive. It may not be for actual pay-offs, but, as has been suggested, having a propensity to call certain games in certain ways may get you more work and more big time games, getting selected by conferences that pay more. the possibilities are almost endless.

To watch games and see how they are affected by officiating isn't necessarily the sign of a tinfoil hat. Sometimes it is recognizing what is happening.

Of course fouls being called can change the course of a game...but just because there was a foul called does not mean an intent to purposefully change the course of the game...simply a foul was called that one participant does not agree with

bartruff1
11-29-2018, 09:45 PM
I love conspiracies....they are hilarious....they have to grow like Topsy in order to keep going...more and more people have to be involved until everyone is in on it...or they end like a Ponzi scheme when there are no more suckers.....

willandi
11-29-2018, 09:49 PM
Of course fouls being called can change the course of a game...but just because there was a foul called does not mean an intent to purposefully change the course of the game...simply a foul was called that one participant does not agree with

Again. Thank you for you opinion. It doesn't change what I said.

I firmly believe that there are crooked refs in the game of high stakes NCAA basketball.

ProVeeZag
11-29-2018, 09:54 PM
I will say this...go officiate basketball games at a somewhat competitive level and then make comments on officiating...the general coaching, players and fan community have no real understanding of the rules and complexity (both game and social dynamics) of reffing

That's a very fair statement. At NCAA D-1 level especially, the sheer speed of play and athleticism of players guarantees you're not going to get 'em all right. Refs are at their best when they are not noticed. Tough, tough work.

willandi
11-29-2018, 10:07 PM
I will say this...go officiate basketball games at a somewhat competitive level and then make comments on officiating...the general coaching, players and fan community have no real understanding of the rules and complexity (both game and social dynamics) of reffing

I am a jeweler. Don't complain about what jewelers charge until you try and set a $30,000 diamond/emerald/sapphire.

If the refs are accepting money to officiate at this level, anything but consistent, quality calls is not enough. Anticipating calls doesn't cut it. Not seeing the defensive player has (or doesn't have) position and is (or isn't) in a legal blocking position and outside the arc, doesn't cut it.

Being paid means being a professional. It means that when people review the game you reffed, 50/50 calls go equally both ways, not predominantly towards one side.

The start of the 2nd half against Duke, the Zags were the aggressors. Almost everyone says that the calls should be weighted in their favor, and yet fouls were 7-1 or 8-1 against Gonzaga. That speaks against unbiased and fair calling...one way or the other. The aggressors can't be favored in some games and not in others. I just don't see life that way.

Ans so far, all you are doing is sharing opinions, which is what I am doing. You have given no facts. There is the fact that refs HAVE cheated in the past, and nothing to say they aren't currently doing so.

bartruff1
11-30-2018, 02:30 AM
There are crooked doctors, crooked lawyers, crooked indian chiefs and cowboys and even crooked engineers....not to mention jewelers ….and crooked players and officials...but they are not common and widespread and I (for one) cannot imagine that most would manage a game to make it more interesting or to pick a winner or a score….

There are now dozens if not hundreds of places to make bets.... many of them are very highly regulated public and private business whose most valuable/essential asset is their reputation for honesty....they have the most to lose if the sport is perceived as crooked....in any case they don't bet on the games, they are like escrow companies that hold the funds until closing ..

I suspect the regulatory and law enforcement agencies have computer programs that monitor every game and official to determine if there is a pattern that would indicate that something is fishy.... it is a lot easier to catch them now...

It is all about projection, when I watch a game I am sure it is not being managed by the officials to please the Gnomes of Zurich or ESPN or anyone else...or I wouldn't watch....and Duke would not beat Kentucky by dozens unless you want to increase the conspiracy....nor would Virginia lose to a 16 seed....

Birddog
11-30-2018, 04:43 AM
I love conspiracies....they are hilarious....they have to grow like Topsy in order to keep going...more and more people have to be involved until everyone is in on it...or they end like a Ponzi scheme when there are no more suckers.....

I wonder if there are even a dozen regular forum followers that get that reference?

DixieZag
11-30-2018, 05:08 AM
I will say this...go officiate basketball games at a somewhat competitive level and then make comments on officiating...the general coaching, players and fan community have no real understanding of the rules and complexity (both game and social dynamics) of reffing

The irony of your position, paired with your sig line is just too rich, along with just hilarious gratuitous insults to the lessers.

Try owning a practice with an MRI, try being able to settle now for 90% of what one might get with far more work 6 months from now, try hiring a less reliable sub to save 25%, it's just human nature found everywhere and refs are not somehow uniquely pure in their ability to totally shut out the massive financial pressures brought to bear on tournaments and conferences. It is not like that is genius insight. Rather obvious.

And no matter who is right or wrong, insulting fellow Zags with rather mainstream takes is not called for IMO.

jazzdelmar
11-30-2018, 05:49 AM
Here


I wonder if there are even a dozen regular forum followers that get that reference?

bballbeachbum
11-30-2018, 12:02 PM
the media involvement cannot be understated either.

Duke got robbed at the end. That's the spin K sold, certainly selling to his team I'd bet, and there's this whole thread about it lol

But nothing about the foul disparity, that many of the fouls Duke ended up with were intentional, the 7-1 foul start to the 2nd half in his team's favor, again...just Barrett got fouled so Duke is actually the victim :roll:

I've enjoyed this thread...one star? lol

ProVeeZag
11-30-2018, 05:53 PM
I wonder if there are even a dozen regular forum followers that get that reference?

I had heard the reference "to grow like Topsy" during my childhood (1950's-60's), but didn't really know the background of it until I "googled" it just now. One of the side benefits of GUBoards, I have found, is frequently being exposed to unfamiliar terms, phrases, names, etc. And if you do a little digging, your horizons can "grow like Topsy".

Mantua
11-30-2018, 09:59 PM
I do. It must be an age thing.

Mantua
11-30-2018, 10:05 PM
THIS!!!!

RJ was getting flayed for his "hero ball". Koach stood up for his player. I respect that. Doesn't matter if it was true or not. He stood up for his player. We would want Coach Few to do the same for one of ours in the same circumstances.

I think there were other things he could have said to take care of RJ’s ego. I think it was a shot a Few for having the gall to beat Duke.

Whatever the reason, K put himself in an unflattering light.

I still don’t know if Rui committed a foul on that play anyway.

SunDevilGolfZag
12-01-2018, 06:02 AM
Perhaps a good training film for Koach as an example of an actual “foul” not called at the end of a game would be to watch the last play of the UW-Utah PAC-12 title football game. Blatant pass interference uncalled and actual legitimate ire by the Utah coach. (Not that I care either way; just happened to be watching).

MickMick
12-01-2018, 06:27 AM
Regardless of the varying opinions, I find this thread to be an interesting read. I value everyone's opinion. I believe we all can agree on one thing. The win over Duke is on the record books and it is very satisfying.

The legitimacy of the victory over Duke is openly recognised because Duke had a lead for about 35 seconds and were behind by double digits for the vast majority of the game. Their comeback was largely enabled because of three factors:

1) Brandon Clarke had to sit due to foul trouble for a reasonable stretch in the second half.
2) Killian Tillie was unavailable for Clarke's fore mentioned absence.
3) Duke is a great college team and they sucked it up at crunch time. GU fatigue (they played the previous night) was evident. Duke fatigue was not. Perhaps a little more conditioning is in order? Shots from tired legs hit the front of the rim. Were a bit short.

I have read several articles that have recognised that GU's win isn't that much of an "upset." For example, one article questioned if Michigan was in the same tier as Gonzaga, Duke, and Kansas. That's right. GU's win over Duke has resulted in a national media consensus that the Zags deservedly belong in tier one with the bluebloods of 2018.

This is why the Duke's coach comments about the game ending play has met with a fair amount of ridicule on social media. The court of public opinion has passed judgement. That court has also not overlooked the missed free throws by GU that would have iced the game.

jazzdelmar
12-01-2018, 06:53 AM
All good, Mick, but I wouldn’t advance 5-6 missed free throws in crunch time as a sign of Zags’ eminence.



Regardless of the varying opinions, I find this thread to be an interesting read. I value everyone's opinion. I believe we all can agree on one thing. The win over Duke is on the record books and it is very satisfying.

The legitimacy of the victory over Duke is openly recognised because Duke had a lead for about 35 seconds and were behind by double digits for the vast majority of the game. Their comeback was largely enabled because of three factors:

1) Brandon Clarke had to sit due to foul trouble for a reasonable stretch in the second half.
2) Killian Tillie was unavailable for Clarke's fore mentioned absence.
3) Duke is a great college team and they sucked it up at crunch time. GU fatigue (they played the previous night) was evident. Duke fatigue was not. Perhaps a little more conditioning is in order? Shots from tired legs hit the front of the rim. Were a bit short.

I have read several articles that have recognised that GU's win isn't that much of an "upset." For example, one article questioned if Michigan was in the same tier as Gonzaga, Duke, and Kansas. That's right. GU's win over Duke has resulted in a national media consensus that the Zags deservedly belong in tier one with the bluebloods of 2018.

This is why the Duke's coach comments about the game ending play has met with a fair amount of ridicule on social media. The court of public opinion has passed judgement. That court has also not overlooked the missed free throws by GU that would have iced the game.

Zagger
12-01-2018, 07:12 AM
http://www.fowlplaces.com/zags/BeatDook.png

willandi
12-01-2018, 07:23 AM
All good, Mick, but I wouldn’t advance 5-6 missed free throws in crunch time as a sign of Zags’ eminence.

The missed free throws were a sign of fatigue. The REST of the game was a sign of Gonzaga eminence.

DixieZag
12-01-2018, 08:14 AM
The missed free throws were a sign of fatigue. The REST of the game was a sign of Gonzaga eminence.

The Maui schedule is such that the Champ game at the time played (Noon on Maui) was set-up to have 2 exhausted teams, add to that the fact that no one got less recuperation time than GU and our tank hit empty just a bit sooner than Duke.

bartruff1
12-01-2018, 08:21 AM
Come on Dixie....you probably think Cindy cheated.....:(