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RenoZag
08-08-2018, 09:42 AM
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/24320401/ncaa-announces-new-college-basketball-policy-including-agents-players-longer-postseason-bans


Among the significant changes that were adopted by the NCAA's Board of Governors and Division I Board of Directors are allowing elite high school basketball recruits and players to be represented by agents who are certified by the NCAA while still playing; allowing players to enter the NBA draft and return to school if undrafted; introducing more rigorous certification requirements for summer basketball-related events; and longer postseason bans, head coach suspensions and increased recruiting restrictions for college coaches who break the rules.


https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/college-basketball-rules-changes-ncaa-makes-major-changes-in-wake-of-fbi-probe/


The FBI's case into college basketball brought about mounds of documents of information. Previously, the NCAA did not allow for information and findings from outside investigations at established agencies to be used in its infractions process. Effective immediately, the NCAA and its Committee on Infractions can use information obtained in other probes as a means to an end for its own investigations. This will be implemented immediately by the NCAA with the schools currently caught up in the Department of Justice's case regarding multiple schools and alleged violation of multiple federal laws.

Mr Vulture
08-08-2018, 11:17 AM
I just got done reading this article on ESPN and it really seems to be make sense. The one thing I liked the most was that if a player were to stay in school for two years, and returned to the same school, he would still get his education paid by the school (within 10yrs). What I think this does is encourage a player to stay two years unless it is clear they are a lottery type pick. That may not be what actually happens but I think it will have a good effect. A lot of the other stuff was mostly about visits and being properly represented which I have no issue with.

Pleasant Peninsula
08-08-2018, 01:11 PM
It also appears that there is a provision in the new rules that will allow a player the opportunity to enter the NBA draft and then return to college (https://twitter.com/jeffborzello/status/1027225326856953857) if they are not drafted. That's a pretty big deal.

GonzagasaurusFlex
08-08-2018, 01:56 PM
It also appears that there is a provision in the new rules that will allow a player the opportunity to enter the NBA draft and then return to college (https://twitter.com/jeffborzello/status/1027225326856953857) if they are not drafted. That's a pretty big deal.

That’s a very big deal and certainly the right thing to do. Any other college student can pursue career opportunities during the summer and then choose to return to school if nothing pans out so athletes should get same freedom. Having said that, it sure complicates recruiting.

raise the zag
08-08-2018, 03:03 PM
It also appears that there is a provision in the new rules that will allow a player the opportunity to enter the NBA draft and then return to college (https://twitter.com/jeffborzello/status/1027225326856953857) if they are not drafted. That's a pretty big deal.

Has Gonzaga ever had a player declare early and not be drafted?

I don't believe we have...curious...

thespywhozaggedme
08-08-2018, 08:17 PM
Here's my question though: what if a player declares for the draft, hires an agent, goes to the combine and then doesn't get drafted? The process takes about two months so the head coach has to fill that spot with a recruit because he can't assume that the player will not get drafted, he needs to fill his roster. So what happens if he fills that scholarship with a stud recruit and then the player who declared doesn't get drafted and then wants to come back?

ZagDad84
08-08-2018, 08:31 PM
Here's my question though: what if a player declares for the draft, hires an agent, goes to the combine and then doesn't get drafted? The process takes about two months so the head coach has to fill that spot with a recruit because he can't assume that the player will not get drafted, he needs to fill his roster. So what happens if he fills that scholarship with a stud recruit and then the player who declared doesn't get drafted and then wants to come back?

There is no obligation for the school to hold the scholarship for the student who declares for the draft. If the school does not hold the scholarship, then this forces the non-drafted student to transfer and sit out a year (unless he is a grad transfer).

This is just one of the variety of issues many of the sports writer pundits were discussing today about the rules changes.

ZagDad

GonzagasaurusFlex
08-09-2018, 02:34 AM
Here's my question though: what if a player declares for the draft, hires an agent, goes to the combine and then doesn't get drafted? The process takes about two months so the head coach has to fill that spot with a recruit because he can't assume that the player will not get drafted, he needs to fill his roster. So what happens if he fills that scholarship with a stud recruit and then the player who declared doesn't get drafted and then wants to come back?

It sure complicates recruiting.

A school may not be obliged to hold the players scholarship until he finds out if he gets drafted or not, but if they don’t and a player goes undrafted and the school then says “sorry that didn’t happen for you; we gave your schollie to someone else. Good luck to you” then what future recruit would want to go that school? Would be hard to sell the “we’re a family; we have your best interests at heart” to a recruit if you’ve done that to one of your players.

thespywhozaggedme
08-09-2018, 05:39 AM
It sure complicates recruiting.

A school may not be obliged to hold the players scholarship until he finds out if he gets drafted or not, but if they don’t and a player goes undrafted and the school then says “sorry that didn’t happen for you; we gave your schollie to someone else. Good luck to you” then what future recruit would want to go that school? Would be hard to sell the “we’re a family; we have your best interests at heart” to a recruit if you’ve done that to one of your players.

Interesting perspective, I thought of the exact opposite scenario: Stud player declares for the draft, hires an agent, goes to the combine and unfortunately didn't get drafted. This whole process takes over 2 months so obviously a coach can't wait in limbo, he needs to fill that roster spot, so he gives the schollie to a stud recruit. Well, unfortunately, the player that declared didn't get drafted and he was a main piece to his college team, so the coach says to the prize recruit, "Sorry, but I'm gonna have to pull your offer, Player X is coming back and he needs his scholarship back". I think my scenario is much more likely to put off recruits than yours because it's really happening to them, not someone else. But either way this doesn't seem like it was well thought out at all and really opens up a can of worms.

TexasZagFan
08-09-2018, 06:20 AM
Interesting perspective, I thought of the exact opposite scenario: Stud player declares for the draft, hires an agent, goes to the combine and unfortunately didn't get drafted. This whole process takes over 2 months so obviously a coach can't wait in limbo, he needs to fill that roster spot, so he gives the schollie to a stud recruit. Well, unfortunately, the player that declared didn't get drafted and he was a main piece to his college team, so the coach says to the prize recruit, "Sorry, but I'm gonna have to pull your offer, Player X is coming back and he needs his scholarship back". I think my scenario is much more likely to put off recruits than yours because it's really happening to them, not someone else. But either way this doesn't seem like it was well thought out at all and really opens up a can of worms.

Yes, there are exceptions to every rule. In the case of Gonzaga, look at the players who have played, or on our roster now. Most of them have come in on a "3 year plan", Rui & Ayayi immediately come to mind, as well as Zach (who is entering his 3rd year in the program). It's been well established that a redshirt year at GU is much more than just a place to hang out for a year: the training they go through under Coach Knight to build and "retrain" their bodies, as well as practicing daily against high level competition.

What you describe could be a problem for the Dukes and Kentuckys of the world, but I'm not losing any sleep that this could happen to GU.

ETA: I also think that Zach Collins will be our only one and done for the forseeable future. The game he had against South Carolina was the launching pad that shot him into the NBA draft, as was the game Domas had against Utah. Marvelous performances on the biggest stages get peoples' attention. Barring injury, both will have long, productive careers in the NBA.

thespywhozaggedme
08-09-2018, 06:43 AM
Yes, there are exceptions to every rule. In the case of Gonzaga, look at the players who have played, or on our roster now. Most of them have come in on a "3 year plan", Rui & Ayayi immediately come to mind, as well as Zach (who is entering his 3rd year in the program). It's been well established that a redshirt year at GU is much more than just a place to hang out for a year: the training they go through under Coach Knight to build and "retrain" their bodies, as well as practicing daily against high level competition.

What you describe could be a problem for the Dukes and Kentuckys of the world, but I'm not losing any sleep that this could happen to GU.

ETA: I also think that Zach Collins will be our only one and done for the forseeable future. The game he had against South Carolina was the launching pad that shot him into the NBA draft, as was the game Domas had against Utah. Marvelous performances on the biggest stages get peoples' attention. Barring injury, both will have long, productive careers in the NBA.

I dunno, if Watson really is a 6'9 sf now and is athletic as we keep hearing he might be our 2nd. He's most likely gonna start right off the bat, so 15/6 isn't unrealistic numbers for him and playing on a high profile team will get him noticed.

ZagzKrak
08-09-2018, 06:50 AM
could this change the face of recruiting? The prime signing period will come after the draft for the top players? It will be interesting to see how it plays out. With there being no penalty for staying in the draft then any player who has a good year or strong showing in March is going to throw their name in hat.

willandi
08-09-2018, 07:27 AM
could this change the face of recruiting? The prime signing period will come after the draft for the top players? It will be interesting to see how it plays out. With there being no penalty for staying in the draft then any player who has a good year or strong showing in March is going to throw their name in hat.

I expect that within a year or two, the NCAA will be forced to add an addendum that allows any player that loses his scholarship and wants to return, only to find his slot filled, to be able to go to any school without having to sit out the current mandatory year.

GonzagasaurusFlex
08-09-2018, 08:18 AM
Interesting perspective, I thought of the exact opposite scenario: Stud player declares for the draft, hires an agent, goes to the combine and unfortunately didn't get drafted. This whole process takes over 2 months so obviously a coach can't wait in limbo, he needs to fill that roster spot, so he gives the schollie to a stud recruit. Well, unfortunately, the player that declared didn't get drafted and he was a main piece to his college team, so the coach says to the prize recruit, "Sorry, but I'm gonna have to pull your offer, Player X is coming back and he needs his scholarship back". I think my scenario is much more likely to put off recruits than yours because it's really happening to them, not someone else. But either way this doesn't seem like it was well thought out at all and really opens up a can of worms.

Doesn’t the school have a legal obligation to honor the scholarship offered to an incoming player as opposed to the veteran player who if he declares for draft does so knowing he could lose his scholarship?

Pleasant Peninsula
08-09-2018, 08:34 AM
Doesn’t the school have a legal obligation to honor the scholarship offered to an incoming player as opposed to the veteran player who if he declares for draft does so knowing he could lose his scholarship?

How often, if ever, as Gonzaga had ALL their scholarships spoken for by July 1 of a given year? Don't they still have one sitting around for next year?

Robzagnut
08-09-2018, 08:52 AM
I expect that within a year or two, the NCAA will be forced to add an addendum that allows any player that loses his scholarship and wants to return, only to find his slot filled, to be able to go to any school without having to sit out the current mandatory year.

I don't see this happening at all. Most teams have at least 1, possibly 2 open spots available as coaches always seem to want to have an extra opening in their back pocket and multiple players leaving early or transferring. For example, how times did/will Jeremy Jones get offered the extra GU scholarship?

thespywhozaggedme
08-09-2018, 10:17 AM
Doesn’t the school have a legal obligation to honor the scholarship offered to an incoming player as opposed to the veteran player who if he declares for draft does so knowing he could lose his scholarship?

Nope, not until the schollie is signed and even then the school can play hardball, i.e. tell the kid he's gonna redshirt or be glued to the bench. All in all the NCAA botched this one as
usual.

amaronizag
08-09-2018, 10:20 AM
I sort of feel like this is a non-fix for something that isn't really broke. Maybe the fix creates as many problems, or is worse than the existing situation. I'm not convinced. Here are some ideas to think about.

1) forget the NBA minor league concept that will diminish college basketball talent.
2) let kids pass on college and go straight to the NBA.
3) make a two year college rule. Sophomores or older can kids test the NBA waters without an agent and return to school if they don't generate enough interest.
4) allow HS kids to sign a binding letter of intent up until the NBA draft
5) have the NBA draft the weekend after the last NCAA basketball college has its final exams so coaches know who is gone ASAP
6) after the draft, open a 20 day window for grad transfers only
7) after the 20 day window for grad transfers to make their moves, open a 20 day window for HS kids who haven't signed yet (I doubt there will be any left who haven't signed for fall quarter).
8) after the 20 day window for HS kids, open a 20 day window for kids who signed an agent but didn't make the NBA cut to become eligible for any school to pick them up. The penalty for saying they are leaving and signing an agent is they can get recruited over and may have go elsewhere to find a scholarship. Most will elect to play in Europe as they currently do, but they could also stay another year in college to improve their NBA stock. This might also improve the NCAA talent pool a little.

Just ideas to consider.

dan71w
08-09-2018, 10:48 AM
I really do not see how this will fix anything. Sure it gives the student "athletes" more options. I personally think we should be encouraging these kids to stay in school for a full degree 3-4 year turn around. These kids who won the genetic lottery are given huge opportunities with chances to earn incomes the average person just has no chance for. These kids are given scholarships, and other amnesties for there genetic BB skill.
I feel if the NBA is your goal,,,,go there. if your going for a education, then earn that scholarship other students would die for. these kids that are 1-2 and gone do not deserve the money spent on them when that money could be used for other student needs. these rule changes looks more like an encouragement for them to leave early.

ZagaholicPodcast
08-09-2018, 11:27 AM
I really do not see how this will fix anything. Sure it gives the student "athletes" more options. I personally think we should be encouraging these kids to stay in school for a full degree 3-4 year turn around. These kids who won the genetic lottery are given huge opportunities with chances to earn incomes the average person just has no chance for. These kids are given scholarships, and other amnesties for there genetic BB skill.
I feel if the NBA is your goal,,,,go there. if your going for a education, then earn that scholarship other students would die for. these kids that are 1-2 and gone do not deserve the money spent on them when that money could be used for other student needs. these rule changes looks more like an encouragement for them to leave early.

1. I don't think there should be a blanket solution for players. Having some stay would cost them valuable resources, or at least expose them to varying levels of risk against that accumulation. You only have a limited time to play. Even after your game goes, you can get an education. Telling kids to stay out of some dogmatic desire, and neglecting their specific situation is harmful.

2. Per your second bolded part they absolutely deserve everything they get. Without football, the money in college sports is significantly lower, but there are plenty of programs where basketball is successful. No other student needs should have access to those athletic funds, unless there is an agreement between the school and those who booster it. Otherwise, those entities with needs should learn to raise money.

ZagDad84
08-09-2018, 01:55 PM
Keep in mind that the NBA has not adopted any revisions to their rules and regulations, so the one and done rule is still in effect. With the age rule in effect, all of the NCAA rules changes dealing with HS players goes no where if or until the NBA removes their minimum age rule.

These rule changes are a stop-gap measure that in effect will have minimal impact on the real issues at hand. These are window dressings in an attempt to show some desire to comply with the Rice Commission recommendations. When the NCAA refuses to work with all of the entities involved in the process (NBA, Shoe Companies, NCAA Coaches, etc.) you know that the they are not serious in addressing the issues.

ZagDad

willandi
08-09-2018, 02:23 PM
Keep in mind that the NBA has not adopted any revisions to their rules and regulations, so the one and done rule is still in effect. With the age rule in effect, all of the NCAA rules changes dealing with HS players goes no where if or until the NBA removes their minimum age rule.

These rule changes are a stop-gap measure that in effect will have minimal impact on the real issues at hand. These are window dressings in an attempt to show some desire to comply with the Rice Commission recommendations. When the NCAA refuses to work with all of the entities involved in the process (NBA, Shoe Companies, NCAA Coaches, etc.) you know that the they are not serious in addressing the issues.

ZagDad

Make the scholarship a contract and see if the NBA will challenge the contract in court.

ZagDad84
08-09-2018, 03:52 PM
Make the scholarship a contract and see if the NBA will challenge the contract in court.

Why would just the NBA challenge the "contract". Why wouldn't the student also challenge the validity of the "contract" since it would be the student who would be missing out on potentially substantial compensation?

ZagDad

TexasZagFan
08-09-2018, 04:04 PM
I sort of feel like this is a non-fix for something that isn't really broke. Maybe the fix creates as many problems, or is worse than the existing situation. I'm not convinced. Here are some ideas to think about.

1) forget the NBA minor league concept that will diminish college basketball talent.
2) let kids pass on college and go straight to the NBA.
3) make a two year college rule. Sophomores or older can kids test the NBA waters without an agent and return to school if they don't generate enough interest.
4) allow HS kids to sign a binding letter of intent up until the NBA draft
5) have the NBA draft the weekend after the last NCAA basketball college has its final exams so coaches know who is gone ASAP
6) after the draft, open a 20 day window for grad transfers only
7) after the 20 day window for grad transfers to make their moves, open a 20 day window for HS kids who haven't signed yet (I doubt there will be any left who haven't signed for fall quarter).
8) after the 20 day window for HS kids, open a 20 day window for kids who signed an agent but didn't make the NBA cut to become eligible for any school to pick them up. The penalty for saying they are leaving and signing an agent is they can get recruited over and may have go elsewhere to find a scholarship. Most will elect to play in Europe as they currently do, but they could also stay another year in college to improve their NBA stock. This might also improve the NCAA talent pool a little.

Just ideas to consider.

It's obvious to me you were sipping a fine wine (or two) while assembling these ideas.

O/T, I discovered a very nice winery in Oceanside CA during our recently concluded vacation: Holme Estate Cellars. They had 3 very nice Shiraz vintages, each year had its own unique flavor. Bought a half case, justified it to my wife on the basis of spreading the shipping costs...of course, she didn't buy it. lol

We're in the midst of a major remodeling of our house, first is the kitchen. Her gift to me was a 46 bottle wine cooler, with a 12 bottle wine rack about the refrigerator. I'll go back to drinking wine when the temps move below 90. For now, it's water and an occasional diet Coke.

Sorry for the thread hijack, everybody. Carry on.

willandi
08-09-2018, 06:10 PM
Why would just the NBA challenge the "contract". Why wouldn't the student also challenge the validity of the "contract" since it would be the student who would be missing out on potentially substantial compensation?

ZagDad

I can't help you if you are one of those that believe a contract has no meaning.

ZagDad84
08-09-2018, 07:08 PM
I can't help you if you are one of those that believe a contract has no meaning.

Where did I ever say I did not believe in a contract? I sign them every week and I certainly hope they are enforceable.

Who has the most to lose if you make a scholarship a contract; the student who signs the contract or the NBA? The NBA just has to wait until the contract expires (end of the year). The student, who is bound to the school, would be the one who could lose out on millions of $$.

Once again, who would be more likely to challenge the validity of a contract, the student who could be out millions or the NBA who is out some time?

ZagDad

Zagger
08-10-2018, 03:00 AM
The draft rule change sounds good for the student and good for the NBA. It could be good or bad for the school depending on how well a program can plan around a player that bolts for the draft. I imagine that schools who traditionally get the cream of the crop on recruits might lose some recruits to schools like GU who may be more likely to want that player back if they're not drafted. As a college prospect looking at scholarship offers it may make them think a bit harder about going to a school that would retain room for them if they make a failed attempt at the NBA - as opposed to a school who can more easily recruit and fill their position/skills/etc. If that is a reasonable assumption, in a small way the rule change may help spread talent a bit further amongst schools.

ZagaholicPodcast
08-10-2018, 05:07 AM
Make the scholarship a contract and see if the NBA will challenge the contract in court.

Naw. That would actually make things worse for the NCAA. They are already withholding certain levels of compensation in the name of "amateurism", but making insane amounts of money on the backs of those "amateurs". You make the terms of participation even more stringent, and you'll have a completely challenged model. It's probably already going to end up that way, but this would expedite the process.

CDC84
08-10-2018, 12:27 PM
http://www.sportingnews.com/us/ncaa-basketball/news/ncaa-college-basketball-reform-rice-commission-fbi-no-real-change-agents-tournaments/u4yg8lstds2kzngk1gicdbwc