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Zagdawg
05-29-2018, 10:47 AM
Some road video of our guy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MewhjV8Ir4&feature=youtu.be

caldwellzag
05-29-2018, 12:28 PM
Some road video of our guy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MewhjV8Ir4&feature=youtu.be

Thanks for sharing, some good highlights of Ravet's in there. Playing against some of the top comp in high school and he is holding his own on the UAA circuit.

SLOZag
05-29-2018, 12:41 PM
For ANYONE who has suffered through the "expert opinions" on this board criticizing Brock's "inability to drive, his "unconventional jumper," or his "step-back that won't work with bigger, more athletic defenders," watch this video. Do it NOW!

If your reaction is anything like mine, it will be a cross between elation and joy for our future with Brock, and awe that so many negative and unfounded anti-Brock opinions got so much traction on this Board simply because they were repeated over ... and over ... and over again!

This all brings to mind a variation on the old saw: "Who you gonna believe -- my insistent negativity repeated in post after post on this Board because I'm convinced my BB chops are tops (even though my opinions are based on little or no personal observation of Brock), or your lying eyes (and ears, if you are gonna trust Brock's "supposedly elite" teammates)?"

thespywhozaggedme
05-29-2018, 01:35 PM
Some road video of our guy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MewhjV8Ir4&feature=youtu.be

I just watched the whole thing, thanks for sharing. If Jazz and Coach Crazy watch it and get to the part where all of the players say that Brock is hands down the best shooter on the team, they'll stick their fingers in their ears and go, "lalalala, I can't hear you." lol Their complaint has been that he plays inferior comp in high school (which he does) but he's tearing it up against top AAU competition. He's going to be so good, it's crazy!

TexasZagFan
05-29-2018, 02:01 PM
I just watched the whole thing, thanks for sharing. If Jazz and Coach Crazy watch it and get to the part where all of the players say that Brock is hands down the best shooter on the team, they'll stick their fingers in their ears and go, "lalalala, I can't hear you." lol Their complaint has been that he plays inferior comp in high school (which he does) but he's tearing it up against top AAU competition. He's going to be so good, it's crazy!

You know there's a possibility the video has been "doctored." lol

thespywhozaggedme
05-29-2018, 02:41 PM
You know there's a possibility the video has been "doctored." lol

What do you mean? Seriously? You think the words "Brock" were dubbed over the players mouths when asked who the best shooter on the team was? lol

Bouldin4Prez
05-29-2018, 02:51 PM
What do you mean? Seriously? You think the words "Brock" were dubbed over the players mouths when asked who the best shooter on the team was? lol

I think he was being sarcastic but I could be wrong.

jazzdelmar
05-29-2018, 03:06 PM
I just watched the whole thing, thanks for sharing. If Jazz and Coach Crazy watch it and get to the part where all of the players say that Brock is hands down the best shooter on the team, they'll stick their fingers in their ears and go, "lalalala, I can't hear you." lol Their complaint has been that he plays inferior comp in high school (which he does) but he's tearing it up against top AAU competition. He's going to be so good, it's crazy!

Still not convinced. Short, slow, set shooter. Zags are elite now; what other elite would have offered?

Zagdawg
05-29-2018, 03:16 PM
Don't bite.......its not worth it.

jazzdelmar
05-29-2018, 03:24 PM
Don't bite.......its not worth it.

Good advice.

MileHigh
05-29-2018, 04:30 PM
but he's tearing it up against top AAU competition.

All the stats from all the UAA games are on their website. His numbers are solid, but not spectacular.
averaging 12 pts, 3 assists, shooting 35% from beyond the arc

JAGzag
05-29-2018, 04:46 PM
Good advice.

Wow. Great video, thanks for sharing. Of course it’s a produced video with highlights but those clips of Brock look pretty damn good. And there’s a reason he was highlighted so often! Think we got a good one.

#1 looked pretty damn good, too!

doctorzag
05-29-2018, 04:54 PM
Still not convinced. Short, slow, set shooter. Zags are elite now; what other elite would have offered?

Either you are being sarcastic or you need to get your eyes checked. Brock is not slow,short or a set shooter. He is an elite shooter and passer with a full toolbox of weapons. Long range step-backs that are unblockable, mid-range pullups, floaters, drives etc. Opponents can't play off him or he'll drill it. Play him too tight and he'll just drive it by you.

jazzdelmar
05-29-2018, 06:34 PM
Either you are being sarcastic or you need to get your eyes checked. Brock is not slow,short or a set shooter. He is an elite shooter and passer with a full toolbox of weapons. Long range step-backs that are unblockable, mid-range pullups, floaters, drives etc. Opponents can't play off him or he'll drill it. Play him too tight and he'll just drive it by you.

Opthamologist?

maynard g krebs
05-29-2018, 07:04 PM
Dickau II.

Remember, Dan was told by a number of experts to sign w/ a mid major school out of hs because he was too small and too slow for high major competition. He wanted to try to play at the highest level possible (that's a paraphrased quote), so he signed w/ UW.

willandi
05-29-2018, 08:11 PM
Still not convinced. Short, slow, set shooter. Zags are elite now; what other elite would have offered?


Good advice.

I'll bite!

Now you are questioning the skills of the coaching staff. I'm not sure that you are a Zag fan.

Not because you question the staff, by itself, but in conjunction with your other statements, I am not sure.

What are your coaching credentials?

thespywhozaggedme
05-29-2018, 08:39 PM
Still not convinced. Short, slow, set shooter. Zags are elite now; what other elite would have offered?

I'll give you credit, you are willing to die on that hill. Proof be damned, nothing is going to change your mind and make you admit that you were wrong. LOL

hooter73
05-29-2018, 08:58 PM
Just out of curiosity, who else did offer?

Zagdawg
05-29-2018, 09:12 PM
We offered and he accepted early as Gonzaga was his dream school -- others showing interest were Oregon State and Portland.

SLOZag
05-29-2018, 09:13 PM
What are your coaching credentials?

Crickets.

raise the zag
05-29-2018, 09:14 PM
Big proponent of Brock, but he won't be allowed to shoot those step back 3's til he's at least hit a 1000 of those in practice and/or til he's a Junior and proven he can hit system shots.

Btw, I love those shots, just sharing the likely truth...temper yourselves...as good as Brock is and can be, he will have to find other ways to contribute than step back jumpers James Harden attempts, or seen in AAU mix tapes.

Markburn1
05-29-2018, 09:23 PM
I'll bite!

Now you are questioning the skills of the coaching staff. I'm not sure that you are a Zag fan.

Not because you question the staff, by itself, but in conjunction with your other statements, I am not sure.

What are your coaching credentials?

I didn't see anyone question the skills of the coaching staff.

All coaching staffs make mistakes, even Gonzaga's.

I don't know if this kid will be a big contributor or not.

This video is inconclusive, at best.

As MileHigh points out, his AAU numbers aren't elite.

Comparing him to Dickau is really reaching.

willandi
05-29-2018, 09:31 PM
I didn't see anyone question the skills of the coaching staff.

All coaching staffs make mistakes, even Gonzaga's.

I don't know if this kid will be a big contributor or not.

This video is inconclusive, at best.

As MileHigh points out, his AAU numbers aren't elite.

Comparing him to Dickau is really reaching.

Well, I didn't see it...I just read it, that Jazz is not convinced, despite most others being so.

I haven't watched any of the videos. I trust that THIS elite coaching staff has a clue as to what they are doing.

Nobody knows anything about any athlete, from day to day even when they have 2-3 years in the program. I do trust this ELITE coaching staff.

I don't know Jazz, but he has consistently been a negative Nellie. Some say hyperbole, some say sarcasm, but I don't know him. I take him at his written word.

Murphy outgo lifer
05-29-2018, 09:57 PM
My friend coaches against Brock in his high school league.

His observations:

"Brock offensively is what GU is looking for these days"

"On defense Brock is always put on their worst offensive player."

TexasZagFan
05-30-2018, 04:53 AM
I think he was being sarcastic but I could be wrong.

Sarcasm? Moi?

I know that my posting activity has dropped off, but there should have been no question I was speaking facetiously. lol

thespywhozaggedme
05-30-2018, 05:44 AM
I didn't see anyone question the skills of the coaching staff.

All coaching staffs make mistakes, even Gonzaga's.

I don't know if this kid will be a big contributor or not.

This video is inconclusive, at best.

As MileHigh points out, his AAU numbers aren't elite.

Comparing him to Dickau is really reaching.


How is this not questioning the coaching staff:

Still not convinced. Short, slow, set shooter. Zags are elite now; what other elite would have offered?

it's literally implying that they made a mistake in offering him and don't know what they're doing as far as player evaluation.

thespywhozaggedme
05-30-2018, 05:45 AM
Sarcasm? Moi?

I know that my posting activity has dropped off, but there should have been no question I was speaking facetiously. lol

Man, I'm getting old, I need to get my sarcasm detector re-calibrated. lol

Coach Crazy
05-30-2018, 07:15 AM
My friend coaches against Brock in his high school league.

His observations:

"Brock offensively is what GU is looking for these days"

"On defense Brock is always put on their worst offensive player."

Number 2 isn't surprising if you watch the tape.

Number 1 is an interesting comment, because in 2019 they are getting Brock, and then 2020 they are getting what may end up being a Top 20/10 player. One that is already far advanced as an overall player. So, I don't know how to reconcile that first statement with both the 2020 recruiting efforts and the transfer targets they have. It feels more like a project/diamond in the rough kid that they are hoping turns into something, at very little cost. The latter would be the most understandable.

Markburn1
05-30-2018, 07:20 AM
How is this not questioning the coaching staff:

Still not convinced. Short, slow, set shooter. Zags are elite now; what other elite would have offered?

it's literally implying that they made a mistake in offering him and don't know what they're doing as far as player evaluation.

The first part of your last sentence is correct. The second part was never the issue.

All coaching staffs make mistakes. Edi, Keita, Monninghoff, Alberts, Edwards. This coaching staff makes very few. That is why they have been able to build the program to where it is today. They aren't infallible. Their evaluation of talent is very good and their evaluation of character is nearly perfect. Questioning a recruit is not questioning their overall skill at putting together a team.

Again, I don't know if Brock is going to be a major contributor or not. Time will tell. Thinking that this video is the definitive answer is delusional.

Why is it that any legitimate criticism of a player's basketball skills is cause for outrage? I don't get it.

Markburn1
05-30-2018, 07:34 AM
As far as I can tell, the point of contention is the term "elite".

Gonzaga has reached the point where they should be recruiting players that exceed the talent level of the current roster. That is a difficult task because the bar has raised dramatically over the last three to four years. Cute stories of players with limited skills blossoming in their 3rd or 4th years are not what they are looking for now.

Just because Gonzaga offers someone, it doesn't make them automatically elite. There should be cautious optimism that that is the case. But, not being able to question elite status is absurd.

willandi
05-30-2018, 07:35 AM
The first part of your last sentence is correct. The second part was never the issue.

All coaching staffs make mistakes. Edi, Keita, Monninghoff, Alberts, Edwards. This coaching staff makes very few. That is why they have been able to build the program to where it is today. They aren't infallible. Their evaluation of talent is very good and their evaluation of character is nearly perfect. Questioning a recruit is not questioning their overall skill at putting together a team.

Again, I don't know if Brock is going to be a major contributor or not. Time will tell. Thinking that this video is the definitive answer is delusional.

Why is it that any legitimate criticism of a player's basketball skills is cause for outrage? I don't get it.

Why do you think this is legitimate criticism?

Most of the viewers of the video (I still have not watched it) and those that have seen Brock live believe that he will be a good, if not great, player for the zags. Someone who watched the video but has not seen him play, has not answered the question about coaching experience, has shown an east coast bias and a tendency to downplay small school players from Washington state, has made remarks that suggest he disagrees with the coaching staff and the majority of other posters.

I get that it is an opinion and is his right. To call him on it is the right of the rest of us. I know that HS experience does not always translate to D1 production especially at an elite level, but the same could have been said about Ammo, Dickau, Pendo and the list goes on.

Why do you feel the need to defend Jazz?

Coach Crazy
05-30-2018, 07:50 AM
The first part of your last sentence is correct. The second part was never the issue.

All coaching staffs make mistakes. Edi, Keita, Monninghoff, Alberts, Edwards. This coaching staff makes very few. That is why they have been able to build the program to where it is today. They aren't infallible. Their evaluation of talent is very good and their evaluation of character is nearly perfect. Questioning a recruit is not questioning their overall skill at putting together a team.

Again, I don't know if Brock is going to be a major contributor or not. Time will tell. Thinking that this video is the definitive answer is delusional.

Why is it that any legitimate criticism of a player's basketball skills is cause for outrage? I don't get it.

Bravo.

ZagzKrak
05-30-2018, 07:56 AM
As far as I can tell, the point of contention is the term "elite".

I'm sure everyone has their own idea of what makes a player "Elite".....I would say any player that gets into the Top 100 in the country for his class should be considered elite..Brock is in the 90's right now so I believe he has earned that title for now.

Coach Crazy
05-30-2018, 07:58 AM
Why do you think this is legitimate criticism?

Most of the viewers of the video (I still have not watched it) and those that have seen Brock live believe that he will be a good, if not great, player for the zags. Someone who watched the video but has not seen him play, has not answered the question about coaching experience, has shown an east coast bias and a tendency to downplay small school players from Washington state, has made remarks that suggest he disagrees with the coaching staff and the majority of other posters.

I get that it is an opinion and is his right. To call him on it is the right of the rest of us. I know that HS experience does not always translate to D1 production especially at an elite level, but the same could have been said about Ammo, Dickau, Pendo and the list goes on.

Why do you feel the need to defend Jazz?

You're asking him to justify an appeal to authority argument. There are personnel that have never coached (scouts, front office etc.) that make player personnel decisions and/or evaluations. You also don't have to be any of those to learn the craft of player evaluation. It's not some mystical force that is bestowed upon you when you get on a staff or into a front office. It's something you can learn to do, and hone. When people pass on a substantive retort and start using appeal to authority arguments, it's a good sign they don't have the expertise to do so (provide a substantive retort), but want to justify their own perception(s). Funny that so many people on here tout education as this papal bull war cry, yet there are some that prefer approaches that would not pass during one's education.

Markburn1
05-30-2018, 08:01 AM
Why do you think this is legitimate criticism?

Most of the viewers of the video (I still have not watched it) and those that have seen Brock live believe that he will be a good, if not great, player for the zags. Someone who watched the video but has not seen him play, has not answered the question about coaching experience, has shown an east coast bias and a tendency to downplay small school players from Washington state, has made remarks that suggest he disagrees with the coaching staff and the majority of other posters.

I get that it is an opinion and is his right. To call him on it is the right of the rest of us. I know that HS experience does not always translate to D1 production especially at an elite level, but the same could have been said about Ammo, Dickau, Pendo and the list goes on.

Why do you feel the need to defend Jazz?

Jazz is a big boy. He can defend himself.

The video is fifteen minutes long. Brock shows up in about a half dozen plays. Using that video to evaluate a player is crazy.

I understand enthusiasm. I don't understand the need to anoint a player with elite status based on videos like that.

Your challenge about coaching experience is a non starter. There are a few posters here that do have coaching experience and they are generally the most thoughtful and cautious when it comes to offering their views on basketball skills. Scroll back through and you will find those cautious opinions.

I don't know how Brock will turn out. I don't have nearly enough info to make that judgement. But, that doesn't mean there isn't enough video of the right kind out there. I haven't taken the time to find it. And I haven't spoken with enough coaches to get legitimate evaluations from them. Perhaps others have.

titopoet
05-30-2018, 08:24 AM
Bravo.

The question is not whether he will be a great player and be an AA, but given what we know, the question is does he deserve an offer to GU. Clearly, he does if you base it on his performance and potential to be a contributor at the next level. He is holding his own against some of the best players in his class so he will be able to hold his own at GU. Will he be the next Kevin Pangos? Who knows, but can he play and contribute at the D1 level... no question. The staff had the luxury to see him early against their own players and offered so they believe he deserved an offer. He already proved them right in performing well with the Washington Supreme.

Legitimate criticism is more about what he needs to work on to be a major contributor at the next level. Like working on his quickness, euro step and etc. Saying he is to slow, short (since when is 6'1" too short for college ball) and a too much a set shooter and that we can recruit better because we are "elite" whatever that means is on the border of fan who thinks a good shot is one that goes in and bad shot is one that clunks out or your old uncle who drinks his beer and yells at Big Screen TV that he could have done a better job of coaching than Brad Stevens in leading the Boston over the Cavs if only they listen to him and play the 3-2 zone with a full court press like West Virgina aginst Lebron James.

willandi
05-30-2018, 08:49 AM
You're asking him to justify an appeal to authority argument. There are personnel that have never coached (scouts, front office etc.) that make player personnel decisions and/or evaluations. You also don't have to be any of those to learn the craft of player evaluation. It's not some mystical force that is bestowed upon you when you get on a staff or into a front office. It's something you can learn to do, and hone. When people pass on a substantive retort and start using appeal to authority arguments, it's a good sign they don't have the expertise to do so (provide a substantive retort), but want to justify their own perception(s). Funny that so many people on here tout education as this papal bull war cry, yet there are some that prefer approaches that would not pass during one's education.

So what you are saying is that YOUR claim to understanding is no better than any of the rest of us can have. Thank you.

Coach Crazy
05-30-2018, 09:57 AM
So what you are saying is that YOUR claim to understanding is no better than any of the rest of us can have. Thank you.

What I am saying is: if you don't like the critical thought that someone puts forth, have a substantive rebuttal.

zaguarxj
05-30-2018, 10:04 AM
Number 2 isn't surprising if you watch the tape.


I watched the video at the beginning of this thread and it didn't show Brock's team on defense at all. Are you talking about another "tape?" If so, please post links.

Coach Crazy
05-30-2018, 10:38 AM
I watched the video at the beginning of this thread and it didn't show Brock's team on defense at all. Are you talking about another "tape?" If so, please post links.

There are sufficient examples of Brock playing example on tape. I'm not going to rustle them up for you. You are free to find them. Brock Ravet has been a discussion for a bit now. I didn't mean this last tape, meant that as more an overall.

Zagceo
05-30-2018, 10:40 AM
hope coaches aren't being influenced by the Joe Harris miss

willandi
05-30-2018, 10:59 AM
hope coaches aren't being influenced by the Joe Harris miss

I thought it was he was here during a summer camp and played head to head with the Zags current at that ime...and more than held his own.

Of course, maybe those Zags sucked, so...

willandi
05-30-2018, 11:01 AM
What I am saying is: if you don't like the critical thought that someone puts forth, have a substantive rebuttal.

You said people can learn the craft and hone it, so there are those here that know as much as you despite having never coached. It is what YOU said!

"There are personnel that have never coached (scouts, front office etc.) that make player personnel decisions and/or evaluations. You also don't have to be any of those to learn the craft of player evaluation. It's not some mystical force that is bestowed upon you when you get on a staff or into a front office. It's something you can learn to do, and hone."

maynard g krebs
05-30-2018, 11:06 AM
Comparing him to Dickau is really reaching.

I was comparing him to Dickau as a freshman at Washington (saw every home game in person and all the televised games). Dan only got 10 min a game for most of his fr year because Bob Bender thought he didn't defend well enough. It wasn't too long until Bender was fired.

Actually, Ravet is ranked higher in his class at this point than Dan was.

The comparison was AS A RECRUIT, not as a fifth year senior AA.

Also, AAU stats can be deceiving. Kids are trying to make individual names for themselves and get noticed, and team play can suffer. IMO what he was said to have done in summer scrimmages w/ Zag players is a better barometer. If I recall, that was what got him the offer. Same thing was said to have happened w/ Morrison (I know, he grew 3 inches after that).

This former JV scrub who once coached a team of fifth graders to a 2-5 record sees a kid with unique offensive gifts which can't be taught.

thebigsmoove
05-30-2018, 11:10 AM
The complaining and whining on this board about other people expressing their opinions has gotten out of hand. Forums are not intended for us all to share the same opinions. Thats just not now this works.

Coach Crazy
05-30-2018, 11:11 AM
You said people can learn the craft and hone it, so there are those here that know as much as you despite having never coached. It is what YOU said!

"There are personnel that have never coached (scouts, front office etc.) that make player personnel decisions and/or evaluations. You also don't have to be any of those to learn the craft of player evaluation. It's not some mystical force that is bestowed upon you when you get on a staff or into a front office. It's something you can learn to do, and hone."

Yes, you can. But again, it comes down to the merit of the statement. Someone that has been able accomplish that doesn't tend to resort to appeal to authority arguments, though. If you believe, for instance, that Brock is an elite defender, I would want to hear from a statistical and technical perspective why someone thought that. Someone who can scout tape would either not say that (because it would be irreconcilable) or at least list the reasons why.

There are those on this board who's insight I respect. I don't care if they have coached or not. Billy Gillespie was achieved far more success than I ever will, but I would coach circles around him. He'd be out of breath from watching his team get run, and need an IV to replenish his fluids.

If people just want to be "trust the staff" types, that's fine. Those of us that do trust this staff and also like to have a critical/nuanced perspective aren't trying to oust the staff or say they don't know what they are doing. When you take into consideration how many players that work out that a coaching staff doesn't choose to recruit, or recruits that end of transferring/not contributing the way hoped for...every coach misses. And misses a lot. Perfection is a ridiculous burden.

willandi
05-30-2018, 11:39 AM
Yes, you can. But again, it comes down to the merit of the statement. Someone that has been able accomplish that doesn't tend to resort to appeal to authority arguments, though. If you believe, for instance, that Brock is an elite defender, I would want to hear from a statistical and technical perspective why someone thought that. Someone who can scout tape would either not say that (because it would be irreconcilable) or at least list the reasons why.

There are those on this board who's insight I respect. I don't care if they have coached or not. Billy Gillespie was achieved far more success than I ever will, but I would coach circles around him. He'd be out of breath from watching his team get run, and need an IV to replenish his fluids.

If people just want to be "trust the staff" types, that's fine. Those of us that do trust this staff and also like to have a critical/nuanced perspective aren't trying to oust the staff or say they don't know what they are doing. When you take into consideration how many players that work out that a coaching staff doesn't choose to recruit, or recruits that end of transferring/not contributing the way hoped for...every coach misses. And misses a lot. Perfection is a ridiculous burden.

I haven't said anything about Brock, at all.

I have said that he played scrimmages against Zags and based on that the coaches offered.

There are those that watch the videos and don't see it. There are those that have watched him in person, including one former Zag point guard, that believe him to be elite.

There are those that don't like HIS version of elite and have discounted the rankings opinion as well.

I don't know most of you on this forum. I can only go by what you write. When you write something and then try to change the meaning, it doesn't change what you wrote.

There IS too much bickering about opinions. Why not rely on those that have seen the young man play, both members of this forum AND the coaching staff. If you can't see enough on the videos, trust those that have seen him, don't discount him because of the videos.

JPtheBeasta
05-30-2018, 12:23 PM
If you believe, for instance, that Brock is an elite defender, I would want to hear from a statistical and technical perspective why someone thought that.

You can probably skip that part. I don't think anyone expects him to be Aaron Craft. If you're comments about him not being elite is specifically because of his defense, you will have agreement from a lot, if not a large majority, of people here


Billy Gillespie was achieved far more success than I ever will, but I would coach circles around him. He'd be out of breath from watching his team get run, and need an IV to replenish his fluids.


You should probably put this at the top of every post as a sort of warning so that people can read it and decide if they want to read the rest.

thebigsmoove
05-30-2018, 01:15 PM
There IS too much bickering about opinions. Why not rely on those that have seen the young man play, both members of this forum AND the coaching staff. If you can't see enough on the videos, trust those that have seen him, don't discount him because of the videos.

Please re-read your post and notice the logical fallacy. This is precisely what you and others have been doing here. Arguing that its not ok for Coach, Markburn, or Jazz to have a differing opinion than you.

willandi
05-30-2018, 01:21 PM
Please re-read your post and notice the logical fallacy. This is precisely what you and others have been doing here. Arguing that its not ok for Coach, Markburn, or Jazz to have a differing opinion than you.

Don't need to re-read it. I know what I said.

If the videos don't show you enough, why not trust those that have actually seen player X.

I never said it wasn't OK for them I was responding to what they said about me.

Where is your post to them?

JPtheBeasta
05-30-2018, 02:00 PM
Please re-read your post and notice the logical fallacy. This is precisely what you and others have been doing here. Arguing that its not ok for Coach, Markburn, or Jazz to have a differing opinion than you.

I'm with Willandi on this one. He appears to be saying that he trusts people who have actually seen Ravet play in person over people who have seen highlight videos. Furthermore, he is trusting professional talent evaluators and former college players. We trust expert opinion all of the time as a pragmatic part of life, as we cannot personally be experts in everything; it is a logical fallacy to affirm the evaluation of the staff as definitely the right one, but the odds of it being correct are much higher than a self-aggrandizing poster on a message board.

soccerdud
05-30-2018, 02:38 PM
this entire thread has been one long, slow, repetitive descent into madness. lots of talking past each other, lots of non-sequitors, and not too much useful.

will's welcome to trust the judgment of whomever he pleases. imo, he's been perfectly reasonable about his choice of authority -- can't do much better than few and co. the problem is that he treats that position like both a proof that should convince (or at least silence) others and as an argument that bears pages of repetition w/o further support. it's neither. however, it IS logically fallacious and this has been pointed out as often as he's retyped it. questions about others' expertise can be illuminating for casual readers trying to determine for themselves which posters to trust, but -- again -- doesn't directly address the matter at hand. will has repeatedly talked about judging people based on what they write. that's fine, but in situations like this i think it's more useful to judge arguments based on their merits and go from there. unfortunately, will mostly hasn't made one -- while simultaneously dismissing other (valid) arguments because he'd already judged the poster.

on the other side, i'm pretty bullish on ravet's chances of being a good player for us-- but that doesn't mean that the concerns are unfounded or can be waived away by saying "few and co liked him enough to offer". hell, i'd be shocked if few doesn't have concerns, so i don't know why we should expect fans on a message board not to. this is in no way incompatible with a scholarship offer, nor do *most* specific instances constitute "ripping", "denigrating", or a personal attack -- on either the player or the coaching staff. additionally, while there's been plenty of noise, fallacious arguments, etc on this side too-- the arguments from this camp have been, imo, overall significantly stronger and better supported. that's a bar that i'd hope will and others will attempt to meet going forward, but i'm not the first to ask for that.

and then there's the definition of elite. is it:
-- someone who we recruit?
-- someone who other top schools recruit?
-- a top 100 player in high school?
-- someone who can contribute at GU as a frosh?
-- someone who can start at GU as a frosh?
-- someone who may eventually start?
-- other?

the lack of a clear and agreed-upon definition makes arguing over the word useless. so if you wanna get anywhere, i'd recommend moving on from it.

a discussion about whether he is likely to get meaningful minutes as a freshman is both more interesting and easier to have.

ETA: if this post turns out to be a thread killer, you're all welcome.

webspinnre
05-30-2018, 02:51 PM
Welcome to the offseason and meta discussions!

cjm720
05-30-2018, 09:01 PM
What’s not to like from the video? Thanks for posting.

TexasZagFan
05-31-2018, 03:35 AM
Welcome to the offseason and meta discussions!

May be O/T, but one of the best lessons I learned at Gonzaga came from Fr. Gerry Kohls, and I think it applies to some of the bloviating and pontificating that has been heaped upon the GU Boards during the silly season:


With philosophy, it's not what you say, it's how you say it. Philosophy is nothing but a bunch of BS.

Zagceo
05-31-2018, 04:44 AM
May be O/T, but one of the best lessons I learned at Gonzaga came from Fr. Gerry Kohls, and I think it applies to some of the bloviating and pontificating that has been heaped upon the GU Boards during the silly season:

and what a bunch it covers



BS Bachelor of Science
BS Backspace
BS Bull Stuff (polite form)
BS British Standards
BS Basel-Stadt (canton postcode, Switzerland)
BS Bristol (postcode, United Kingdom)
BS Britney Spears
BS Box Score
BS Baltimore Sun (newspaper)
BS Brescia (Lombardia, Italy)
BS Bookstore
BS Back to School
BS Base Station
BS Braunschweig, Germany
BS Business Services
BS Bahamas (country code and domain code)
BS Balance Sheet
BS Blood Sugar
BS Blue Sky
BS Business System
BS Business Studies
BS Bisexual
BS Big Screen
BS Boy Scouts
BS Bible Study
BS Be Smart
BS Backside (extreme sports)
BS Boot Sector
BS Basel Stadt (Basel Town; Suisse Half Canton)
BS Bruce Springsteen
BS Berufsschule (German: vocational school)
BS Big Sister
BS Broadcasting System
BS Barbra Streisand
BS Bioshock (game)
BS Buffalo Sabres (NHL)
BS Black Sabbath (band)
BS Briggs & Stratton (Wauwatosa, WI)
BS Be Specific
BS Blacksmith (gaming, Ultima Online)
BS Big Show (WWE wrestler)
BS Big Shot
BS Back Stage
BS Big Smile (Internet chat)
BS Bad Science
BS Bronze Star
BS Back Side (skate term)
BS Brown Sugar
BS Battlestations
BS Bering Sea
BS Barber Shop
BS Boondock Saints (movie)
BS Blind Spot
BS Beauty Shop
BS Brain Stem
BS Balanced Scorecard
BS Business Segment
BS B-Spline
BS Bart Simpson
BS Billing System
BS Backstab (Starcraft game)
BS Backing Store
BS Bob Seger
BS Black Scholes (option pricing model)
BS Brothers & Sisters
BS Band Saw
BS Broken Saints (webcomic)
BS Bomb Squad
BS Blood Star (Diablo game)
BS Bus Schedule
BS Blood Stained (Everquest)
BS Bachelor of Surgery
BS Boz Scaggs
BS Bishop's Stortford (England, UK)
BS Big Smoke (gaming character, GTA:SA)
BS Blessed Sacrament
BS Bill of Sale
BS Basic Strategy (blackjack card game)
BS Beam Splitter
BS Boot Sequence
BS Boolean Search
BS Black Stallion
BS Backstroke (swimming)
BS Blown Save (baseball)
BS Broadcast Satellite
BS Breaking Strength
BS Bombardment Squadron
BS Bering Strait
BS Motor Starter (motor-driven cam type)
BS Breath Sounds
BS Belt Sander
BS Basic Software
BS Broadcasting Satellite
BS Biochemical Society (London, UK)
BS Beta Sigma (fraternity)
BS Bound States
BS Bright and Shiny (recycling)
BS Blowing Snow (weather reports)
BS BetalingsService (Danish: Payment Service)
BS Blocked Shot (basketball)
BS Butthole Surfers (band)
BS Best Speaker (Toastmasters)
BS Bow String (Runescape gaming)
BS Boundary Scan
BS Block Sorting
BS Bungie Studios (gaming company)
BS Belgisch Staatsblad (Dutch; Belgian government publication)
BS Bonus Stage (cartoon)
BS Bloom Syndrome
BS Bowel Sounds (medical)
BS Buy Stop (trading markets; stocks, bonds, commodities)
BS Breast Stroke
BS Blazin' Squad (band)
BS Burst Size
BS Bass Saxophone
BS Blue Seed (anime)
BS Back Stock
BS Bungie Software (Microsoft-owned game developer)
BS Boundary Stone (UK maps)
BS Budgetary Support
BS BellSouth Corp. (telephone company)
BS Basic Sediment
BS Binnenlandse Strijdkrachten (Dutch)
BS Battle Staff
BS Boiler, Steam
BS Brittany Spaniel
BS Ballistic Skill (gaming)
BS Bovine Scatology
BS Breaking Strain
BS Black Shot (game)
BS Body Shopping (bringing in foreign contractors to work for the US companies at lower salaries)
BS Billy Squire (rock singer)
BS Bore Sight
BS Bolivar(s) (Venezuelan currency)
BS BotServ (IRC Bot Server)
BS Bonus Stage (band)
BS Bank of Slovenia
BS Back Sight (surveying)
BS broadcast source (US DoD)
BS Bluespec (filename extension)
BS Bulk Store
BS Bellow Sealed (plumbing)
BS Broadcast Satellaview (Super Nintendo Entertainment System)
BS Betrayed Spouse
BS Bailter Space (band)
BS Birth Son (adoption)
BS Balance Shafts (Nissan)
BS Bentonite slurry (tunnel boring machines)
BS Bank of Springfield (The Simpsons)
BS Block Specification
BS Bird Screen (drawings for HVAC fan or louver accessory)
BS ##### Shield
BS Biden Shot (political slang)
BS Bipolar Signal
BS Brodosplit (Shipyard Company, Split, Croatia)
BS Basin Slope
BS Bohemia Suburbana (Guatemala rock group)
BS Blocking Series
BS Bungie Sightings (bs.bungie.org)
BS Bit Synchronizer
BS Bio-Son
BS Battle Sphere (Atari Jaguar video game)
BS Berkhouse/Snyder (music duo)
BS Bina Swadaya
BS Boston Stoker (coffee company)
BS Battle Support
BS Bi-Synchronous
BS Business Stupidity (opposite of Business Intelligence)
BS Blister Steel
BS Bjarne Stroustroup (creator of C++ language)
BS Blazing Swamp (Lineage 2 game)
BS Bis Spater (German: see you later)
BS Bitumen Solution
BS Bien-Etre Sociale (Canadian French: welfare)
BS Barfko Swill (Frank Zappa Production Company)
BS Bi-Metallic Strip
BS Bon Scot (singer)
BS Bayesian Score
BS Birchwood School (West Nyack, NY)
BS Blank Sentences
BS Bottom Sounding
BS BASIC or cyBASIC (file extension)
BS Before Stinson (How I Met Your Mother; TV series reference)
BS Black Sheep Brotherhood (gaming community)
BS Broadband Storm
BS Béton de Sable (French: Sand Concrete)
BS Behavioral Statement
BS Bike Stunt Competition
BS Brainstorm/Brainstorms/Brainstorming/Brainstormed
BS Britstorm
BS BioShelf International (Hamilton, ON, Canada)

thebigsmoove
05-31-2018, 04:55 AM
and then there's the definition of elite. is it:
-- someone who we recruit?
-- someone who other top schools recruit?
-- a top 100 player in high school?
-- someone who can contribute at GU as a frosh?
-- someone who can start at GU as a frosh?
-- someone who may eventually start?
-- other?

the lack of a clear and agreed-upon definition makes arguing over the word useless. so if you wanna get anywhere, i'd recommend moving on from it.


I consider an Elite recruit to be at the very least a McDonalds All American. Now whether a player becomes elite during their time at Gonzaga is a different story, but recruiting wise, we dont historically sign elite recruits (Zach Collins and a few transfers excluded).

zaguarxj
05-31-2018, 07:16 AM
There are sufficient examples of Brock playing example on tape. I'm not going to rustle them up for you. You are free to find them. Brock Ravet has been a discussion for a bit now. I didn't mean this last tape, meant that as more an overall.

The burden of proof is on the one who is making the claim. Without any evidence, your bluster is meaningless.

Coach Crazy
05-31-2018, 07:51 AM
The burden of proof is on the one who is making the claim. Without any evidence, your bluster is meaningless.

You're coming into the discussion very late. I'm not required to break out a cookie cutter 'sticky' for every poster that was not around for those discussions. You're free to look through the forums and observer those discussions. If not, please move on. Your approach is just cluttering the boards with unnecessary posts.

Coach Crazy
05-31-2018, 07:56 AM
I consider an Elite recruit to be at the very least a McDonalds All American. Now whether a player becomes elite during their time at Gonzaga is a different story, but recruiting wise, we dont historically sign elite recruits (Zach Collins and a few transfers excluded).

This is closer to what I would consider 'elite'. There are also different variations of 'Top 100' in the recruiting world. So, how do we determine what is a viable 'Top 100'? And what about the kids that got left off? I was one of the biggest CK critics during his recruitment, and even I thought it was an error to leave him out of that group. Not to mention the fact that would then, in a decade, have 1000 elite players? Naw. Doesn't work like that. We could also drill down a little deeper and ask if 'elite' is also a continuum? And if so, then how truly relevant is it to call a player that doesn't maintain that status on that continuum, elite? Not saying it has to go there...but sometimes it's great to get that deep to test how we really feel or think...

And after all, we love education on this board...so, the more scrutiny and rigor the better, right?

Coach Crazy
05-31-2018, 07:57 AM
this entire thread has been one long, slow, repetitive descent into madness. lots of talking past each other, lots of non-sequitors, and not too much useful.

will's welcome to trust the judgment of whomever he pleases. imo, he's been perfectly reasonable about his choice of authority -- can't do much better than few and co. the problem is that he treats that position like both a proof that should convince (or at least silence) others and as an argument that bears pages of repetition w/o further support. it's neither. however, it IS logically fallacious and this has been pointed out as often as he's retyped it. questions about others' expertise can be illuminating for casual readers trying to determine for themselves which posters to trust, but -- again -- doesn't directly address the matter at hand. will has repeatedly talked about judging people based on what they write. that's fine, but in situations like this i think it's more useful to judge arguments based on their merits and go from there. unfortunately, will mostly hasn't made one -- while simultaneously dismissing other (valid) arguments because he'd already judged the poster.

on the other side, i'm pretty bullish on ravet's chances of being a good player for us-- but that doesn't mean that the concerns are unfounded or can be waived away by saying "few and co liked him enough to offer". hell, i'd be shocked if few doesn't have concerns, so i don't know why we should expect fans on a message board not to. this is in no way incompatible with a scholarship offer, nor do *most* specific instances constitute "ripping", "denigrating", or a personal attack -- on either the player or the coaching staff. additionally, while there's been plenty of noise, fallacious arguments, etc on this side too-- the arguments from this camp have been, imo, overall significantly stronger and better supported. that's a bar that i'd hope will and others will attempt to meet going forward, but i'm not the first to ask for that.

and then there's the definition of elite. is it:
-- someone who we recruit?
-- someone who other top schools recruit?
-- a top 100 player in high school?
-- someone who can contribute at GU as a frosh?
-- someone who can start at GU as a frosh?
-- someone who may eventually start?
-- other?

the lack of a clear and agreed-upon definition makes arguing over the word useless. so if you wanna get anywhere, i'd recommend moving on from it.

a discussion about whether he is likely to get meaningful minutes as a freshman is both more interesting and easier to have.

ETA: if this post turns out to be a thread killer, you're all welcome.

If this happened at Safeco Field, the ball would be bouncing down Royal Brougham.

Robzagnut
05-31-2018, 08:38 AM
You're coming into the discussion very late. I'm not required to break out a cookie cutter 'sticky' for every poster that was not around for those discussions. You're free to look through the forums and observer those discussions. If not, please move on. Your approach is just cluttering the boards with unnecessary posts.

He has just as much right to 'clutter' this forum as you. In fact, when it comes to clutter, you're way ahead of the curve. Shouting down someone new or telling them not to post in an open forum when you're one of the worst offenders is in extremely poor taste. Please stop.

Coach Crazy
05-31-2018, 08:50 AM
He has just as much right to 'clutter' this forum as you. In fact, when it comes to clutter, you're way ahead of the curve. Shouting down someone new or telling them not to post in an open forum when you're one of the worst offenders is in extremely poor taste. Please stop.

There is a difference between posting your opinion or fact, and trying to bring something to the table, as opposed to trying to shut someone down with technicalities that are made-up, simply because that person wants to be petulant. I'm not shouting anyone down. That's hyperbole. My post stands. No one, including people I don't agree with are expected, nor should be expected to put together a pages long argument filled with vids and breakdowns of everything they have said about a player over a 6 month+ period of time. Simply because someone doesn't want to do the leg work and/or refute what was said. That's on the person that is late to the party. To expect otherwise is disingenuous and very much lazy.

zaguarxj
05-31-2018, 12:00 PM
There is a difference between posting your opinion or fact, and trying to bring something to the table, as opposed to trying to shut someone down with technicalities that are made-up, simply because that person wants to be petulant. I'm not shouting anyone down. That's hyperbole. My post stands. No one, including people I don't agree with are expected, nor should be expected to put together a pages long argument filled with vids and breakdowns of everything they have said about a player over a 6 month+ period of time. Simply because someone doesn't want to do the leg work and/or refute what was said. That's on the person that is late to the party. To expect otherwise is disingenuous and very much lazy.

Repeating the same thing over and over again does not make it true. I'm not trying to refute anything, I'm just trying to see for my own eyes instead of relying on someone who appears to have some kind of axe to grind. You're probably right. He does look physically immature at this point, which is something he can work on, so it wouldn't surprise me to see him get abused defensively. But it is not "disingenuous" to ask for actual evidence instead of assumptions based upon appearance.

doctorzag
05-31-2018, 03:46 PM
Repeating the same thing over and over again does not make it true. I'm not trying to refute anything, I'm just trying to see for my own eyes instead of relying on someone who appears to have some kind of axe to grind. You're probably right. He does look physically immature at this point, which is something he can work on, so it wouldn't surprise me to see him get abused defensively. But it is not "disingenuous" to ask for actual evidence instead of assumptions based upon appearance.

Actual evidence does not exist which is why Crazy Coach does not present it. He has never seen Brock play, only internet clips which are only offensive highlights . He looks at Brock and see's a 6 foot white kid and make an assumption based on no facts.The criticism used to be that he could only put up numbers against inferior small school talent but now that he is doing it on the aau circuit against the top players the focus among a few on the board has shifted to his defense. He is the second highest scorer on the top team from Washington.

thebigsmoove
05-31-2018, 03:50 PM
Actual evidence does not exist which is why Crazy Coach does not present it. He has never seen Brock play, only internet clips which are only offensive highlights . He looks at Brock and see's a 6 foot white kid and make an assumption based on no facts.The criticism used to be that he could only put up numbers against inferior small school talent but now that he is doing it on the aau circuit against the top players the focus among a few on the board has shifted to his defense. He is the second highest scorer on the top team from Washington.

So you have seen him play and can vouch for his defensive acumen?

doctorzag
05-31-2018, 04:32 PM
So you have seen him play and can vouch for his defensive acumen?

No. I did not say he was a great defensive player though. I would guess he is average but I don't think Few recruited him as a defensive specialist. I believe his superior shooting, ball handling and passing is what got him his scholarship.

thebigsmoove
05-31-2018, 04:51 PM
No. I did not say he was a great defensive player though. I would guess he is average but I don't think Few recruited him as a defensive specialist. I believe his superior shooting, ball handling and passing is what got him his scholarship.

Well yeah i dont think anyone thinks hes not offensively at a much higher level. There is plenty of tape just on youtube to show that hes skilled on offense. What i dont get is people complaining about others who say they have seen enough to know hes not a great defender. There is more time spent in these threads complaining than actually debating the nuances of the disparate players we discuss. Its become almost unreadable because so many of you all have some vendetta against any poster who posites anything remotely critical. How can we engage in intelligent discourse if 90% of the discussion is centered on the credentials of frequent posters?

willandi
05-31-2018, 06:13 PM
Well yeah i dont think anyone thinks hes not offensively at a much higher level. There is plenty of tape just on youtube to show that hes skilled on offense. What i dont get is people complaining about others who say they have seen enough to know hes not a great defender. There is more time spent in these threads complaining than actually debating the nuances of the disparate players we discuss. Its become almost unreadable because so many of you all have some vendetta against any poster who posites anything remotely critical. How can we engage in intelligent discourse if 90% of the discussion is centered on the credentials of frequent posters?

One way would be to respond when you are asked or when you have something helpful to share. The whole pissing match I was in was when I reacted to an asinine statement by Jazz. Crazy and Markburn felt compelled to jump in.

thebigsmoove
06-01-2018, 04:38 AM
One way would be to respond when you are asked or when you have something helpful to share. The whole pissing match I was in was when I reacted to an asinine statement by Jazz. Crazy and Markburn felt compelled to jump in.

It takes two to tango. I dont have an issue with you, but this discussion was just silly.

bartruff1
06-01-2018, 05:43 AM
Is not.........:)

willandi
06-01-2018, 09:26 AM
It takes two to tango. I dont have an issue with you, but this discussion was just silly.

True...but I was the one you singled out.

thebigsmoove
06-01-2018, 10:14 AM
I'll bite!

Now you are questioning the skills of the coaching staff. I'm not sure that you are a Zag fan.

Not because you question the staff, by itself, but in conjunction with your other statements, I am not sure.

What are your coaching credentials?

And this is why...Questioning someones fanhood because you disagree with their opinion? I dont get it Will. Im fine with disagreement, im not fine with questioning peoples fanhood. Its beneath you.