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JPtheBeasta
05-01-2018, 05:11 PM
What does it mean to be “Zag material?”

It seems that there is discussion every year about whether or not Player X is so-called Zag material. It became apparent (again) recently that people don’t really agree on what that entails. Does simply being a Zag player make one qualify for this distinction? If not, what is the criterion or criteria that a player needs to meet?

seacatfan
05-01-2018, 05:34 PM
I think it is a uniquely Zag version of the more common "we didn't want him anyway" that appears on most message boards when a recruit chooses someone else.

As stated in another thread, "not Zag material" is very fluid and can change in a heartbeat if a player decides to transfer to GU. NWG was absolutely not Zag material while he was a Husky, but nobody complained about him once he moved to Spokane.

23dpg
05-01-2018, 05:40 PM
I hate the term as it is used on this forum.

GoZags
05-01-2018, 05:53 PM
The Pontiff probably recalls the details better than me ... but VERY early in this "cute little run" a UCLA writer coined the term ... based on the type of hard nosed, under rated kids the Zags had (and were attracting). The quote went something like this ... "When you're badder than bad and cold as ice and nobody knows you ... you must be 'Zag Material' "

In the year 2000, Randy Dickau used the term in what I believe was his only post on a GU message board. Here is the post (written when his son Dan Dickau had finished his redshirt year and had yet to take the floor as a Zag). Note the use of the term "Zag Material" ...


Impressions of Gon ZAG a after one season?

"Love of the game" runs extraordinarily deep at GU. Player, excredible fans (The Kennel...WOW!), parents and coaches.
"Knowledge of the game" within the community is very high.
"Respect and appreciation" of what is required to achieve success. Ego drive, while necessary and valued, is consistenly held in-check for the good of the entire team This is unique in the "modern"era.) The word is TEAM. The "fit" is infinitely better at GU.
"Coaching". Honesty, effort, one-on-one attention is expected and received by the players. "Help me get better" is a request made of coaches which is responded to with enthusiasm. How refreshing! Comprehension of the term "Zag Material" is now complete and is a component of what make this program so special.
"Academic Expectations." 3.3 GPA "nuff said".
"The Dream" of an NCAA Championship is alive! 2001? 2002? However I must not get ahead of myself.
Why not 2000? "My teams on the floor!"
3D'sDD

JPtheBeasta
05-01-2018, 06:43 PM
I had no idea that “Zag material” occupied such a solid place in the GU canon. I’ve typically applied it to selfless, competitive, gym rat, hustling, floor burn types.

If I try to apply the term in the most literal sense, the tag on my Meech jersey in my closet says Zag material is 100% polyester.

GoZags
05-01-2018, 07:13 PM
I had no idea that “Zag material” occupied such a solid place in the GU canon.

I recall a bit more about the coining of the term. It was shortly after Ryan Floyd (Sprague-Harrington) hit 5 threes as the Zags pounded UCLA by their largest margin of defeat ever at Pauley (61-43). Another memorable line came about that time .... "The Zags are beating teams full of McDonalds All Americans. Meanwhile the Zag players are from towns so small they don't even HAVE a McDonalds".

The UCLA "Zag Material" writer ... Michael Miller .... went on to become a successful Hollywood Writer/Producer.

DixieZag
05-01-2018, 07:19 PM
Always seemed to me to be one of those "you know it when you see it" things.

GZ would know the history much better than me, though the history seems rooted in a time when we got kids others hadn't heard of.

But, people had certainly heard of "Gary Bell Jr." - was he not Washington State POY? And I doubt anyone here would quibble that Bell (in my mind) embodies "Zag material" primarily bc of a quote I heard from coach Few (On the Coach K radio show, no less). Few said: "I just wish I could coach him the rest of my life. I don't think he's had a bad practice the entire time he's been here."

Obviously Gary is not the only one who could be described in such glowing terms, but it's those types that I think one would make a good start if the project was to come up with a modern working definition.

If B.Will. forswears the lure of Arizona and Oregon to join a band of brothers on a mission to win a national championship, he's definitely got the prerequisites down.

Angelo Roncalli
05-01-2018, 07:46 PM
The term "Zag Material" was coined by Michael Alexander Miller. Before Rivals, before Scout, before 247, there was West Coast Hoops. Miller started WCH in the mid 90's, about the time GU made its first trip to the dance. GoZags has the story of the first use of the term essentially right. It was in an article Miller wrote about a Zag recruit (I can't remember who) BEFORE the Elite 8 run. We're talking during the days of Prodigy and AOL.

Miller was a very interesting guy. I know he went to UCLA. I believe he was a lawyer, but I don't know if he practiced law. He was a screenwriter and producer. Here's his IMDB page:

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0588986/

This was a piece that appeared on WCH after Miller hung up his WCH keyboard:

http://www.socalhoops.tierranet.com/archive/prepnotes/998/mm921.htm

WCH had a message board, Miller's articles, and correspondents who covered teams, conferences and high school sports in the West. Bill Nance, who used to participate on this board many years ago, was a Navy man at Whidbey Island Naval Air Station who covered Washington and Oregon high school basketball. I was the Gonzaga correspondent. Another occasional poster on this board, "Bettingman," covered USF basketball.

WCH came to an end in 1999. Here's the epitaph:

http://www.socalhoops.tierranet.com/archive/prepnotes/0999/rich0922.htm

The best part about "Zag Material" was how much fans of other WCC schools, particularly USF, hated the term. Which was part of the reason I loved it. Even better was the fact that it was coined by someone who had no association with GU basketball. A neutral outside observer.

West Coast Hoops was a hell of a lot of fun. I only met Miller once, at a UW game when he was preparing a piece on Doug Wrenn. I'm not sure what happened to him, but there is no doubt he was one of the pioneers of internet college sports sites and message boards.

soccerdud
05-01-2018, 08:20 PM
i expected this to be a dumpster fire. color me impressed, fam.

kitzbuel
05-01-2018, 09:15 PM
Thanks Pontiff and GoZags. Great insight into the team and the online community that follows it so avidly.

MDABE80
05-01-2018, 09:48 PM
It's a composite term generally of all things good we'd like to have in a kid who joins GU's program. Began, as I recall, about 98-99. USF hated it.... well...the one guy did. Made him crazy which he was anyway i.e. he didn't need us to be nutz. UW hated it as well when it became clear that the program wasn't just the "little engine that could " and we weren't going away. Angelo , I think Miller became a sports attorney in LA. I had some correspondence with him off the UCLA board which he loved . Mostly has disappeared or has a new screen name. Probably busy with his job.

And this business of "not Zag Material" is kinda tongue in cheek....or like we used to say "we didn't want him anyway" when a recruit went elsewhere. ... which is even a better joke. Time passes....many years of the journey.

Birddog
05-02-2018, 04:32 AM
When The Pontiff and GoZags weigh in on the same thread, you better pay attention. This is the equivalent of Dr Graue buying you lunch. Just curious, who started "Zag Hair"? which is frequently a component of "Zag Material".

Yet another form https://www.amazon.com/GONZAGA-COTTON-FABRIC-GONZAGA-FABRIC-SYKEL/dp/B00ESJNNIK

GoZags
05-02-2018, 05:49 AM
Glad I started my initial post with "The Pontiff probably recalls the details better than me"

Angelo is absolutely correct ... the term Zag Material pre-dates the '99 Elite 8 run .... and while the "McDonalds" line came after the '00 UCLA win ... the Zag Material mantra was well before it.

Also, the Randy Dickau post (quoted above) was written prior to the start of the '00 dance .... after the '99 Elite 8 and before the '00 Sweet Sixteen (when 3D was redshirting) and the '01 Sweet 16 (when Dickau/Calvary et al made the Sweet 16 and lost to eventual National Champ Michigan in Atlanta)
-----
er·ra·tum

noun
an error in printing or writing.
a list of corrected errors appended to a book or published in a subsequent issue of a journal.



The term "Zag Material" was coined by Michael Alexander Miller. Before Rivals, before Scout, before 247, there was West Coast Hoops. Miller started WCH in the mid 90's, about the time GU made its first trip to the dance. GoZags has the story of the first use of the term essentially right. It was in an article Miller wrote about a Zag recruit (I can't remember who) BEFORE the Elite 8 run. We're talking during the days of Prodigy and AOL.

Miller was a very interesting guy. I know he went to UCLA. I believe he was a lawyer, but I don't know if he practiced law. He was a screenwriter and producer. Here's his IMDB page:

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0588986/

This was a piece that appeared on WCH after Miller hung up his WCH keyboard:

http://www.socalhoops.tierranet.com/archive/prepnotes/998/mm921.htm

WCH had a message board, Miller's articles, and correspondents who covered teams, conferences and high school sports in the West. Bill Nance, who used to participate on this board many years ago, was a Navy man at Whidbey Island Naval Air Station who covered Washington and Oregon high school basketball. I was the Gonzaga correspondent. Another occasional poster on this board, "Bettingman," covered USF basketball.

WCH came to an end in 1999. Here's the epitaph:

http://www.socalhoops.tierranet.com/archive/prepnotes/0999/rich0922.htm

The best part about "Zag Material" was how much fans of other WCC schools, particularly USF, hated the term. Which was part of the reason I loved it. Even better was the fact that it was coined by someone who had no association with GU basketball. A neutral outside observer.

West Coast Hoops was a hell of a lot of fun. I only met Miller once, at a UW game when he was preparing a piece on Doug Wrenn. I'm not sure what happened to him, but there is no doubt he was one of the pioneers of internet college sports sites and message boards.

stevet75
05-02-2018, 06:18 AM
To me "Zag Material" is a someone that Coach Few and the Zags want to play with. If they want him then I want him, and he must be Zag material.

Robzagnut
05-02-2018, 07:26 AM
To me "Zag Material" is a someone that Coach Few and the Zags want to play with. If they want him then I want him, and he must be Zag material.

And after meeting with the current players and they approve of him. Wasn't there a player a few years a go that met with the players and they deemed him, not being Zag material?

NotoriousZ
05-02-2018, 07:35 AM
When The Pontiff and GoZags weigh in on the same thread, you better pay attention. This is the equivalent of Dr Graue buying you lunch. Just curious, who started "Zag Hair"? which is frequently a component of "Zag Material".

Yet another form https://www.amazon.com/GONZAGA-COTTON-FABRIC-GONZAGA-FABRIC-SYKEL/dp/B00ESJNNIK

Yeah but this kind of intelligent and informative dialogue makes my witty one-liners pale by comparison.

Keep it up, gents

MDABE80
05-02-2018, 08:12 AM
While we're at it. 6 (SIX) months till November!

GoZags
05-02-2018, 09:49 AM
And after meeting with the current players and they approve of him. Wasn't there a player a few years a go that met with the players and they deemed him, not being Zag material?

More than one guy has been vetoed by “the fellas”.

webspinnre
05-02-2018, 12:20 PM
Love some of the wonderful history that we get here on this forum. Thanks for sharing!

JPtheBeasta
05-02-2018, 01:05 PM
Love some of the wonderful history that we get here on this forum. Thanks for sharing!

+1

DixieZag
05-02-2018, 03:04 PM
More than one guy has been vetoed by “the fellas”.

I don't know if even you know who the players were, I know you'll never tell if you did, (nor should you). I do know this. I don't think it's very likely that the team made a mistake in their judgment. Who better to trust?

Speaking of trust, how wonderful is it to have a coaching staff with that kind of trust in the players' judgments? And how wonderful and empowering must it be to BE one of those kids who plays for coaches that trust them implicitly like that.

Wonderful stuff.

GoZags
05-02-2018, 03:14 PM
I don't know if even you know who the players were, I know you'll never tell if you did, (nor should you). I do know this. I don't think it's very likely that the team made a mistake in their judgment. Who better to trust?

Speaking of trust, how wonderful is it to have a coaching staff with that kind of trust in the players' judgments? And how wonderful and empowering must it be to BE one of those kids who plays for coaches that trust them implicitly like that.

Wonderful stuff.

One of those "vetoes" almost broke Few's heart. In a conversation with a couple of us 5 or 6 years into his tenure as h.c. (when Adam was on the team) ... Few (who didn't name the kid) said he asked the guys .... "Are you SURE"???? And they said .... "Yes Coach ... we are sure".

And that was that ... the kid didn't become a Zag.

DixieZag
05-02-2018, 03:33 PM
One of those "vetoes" almost broke Few's heart. In a conversation with a couple of us 5 or 6 years into his tenure as h.c. (when Adam was on the team) ... Few (who didn't name the kid) said he asked the guys .... "Are you SURE"???? And they said .... "Yes Coach ... we are sure".

And that was that ... the kid didn't become a Zag.

Kind of like the process of becoming a SEAL? The current people put check marks or "X's" next to the name on the wall. Kind of like that, though not quite.

Whatever that "Zag material" may be (I didn't know it had such a formal history), I still maintain it is best defined by the players one immediately conjures up when one hears the phrase, "he's a Zag."

Brian Wessley was a Zag (it only takes one year).
Bell-Pangos
Bobby Sugar, Sacre
Olynick
Harris
Pargo
Dickau
Santangelo
Calvary

And to me, the quintessential Zag: Turiaf

None of them would be vetoed, and apparently neither is Brandon, and thus he should be a Zag, too - if we're lucky enough to be chosen. :)

Reborn
05-02-2018, 03:48 PM
Zag material: A proven winner who is under-rated. He plays with a chip on his shoulder because he's out to prove to the Big Boys that he can beat them. A player who's Zag material is a player who has the attitude of David who goes out to defeat Goliath. He's coachable, and trusts that they know the way to San Jose. TOUGH. He's one guy in the group called "the band of brothers." Each and everyone of them has each other's back. ALWAYS. In THIS band of brothers there's no me or I. It's all about us. In the end, there are not 13 players in this band of brothers. There is ONE.

I believe Mark Few see's characteristics in Brandon Williams. And that's good enough for me.

My favorite player who appitomizes the players in this band of brothers is Steven Gray.

SunDevilGolfZag
05-02-2018, 04:45 PM
Zag material: A proven winner who is under-rated. He plays with a chip on his shoulder because he's out to prove to the Big Boys that he can beat them. A player who's Zag material is a player who has the attitude of David who goes out to defeat Goliath. He's coachable, and trusts that they know the way to San Jose. TOUGH. He's one guy in the group called "the band of brothers." Each and everyone of them has each other's back. ALWAYS. In THIS band of brothers there's no me or I. It's all about us. In the end, there are not 13 players in this band of brothers. There is ONE.

I believe Mark Few see's characteristics in Brandon Williams. And that's good enough for me.

My favorite player who appitomizes the players in this band of brothers is Steven Gray.

When I went to GU in the early 80’s this was basically the definition of some one who was a “Zag.” I assumed the term had a long history then and it really hasn’t changed since

GoZags
05-03-2018, 06:14 AM
When I went to GU in the early 80’s this was basically the definition of some one who was a “Zag.” I assumed the term had a long history then and it really hasn’t changed since

Bingo ....

Reborn
05-03-2018, 06:24 AM
When I went to GU in the early 80’s this was basically the definition of some one who was a “Zag.” I assumed the term had a long history then and it really hasn’t changed since

In most ways the definition has not changed. But there are now certain players who were not under rated coming out of high school. However the other attributes I have described I think still apply. I think we're really beginning to learn that chemistry and cohesion are two very important qualities in winning.

CDC84
05-03-2018, 08:47 AM
As Withers had addressed many times, Gonzaga relies on a "family-style team culture" for their success more than any super successful program that is out there besides Duke. Few has modeled his program after Duke in so many ways (which is why it is always shocking when I see Duke fans blast Gonzaga so much. You would think they would see the similarities). Many programs talk about how they have a "family-style team culture," but most really don't walk the talk. The culture comes from within, but it also comes from the fact that both programs are just hated by so many college basketball fans (for different reasons and similar reasons). That sort of outside hate creates what Few calls a "bunker mentality" where the staff and players have stick together like glue to tune out the distractions and nonsense. I know it's hard to imagine that GU would be disliked so much, but really, look at the comments section underneath any online article that's written about them. The venom and jealously is super intense. It only rivals Duke. Obviously, I think "real" basketball people and "real" college basketball fans have great respect for what GU has done.

Obviously, as the Pontiff has pointed out, the whole phrase "Zag material" has a completely different origin, but for me, this is what it means. It's not something that makes Gonzaga's players better than the players at other schools. It just makes them different. You have to be a bit different to be a Zag.

zagdontzig
05-03-2018, 11:25 AM
As Withers had addressed many times, Gonzaga relies on a "family-style team culture" for their success more than any super successful program that is out there besides Duke. Few has modeled his program after Duke in so many ways (which is why it is always shocking when I see Duke fans blast Gonzaga so much. You would think they would see the similarities). Many programs talk about how they have a "family-style team culture," but most really don't walk the talk. The culture comes from within, but it also comes from the fact that both programs are just hated by so many college basketball fans (for different reasons and similar reasons). That sort of outside hate creates what Few calls a "bunker mentality" where the staff and players have stick together like glue to tune out the distractions and nonsense. I know it's hard to imagine that GU would be disliked so much, but really, look at the comments section underneath any online article that's written about them. The venom and jealously is super intense. It only rivals Duke. Obviously, I think "real" basketball people and "real" college basketball fans have great respect for what GU has done.

Obviously, as the Pontiff has pointed out, the whole phrase "Zag material" has a completely different origin, but for me, this is what it means. It's not something that makes Gonzaga's players better than the players at other schools. It just makes them different. You have to be a bit different to be a Zag.

This.

seacatfan
05-03-2018, 12:04 PM
Please don't compare GU to Duke. It's not the same, and that's a good thing. Duke has a win at all costs mentality, even if it means attacking opposing players, institutionalized flopping on both offense and defense, a coach who constantly berates officials, and I'd say rather than a family atmosphere it's more of a cult of personality. When is the last time (hint: never) that a GU player did a chest stomp, flying elbow drop or repeated tripping of an opponent? That's what Duke basketball brings to the world. Again, do not compare GU to Duke, it's insulting. Many Duke players were clearly not "Zag material" and K has largely either looked the other way or been an apologist throughout these various occurrences of misbehavior.

Zagceo
05-03-2018, 04:29 PM
Please don't compare GU to Duke. It's not the same, and that's a good thing. Duke has a win at all costs mentality, even if it means attacking opposing players, institutionalized flopping on both offense and defense, a coach who constantly berates officials, and I'd say rather than a family atmosphere it's more of a cult of personality. When is the last time (hint: never) that a GU player did a chest stomp, flying elbow drop or repeated tripping of an opponent? That's what Duke basketball brings to the world. Again, do not compare GU to Duke, it's insulting. Many Duke players were clearly not "Zag material" and K has largely either looked the other way or been an apologist throughout these various occurrences of misbehavior.

would love to play them in Maui with FIVE 5 star recruits coming in


http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/23388504/duke-blue-devils-commit-joey-baker-reclassifies-2018-class

seacatfan
05-03-2018, 04:46 PM
would love to play them in Maui with FIVE 5 star recruits coming in


http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/23388504/duke-blue-devils-commit-joey-baker-reclassifies-2018-class

I saw that today, but hadn't seen a picture of him before. Oh boy. They always have to have one. Just something about those kids they get, they are so unlikable just to look at them, and then you see them play and it only gets worse. This is obviously Grayson's replacement as "that guy" and follows in the footsteps of J J, Paulus, Scheyer, etc.


What is it with the reclassifying? Nobody has done it more than Duke, it's becoming an annual event for them.

GrizZAG
05-04-2018, 01:49 PM
Zag material: A proven winner who is under-rated. He plays with a chip on his shoulder because he's out to prove to the Big Boys that he can beat them. A player who's Zag material is a player who has the attitude of David who goes out to defeat Goliath. He's coachable, and trusts that they know the way to San Jose. TOUGH. He's one guy in the group called "the band of brothers." Each and everyone of them has each other's back. ALWAYS. In THIS band of brothers there's no me or I. It's all about us. In the end, there are not 13 players in this band of brothers. There is ONE.

I believe Mark Few see's characteristics in Brandon Williams. And that's good enough for me.

My favorite player who appitomizes the players in this band of brothers is Steven Gray.

A man that knows what it really means.

Zagcity
05-09-2018, 06:26 AM
Bump

zagdontzig
05-09-2018, 06:45 AM
Bump

lol why

Robzagnut
05-09-2018, 07:40 AM
lol why


Because obviously Brandon Williams and Joe Cremo aren't Zag Material.

MDABE80
05-09-2018, 08:33 AM
Joe was close;)

willandi
05-09-2018, 09:57 AM
Because obviously Brandon Williams and Joe Cremo aren't Zag Material.

They both were, and are Zag material. They just made a different choice. Don't be vindictive!

What if they both read this forum daily and see the negative nellies, and made their choice to go elsewhere because of the negative posters here on this forum?

zagdontzig
05-09-2018, 11:23 AM
Because obviously Brandon Williams and Joe Cremo aren't Zag Material.

Zagcity set the trap, and you just had to put your finder in it.

LongIslandZagFan
05-09-2018, 12:02 PM
Because obviously Brandon Williams and Joe Cremo aren't Zag Material.

Sarcasm?

webspinnre
05-09-2018, 01:32 PM
They both were, and are Zag material. They just made a different choice. Don't be vindictive!



+1000

Robzagnut
05-09-2018, 01:56 PM
Sarcasm?

Yup.

willandi
05-09-2018, 03:54 PM
Yup.

Then I apologize, sir. There have been so many dissenting and disparaging views. that at times it gets muddled.

I am sorry.

Reborn
05-09-2018, 04:54 PM
Paul Pennington is Zag Material. I'd love to see someone who has been playing for one of our all-time great rivals (Montana) suit up in a Zag Uni. I'm feelin confident about him.

Go Zags!!!

btzag
05-09-2018, 06:30 PM
My two cents on the whole 'Zag Material' topic has always been about the mindset of the kid going into college and not necessarily the makeup of the kid.

Guys who have transferred in always had the 'makeup', but when they were recruited their mindset might have been; big school!, big city!, big conference!, flashy facilities!, playing time! instead of the GU mindset of team!, development!, family!, winning!, life balance!.

IMO if Brandon Williams was focused on winning, development, coaching and true team atmosphere he would have picked the Zags. He stated he wanted a F4 trophy...not gonna get that at Arizona... His focus right now is on other priorities. Doesn't make him a bad kid or non-Zag-material.

jazzdelmar
05-09-2018, 07:02 PM
Ben Simmons definitely not Zag material

willandi
05-09-2018, 07:12 PM
Ben Simmons definitely not Zag material

But LeBron James would be...if he was eligible. NC almost guaranteed, if not 3-4 in a row.

btzag
05-09-2018, 07:16 PM
Ben Simmons definitely not Zag material

Nope. Same with Fultz. Lots of kids who went SDSU.

It’s ok though, I visited GU and UW and knew which one was for me. And I was both Zag and Husky material!

Robzagnut
05-09-2018, 09:21 PM
But LeBron James would be...if he was eligible. NC almost guaranteed, if not 3-4 in a row.

Not one, not two, not three, not four, not five...

Robzagnut
05-09-2018, 09:23 PM
Then I apologize, sir. There have been so many dissenting and disparaging views. that at times it gets muddled.

I am sorry.

No need. When I posted a flamer in an inflammatory topic such as this I expected a little heat.

willandi
05-10-2018, 06:23 AM
No need. When I posted a flamer in an inflammatory topic such as this I expected a little heat.

I understand, but online it is too easy to take offense, be snarky or just rude. I do actually try to be civil most of the time, and when due, an apology is never a bad thing.

theCOG
05-10-2018, 12:07 PM
I agree. Apologies are very useful in times like these.