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HOOTER
10-30-2007, 07:11 PM
At this time every year I am reminded that I stand a snowball's chance in hell of ever seeing a Zag's game at the Kennel. It just seems like a damn shame that a basketball program with such a huge following plays in such a small facility. I am constantly seeing people on this board asking how to get game tickets, only to be given the "you don't stand a chance" type of answer. It shouldn't be this way. This community supports the Zag's in a big way and building a facility that excludes that community was wrong, and having one game a year in the arena doesn't rectify that mistake. The Zag's would sell out 10,000 easily, regardless of who they were playing. I understand that money plays a huge part in this, but I really think the powers that be at GU could have found a way to build something bigger if they had wanted to. The bottom line, the Zag's are a big time program that play in a small time arena.

P.S.- I am sure I am not the first to voice (or should I say type) this opinion, so I apologize if I am beating a dead horse. I just wanted to vent my frustration.

P.S.S- By calling Macarthy a "small time arena" I am in no way suggesting that it is not a wonderful facility. It's just way too small.

jigga5
10-30-2007, 07:15 PM
cry me a river. What can we do?

J-Mac Zag Forever
10-30-2007, 07:16 PM
It is my understanding that the Zags could not get a permit for a larger arena. The city did not want the competition.

J-Mac Zag Forever
10-30-2007, 07:17 PM
It is my understanding that the Zags could not get a permit for a larger arena. The city did not want the competition. :mad:

VinnyZag
10-30-2007, 07:27 PM
Is that true? What I recall hearing was that the university didn't want too big an arena ... the brass wanted to keep the "feel" of the old Kennel, which they thought would be lost in a larger facility. But never followed the details too closely.
For what it's worth, you CAN get tickets to K2. It'll just cost you your firstborn via a ticket broker or online auction site. My wife tried to get us tickets for my birthday last year, and she discovered (I'm not making this up) that it would have only cost a little more to fly to New York for the Duke game than to buy tickets for a conference game at K2.
Unfortunatly, we did neither.

HOOTER
10-30-2007, 07:27 PM
cry me a river. What can we do?

Nothing really. Like I said, I was just venting, that's all.

roxdoc
10-30-2007, 07:31 PM
Thats a new one that I find difficult to believe. No offense to you - I question your source.

jigga5
10-30-2007, 07:41 PM
Nothing really. Like I said, I was just venting, that's all.

Im jus playin with you.

Birddog
10-30-2007, 07:44 PM
We need to have Angelo clarify this, but the way I remember it, the cost to add about 2,000 (8,000 total as opposed to 6,000 MOL) seats to the arena would have nearly doubled the cost. Another way to look at it is that the cost of the "cheap seats" is far more expensive than the cost of the better seats.
Maybe they could put a jumbo screen in the old Kennel and charge people to view it there. Not quite like seeing it live, but with a crowd nevertheless.

Birddog

former1dog
10-30-2007, 07:44 PM
http://cgi.ebay.com/2-GONZAGA-MENS-VS-EMPORIA-STATE-CENTER-COURT_W0QQitemZ160174694044QQihZ006QQcategoryZ1612 2QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

You got a shot, go for it!

HOOTER
10-30-2007, 07:45 PM
Thats a new one that I find difficult to believe. No offense to you - I question your source.

Who?

sullyzag66
10-30-2007, 07:51 PM
Have the Zags ever sold out the Spokane Arena in recent years? I remember announcers discussing that point during a game televised from there last year. They were saying that K2 was about the right size since they were not able to sell out the arena.

ZagNative
10-30-2007, 08:01 PM
John Blanchette wrote a good column (http://www.spokesmanreview.com/sports/story.asp?ID=38100) about the factors involved in determining the arena's size a couple of years ago.

HOOTER
10-30-2007, 08:03 PM
Have the Zags ever sold out the Spokane Arena in recent years? I remember announcers discussing that point during a game televised from there last year. They were saying that K2 was about the right size since they were not able to sell out the arena.

That was the pre-season NIT. That didn't sell out because you couldn't buy tickets for individual games. Basically if you wanted to watch the Zag's play you had to buy tickets for a bunch of games that you weren't going to go to. Otherwise the Zag's always sell out the arena.

HOOTER
10-30-2007, 08:04 PM
http://cgi.ebay.com/2-GONZAGA-MENS-VS-EMPORIA-STATE-CENTER-COURT_W0QQitemZ160174694044QQihZ006QQcategoryZ1612 2QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

You got a shot, go for it!

Thanks! I will at least give it a shot.

former1dog
10-30-2007, 08:13 PM
Thanks! I will at least give it a shot.

Let us know how it goes. I'll guess $100 for the pair. :confused:

Shanachie
10-30-2007, 08:22 PM
At this time every year I am reminded that I stand a snowball's chance in hell of ever seeing a Zag's game at the Kennel... I am constantly seeing people on this board asking how to get game tickets, only to be given the "you don't stand a chance" type of answer.



Hooter, do you mean that you have no chance of seeing the Zags for face value, or that you really have no chance? Tickets change hands for every game on ebay and stubhub, and I bet you could find a ticket for most games by turning up at the MAC early with a sign saying you are looking for one. Will you have to pay up? Sure, but if it is for one game, you could probably manage.

And as to your other point, I don't think it's a shame that the MAC seats 6,000. I think it's a great size - it's always full and probably will be, even in off years. I don't think you could say that of a 10,000 seat arena.

sullyzag66
10-30-2007, 08:24 PM
That was the pre-season NIT. That didn't sell out because you couldn't buy tickets for individual games. Basically if you wanted to watch the Zag's play you had to buy tickets for a bunch of games that you weren't going to go to. Otherwise the Zag's always sell out the arena.
That makes more sense. I wondered at the time why they wouldn't be able to sell out there. As I recall now, it was Rick Majerus who was talking about it. I should have known there would be more to the story.

BoltZag
10-30-2007, 08:26 PM
It is my understanding that the Zags could not get a permit for a larger arena. The city did not want the competition. :mad:

Competition with what? The Zags are in no way required to play at the Spokane Arena (there is only one game there this year) and GU rarely opens its doors to concerts or other entertainment, so there is no competition.

On top of that, the size had nothing to do with a permit. Withholding a building permit for fear of competition would land the city in a lawsuit in a heartbeat.

Bottom line:

...it's a great size - it's always full and probably will be, even in off years. I don't think you could say that of a 10,000 seat arena.

HOOTER
10-30-2007, 08:33 PM
John Blanchette wrote a good column (http://www.spokesmanreview.com/sports/story.asp?ID=38100) about the factors involved in determining the arena's size a couple of years ago.

Thanks for the article. It was very informative. Actually, if I remember correctly, I read that one when it first came out. I guess the part that bugs me the most is that community inclusion was very low on the priority list when planning the new arena. They knew that absolutely no tickets would be available to the general public and that was of little concern. The article also mentions other new arenas that never sell out, which I think is a non-issue in this case. I understand that nothing can be done about this, and my complaining is in vain, but as a die-hard fan I've just had a hard time getting over this. Not to be dramatic, but it has always felt like a slap in the face. One thing I would like to see, as mentioned in the article, is more games played at the Spokane arena. That would certainly be a nice gesture to the "general public" and a step in the right direction.

thickman1
10-30-2007, 08:43 PM
argh! damn Spokesman requiring a subscription for the online content...anyone want to test my inbox again? :D

HOOTER
10-30-2007, 08:45 PM
Hooter, do you mean that you have no chance of seeing the Zags for face value, or that you really have no chance? Tickets change hands for every game on ebay and stubhub, and I bet you could find a ticket for most games by turning up at the MAC early with a sign saying you are looking for one. Will you have to pay up? Sure, but if it is for one game, you could probably manage.

And as to your other point, I don't think it's a shame that the MAC seats 6,000. I think it's a great size - it's always full and probably will be, even in off years. I don't think you could say that of a 10,000 seat arena.

I've seen the Zag's play in person a few times (at the Spokane arena and at Key arena) so I'm not saying that I have no chance to see them. What I am saying is that, as much as I wish I could, I can't afford to pay hundreds of dollars for tickets on ebay or from a scalper, and I shouldn't have to. Call me crazy, but I just think that a big time program should have a big time facility. The Zag's are much bigger than just a college basketball team, they are Spokane's team. Actually, it's much bigger than that. They have fans all over the country and even the world, as evidenced right here on this message board. They should have a facility that lives up to their reputation.

Angelo Roncalli
10-30-2007, 09:32 PM
I make this same post every six months or so.

Birddog is right. Arena math/economics is more complex than most people realize.

The 6000 seat MAC cost approximately $25,000,000 to build. As the Blanchette article points out, at the time the time the MAC was constructed, 8,000 seat arenas averaged about $37,000,000.

As the Blanchette article also points, quoting assistant AD Chris Standiford, Gonzaga reasonably believed at the time that they could have sold out an 8,000 seat arena. BUT, and this is a huge but, under the circumstances that existed at the time, an 8,000 seat couldn't have paid for itself, even if sold out.

$25,000,000 at the time tapped the donors dry (in fact, Fr. Spitzer had to go back to the McCartheys several times and have them up their donations, for which every Zag fan should be eternally grateful--when you see either of the McCarthey brothers at a game or on campus, walk up to them and thank them for their incredible generosity). There was no more donation capital for construction and Gonzaga would have been worse than foolish to fund a bigger arena with debt because the income stream from an 8,000 seat arena couldn't have serviced the debt, even if every seat in the house were sold out for every game.

An unfortunate reality/dilemma of stadium economics is that the last seat built in a new arena, i.e., the 8,000th seat, is the most expensive to construct and produces the least revenue of any seat in the house. The reason is that construction costs go up exponentially, primarily because of the price of structural steel.

Here's some incredibly simplistic math, but it illustrates the point. Assume 2,000 more seats, each selling for $20 for 13 home games and 1,000 more Bulldog Club memberships (1 for every pair of seats) at $200 per year. That generates $720,000 gross revenue a year. Assume you borrow $12,000,000 on a 30 year note at 6%. It will take monthly payments totaling $864,000 a year to pay the mortgage, and that's before you take into account the greater operating costs (heat, lights, staff, etc.) that an 8,000 seat arena would require. That's a revenue shortfall of $150,000 year--without operating costs being figured in. Then there's the matter of what happens if the team becomes a .500 team for a few years and you only sell 6,000 seats a game. You're flipped even worse.

An 8,000 seat arena would have been a glorious monument to hubris that wouldn't have made financial sense.

Hope this helps.

JHoop should chime in if I'm wrong on my mortgage assumptions.

ZagNative
10-30-2007, 09:50 PM
Wow. Fantastic explanation, Angelo. I saved the thread so if I ever find myself seeing this complaint again, I'll remember why I'm so glad the Gonzaga powers that be are running the place.

MickMick
10-31-2007, 01:19 AM
Nice explanation Angelo. But using the logic of:
the last seat built in a new arena, i.e., the 8,000th seat, is the most expensive to construct and produces the least revenue of any seat in the house. Why are other schools buiding 10, 12, up to 20 k seat arenas? And I don't buy into the argument that UK built Rupp arena with football money.

How much revenue does TV bring in? How much revenue does this successful basketball program generate?

bulldogshawn
10-31-2007, 04:11 AM
There will be tickets available for sale at face value for a few games this year, while the students are on winter break. While we certainly are a huge part of the atmosphere of GU basketball, if seeing a game inside the Kennel is what you want you can get it. Find a Bulldog Club member and be nice, they can buy tickets the Wednesday before the game anytime the students don't claim all of our seats. Here are the dates I would expect this to happen this year:
12/17 v. Northern Colorado
12/31 v. Utah
On occasion (including next week's Emporia State game) this will happen for games when we are in session. If you know a Bulldog Club member, ask them to help you out, as tickets go on sale this morning at 9. Any seats that sneak passed the BC members will be available to the public at noon. Be ready, dial quickly, and good luck. :) http://gozags.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/103007aaa.html

saintzag
10-31-2007, 04:43 AM
Nice explanation Angelo. But using the logic of: Why are other schools buiding 10, 12, up to 20 k seat arenas? And I don't buy into the argument that UK built Rupp arena with football money.

How much revenue does TV bring in? How much revenue does this successful basketball program generate?

The problem with this logic is that tv money doesn't increase or decrease based on building size.

FlatheadZag
10-31-2007, 05:59 AM
I drive over from Montana for a couple of games each year. I stand outside of the arena with a creative sign and usually get a ticket(s) within 30 minutes and have never been charged over face value. So there is hope..

zaguarxj
10-31-2007, 06:10 AM
I have a some of questions about buying tickets on ebay/craigslist.

1. What is the face value of a ticket (is it printed on the ticket?)
2. Is it legal in WA to resell your ticket for more than face value? (is scalping legal?)
3. If I have to pay more than face value on ebay, what am I likely to have to pay, say for a regular season WCC game (not a marquee game)?

Sorry if this is a hijack, but it seems on-topic enough.

MickMick
10-31-2007, 06:21 AM
The problem with this logic is that TV money doesn't increase or decrease based on building size.


You are correct. TV money is strictly dependent upon team success or indirectly, the size of the fan (TV ad consumer) base. The reference to TV money has to do with income available to finance the larger venue. I would suppose that without football revenue, the basketball revenue is the sole source of money available to prop up other athletic programs (ie. satisfy Title IX).

This isn't about generating large amounts of short term revenue with an arena. This is about accommodating the size of your regional fan base. Over the long term, the larger venue is paid off (pays itself off) and then returns more revenue than the smaller venue.


Further, this doesn't explain why other schools believe that the larger venue is a worthy investment.

Nevtelen
10-31-2007, 06:36 AM
Nice explanation Angelo. But using the logic of: Why are other schools buiding 10, 12, up to 20 k seat arenas? And I don't buy into the argument that UK built Rupp arena with football money.

How much revenue does TV bring in? How much revenue does this successful basketball program generate?

Notice what schools have larger arenas - almost exclusively large state schools. They have a bigger ability to eat debt for a variety of reasons than GU does and/or a lot more alternate revenue streams such as, yes, football, a lot more tuition dollars coming in (many with 10 times the GU student body), etc. Until GU can pull in 23k rabid fans for Kraziness in the Kennel (some of whom paid significant $$ to get a hold of supposedly free tickets), lets not compare ourselves to Kentucky.

BobZag
10-31-2007, 09:10 AM
It is my understanding that the Zags could not get a permit for a larger arena. The city did not want the competition.

It came down to basic dollars and cents. If GU wanted the stands to go higher, or add a secord tier, the cost would start doubling, tripling, in a hurry. It cost $23-$24 million. To add, say, just 2000 more seats it would've cost $50 million. GU is not a state-funded school, it can't use all those tax dollars.

My advice: make it known that you'd like tickets to a certain game and let the generous folks on this board pull through for you. You'll get tix if you let it be known. Also, try for tix to games held when the students are gone, ie, N. Colorado on December 17th and Utah on New Year's Eve. There will tickets aplenty for those.

ZagNut08
10-31-2007, 09:16 AM
It is my understanding that you can "scalp" tickets on GU premises for face value, anything more (like everywhere) is illegal. Off GU campus (ebay/craigslist/the corner of hamilton and trent) you can sell them for whatever you want

I have needed tickets 3 times for friends or family in town and have been able to get them for free or $20 (face) each time.

One time the lady asked me to donate the face value of the ticket to hurricane katrina relief inside

I know it is tough to rely on picking up a ticket if you are making a long drive or flight, but it is a fairly safe bet

ZagnetitForce
10-31-2007, 09:29 AM
One of the best decisions I ever made (and it was a tough one) was to throw my name in the hat for season tickets! It always hits hard to come up with the cash in the summer to pay for them, but boy oh boy have we gotten our money worth! I was not going to do it - can't afford it, etc., but as I thought about not being able to see a home game after seeing many since 1993 and on, and my 6 year old son at the time not be able to see a game during his early basketball informative years, I went ahead and did it! After taking my son to a game that first year and finding out that in school it was all he talked and wrote about, it was all worth it from that point on.

zagfan07
10-31-2007, 09:40 AM
You also need to remember that 1200 of those seats are student tickets, which are free. That only leaves 4800 seats that are actually being paid for at each game. It'll take a little longer to pay that building off than you think.

The athletics department also wanted to make that building feel a little like the old Kennel. Too many times you see schools (i.e. Syracuse or UNLV) that build huge arenas and end up losing the intimate feeling of being close to the action. An 8,000 seat arena would be tougher to create the feeling that everyone in the building is "on the court."

Personally, I think the size is just right and although I won't be seeing a game any time soon in K2 because I'm a recent graduate living in Seattle, I'll catch my 1 or 2 games a year and pay a little more for those tickets. I'd much rather have a high demand for the tickets than lose the homecourt advantage that has become one of the best, if not THE BEST in the nation.

SWZag
10-31-2007, 09:56 AM
I believe that season tickets is where you can make a lot of money. But from the quote below from the gozags.com website, it appears that season ticket holders are the ones who are privy to tickets.


The McCarthey Athletic Center is considered sold out for all men's basketball games with all seats committed to season ticket holders, GU students, GU employees, contractual commitments to sponsors and the visiting team. After distributing tickets to GU students, staff and faculty, or if we have any not used by a sponsor or the visiting team, if there are any tickets remaining, we will sell them on a single game basis the Wednesday prior to the home game (see schedule below). Often times, all we have available are single seats.

People complained that the crowds last year were at times horrendous, and I think maybe this has something to do with it. If you have the same season tickets holders year after year, they soon become "immune" to the dramatic excitement of a Gonzaga basketball game, and just sit there. I would like if they would have a section for season ticket holders, but then have a majority for the students and for those who want to buy single game tickets. If someone only has the opportunity to go to one or two games a year, they are pretty much left in the dark unless they want to spend and arm and a leg. For those of us who want to fly in for a single game have to work magic to get tickets, and spend a ton on top of airline tickets.

How many tickets are usually available for single games? Someone mentioned that it was impossible to get tickets for the game at Memphis this year and stated that it was (Memphis) season ticket holders who had them all. I think that's silly. Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree and don't know the whole of it, but this is my perception.

Anyone have information that helps me think that what is stated above is not correct, that season ticket holders don't control ticket availability?

SWZag

IrishZag
10-31-2007, 10:12 AM
You also need to remember that 1200 of those seats are student tickets, which are free. That only leaves 4800 seats that are actually being paid for at each game. It'll take a little longer to pay that building off than you think.


If by free you mean roughly $30,000 in tuition and other expenses.

zagfan07
10-31-2007, 10:38 AM
If by free you mean roughly $30,000 in tuition and other expenses.

And that diploma you receive will make it all worthwhile once you're making $100,000 per year in the business world down the road. I'm tired of hearing that excuse when talking about not having to pay for student tickets. It's a priveledge many students take for granted. $30,000 a year for tuition at Gonzaga is a bargain. #2 rated in the west I believe. Head down to Santa Clara or San Diego and try paying upwards of $40,000 or $45,000 a year.

After sitting in the front row of the student section for the past two years, my viewing experience is going to change drastically for Zag games from here on out. Ahhh, the memories... It was a great move that the University kept so many student seats for the new arena. They could have easily cut down the student section and sold some of those tickets at high values to people in the community. GU does a great job of recognizing how important support from the student body is for the Zags. Can't wait for the season to start, it's going to be a great year!

bulldogshawn
10-31-2007, 11:13 AM
If by free you mean roughly $30,000 in tuition and other expenses.
The 30k is for your degree, the price students pay for tickets is not monetary but comes in the form of emotion and team support. Money is not the only way to pay for things.

7ICoug
10-31-2007, 01:25 PM
:link:

http://www.spokesmanreview.com/zags/

Just put the story number in and its fall free :D

HOOTER
10-31-2007, 02:36 PM
Here's a hypothetical question: If you were house shopping and your wife was pregnant with triplets, would you buy a small, single bedroom house? I'm going to assume that most of you would respond with a resounding "No way!". You would find a way, even if money was tight, to buy a house that could sustain a growing family for many years to come.
That brings me to my next question: What if this trend continues? What if the Zag's success continues to grow at a rapid rate year after year? How long do we have before the Zag's outgrow K2 just like they did with the first Kennel? That is, if they haven't already. The school is growing, the community is growing, and with it the fan base is growing. How much of a consideration was the seemingly inevitable future success of this program?

ZagNut08
10-31-2007, 02:41 PM
apples and oranges imo.

By the way, there were about 500 extra student tickets available after the first ticket distribution...

roxdoc
10-31-2007, 03:50 PM
Its easy to second guess after the fact. My thought: It was at the planning stage, a lack of money and a lack of vision of where things were going. Not to throw rocks, thats just how it was.

Now with donors considering commitments of $100k over 5 years just to get into consideration for possible season tickets the money is maybe less of an issue, ie 100 donors gives you $10 million over 5 years. Don't know if you could find 100, but maybe 200 for half of that etc.

Its too bad they didn't go for a design that could be expanded in future years if it was warranted. The Spokane arena is that way, with ~ 2000 extra seat potential. If the Kennel could be expanded in that magnitude it might make sense now.

However, all in all it is water under the bridge. But you still have to consider: There is tremendous local support for the Zags. Its everywhere in the greater Spokane area. How long will this last if the awareness grows that only a select few are allowed to see them live? Will WSU try to take back "its" turf with more games in the Arena? Maybe I am being too provocative here - just thoughts.

Spike94
10-31-2007, 04:22 PM
One thing that I haven't see here is this. As much as we would like to think our success will last forever it won't. And because of this GU needs to look at the fact that the K2 has to pay for itself in these times too. Yes K2 is very hard to get to and yes season tickets are impossible to get, but that would be true no matter how big an arena we have right now. Isn't there a huge waiting list? However, we also don't want 5,000 empty seats when we have a dry spell. As for how are places building huge arenas, many are partnerships with cities and used for pro sports as well (ie... Ohio State, NC State, Memphis) Anyway I hope I haven't committed a sin by saying GU will have a dry spell, but it is the truth.

Zag By the Bay
11-03-2007, 10:06 AM
When the Mac was first built, I was disapointed with how many fans that it can hold, but now I am fine with the decision of the admin. GU has a completely different campus and has added or updated many of its buildings/facilities in the past 10 years. All of these upgrades cost money and it foolish to build something that you may not be able to pay for. GU was in hock long before the Zag started to become a popular hoop team.
I will concede that GU is the game in town, but let's get real there is no way that the Zags would draw a full house every season IF they were not winning.
Look back in the Fitz years when we averaged 17-18 wins per season, did we have sell outs every game? No...We didn't even sell out all our WCC home games back then. The Kennel Club back in the late 80's and early 90's was about 40-50 memebers strong each game at best. Let's win a couple NCAA championships before we start comparing ourselves to the Elite teams. To put it in prospective, Cameron Indoor holds 9,100 fans and our program, while climbing up the ranks, we are no where near Duke, Kentucky, North Carolina, Indiana etc as far as fan loyalty. Don't believe me, try getting a ticket from a scalper at Cameron on game day...nearly impossible.
I am proud to be a GU Alum and think that the improvements to our campus have been top drawer. Go Zags!