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former1dog
02-12-2018, 08:18 AM
Any inside info on how Ayayi is progressing? Was just watching some highlight video's and the kid is smoking fast!

jchocolate99
02-12-2018, 08:55 AM
Yeah, I've been meaning to post this myself... Seems like we normally get some type of tidbits on how the redshirts are progressing.

GonzagasaurusFlex
02-12-2018, 09:19 AM
Yeah, I've been meaning to post this myself... Seems like we normally get some type of tidbits on how the redshirts are progressing.

Yeah, I’d love to hear insider info as to how both Ayayi and Clarke (and Wade) are doing in practice vs the starters. Seems to me we used to occasionally here some such reports in past years.

sittingon50
02-12-2018, 11:20 AM
Don't have anything on Ayayi, been meaning to ask.

Since flex asked I can say that I did ask a source about Clarke about a month ago & he said he's doing very well and should really help the Zags next year.

GoZags
02-12-2018, 12:05 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qrriKcwvlY

Goshzagit
02-12-2018, 12:11 PM
Re: Ayayi.

I posted THIS (http://guboards.spokesmanreview.com/showthread.php?62073-Norvell-for-Point-Guard&p=1353799#post1353799) lil update awhile back.

sittingon50
02-12-2018, 12:54 PM
Thanks zagit.

Think I missed that the 1st time around.

raise the zag
12-18-2018, 07:39 AM
2nd time this year, I heard Ayayi continues to impress on the court in practice.

I have heard he is the best scoring guard in the lane i.e. asmooth floater. A heck of a good defender too.

Apparently, his understanding of offense and plays isn't clicking. And turnover prone.

Hopefully it clicks this off-season.

He is legit 6'5"-6'6", speed demon, 6'9" wingspan, with incredible touch in the lane.

Again, he looks good in drills, one of the best, even highlight plays in open scrimmaging, but when it comes to walk throughs & running plays....well....way behind.

Still only 18. Won't turn 19 til February! Many of these guys were 19 before they step foot on campus.

former1dog
12-18-2018, 08:20 AM
2nd time this year, I heard Ayayi continues to impress on the court in practice.

I have heard he is the best scoring guard in the lane i.e. asmooth floater. A heck of a good defender too.

Apparently, his understanding of offense and plays isn't clicking. And turnover prone.

Hopefully it clicks this off-season.

He is legit 6'5"-6'6", speed demon, 6'9" wingspan, with incredible touch in the lane.

Again, he looks good in drills, one of the best, even highlight plays in open scrimmaging, but when it comes to walk throughs & running plays....well....way behind.

Still only 18. Won't turn 19 til February! Many of these guys were 19 before they step foot on campus.

This jibes with the little we have seen of Ayayi on the court this season. Seems lost and not knowing what he is doing.

Spink
12-18-2018, 08:46 AM
If and when it clicks his frame is amazing! Physically he is the man!

hooter73
12-18-2018, 08:57 AM
Ive pretty well assumed as much seeing as how Foster, with much less of a vaunted skill set coming in is the one to get the back up minutes. Joel should be a great player if eh can gain an instinctual understanding of the system. He is at such a disadvantage being in a foreign country and so young. I hope it clicks for him but we've seen before where sometimes it just doesnt and they transfer out to a free form system.

sittingon50
12-18-2018, 10:55 AM
Am hoping that he can get some run in these next 6 games.

zag67
12-18-2018, 12:16 PM
I am hoping that Ayayi and Foster both get major minutes during the net 3 weeks. By doing this the coaches will be preparing the guards for next year. They could really help allow the starters to get some rest during the WCC games (also Crandall will help) . We do not want them burnt out come tournament time.

MDABE80
12-18-2018, 12:43 PM
Superior athlete and has defensive skills. He must be having trouble learning the system. Love to see him full of confidence.

stretch
12-18-2018, 04:07 PM
Superior athlete and has defensive skills. He must be having trouble learning the system. Love to see him full of confidence.

It's a waste for talent like this to be stuck riding the bench. Few is stuck on a 7 man rotation right now. Starters' minutes are taking a toll going down the stretch in tight games.

Coming out of Europe Joel was one of the top guards in his age group and he showed that special talent again last June in the FIBA Europe U18, making the all tournament team in a 3rd place finish for France.

MDABE80
12-18-2018, 04:14 PM
Well, Stretch, now that we're in the "softer" part of the season, Few would be smart to get him some minutes with a future in mind. He's got the goods but I'm thinking it'll take some time. I'd work him till he got the point.....but........I'm not coach Few!!

Worthington
12-18-2018, 09:10 PM
Joel had some good minutes tonight in the first half. He's our quickest player by far and it shows in how he can move his feet on defense. With added strength he could terrorize opposing guards. Was disappointed that Few yanked him quickly after a turnover where he mishandled the ball. Have to let a young player play through a mistake like that, in my opinion.

sittingon50
12-18-2018, 10:12 PM
Joel had some good minutes tonight in the first half. He's our quickest player by far and it shows in how he can move his feet on defense. With added strength he could terrorize opposing guards. Was disappointed that Few yanked him quickly after a turnover where he mishandled the ball. Have to let a young player play through a mistake like that, in my opinion.

Agreed.

MDABE80
12-18-2018, 10:26 PM
12 min 4 pts a couple boards. I focused on him. Kept losing his man on defense. Trailing him instead of keeping him between himself and the basket. It’s a start. Looked like he belonged.

White lightning
12-19-2018, 03:24 AM
I was sitting 2 rows up by bench side of the basket. Coaches a couple of time had trouble getting him in the game during free throw stoppage. He just isn't up to game speed from the bench to playing D. Has his warmup on waiting by the scoring table before taking it off. Twice the coach picked it up where he left it on the floor. I'm pulling for him he seems like a good kid.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Outraged
12-19-2018, 04:08 AM
I hope he gets it. He has the tools. If he can provide instant defense disruption and control the ball it would be a difference maker. It also allows others a little more rest and the ability to play more intense. We just need to improve 2 or 3 percent in areas to go all the way.

TexasZagFan
12-19-2018, 04:54 AM
I hope he gets it. He has the tools. If he can provide instant defense disruption and control the ball it would be a difference maker. It also allows others a little more rest and the ability to play more intense. We just need to improve 2 or 3 percent in areas to go all the way.

There's another 3-4 games where he'll likely get plenty of minutes. He should show demonstrable improvement over the next few weeks.

Birddog
12-19-2018, 05:29 AM
It's a waste for talent like this to be stuck riding the bench. Few is stuck on a 7 man rotation right now. Starters' minutes are taking a toll going down the stretch in tight games.

Coming out of Europe Joel was one of the top guards in his age group and he showed that special talent again last June in the FIBA Europe U18, making the all tournament team in a 3rd place finish for France.

I see where you got your handle. I saw it differently.

thespywhozaggedme
12-19-2018, 05:40 AM
There's another 13-14 games where he'll likely get plenty of minutes. He should show demonstrable improvement over the next few weeks.

Fixed it for accuracy. lol

vandalzag
12-19-2018, 07:09 AM
It's a waste for talent like this to be stuck riding the bench. Few is stuck on a 7 man rotation right now. Starters' minutes are taking a toll going down the stretch in tight games.

Coming out of Europe Joel was one of the top guards in his age group and he showed that special talent again last June in the FIBA Europe U18, making the all tournament team in a 3rd place finish for France.

I must have passed out during the game. Which of his 2 baskets showed the "special talent" that Few is hiding on the bench?Or was it the missed 3?

former1dog
12-19-2018, 10:06 AM
I was happy he got 12 minutes of playing time and that he showed a little better in this game. Looked a little more comfortable, a little more aware of what he was supposed to do.

I would also like Coach Few to give a little more leash to some of these guys who need development in terms of not pulling them as soon as they make a mistake.

ProVeeZag
12-19-2018, 10:22 AM
I was happy he got 12 minutes of playing time and that he showed a little better in this game. Looked a little more comfortable, a little more aware of what he was supposed to do.

I would also like Coach Few to give a little more leash to some of these guys who need development in terms of not pulling them as soon as they make a mistake.

Yes, especially with 15-20 points lead (or more!). These next games prior to WCC play are the time to do it.

Larryzag
12-19-2018, 10:32 AM
As soon as he made that turnover I thought "come on Mark leave him in" but someone jumped up immediately from the bench to come in. I think it was Brian who went over and talked with him as soon as he sat down. Who am I to criticize the coaches? I just think in a game where we are going to win no question, then give some more leash. Hey even Cory got pulled for sloppy play and he didn't start the second half.

sittingon50
12-19-2018, 10:51 AM
Cory (probably) didn't start the 2nd half because of 3 fouls in the 1st.

Birddog
12-19-2018, 01:27 PM
Giving the hook to players after making mistakes is a technique used by many coaches.

bdmiller7
12-19-2018, 01:48 PM
As soon as he made that turnover I thought "come on Mark leave him in" but someone jumped up immediately from the bench to come in. I think it was Brian who went over and talked with him as soon as he sat down. Who am I to criticize the coaches? I just think in a game where we are going to win no question, then give some more leash. Hey even Cory got pulled for sloppy play and he didn't start the second half.

I liked pulling a kid and talking to them right then about what they did and what would have been a better play. Not a punishment, but able to teach while it's still fresh in their mind.

roxdoc
12-19-2018, 01:51 PM
In the "old days" Few was notorious for benching someone immediately for a mistake. Some on the board felt that this had a residual negative effect on the further development of a few players. Who knows - maybe they were not that good to begin with. We have not seen it for a while so I kind of cringe.

El Zag
12-19-2018, 02:48 PM
It's called negative reinforcement. Psychology 101 says positive works better.

Birddog
12-19-2018, 03:17 PM
It's called negative reinforcement. Psychology 101 says positive works better.

I don't know, my parents employed negative reinforcement from time to time and I remember the bar of Ivory soap as being quite effective.

ZagsObserver
12-19-2018, 03:26 PM
It's called negative reinforcement. Psychology 101 says positive works better.

Or it could be that he just isn’t good enough. He’s been here long enough not to look lost. Admitting the reality of it can be hard, but he comes off the bench after Foster. That’s tough.

JPtheBeasta
12-19-2018, 03:29 PM
I kid like Ayayi with tons of talent may need this type of coaching, because mistakes like that in practice may be the only thing keeping him from playing more. This is a Top-10 college basketball team, after all, and certain standards of play do need to be met.

zag67
12-19-2018, 04:04 PM
I think that Ayayi, Foster, and Ravet may end up being the set of guards we have to depend on for next year. Hopefully Norvell will be the leader of these guards. Yes they are going to try and get another solid point guard but if not I think we will be better than people think. We would have Norvell as the solid all around player and the rest would play depending on the needs. Ravet would be a 3 point shooter. Ayayi would be the speed defender and slasher to the basket. Lastly I think that Foster may be a solid player in multiple areas.

During the rest of this year and in the summer both (Ayayi and Foster) are going to walk away with areas they need to improve. Most years we see Few trim the playing down to a solid 7 or 8 players. When the following year has players already to play, this works fine. This year I think that we will see some of that, but also working with these 2 guards to prepare them for being productive next year. We will be seeing them play during the first half with the starters so that the coaches can work the videos and show them what to do and where they should be. Because of the schedule, we have not been able to see them play very much. but I think we will be seeing much more of them during the rest of the year. This is going to be their trial for minutes next year. They may not shoot very much because both of them know there are more shooters on the court.

Yes, I think that Perkins, Norvell, Crandall, Kispert, Fili, Tillie, Clark, and Rui will be the core. BUt Ayayi and Foster will get major minutes merged with them to prepare them for next year.

Again this is just my opinion. Because

Reborn
12-19-2018, 09:02 PM
I was happy he got 12 minutes of playing time and that he showed a little better in this game. Looked a little more comfortable, a little more aware of what he was supposed to do.

I would also like Coach Few to give a little more leash to some of these guys who need development in terms of not pulling them as soon as they make a mistake.

I totally agree. I really like ayayi, and I feel he's going to be really good as time goes on. I thought he really fit in with the team, and was a pretty good contributer last night. He had very positive minutes. Hope he keeps it up.

WallaWallaZag
12-19-2018, 09:20 PM
what's interesting to me about ayayi is that you seldom see a kid with his level of athleticism have such a poor vertical...i wonder if that will eventually come with more muscle strength.

GeorgiaZagFan
12-19-2018, 11:34 PM
It's called negative reinforcement. Psychology 101 says positive works better.

What motivates one person doesn't always work on another. Some kids respond better to a kick in the behind while others do better with a pat on the back. The great coaches understand this and are able to deal with these differences without the players feeling they are being treated differently.

Bogozags
12-19-2018, 11:49 PM
I don't know, my parents employed negative reinforcement from time to time and I remember the bar of Ivory soap as being quite effective.



All this time I thought I was the only one!

Maybe this is a NW reinforcement method as my dad was from Everett!

Mantua
12-20-2018, 12:30 AM
Joel has speed and quickness. If he can cut down on making errors he might be unleashed like he was in some of the FIBA games.

Martin Centre Mad Man
12-20-2018, 01:49 AM
Ayayi was very young when he joined the program and he has a language barrier to work through. Those are two challenges that might take some time. He could have a “Year Three” breakthrough similar to Rui’s and be a really great player.

zag67
12-20-2018, 05:39 AM
Good call Martin. Ayayi shows super potential

raise the zag
12-20-2018, 05:44 AM
what's interesting to me about ayayi is that you seldom see a kid with his level of athleticism have such a poor vertical...i wonder if that will eventually come with more muscle strength.

partly due to lacking muscle strengh in lower body. his legs are rail thin.

however, its also due to his odd jumping motion. I've never seen anything like it, and commented on this phenomenon during FIBA play this Summer.

No matter if Joel is running full speed, slashing in the lane, or doing a layup, he jumps off BOTH and/or TWO feet. Most people only do that when planted or jump stop and elevate, etc. Not Joel, always two feet even in motion. Its rather unique and limits his vertical, no doubt.

I assume as easy as Joel blazes past defenders, he probably get his shot blocked due to this odd jumping motion.

Watch Ayayi next couple games, and it will become very noticeable.

Also, in regards to our young guys receiving playing time, its just as much about getting the starters much-needed rest when up 25-30 pts as much as it is pulling them. No harm/shame in letting them give up a few points getting more run while more importantly, getting our main guys R & R.

thespywhozaggedme
12-20-2018, 08:02 AM
what's interesting to me about ayayi is that you seldom see a kid with his level of athleticism have such a poor vertical...i wonder if that will eventually come with more muscle strength.

We talked about that very thing in the summer FIBA thread about him and Petrusev. Joel, for whatever reason is a 2 legged jumper. It's really odd.

thespywhozaggedme
12-20-2018, 08:03 AM
partly due to lacking muscle strengh in lower body. his legs are rail thin.

however, its also due to his odd jumping motion. I've never seen anything like it, and commented on this phenomenon during FIBA play this Summer.

No matter if Joel is running full speed, slashing in the lane, or doing a layup, he jumps off BOTH and/or TWO feet. Most people only do that when planted or jump stop and elevate, etc. Not Joel, always two feet even in motion. Its rather unique and limits his vertical, no doubt.

I assume as easy as Joel blazes past defenders, he probably get his shot blocked due to this odd jumping motion.

Watch Ayayi next couple games, and it will become very noticeable.

Also, in regards to our young guys receiving playing time, its just as much about getting the starters much-needed rest when up 25-30 pts as much as it is pulling them. No harm/shame in letting them give up a few points getting more run while more importantly, getting our main guys R & R.

Ha, didn't see your post when i wrote mine.

WallaWallaZag
12-20-2018, 08:13 AM
We talked about that very thing in the summer FIBA thread about him and Petrusev. Joel, for whatever reason is a 2 legged jumper. It's really odd.

being a two-legged jumper doesn't limit your vertical...brandon clarke is a two-legged jumper and so is zion primarily. it's not ideal for a guard because it hinders you on drives as it slows you down and you lose horizontal distance, but shouldn't impact vertical.

raise the zag
12-20-2018, 08:32 AM
being a two-legged jumper doesn't limit your vertical...brandon clarke is a two-legged jumper and so is zion primarily. it's not ideal for a guard because it hinders you on drives as it slows you down and you lose horizontal distance, but shouldn't impact vertical.

Everyone is technically a two legged jumper, but this is vastly different.

Night and day comparisons of jumping style.

Almost everyone jumps off two feet when stopped or jumping to rebound or sink. That's very normal natural motion.

It's hard to explain was discussed a ton during FIBA fame day threads.

I've seen like one other player, ever, jump off 2 feet when in motion or full speed.

It's unique. And definitely hinders his MOMENTUM and natural flow, mechanics of elevating while moving.

And watching Clarke all season long, and Zion, they do not jump off 2 feet. Far from it. If they have secured an offensive rebound, or around the basket with no one around, then yes, they leap off two feet simultaneously. And not to mention they are a few inches taller than Joel.

Ayayi has a very unique way of elevating. Watch him closely as maybe we will see more transition or slashes in upcoming games.

TravelinZag
12-20-2018, 08:58 AM
Interesting analysis which taught me a couple of things. Suspect the coaches know; they don’t pick up much from this forum, if they read it. However, they do see the lads every day, and we don’t know what they do in practice to develop individuals as well as the team. But we know it happens, as we see the development, and development is phenomenal in players they believe have the potential!

thespywhozaggedme
12-20-2018, 09:22 AM
being a two-legged jumper doesn't limit your vertical...brandon clarke is a two-legged jumper and so is zion primarily. it's not ideal for a guard because it hinders you on drives as it slows you down and you lose horizontal distance, but shouldn't impact vertical.

Sure it does. Try it out yourself; get a running start and jump off of your dominant foot. Then get the same running start and jump off of both feet simultaneously. There's a HUGE difference. Joel runs and jumps off of both feet at the same time. It's really odd.

23dpg
12-20-2018, 10:08 AM
Some people are just built to be two legged jumpers. I am. Just could never get as high jumping off of one leg. Weird, I know.
FTR, Silas Melson was definitely a two footed jumper and he could get up.
Not ideal but I think it's very hard to change, maybe impossible.

ZagsGoZags
12-20-2018, 10:28 AM
many top gymnasts would break the world record in the high jump by a considerable margin, if they were allowed to jump with two feet.

A track coach Duane Hartman told me that. He roomed with Steve Prefontaine in Oregon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBCKQevaEmw&feature=youtu.be

Zagceo
12-20-2018, 10:37 AM
Gymnast has a springy floor but still. It’s about speed strength

https://youtu.be/yBCKQevaEmw

WallaWallaZag
12-20-2018, 04:08 PM
Sure it does. Try it out yourself; get a running start and jump off of your dominant foot. Then get the same running start and jump off of both feet simultaneously. There's a HUGE difference. Joel runs and jumps off of both feet at the same time. It's really odd.

not talking about a full speed running jump...almost everyone has a better vertical off two feet. ayayi can't get up even when he jumps from a standstill like when he gets the ball right under the basket. he had a layup in the game where he barely got off the floor...which is mind-boggling for 6'5 and super athletic in every other aspect. he wasn't running, so that wasn't even a factor.