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View Full Version : Withers: Just who are the Zags this Year?



sittingon50
01-29-2018, 05:58 PM
http://en.bloguru.com/GloryHounds/316487/just-who-are-the-zags-this-year

Martin Centre Mad Man
01-29-2018, 07:17 PM
But numbers like .376 -- opponent three-point percentage (as opposed to .290 a year ago) -- are a screaming alarm that this team, on the wrong day in March, could be the first in a decade at Gonzaga to lose a first-round NCAA game. That three-point defense is statistically poorer than any in the 19-year streak of NCAA appearances.

Yup.

MontanaCoyote
01-29-2018, 08:20 PM
Who are the Zag's this year? A team in search of itself.

MDABE80
01-29-2018, 08:47 PM
Leaderless. Need a Nigel. Wither's is smart. The fancy derived statistics just aren't matching what is seen on the court. There are reasons for that.

Zags11
01-29-2018, 10:16 PM
Leaderless. Need a Nigel. Wither's is smart. The fancy derived statistics just aren't matching what is seen on the court. There are reasons for that.

Nigel could of stayed. He didn't. Time to move on.

Zags11
01-29-2018, 10:16 PM
Leaderless. Need a Nigel. Wither's is smart. The fancy derived statistics just aren't matching what is seen on the court. There are reasons for that.

Need a karno who can plug up middle.

MontanaCoyote
01-29-2018, 10:27 PM
Need a karno who can plug up middle.

YUP! Never miss your water till the well runs dry.

MDABE80
01-29-2018, 10:30 PM
Bud doesn't agree. Each time I read an installment, I am genuinely amazed how he can see the same thing I do, Jazz does as do a whole host of folks on this message board. But when it comes to affirming the obvious, nobody speaks up!! lol Somebody launches highly processed data to prove a point...when all ya need is a pair of Bud Wither's eyes.

Zags11
01-29-2018, 11:17 PM
Bud doesn't agree. Each time I read an installment, I am genuinely amazed how he can see the same thing I do, Jazz does as do a whole host of folks on this message board. But when it comes to affirming the obvious, nobody speaks up!! lol Somebody launches highly processed data to prove a point...when all ya need is a pair of Bud Wither's eyes.

Doesn't mean bud withers is correct cuz he is a sportswriter. He has his opinions like everyone else. The facts he stated is the 3pt defense. I stated that in numerous threads. You realize that fews 3pt defense has always been sub average but last yr.

Do you know why? It wasnt Nigel or guards as much as karno and Collins clogging the middle. This which let the guards as a whole not need to sag as much.

MDABE80
01-30-2018, 12:36 AM
Bud's been at it 45 years..........he knows a bit about ball.

webspinnre
01-30-2018, 12:38 AM
Exactly, it's Few's philosophy to make the 2 pointers difficult, and risk giving up 3s.

TravelinZag
01-30-2018, 01:06 AM
Bus'd title says it all: "just who are the Zags this year?" The conflicting data reveal others have the question, too, but not the answer. Coaches have to be banging their heads. How many complete (or nearly so) games have they played this year? Two? Or three if you count the Villanova loss -- completely bad. Is it just a lack of leadership? Or a lack of desire and focus? There is time to accomplish amazing things. But do these talented guys want it enough to focus and work for it?

jazzdelmar
01-30-2018, 05:14 AM
Bus'd title says it all: "just who are the Zags this year?" The conflicting data reveal others have the question, too, but not the answer. Coaches have to be banging their heads. How many complete (or nearly so) games have they played this year? Two? Or three if you count the Villanova loss -- completely bad. Is it just a lack of leadership? Or a lack of desire and focus? There is time to accomplish amazing things. But do these talented guys want it enough to focus and work for it?

It's a cocktail of flaws: no alpha dogs (last year there 3 maybe 4, I wd include Mathews), 3 all but raw frosh (I incl Rui), players who lose focus at key times, don't play hard all game, and are currently out of position.

thebigsmoove
01-30-2018, 06:12 AM
The biggest issue is youth. We are not nearly as experienced as a whole as we were a year ago. Especially in the middle. This team has shown flashes of what its capable of, but will it go deep in march? All depends on the level of play and the match-ups we receive in those few weekends in march. This team could lose in the first round or it could get back to the final four. Obviously something in the middle is more likely.

mgadfly
01-30-2018, 06:59 AM
I don't believe most of the theories here. Leadership and heart and focus and blah blah... They have less talent and experience and are still 19-4. They have faced more adversity than last year and have faced it pretty well.

The difference is talent and matchups. Last year GU had so much talent they could flex and matchup with any type of team we faced. They went big, we went bigger. They went quick, and we had long talented guards all over the court. Options, talent, flexibility. Last year we had the option of having a quick athletic center or a giant mismatch center. No matter how good a 6'9" center is, they aren't Karnowski. And no matter how good Perkins is (and he has been pretty good), he doesn't create the mismatches that NWG created just by being a big and strong guard.

While this team is still really talented it isn't at the same level as last year. It is also one that is stuck with one style more than any team in recent years because it lacks real options. To me we are kind of like a football team that throws the ball 55 times per game. You can be really good, but at some point an opposing coach is going to hang a loss on you just because they know you can't run the ball and can better game plan for you.

GoZags
01-30-2018, 07:25 AM
This team could lose in the first round or it could get back to the final four. .

I'm not worried about making the dance .... and it appears the Zags may shake Wisconsin (10-13) from the consecutive tourney streak list ...
http://mcubed.net/ncaab/strkr64c.shtml

I'm very hopeful this year's Zags will continue this incredible streak of winning at least a game in the big dance.
http://mcubed.net/ncaab/strkr32c.shtml

I'm cautiously optimistic that with two good games, this "streak" to the 2nd weekend will continue. And the school ahead of us (Wisconsin) would have to have a miracle to continue their current streak.
http://mcubed.net/ncaab/strkr16c.shtml

Depending on matchups and how the guys are playing (and ... IF Larsen and Kispert are BAAACK) ... this would be fun ...
http://mcubed.net/ncaab/strkr08c.shtml

Years ago, the Mariners' slogan was "Anything Can Happen" and that's how I'm viewing this season's Zag squad ... "Anything CAN Happen"
http://mcubed.net/ncaab/strkr04c.shtml
http://mcubed.net/ncaab/strkr02c.shtml


http://mcubed.net/ncaab/strkr16c.shtml

ZenZag
01-30-2018, 07:51 AM
Need a karno who can plug up middle.

What may be of benefit in this argument is to inquire...do teams that are great 3pt defenders have effective bigs plugging up the middle? Great rim protectors like we had last year. I can see how having Karno/Collins did allow the guards to get in shooter's grills more effectively. But were the guards, as a group, also quicker as a group last year with NWG and Matthews? That is also a possibility.

thebigsmoove
01-30-2018, 08:06 AM
...They have less talent and experience and are still 19-4...

Completely disagree on Talent. This team is very talented. Just young.

TheGonzagaFactor
01-30-2018, 08:08 AM
Exactly, it's Few's philosophy to make the 2 pointers difficult, and risk giving up 3s.

I don't think it's his philosophy as much as necessity. Our personnel typically makes us go that route. Last year was rare in having four quality bigs, including a lottery pick off the bench (maybe two).

What I really want to know is how does this 3pt defense and defense overall compare to our defenses BESIDES last year?

We are all going to be disappointed forever if we expect another defense like that. It wasn't just #1 nationally, it was a great all-time defense.

MontanaCoyote
01-30-2018, 08:18 AM
[QUOTE=thebigsmoove;1355446]The biggest issue is youth. We are not nearly as experienced as a whole as we were a year ago. Especially in the middle. This team has shown flashes of what its capable of, but will it go deep in march? All depends on the level of play and the match-ups we receive in those few weekends in march. This team could lose in the first round or it could get back to the final four. Obviously something in the middle is more likely.[/QUOTE

Agree. This year I think a lot of teams "could lose in the first round or...get....to the final four." Anticipating a real crapshoot
and some super upsets.

TheGonzagaFactor
01-30-2018, 08:34 AM
I think we were spoiled by last year's team. We had talent and experience. This year, just talent.

When Collins declared after Nigel, I was sure we'd miss the tournament. I was very excited for Rui, Kispert, and Norvell - with Tillie and Perkins taking on expanded roles, but with so many first year guys it was obvious that consistency would be an issue. Guys have to find their roles and deal with the challenges a season brings, and I thought we'd have too many new guys playing prime roles.

These guys have shown flashes of brilliance (24-0 run vs Texas) and 10 minute stretches where Whitworth could probably outscore them (the pathetic, inexcusable collapse vs Texas, not getting back on D and handing Florida that game, @ SDSU, giving the game to SMC at home, most of USF home game).

There are times that this team frustrates me more than I thought possible, but overall they are better than I thought they'd be.

We lost Wiltjer/Sabonis then followed it up with losing Karno, NWG and Collins. Most decent to good P5 programs would be in for a .500 season after back to back years of departures like that. We've replaced 4 starters each of the last two seasons. The last time we didn't replace 4 starters, we lost one for the season 5 games in.

How spoiled are we? People talk like we've already received a bid for the Dance. It's not automatic. "This team could lose in the first round" or "they could get a bad seed" are sentiments that I see a lot of on twitter and on this board. I don't see any reason to look past the next 6 weeks, nothing has been earned yet.

I'll be happy to make it. This team is one bad loss away from the bubble, and that should have already happened against UND at least. To me it's basically the team from two years ago but without Sabonis and Wiltjer. I said all February two years ago: "IF we make it, we will be dangerous" ... I see this team in the same light. No guarantee that they're in, but if they earn their way they will be hot enough as a team and have the personnel to compete.

There is crazy growth potential on this roster and we are seeing a lot of individual progress, it's just too many new guys at once to have a smooth, cohesive unit that plays well together for 40 minutes. Time will tell.

TexasZagFan
01-30-2018, 08:38 AM
I don't think it's his philosophy as much as necessity. Our personnel typically makes us go that route. Last year was rare in having four quality bigs, including a lottery pick off the bench (maybe two).

What I really want to know is how does this 3pt defense and defense overall compare to our defenses BESIDES last year?

We are all going to be disappointed forever if we expect another defense like that. It wasn't just #1 nationally, it was a great all-time defense.

Our 3 point defense is not as bad as what we displayed against the Shockers (I know, there were extenuating factors). That was the least of my worries, considering how badly WSU shot from 3 in their previous game against Pitt.

IOW, it's a crap shoot.

TexasZagFan
01-30-2018, 08:42 AM
I think we were spoiled by last year's team. We had talent and experience. This year, just talent.

When Collins declared after Nigel, I was sure we'd miss the tournament. I was very excited for Rui, Kispert, and Norvell - with Tillie and Perkins taking on expanded roles, but with so many first year guys it was obvious that consistency would be an issue. Guys have to find their roles and deal with the challenges a season brings, and I thought we'd have too many new guys playing prime roles.

These guys have shown flashes of brilliance (24-0 run vs Texas) and 10 minute stretches where Whitworth could probably outscore them (the pathetic, inexcusable collapse vs Texas, not getting back on D and handing Florida that game, @ SDSU, giving the game to SMC at home, most of USF home game).

There are times that this team frustrates me more than I thought possible, but overall they are better than I thought they'd be.

We lost Wiltjer/Sabonis then followed it up with losing Karno, NWG and Collins. Most decent to good P5 programs would be in for a .500 season after back to back years of departures like that. We've replaced 4 starters each of the last two seasons. The last time we didn't replace 4 starters, we lost one for the season 5 games in.

How spoiled are we? People talk like we've already received a bid for the Dance. It's not automatic. "This team could lose in the first round" or "they could get a bad seed" are sentiments that I see a lot of on twitter and on this board. I don't see any reason to look past the next 6 weeks, nothing has been earned yet.

I'll be happy to make it. This team is one bad loss away from the bubble, and that should have already happened against UND at least. To me it's basically the team from two years ago but without Sabonis and Wiltjer. I said all February two years ago: "IF we make it, we will be dangerous" ... I see this team in the same light. No guarantee that they're in, but if they earn their way they will be hot enough as a team and have the personnel to compete.

There is crazy growth potential on this roster and we are seeing a lot of individual progress, it's just too many new guys at once to have a smooth, cohesive unit that plays well together for 40 minutes. Time will tell.


Of course we're spoiled. We have 8-10 games remaining for Zach, Corey, and Jacob to mature. I'm looking to these next four games as the springboard to March. I expect a totally different vibe from this team heading into Vegas.

a13coach
01-30-2018, 09:40 AM
Bud's been at it 45 years..........he knows a bit about ball.

But would you hire him as a D-1 basketball coach? Even a WA 4A HS coach? NO! Let's be very clear here...No one on this hoops board can out coach or out recruit MF? Watching and writing about basketball for 45 years does not make someone a better basketball coach, it makes one a pretty good basketball reporter!

mattydog73
01-30-2018, 11:36 AM
Ultimately, this Zags team is one that has been suffering through growing pains alongside lapses in effort and focus. Realistically, they should/could have just one loss (to Nova) but they could not commit to making the easy play on offense or maintaining the 40 minute sustained effort needed on defense. If I had a dollar for every time one of the guards comes out of defensive stance and starts following his man, I would have enough to fund a nice room at the Davenport, dinner at the Palms, and maybe even a Greyhound or two at the baby bar. :p

IMO, the difference between this year's team and last year is the grit to bear down and make play after play on both sides of the ball. Call it leadership, experience, buy in, whatever you will but I have not see that grit and commitment in any of their losses and, for that matter, many individual halves throughout the season. Conjecture of course but, I get the feeling they have it in their head this all should be somehow easier. I attribute that living in the shadow of Karno, NWG and Matthews who were the heavy lifters, the ones who played with Grit so to speak.

Zags11
01-30-2018, 12:01 PM
What may be of benefit in this argument is to inquire...do teams that are great 3pt defenders have effective bigs plugging up the middle? Great rim protectors like we had last year. I can see how having Karno/Collins did allow the guards to get in shooter's grills more effectively. But were the guards, as a group, also quicker as a group last year with NWG and Matthews? That is also a possibility.

I agree. The guards did seem quicker and perhaps longer. I just believe when you have legit 7 footers who clog the paint and push out the guards, it made the difference.

Fews teams sag a lot and challenge the opposition to beat you from 3. It works 80% of the time. The losses in march are usually when a team hits from the outside. This is why last year was so special as you had defense for post that helped the defense on the 3pt line.

So yes guards did help last yr but this years team wouldn't be 280th in 3pt d if had a karno IMO.

mgadfly
01-30-2018, 12:09 PM
Completely disagree on Talent. This team is very talented. Just young.

They are young as a team, I'll give you that, but they are also less talented than last year (which doesn't mean they aren't very talented - just not as talented).

Collins, NWG, and Karno were all blue chip level players that aren't here. Perkins, Silas, and JW3 are not younger than those three were last year. They aren't as talented. And I think they are just as tough, gritty, whatever as those guys we had last season, they just aren't as good (especially at being able to create unique mismatches). I and I think part of being talented is actually having a few guys on the bench that can be counted on in games now (not next year). I think the rotation will prove to be at least one regular contributor less than a year ago.

And I'd also point out that in 2017 we were almost dead last in returning minutes/continuity (323rd nationally). This year, even with the added youngsters, we were 207th. So at least this year's team started the season knowing each other's names.

CDC84
01-30-2018, 03:16 PM
I didn't realize quite how bad that 3 pt. FG% was. I would have thought some of the older teams would've been worse.

I still feel the lack of an upperclassman who is a leader is the number one flaw. If you talk to any reputable basketball coach or college basketball analyst, they will tell you that ANY team, no matter how talented they are, with be inconsistent if they do not have an upperclassman who is a leader. If you need proof of this, look no further than Duke this season, who without question has the most talented roster in the nation. Problem is, Grayson Allen by definition isn't a leader.

Basketball isn't just all about talent, matchups, etc. A good deal of it is psychology. A psychologically weak team will sputter at times.

Zags11
01-30-2018, 03:51 PM
I didn't realize quite how bad that 3 pt. FG% was. I would have thought some of the older teams would've been worse.

I still feel the lack of an upperclassman who is a leader is the number one flaw. If you talk to any reputable basketball coach or college basketball analyst, they will tell you that ANY team, not matter how talented they are, with be inconsistent if they do not have an upperclassman who is a leader. If you need proof of this, look no further than Duke this season, who without question has the most talented roster in the nation. Problem is, Grayson Allen by definition isn't a leader.

Basketball isn't just all about talent, matchups, etc. A good deal of it is psychology. A psychologically weak team will sputter at times.

Sure I agree to a point. I just feel like we are feeling the effects of karno and Collins beings gone.

GrizZAG
01-30-2018, 05:22 PM
Bringing Rui into a more prominent role gradually is throwing an adjustment curve into the flow of this team IMO. Not saying that shouldn't be happening, just that the team dynamic is having to adjust. As Rui develops to a predictable level and the others fully anticipate and trust this team will elevate to another level. Same is true for ZN & CK to a lesser degree. These kind of comfort zone adjustments take time. Hopefully rather quickly at this point.

bballbeachbum
01-30-2018, 06:04 PM
Sure I agree to a point. I just feel like we are feeling the effects of karno and Collins beings gone.

I agree with you without disagreeing on the leadership point, but I'm not convinced the leadership piece is THE answer to the issues as some do, altho an answer.

comparing to last year isn't my favorite thing, but I'll do it again.

the Zags do not have Shem the paint dominator anymore. it affects everything.

I'll just try to illuminate the difference on D.
Last year, Zags could literally game plan to take away both the 3 and the rim. Not one or the other...both. And they did. Out of the zone, the M2M, different D gameplans game to game even. why? because Shem the paint protector, not only with the evolving ideas behind how to play D (force the dribble into the paint to deny open 3s and stay home on the perimeter to deny the drive and kick), but also becasue he helped clean up and contest the mites' penetrations in there, became awesome at altering shots, both hands straight up, one of Al McGuire's aircraft carriers for sure. And to boot, throw in Zach last year off the bench. All of that puts more pressure on the perimeter opposition players big time.

look at this year's squad, it's just not there. said before and still that I'd bet all coaches the Zags face will be preaching to their boys that this is the year to take it hard to the rim on the Zags.
the overhelping D? while early some new young guys seemed to still have their high school ideas on, this to me is more about the fundamental difference in the paint, fundamental. The Zags this year cannot take away the 3 and the rim at the same time! Not many can. Incredible luxury and it showed in the stats, and to the eyes as well last year. Looks like a philosophy change this year to suit personnel as much as individual breakdowns imo. Of course, I don't know that and it would be interesting to hear Few speak to it. Over the last few years, I constantly called out the overhelping because it was NOT needed with Shem in there. This year seems more like what others have mentioned, that it's a pick your poison D for Few each time out this year. I agree with that. It's the biggest difference to me.

And that doesn't even spell out the O side of things, which I hope someone else will do because they are significant as well imo.

and I keep seeing from posters I respect saying that the talent on this year's team is a as much or more on last year's squad, a last year's squad which includes the most winning dude of all time and arguably the best Zag of all time, along with the 1st rounder and also Jordan. To me that just seems like crazy talk, no offense to the posters or to this year's team of guys who replaced the departing players! Maybe they become as talented, but not yet.

I agree with mattydog73 post, and with MontanaCoyote again...this Zag team is a team still in search of itself. Game to game.

And to the team...I enjoy that ride! Thank you

MDABE80
01-30-2018, 07:13 PM
Good post Beach!

Zags11
01-30-2018, 08:55 PM
I agree with you without disagreeing on the leadership point, but I'm not convinced the leadership piece is THE answer to the issues as some do, altho an answer.

comparing to last year isn't my favorite thing, but I'll do it again.

the Zags do not have Shem the paint dominator anymore. it affects everything.

I'll just try to illuminate the difference on D.
Last year, Zags could literally game plan to take away both the 3 and the rim. Not one or the other...both. And they did. Out of the zone, the M2M, different D gameplans game to game even. why? because Shem the paint protector, not only with the evolving ideas behind how to play D (force the dribble into the paint to deny open 3s and stay home on the perimeter to deny the drive and kick), but also becasue he helped clean up and contest the mites' penetrations in there, became awesome at altering shots, both hands straight up, one of Al McGuire's aircraft carriers for sure. And to boot, throw in Zach last year off the bench. All of that puts more pressure on the perimeter opposition players big time.

look at this year's squad, it's just not there. said before and still that I'd bet all coaches the Zags face will be preaching to their boys that this is the year to take it hard to the rim on the Zags.
the overhelping D? while early some new young guys seemed to still have their high school ideas on, this to me is more about the fundamental difference in the paint, fundamental. The Zags this year cannot take away the 3 and the rim at the same time! Not many can. Incredible luxury and it showed in the stats, and to the eyes as well last year. Looks like a philosophy change this year to suit personnel as much as individual breakdowns imo. Of course, I don't know that and it would be interesting to hear Few speak to it. Over the last few years, I constantly called out the overhelping because it was NOT needed with Shem in there. This year seems more like what others have mentioned, that it's a pick your poison D for Few each time out this year. I agree with that. It's the biggest difference to me.

And that doesn't even spell out the O side of things, which I hope someone else will do because they are significant as well imo.

and I keep seeing from posters I respect saying that the talent on this year's team is a as much or more on last year's squad, a last year's squad which includes the most winning dude of all time and arguably the best Zag of all time, along with the 1st rounder and also Jordan. To me that just seems like crazy talk, no offense to the posters or to this year's team of guys who replaced the departing players! Maybe they become as talented, but not yet.

I agree with mattydog73 post, and with MontanaCoyote again...this Zag team is a team still in search of itself. Game to game.

And to the team...I enjoy that ride! Thank you

Pretty solid post. Thank you!

Zagger
01-30-2018, 09:02 PM
The season’s far from over :)

amaronizag
01-30-2018, 10:14 PM
Yes, the season is far from over. We're #1 in the nation in 2pt field goal percentage. We're averaging 88pts per game (88!!!!). Our 3 pt % started good, but for some reason is sucking now.
If we start knocking down some 3's, WE'RE BACK (!!!!) and could run out in the conference. 12-14+ games left in the season to light it up from outside. Let's keep our shot total above 65+ shots per night. Slash, dribble drive, and let 'em fly from 3.
Give 'em all we got. I would rather have Norvell chucking 3's every time down the court than 5-10 scoreless minutes. Green light to all. If we can't stop 'em on defense, out score them. Run and gun.

TexasZagFan
01-30-2018, 10:24 PM
Yes, the season is far from over. We're #1 in the nation in 2pt field goal percentage. We're averaging 88pts per game (88!!!!). Our 3 pt % started good, but for some reason is sucking now.
If we start knocking down some 3's, WE'RE BACK (!!!!) and could run out in the conference. 12-14+ games left in the season to light it up from outside. Let's keep our shot total above 65+ shots per night. Slash, dribble drive, and let 'em fly from 3.
Give 'em all we got. I would rather have Norvell chucking 3's every time down the court than 5-10 scoreless minutes. Green light to all. If we can't stop 'em on defense, out score them. Run and gun.

Run and gun is right. Very few teams have our depth, we should use it to our advantage.

I'm against any player on our team getting more than 30-32 minutes a game. Above that, you're risking your offense from players trying to shoot with tired legs.

raise the zag
01-31-2018, 05:15 AM
So yes guards did help last yr but this years team wouldn't be 280th in 3pt d if had a karno IMO.

Following the USF game, Gonzaga now ranks 309th in 3pt defense.

We are nearly dead last. No joke.

I'm all for "hard 2's" as Coach Few & Lloyd say, yet at some point something has to give...might be time to take a few chances.

No coincidence our losses are due to teams literally shooting 50% or better from 3pt.

Guys, that's unheard of...

Ps. Can't help but notice Monson's LBSU team ranks just below us. Same mantra?

Ekrub
01-31-2018, 07:06 AM
I agree. The guards did seem quicker and perhaps longer. I just believe when you have legit 7 footers who clog the paint and push out the guards, it made the difference.

Fews teams sag a lot and challenge the opposition to beat you from 3. It works 80% of the time. The losses in march are usually when a team hits from the outside. This is why last year was so special as you had defense for post that helped the defense on the 3pt line.

So yes guards did help last yr but this years team wouldn't be 280th in 3pt d if had a karno IMO.

Where are you getting your 3 pt D percentages? I would like to look at the years with karnowski but without Goss and Williams. Think we would have to go back to 14 15 and before to see how we did with him clogging up the middle but without those guys.

mgadfly
01-31-2018, 08:05 AM
Where are you getting your 3 pt D percentages? I would like to look at the years with karnowski but without Goss and Williams. Think we would have to go back to 14 15 and before to see how we did with him clogging up the middle but without those guys.

According to KenPom dot com (and I encourage anyone who loves statistics and basketball to get a subscription - I think it is $20 per year and gives nerds hours of fun tracking down rarely mentioned advanced metrics and trying to find a way to drop them into casual conversations with friends while enjoying a beer and watching the game) 2014 and 2015 were two of GU's best 3 PT defensive years:

We were 49th in 3 PT FG% defense in 2014 with 25.5% of the opponents' points being scored via the three ball.
In 2015 we were 96th in 3FG% D with 27.5% of opponents' points being scored by three pointers.
In 2017 we were 2nd if 3FG%D and giving up 27.9% of our opponents' points by three.
In 2018 we are 297th in 3FG% D and 34.4% of our opponents' points have been due to three pointers.

mgadfly
01-31-2018, 08:15 AM
And I took a quick glance at each of the seasons going back to 2002 (that's as far as Kenpom goes) and the only year that is remotely close to what I will now be referring to as the "Karno Years" was Rob Sacre's senior season (2012). That season we were 31st in 3FG%D and only 28.5% of the opponents' points came by three. Every other year we were down right horrible in both statistics or would have decent three point FG% D but give up a ton of three pointers per game (see 2008 where our opponents scored 32.3 points from deep but we were still 46th in 3pFG%D).

I'd bet that during the Mark Few Era, Karno's four seasons at GU rank as four of the top 5 seasons for GU 3pt FG defense (cumulative between the two statistics mentioned above). Obviously, he had great guards around him most of those seasons and other big guys (especially his freshman year) that could play D, but I think there is something to be said for having a 7'1" 300 lbs guy clogging the middle and rarely being caught out of help position.

amaronizag
01-31-2018, 08:24 AM
Thanks mgadfly, interesting stuff. Unfortunately I have too much work today to contribute additional info. When I have time I'll check to see the number of 3pt shots teams were putting up in those years. Part may have to do with new rules, part may be attributable to the "Curry Effect" of kids shooting more 3's at all levels of basketball. Also, teams as a whole could be shooting the same % of their shots as 3 pointers, but the teams we play some years shoot more 3's compared to teams we played in past years. There could be other factors not immediately apparent in the %'s. Could just be that we suck at it this year. Interesting that 2015 and 2017 were 27.5% and 27.9% respectively, but our national rank for those years was 96th and 2nd respectfully with a #2 ranking coming in the worse of the two years percentage-wise. Percentage of points scored by 3 pointers is different than percentage of % of 3 pt attempts actually converted to points as baskets made. The % of attempts that are made baskets is a better indicator of how well we defend the 3 pt shot.

mgadfly
01-31-2018, 08:31 AM
The % of attempts made is a better indicator of how well we defend the 3 pt shot.
I'd disagree fairly strongly with this idea. The best three point defensive teams discourage/influence others from taking three pointers. Ken Pom did a summer series article about it in 2015 (I believe) and at the time the idea was that teams did not have much control over 3PT% defense but did have better control over influencing shot selection. His article posits that 3PT% D is more important than analytics types were claiming, but still less important than influencing shot selection.

To break it down another more obvious way. If I give up 15 dunks per game, but defend them well enough that the other team only shoots 93% from dunk range (that's 14 of 15), that may be the best dunk defense (by percentage) in the nation, but I still gave up 28 points to dunks. I'd rather have a defense give up 100% on 3 dunks per game (6 points).

Almost universally at this point in basketball, coaches are going to tell you don't give up points at the rim and don't give up points to the three point shot. Discouraging those types of shots (i.e., getting the opponent to take mid range, long range 2's, and contested post-ups) is what defense is really about.

Zags11
01-31-2018, 08:55 AM
Where are you getting your 3 pt D percentages? I would like to look at the years with karnowski but without Goss and Williams. Think we would have to go back to 14 15 and before to see how we did with him clogging up the middle but without those guys.

The 2015-16 zags squad held opponent's to 30.3% from 3 which is second best in last 17 yrs besides last yr. 2014-15 had them at 33% from 3s. I believe karno was on all of them minus the 2015-16 year? (Back, I'm sorry I got confused on what yr exactly it was)

Below is a article quote from last yr spokesman(link below):

The (2016-17)Zags are second nationally with a .87 defensive efficiency rating (DER), based on the number of points per possession. The NCAA average is 1.04. DER factors include opponent FG percentage, turnover percentage, defensive rebounding percentage and free-throw percentage.

“The best we’ve ever done (since tracking in the early 2000s),” Jakus said. “It’s not just about the number, but the ability to switch ball screens, Zach (Collins) and Przemek (Karnowski) and the rim protection, the guards’ willingness to guard bigs after switches and box out. Players have individual DER ratings. Karnowski, for example, this season has been in the .50s to .60s. Those figures can be broken down into his post-touch defense, isolation defense, etc. Przemek affects the game without blocking the shot more than some of the great shot-blockers,” Jakus said. “His DER is as good as you can get as a big man.”

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2017/mar/10/numbers-adding-up-for-gonzagas-defense/

Zags11
01-31-2018, 09:01 AM
Another good article from late last yr how Shem allowed guards to gamble more and Zach Collins also helping anchor down the middle. Its basically what I have been saying that it all starts with Shem. I believe Shem was on 3 of the best 3pt defensive teams in the last 18yrs now. Coincidence? I think not.


https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2017/04/02/gonzaga-rides-swarming-defense-into-ncaa-championship-game/99962906/

Zags11
01-31-2018, 09:05 AM
Mark few teams are top 30 in allowing 3 point shots. (Not top 30 most made) however when his team falters it is usually a team gets hot from 3 as coaches still want opposition to shoot the lower percentage shot.

Zags11
01-31-2018, 09:19 AM
I'd disagree fairly strongly with this idea. The best three point defensive teams discourage/influence others from taking three pointers. Ken Pom did a summer series article about it in 2015 (I believe) and at the time the idea was that teams did not have much control over 3PT% defense but did have better control over influencing shot selection. His article posits that 3PT% D is more important than analytics types were claiming, but still less important than influencing shot selection.

To break it down another more obvious way. If I give up 15 dunks per game, but defend them well enough that the other team only shoots 93% from dunk range (that's 14 of 15), that may be the best dunk defense (by percentage) in the nation, but I still gave up 28 points to dunks. I'd rather have a defense give up 100% on 3 dunks per game (6 points).

Almost universally at this point in basketball, coaches are going to tell you don't give up points at the rim and don't give up points to the three point shot. Discouraging those types of shots (i.e., getting the opponent to take mid range, long range 2's, and contested post-ups) is what defense is really about.

Great stuff I don't have kenpom. However I googled it and found stuff to add on.

Karno is a huge reason 3 of the best 3pt defenses in last 18yrs were with him in the middle.

Zags11
01-31-2018, 09:27 AM
Bob Huggins said after 61-58 loss in the tournament to the zags. "They have great size in the middle and they are very good."

CDC84
01-31-2018, 09:32 AM
Sure I agree to a point. I just feel like we are feeling the effects of karno and Collins beings gone.

Absolutely. But I feel we are feeling the effects of no Nigel even more than the effects of no Karno and/or Collins. Because NWG's absence is effecting other players on the team who are being forced to do things they aren't as adept at doing. With Nigel, Perkins becomes a playmaking shooting guard. He's one of the best shooters in the nation. He's better off not handling the ball all the time. His best position is shooting guard. And Silas Melson is not and never will be a starting guard for a top 25 team. He's far better as the first perimeter off the pine. Having Nigel on board keeps Norvell at small forward and pushes Melson back to the bench, although I am sure that Few's habit of favoring seniors would probably push Norvell to the bench.

Nigel was the MVP of last year's team. His incredible leadership, combined with his talent and physical strengths at the point guard position are sorely missed. Especially with the importance of guard play in the modern game. Tillie, JWIII and even Larsen would be better players right now if Nigel were still here. I just think we would have more consistency with this team if Nigel were here.

Zagdawg
01-31-2018, 10:31 AM
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2018/jan/30/return-road-to-final-four-presents-obstacles-for-g/

MDABE80
01-31-2018, 10:42 AM
Absolutely. But I feel we are feeling the effects of no Nigel even more than the effects of no Karno and/or Collins. Because NWG's absence is effecting other players on the team who are being forced to do things they aren't as adept at doing. With Nigel, Perkins becomes a playmaking shooting guard. He's one of the best shooters in the nation. He's better off not handling the ball all the time. His best position is shooting guard. And Silas Melson is not and never will be a starting guard for a top 25 team. He's far better as the first perimeter off the pine. Having Nigel on board keeps Norvell at small forward and pushes Melson back to the bench, although I am sure that Few's habit of favoring seniors would probably push Norvell to the bench.

Nigel was the MVP of last year's team. His incredible leadership, combined with his talent and physical strengths at the point guard position are sorely missed. Especially with the importance of guard play in the modern game. Tillie, JWIII and even Larsen would be better players right now if Nigel were still here. I just think we would have more consistency with this team if Nigel were here.
Obvious all season long and this won't change until staff finds a kid like Nigel to run the PG position and slide Josh over to the 2 spot most of the time. Staff is hard
At it!

Zags11
01-31-2018, 11:02 AM
Following the USF game, Gonzaga now ranks 309th in 3pt defense.

We are nearly dead last. No joke.

I'm all for "hard 2's" as Coach Few & Lloyd say, yet at some point something has to give...might be time to take a few chances.

No coincidence our losses are due to teams literally shooting 50% or better from 3pt.

Guys, that's unheard of...

Ps. Can't help but notice Monson's LBSU team ranks just below us. Same mantra?

That's so bad. Smh

Zags11
01-31-2018, 11:04 AM
Absolutely. But I feel we are feeling the effects of no Nigel even more than the effects of no Karno and/or Collins. Because NWG's absence is effecting other players on the team who are being forced to do things they aren't as adept at doing. With Nigel, Perkins becomes a playmaking shooting guard. He's one of the best shooters in the nation. He's better off not handling the ball all the time. His best position is shooting guard. And Silas Melson is not and never will be a starting guard for a top 25 team. He's far better as the first perimeter off the pine. Having Nigel on board keeps Norvell at small forward and pushes Melson back to the bench, although I am sure that Few's habit of favoring seniors would probably push Norvell to the bench.

Nigel was the MVP of last year's team. His incredible leadership, combined with his talent and physical strengths at the point guard position are sorely missed. Especially with the importance of guard play in the modern game. Tillie, JWIII and even Larsen would be better players right now if Nigel were still here. I just think we would have more consistency with this team if Nigel were here.

I was speaking about the 3pt defense. And from stats its mostly cuz karno is gone. 3 of the best 3pt defenses were with karno in the middle and only one of them Nigel was a guard for.

Zags11
01-31-2018, 11:10 AM
Obvious all season long and this won't change until staff finds a kid like Nigel to run the PG position and slide Josh over to the 2 spot most of the time. Staff is hard
At it!

Again, it wasn't Nigel that made the zags the top 2pt defense or 3pt defense in the nation last yr. The main reason was karno(3 of the best 3pt defenses in zags history was with karno in the middle) and Zach Collins who anchored the middle and clogged the lane.

People gush about Nigel, also should gush on Karno. I provided links where opposition coaches said Karno created issues. I provided links of Mathews saying the big guys helped with gambling on the perimeter. I provided links of karno and his der.

Nigel, Mathews and Perkins were solid guards. Leadership by Nigel and karno I won't deny. Their is a just a reason that you take away Nigel, Mathews and JW3 and zags 3pt defense was still better then other years with karno on the floor.

MDABE80
01-31-2018, 11:59 AM
11 so you tell me if you think Karno, Collins etc were out guarding the 3 pt line. Of course they weren't. Somebody else was. If you review films ( you should) our guards (especially Silas and Nigel) were way out preventing 3 pt shots. This season we simply don't have guards that'll go guard it.
Karno was good as a rim protector and a space taker. But that was in the KEY. I doubt if this had anything to do with perimeter defense. It did make shooters avoid the key and stay further away to shoot...further out. That's where the 1-3 spots took over. For whatever the reason, our guards are just not getting it done guarding the 3 line this year. Motivation usually tells the tale.

MileHigh
01-31-2018, 12:34 PM
11 so you tell me if you think Karno, Collins etc were out guarding the 3 pt line. Of course they weren't. Somebody else was. If you review films ( you should) our guards (especially Silas and Nigel) were way out preventing 3 pt shots. This season we simply don't have guards that'll go guard it.
Karno was good as a rim protector and a space taker. But that was in the KEY. I doubt if this had anything to do with perimeter defense. It did make shooters avoid the key and stay further away to shoot...further out. That's where the 1-3 spots took over. For whatever the reason, our guards are just not getting it done guarding the 3 line this year. Motivation usually tells the tale.

I think you are both right. If you have good post defenders your guards don't have to worry about "digs" and double teams on the block so they are generally closer to the three point line to prevent open looks. That being said, when a guard does help on the block the other perimeter guys have to bust their butts to rotate and close out on shooters. I haven't paid that much attention to what the main problem is, but the fact that they have not been defending the 3 well is an indisputable fact, and it is likely due to a combination of the guards helping out on he block AND poor rotations on to the shooters on kick outs.

Zags11
01-31-2018, 12:58 PM
11 so you tell me if you think Karno, Collins etc were out guarding the 3 pt line. Of course they weren't. Somebody else was. If you review films ( you should) our guards (especially Silas and Nigel) were way out preventing 3 pt shots. This season we simply don't have guards that'll go guard it.
Karno was good as a rim protector and a space taker. But that was in the KEY. I doubt if this had anything to do with perimeter defense. It did make shooters avoid the key and stay further away to shoot...further out. That's where the 1-3 spots took over. For whatever the reason, our guards are just not getting it done guarding the 3 line this year. Motivation usually tells the tale.

Our guards last year benefited greatly from karno. I gave you stats and facts that show that three of the best 3pt defenses under few had one guy each yr. Was it Nigel? Nope. Jw3? Nope. Mathews? Nope. It was karno. I gave you links that showed gonzaga players saying they could expand farther out and take risks(like steals) because of the big guy.

I mean your telling me to review film. Why? I gave you stats and links. I don't need to read film when players say and coaches say what helped their guards was the big men in the middle. I can guard you Abe way out past the 3 point line (even with your speed) if I know I got statistically one of the best centers we have had defensively. I also don't need to double down as much. This makes it so i can just stick to your jersey outside. Does it help with guard play? Yep. Except for your reasoning stats show it was cuz of karno. A lot of one on one D in the post, I can stay outside. I can try to jump passing lanes. I stick farther out. I don't care if they drive.

This yr or other years without karno we struggled. Why? We didn't have the post defense. I need to sag so I don't get beat off the dribble and gives a shooter more room. I also need to help double down more as our post defense isn't as good.

It all plays a part ABE. You want to give NiGEL the credit. That's fine for one year. Why are 3 of the best years on 3pt defense with a guy named karno?
Its for the reasons I stated above.

Zags11
01-31-2018, 01:05 PM
I think you are both right. If you have good post defenders your guards don't have to worry about "digs" and double teams on the block so they are generally closer to the three point line to prevent open looks. That being said, when a guard does help on the block the other perimeter guys have to bust their butts to rotate and close out on shooters. I haven't paid that much attention to what the main problem is, but the fact that they have not been defending the 3 well is an indisputable fact, and it is likely due to a combination of the guards helping out on he block AND poor rotations on to the shooters on kick outs.

I agree with 90% of your post. This year the 3pt defense is even worse then normal down yrs. I believe that few and maybe the guards don't believe we have the post defense so we must sag off and double down. If you look at stats, this is a norm for few to sag down.

It is why few's led bulldogs are always in top 30-40 allowed 3pt shots in the country. He thinks that he would rather close down the drives and bunnies and let them fire threes. It works 80% of the time. When we have lost in march minus a cpl yrs, it is due to a team finally killing us from 3.

When you had karno or I believe a sacre year from what mgad posted, you can play more one on one defense. The guards can expand out farther. They can take chances in passing lanes.(Jordan Mathews in a link I provided backed this claim up) Few and the guards know how great karno or sacre were in the key.(example BoB Huggins last yr saying about karno and Zach)

So, with a top defender in the paint you can clog the middle and expand the guards out farther which makes the opposition guards take poor shots or drive it into a mountain of a man.

Zagceo
01-31-2018, 01:32 PM
I agree with 90% of your post. This year the 3pt defense is even worse then normal down yrs. I believe that few and maybe the guards don't believe we have the post defense so we must sag off and double down. If you look at stats, this is a norm for few to sag down.

It is why few's led bulldogs are always in top 30-40 allowed 3pt shots in the country. He thinks that he would rather close down the drives and bunnies and let them fire threes. It works 80% of the time. When we have lost in march minus a cpl yrs, it is due to a team finally killing us from 3.

When you had karno or I believe a sacre year from what mgad posted, you can play more one on one defense. The guards can expand out farther. They can take chances in passing lanes.(Jordan Mathews in a link I provided backed this claim up) Few and the guards know how great karno or sacre were in the key.(example BoB Huggins last yr saying about karno and Zach)

So, with a top defender in the paint you can clog the middle and expand the guards out farther which makes the opposition guards take poor shots or drive it into a mountain of a man.

unfortunately last year was 1

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/34/54/87/3454873fb8e02f4bc81585979582c38f.png

Zagceo
01-31-2018, 01:47 PM
I think you are both right. If you have good post defenders your guards don't have to worry about "digs" and double teams on the block so they are generally closer to the three point line to prevent open looks. That being said, when a guard does help on the block the other perimeter guys have to bust their butts to rotate and close out on shooters. I haven't paid that much attention to what the main problem is, but the fact that they have not been defending the 3 well is an indisputable fact, and it is likely due to a combination of the guards helping out on he block AND poor rotations on to the shooters on kick outs.

this is what I see....rotations are slow or players just lost...inexperience is the cause of most of it IMO

the awareness of Virginia players on defense is akin to a well choreographed ballet as to rotations..anticipate plays by disrupting passing lanes without gambling

I would love to see Zags with more active hands on defense..especially Rui with those long wings

mgadfly
01-31-2018, 01:47 PM
But that was in the KEY. I doubt if this had anything to do with perimeter defense.

It has EVERYTHING to do with it. Sacks happen in the backfield, but the blocking on the line of scrimmage probably has a bit to do with them.

maynard g krebs
01-31-2018, 02:43 PM
Absolutely. But I feel we are feeling the effects of no Nigel even more than the effects of no Karno and/or Collins. Because NWG's absence is effecting other players on the team who are being forced to do things they aren't as adept at doing. With Nigel, Perkins becomes a playmaking shooting guard. He's one of the best shooters in the nation. He's better off not handling the ball all the time. His best position is shooting guard. And Silas Melson is not and never will be a starting guard for a top 25 team. He's far better as the first perimeter off the pine. Having Nigel on board keeps Norvell at small forward and pushes Melson back to the bench, although I am sure that Few's habit of favoring seniors would probably push Norvell to the bench.

Nigel was the MVP of last year's team. His incredible leadership, combined with his talent and physical strengths at the point guard position are sorely missed. Especially with the importance of guard play in the modern game. Tillie, JWIII and even Larsen would be better players right now if Nigel were still here. I just think we would have more consistency with this team if Nigel were here.

Just curious. How would you explain the fact that this year's team has a Kempom offensive rating 2 points higher than last year's (120+ v 118+) and an offensive ranking ten spots higher 6th v 16th? And that scoring and assists are up substantially, despite a ton of inexperienced players in the lineup?

Few recruited Josh to play pg. Few said so himself; it's on Josh's Wiki page.

soccerdud
01-31-2018, 02:44 PM
It has EVERYTHING to do with it. Sacks happen in the backfield, but the blocking on the line of scrimmage probably has a bit to do with them.

and the coverage downfield...

MileHigh
01-31-2018, 02:47 PM
this is what I see....rotations are slow or players just lost...inexperience is the cause of most of it IMO

the awareness of Virginia players on defense is akin to a well choreographed ballet as to rotations..anticipate plays by disrupting passing lanes without gambling

I would love to see Zags with more active hands on defense..especially Rui with those long wings

If you are familiar with Bennets "pack line M2M" he has his off ball players playing the gaps instead of denying the passing lanes. Because they are usually a couple steps further from their defender than your typical M2M, anticipating passes to shooters and closing out is the key to that type of defense and if they get it wrong they will get scorched on three pointers and blow-bys after long close outs. Bennett teaches that you begin your closeout on the pass (not the catch) and you finish close out with choppy steps and hands up high.

I have been told that they spend at least 20 minutes during every practice on perimeter close out drills

MileHigh
01-31-2018, 03:01 PM
A. And Silas Melson is not and never will be a starting guard for a top 25 team. He's far better as the first perimeter off the pine.

Saying Mellson isnt good enough to start on a top 25 team is laughable. Melson is one of the best, if not the best perimeter defenders on the West Coast, and his offensive skills, while not mind blowing,are good enough that the other team has to pay attention to him on the other end. Any coach that values defense would start him and play him 30 minutes a game just like Few does.

Zagger
01-31-2018, 03:19 PM
I'd disagree fairly strongly with this idea. The best three point defensive teams discourage/influence others from taking three pointers. Ken Pom did a summer series article about it in 2015 (I believe) and at the time the idea was that teams did not have much control over 3PT% defense but did have better control over influencing shot selection. His article posits that 3PT% D is more important than analytics types were claiming, but still less important than influencing shot selection.

To break it down another more obvious way. If I give up 15 dunks per game, but defend them well enough that the other team only shoots 93% from dunk range (that's 14 of 15), that may be the best dunk defense (by percentage) in the nation, but I still gave up 28 points to dunks. I'd rather have a defense give up 100% on 3 dunks per game (6 points).

Almost universally at this point in basketball, coaches are going to tell you don't give up points at the rim and don't give up points to the three point shot. Discouraging those types of shots (i.e., getting the opponent to take mid range, long range 2's, and contested post-ups) is what defense is really about.

Whether it's just me or not. Seems like Few mentions/stresses hands up for the guards, they do it for a set or two, then their hands are not up once again. The 'discouragement' part by Zag D isn't all that discouraging (for us maybe but not for the opposition in taking 3 pt shots). Also, 3s have been falling pretty well for Zag opponents. I don't think any of them can keep that up. I suspect (and hope) that SMC's 3 point shooting percentage does not match nor surpass the % tossed up against the Zags in McCarthey when they get the Zags on their home turf. The 2/10 game in Moraga will be very telling. The Zags should have a few things figured out by then. If they don't .... I'm going to worry about Vegas and March in general.

Zags11
01-31-2018, 03:24 PM
unfortunately last year was 1

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/34/54/87/3454873fb8e02f4bc81585979582c38f.png

Yep. Sigh. Oh well fantastic run!

MDABE80
01-31-2018, 04:45 PM
It has EVERYTHING to do with it. Sacks happen in the backfield, but the blocking on the line of scrimmage probably has a bit to do with them.
Explain yourself. If anything , if the key is clogged, more outside shooting occurs. Is that what happened? When you have a superior 3 pt defense the answer is: it doesn't matter. We're just not defending well outside. A football analogy doesn't apply.

MDABE80
01-31-2018, 04:47 PM
Just curious. How would you explain the fact that this year's team has a Kempom offensive rating 2 points higher than last year's (120+ v 118+) and an offensive ranking ten spots higher 6th v 16th? And that scoring and assists are up substantially, despite a ton of inexperienced players in the lineup?

Few recruited Josh to play pg. Few said so himself; it's on Josh's Wiki page.< didn't turn out that well. Gee it's "on his WIKI page" are you seriously using this?? lol

MDABE80
01-31-2018, 04:49 PM
Our guards last year benefited greatly from karno. I gave you stats and facts that show that three of the best 3pt defenses under few had one guy each yr. Was it Nigel? Nope. Jw3? Nope. Mathews? Nope. It was karno. I gave you links that showed gonzaga players saying they could expand farther out and take risks(like steals) because of the big guy.

I mean your telling me to review film. Why? I gave you stats and links. I don't need to read film when players say and coaches say what helped their guards was the big men in the middle. I can guard you Abe way out past the 3 point line (even with your speed) if I know I got statistically one of the best centers we have had defensively. I also don't need to double down as much. This makes it so i can just stick to your jersey outside. Does it help with guard play? Yep. Except for your reasoning stats show it was cuz of karno. A lot of one on one D in the post, I can stay outside. I can try to jump passing lanes. I stick farther out. I don't care if they drive.

This yr or other years without karno we struggled. Why? We didn't have the post defense. I need to sag so I don't get beat off the dribble and gives a shooter more room. I also need to help double down more as our post defense isn't as good.

It all plays a part ABE. You want to give NiGEL the credit. That's fine for one year. Why are 3 of the best years on 3pt defense with a guy named karno?
Its for the reasons I stated above.
NO I said they ALL did a good job....not just Nigel. SO if Silas and Josh are returnees, what's the deal with the poor 3 pt defense. I wish I knew.

Zags11
01-31-2018, 06:05 PM
NO I said they ALL did a good job....not just Nigel. SO if Silas and Josh are returnees, what's the deal with the poor 3 pt defense. I wish I knew.

We don't have a inside presence like karno. Its not outlandish to think this way at all. Karno played 4 years and 3 years were one of the tops for 3pt defense for GU. It didn't happen with anyone else. Different guards and different centers.

MDABE80
01-31-2018, 06:32 PM
lol ok.

soccerdud
01-31-2018, 06:37 PM
I wish I knew.

to be fair, a number of posters have been trying to help you with this for quite awhile now. if we can get to the point where your cognitive dissonance causes you to re-examine your preconceived notions instead of just rejecting the new (and better) information, we'll be almost there. am not holding out a lot of hope tho.

MDABE80
01-31-2018, 06:51 PM
Dud. Seems like a personal attack.

Zags11
01-31-2018, 07:09 PM
lol ok.

Lol OK what?


I been giving you facts, stats and links. KARNO IS THE FREAKING REASON ABE!!!!

3 of the 4 years karno was here, he helped Gonzaga have their best 3pt defenses in last 18yrs. Pretty concrete to most ppl.

LongIslandZagFan
01-31-2018, 07:19 PM
Dud. Seems like a personal attack.

No... it is pointing out that many people have tried to explain it to you and you refuse to even remotely listen to what they are saying. But a simple synopsis would be that because karno was in the middle it limited drives to the hoop and when it did happen PK or Zach was there to defend it. The knowledge of that allowed the guards to play tighter on the perimeter and not worry as much about the drives on the lane. That coupled with NWGs defense on the outside allowed for a solid 3 pt D.

also... don’t know who you talked into lifting your 3 day ban. Really... 3 days and you couldn’t do it? Smdh

MDABE80
01-31-2018, 07:45 PM
Memories of Crosby LIZ? Nobody insulted anyone on ur last
attempt at banning. All your interpretation with your old biases showing. But if anyone thinks a top rated 3 of defense falls to the worst 3 of defense in the country, I'd suggest it's a lot more than Karnos absence accounting for it. If you believe it is, somebody has a bridge to sell these believers. So we come to different conclusions. Fair enough. But there should be some
Evidence supporting such an extreme drop.

soccerdud
01-31-2018, 07:45 PM
No... it is pointing out that many people have tried to explain it to you and you refuse to even remotely listen to what they are saying. But a simple synopsis would be that because karno was in the middle it limited drives to the hoop and when it did happen PK or Zach was there to defend it. The knowledge of that allowed the guards to play tighter on the perimeter and not worry as much about the drives on the lane. That coupled with NWGs defense on the outside allowed for a solid 3 pt D.

additionally, issues with switches and closeouts are greatly exacerbated when you have to help or dig defensively on the post. this puts defenders in motion and takes them away from their man assignments, complicates responsibilities, etc. with karno down low, we effectively never needed to dig or help him. this gave a more solid foundation for our defense, reduced our need for complicated rotations, etc. playing defense across the entire court is easier with him in the middle. simpler schemes, fewer rotations, more bodies nearer our opponents' shooters (and closing out harder)

that's aside from the point that lizf made.

and aside from zag11 saying those same things. and aside from zag11 quoting coaches and players saying near-enough the same things. and aside from all the stats that show clearly a divide in 3-pt defense between karno and non-karno zag teams...

LongIslandZagFan
01-31-2018, 07:51 PM
Calling someone an idiot is insulting them. Indirectly or directly. But thanks for proving my point that you whined over a 3 day ban. Pretty lame.

ETA... I got a complaint from someone else that read it as such. Which is what initiated the whole thing.

Zagdawg
01-31-2018, 08:07 PM
Sometimes you just need to save the wear and tear on the keyboard and move on -- not everyone has a logical understanding of the situation --even if explained multiple ways by multiple people.

Don't get angry.... just move forward -- tomorrow is another day......and even a game day at that.

Go Zags!

MDABE80
01-31-2018, 08:18 PM
But would you hire him as a D-1 basketball coach? Even a WA 4A HS coach? NO! Let's be very clear here...No one on this hoops board can out coach or out recruit MF? Watching and writing about basketball for 45 years does not make someone a better basketball coach, it makes one a pretty good basketball reporter!
Doesn't matter if I'd hire him for a coach. He's got experience and in this case he's got it right. Not sure what MF has to do with the comments. Buds just making observations and imo they're
Valid.

MDABE80
01-31-2018, 08:23 PM
Calling someone an idiot is insulting them. Indirectly or directly. But thanks for proving my point that you whined over a 3 day ban. Pretty lame.

ETA... I got a complaint from someone else that read it as such. Which is what initiated the whole thing.

But I didn't. You think you read my mind and attached. Your own interpretation as you've always done. No whining changed your faulty thought. I just stuck with the facts and what I actually wrote. You have a bias. Band likely will have. I shouldn't have to suffer due to your misconceptions. Nobody should . And because your were wrong , you were reversed. No whining just facts. Now
Back to basketball. 3 days was not the issue. But you know that already.

LongIslandZagFan
01-31-2018, 08:33 PM
You said the same thing last time. But the reality is that is a lie. You were banned yesterday morning for 3 days. I am an IT guy... I am not mistaken. I didn’t make any mistakes. Only way you are posting today is complaining to someone else. Honestly you can say whatever you want on this board. That seems obvious. Don’t know who you have dirt on but they are good soldiers. I’m done with this thread and may very well be done being an admin and possibly the board altogether.

MDABE80
01-31-2018, 08:42 PM
No dirt. Ur now you're sounding as off base as the guy on DonsCentral. They made up their own minds
Based on what was written in the posts
And what you wrote to me. No plots. Nothing but fairness. This is a basketball forum. If u want to discuss further you're welcome to give me On my way! Or
Call. I'll be
Happy to pm u
My cell if u want. I see no reason to burden this board
With this issue you brought up. It's not
A basketball. Topic.

LongIslandZagFan
01-31-2018, 08:48 PM
No dirt. Ur now you're sounding as off base as the guy on DonsCentral. They made up their own minds
Based on what was written in the posts
And what you wrote to me. No plots. Nothing but fairness. This is a basketball forum. If u want to discuss further you're welcome to give me On my way! Or
Call. I'll be
Happy to pm u
My cell if u want. I see no reason to burden this board
With this issue you brought up. It's not
A basketball. Topic.

ah yes.. I said you know better than that and are better than that. Continue to spin your lle. Hey.. it’s your board.

Zags11
01-31-2018, 09:08 PM
ah yes.. I said you know better than that and are better than that. Continue to spin your lle. Hey.. it’s your board.

Abe knows ppl. Abe, I tried providing stats and stuff. You didn't even listen to it. So, IMO you don't care to listen.


Go zags

MDABE80
01-31-2018, 09:15 PM
No you don't know me better than that ( whatever that means). I made the offer though and I'll leave it at that.

The thing is though ( getting us back to basketball) If it's true that Karno was clogging the key, protecting the rim, shouldn't that mean the opposition would be avoiding the key and the opposition would be pushed out to shoot more 3 pointers? I would think so.....but that didn't happen if you add up the number of 3's taken against us last year s the number taken against us so far this year?
But that's not the case. The opposition took about the same last year but made less.

Given that, there's still a question as to why we're not so good at defending 3's. It's now a non Karno argument. Something is different about our defense this year. No real answer to that unless our players aren't defending this year like they did last year. What that "something" is remains unclear to me. Maybe the opposition is just better at the long ball.

One thing is obvious, those 4 kids who left us must have made more of a difference than I thought earlier in the season. Somebody on the board said just that a week or so ago. I didn't think so but on further reflection, that person is likely correct.

Hoopaholic
01-31-2018, 09:21 PM
No you don't know me better than that ( whatever that means). I made the offer though and I'll leave it at that.

The thing is though ( getting us back to basketball) If it's true that Karno was clogging the key, protecting the rim, shouldn't that mean the opposition would be avoiding the key and the opposition would be pushed out to shoot more 3 pointers? I would think so.....but that didn't happen if you add up the number of 3's taken against us last year s the number taken against us so far this year?
But that's not the case. The opposition took about the same last year but made less.

Given that, there's still a question as to why we're not so good at defending 3's. It's now a non Karno argument. Something is different about our defense this year. No real answer to that unless our players aren't defending this year like they did last year. What that "something" is remains unclear to me. Maybe the opposition is just better at the long ball.

One thing is obvious, those 4 kids who left us must have made more of a difference than I thought earlier in the season. Somebody on the board said just that a week or so ago. I didn't think so but on further reflection, that person is likely correct.

Your own explanation is the justification of why a big protecting the paint creates ability to shut down effective 3 point shooting

If defender can be up in the grill forcing bad looks their percentage will go down

If you can't be up in their grill the other team will get more decent looks thus shoot higher percent

Rim protection is the major difference from my perspective plain and simple, however we do have some newbies learning distance, angle, help timing which is also adding to open looks this year