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View Full Version : "They're trying to foul!" They're trying to foul" - Cheers Coach Few!



CDC84
01-27-2018, 11:17 PM
That ref deserved every bit of what Coach Few had to say to him (you could hear it on TV). And he was in his ear until the final buzzer.

This has been a big issue with Coach Few going all the way back to the elbow rule change and that infamous technical foul that Robert Sacre drew that cost Gonzaga a game at USF. A technical he attained after numerous fouls had been committed against him, and with a TV shot of USF coach Rex Walters in the background screaming at his players to foul Rob immediately.

This is one instance where officials do need to be more aware of time and score, game strategy, and what the opposing teams are trying to do and referee the game differently than at any other point of the game. Now I am sure that the idea wasn't to have Rui with the ball, unable to move, near the mid-court line, but it took about 7 fouls on Rui for the stupid ref to call a tie up when USF's Coach Smith wanted a foul immediately to stop the clock. Nothing else. Tying up the ball was useless in that situation because GU had the arrow, and it would involve more time being wasted. Because while all those foul calls weren't getting called, the clock kept ticking. A steal in a situation like that was not going to happen because Rui's goal was to just hold on to the ball tightly and not surrender it. There is no 5 second rule anymore. You knew he was only interested in fouling GU because he instructed his player to foul Perkins on the next play before the ball was even inbounded. He had to do that because of all the time that was wasted when the refs failed to call the foul on Rui!

Coach Smith didn't get what he wanted. More time came off the clock. GU got the ball back.

Rui just kept getting hacked and hacked - increasing the possibility of injury, which Few (and Rui) don't want. The longer and longer a foul fails to get called, the harder and harder the fouls will get to make sure the refs make the call. It's a dangerous situation.

Both coaches wanted Rui on the line.....immediately. And the yet the ref acted as if he didn't even know what was happening in the game.

Few's view, and I agree with him, is that refs need to be aware of these situations, and be hyper-sensitive, almost, when it comes to calling fouls. When the "true" foul game begins, a team has zero interest in doing anything in that situation BUT fouling. Even more so in an era where we no longer have the 5 second rule. You could see that USF's guys were all about the foul. If enough time goes by, and enough fouls fail to be called, a tie up, an elbow or something like this will inevitably occur. Call the foul, get the guy on the line, and get the game moving. It's what both sides want.

The situation kind of reminds me, in a weird way, of a football coach warning the official that he is going to call a timeout with 3 seconds left to prepare for a game winning, 30 yard field goal. The coach still needs to make the timeout signal and verbalize it, but the official is aware and "hyper-sensitive" about what's coming and doesn't screw around with stopping the clock. Have we gotten to the point where both coaches on the basketball floor have to remind officials that fouls are coming because the only way the team that's down is going to win is if the team that is up misses foul shots??

sullyzag66
01-28-2018, 01:36 AM
That ref deserved every bit of what Coach Few had to say to him (you could hear it on TV). And he was in his ear until the final buzzer.

This has been a big issue with Coach Few going all the way back to the elbow rule change and that infamous technical foul that Robert Sacre drew that cost Gonzaga a game at USF. A technical he attained after numerous fouls had been committed against him, and with a TV shot of USF coach Rex Walters in the background screaming at his players to foul Rob immediately.

This is one instance where officials do need to be more aware of time and score, game strategy, and what the opposing teams are trying to do and referee the game differently than at any other point of the game. Now I am sure that the idea wasn't to have Rui with the ball, unable to move, near the mid-court line, but it took about 7 fouls on Rui for the stupid ref to call a tie up when USF's Coach Smith wanted a foul immediately to stop the clock. Nothing else. Tying up the ball was useless in that situation because GU had the arrow, and it would involve more time being wasted. Because while all those foul calls weren't getting called, the clock kept ticking. A steal in a situation like that was not going to happen because Rui's goal was to just hold on to the ball tightly and not surrender it. There is no 5 second rule anymore. You knew he was only interested in fouling GU because he instructed his player to foul Perkins on the next play before the ball was even inbounded. He had to do that because of all the time that was wasted when the refs failed to call the foul on Rui!

Coach Smith didn't get what he wanted. More time came off the clock. GU got the ball back.

Rui just kept getting hacked and hacked - increasing the possibility of injury, which Few (and Rui) don't want. The longer and longer a foul fails to get called, the harder and harder the fouls will get to make sure the refs make the call. It's a dangerous situation.

Both coaches wanted Rui on the line.....immediately. And the yet the ref acted as if he didn't even know what was happening in the game.

Few's view, and I agree with him, is that refs need to be aware of these situations, and be hyper-sensitive, almost, when it comes to calling fouls. When the "true" foul game begins, a team has zero interest in doing anything in that situation BUT fouling. Even more so in an era where we no longer have the 5 second rule. You could see that USF's guys were all about the foul. If enough time goes by, and enough fouls fail to be called, a tie up, an elbow or something like this will inevitably occur. Call the foul, get the guy on the line, and get the game moving. It's what both sides want.

The situation kind of reminds me, in a weird way, of a football coach warning the official that he is going to call a timeout with 3 seconds left to prepare for a game winning, 30 yard field goal. The coach still needs to make the timeout signal and verbalize it, but the official is aware and "hyper-sensitive" about what's coming and doesn't screw around with stopping the clock. Have we gotten to the point where both coaches on the basketball floor have to remind officials that fouls are coming because the only way the team that's down is going to win is if the team that is up misses foul shots??

The change in the five-second rule has always confused me a bit. I think the change was that the five-second violation no longer applies to the player while dribbling. If closely guarded the player still has to shoot, pass or dribble within five seconds. The player cannot just hold the ball for more than five seconds if closely guarded.

Hoopaholic
01-28-2018, 07:38 AM
That ref deserved every bit of what Coach Few had to say to him (you could hear it on TV). And he was in his ear until the final buzzer.

This has been a big issue with Coach Few going all the way back to the elbow rule change and that infamous technical foul that Robert Sacre drew that cost Gonzaga a game at USF. A technical he attained after numerous fouls had been committed against him, and with a TV shot of USF coach Rex Walters in the background screaming at his players to foul Rob immediately.

This is one instance where officials do need to be more aware of time and score, game strategy, and what the opposing teams are trying to do and referee the game differently than at any other point of the game. Now I am sure that the idea wasn't to have Rui with the ball, unable to move, near the mid-court line, but it took about 7 fouls on Rui for the stupid ref to call a tie up when USF's Coach Smith wanted a foul immediately to stop the clock. Nothing else. Tying up the ball was useless in that situation because GU had the arrow, and it would involve more time being wasted. Because while all those foul calls weren't getting called, the clock kept ticking. A steal in a situation like that was not going to happen because Rui's goal was to just hold on to the ball tightly and not surrender it. There is no 5 second rule anymore. You knew he was only interested in fouling GU because he instructed his player to foul Perkins on the next play before the ball was even inbounded. He had to do that because of all the time that was wasted when the refs failed to call the foul on Rui!

Coach Smith didn't get what he wanted. More time came off the clock. GU got the ball back.

Rui just kept getting hacked and hacked - increasing the possibility of injury, which Few (and Rui) don't want. The longer and longer a foul fails to get called, the harder and harder the fouls will get to make sure the refs make the call. It's a dangerous situation.

Both coaches wanted Rui on the line.....immediately. And the yet the ref acted as if he didn't even know what was happening in the game.

Few's view, and I agree with him, is that refs need to be aware of these situations, and be hyper-sensitive, almost, when it comes to calling fouls. When the "true" foul game begins, a team has zero interest in doing anything in that situation BUT fouling. Even more so in an era where we no longer have the 5 second rule. You could see that USF's guys were all about the foul. If enough time goes by, and enough fouls fail to be called, a tie up, an elbow or something like this will inevitably occur. Call the foul, get the guy on the line, and get the game moving. It's what both sides want.

The situation kind of reminds me, in a weird way, of a football coach warning the official that he is going to call a timeout with 3 seconds left to prepare for a game winning, 30 yard field goal. The coach still needs to make the timeout signal and verbalize it, but the official is aware and "hyper-sensitive" about what's coming and doesn't screw around with stopping the clock. Have we gotten to the point where both coaches on the basketball floor have to remind officials that fouls are coming because the only way the team that's down is going to win is if the team that is up misses foul shots??

Or maybe simply call the game consistently no matter what a coaches strategy is...foul is a foul. At the 7 second mark in first half or the 7 second left in game

Kemo 1966
01-28-2018, 07:53 AM
The last part of the UOP-BYU game was marred by "the worst officiating crew in the WCC" (according to the Cougar Staff writer of the SLC Tribune, Drew Jay)! Pacific has been playing the last 4 games (hello SMC) (and will probably finish this year) with 7 Scholarship players. The stripes had two in deep foul trouble, as well as throwing out Pacific's top point scorer yesterday....on a terrible call [ECHO'D BY THE BYU/TV sports crew on the telecast] ... so a game that could have given the 16,500 in attendance a great satisfying finish... somewhere in the 3-8 point victory......... instead satisfied the Las Vegas boys, a 15 point margin, with a 3 in the last 15 seconds to beat the 13 point spread!

I AGREE WITH HOOPAHOLIC: Consistency should be the ref's goal....a charge is a charge, no matter the color of the jersey or situation in the game! What ever is being called at one end, likewise if it happens at the 'other end'....should be the same result! IMO

roundup
01-28-2018, 09:09 AM
The worst example of this I have ever seen occurred in the 2012 WCC title game. SMC up 3 with under ten seconds and in bounds it to Dellavedova. The slow motion replay was brutal. Within feet of the red, multiple Gonzaga players are trying to foul as Dellavedova looks at the ref and screams “timeout.” After ignoring four or five blatant fouls and Delly repeatedly screaming time out, you got the worst “jump ball” call I’ve ever seen followed by the elias Harris three. Refs do need to wake up in those situations.

bballbeachbum
01-28-2018, 10:04 AM
ideally what hoop and Kemo want would be awesome but it's so inconsistent, just the way it is imo
in the situations being discussed, like CDC alluded to, always thought it was a player safety issue; if they are trying to foul, which means contact on purpose, and it's not called, of course they're going to foul harder now t get the call!
Have gotten into with refs on this before big time. And this has nothing to do with coaching kids to go for the hard steal in that situation because maybe, just maybe, the ref will swallow the whistle and you'll get a steal. Sound familiar? better be strong with the ball when the other team is looking to foul on purpose

Zagger
01-28-2018, 10:29 AM
Well, it all certainly makes college BB exciting :)

Ribbing aside .... I echo the responses to have refs be consistent throughout a game. It helps keep the sport safer. It's great to see athletes in uniforms where you can easily see who they are instead of wearing heaps of protective gear. All fouls need to be called ASAP. That being said I also hate to see flopping. I'm afraid we'll get more of that if real fouls are not called or there is a lack of consistency in how/when they are called. It would not bother me if there was a flopping penalty :)

willandi
01-28-2018, 11:25 AM
There obviously needs to be some way for coaches to file complaints against officials. The play would be reviewed and egregious calls, or non-calls, that threaten safety of the players or dictate speed and outcome of the game, would result in censure of the official. It could be as little as a first time warning, a small fine up to no postseason games or even dismissal.

EEzag
01-28-2018, 11:51 AM
There obviously needs to be some way for coaches to file complaints against officials. The play would be reviewed and egregious calls, or non-calls, that threaten safety of the players or dictate speed and outcome of the game, would result in censure of the official. It could be as little as a first time warning, a small fine up to no postseason games or even dismissal.

Wouldn't the ref be forced into calling an intentional foul if he was to interpret intent?

willandi
01-28-2018, 12:28 PM
Wouldn't the ref be forced into calling an intentional foul if he was to interpret intent?

Could be, but not calling an obvious foul is just as bad, or worse. They obviously are intended as fouls, but not above the neck and with no intent, so not "intentional" fouls. Those have been called regular fouls for decades. It should not be an option to not call them.

What if, in last nights game, when they kept trying to foul Rui, he had been poked hard in the eye? Out for a month, or more?

webspinnre
01-28-2018, 01:35 PM
Glad to see this posted, and I agree that it's a player safety issue. If the refs don't call it, the defenders are going to start fouling harder and harder to try to get the call to stop the clock.

Bogozags
01-28-2018, 01:56 PM
Wouldn't the ref be forced into calling an intentional foul if he was to interpret intent?

Not making any attempt to "go for the ball" is an intentional foul...when Ratinho had his layup blocked by JWIII he turned and went directly to Josh and grabbed him...still mystified at why the Ref's arms didn't go up and make an "X" for two free throws and the ball out of bounds...so much inconsistency...

A couple of games ago, when Josh didn't play the ball but grabbed the opposing player fouling him so he wouldn't score a layup...he was called for the "X" and the player had two free throws and the ball out of bounds...

CDC84
01-28-2018, 06:24 PM
I want to make one thing very clear that came up today with a person I was discussing this with. The refs should ONLY call a foul if one is legitimately committed. Just because Kyle Smith wants a foul called doesn't mean he gets one. A Dons' player must commit it. The problem is that about 7 fouls were committed on Rui before the ball was tied up.

In regards to your argument Hoopaholic that "the game should be officiated no differently in the 1st half than it is with 15 seconds left and the game tied at 77": I agree 100% with this. That being said, refs are human beings, and all human beings are creatures of habit. When the game got to the point where it got last night where Kyle Smith didn't even want his players to try to steal the ball, that represents a game situation that refs encounter maybe 1-1.5% of the time that they officiate ball games. For 39 minutes and 20 seconds last night, the refs saw players who at no point were trying to desperately foul to stop the clock. I feel the refs should just simply huddle, breath deeply, and say to each other "both of these coaches want a foul to happen right now, pay extra close attention so that we get the first foul called correctly. Not just for player safety, but because we need to get the call right." That's not calling the game differently in the sense of "letting the kids play" or any of that nonsense. It's just acknowledging that "we are in a different point of the game where players will be doing things that we don't normally see." I just feel officials don't do that enough in these foul game situations, and so they have a tendency to miss calls. They act like they are deer caught in the headlights because what they officiating is so different from what took place during the rest of the game.

I once went to a juco game many years ago where a PF was fouled at least 5 times before a guy on the other team inadvertently hit him with an elbow so bad that it caused a concussion. The player had to go to the ground before the ref finally called a foul! You know who got nailed with the foul call? A player who touched the guy as he was falling to the ground. Not the elbow guy. That's an official caught like a deer in the headlights and not paying any attention to time, score, game strategy, or anything related to the fact that the team who was down desperately wanted this dude fouled to stop the clock. That's why I say that the longer the refs fail to make a call in these situations, the more violent the fouls become.

I really don't think Mark Few screaming "They're trying to foul" had anything to do with him feeling that a foul should be called just because USF was trying to foul. But how could a team NOT foul when you had that many guys around Rui, swinging at him for 4 to 5 seconds or whatever? There had to have been a foul, and as it turns out, there were about 7 of them.

CDC84
01-28-2018, 06:25 PM
Not making any attempt to "go for the ball" is an intentional foul...when Ratinho had his layup blocked by JWIII he turned and went directly to Josh and grabbed him...still mystified at why the Ref's arms didn't go up and make an "X" for two free throws and the ball out of bounds...so much inconsistency...

A couple of games ago, when Josh didn't play the ball but grabbed the opposing player fouling him so he wouldn't score a layup...he was called for the "X" and the player had two free throws and the ball out of bounds...

This is a call in college basketball that is called very inconsistently.

Zagsker
01-29-2018, 05:01 PM
You guys should be refs, you get it

Hoopaholic
01-29-2018, 06:13 PM
You guys should be refs, you get it

Hmmmmm. Told wife was going get back into coaching now that my kids are all done with hoops.....she gave me some words I rarely hear from her but bottom line was no....so came back next day told her signed up to ref....first year refine high school level and having a blast

bballbeachbum
01-29-2018, 07:02 PM
Hmmmmm. Told wife was going get back into coaching now that my kids are all done with hoops.....she gave me some words I rarely hear from her but bottom line was no....so came back next day told her signed up to ref....first year refine high school level and having a blast

hahaha!! so has anyone yelled at you "they're trying to foul! they're trying to foul!"
respect for stepping up to ref, not an easy job

Hoopaholic
01-29-2018, 07:04 PM
hahaha!! so has anyone yelled at you "they're trying to foul! they're trying to foul!"
respect for stepping up to ref, not an easy job

Not yet but plenty of "you need glasses"

bballbeachbum
01-29-2018, 07:10 PM
Not yet but plenty of "you need glasses"

without any special adjectives attached? not bad man

Zagsker
01-30-2018, 06:51 AM
Hmmmmm. Told wife was going get back into coaching now that my kids are all done with hoops.....she gave me some words I rarely hear from her but bottom line was no....so came back next day told her signed up to ref....first year refine high school level and having a blast

Nice...started reffing 3 years ago, definitely an eye opener into how difficult reffing is. Ever since that time I have little patience for fans who piss and moan about reffing but have never truly done it

Zagceo
01-30-2018, 07:51 AM
Not yet but plenty of "you need glasses"

does your drivers licenses concur?

Hoopaholic
01-30-2018, 07:52 AM
does your drivers licenses concur?

not quite yet, unless the 10 pairs of cheaters lying around strategically count?

bballbeachbum
01-30-2018, 04:25 PM
Nice...started reffing 3 years ago, definitely an eye opener into how difficult reffing is. Ever since that time I have little patience for fans who piss and moan about reffing but have never truly done it

re. refs and college ball, it is what it is and it's not always good. fact. pissing and moaning about it is one thing. But recognizing the reality is another.
from a team point of view, to overcome the fact that poor officiating happens, seems best to recognize reality so it can be dealt with. the equation requires you win anyway and overcome, but how can you overcome that which isn't recognized?
refs can be poor, not saying you are, but it's a reality, and games can be poorly officiated.

Zagsker
01-30-2018, 05:03 PM
re. refs and college ball, it is what it is and it's not always good. fact. pissing and moaning about it is one thing. But recognizing the reality is another.
from a team point of view, to overcome the fact that poor officiating happens, seems best to recognize reality so it can be dealt with. the equation requires you win anyway and overcome, but how can you overcome that which isn't recognized?
refs can be poor, not saying you are, but it's a reality, and games can be poorly officiated.

Oh there are poor refs, but when you get into college games it's a process of scouted selection, so you got guys that are seasoned and know time and situation..i myself have remarked on tv about bad calls, but we have the benefit of slowmotion, etc.

Trying to make a split second call that involves multiple layers of motion is tough. Fouling at the end of a game, you wanna be cautious on a quick whistle cause what if the ball is knocked loose pre foul...i have seen it happen where a coach is telling his team to foul and next thing you know the o actually loses the ball but the ref, being proactive, gave a quick whistle....coach went ballistic and so did fans, it's that type of garbage I can't stand.

bballbeachbum
01-30-2018, 05:06 PM
Oh there are poor refs, but when you get into college games it's a process of scouted selection, so you got guys that are seasoned and know time and situation..i myself have remarked on tv about bad calls, but we have the benefit of slowmotion, etc.

Trying to make a split second call that involves multiple layers of motion is tough. Fouling at the end of a game, you wanna be cautious on a quick whistle cause what if the ball is knocked loose pre foul...i have seen it happen where a coach is telling his team to foul and next thing you know the o actually loses the ball but the ref, being proactive, gave a quick whistle....coach went ballistic and so did fans, it's that type of garbage I can't stand.

all sides of that coin at the end are tricky! I only yell at refs anymore for player safety stuff, talk like a rational human on disputes (so I've been told by refs) ;)

willandi
01-30-2018, 07:26 PM
Nice...started reffing 3 years ago, definitely an eye opener into how difficult reffing is. Ever since that time I have little patience for fans who piss and moan about reffing but have never truly done it

Thank you for your officiating. I hope that you are one of the 'good' ones. Personally, I don't care whether you have patience for the fans or not. When officials change the game, make bad calls etc., I will continue to piss and moan.

I am a jeweler. I went to the Gemological Institute of America in 1986 in order to know more about diamonds and gemstones. I have been a jeweler ever since, owning my own store for the last 8 1/2 years. Now, with the internet and Blue Nile et al, I have customers that believe that 2 weeks of intense research on the web makes them more knowledgeable than me. I don't get to piss and moan at them, I still have to be the face of jewelry to them. Their perception affects my life, my livelihood and my bottom line. I deal with them with a smile and continue to try and educate them, to try and get their business.

I hope that you can do the same with rabid fans.