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View Full Version : 3P defense is a problem.



Skimhvn
01-27-2018, 05:46 PM
Why are Zags so bad?

Zags11
01-27-2018, 05:58 PM
Beware the 1 star thread.

3pt defense has always been a issue minus last yr. When we lose in March a lot of times we get banged on by 3s. The coaches seem to dare opponents to beat the zags by 3. While it works to the zags favors a lot, it can be frustrating to lose that way.

Zags are #280 in the nation in 3pt defense. It will fall further after USF shoots 50% from 3.

https://www.teamrankings.com/ncaa-basketball/stat/opponent-three-point-pct

Skimhvn
01-27-2018, 06:04 PM
Sorry I posted the almost same thread.

JPtheBeasta
01-27-2018, 06:09 PM
Why are Zags so bad?

Look who’s late to the party :)

This is an ironic post because this has been the center of discussion for a long time. I respect your question but it also gave me a good laugh because of the history with his team over the years (the beers during the game might have helped, also). It seems that the one year we were good at defending the 3 was last year.

GrizZAG
01-27-2018, 06:23 PM
Watch spacing UNC, Duke and others use defending the three. They are in the shooter's grill up close and very active with their hands. Last year we did that, especially NWG. We don't rotate quick enough nor defend tight. Coaches are missing an important key here. Send em a memo ��

GonzagasaurusFlex
01-27-2018, 06:50 PM
Watch spacing UNC, Duke and others use defending the three. They are in the shooter's grill up close and very active with their hands. Last year we did that, especially NWG. We don't rotate quick enough nor defend tight. Coaches are missing an important key here. Send em a memo ��

I give the coaches a bit more credit. Perkins, Norvell and Kispert all lack lateral quickness. Opposing guards/wings can blow right by them...which can quickly lead to fouls on your bigs as they try to help. Guessing Zag coaches have a defensive strategy to leave some space and give up some 3’s rather than risk foul trouble on the bigs.

Speaking of which, Larsen minutes??

Alum08
01-27-2018, 10:00 PM
We sag too much on the weak side for our player's quickness-levels. It looks hilariously bad in conference play, but it's not really a terrible trade-off when you run into elite big men or NBA-level playmakers. We usually shut those guys down (see Markannen and Smart in recent years). The problem is when you run into an elite shooter like Curry or Walker, we are sure to get smoked. I'd love to see a box and one in spurts in those games with Melson to mess with those guys and take the pressure off of our close out speed.

roxdoc
01-27-2018, 10:33 PM
No Ken Bone this year to coach D?

MDABE80
01-27-2018, 10:38 PM
Key was wide open all night. Almost an invite to drive the key. Our defense is just full of holes. one might think Few would put his foot down.

Skimhvn
01-27-2018, 10:43 PM
I guess Gonzaga DF system has a weakpoint of 3P...

CDC84
01-28-2018, 12:33 AM
Well it's the clear weak point, because they are at 37th in adjusted defensive efficiency. That's not terrible, but it's not ideal. It's a sign that they guard 2 point shots much better. Probably at an elite level. The team would probably be in the top 15 in defense if they were even in the top 70 at defending the three.

I do find it interesting that GU is so high up in the Pomeroy rankings. #7. There are some pretty good teams behind them. I think one of the reasons why you have not had one article from an analyst written about "GU possibly missing the NCAA tourney" is because of this Pomeroy rating.

JPtheBeasta
01-28-2018, 06:18 AM
I guess Gonzaga DF system has a weakpoint of 3P...

Last year they could close out harder on three point shooters because they had more rim protectors; if a Zag player ran out too fast and the offensive player decided to take the ball to the hoop instead, we had Karnowski and Collins there to defend. This year, the Zags have to be more conservative and stay back a little bit so that their man doesn’t just drive past them.

I also saw one play where there was confusion about who should gurd the 3 point shooter and who should stay with the player who set the screen. Both went with the screener as he cut to the basket and left a man open.

They also have a scouting report that they follow, which means that they will leave a player wide open if he doesn’t shoot many 3’s. I think a player made two 3’s last night who had made only four for the entire season.

Hoopaholic
01-28-2018, 07:31 AM
As to this issue and last nights game

Excellent job in first half

Second half we saw an 18% 3 point shooter hit two as J3 clearly was told roam middle when his man out at three line

One shot was after 28 seconds of exceptional defense then scramble loose ball goes way out and 3 ball

3 directly attributed to rui and poor defensive position, didn't switch and hands down

Others were well defended

MontanaCoyote
01-28-2018, 08:29 AM
Two things. One game it's little guys driving into the paint and scoring. Then it's little guys nailing 3's. Sometimes you can't win for losing, but how you prevent BOTH at the same time (which probably needs to be done if you're going to dance very long) is beyond me.

Two, going to say it; the 3 has just become too easy. Guys are nailing 'um with a player draped all over 'um. Uncontested seems almost automatic.

Does anyone know what the college 3 pt shooting percentage was early on compared to today. Maybe I'm wrong?

Reborn
01-28-2018, 09:04 AM
And ranked 8th on BPI ranking, which I believe in the second best ranking system behind Pomroy. This has been the weirdest year ever in college basketball. The gap between the Elite programs and the nearly elite and real good teams is definitely closing. Both Duke and Carolina lost at home yesterday. Makes me feel a little better about our loss at home to St. Mary's. Honestly. I think Gonzaga is a really good basketball team, and I believe they will show it as they go down the backstretch of the schedule. Zags started out conference play playing fantastic, and then recently have slumped some. It's good to remember that most years there are ups and downs in a season.

bballbeachbum
01-28-2018, 10:21 AM
great posts, there's a history here with the issue, insightful
all starts in the paint seems to me, I'm seeing what JP sees
Zags also have had some struggles in the switching M2M defending the perimeter imo
agree with Montana that the line is too easy even with all the excitement the 3 point shot brings
hope you're right Reborn, it's still all there to be had for the Zags!

MontanaCoyote
01-28-2018, 10:51 AM
great posts, there's a history here with the issue, insightful
all starts in the paint seems to me, I'm seeing what JP sees
Zags also have had some struggles in the switching M2M defending the perimeter imo
agree with Montana that the line is too easy even with all the excitement the 3 point shot brings
hope you're right Reborn, it's still all there to be had for the Zags!

Quad B, I'm thinking if the 3 line was 2 feet further out there still would be enough 3's. Part of excitement has got to mean satisfying the anticipation of something really special happening. Kind of Like Christmas for a kid. Like what if there were 21 slam dunks a game ? if you get my drift. So just the right #'s of 3's? You got me other than at the current rate they
really don't seem very special anymore sans a bomb to win or tie at the buzzer.

STzag
01-28-2018, 06:38 PM
Alum08 is right. We overhelp/sag middle on the backside of our zone and are too slow to recover when the ball swings or when a post kicks to the opposite wing. Has been an issue for a decade+.

bballbeachbum
01-29-2018, 06:38 AM
Quad B, I'm thinking if the 3 line was 2 feet further out there still would be enough 3's. Part of excitement has got to mean satisfying the anticipation of something really special happening. Kind of Like Christmas for a kid. Like what if there were 21 slam dunks a game ? if you get my drift. So just the right #'s of 3's? You got me other than at the current rate they
really don't seem very special anymore sans a bomb to win or tie at the buzzer.

hey Montana, not sure where to move it, but think it would open up the lane and add to the flow that way and encourage more play in the paint. of course that could be totally wrong! but just seems to me the 3 point shot is overweighted now because it's too easy. I don't expect much agreement generally tho becasue of the excitement the 3 point shot brings, which it certainly does. Maybe if the Zag 3 pt. D was strong year after year I'd have a different perspective (just kidding, kind of ;))

TheGonzagaFactor
01-29-2018, 07:00 AM
Some of it is bad luck, some of it is facing good 3pt shooters...

As for what we could change to improve?

We defend the 2 pretty well. When it comes to giving up 3s, it seems we help unnecessarily in the post too often with guards that usually can't do much but foul in that situation. This is part of why we do well against the 2pt shot, but it leaves WIDE OPEN 3 point shooters. Not just wide open looks, but the kind that just make you hang your head as soon as the pass is made. It's either a made 3 or an offensive rebound leading to another wide open look 90% of the time in that situation.

We were unnecessarily helping on the perimeter more early in the season as well. These were not even effective traps, just running over and flailing their arms and leaving a good shooter with no one within 10+ feet of him for an easy 3.

Zags have given up some ridiculous circus 3s that were just laughable attempts to begin with, but at the same time they allow so many WIDE OPEN 3s with no one even close to the shooter.

Last year's squad would allow some open looks here and there, but they were better equipped to grab the rebound. They were focused on at least getting the rebound if an open shot was allowed, whereas the current team does more standing and watching. I've seen guys basically give up on the play when they see the open shooter getting the ball. If you can't grab the rebound, at least find your assignment. They are a very young group so it's understandable, but hopefully something they grow out of as the season progresses.

amaronizag
01-29-2018, 07:17 AM
Part of the reason for the rule changes implemented in the last few years was to take away the physicality and body checks that occurred during guard penetration. Guards were body checked as soon as they started to drive. The idea was to bring back the excitement of the drive/slash/lane penetration and speed up the game. The changes were also to speed up the games because teams were passing around the perimeter then throwing up a 3 as the clock ran down or running a high screen with 8 seconds left on the clock. The changes have definitely sped up the game, increased tempo, increased scoring, and made college basketball watchable again. Players have finally adjusted well to the new touch fouls so the games are much faster. I can remember going to the girls home game. When it was over, I walked to my car, drove to Appleby's on Pines, met friends at their table, and watched the end of the men's game on TV that started at the same time as the girls game. There were painfully slow basketball games. This year I'm in my car driving home from the men's game a hour and a half after tip off. GU has always been in the lower half of college teams with respect to tempo and number of 3 point shots hoisted, but since we changed our offense, we're improving in both areas. Less play in the paint this year may be a function of personnel this year compared to last. Each year you highlight and take advantage of your given talent. Last year it was bigs. This year it's great outside shooters from every position. It's the first time we've had such fire power from the perimeter so I'm loving it. Let 'em fly when they're dropping.

As for defense, GU has never had the lock down, in your face kind of defenders the blue bloods get. Maybe we have one a year at most, but not at every position so help is required to protect the middle. More so than in the past due to the rule changes. But I agree, weak side defenders sagging too far into the middle has always been a problem. Few chooses his poison and game plans accordingly.

MontanaCoyote
01-29-2018, 07:43 AM
As BeachBum Baller said above, this is and continues to be a real good thread. Several excellent posts. Talking about the nature of the game. I like it!