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Zagceo
01-25-2018, 11:15 AM
Zags have 13 games remaining in conference

http://www.spokesman.com/sports/team/gonzaga-basketball/statistics/

Markburn1
01-25-2018, 12:32 PM
I don't think it means what you think it means.

The real question should be, "Has anyone won an NCAA championship that had six players averaging double digits?" The answer is no. Kentucky came real close in 2012, but that's it since 2000.

The next question you have to ask is why? The answer to that is because, without exception, the best teams have at least one dominant player that gets the most field goal attempts and usually two. It sounds good that with so many threats to score it makes the Zags more difficult to guard, but that really isn't the case. A dominant player, or two, will carry a team far more often than a collection of players with no alpha dogs.

You need look no farther than last year's version of the Zags. Ask yourself who was going to take the critical shots game in and game out. I'm sure you will find the answer pretty quickly. Ask yourself who that player is this year. Let me know when you pick one of the six.

Zagceo
01-25-2018, 12:55 PM
I don't think it means what you think it means.

The real question should be, "Has anyone won an NCAA championship that had six players averaging double digits?" The answer is no. Kentucky came real close in 2012, but that's it since 2000.

The next question you have to ask is why? The answer to that is because, without exception, the best teams have at least one dominant player that gets the most field goal attempts and usually two. It sounds good that with so many threats to score it makes the Zags more difficult to guard, but that really isn't the case. A dominant player, or two, will carry a team far more often than a collection of players with no alpha dogs.

You need look no farther than last year's version of the Zags. Ask yourself who was going to take the critical shots game in and game out. I'm sure you will find the answer pretty quickly. Ask yourself who that player is this year. Let me know when you pick one of the six.

THE CLOSER


HERE COMES RUI

- Rui Hachimura (http://www.gozags.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/rui_hachimura_1020869.html) scored a career-high 23 points on 11-of-16 shooting from the field against Saint Mary’s. He added four rebounds and a pair of blocks in the game.


- Hachimura is leading the team at 15.3 points per game off of the bench in league play. He has made 50 of his 75 shots from the field (66.7 percent) and 22-of-27 (81.5) from the free-throw line.


- He has scored double-figures in the last nine games, averaging 15.0 points over that span. In the last nine games, the sophomore is shooting 65.9 percent from the field, including 54-of-75 (72 percent) from inside-the-arc.


- Hachimura ranks third in the West Coast Conference in free-throw percentage (.868, 46-of-53), and has made 22 of his 27 shots from the line during league play.

Hoopaholic
01-25-2018, 01:00 PM
I don't think it means what you think it means.

The real question should be, "Has anyone won an NCAA championship that had six players averaging double digits?" The answer is no. Kentucky came real close in 2012, but that's it since 2000.

The next question you have to ask is why? The answer to that is because, without exception, the best teams have at least one dominant player that gets the most field goal attempts and usually two. It sounds good that with so many threats to score it makes the Zags more difficult to guard, but that really isn't the case. A dominant player, or two, will carry a team far more often than a collection of players with no alpha dogs.

You need look no farther than last year's version of the Zags. Ask yourself who was going to take the critical shots game in and game out. I'm sure you will find the answer pretty quickly. Ask yourself who that player is this year. Let me know when you pick one of the six.

Is it safe to say you have not looked beyond 2000 for the answer to this question?

I philosophically disagree that a single stud is better than multiple players for a succesful outcome and I believe you are mixing apples and oranges when you equate multiple scoring threats and no alpha dog IMO

From a game management perspective you can now ride the hot hand for a bucket, when a single player focus could mean he is having off night and your fate rests with that single player (see last year title game for example). In addition multiple options (inside, 3 point shooting, drive to basket or slashing forward) creates logistically defending nightmares and game plan issues where you now have to prepare for all those types of responses instead of game planning for single player focus

but that is just my opinion

sittingon50
01-25-2018, 01:08 PM
Or a stud gets in foul trouble quickly.

Your Honor, I give you Ronny Turiaf vs Nevada.

jazzdelmar
01-25-2018, 01:11 PM
Hach’s FT % was in the low 90s about 20 minutes ago. What happened?

Zagceo
01-25-2018, 01:14 PM
Herb Sendek been around the block


‘’For most of the game we played well,’’ Santa Clara coach Herb Sendek said. ‘’(The Bulldogs) don’t have any weak links on the floor. There’s nobody that you can cheat off of to help on another guy easily.’’


BALANCING ACT

- GU is currently the only team in the country that has six players averaging double-digit scoring (players that qualify, which have played 75 percent of their team’s games).


- Gonzaga’s top seven scorers on the team are averaging at least 7.2 points per game.


- The Zags have had six different players lead the team in scoring this season.


- The Bulldogs are one of four teams in the nation that have had six 20-point scorers so far this season.


- GU has had at least three double-digit scorers in every game this season.


- Seven Zags finished in double-figures in the win over Santa Clara in Spokane.


- Six different Bulldogs have led the team in rebounds and eight players are averaging at least 3.1 rebounds per game.

soccerdud
01-25-2018, 01:31 PM
Hach’s FT % was in the low 90s about 20 minutes ago. What happened?

he missed a couple.

Zag_Dad
01-25-2018, 02:09 PM
he missed a couple.

That clears things up ... I don't "math" so this helps

Zagceo
01-25-2018, 03:09 PM
Nova has 5 now since Booth is out

Virginia 2 Purdue 4 Duke 5 Kansas 5

current top 5 ranked

soccerdud
01-25-2018, 03:09 PM
That clears things up ... I don't "math" so this helps

:cheers:

Markburn1
01-25-2018, 04:52 PM
Herb Sendek been around the block



Cool. St. Mary's had a go to guy last week. Just sayin'.

bballbeachbum
01-25-2018, 06:02 PM
Cool. St. Mary's had a go to guy last week. Just sayin'.

Indeed. If Landale gets his touches where he wants them, SMC controls the tempo/pace with his efficiency. If he's denied those touches where he wants them, SMC struggles some and the tempo/pace isn't theirs. Zags lack of depth at the post was an issue seems to me as JIII did great denying entry until he couldn't physically do it anymore looked like, and the pace/tempo followed (cue questions of where was Larsen and Rui on that matchup to rest JIII, including from me). My opinion.

other teams with post depth may be different for SMC to handle tho; having a go to guy is great but also a potential achilles heel if neutralized and the rest can't do it. thought the Zags showed how to do it to Landale and SMC, just couldn't maintain it.

take away his touches with strong denial and battles for post position

Markburn1
01-25-2018, 07:23 PM
Indeed. If Landale gets his touches where he wants them, SMC controls the tempo/pace with his efficiency. If he's denied those touches where he wants them, SMC struggles some and the tempo/pace isn't theirs. Zags lack of depth at the post was an issue seems to me as JIII did great denying entry until he couldn't physically do it anymore looked like, and the pace/tempo followed (cue questions of where was Larsen and Rui on that matchup to rest JIII, including from me). My opinion.

other teams with post depth may be different for SMC to handle tho; having a go to guy is great but also a potential achilles heel if neutralized and the rest can't do it. thought the Zags showed how to do it to Landale and SMC, just couldn't maintain it.

take away his touches with strong denial and battles for post position


Stars rise to the top. That's why they are called stars and hence they are the go to guys. Of course you need a supporting cast, but without the go to guy you just have the supporting cast. The ideal is exemplified by Villanova this year. They have two stars/go to guys in Brunson and Bridges. Gonzaga has yet to show that. Rui could be one. Right now they have a strong team of supporting cast players and nobody that can take over for long stretches of the game. Perkins shows signs of wanting to be that guy. I was hoping Tillie and Williams would separate themselves as well.

bballbeachbum
01-25-2018, 07:49 PM
Stars rise to the top. That's why they are called stars and hence they are the go to guys. Of course you need a supporting cast, but without the go to guy you just have the supporting cast. The ideal is exemplified by Villanova this year. They have two stars/go to guys in Brunson and Bridges. Gonzaga has yet to show that. Rui could be one. Right now they have a strong team of supporting cast players and nobody that can take over for long stretches of the game. Perkins shows signs of wanting to be that guy. I was hoping Tillie and Williams would separate themselves as well.

Thanks for that definition of stars :cheers:

seriously though, re. SMC and how to stop them, and them having a go to guy in Landale being a potential achilles heel if you stop him from getting his touches, and that maybe an opponent with the depth to do it all game can control tempo/pace vs. SMC, and that the Zags showed how to do it but couldn't sustain it...I'll stand by that.

re. the Zags, I agree mostly but have also seen some big games with guys taking over, just inconsistently as we all know, Tillie and JIII examples of that

Zagceo
01-25-2018, 10:44 PM
Kispert could be 7th with some more of these games

23dpg
01-25-2018, 10:48 PM
Kispert could be 7th with some more of these games

I think if he scores 23 points in the next 2 games he’d be there. Of course those points have to come off someone else’s total.

TexasZagFan
01-26-2018, 12:47 AM
Stars rise to the top. That's why they are called stars and hence they are the go to guys. Of course you need a supporting cast, but without the go to guy you just have the supporting cast. The ideal is exemplified by Villanova this year. They have two stars/go to guys in Brunson and Bridges. Gonzaga has yet to show that. Rui could be one. Right now they have a strong team of supporting cast players and nobody that can take over for long stretches of the game. Perkins shows signs of wanting to be that guy. I was hoping Tillie and Williams would separate themselves as well.

When the game is on the line, who gets the ball? That is the $64,000 question, and I don't know, even after 20 games.

My first inclination is to say Josh, but I'm worried the minutes he's played takes enough out of his legs to affect his shot at the end of the game.

Norvell and Kispert are a year away.

Tillie & J3? Perhaps, but J3 is a liability shooting FT's.

That leaves Silas & Rui. I need to see Silas get more selfish on offense, and do more driving to the hoop. No one's been able to consistently defend Rui, but we're talking about the WCC. In the Dance, he'll be defended by bigger, more athletic players.

We have 9 games left to get it figured out. Or shall I say six games, as you don't want to tinker around in the games left with BYU and SMC.

23dpg
01-26-2018, 11:53 AM
I think most teams don’t have that “one” guy. Teams like St Mary’s and Oklahoma are the outliers. Also, if your team’s go to guy is a big, they are easier to scheme against in the last few seconds of the game. I think most of the top teams in college today have a system that works for them with multiple very good players.

Additionally, if Silas scores at least 2 points on Saturday and Kispert scores just 50, the Zags will have 7 players averaging double figures. Easy peasy

maynard g krebs
01-26-2018, 03:37 PM
St Mary's doesn't play "go to guy" basketball. Just the opposite. They take what you give them, and that's what makes them the third best offensive team in the country behind only the far more talented Nova and Duke teams.

Guard Landale one on one with anything less than a Jabbar Award finalist type, and they go inside and he shoots 70 -80% . Take him away, and anybody from Hermanson, Naar, and now Krebs or Ford, even Fitzner will confidently take the shot. They don't force it to Landale; they look for the point of least resistance, wherever it is.

Kind of like the old days in the NBA, thinking of the '73 Knicks and '77 Blazers just to name 2 NBA champions, who both had 8 or 9 guys averaging between 8 and 20. Those teams moved the ball, played equal opportunity basketball, and everybody was confident to take the big shot. Much harder to guard 5 guys than one.

Before Jordan, the fact was that no one had ever won a championship w/ the league's leading scorer on the team. Of course, rule enforcement was changed to market Jordan's superstardom to non-basketball fans.

I once heard an interview w/ Blazers' allstar Lionel Hollins, maybe 20 yrs ago, when he was an NBA asst coach. He said something to the effect that "the game has changed. Players today don't have the skills we had, so we have to coach differently". I took that to mean that guys didn't pass and move w/o the ball as well. Star players didn't grow up playing team ball like in the past, and by the time they were in college or the pros it was too late to teach them, so they had to run more set plays/iso's for the stars.

Last year the Zags had the "go to" guy. He upped his shots from 11 to almost 16 in NCAA tourney games, and his fg% in the tourney dropped to 35% from 52% in the season. It took a dominant interior defense w/ tremendous size and depth to compensate for that offensive failure. That's what the Zags lack this year for a deep run.

bballbeachbum
01-26-2018, 05:55 PM
St Mary's doesn't play "go to guy" basketball. Just the opposite. They take what you give them, and that's what makes them the third best offensive team in the country behind only the far more talented Nova and Duke teams.

Guard Landale one on one with anything less than a Jabbar Award finalist type, and they go inside and he shoots 70 -80% . Take him away, and anybody from Hermanson, Naar, and now Krebs or Ford, even Fitzner will confidently take the shot. They don't force it to Landale; they look for the point of least resistance, wherever it is.

Kind of like the old days in the NBA, thinking of the '73 Knicks and '77 Blazers just to name 2 NBA champions, who both had 8 or 9 guys averaging between 8 and 20. Those teams moved the ball, played equal opportunity basketball, and everybody was confident to take the big shot. Much harder to guard 5 guys than one.

Before Jordan, the fact was that no one had ever won a championship w/ the league's leading scorer on the team. Of course, rule enforcement was changed to market Jordan's superstardom to non-basketball fans.

I once heard an interview w/ Blazers' allstar Lionel Hollins, maybe 20 yrs ago, when he was an NBA asst coach. He said something to the effect that "the game has changed. Players today don't have the skills we had, so we have to coach differently". I took that to mean that guys didn't pass and move w/o the ball as well. Star players didn't grow up playing team ball like in the past, and by the time they were in college or the pros it was too late to teach them, so they had to run more set plays/iso's for the stars.

Last year the Zags had the "go to" guy. He upped his shots from 11 to almost 16 in NCAA tourney games, and his fg% in the tourney dropped to 35% from 52% in the season. It took a dominant interior defense w/ tremendous size and depth to compensate for that offensive failure. That's what the Zags lack this year for a deep run.

Very thoughtful post as usual

Hear and agree with much of what you’re saying but have to disagree on Landale as go to guy or not. Agree SMC is all the things you said, but they also go to Landale and seemingly try to get him the touch every half court possession. I’m sure that’s not true, and maybe we define go to guy differently somewhat. But Bennett goes to Landale bullying up on the block, and swinging the ball so he can slip into gaps from the weakside, and pick and holding so the switch occurs and their guards wait for him to seal down low, etc.

With Nigel, you could just put the ball in his hands, and he had a strong post option typically too so 2 go tos on that team seemed to me, but with Landale, the whole team has to work together to go to him, they’ve got to know that’s what they’re doing, going to him, to execute so awesomely seems to me.

And Lew would be great, but 2 or maybe 2 and a half JIIIs on a team might be able to do it

maynard g krebs
01-26-2018, 06:31 PM
Very thoughtful post as usual

Hear and agree with much of what you’re saying but have to disagree on Landale as go to guy or not. Agree SMC is all the things you said, but they also go to Landale and seemingly try to get him the touch every half court possession. I’m sure that’s not true, and maybe we define go to guy differently somewhat. But Bennett goes to Landale bullying up on the block, and swinging the ball so he can slip into gaps from the weakside, and pick and holding so the switch occurs and their guards wait for him to seal down low, etc.

With Nigel, you could just put the ball in his hands, and he had a strong post option typically too so 2 go tos on that team seemed to me, but with Landale, the whole team has to work together to go to him, they’ve got to know that’s what they’re doing, going to him, to execute so awesomely seems to me.



Agree w/ what you're saying. I didn't express myself well. I was speaking more generally to the idea of making sure a particular player takes the biggest shots at the end of a tight game v a tough opponent, which you can do w/ a Jordan, or an Ammo on the college level; Ohio State seems to have that guy in Bates-Diop now, for ex. But those guys are rare, and most teams don't have them.

With Landale, they certainly focus on getting him the ball and if you play him straight he's gonna take the shot, but if he's doubled someone else will, and at that point it's pretty much equal opportunity for the rest of those guys; whoever's open.

Generally the point is that I think that historically, the best basketball is played by teams with balance rather than those that rely too heavily on their stars for scoring. And I think the game would improve if it got back to that.

Zagceo
01-27-2018, 12:01 AM
Last year the Zags had the "go to" guy. He upped his shots from 11 to almost 16 in NCAA tourney games, and his fg% in the tourney dropped to 35% from 52% in the season. It took a dominant interior defense w/ tremendous size and depth to compensate for that offensive failure. That's what the Zags lack this year for a deep run.

Ha ha ha .....failure .....

who’s trolling now :lmao:

bballbeachbum
01-27-2018, 12:59 PM
Agree w/ what you're saying. I didn't express myself well. I was speaking more generally to the idea of making sure a particular player takes the biggest shots at the end of a tight game v a tough opponent, which you can do w/ a Jordan, or an Ammo on the college level; Ohio State seems to have that guy in Bates-Diop now, for ex. But those guys are rare, and most teams don't have them.

With Landale, they certainly focus on getting him the ball and if you play him straight he's gonna take the shot, but if he's doubled someone else will, and at that point it's pretty much equal opportunity for the rest of those guys; whoever's open.

Generally the point is that I think that historically, the best basketball is played by teams with balance rather than those that rely too heavily on their stars for scoring. And I think the game would improve if it got back to that.

right on maynard, I hear you. certainly many ways to do it depending on a team's pieces
dig the way this Zags team moves the ball when they're doing it, down the stretch would take some guts to run some motion and see what can be created vs. going straight to someone like the Zags did with Rui down the stretch, even tho it didn't work this time