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LTownZag
01-20-2018, 09:43 PM
I think Josh is a better catch-and-shoot scorer than Norvell, but he struggles to get good looks and open shots when he is tasked with handling the ball. But Norvell has a better ability to drive to the basket, finish through contact, and create offense via driving and kicking or taking it to the rack, and his court vision and passing seem good. Some really high IQ passing the last few games.

Wouldn't the best 5 (against most teams) be:

PG: Zach Norvell

SG: Josh Perkins

Wing: Rui

Power Forward: Tillie

Power Forward: Williams


(then liberally sub in Jeremy Jones and Melson for defense and free throw shooting, with Larsen seeing a few minutes especially against slower teams.)

For what it's worth, I fully never expect Coach Few to do this. His dogmatic prioritization of seniors is one of the very few things that bugs me. It didn't keep Collins from being noticed and going a 1-and-done, and I don't think it will extend Rui's time either. I see wanting to encourage and reward long-term players, but the top 5 should start.

B Wayne
01-20-2018, 10:20 PM
I don't think Few prioritizes seniors disproportionately. I think he values each and every possession offense and defense and thus is cognizant of mistakes. On the average an experienced player makes less mistakes than a player with less experience even if that new player may have more talent. I think he recognizes that talent, but prudently weighs that against possible greater mistakes. Thus you may have come to the conclusion that he plays seniors too much. But he knows more than any of us amateurs here on the board, balances out the decision process, and has attained several Sweet 16s, 2 elite 8s and a national championship game from a program that was unknown 20 years ago.

hooter73
01-20-2018, 11:02 PM
No. Floor general, not stats. Pangos didn’t always have the stats but he could manage a game. Zach is playing amazing but he is not a manager... and I will leave it at that.

whatazag
01-21-2018, 12:23 AM
Next year. (Assuming rumor that Perkins will leave is true.)

Edit: Sorry, shouldn't have said rumor. It has just been mentioned that since he is graduating and is unlikely to substantially improve his pro prospects in another season he may go. Maybe if he is enjoying college or he thinks we have a chance at a special team next year he will stay. For the record I hope he does.

Zags11
01-21-2018, 12:32 AM
Next year. (Assuming rumor that Perkins will leave is true.)

Source?

billbow47
01-21-2018, 01:40 AM
Love that lineup. Agree Norvell much better passer off the dribble. He also gets into our offense quicker. Excellent to the basket....unlike Perkins who, it seems, makes at least one inexplicable drive into trouble a game. When Norvell drives, more often than not, he will either score, get fouled, or dish. Would just like him at point for a game and see what happens. Agree with you Few unlikely to use your lineup.

Malastein
01-21-2018, 02:21 AM
Insane statement. No bearing in reality yet. He could blossom later in his career a la James Harden as a point guard, but sharing the basketball is not a natural instinct for Norvell at this point. He’s up and down with it all, but has the potential. Josh Perkins is pretty solid.

JAGzag
01-21-2018, 03:25 AM
This would not surprise me one bit. Josh has or will graduate from what I hear and he has nothing to prove here. He could have his pick of schools and be a very effective 2 guard with a team that has a solid point guard.

JPtheBeasta
01-21-2018, 05:26 AM
Norvell is a really good play-making shooting guard. I like him where he is. Perkins has cut back on his turnovers. We need Kispert to get it going and keep running offense for Tillie so that we can get some production out of him, as well.

raise the zag
01-21-2018, 05:43 AM
Next year. (Assuming rumor that Perkins will leave is true.)

I haven't heard anything of the sort. This kind of rumor or news would typically slip or sneak out amongst players, staff, families, or friends.

I've heard of Tillie and Rui declaring, and taking their chances this off season. Both could return. Or impress/intrigue scouts enough to leave as well.

Haven't heard a peep mentioned about Josh.

jazzdelmar
01-21-2018, 05:50 AM
Norvell would play at Villanova. A lot.

thespywhozaggedme
01-21-2018, 06:30 AM
I think Josh is a better catch-and-shoot scorer than Norvell, but he struggles to get good looks and open shots when he is tasked with handling the ball. But Norvell has a better ability to drive to the basket, finish through contact, and create offense via driving and kicking or taking it to the rack, and his court vision and passing seem good. Some really high IQ passing the last few games.

Wouldn't the best 5 (against most teams) be:

PG: Zach Norvell

SG: Josh Perkins

Wing: Rui

Power Forward: Tillie

Power Forward: Williams


(then liberally sub in Jeremy Jones and Melson for defense and free throw shooting, with Larsen seeing a few minutes especially against slower teams.)

For what it's worth, I fully never expect Coach Few to do this. His dogmatic prioritization of seniors is one of the very few things that bugs me. It didn't keep Collins from being noticed and going a 1-and-done, and I don't think it will extend Rui's time either. I see wanting to encourage and reward long-term players, but the top 5 should start.

Yes, that is the best lineup, but Few is extremely loyal to his seniors and he's not going to replace Silas. But going forward down the road, yes I believe Zach can play point guard full time. The announcers last night were raving about his court vision and passing.

LongIslandZagFan
01-21-2018, 06:31 AM
But not at PG

thespywhozaggedme
01-21-2018, 06:34 AM
But not at PG

Agreed, for this year ideally he should replace Silas as the starting shooting guard if you want the best five on the court to start the game. But again, Few is very loyal to his seniors. But down the road if we still need a replacement for Josh at the point guard spot, I think Zach can do it very well.

jazzdelmar
01-21-2018, 06:41 AM
But not at PG

You talkin' to me?

bigblahla
01-21-2018, 08:02 AM
I always wonder what others see with their eyes...Can Norvell play PG?....hell yes....do you think he was a center in high school? He needs to improve his handles but who doesn't? I think the term floor general is more important than PG. It's not about who brings the ball up the court, it's about who can fire up the TEAM and make them better at what they do...saw Zack in JP's ear after he dribbled into trouble and turned the ball over....would have loved to hear that conversation....I'm not down on JP but don't see him as a team leader and this team desperately needs someone to step up and speak out on the court. I don't care who does it but someone has too...Norvell works for me...

Just my opinion...

Go!! Zags!!!

jazzdelmar
01-21-2018, 08:41 AM
Norvell’s demeanor on the court is rare for a frosh. Calm. Patient. Not trash talking with players or griping to refs. On that subject, I love Rui but was bothered a bit when he smirked at a SC player after scoring one time. Not a good look, he’s better than that.

TexasZagFan
01-21-2018, 08:51 AM
Norvell’s demeanor on the court is rare for a frosh. Calm. Patient. Not trash talking with players or griping to refs. On that subject, I love Rui but was bothered a bit when he smirked at a SC player after scoring one time. Not a good look, he’s better than that.

Zach's grown into a better basketball player since the start of the season. There's no doubt in my mind he'd be one of the nation's top scorers if he had the same green light as Trae Young.

Not that I want him to change...

jazzdelmar
01-21-2018, 08:57 AM
Zach's grown into a better basketball player since the start of the season. There's no doubt in my mind he'd be one of the nation's top scorers if he had the same green light as Trae Young.

Not that I want him to change...

Trae is a travesty. Lon should be embarrassed.

thespywhozaggedme
01-21-2018, 09:12 AM
Trae is a travesty. Lon should be embarrassed.

But the flipside is that he is literally the only player on the team that can actually score points. Without him they might not win more than five games.

cggonzaga
01-21-2018, 09:44 AM
Question for all the “Perkins is a two guard” crowd. Why didn’t anybody around here say that about Dickau, Raivio or Pangos? Josh takes less shots than those guys and averages more assists. I’d argue he’s the most complete PG we’ve had at GU in the past 20 years as he’s a much better defender than any of those others. I don’t want to hear the “he doesn’t run the offense “ because none of us know this as we aren’t privy to what the staff expects.

thespywhozaggedme
01-21-2018, 10:01 AM
Question for all the “Perkins is a two guard” crowd. Why didn’t anybody around here say that about Dickau, Raivio or Pangos? Josh takes less shots than those guys and averages more assists. I’d argue he’s the most complete PG we’ve had at GU in the past 20 years as he’s a much better defender than any of those others. I don’t want to hear the “he doesn’t run the offense “ because none of us know this as we aren’t privy to what the staff expects.

I would not call jazz and Abe and the op a "crowd". I'm talking about when Josh is gone I believe that Zach could be the heir apparent. He has excellent court vision and is a great passer plus he is a prolific score.

MileHigh
01-21-2018, 10:11 AM
If it aint broke dont fix it.

Gonzaga's offense is one of the most efficient in the nation. Norvell has been great at scoring the ball and dishing as a combo guard and Josh has had plenty of catch and shoot looks (most 3's in WCC) and is on a pace to potentially have a 200 assist season which is rarefied air in Zagville (Steppe, Santangelo, and Stockton only others to do it) while playing pg.

Hoopaholic
01-21-2018, 10:14 AM
I believe norvell success at attacking rim is due to teams going way out on Perkins and defensively trying to remove or disrupt his game leaving open lanes for norvell to exploit

He needs to continue what he showed against sc.

MileHigh
01-21-2018, 10:15 AM
Norvell’s demeanor on the court is rare for a frosh. Calm. Patient. Not trash talking with players or griping to refs. On that subject, I love Rui but was bothered a bit when he smirked at a SC player after scoring one time. Not a good look, he’s better than that.

Personally, a little "you cant guard me" smirk from a player is something I love in a player. Shows confidence and can potentially take the other player out of his game.

Bird and Jordan were the masters of it, but they took it way beyond facial expressions and actually would talk players out of their comfort zone

thespywhozaggedme
01-21-2018, 10:18 AM
If it aint broke dont fix it.

Gonzaga's offense is one of the most efficient in the nation. Norvell has been great at scoring the ball and dishing as a combo guard and Josh has had plenty of catch and shoot looks (most 3's in WCC) and is on a pace to potentially have a 200 assist season which is rarefied air in Zagville (Steppe, Santangelo, and Stockton only others to do it) while playing pg.

Agree with everything that you wrote. Let me ask you this though, since I usually agree and respect your opinion; Do you think Zach could take over full time as a dynamic point guard if we don't have a great replacement for Josh when he leaves? Because after watching him this season, I actually think he can make the transition full time to point guard. Thanks

jazzdelmar
01-21-2018, 10:21 AM
Personally, a little "you cant guard me" smirk from a player is something I love in a player. Shows confidence and can potentially take the other player out of his game.

Bird and Jordan were the masters of it, but they took it way beyond facial expressions and actually would talk players out of their comfort zone

No argument there. But I would like to see Rui put a body of work together first, particularly against teams with fewer than three digit rankings.

GrizZAG
01-21-2018, 10:22 AM
Re-watch the games. Who is the defender caught too far away from a 3 point shooter too often. I'ts killing us defending the 3. I'll leave it to you to decide. I know it can happen on any player's watch, but one or two stand out. Who are they?

Kong-Kool-Aid
01-21-2018, 10:31 AM
What the?

No.. no... no... no... no. We have the 7th best adjusted Offense in the country.

Seriously, why is this even an idea?

MileHigh
01-21-2018, 10:31 AM
Agree with everything that you wrote. Let me ask you this though, since I usually agree and respect your opinion; Do you think Zach could take over full time as a dynamic point guard if we don't have a great replacement for Josh when he leaves? Because after watching him this season, I actually think he can make the transition full time to point guard. Thanks

If you mean playing a pass first pg role, then no, I dont think Zach is the guy. If you mean playing the position similar to NWG where you look to score first then I think he is your guy. He is more Russell Westbrook then Chris Paul. One thing I have yet to see is his ability to be the main ball handler vs. intense ball pressure defense. If he is going to be your 1 he has to be your best ballhandler. One thing is for certain though, he gets buckets, and if I were coaching I would design the offense to get him 12-15 shots every game. This might require less post touches than Few is accustomed to, but you have to coach to your strength.

cggonzaga
01-21-2018, 10:32 AM
I believe norvell success at attacking rim is due to teams going way out on Perkins and defensively trying to remove or disrupt his game leaving open lanes for norvell to exploit

He needs to continue what he showed against sc.

Norvell is the quintessential combo guard imo. Can score from anywhere on the court while also being a playmaker. Great passer and willing rebounder. I think Norvell will be a college bball player of the year candidate before he leaves GU with continued improvement.

MileHigh
01-21-2018, 10:38 AM
No argument there. But I would like to see Rui put a body of work together first, particularly against teams with fewer than three digit rankings.

I just hope y'all realize that if Rui keeps improving over the next two months, at the same rate he has the previous two months, there is no way he comes back. He will be a first round draft pick. Physically he is the total package, and it appears his feel for the game and bball IQ are catching up.

zagfan1
01-21-2018, 10:56 AM
Question for all the “Perkins is a two guard” crowd. Why didn’t anybody around here say that about Dickau, Raivio or Pangos? Josh takes less shots than those guys and averages more assists. I’d argue he’s the most complete PG we’ve had at GU in the past 20 years as he’s a much better defender than any of those others. I don’t want to hear the “he doesn’t run the offense “ because none of us know this as we aren’t privy to what the staff expects.

I think that Josh is way more inconsistent than Dickau, Raivio, or Pangos which negates his floor general skills significantly. He makes way more turnovers, fades late in games when he is needed the most, and doesn’t have to put the same amount of focus on each game as the others. At the end of games Raivio would come through plus he was a 90%+ free throw shooter (the best in GU history). From a physical ability standpoint Josh is more talented than all the three of the others. However, any day of the week I would take the other three over Josh which is unfortunate. Just look at Goss (our best PG outside of Stockton), we see what a complete PG can
Do and we were spoiled. Look at last year during the BYU game where we almost lost. Goss provided the leadership we needed to pull through and win. Last week’s loss to ST Marys at home is a perfect example where Josh needed to execute more assists or at least do more than six points for his minutes played. That’s why we are questioning whether the two guard position will be better for Josh.

Zagceo
01-21-2018, 11:11 AM
What the?

No.. no... no... no... no. We have the 7th best adjusted Offense in the country.

Seriously, why is this even an idea?


zags made 3 FGS in last 10min asgainst SMC with that 7th best adjusted offense..just sayin

Hoopaholic
01-21-2018, 11:20 AM
zags made 3 FGS in last 10min asgainst SMC with that 7th best adjusted offense..just sayin

And norvell did nothing in that time period just saying

Hoopaholic
01-21-2018, 11:27 AM
I think that Josh is way more inconsistent than Dickau, Raivio, or Pangos which negates his floor general skills significantly. He makes way more turnovers, fades late in games when he is needed the most, and doesn’t have to put the same amount of focus on each game as the others. At the end of games Raivio would come through plus he was a 90%+ free throw shooter (the best in GU history). From a physical ability standpoint Josh is more talented than all the three of the others. However, any day of the week I would take the other three over Josh which is unfortunate. Just look at Goss (our best PG outside of Stockton), we see what a complete PG can
Do and we were spoiled. Look at last year during the BYU game where we almost lost. Goss provided the leadership we needed to pull through and win. Last week’s loss to ST Marys at home is a perfect example where Josh needed to execute more assists or at least do more than six points for his minutes played. That’s why we are questioning whether the two guard position will be better for Josh.

Execute more assists? He had 7. With 10 if rui hits bunny. J3 hits his bunny and melson hits open look all inside 8 minute mark Norvell had zero

As to shooting I think he would be first to say he had bad night shooting it happens....

But in last ten minutes we saw melson miss layup rui miss a bunny. Williams miss a bunny, Perkins miss a three ball and jumper and norvell miss a free throw all with direct impact on outcome of game

LTownZag
01-21-2018, 11:31 AM
What the?

No.. no... no... no... no. We have the 7th best adjusted Offense in the country.

Seriously, why is this even an idea?

It's an idea because:

We need not ask "is our offense good?"

We ought to ask "How can our offense be better?"

cggonzaga
01-21-2018, 11:33 AM
I think that Josh is way more inconsistent than Dickau, Raivio, or Pangos which negates his floor general skills significantly. He makes way more turnovers, fades late in games when he is needed the most, and doesn’t have to put the same amount of focus on each game as the others. At the end of games Raivio would come through plus he was a 90%+ free throw shooter (the best in GU history). From a physical ability standpoint Josh is more talented than all the three of the others. However, any day of the week I would take the other three over Josh which is unfortunate. Just look at Goss (our best PG outside of Stockton), we see what a complete PG can
Do and we were spoiled. Look at last year during the BYU game where we almost lost. Goss provided the leadership we needed to pull through and win. Last week’s loss to ST Marys at home is a perfect example where Josh needed to execute more assists or at least do more than six points for his minutes played. That’s why we are questioning whether the two guard position will be better for Josh.

A couple responses. Nobody turned the ball over more than Dickau and it’s not close. Raivio constantly looked for his own shot. If we want to talk about players fading away in big games or at crunch time, then Pangos is your man. Not a lot of what you wrote answered the 2 guard question though. To me a 2 guard is your scoring guard. Somebody that hunts their shot. That’s not Perkins. Don’t get my question confused with “best” point guard because that’s not what I’m asking. I’m asking why people consider Josh a 2 guard but not the others.

Zagceo
01-21-2018, 11:42 AM
And norvell did nothing in that time period just saying

how many touches did Norvell get? He was on the bench a lot of those 10min..:)

cggonzaga
01-21-2018, 11:47 AM
It's an idea because:

We need not ask "is our offense good?"

We ought to ask "How can our offense be better?"

1) statistically the offense can’t get much better.

2) how does moving a point guard averaging almost 6apg make the offense better?

Zagceo
01-21-2018, 11:58 AM
1) statistically the offense can’t get much better.

2) how does moving a point guard averaging almost 6apg make the offense better?

averages don’t tell the whole story

last nights numbers combined with SMC stats say one thing

in crunch time ....would be nice to have a PG that can call own number and create shot and finish strong...

thespywhozaggedme
01-21-2018, 12:17 PM
If you mean playing a pass first pg role, then no, I dont think Zach is the guy. If you mean playing the position similar to NWG where you look to score first then I think he is your guy. He is more Russell Westbrook then Chris Paul. One thing I have yet to see is his ability to be the main ball handler vs. intense ball pressure defense. If he is going to be your 1 he has to be your best ballhandler. One thing is for certain though, he gets buckets, and if I were coaching I would design the offense to get him 12-15 shots every game. This might require less post touches than Few is accustomed to, but you have to coach to your strength.

Agree with what you wrote as usual. If Few decided to have ZN as the starting pg after Josh I think 18ppg and 7apg is possible. Thanks

Hoopaholic
01-21-2018, 12:21 PM
averages don’t tell the whole story

last nights numbers combined with SMC stats say one thing

in crunch time ....would be nice to have a PG that can call own number and create shot and finish strong...

????? With norvell and Perkins on court what is stopping coach few from putting norvell into this role....nothing but trust and confidence IMO

Zagceo
01-21-2018, 12:27 PM
????? With norvell and Perkins on court what is stopping coach few from putting norvell into this role....nothing but trust and confidence IMO

trusting Seniors to Jack up 3’s in crunch time when you need points tells me trust and confidence needs to be adjusted..IMO

Reborn
01-21-2018, 12:34 PM
Mark Few's offense is played best when he has two really good combo guards. I think last night showed that Norvell should be the two guard. I have no complaints right now about Josh being the point guard. He played great last night, and with Norvell also playing a very good passing game (7 assists) it seemed to help Josh and the team. I believe if I've learned anything about the game last night, it's that Norvell needs to be the two guard, and that he needs the ball in his hands more. When you have combo guards they are both point guards and shooting guards, and for this team when these two are the #1 and #2 guards, the offense flows the way it should. Thus cohesion develops the way it should and the chemistry looks really good. The thing about Melson, imo, he is not a good passer. He is a safe passer, and doesn't turn the ball over, but he also is not making assists which every team needs. The assists to Turn Overs was really good last night, 18-9. What to do with Rui is a whole other deal, so I'll skip it for now. This thread is about Norvell and Perkins.

Go Zags!!!

Hoopaholic
01-21-2018, 12:40 PM
trusting Seniors to Jack up 3’s in crunch time when you need points tells me trust and confidence needs to be adjusted..IMO

When and where did this occur?

Hoopaholic
01-21-2018, 12:41 PM
Mark Few's offense is played best when he has two really good combo guards. I think last night showed that Norvell should be the two guard. I have no complaints right now about Josh being the point guard. He played great last night, and with Norvell also playing a very good passing game (7 assists) it seemed to help Josh and the team. I believe if I've learned anything about the game last night, it's that Norvell needs to be the two guard, and that he needs the ball in his hands more. When you have combo guards they are both point guards and shooting guards, and for this team when these two are the #1 and #2 guards, the offense flows the way it should. Thus cohesion develops the way it should and the chemistry looks really good. The thing about Melson, imo, he is not a good passer. He is a safe passer, and doesn't turn the ball over, but he also is not making assists which every team needs. The assists to Turn Overs was really good last night, 18-9. What to do with Rui is a whole other deal, so I'll skip it for now. This thread is about Norvell and Perkins.

Go Zags!!!

As we start to see emergence of rui develop in 3 slot I suspect we will see more and more court time with Perkins Zach and rui

Zagceo
01-21-2018, 12:43 PM
When and where did this occur?

7:13 Perkins

3:33 Williams

0:05 Perkins last play coming out of time out

second half SMC

tummydoc
01-21-2018, 12:45 PM
Sad that Jesse isn't even in this discussion.. ...Sad but all too true.

jazzdelmar
01-21-2018, 12:49 PM
Sad that Jesse isn't even in this discussion.. ...Sad but all too true.

Haven’t even thought of him. You’re right, sad.

spike_jr
01-21-2018, 01:19 PM
If it aint broke dont fix it.

Gonzaga's offense is one of the most efficient in the nation. Norvell has been great at scoring the ball and dishing as a combo guard and Josh has had plenty of catch and shoot looks (most 3's in WCC) and is on a pace to potentially have a 200 assist season which is rarefied air in Zagville (Steppe, Santangelo, and Stockton only others to do it) while playing pg.

I don't know MH, we have only played 1 decent team in the last month, SMC, and we managed only 29 points in a half and at home. In 3 of our losses (Nova, SDSU & SMC), the offense has looked neither elite nor efficient . With that said, teams have learned the you pick JP up early, harass him, and make him work because the offense has really sputtered when JP is on the bench or not playing well. Nor can we play the kid for 38 min/night, especially as the primary ball handler. I would like to see somebody else out there to help keep the opposing defenses honest and take some of the load off of Josh. And although ZN has been a starter along with Josh, has not been much of a ball handler when Josh is on the floor.

Hoopaholic
01-21-2018, 02:05 PM
7:13 Perkins

3:33 Williams

0:05 Perkins last play coming out of time out

second half SMC

Yep j3 was poor shot

Perkins last second heave was prayer

Not exactly jacking up 3 in last ten minutes imo

Norvell and melson disappeared

mgadfly
01-21-2018, 03:07 PM
I think that Josh is way more inconsistent than Dickau, Raivio, or Pangos which negates his floor general skills significantly. He makes way more turnovers, fades late in games when he is needed the most, and doesn’t have to put the same amount of focus on each game as the others. At the end of games Raivio would come through plus he was a 90%+ free throw shooter (the best in GU history). From a physical ability standpoint Josh is more talented than all the three of the others. However, any day of the week I would take the other three over Josh which is unfortunate. Just look at Goss (our best PG outside of Stockton), we see what a complete PG can
Do and we were spoiled. Look at last year during the BYU game where we almost lost. Goss provided the leadership we needed to pull through and win. Last week’s loss to ST Marys at home is a perfect example where Josh needed to execute more assists or at least do more than six points for his minutes played. That’s why we are questioning whether the two guard position will be better for Josh.

I don't think Josh should be taken off the point guard duty as he has been our most effective player at that spot all season and has put up numbers consistent with top tier point guards. Interesting in some way that you compared him to three guys, and two of them lost their point guard spot to someone else while at GU. The difference here is Norvell (who is a great combo guard) isn't Jeremy Pargo or David Stockton. So the replacement guard isn't good enough at the specialty as the guards that pushed Pangos and Raivio to the shooting guard spot. Both of those players excelled away from the ball while Perkins struggled a lot last year playing the 2.

I do get nervous when we take them both out at the same time leaving Melson as the primary ball-handler.

maynard g krebs
01-21-2018, 03:53 PM
I think that Josh is way more inconsistent than Dickau, Raivio, or Pangos which negates his floor general skills significantly. He makes way more turnovers,

Dickau turned it over a lot more than Perkins. Correcting this false meme seems to be a full time job, lol. Perk a bit over 2 a game, Dickau over 3 w/ similar asst. #s. True Pangos seldom turned it over and has highest a/to ratio.

Kong-Kool-Aid
01-21-2018, 04:03 PM
zags made 3 FGS in last 10min asgainst SMC with that 7th best adjusted offense..just sayin

Well then lets blow up the whole thing!

Kong-Kool-Aid
01-21-2018, 04:04 PM
It's an idea because:

We need not ask "is our offense good?"

We ought to ask "How can our offense be better?"

Or maybe our D?

maynard g krebs
01-21-2018, 04:05 PM
Just because a guy can handle the ball and pass doesn't mean he should be a primary playmaker. Norvell is at his best imo catching a pass in the flow of the offense, in position to shoot or drive, depending on how his defender reacts.

IMO you don't want to burden a gifted scorer w/ too much of the playmaking duties; takes too much energy from what he does best. You can put the ball in his hands in the half court and use him in sort of a point forward role, like Brandon Roy did a lot at UW, to take advantage of his playmaking skills.

I'd only use him as primary pg in a pinch, i.e. injury or foul trouble.

Hoopaholic
01-21-2018, 04:09 PM
Just because a guy can handle the ball and pass doesn't mean he should be a primary playmaker. Norvell is at his best imo catching a pass in the flow of the offense, in position to shoot or drive, depending on how his defender reacts.

IMO you don't want to burden a gifted scorer w/ too much of the playmaking duties; takes too much energy from what he does best. You can put the ball in his hands in the half court and use him in sort of a point forward role, like Brandon Roy did a lot at UW, to take advantage of his playmaking skills.

I'd only use him as primary pg in a pinch, i.e. injury or foul trouble.

Yep nothing like taking a dynamic wing and have him pass ball to get offense going then go away from ball
Zack so much better getting ball within in the offense and having scoring mindset. Just need him to become consistent in hunting his looks

JPtheBeasta
01-21-2018, 04:33 PM
This thread seems like a red herring. Isn't the premise actually: Should Rui play the 3 and Melson come off the bench? Norvell can create all he wants when he is in there from the shooting guard spot. Nobody is stopping him. Few's teams regularly have a combo guard who can create for others.

Zagceo
01-21-2018, 04:36 PM
This thread seems like a red herring. Isn't the premise actually: Should Rui play the 3 and Melson come off the bench? Norvell can create all he wants when he is in there from the shooting guard spot. Nobody is stopping him. Few's teams regularly have a combo guard who can create for others.

yes

jazzdelmar
01-21-2018, 04:44 PM
This thread seems like a red herring. Isn't the premise actually: Should Rui play the 3 and Melson come off the bench? Norvell can create all he wants when he is in there from the shooting guard spot. Nobody is stopping him. Few's teams regularly have a combo guard who can create for others.

Bingo.

Hoopaholic
01-21-2018, 05:01 PM
This thread seems like a red herring. Isn't the premise actually: Should Rui play the 3 and Melson come off the bench? Norvell can create all he wants when he is in there from the shooting guard spot. Nobody is stopping him. Few's teams regularly have a combo guard who can create for others.

We are seeing rui play a lot of minutes at 3

As to starting I vote no for following

1. We lose one of the best perimeter defenders which is critical when starting games and second half
2. Rui gets ability to see what is occurring on court and coaches can provide explanation as this is critical to his growth
3 major changes just because can create morale and team chemistry issues
4. Rui still defensive liability so we would have two n court to start games could lead to digging holes each half
5. Foul trouble for rui which could bind us later in game
6. Forces Larsen into relief rotation for tille and J3. Not good nor is he ready imo

Kong-Kool-Aid
01-21-2018, 05:46 PM
We are seeing rui play a lot of minutes at 3

As to starting I vote no for following

1. We lose one of the best perimeter defenders which is critical when starting games and second half
2. Rui gets ability to see what is occurring on court and coaches can provide explanation as this is critical to his growth
3 major changes just because can create morale and team chemistry issues
4. Rui still defensive liability so we would have two n court to start games could lead to digging holes each half
5. Foul trouble for rui which could bind us later in game
6. Forces Larsen into relief rotation for tille and J3. Not good nor is he ready imo

You got it

jazzdelmar
01-21-2018, 05:58 PM
We are seeing rui play a lot of minutes at 3

As to starting I vote no for following

1. We lose one of the best perimeter defenders which is critical when starting games and second half
2. Rui gets ability to see what is occurring on court and coaches can provide explanation as this is critical to his growth
3 major changes just because can create morale and team chemistry issues
4. Rui still defensive liability so we would have two n court to start games could lead to digging holes each half
5. Foul trouble for rui which could bind us later in game
6. Forces Larsen into relief rotation for tille and J3. Not good nor is he ready imo

Good points all.

Reborn
01-21-2018, 06:55 PM
There is a pretty large contrast between the game with St Mary's and the one against Santa Clara yesterday. I've outlined those in my two posts on this thread. I'd like to add that in this game the five players on the court when Gonzaga had a lead of ten points with about 10 minutes to go in the game. For the first six minutes Gonzaga had Perkins, Norvell, Kispert, Rui and Tillie in the game, and the Zags boosted that lead up to twenty points. Kispert did not score but he was in the game for at least 8 minutes I think while Zags took over the game. I believe Perkins also went out for a few of those minutes to rest him and Rui played the three and Kispert the two and Norvell ran the offense.

I think Few is really beginning to look at team chemistry and cohesiveness because of how important these things are to winning. I feel right now that diminishing Melson's and JW3's minutes somewhat is a key to becoming a better team. To increase the roles of Rui and Norvell is equally as important. I think to increase Norvell's role as a passer-combo guard to free Josh up more to take more shots, is also important. Josh is a huge key to Gonzaga's success and needs to have more freedom on offense to score. The Zags need him to be scoring between 13 and 17 points in a game depending on his outside shot. The same for Norvell. He needs to be our second or third leading scorer imo. 2nd or 3rd depending on Rui. IMO these are the three players who need to score more than 12 ppg. When I look back at that game I believe one reason we lost is that Norvell didn't have the ball in his hands enough, and definitely did not score enough. He ended with ten on 4 out of 7 shots made, which is better than 50% shooting. Zach is also a very good foul shooter making 81% of his shots.

Our main problem is mostly on the offensive end. The defense is not always as good at defending the 3 as it could be, and we have trouble protecting the rim, but overall the defense is pretty good. But overall, and in particular in the tougher games, the offense is not playing up to it's potential. I believe the improvement needs to be addressed by the coaches, and I believe they are doing just that based on what I saw yesterday.

Go Zags!!!

Therunner
01-21-2018, 07:08 PM
Silas Melson is an amazing Zag. He battles, he defends, he hustles, no excuses, and fearless shooter, although I wish he took more chances driving the ball (his strength in HS).

That said, why do I get the feeling we extend leads with him when he sits?

Is it due to the fact we roll out Perkins, Norvel, Rui at the 3, Tillie, J3/Larsen, and its a more formidable lineup/mismatch?

He plays solid ball overall, not the most consistent shooter, but doesn't make many mistakes, and defends at a high level.

I just get the feeling our offense is stronger when he takes a few mins off.

Not hating, just an observation/sense.

I thought we looked out best selves on offense vs Santa Clara, even SMC in his few mins outta the game. I'd say the same in OOC play too.

Again, he is a Senior, paid his dues, and love his game. Our best on-ball, iso defender by far, but our offense seems to run in higher gear when Norvell is the 2nd option INSTEAD of Silas.

scrooner
01-21-2018, 07:16 PM
Sad that Jesse isn't even in this discussion.. ...Sad but all too true.

Jesse has gotten 9 minutes total in the past 5 games. What a waste of a year of eligibility.

Vanzagger
01-21-2018, 07:26 PM
If I remember correctly Silas has picked it up in some key stretches heading into post seasons. You can’t put a price on that. Who is betting against him this year?

Norvell playing some designated Point? Duke has had Grayson Allen do the same in some big spots

MileHigh
01-21-2018, 07:52 PM
Jesse has gotten 9 minutes total in the past 5 games. What a waste of a year of eligibility.

I doubt a kid that has already sat out two years was interested in redshirting so I would not characterize this season a waste. Whatever minutes he gets this year will help him get ready for next year.

willandi
01-21-2018, 08:10 PM
I doubt a kid that has already sat out two years was interested in redshirting so I would not characterd this season a waste. Whatever minutes he gets this year will help him get ready for next year.

It is a waste for us fans that don't understand.https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15202673_1273681242694778_7499886700222139150_n.jp g?oh=fc8a00cbbceb986d2a72c9ec83783b6e&oe=5B240728

A to Zags
01-22-2018, 06:08 AM
I doubt a kid that has already sat out two years was interested in redshirting so I would not characterize this season a waste. Whatever minutes he gets this year will help him get ready for next year.

Speaking of redshirting, does anyone have any insight on how Joel Ayayi is doing? He is fun to watch as a teammate on the bench. Is he point guard material for next year?

Goshzagit
01-22-2018, 07:08 AM
Speaking of redshirting, does anyone have any insight on how Joel Ayayi is doing? He is fun to watch as a teammate on the bench. Is he point guard material for next year?

On track.

Joel Ayayi is still 17 yrs old. Not sure many realize it.

When he arrived, he was 6'4", 155 lbs, with a near 6'8" wingspan. Some say he may grow another inch, maybe two.

Elite/blue chip quickness, and speed. Not very explosive or a big leaper type, but fast twitch, and lightning quick.

Put on about 10lbs of muscle since his arrival. Awkward looking shot, but it goes in. The Coaches have been looking to clean up his mechanics to develop consistency, and ball handling was way behind most high lvl prospects his same age from US.

Tons of hustle, and has a nose for the ball. I was told he rebounds the ball like NWG did. Good instincts, but didn't really play much pick n roll game, he was used to speed up tempo, open the floor, and score/pass in transition.

Joel has dealt with some growing pains, both on and off the court. Mild tendinitis issues with lifting and working hard and actively growing.

As I posted in November, already our best defender. His length is incredible for his size/position, and gets so many tips and denies passing lanes. A very good rebounder and prides himself on this ability.

Shooting inconsistent, but work in progress as they have changed his release. Still growing, but his size/length combo is enticing to say the least (expected to be 6'5" or 6'6" by the time he's 19). Quicker than any player we've had since Goodson. Lacks explosiveness, but could be due to his limited muscle in lower body -- extremely thin. Ball handling was his biggest issue. Dribbles way to high and away from his body. Nice instincts, good passer, rebounder, average shooter (for now). Can defend anyone, and will be better fighting through screens once he develops more strength.

Hard worker, really wants to improve.

HUGE upside/ceiling. Still another year away from really developing into his 'future' self. This off season will be paramount for him.

Needs to really gain good weight, about 180lbs would be ideal, and clean up his ball handling. Become more physical in the paint and through ball screens. And all signs pointing he will.

Birddog
01-22-2018, 07:17 AM
Needs to really gain good weight, about 180lbs would be ideal,

More tacos, crepe based tacos if nec.

TexasZagFan
01-22-2018, 07:50 AM
More tacos, crepe based tacos if nec.

Too bad Paki’s isn’t around. Student Stuffers were great for putting on the pounds.

bballbeachbum
01-23-2018, 04:41 PM
end of SMC game, Zach got to the line by creating out of broken play designed for Rui on the hi lo. Zach wasn't the point guard yet still created. Ammo wasn't a point guard.
Jeremy was a point guard who penetrated and created, who Few would give the ball to and say go create late. when it didn't work he got roasted here

JohnMontana on the game thread said succinctly; we got out executed.

Don't remember Zags trying to go to Rui to win a game down the stretch like that before, against SMC no less. it didn't work this time. in reviewing the video, looked like SMC knew what we were doing maybe, and also Rui didn't get the best position, but Zach can feed him from the 2 or 3 just as easily as the point, or anyone inside.

Few used to help shake Nigel last year at times getting him off the ball, running action for him; Zach (and Silas) in that role for Josh sounds potentially sweet to get Josh looks off the ball at times during the game or with certain mismatches or situations, if that's what the OP is intending

lots of great posts on this thread, nice discussion, thanks

Zagceo
07-25-2018, 07:56 AM
On track.

Joel Ayayi is still 17 yrs old. Not sure many realize it.

When he arrived, he was 6'4", 155 lbs, with a near 6'8" wingspan. Some say he may grow another inch, maybe two.

Elite/blue chip quickness, and speed. Not very explosive or a big leaper type, but fast twitch, and lightning quick.

Put on about 10lbs of muscle since his arrival. Awkward looking shot, but it goes in. The Coaches have been looking to clean up his mechanics to develop consistency, and ball handling was way behind most high lvl prospects his same age from US.

Tons of hustle, and has a nose for the ball. I was told he rebounds the ball like NWG did. Good instincts, but didn't really play much pick n roll game, he was used to speed up tempo, open the floor, and score/pass in transition.

Joel has dealt with some growing pains, both on and off the court. Mild tendinitis issues with lifting and working hard and actively growing.

As I posted in November, already our best defender. His length is incredible for his size/position, and gets so many tips and denies passing lanes. A very good rebounder and prides himself on this ability.

Shooting inconsistent, but work in progress as they have changed his release. Still growing, but his size/length combo is enticing to say the least (expected to be 6'5" or 6'6" by the time he's 19). Quicker than any player we've had since Goodson. Lacks explosiveness, but could be due to his limited muscle in lower body -- extremely thin. Ball handling was his biggest issue. Dribbles way to high and away from his body. Nice instincts, good passer, rebounder, average shooter (for now). Can defend anyone, and will be better fighting through screens once he develops more strength.

Hard worker, really wants to improve.

HUGE upside/ceiling. Still another year away from really developing into his 'future' self. This off season will be paramount for him.

Needs to really gain good weight, about 180lbs would be ideal, and clean up his ball handling. Become more physical in the paint and through ball screens. And all signs pointing he will.

1 scouting report from January...wonder if JA has cleaned up his ball handling at all?

GonzagasaurusFlex
07-25-2018, 08:38 AM
1 scouting report from January...wonder if JA has cleaned up his ball handling at all?

IF Ayayi is the “swing and miss” recruit mentioned in the scrimmages thread and Foster redshirts, this Zags squad suddenly seems vulnerable for lack of quality ball handling and distribution depth. Norvell hasn’t shown ball distributor tendencies and Kispert lacks ball handling skills. Crandall and Perkins only two such on team unless Ayayi develops. Who knows, maybe Rui is asked to bring the ball up and initiate offense at times. He has the skills to do so.

amaronizag
07-25-2018, 09:06 AM
The point of running an offense is getting shooters open for a shot. Norvell isn't afraid to shoot when open, but he's also a good passer. Norvell demonstrates his passing skills with great passes deep into the paint. The problem is that his passes are sometimes too good and bounce off the intended receiver. He can drive hard, finish strong in the paint, OR dish it off to an open man. He's very crafty, creative, versatile, and aggressive so he makes stuff happen that gets points on the board. His aggressiveness also gets him to the foul line a lot. Barring injury, we have the depth in the back court to go. all. the. way.

TexasZagFan
07-25-2018, 09:39 AM
The point of running an offense is getting shooters open for a shot. Norvell isn't afraid to shoot when open, but he's also a good passer. Norvell demonstrates his passing skills with great passes deep into the paint. The problem is that his passes are sometimes too good and bounce off the intended receiver. He can drive hard, finish strong in the paint, OR dish it off to an open man. He's very crafty, creative, versatile, and aggressive so he makes stuff happen that gets points on the board. His aggressiveness also gets him to the foul line a lot. Barring injury, we have the depth in the back court to go. all. the. way.

+1, Zach is one of our most complete players. It’s just overshadowed by his fearlessness in shooting the rock.

Bogozags
07-25-2018, 10:12 AM
He has no conscious and like never saw a bad shot in his life...fearless is exactly how he is...good call TZF!!!

jazzdelmar
07-25-2018, 10:17 AM
With JP and Geno we have double the number of ballhandling point guards as last year. What’s the fuss?

bartruff1
07-25-2018, 10:21 AM
With JP and Geno we have double the number of ballhandling point guards as last year. What’s the fuss?

Some just have to fuss...it is what they do...

Zagceo
07-25-2018, 11:09 AM
IF Ayayi is the “swing and miss” recruit mentioned in the scrimmages thread and Foster redshirts, this Zags squad suddenly seems vulnerable for lack of quality ball handling and distribution depth. Norvell hasn’t shown ball distributor tendencies and Kispert lacks ball handling skills. Crandall and Perkins only two such on team unless Ayayi develops. Who knows, maybe Rui is asked to bring the ball up and initiate offense at times. He has the skills to do so.

I'm leaning toward it being JA

this is one board members report from KIK last year


Joel Ayayi – If he wasn’t an international player I would say he should take the year to redshirt. He needs to add a lot more weight. Young and full of emotions. Had quite a few turnovers. Joel is still learning the GU system and even though he started the scrimmage he was taken out a couple of times because he was just lost on the court. But after sitting with Coach Daniels a couple of times he understood the role he needed to play and performed much better. He moved off the ball well and Josh was able to find him for a couple of scores.

http://guboards.spokesmanreview.com/showthread.php?61098-KIK-thread&highlight=Larsen

post#14

bballbeachbum
07-25-2018, 12:07 PM
+1, Zach is one of our most complete players. It’s just overshadowed by his fearlessness in shooting the rock.

gets his hands on some of those late tough rebounds and loose balls too.
imposes his self belief all over the floor, an impact he's earned over time seems to me with the way he plays, though I only saw him last year and not through his development before, just read what was posted here about him. But just how he plays, seems he's used to making big plays, expects to make big plays, like he's done it before and proven it to himself already that he can, so of course he expects himself to do these things, it's what he does...idk, something like that.
I love watching him do whatever it is out there!!

on his position, he can contribute all the things amoronizag perfectly mentioned from the wing, not saying he can't run the offense on occasion too. But I love watching him go off as a wing, with Rui opposite wing, etc.

anyway, the more players who can handle, the better, always, right? wherever they matchup, whatever role

jazzdelmar
07-25-2018, 12:10 PM
I'm leaning toward it being JA

this is one board members report from KIK last year



http://guboards.spokesmanreview.com/showthread.php?61098-KIK-thread&highlight=Larsen

post#14

I think you nabbed it.

CDC84
07-25-2018, 04:15 PM
Still wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Geno is GU's starting point guard vs. Texas A&M. Even more than before. Either that, or Perkins and Geno flip flop at some point in the season.

TexasZagFan
07-25-2018, 05:11 PM
With JP and Geno we have double the number of ballhandling point guards as last year. What’s the fuss?

You can add we’ll have a healthy Perk, to boot. A confident and productive Dane at the 5 is the final piece for a Final Four.