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View Full Version : Gonzaga vs St Mary's post game analysis and remarks



Reborn
01-18-2018, 08:45 PM
Gonzaga 71
St Mary's 74

I wasn't going to post this thread tonight because I feel horrible inside. I'm sick to my stomach after watching the ending to that game. It was a nightmere. A horror film. However, after reading the thread saying that it was A GREAT GAME, and both teams played great, I almost threw up. He did say The Gaels played great and there's some truth to that as they shot 61% from behind the arch, and 57 for the game. One must say though that Gonzaga played bad defense down the last few minutes. No stops......No stops....NO STOPS!!!

Few needs to take a good look at himself after this game, because as far as I'm concerned his team looks really lousy right now and a lot of it is because of his coaching. I hate to say it, but St Mary's is NOT good. They would not beat Creighton, nor any other other top 25 team imo. Gonzaga played that bad tonight. I have seen this selfish, one on one basketball team before this game. and it concerned me for a couple of weeks. I thought we had gotten over it. The chemistry was very bad tonight. No one was moving at the end of the game. No one would throw it to Rui down the stretch. I'm sure Few decided to give the ball to Williams and or Perkins....two of our worst offensive players in my opinion. Williams shoots a 3 with a minute or two to go in the game. Has he made any three's this year. Yes...He made a lot last year, but he is in no way the player he was last year. He loves to put his head down and go one on three and throw up some impossible shot. If he's our go to guy, forget going to the NCAA and if we do go than forget getting out of the first round.

Why did we loose? Start with Mark Few who let Williams guard Landale one on one, even after earlier Rui Hachimura stopped Landale twice in a row. Landale made 12-15 shots, most off Williams, a couple off Tillie and none against Rui. Few can sure be stubborn, or maybe stupid at times. Did any fan actually think that Landale would NOT score if Williams guarded one on one on that last shot. Few plays Larsen 3 minutes. Few refuses to discipline Williams or Perkins, and in the end those two will be the cause of setting a record this year. I really feel sorry for Larsen. And honestly I feel sorry for Kispert. He only played 9 minutes. Yes. He's been off since returning, but on the other hand what is Few doing to build his confidence?

2. Oh we can't forget Few calling Perkins to shoot our last three point shot from behind the NBA 3 pt line. Yeah! Perkins....He was one for five from behind the arc before that attempt, and one for eight for the game. Oh yeah. I must add it didn't even hit the rim. Another question. Did any of you think he'd make that shot? hahahahaha

3. Perkins,imo was a downer all night long. Complaining to the refs. Pouting because he knew he was totall off on his shooting. He had his head down, distraught the whole second half. No leadership at all....In fact there is no leadership on this team. No Fire. No Fuego.....Yes fuego. The fire that burns in the belly. Perkins walked out of the gym at the end of first half pouting, head down with a total negative look on his face, when all the other guys were congratulating Rui for such a great first half, and for almost making that half court shot at the end of the half. And oh by the way, let's be honest. His defense was horrible. He made no real effort to defend the 3 point line....especially in the second half and down the stretch. Speaking of defense, I must add that Gonzaga has NO rim protectors at times. I mean they didn't have any tonight. When Hermestin drove to the basket to score two consecutive times off Melson, there was absolutely no one to protect the basket..NO ONE....NONE. What a lazy lackluster defense tonight, No help at all. It was all one on one all night long, and to me THAT IS NOT GONZAGA BASKETBELL.

4. Gonzaga lost the game because of it's offense. St Mary's is one of the worst defensive teams in the country, and we shot 27% from behind the arc. Something is wrong when this team has as many good 3 point shooters as it has and yet we shoot so poorly. To me the cause is the play of Williams. He gets the ball outside the box, maybe 15 feet from the basket. He holds the ball way to long letting the defense team get in position to guard him two on one or even 3 on one, because they know if he puts the ball down he's going to shoot. Or if on those rare occasions that he passes the ball back out to our shooters there is like 4 seconds left on the clock. This happened over and over down the stretch, in the last few minutes when Williams killed us at both ends of the court. And if it wasn't him jacking up bad shots it was Josh Perkinds, driving toward the basket and throwing up hopeless shots.

5. Few did not play Tillie enough. Tillie was having a good offensive night. He went 4-5, and I think all in the first half. They could not stop Tillie. Every time he touched the ball he scored (accept once). It was the same for Rui. Rui shot 11-16, and two of the misses were 3 point shots; so he was 11-13 from inside the arc. I'd say that St Mary's had no answer for Rui or Tillie. I think Rui made 16 of his 23 in the first half. Why did the Zags stop feeding him? Why didn't he touch the ball in maybe the last four or five minutes of the game. Why would a coach go to Williams on a night like this when Rui and Tillie were the two post players who were dominating.

Am I angry? Yes!!! Zags should never have lost that game. Am I upset with Mark Few? Yes. I thought he made some horrible decisions tonight. The announcers noticed that he had red cheeks after the game.....I'd be embarrassed too. How can a good basketball team lose to a team like St Mary's. AT HOME!!!!

Ezag
01-18-2018, 08:52 PM
St Mary's really isn't that good and neither are we. Landale was abusing Williams so much, I almost called 911! I said a few days ago that "Landale is heads above Tillie at this point", yep, its not even close! Unless we can contain him, I see SMC beating us at every meet.

hooter73
01-18-2018, 08:52 PM
Boom.

Nothing more needs to be said. When you’re right, you’re right. The “loyalty” to the seniors is yet again our downfall.

Goshzagit
01-18-2018, 08:55 PM
excellent post-game wrap up/post reborn.

spot on, imo.

Zagceo
01-18-2018, 08:56 PM
Lots of good points Reborn

When are “elite” shooting guard goes 12-45 in our defeats...Coach needs to recognize and react accordingly

instead of allowing him to continue jacking up NBA 3’s

Zags11
01-18-2018, 08:59 PM
I didn't see Perkins complaining all night nor did I see him pouting about rui like your trying to say. He had a bad game. Melson disappeared as did Tillie as did norvell. Only solid games on offense was rui and jw3.



Jw3 shouldn't be a 5. He should be a 4. However he battled and Tillie is soft IMO. But ppl have favorites.

The coaching was whatever. Our 3pt defense was hot garbage. Surprise surprise. Last yr was our only really good 3pt defensive team. Most years our 3pt defense is our Achilles heal and showed again tonight and again this yr.

Rui was awesome.

Zags11
01-18-2018, 09:00 PM
Lots of good points Reborn

When are “elite” shooting guard goes 12-45 in our defeats...Coach needs to recognize and react accordingly

instead of allowing him to continue jacking up NBA 3’s

Were you a NWG fan? Cuz he was garbage in our losses and a cpl of our NCAA wins. Goss shot 27% in those games and if wasn't on a stacked team, it'd be a rd 32 or sw16 exit.

gbnyba17
01-18-2018, 09:09 PM
well said reborn. we are an awful defensive team. have been all year. the kenpom defensive numbers that say were top 20 D must be purely a result of the wcc and incarnate words of the world. if you watch this team with your own eye balls theres no way you can tell me this is a good defensive team, let alone top 20.

what you said about lack of leadership is absolutely the truth. no one to grab the guys and get on them when things arent going right. no fire on this team.

last but not least i love j3 but hes not a #1 guy like few tries to make him. dumping the ball to him on the block every possession is painful to watch. its a black hole. this team is at its best when its moving the ball side to side and running high post and pick and roll at top of the key.

ok one more thing. how about changing up your defense mark few!? we all watched as the gaels picked us apart down the stretch and not a single defensive scheme change. i kept waiting for a 3/4 or full court press and we saw it once on st marys last possession. wouldnt have hurt to try and speed them up, or at least try something different when what youre doing isnt working.

go zags.

Zagceo
01-18-2018, 09:19 PM
well said reborn. we are an awful defensive team. have been all year. the kenpom defensive numbers that say were top 20 D must be purely a result of the wcc and incarnate words of the world. if you watch this team with your own eye balls theres no way you can tell me this is a good defensive team, let alone top 20.

what you said about lack of leadership is absolutely the truth. no one to grab the guys and get on them when things arent going right. no fire on this team.

last but not least i love j3 but hes not a #1 guy like few tries to make him. dumping the ball to him on tbe block every possession is painful to watch. this team is at its best when its moving the ball side to side and running high post and pick and roll at top of the key.

ok one more thing. how about changing up your defense mark few!? we all watched as the gaels picked us apart down the stretch and not a single defensive scheme change. i kept waiting for a 3/4 or full court press and we saw it once on st marys last possession. wouldnt have hurt to try and speed them up, or at least try something different when what youre doing isnt working.

go zags.

^ truth

Mantua
01-18-2018, 09:29 PM
Good post Reborn. I don’t have much to add. The game plan didn’t work. Our defense disappeared when we needed it. Shot selection was awful. The offense was stagnant. Williams and Tillie were not defensive matchups for Landale. SMC controlled the tempo for the entire game. I had a sense that the Zags were all on a leash that was far too short.

Reborn
01-18-2018, 09:32 PM
I didn't see Perkins complaining all night nor did I see him pouting about rui like your trying to say. He had a bad game. Melson disappeared as did Tillie as did norvell. Only solid games on offense was rui and jw3.



Jw3 shouldn't be a 5. He should be a 4. However he battled and Tillie is soft IMO. But ppl have favorites.

The coaching was whatever. Our 3pt defense was hot garbage. Surprise surprise. Last yr was our only really good 3pt defensive team. Most years our 3pt defense is our Achilles heal and showed again tonight and again this yr.

Rui was awesome.

Well a couple of things Zags11. If you're going to disagree with, it's great. I like it. But please try to at least get what I said right. It's only fair. I did not say Josh was pouting all night. I was referring to him pouting as he walked out of the gym at halftime, with his head down and a very negative look on his face to me. Few had taken him out of the game and sat him for some reason. I did not say he was pouting at Rui's good play. I said that when others were cheering on Rui he was feeling down and pouting. I thought he could have also been applauding Rui's success. Did you see the number of times in the second half that he was complaining to the refs? Most likely you didn't. I believe Perkins wanted to have a good game, and when he wasn't having one he really forced things, and was thinking alot. Maybe you can't see a player thinking, nor tell when he's thinking negative. I have played with and against a lot of players, and I Know how people are thinking.....And we completely disagree about Williams having a solid game. What did he go down the stretch. what did you think of that three he took with a couple minutes left in the game with us trailing by two. Did you really think he could make that? this year? And I disagree with what you said about Norvell. He doesn't get enough touches. He doesn't get the opportunities to score. He's a scorer, and if he's not getting some shots he's not going to play well. However, I saw him trying to make his mark in the second half and was being assertive and making good drives to the basket. Unfortunately he was not playing good defense, which has to be addressed. But on a night like this,who WAS playing good D? Certainly not Melson. Certainly not Williams. On a night like this and playing St Mary's I would play the guys who are scoring. Guys like Norvell and Tillie. St Mary's had no answer for Tillie nor Rui. Yet they set their game plan to stop williams which they did. All night. Few got outcoached. It's that simple. I don't blame Williams for not stopping Landale. He couldn't do it one on one. It was Few's inability to make a change during a game and disrupt his perfect game plan.....enough out of me.

Zags11
01-18-2018, 09:47 PM
Well a couple of things Zags11. If you're going to disagree with, it's great. I like it. But please try to at least get what I said right. It's only fair. I did not say Josh was pouting all night. I was referring to him pouting as he walked out of the gym at halftime, with his head down and a very negative look on his face to me. Few had taken him out of the game and sat him for some reason. I did not say he was pouting at Rui's good play. I said that when others were cheering on Rui he was feeling down and pouting. I thought he could have also been applauding Rui's success. Did you see the number of times in the second half that he was complaining to the refs? Most likely you didn't. I believe Perkins wanted to have a good game, and when he wasn't having one he really forced things, and was thinking alot. Maybe you can't see a player thinking, nor tell when he's thinking negative. I have played with and against a lot of players, and I Know how people are thinking.....And we completely disagree about Williams having a solid game. What did he go down the stretch. what did you think of that three he took with a couple minutes left in the game with us trailing by two. Did you really think he could make that? this year? And I disagree with what you said about Norvell. He doesn't get enough touches. He doesn't get the opportunities to score. He's a scorer, and if he's not getting some shots he's not going to play well. However, I saw him trying to make his mark in the second half and was being assertive and making good drives to the basket. Unfortunately he was not playing good defense, which has to be addressed. But on a night like this,who WAS playing good D? Certainly not Melson. Certainly not Williams. On a night like this and playing St Mary's I would play the guys who are scoring. Guys like Norvell and Tillie. St Mary's had no answer for Tillie nor Rui. Yet they set their game plan to stop williams which they did. All night. Few got outcoached. It's that simple. I don't blame Williams for not stopping Landale. He couldn't do it one on one. It was Few's inability to make a change during a game and disrupt his perfect game plan.....enough out of me.

Well reborn idk what's with you this year. Cut the snarky attitude. I've always been cool with you. I wasn't talking the whole game about Perkins pouting. I've played sports all my life. I read people. I know players who play soft until you talk smack to them and they play way better. I played people who were front runners and cracked when it was tight. I have played a plethora of personalities.

So that's cool you played college ball at GU. Again the best players usually make the worst coaches. (I'm not saying you) I'm speaking in general.

No, that was a poor 3 point shot by J3 but I believe j3 hit a 3 earlier in game and you said he hasn't. And he has hit some this year. So if I wanted to be snarky like you have become, I'd say "do you watch games?". Your having a 4 guard a 5 in landale. Jw3 is over matched and played very hard for what he could do.

Perkins had a rough game. 1-9 is bad. However 4 of his misses came when his team gave him the ball 5 feet outside the 3pt line reborn with 2-3 seconds on the shot clock. Surely, reborn that doesn't help the shooter and with you playing hoops you would agree.

Few had crap 3pt defense. He always has minus last yr. Norvell had a better night then I recall so I retract what I said.

Williams was getting doubled late in the game and he does struggle with that issue. Unfortunately, this team isn't stacked like last yr. I'd of loved to see NWG on this yrs team.

I thought the kennel club was bad. Half the club was mute late in the game. I was at the game. My family has season tickets so its cool when I can go.

Anyways we all are bitter when we lose.

Zagceo
01-18-2018, 10:00 PM
Well reborn idk what's with you this year. Cut the snarky attitude. I've always been cool with you. I wasn't talking the whole game about Perkins pouting. I've played sports all my life. I read people. I know players who play soft until you talk smack to them and they play way better. I played people who were front runners and cracked when it was tight. I have played a plethora of personalities.

So that's cool you played college ball at GU. Again the best players usually make the worst coaches. (I'm not saying you) I'm speaking in general.

No, that was a poor 3 point shot by J3 but I believe j3 hit a 3 earlier in game and you said he hasn't. And he has hit some this year. So if I wanted to be snarky like you have become, I'd say "do you watch games?". Your having a 4 guard a 5 in landale. Jw3 is over matched and played very hard for what he could do.

Perkins had a rough game. 1-9 is bad. However 4 of his misses came when his team gave him the ball 5 feet outside the 3pt line reborn with 2-3 seconds on the shot clock. Surely, reborn that doesn't help the shooter and with you playing hoops you would agree.

Few had crap 3pt defense. He always has minus last yr. Norvell had a better night then I recall so I retract what I said.

Williams was getting doubled late in the game and he does struggle with that issue. Unfortunately, this team isn't stacked like last yr. I'd of loved to see NWG on this yrs team.

I thought the kennel club was bad. Half the club was mute late in the game. I was at the game. My family has season tickets so its cool when I can go.

Anyways we all are bitter when we lose.

Good leaders/coaches recognize and adjust after seeing that happen once. Not using it as excuse when it happens 4 times.

Zags11
01-18-2018, 10:06 PM
Good leaders/coaches recognize and adjust after seeing that happen once. Not using it as excuse when it happens 4 times.

So on few then? Or Perkins?

GeorgiaZagFan
01-18-2018, 10:13 PM
I wish that Tillie would be more "selfish" at times and take on a scoring role when needed. He only took 5 shots, made 4 of them...I think he is a match up problem for St. Mary's and it was not exploited...almost like he was afraid of failing...he could have easily matched Rui tonight, Landale neutralizes JWIII, their guards match up well with the Zag guards..but Rui and Tillie are a problem for them...need to take advantage of that next time...

Zags11
01-18-2018, 10:16 PM
I wish that Tillie would be more "selfish" at times and take on a scoring role when needed. He only took 5 shots, made 4 of them...I think he is a match up problem for St. Mary's and it was not exploited...almost like he was afraid of failing...he could have easily matched Rui tonight, Landale neutralizes JWIII, their guards match up well with the Zag guards..but Rui and Tillie are a problem for them...need to take advantage of that next time...

Solid post.

CdAZagFan
01-18-2018, 10:17 PM
ok one more thing. how about changing up your defense mark few!? we all watched as the gaels picked us apart down the stretch and not a single defensive scheme change.

I thought SMC played very well - I was worried about the 3-ball killing us, and their shooting at that rate helped propel them to victory. I do agree with gbnyba17 on this point above - I just wish Few would have at least switched to zone a few times just to try to break the rhythm that Landale was getting into late in the 2nd half. Give him a different look for a few times and see what happens. Personally would have rather gotten beat by them draining 3's in those last few minutes, then to watch all those layins Landale had... Need to take care of business with the rest of the league and BYU right now and hopefully we can take the rematch in Moraga.

GeorgiaZagFan
01-18-2018, 10:20 PM
I replied with a post about Tillie and then read your "point #5"

5. Few did not play Tillie enough. Tillie was having a good offensive night. He went 4-5, and I think all in the first half. They could not stop Tillie. Every time he touched the ball he scored (accept once). It was the same for Rui. Rui shot 11-16, and two of the misses were 3 point shots; so he was 11-13 from inside the arc. I'd say that St Mary's had no answer for Rui or Tillie. I think Rui made 16 of his 23 in the first half. Why did the Zags stop feeding him? Why didn't he touch the ball in maybe the last four or five minutes of the game. Why would a coach go to Williams on a night like this when Rui and Tillie were the two post players who were dominating.

which I completely agree with...St. Mary's has no good options to stop Rui and Tillie..next game those 2 should be the main options for the entire game ..I really don't think the Gaels have an option to defend those 2 players ...Rui and Tillie combined to go 15 for 21...the rest of the team went 14 for 40 ....Tillie needs to shoot more than 5 times against St. Mary's ...

Ezag
01-18-2018, 10:22 PM
I replied with a post about Tillie and then read your "point #5" which I completely agree with...St. Mary's has no good options to stop Rui and Tillie..next game those 2 should be the main options for the entire game ..I really don't think the Gaels have an option to defend those 2 players ...Rui and Tillie combined to go 15 for 21...the rest of the team went 14 for 40 ....Tillie needs to shoot more than 5 times against St. Mary's ...

Yea and because SMC has no good options for Rui and Tillie, Few will still not play them over others he should in this matchup

GeorgiaZagFan
01-18-2018, 10:29 PM
In Zags losses to San Diego State and St. Marys Melson and Perkins went 4-19 and then 4-17 a combines 8 36

Murphy outgo lifer
01-18-2018, 10:42 PM
What concerns me the most is that we have only played 3 decent teams since the Creighton game on December 1st (If you count San Diego St. as a decent team) and we are 0-3 against them.

To be honest, I think this team is what I originally thought it would be at the beginning of the season. I remember thinking before the season started that with all the extremely young and inexperienced players combined with the veterans of Perkins, Melson, and JWIII, who haven't been the most consistent players themselves, would make for a very challenging year. Also, combine that with the holes this team has in not having an experienced center or back-up point guard and you have a not very deep team filled with talented but mostly inexperienced and inconsistent players.

Not sure what my expectations should be for this team but at the very least I hope they can keep the tournament streak alive.

cggonzaga
01-19-2018, 12:07 AM
Gonzaga 71
St Mary's 74

I wasn't going to post this thread tonight because I feel horrible inside. I'm sick to my stomach after watching the ending to that game. It was a nightmere. A horror film. However, after reading the thread saying that it was A GREAT GAME, and both teams played great, I almost threw up. He did say The Gaels played great and there's some truth to that as they shot 61% from behind the arch, and 57 for the game. One must say though that Gonzaga played bad defense down the last few minutes. No stops......No stops....NO STOPS!!!

Few needs to take a good look at himself after this game, because as far as I'm concerned his team looks really lousy right now and a lot of it is because of his coaching. I hate to say it, but St Mary's is NOT good. They would not beat Creighton, nor any other other top 25 team imo. Gonzaga played that bad tonight. I have seen this selfish, one on one basketball team before this game. and it concerned me for a couple of weeks. I thought we had gotten over it. The chemistry was very bad tonight. No one was moving at the end of the game. No one would throw it to Rui down the stretch. I'm sure Few decided to give the ball to Williams and or Perkins....two of our worst offensive players in my opinion. Williams shoots a 3 with a minute or two to go in the game. Has he made any three's this year. Yes...He made a lot last year, but he is in no way the player he was last year. He loves to put his head down and go one on three and throw up some impossible shot. If he's our go to guy, forget going to the NCAA and if we do go than forget getting out of the first round.

Why did we loose? Start with Mark Few who let Williams guard Landale one on one, even after earlier Rui Hachimura stopped Landale twice in a row. Landale made 12-15 shots, most off Williams, a couple off Tillie and none against Rui. Few can sure be stubborn, or maybe stupid at times. Did any fan actually think that Landale would NOT score if Williams guarded one on one on that last shot. Few plays Larsen 3 minutes. Few refuses to discipline Williams or Perkins, and in the end those two will be the cause of setting a record this year. I really feel sorry for Larsen. And honestly I feel sorry for Kispert. He only played 9 minutes. Yes. He's been off since returning, but on the other hand what is Few doing to build his confidence?

2. Oh we can't forget Few calling Perkins to shoot our last three point shot from behind the NBA 3 pt line. Yeah! Perkins....He was one for five from behind the arc before that attempt, and one for eight for the game. Oh yeah. I must add it didn't even hit the rim. Another question. Did any of you think he'd make that shot? hahahahaha

3. Perkins,imo was a downer all night long. Complaining to the refs. Pouting because he knew he was totall off on his shooting. He had his head down, distraught the whole second half. No leadership at all....In fact there is no leadership on this team. No Fire. No Fuego.....Yes fuego. The fire that burns in the belly. Perkins walked out of the gym at the end of first half pouting, head down with a total negative look on his face, when all the other guys were congratulating Rui for such a great first half, and for almost making that half court shot at the end of the half. And oh by the way, let's be honest. His defense was horrible. He made no real effort to defend the 3 point line....especially in the second half and down the stretch. Speaking of defense, I must add that Gonzaga has NO rim protectors at times. I mean they didn't have any tonight. When Hermestin drove to the basket to score two consecutive times off Melson, there was absolutely no one to protect the basket..NO ONE....NONE. What a lazy lackluster defense tonight, No help at all. It was all one on one all night long, and to me THAT IS NOT GONZAGA BASKETBELL.

4. Gonzaga lost the game because of it's offense. St Mary's is one of the worst defensive teams in the country, and we shot 27% from behind the arc. Something is wrong when this team has as many good 3 point shooters as it has and yet we shoot so poorly. To me the cause is the play of Williams. He gets the ball outside the box, maybe 15 feet from the basket. He holds the ball way to long letting the defense team get in position to guard him two on one or even 3 on one, because they know if he puts the ball down he's going to shoot. Or if on those rare occasions that he passes the ball back out to our shooters there is like 4 seconds left on the clock. This happened over and over down the stretch, in the last few minutes when Williams killed us at both ends of the court. And if it wasn't him jacking up bad shots it was Josh Perkinds, driving toward the basket and throwing up hopeless shots.

5. Few did not play Tillie enough. Tillie was having a good offensive night. He went 4-5, and I think all in the first half. They could not stop Tillie. Every time he touched the ball he scored (accept once). It was the same for Rui. Rui shot 11-16, and two of the misses were 3 point shots; so he was 11-13 from inside the arc. I'd say that St Mary's had no answer for Rui or Tillie. I think Rui made 16 of his 23 in the first half. Why did the Zags stop feeding him? Why didn't he touch the ball in maybe the last four or five minutes of the game. Why would a coach go to Williams on a night like this when Rui and Tillie were the two post players who were dominating.

Am I angry? Yes!!! Zags should never have lost that game. Am I upset with Mark Few? Yes. I thought he made some horrible decisions tonight. The announcers noticed that he had red cheeks after the game.....I'd be embarrassed too. How can a good basketball team lose to a team like St Mary's. AT HOME!!!!

Yikes Reborn. Overreact much? I’m sorry you couldn’t see that was a well played game by both teams. Two very good teams imo. Gonzaga stubbed their toe down the stretch. Perkins shot the ball poorly no question but I’ll take the 7 assists and 5 boards on a poor shooting night. I have no idea where you’re seeing him play poor defense. Don’t know if you were at the game but he was grabbing at his shoulder all night. No excuses just an observation.

Honestly, I didn’t hate the game plan against Landale for the most part. I wish Larsen could’ve spelled JWIII a little more. JWIII was physically beaten down by the end of the game. I’d rather single Landale and give up two’s rather than double and give up three’s. Hermanson made some tough shots down the stretch. Props to him. SMC is a good team.

I agree Tillie should’ve received a few more minutes. I don’t agree Kispert should have. He’s been plain bad since the injury. No offense and even worse defense. Disappointed in Melson and Norvell in 2nd half. They simply vanished.

I saw a high level college basketball game tonight for 35 minutes. The ending sucked for us but it’s all part of the learning experience. I still think this team will surprise some GU fans come March.

P.S. I thought it was a very well officiated game.

CDC84
01-19-2018, 12:14 AM
For me the difference in this game was one and only one thing: SMC's defense in the 2nd half. There was nothing all season that would tell you they could hold down Gonzaga's offense like that during various stretches in a half. The only thing I can figure is that Bennett got into their ears about the fact that they weren't going to be able to outscore Gonzaga in an offensive shootout because before this game, GU was a top 20 defensive team at kenpom.com, despite their 3pt. FG percentage defense not being ideal for defending the Gaels.

People need to remember that SMC was essentially a unanimous pick to win the league this season. Despite almost winning the national title, the Zags just lost too much. Once again, I feel that the complete lack of a leader who's an upperclassman came back to haunt the Zags in crunch time. Melson, Perks, and JWIII are just too quiet to be leaders. In many ways, this squad is missing Nigel more than any player on last year's team. He was the consummate leader, and he allowed Perkins to play at shooting guard which is where he belongs as an elite shooter. Both guys also put Melson on the bench which is where he belongs as a guard on a top 25 team.

As far as I could tell, Few's strategy going into the game was to simply outscore SMC. He saw very little on the game tape to convince him that SMC could defend GU's offense, and that Gonzaga had enough defensive firepower to not shut down the Gaels, but to hold them in check. Obviously, a different approach will be needed if GU has any hope of beating the Gaels in Moraga.

Kind of interesting to hear PJ at the mic tonight. He has totally lost his voice from screaming at officials throughout his coaching career.

WallaWallaZag
01-19-2018, 02:50 AM
For me the difference in this game was one and only one thing: SMC's defense in the 2nd half. There was nothing all season that would tell you they could hold down Gonzaga's offense like that during various stretches in a half..

smc's weakness is something gonzaga isn't very good at...dribble penetration by guards. naar isn't quick enough and ford is too small, but perkins can't finish and melson doesn't have any moves except a straight line drive. norvell is the only one who can consistently get to the rim. smc really struggles when landale has to guard a big who can shoot, so he can't sit in the paint or help...jw3 doesn't pose this problem.

GonzagasaurusFlex
01-19-2018, 02:52 AM
In Zags losses to San Diego State and St. Marys Melson and Perkins went 4-19 and then 4-17 a combines 8 36

On the whole I thought it was a great college hoops game and very fun to watch. This poor shooting stat by our starting, veteran guards + mind boggling insistence to keep trying to run the offense through JWIII in the low post were the key reasons why Zags lost imho. The former can change, but the latter is most troubling because when Zags face crucial, must score moments in a game it becomes obvious they don’t have a clear identity offensively.

I’m off the Kispert hype train. He comes in, plays poor D and jacks up 3’s that rarely go in. Time to give his minutes to Norvell or Rui.

Tillie makes some absolutely careless turnovers. Not sure I blame his low # of shots on the offense / coaches as much as I do on his shrinking violet tendencies. If he were to demand the ball and impose his will on the game, which we’ve seen him to sporadically during his Zag career, he’d get more shots and be more impactful.

p.s. Refs definitely could’ve called a moving screen on Hermanson on Gaels last play when his illegal pick-off of Perkins freed up Naar to make the perfect lob entry pass to Landale. That play doesn’t happen, Zags maybe win and tone of this entire thread becomes positive and optimistic.

mgadfly
01-19-2018, 04:17 AM
I guess I'm in the minority here. I thought the game was played well by both teams. GU (and Few) had a game plan to limit the number of three point attempts by SMC and it worked. They held them to 13 attempts. Unfortunately, they made 8 of them. If they had shot just 50% we'd have won and the strategy would have been genius.

If I was going to criticize the coach on this one, it'd be for the 6 man rotation. We outscored them in the first, second, and third ten minutes. Then gave up the lead by being outscored 20-10 in the final 10 minutes of play. Kispert and Larsen both looked out of sorts, so you can't be too upset that outside the top 6 the rest of the team played 14 minutes, but it might have been nice to have the guys a little fresher down the stretch.

I know that JW3 gave up a lot of points, but I thought he was incredibly tough despite being over matched. I thought Rui was sensational in every aspect of the game. There was even a moment where Perkins waived him through (fairly emphatically) and Rui looked at the offense and recognized there were two wings on the other side and no place for him to cut through to, and waived off Perkins' misguided directions. That's a level of maturity and recognition that he didn't have last season.

As far as Perkins goes, he was put in bad situations by teammates too many times. He had a decent game as the ball-handler/distributor. However, there were a couple of plays that really ticked me off. He was fouled, knocked to the ground, and didn't get the call. He laid there on his back holding his hands up jawing at the ref. Saint Mary's took a five on four for a two point basket in the first half. When it happened in the second half they made the wide open three from the corner. Get up, get back on defense, and jaw at the ref during the next timeout.

WallaWallaZag
01-19-2018, 04:19 AM
p.s. Refs definitely could’ve called a moving screen on Hermanson on Gaels last play when his illegal pick-off of Perkins freed up Naar to make the perfect lob entry pass to Landale. That play doesn’t happen, Zags maybe win and tone of this entire thread becomes positive and optimistic.

agree with the above...not only moving but threw his body into perkins.
speaking of perkins, he hasn't shot well since the new year started...wonder if the minutes are starting to get to him.

vandalzag
01-19-2018, 05:45 AM
agree with the above...not only moving but threw his body into perkins.
speaking of perkins, he hasn't shot well since the new year started...wonder if the minutes are starting to get to him.

Agree on the screen it was a pretty critical miss (also thought Landale got Josh on the last shot...he was off last night but 3 ft off). Minutes are taking a toll, but as 11 posted some of his shots were bail outs at the end of clock.

Saxon_zag
01-19-2018, 05:58 AM
Agree on the screen it was a pretty critical miss (also thought Landale got Josh on the last shot...he was off last night but 3 ft off). Minutes are taking a toll, but as 11 posted some of his shots were bail outs at the end of clock.

Replay didnt look like he got fouled on his 3 point airball. That was a moving screen by Hermanson the possession before though for sure.

Look at Josh's game log against teams that aren't horrible this year. We need better from him. This team has losses to St. mary's and sdsu... These are really not tournament caliber teams and it's pretty embarrassing considering what we have. Hope it gets corrected but this team deserves the critique it's receiving. If we refuse to double Landale (dumb) then shouldn't the shooters be covered? Lol

rennis
01-19-2018, 06:02 AM
The SKY IS FALLING!!!

ugh

Not a lot to add here but I will say this: If you were one of the fans who thought Karnowski was overrated, this game proves how silly that sentiment always was.

JPtheBeasta
01-19-2018, 06:25 AM
If the shots fall for the Zags it’s a different story. The players do have to execute. My biggest beef was with the passive defensive strategy.

That said, when JW3 is matched up against a bigger defender he often falters. They could have run the offense through the power forward spot and gotten whatever they wanted with Rui and Tillie. You can still run your high pick and roll action with JW3 if you want and if nothing’s there feed the other post. The end of the game was brutal to watch with the Zags dumping the ball to JW3 in with little to no action and watching the SMC defense feast on him.

TacomaZAG
01-19-2018, 06:31 AM
Sorry to drop a little reality on everyone, but both NWG and Karno are gone........................I loved them both too, but they're gone, along with Collins. If you all really want to talk about what might have been this season, let's talk about Sabonis being a Junior on last years team and a Senior this year. Like it or not, part of the evolution into an "elite" program includes guys leaving early and favorites graduating. It's all about reloading, not remembering.

But anyway, back to reality. Last night exposed some continuing issues against quality competition, like lackluster guard play, lack of leadership, lack of creativity in game planning, etc. But as the year has gone on, last night also provided another glimpse into what could be...........I'm talking about Rui as the primary 3, with the combination of JW3, Tillie, and Larsen as the 4 & 5 (PLEASE, more Larsen). If you really want to go big, Tillie is skilled enough to play the 3 for short periods of time, especially if the 2-3 zone is used on the defensive end. Combine that with any combination of Perkins, Melson, and Norvell at the 1 & 2 (Norvell can play the 3 for short spurts as well) and there is your 7 man rotation going forward. The key to the whole thing is the mismatch at the 3 with Rui/Tillie. St Mary's had no answer for Rui, and most other teams, even quality teams, won't either.

This year's squad doesn't have the talent or the depth of last years. It just doesn't.........They have to play at least B+ to beat quality teams, and IMHO, the above rotations give the team the best chance to play B+. Good teams keep improving throughout the season, we have yet to do that this year. It's not too late, but it's getting close.

Go ZAGS

Reborn
01-19-2018, 06:41 AM
If the shots fall for the Zags it’s a different story. The players do have to execute. My biggest beef was with the passive defensive strategy.

That said, when JW3 is matched up against a bigger defender he often falters. They could have run the offense through the power forward spot and gotten whatever they wanted with Rui and Tillie. You can still run your high pick and roll action with JW3 if you want and if nothing’s there feed the other post. The end of the game was brutal to watch with the Zags dumping the ball to JW3 in with little to no action and watching the SMC defense feast on him.

So true. But the problem, JP is that the shots weren't falling. Zags shot 27% from behind the 3 point line.

willandi
01-19-2018, 06:43 AM
I thought the Zags offense was clicking early in the game. Tillie was moving, getting some passes in good spots and scoring. Melson hit a few threes and had some great dribble drives, finishing at the rim. Same with Norvell jr and Perkins. JW3 started cold, but heated up.

Gonzaga seemed to go away from what was working. Was it SMC defense? I didn't think it was entirely. They shouldn't be able to cover all 5 Zags that completely.

Just a brain fart in the second half.

cggonzaga
01-19-2018, 07:21 AM
I agree fly and will. Not understanding the sentiment around here that SMC isn’t a good team. They certainly look good to me. I think something has to be said of the fact too that they desperately needed a quality win for an at large birth into the tournament. They wanted it a little more down the stretch. I do get concerned with our team in tight games. We move away from what has worked all game. I put that on the coaches a little bit as it seems they try to go to our “leaders” when we should just continue with what brought us to that point.

Reborn
01-19-2018, 07:30 AM
I agree fly and will. Not understanding the sentiment around here that SMC isn’t a good team. They certainly look good to me. I think something has to be said of the fact too that they desperately needed a quality win for an at large birth into the tournament. They wanted it a little more down the stretch. I do get concerned with our team in tight games. We move away from what has worked all game. I put that on the coaches a little bit as it seems they try to go to our “leaders” when we should just continue with what brought us to that point.

I agree with your analysis that the team went away from what was working during the game, Rui Hachimura. Rui scored 23 points. By far the best game of any Zag. The interesting fact is that in the last ten minutes Rui gets one shot, and makes it at the two minute mark to tie the game at 73. No more touches. No more shots in last two minutes.

MDABE80
01-19-2018, 08:05 AM
Were you a NWG fan? Cuz he was garbage in our losses and a cpl of our NCAA wins. Goss shot 27% in those games and if wasn't on a stacked team, it'd be a rd 32 or sw16 exit.

NO he didn't shoot well. He ran the team, did spacing, set others up. Made us win. Tough minded kid..he's the one guy I wish we had back. Karno is another.

MDABE80
01-19-2018, 08:09 AM
Gonzaga 71
St Mary's 74

I wasn't going to post this thread tonight because I feel horrible inside. I'm sick to my stomach after watching the ending to that game. It was a nightmere. A horror film. However, after reading the thread saying that it was A GREAT GAME, and both teams played great, I almost threw up. He did say The Gaels played great and there's some truth to that as they shot 61% from behind the arch, and 57 for the game. One must say though that Gonzaga played bad defense down the last few minutes. No stops......No stops....NO STOPS!!!

Few needs to take a good look at himself after this game, because as far as I'm concerned his team looks really lousy right now and a lot of it is because of his coaching. I hate to say it, but St Mary's is NOT good. They would not beat Creighton, nor any other other top 25 team imo. Gonzaga played that bad tonight. I have seen this selfish, one on one basketball team before this game. and it concerned me for a couple of weeks. I thought we had gotten over it. The chemistry was very bad tonight. No one was moving at the end of the game. No one would throw it to Rui down the stretch. I'm sure Few decided to give the ball to Williams and or Perkins....two of our worst offensive players in my opinion. Williams shoots a 3 with a minute or two to go in the game. Has he made any three's this year. Yes...He made a lot last year, but he is in no way the player he was last year. He loves to put his head down and go one on three and throw up some impossible shot. If he's our go to guy, forget going to the NCAA and if we do go than forget getting out of the first round.

Why did we loose? Start with Mark Few who let Williams guard Landale one on one, even after earlier Rui Hachimura stopped Landale twice in a row. Landale made 12-15 shots, most off Williams, a couple off Tillie and none against Rui. Few can sure be stubborn, or maybe stupid at times. Did any fan actually think that Landale would NOT score if Williams guarded one on one on that last shot. Few plays Larsen 3 minutes. Few refuses to discipline Williams or Perkins, and in the end those two will be the cause of setting a record this year. I really feel sorry for Larsen. And honestly I feel sorry for Kispert. He only played 9 minutes. Yes. He's been off since returning, but on the other hand what is Few doing to build his confidence?

2. Oh we can't forget Few calling Perkins to shoot our last three point shot from behind the NBA 3 pt line. Yeah! Perkins....He was one for five from behind the arc before that attempt, and one for eight for the game. Oh yeah. I must add it didn't even hit the rim. Another question. Did any of you think he'd make that shot? hahahahaha

3. Perkins,imo was a downer all night long. Complaining to the refs. Pouting because he knew he was totall off on his shooting. He had his head down, distraught the whole second half. No leadership at all....In fact there is no leadership on this team. No Fire. No Fuego.....Yes fuego. The fire that burns in the belly. Perkins walked out of the gym at the end of first half pouting, head down with a total negative look on his face, when all the other guys were congratulating Rui for such a great first half, and for almost making that half court shot at the end of the half. And oh by the way, let's be honest. His defense was horrible. He made no real effort to defend the 3 point line....especially in the second half and down the stretch. Speaking of defense, I must add that Gonzaga has NO rim protectors at times. I mean they didn't have any tonight. When Hermestin drove to the basket to score two consecutive times off Melson, there was absolutely no one to protect the basket..NO ONE....NONE. What a lazy lackluster defense tonight, No help at all. It was all one on one all night long, and to me THAT IS NOT GONZAGA BASKETBELL.

4. Gonzaga lost the game because of it's offense. St Mary's is one of the worst defensive teams in the country, and we shot 27% from behind the arc. Something is wrong when this team has as many good 3 point shooters as it has and yet we shoot so poorly. To me the cause is the play of Williams. He gets the ball outside the box, maybe 15 feet from the basket. He holds the ball way to long letting the defense team get in position to guard him two on one or even 3 on one, because they know if he puts the ball down he's going to shoot. Or if on those rare occasions that he passes the ball back out to our shooters there is like 4 seconds left on the clock. This happened over and over down the stretch, in the last few minutes when Williams killed us at both ends of the court. And if it wasn't him jacking up bad shots it was Josh Perkinds, driving toward the basket and throwing up hopeless shots.

5. Few did not play Tillie enough. Tillie was having a good offensive night. He went 4-5, and I think all in the first half. They could not stop Tillie. Every time he touched the ball he scored (accept once). It was the same for Rui. Rui shot 11-16, and two of the misses were 3 point shots; so he was 11-13 from inside the arc. I'd say that St Mary's had no answer for Rui or Tillie. I think Rui made 16 of his 23 in the first half. Why did the Zags stop feeding him? Why didn't he touch the ball in maybe the last four or five minutes of the game. Why would a coach go to Williams on a night like this when Rui and Tillie were the two post players who were dominating.

Am I angry? Yes!!! Zags should never have lost that game. Am I upset with Mark Few? Yes. I thought he made some horrible decisions tonight. The announcers noticed that he had red cheeks after the game.....I'd be embarrassed too. How can a good basketball team lose to a team like St Mary's. AT HOME!!!!
I'd like to know how reborn HAS this much energy to write this truth of truths!!!????

MontanaCoyote
01-19-2018, 08:11 AM
The SKY IS FALLING!!!

ugh

Not a lot to add here but I will say this: If you were one of the fans who thought Karnowski was overrated, this game proves how silly that sentiment always was.

Exactly right! Although Shem is said to be one of the most popular Zag's of all time, a lot of posters were down on him because God didn't give him the body of a NBA prototype center. I posted last year that the Zag's were going to miss Shem
a lot more than many thought. I've posted this year that not having a Shem in the paint could prove to be a fatal flaw.

All those little guys getting to the rim last night? You never miss your water till your well runs dry.

Zags11
01-19-2018, 08:24 AM
NO he didn't shoot well. He ran the team, did spacing, set others up. Made us win. Tough minded kid..he's the one guy I wish we had back. Karno is another.

I think opinions would differ on NWG if we lost in 2nd rd or sw16 due to his poor shooting and assists to turnovers in those games. His legacy here would be different if he wasn't on a stacked team. Luckily NWG was on the best team in zags history. Was he a reason why? Hell yes. However, if he was on a normal zags team with his shooting and a/to in those games we won it'd been a loss normally. It would of been round of 32 or sw16 exit.

I mean second rd he shot 6-19 with 4 assists and 3 turnovers. (Normal zags team our star guard does that its a fat L.)

Sweet 16 NWG shot 2-10 with 3 assists and 5 turnovers. Zags win. So in the two games we normally would lose but won NWG shot 8-29 for 27.5% with 7 assists and 8 turnovers. So as the PG he played bad.

So again ppl want to remember what they want. Put NWG on this squad and let him have same games and its 2nd round exit and people would remember NWG totally different.

This team isn't close to last years talent and honestly it shouldn't be. You had a 6th man in Collins and NWG and Perkins and Mathews and the main cog IMO in karno. Karno shut down landale.

Reborn
01-19-2018, 08:24 AM
I'd like to know how reborn HAS this much energy to write this truth of truths!!!????

I love the !!!??? Doc. You outdid me for sure. hahaha

Zags11
01-19-2018, 08:26 AM
Exactly right! Although Shem is said to be one of the most popular Zag's of all time, a lot of posters were down on him because God didn't give him the body of a NBA prototype center. I posted last year that the Zag's were going to miss Shem
a lot more than many thought. I've posted this year that not having a Shem in the paint could prove to be a fatal flaw.

All those little guys getting to the rim last night? You never miss your water till your well runs dry.

Facts. Shem was main reason our defense was so good! Drive their guards into a mountain of a man. He constantly shut down other Bigs. It is how he looked is why ppl were meh on him. I'll tell you this. Last night is a win if we had karno back.

Reborn
01-19-2018, 08:26 AM
I think opinions would differ on NWG if we lost in 2nd rd or sw16 due to his poor shooting and assists to turnovers in those games. His legacy here would be different if he wasn't on a stacked team. Luckily NWG was on the best team in zags history. Was he a reason why? Hell yes. However, if he was on a normal zags team with his shooting and a/to in those games we won it'd been a loss normally. It would of been round of 32 or sw16 exit.

I mean second rd he shot 6-19 with 4 assists and 3 turnovers. (Normal zags team our star guard does that its a fat L.)

Sweet 16 NWG shot 2-10 with 3 assists and 5 turnovers. Zags win. So in the two games we normally would lose but won NWG shot 8-29 for 27.5% with 7 assists and 8 turnovers.

So again ppl want to remember what they want. Put NWG on this squad and let him have same games and its 2nd round exit and people would remember totally different.

This team isn't close to last years talent and honestly it shouldn't be. You had a 6th man in Collins and NWG and Perkins and Mathews and the main cog IMO in karno. Karno shut down landale.

Very good post. thanks for this analysis.

Zags11
01-19-2018, 08:29 AM
Very good post. thanks for this analysis.

Yea I was bummed too reborn last night. I was at the game. And every big game lately I have been in person they lose. I think I'm a curse.

Also reborn I like your passion. Always have.

MDABE80
01-19-2018, 08:30 AM
I think opinions would differ on NWG if we lost in 2nd rd or sw16 due to his poor shooting and assists to turnovers in those games. His legacy here would be different if he wasn't on a stacked team. Luckily NWG was on the best team in zags history. Was he a reason why? Hell yes. However, if he was on a normal zags team with his shooting and a/to in those games we won it'd been a loss normally. It would of been round of 32 or sw16 exit.

I mean second rd he shot 6-19 with 4 assists and 3 turnovers. (Normal zags team our star guard does that its a fat L.)

Sweet 16 NWG shot 2-10 with 3 assists and 5 turnovers. Zags win. So in the two games we normally would lose but won NWG shot 8-29 for 27.5% with 7 assists and 8 turnovers. So as the PG he played bad.

So again ppl want to remember what they want. Put NWG on this squad and let him have same games and its 2nd round exit and people would remember NWG totally different.

This team isn't close to last years talent and honestly it shouldn't be. You had a 6th man in Collins and NWG and Perkins and Mathews and the main cog IMO in karno. Karno shut down landale.
Congrats on your enthusiasm 11.!! I noted he didn't shoot well Nigel. That wasn't his value in the tournament. He ran the team and made everyone better so the guys could win. That's what's missing this year in my MOST humble opinion.

Zags11
01-19-2018, 08:38 AM
Congrats on your enthusiasm 11.!! I noted he didn't shoot well Nigel. That wasn't his value in the tournament. He ran the team and made everyone better so the guys could win. That's what's missing this year in my MOST humble opinion.

The value in a PG is the same value as a QB in football. You don't always need to shoot well to play well. I fully agree. However 7 assists and 8 turnovers is poor. If it was josh Perkins in the tournament people on here would be breathing fire.

All my point was people remember Nigel differently since he was the pg to help lead the zags to their first championship. The thing people forget is that is you need a great team to surround you. I don't believe with NWG on this squad that he could get away with two piss poor performances in march like he had.

However his legacy is set. He had two very bad games in march that when it was a dickau or stepp the zags were eliminated. His team? They won. He also had a bad title game and they lost.

If Perkins or when Perkins shoots bad and zags are eliminated? He will get all the blame. Unfair? Yes. It is what it is? Yes. You can't carry a team by yourself. Even MJ couldn't.

Would NWG make this team better? Yes. Melson would go back to 6th man. You would have NWG at pg and josh at SG. Unfortunately, goss left us with a year left of eligibility.

Reborn
01-19-2018, 08:39 AM
Yea I was bummed too reborn last night. I was at the game. And every big game lately I have been in person they lose. I think I'm a curse.

Also reborn I like your passion. Always have.

Yeah! I was definitely bummed and probably shouldn't have posted last night. Most of the time I won't post after a loss because I tend to be "bummed." Sorry I came across as snarly.

Zags11
01-19-2018, 08:48 AM
Yeah! I was definitely bummed and probably shouldn't have posted last night. Most of the time I won't post after a loss because I tend to be "bummed." Sorry I came across as snarly.

Meh its all good. I'm a big jerk when my teams lose. I'm too competitive. I figure your the same. Argue and get the heck over it!
:)

CDC84
01-19-2018, 08:50 AM
smc's weakness is something gonzaga isn't very good at...dribble penetration by guards. naar isn't quick enough and ford is too small, but perkins can't finish and melson doesn't have any moves except a straight line drive. norvell is the only one who can consistently get to the rim. smc really struggles when landale has to guard a big who can shoot, so he can't sit in the paint or help...jw3 doesn't pose this problem.

Good points Walla

former1dog
01-19-2018, 09:01 AM
IMHO it comes down to Mark Few and staff. They aren't putting the right pieces into the right places for the team to succeed versus top competition.

JWIII is great as the first option on offense against an inferior defensive strategy because he can score. But against defensive strategies that bring the double team, especially those that are smart enough to bring the double team after JWIII has decided he's going to try and score we are toast. Williams is not Karnowski and he's not Sabonis. He's a really, really good complimentary power forward who you can post up one on one every 7th or 8th time up the floor. He doesn't have the court vision or the passing ability to be the primary offensive option. Few is trying to fit a square peg into a round hole and its never going to fit.

I'm also very, very puzzled by the absence of playing Larsen. I can't figure out why he has lost the confidence of Few? Maybe he's a bad practice player? Larsen is not the scorer that Karnowski was or JWIII. But, he is superior passer and decision maker versus JWIII. Considering the fact that Tillie is playing so inconsistently, it makes a lot of sense to me to start Larsen at the center position and JWIII at the forward position. That combination, IMO, would have not gotten bogged down in terms of scoring in the second half last night.

In addition, I think Larsen could have potentially been a better option to defend Landale, although he did get beat on a pick and roll in his limited minutes in the game.

Obviously we would have loved for Perkins and all of our guards to shoot better. With that said, Perkins did not have a horrible game like he did versus SDSU. He had 7 assists to 1 turnover and was finding the open man consistently and skillfully. I disagree that he played poorly defensively. I do think Norvell played poor defense on Hermanson, though, but I'm inclined to give him a pass because its not like Hermanson is an easy guard. Melson was having lots of trouble with him also.

Which brings me to the other thing that I think Few could have done differently. We went man to man (my recollection) exclusively in the second half. SMC was killing us down the stretch because we couldn't stop Hermanson and we couldn't stop Landale. I think the zone that we have used effectively this season would have been great to pull out of the tool box to prevent all of those one on one looks from Landale especially.

sideshow06
01-19-2018, 09:08 AM
Maybe its none of my business being from the other fan base, but from the outside looking in I really don't get all the negativity. I read Reborn's original post right before I re-watched the game last night, so the comments and criticisms were on my mind as I watched. While I feel like some criticism is reasonable for the last 10-15 minutes of the game (from the point where GU led by 9), it just doesn't hold up in the first 25-30 minutes. In the first half both teams looked great, and not just on offense. Both came to play and played well. Both had a ton of great team offense - and not just one-on-one iso plays. While the shooting was a tad ridiculous on both sides and cooled off later, both got good looks and shared the ball when necessary. Hachimura was a beast. And yet, it wasn't without defense either. Both teams had key stops, blocks and steals. Neither team looked out of sorts, much the opposite. And the crowd was electric. It was tense and fun to watch.

Not saying the criticisms of Few's personnel and game-plan decisions throughout the game are unwarranted. You guys know your players best. But in spite of his decisions, GU did not play poorly in the first half. If you only watched the last 15 minutes I could see where you're coming from - GU did look out of sorts (and out of character), but on the whole I just don't get it. There's still a very good chance you wind up 2-1 against us this year, and I've no doubt you'll be dancing in March.

TexasZagFan
01-19-2018, 09:22 AM
Maybe its none of my business being from the other fan base, but from the outside looking in I really don't get all the negativity. I read Reborn's original post right before I re-watched the game last night, so the comments and criticisms were on my mind as I watched. While I feel like some criticism is reasonable for the last 10-15 minutes of the game (from the point where GU led by 9), it just doesn't hold up in the first 25-30 minutes. In the first half both teams looked great, and not just on offense. Both came to play and played well. Both had a ton of great team offense - and not just one-on-one iso plays. While the shooting was a tad ridiculous on both sides and cooled off later, both got good looks and shared the ball when necessary. Hachimura was a beast. And yet, it wasn't without defense either. Both teams had key stops, blocks and steals. Neither team looked out of sorts, much the opposite. And the crowd was electric. It was tense and fun to watch.

Not saying the criticisms of Few's personnel and game-plan decisions throughout the game are unwarranted. You guys know your players best. But in spite of his decisions, GU did not play poorly in the first half. If you only watched the last 15 minutes I could see where you're coming from - GU did look out of sorts (and out of character), but on the whole I just don't get it. There's still a very good chance you wind up 2-1 against us this year, and I've no doubt you'll be dancing in March.

You're right, it's none of your business.

:lmao:

:jk:

hooter73
01-19-2018, 09:24 AM
I think it comes from the hold over of how good we were in the first five or so games of the season to now how we look like we dont know what to do or how to do it.

GrizZAG
01-19-2018, 09:28 AM
Maybe its none of my business being from the other fan base, but from the outside looking in I really don't get all the negativity. I read Reborn's original post right before I re-watched the game last night, so the comments and criticisms were on my mind as I watched. While I feel like some criticism is reasonable for the last 10-15 minutes of the game (from the point where GU led by 9), it just doesn't hold up in the first 25-30 minutes. In the first half both teams looked great, and not just on offense. Both came to play and played well. Both had a ton of great team offense - and not just one-on-one iso plays. While the shooting was a tad ridiculous on both sides and cooled off later, both got good looks and shared the ball when necessary. Hachimura was a beast. And yet, it wasn't without defense either. Both teams had key stops, blocks and steals. Neither team looked out of sorts, much the opposite. And the crowd was electric. It was tense and fun to watch.

Not saying the criticisms of Few's personnel and game-plan decisions throughout the game are unwarranted. You guys know your players best. But in spite of his decisions, GU did not play poorly in the first half. If you only watched the last 15 minutes I could see where you're coming from - GU did look out of sorts (and out of character), but on the whole I just don't get it. There's still a very good chance you wind up 2-1 against us this year, and I've no doubt you'll be dancing in March.

Agree with this analysis

Zagger
01-19-2018, 11:04 AM
Live by 3 die by 3. Could be the opposite in Moraga.

Good thing GU has Rui :)

cggonzaga
01-19-2018, 11:49 AM
Zags11, spot on analysis in this thread. Way to bring it while also backing up your position.

Abe, I don’t understand the comments about NWG willing us to victory with those stat lines. That’s certainly not running a team well. However, I am coming around to the lack of leadership argument. NWG was exceptional in this category. Not only as a Zag but possibly in the history of college basketball. We need that vocal, calming, eye of the tiger influence in crunch time.

Hoopaholic
01-19-2018, 01:19 PM
Key plays of second half IMO

15:09 mark Perkins penetrates key kick out wide open melson. Misses shot could have pushed lead to 12

14:09 Perkins drives lane misses tille get o rebound but throws away then in transition fouls 3 point shooter instead of 52-46 or possibly 54-46. It becomes 52-48 with mo change


11:37. Norvell quick out of flow 3 point shot missed with us up 57-52. Hermanson makes shot score now 57-54

10:41. Up 61-54. Rui misses easy bunny. SMC scores. 61-56

8:12 mark transition 3 ball for SMC when rui in transition goes to paint instead of his player who fanned out for open 3 ball. SMC takes lead 63-61

Next possession rui on block dribbles out to wing then dribbles top key short pass to Perkins with 3 on shot clock missed three ball

4:00 ford drives right rui sticks to his big man who is 2 feet beyond three line instead of rotating down lane for weakside responsibility miss shot landale weakside put back

Next possession rui drives and is triple teamed forcing wild shot

3:13. Melson drive basket hammered across arm and head no call

Down 70-68. J3 misses bunny

10 sets that made a difference imo

ZAG 4 LIFE
01-19-2018, 01:40 PM
Zags11, spot on analysis in this thread. Way to bring it while also backing up your position.

Abe, I don’t understand the comments about NWG willing us to victory with those stat lines. That’s certainly not running a team well. However, I am coming around to the lack of leadership argument. NWG was exceptional in this category. Not only as a Zag but possibly in the history of college basketball. We need that vocal, calming, eye of the tiger influence in crunch time.

The Zags the last couple of years also had a marvelous leader in Mt. Karno.
This group just doesn't have a natural leader... perhaps ZN and CK will emerge
to assume those roles, but not this year.

Ezag
01-19-2018, 02:06 PM
Live by 3 die by 3. Could be the opposite in Moraga.

Good thing GU has Rui :)

Yea but who's got Landale covered?

MontanaCoyote
01-19-2018, 02:16 PM
Facts. Shem was main reason our defense was so good! Drive their guards into a mountain of a man. He constantly shut down other Bigs. It is how he looked is why ppl were meh on him. I'll tell you this. Last night is a win if we had karno back.

Without a shadow of doubt. The ghost of Shem casts a big shadow, y'all!

MDABE80
01-19-2018, 02:28 PM
Zags11, spot on analysis in this thread. Way to bring it while also backing up your position.

Abe, I don’t understand the comments about NWG willing us to victory with those stat lines. That’s certainly not running a team well. However, I am coming around to the lack of leadership argument. NWG was exceptional in this category. Not only as a Zag but possibly in the history of college basketball. We need that vocal, calming, eye of the tiger influence in crunch time.

I'm not seeing "willing". He performed
Well in all indexes outside of accuracy. A well run attack and a well run defense.
It's why Nigel engineered
Those late season victories.
For me, even though he led the team in scoring for the year, his bigger value came in the playoffs , assists and generalship.

Zags11
01-19-2018, 03:08 PM
I'm not seeing "willing". He performed
Well in all indexes outside of accuracy. A well run attack and a well run defense.
It's why Nigel engineered
Those late season victories.
For me, even though he led the team in scoring for the year, his bigger value came in the playoffs , assists and generalship.

So the PG with more turnovers then assists in the games I'm talking about is a well run attack? In the playoffs? Respectfully Abe, the zags are a round of 32 or sw 16 team at best with just Nigel or this yrs team with Nigel.

Nigel was 3.5 APG with 4 turnovers per gm on 27.5% shooting. That's isn't a well led attack at all. It is a flat out early exit again except nwg had the team to save him. If it was a Perkins led attack people on this board would be seething on josh.

IDC to argue the josh and NWG comparison. Both are Europe players. One had the way better team and talent that saved the PG when the PG had terrible shooting and pg play.

The other one when struggles will also have the team exit since this pg doesn't have the same talent.

Those are the facts. Rest is opinions.

Zagceo
01-19-2018, 03:17 PM
Why did Perkins sit for the last 5 minutes of the first half?

Birddog
01-19-2018, 03:53 PM
15:09 mark Perkins penetrates key kick out wide open melson. Misses shot could have pushed lead to 12

14:09 Perkins drives lane misses tille get o rebound but throws away then in transition fouls 3 point shooter instead of 52-46 or possibly 54-46. It becomes 52-48 with mo change
Hoop, I don't record the games, but those 2 are etched into my memory, I was shaking my head. Up to that point I thought Tillie had been playing well but after his miscues he disappeared.

zagcheer78
01-19-2018, 03:58 PM
On a more positive note, we are protecting the ball, thus our turnover numbers have improved.:D

maynard g krebs
01-19-2018, 04:30 PM
I think opinions would differ on NWG if we lost in 2nd rd or sw16 due to his poor shooting and assists to turnovers in those games. His legacy here would be different if he wasn't on a stacked team. Luckily NWG was on the best team in zags history. Was he a reason why? Hell yes. However, if he was on a normal zags team with his shooting and a/to in those games we won it'd been a loss normally. It would of been round of 32 or sw16 exit.

I mean second rd he shot 6-19 with 4 assists and 3 turnovers. (Normal zags team our star guard does that its a fat L.)

Sweet 16 NWG shot 2-10 with 3 assists and 5 turnovers. Zags win. So in the two games we normally would lose but won NWG shot 8-29 for 27.5% with 7 assists and 8 turnovers. So as the PG he played bad.

So again ppl want to remember what they want. Put NWG on this squad and let him have same games and its 2nd round exit and people would remember NWG totally different.

This team isn't close to last years talent and honestly it shouldn't be. You had a 6th man in Collins and NWG and Perkins and Mathews and the main cog IMO in karno. Karno shut down landale.

Bingo.

Reborn
01-19-2018, 04:33 PM
Maybe its none of my business being from the other fan base, but from the outside looking in I really don't get all the negativity. I read Reborn's original post right before I re-watched the game last night, so the comments and criticisms were on my mind as I watched. While I feel like some criticism is reasonable for the last 10-15 minutes of the game (from the point where GU led by 9), it just doesn't hold up in the first 25-30 minutes. In the first half both teams looked great, and not just on offense. Both came to play and played well. Both had a ton of great team offense - and not just one-on-one iso plays. While the shooting was a tad ridiculous on both sides and cooled off later, both got good looks and shared the ball when necessary. Hachimura was a beast. And yet, it wasn't without defense either. Both teams had key stops, blocks and steals. Neither team looked out of sorts, much the opposite. And the crowd was electric. It was tense and fun to watch.

Not saying the criticisms of Few's personnel and game-plan decisions throughout the game are unwarranted. You guys know your players best. But in spite of his decisions, GU did not play poorly in the first half. If you only watched the last 15 minutes I could see where you're coming from - GU did look out of sorts (and out of character), but on the whole I just don't get it. There's still a very good chance you wind up 2-1 against us this year, and I've no doubt you'll be dancing in March.

Thanks for your opinion. And it's true. Zags did play great for 30 minutes, and they were getting the ball to Hachimura. They couldn't stop him, Rui was doing more damage to St Mary's than Landale did to GU. At the ten minute mark left in the game Rui had 21 points and Landale had 15. The Zags were ahead by seven. Last ten minutes Landale gets 11 points and takes every shot for St Mary's and goes 5 for 5 against Williams. Rui doesn't touch the ball. It was JW3 who was our go to guy down the stretch and he missed every shot, and the ones he didn't shoot he passed out to a shooter with 4 seconds left on the shot clock. To me, when a team who's supposed to be as good as Gonzaga is supposed to be, can not hold a seven point lead down the stretch AT HOME. it's a pretty bad loss. When the player of the game for Gonzaga doesn't get a shot in the last 3 minutes, imo something is wrong. When the go to guy or guys (Williams 3 and Josh) down the stretch are having off nights and you decide to go to them down the stretch, than to me something is wrong with the coaching decisions.

I'm sure to you it looked good because you won. But honestly, I have never heard anyone say that the beauty of a game is in the first three quarters. I think that most people would say that the most important part of a game is the last ten minutes, and even more importantly the last 4 minutes. I only wish the buzzer ending the game would have gone off with ten minutes to play. Gonzaga coaches call the last two minutes of a game "closing the deal." Zags didn't do that last night and last night was not the first time they didn't. The merit of a team will ultimately be decided how they play in the last two minutes of a game.

75Zag
01-19-2018, 04:51 PM
As a long-time fan who claims absolutely zero "basketball expertise", it seems to me that the 2017-2018 version of the Bulldogs lacks that special guy - the calm dead-eye shooter who can carry GU across the finish line on his back if necessary. For the first 35 minutes last night I thought it might be Rui Hachimura and he had a wonderful game but unfortunately he didn't give us that jump-from-your-seat-and-cheer shot at the end. Maybe the next Adam Morrison or Williams-Goss or John Stockton or Kevin Pangos or Dan Dickau or even Derek Raivio is hidden somewhere on the 2017-2018 Bulldog squad and has not yet revealed his talent. But at this point I am having a hard time figuring out who he will be, and without that player I am afraid we may see more losses against good NCAA teams once we are finished with the WCC season.

Go Bulldogs!

Nevada Don
01-19-2018, 04:56 PM
Reborn, and to think that the Zags played so poorly the last ten minutes, according to you, against a team that according to you, is not even a good team.

I guess I'm just still bothered by your statement that Saint Mary's isn't a good team. You are entitled to your opinion. Sorry if I misunderstood something in what you said.

Nevada Don
01-19-2018, 05:10 PM
News article with a quote from Jock Landale after last nights game:


That’s exactly what they did. They consistently pounded the ball inside to the 6-foot-11 Landale, who had his 13th double-double (26 points and 12 rebounds), despite going against Jonathan Williams, the player Landale deemed the “toughest defender” he’s faced.

cggonzaga
01-19-2018, 05:29 PM
News article with a quote from Jock Landale after last nights game:


That’s exactly what they did. They consistently pounded the ball inside to the 6-foot-11 Landale, who had his 13th double-double (26 points and 12 rebounds), despite going against Jonathan Williams, the player Landale deemed the “toughest defender” he’s faced.

Landale is a stud! JWIII has got to be black and blue today.

Murphy outgo lifer
01-19-2018, 05:59 PM
So the PG with more turnovers then assists in the games I'm talking about is a well run attack? In the playoffs? Respectfully Abe, the zags are a round of 32 or sw 16 team at best with just Nigel or this yrs team with Nigel.

Nigel was 3.5 APG with 4 turnovers per gm on 27.5% shooting. That's isn't a well led attack at all. It is a flat out early exit again except nwg had the team to save him. If it was a Perkins led attack people on this board would be seething on josh.

IDC to argue the josh and NWG comparison. Both are Europe players. One had the way better team and talent that saved the PG when the PG had terrible shooting and pg play.

The other one when struggles will also have the team exit since this pg doesn't have the same talent.

Those are the facts. Rest is opinions.

This is a very interesting topic regarding NWG and is even relevant due to the criticisms levied against Perkins this year.

My opinion on the matter is that there is no limit to the benefits of truly great leadership both on the court, off the court, in the film room, and in the weight room. Mark Few has stated that NWG was one of the best leaders he has ever had and NWG was so committed to running the gameplay that he dictated the flow both offensively and defensively and forced our will on the other team by coordinating and leading our team. He had so many intangibles that he is the very definition of the saying "the stats don't begin to show how much he impacts a game."

You are very correct in your stats and his struggles at times in March as well as the fact that this team is no where near as experienced or deep or skilled as this year. However, as other points have mentioned this last loss to St. Mary's and needing someone to take a big shot and how certain events lead to momentum changes, NWG was one of the best big moment shot takers we have ever had and he consistently took these shot and made these shots for us. So many times his stat sheet might look sub-par but those assists and those buckets many times were made when we needed them most to stop a run by the other team or go-ahead late.

My opinion is that NWG would make this current team better by getting more out of this team than the current hesitant leaders are getting. He would dictate tempo on offense and coordinate on defense and demand the very best from everyone on this team and he would make something happen in the biggest moments of the biggest games. He was the quintesintial "Alpha Dog" with intangibles that can't even begin to be quantified.

This current team is desperately missing many of the qualities he brought last year.

Murphy outgo lifer
01-19-2018, 06:02 PM
Maybe its none of my business being from the other fan base, but from the outside looking in I really don't get all the negativity. I read Reborn's original post right before I re-watched the game last night, so the comments and criticisms were on my mind as I watched. While I feel like some criticism is reasonable for the last 10-15 minutes of the game (from the point where GU led by 9), it just doesn't hold up in the first 25-30 minutes. In the first half both teams looked great, and not just on offense. Both came to play and played well. Both had a ton of great team offense - and not just one-on-one iso plays. While the shooting was a tad ridiculous on both sides and cooled off later, both got good looks and shared the ball when necessary. Hachimura was a beast. And yet, it wasn't without defense either. Both teams had key stops, blocks and steals. Neither team looked out of sorts, much the opposite. And the crowd was electric. It was tense and fun to watch.

Not saying the criticisms of Few's personnel and game-plan decisions throughout the game are unwarranted. You guys know your players best. But in spite of his decisions, GU did not play poorly in the first half. If you only watched the last 15 minutes I could see where you're coming from - GU did look out of sorts (and out of character), but on the whole I just don't get it. There's still a very good chance you wind up 2-1 against us this year, and I've no doubt you'll be dancing in March.

Thank you very much for your post. I agree with much of what you posted but unfortunately the last 10 minutes of the game is championship basketball time and separates good teams from great teams.

Reborn
01-19-2018, 06:15 PM
Reborn, and to think that the Zags played so poorly the last ten minutes, according to you, against a team that according to you, is not even a good team.

I guess I'm just still bothered by your statement that Saint Mary's isn't a good team. You are entitled to your opinion. Sorry if I misunderstood something in what you said.

Yeah. I understand. I was quite upset last night, and honestly I don't now or never will like St Mary's. I guess I'm old fashioned in that opinion that a rivalry is a rivalry. I do think Landale's a great center, but if St Mary's had guarded JW3 one on one all night that JW3 would have scored 26 or more. I don't know of too many very good teams that would guard him one on one. Hermaston is a good player and certainly hurt us last night. Who have they played and who have they beat to prove your point? The Zags! I concede that they are a good team, and I think they're a top 30 team maybe top 20. And all of the teams in that category are very good. Let's see what happens the rest of the year. Between you and me, I think Gonzaga wins the WCC tournament, and St Mary's will one my time be on the bubble. The best thing about this year is that the best is yet to come. I like that. I've said it before, sometimes a loss turns out to be a good thing and for this team, this loss could turn out to be a good thing. I won't ever give up believing in our Zags. But I will not say that that we played a great game last night, nor do I believe St Mary's is better than Gonzaga. I'm looking for the rest of the season. It's getting very interesting now.

Zagceo
01-19-2018, 06:16 PM
Thank you very much for your post. I agree with much of what you posted but unfortunately the last 10 minutes of the game is championship basketball time and separates good teams from great teams.

3 FG in last 10 min.....amazing we lost by only 3

Nevada Don
01-19-2018, 06:34 PM
Yeah. I understand. I was quite upset last night, and honestly I don't now or never will like St Mary's. I guess I'm old fashioned in that opinion that a rivalry is a rivalry. I do think Landale's a great center, but if St Mary's had guarded JW3 one on one all night that JW3 would have scored 26 or more. I don't know of too many very good teams that would guard him one on one. Hermaston is a good player and certainly hurt us last night. Who have they played and who have they beat to prove your point? The Zags! I concede that they are a good team, and I think they're a top 30 team maybe top 20. And all of the teams in that category are very good. Let's see what happens the rest of the year. Between you and me, I think Gonzaga wins the WCC tournament, and St Mary's will one my time be on the bubble. The best thing about this year is that the best is yet to come. I like that. I've said it before, sometimes a loss turns out to be a good thing and for this team, this loss could turn out to be a good thing. I won't ever give up believing in our Zags. But I will not say that that we played a great game last night, nor do I believe St Mary's is better than Gonzaga. I'm looking for the rest of the season. It's getting very interesting now.

Reborn, hope you feel better as the days/weeks pass. I'm sure you will. Not that you need it, but if I could I'd buy you cocktail (a HIGHBALL as my parents used to call it). Salute !!

Zags11
01-19-2018, 07:10 PM
This is a very interesting topic regarding NWG and is even relevant due to the criticisms levied against Perkins this year.

My opinion on the matter is that there is no limit to the benefits of truly great leadership both on the court, off the court, in the film room, and in the weight room. Mark Few has stated that NWG was one of the best leaders he has ever had and NWG was so committed to running the gameplay that he dictated the flow both offensively and defensively and forced our will on the other team by coordinating and leading our team. He had so many intangibles that he is the very definition of the saying "the stats don't begin to show how much he impacts a game."

You are very correct in your stats and his struggles at times in March as well as the fact that this team is no where near as experienced or deep or skilled as this year. However, as other points have mentioned this last loss to St. Mary's and needing someone to take a big shot and how certain events lead to momentum changes, NWG was one of the best big moment shot takers we have ever had and he consistently took these shot and made these shots for us. So many times his stat sheet might look sub-par but those assists and those buckets many times were made when we needed them most to stop a run by the other team or go-ahead late.

My opinion is that NWG would make this current team better by getting more out of this team than the current hesitant leaders are getting. He would dictate tempo on offense and coordinate on defense and demand the very best from everyone on this team and he would make something happen in the biggest moments of the biggest games. He was the quintesintial "Alpha Dog" with intangibles that can't even begin to be quantified.

This current team is desperately missing many of the qualities he brought last year.

Sure and he may have. He also had crap games and crap assists to turnovers in regular season that we won. Was he a leader? Yep. Does this team lack a leader? Maybe. Idk I'm not in the locker room.

My point is people saying even when he shot poorly he ran the team well. 7 assists and 8 turnovers while shooting 27.5% is horrible. No way to spin it. Guess what? His teams won in march when previous zag squads would of lost due to the star disappearing.

It isn't fair to compare a player to last year. Last years team was stacked and could make up for players stinking up the court. This year? Nope.


* I loved goss. Think he is a stud. However the two teams are not even close.

MDABE80
01-19-2018, 07:47 PM
You guys will be arguing till the Santa Clara game and beyond! We'll be in the dance with 6 losses . Enjoy the rest of the season!!

GrizZAG
01-19-2018, 08:23 PM
Re-watched the game twice today with DVR backing up and checking many of the ref calls both ways. A critical juncture in the game was around 15 with GU up by 9 when Norvell got a bad over the back call that didn't happen, then immediately an over the back was called on Williams that absolutely did not happen. As a matter of fact Jock should have gotten that call for an illegal screen with his leg way out there tripping Williams. Williams was pulled from the game and they ate that 9 point lead up with Melson trying to defend Londale! Further Hermanson leveled Josh on the sideline off ball and that was missed in that final frantic minute of the game. Both teams played a great game but this one was ours. Not to take away from one heck of a game by St. Marys, but we got hosed by the refs. Kispert's misses were awfully expensive as well. I know, we should have been able to play through bad reffing, but just sayin....

Mantua
01-19-2018, 08:43 PM
You guys will be arguing till the Santa Clara game and beyond! We'll be in the dance with 6 losses . Enjoy the rest of the season!!

Maybe a play-in team?

MDABE80
01-19-2018, 09:02 PM
I think "at large" if we don't win the WCC tournament. Our good wins get us there. Of course we could always beat SMC twice. We didn't get beat by much last night. Drawing boards are already busy.BYU spells some trouble as well. I think we'll handle them. 4 losses now. Those won't matter much unless something really flubs.

MileHigh
01-20-2018, 05:43 AM
Whole lot over over analyzing in this thread.

Reasons for St Marys loss were simple:

Zags shot the ball like sh*t from 3 point range.
Zags couldnt stop Londale the last 5 minutes of the game.

The shooting problem is one I dont anticipate will happen when they meet again, but I guess you never know The Londale problem may have to be addressed through some occasional double teams, fronting him, or some zone

I would have liked to see Few maybe throw a little zone at SMU during a couple of late possessions to get Londale out of his rhythm. Overall a very well played college basketball game

mgadfly
01-20-2018, 07:36 AM
NWG finished the season at #5 in the entire nation in KenPom's overall efficiency ranking. That was Josh Hart, Jock Landale, Jonathan Motley, Caleb Swanigan and then NWG. Josh Perkins won't be making an appearance on that list this season.

NWG was equally efficient on offense (~120 O-Rating) taking a larger role (25% usage) on a "more stacked team that saved him (whatever that is supposed to mean)." Perkins is at about 20% usage by comparison.

NWG was a far better rebounder (you'd think he wouldn't be since our team was stacked with talent and size competing for those rebounding opportunities). Perkins is slightly ahead (26.9 vs 25.8) in assist rate but also much worse in turnover rate (20.9 vs 14.8 - low is good, so NWG by a good margin). NWG stole the ball more (2.9% vs 2.2%), fouled much less (1.9 vs 3.2), drew more fouls (4.8 vs 2.9), shot better free throws, and was more than a 3 point jump shooter (taking 336 2 point field goals - often times posting guards up). NWG was a nightmare matchup for small guards requiring the same type of prep that teams had to do for unique challenges like Karnowski.

There is absolutely no reasonable argument based on the eye-test or the stats that Perkins is the superior player. None. When they both could have won the starting point guard spot, one dominated the other so much that Perkins had a 14.4% usage rate while playing over 70% of the team's minutes. In all the stats that playing on a worse team would seem to be an advantage (because you could more easily be given the opportunities) Perkins is still inferior to Goss.

That does not mean that Perkins isn't pretty darn good though. Looking at his numbers he is a legitimate major college point guard and some people on the message board should understand that if the comparison was being made to former greats other than NWG and Blake Stepp, he'd be measuring up quite well. You don't have to tear down one of the great seasons a GU player has had from NWG to make the argument that Perkins is a legitimate player. His numbers speak for him (and they are good), comparing almost any of our guards' seasons to NWG's last year would lead to a similar result.

MDABE80
01-20-2018, 08:41 AM
Very definitive work mgad. Quite stunning actually. Doesn't leave much to argue about. My compliments! REAL math and REAL common sense!

Zags11
01-20-2018, 08:59 AM
NWG finished the season at #5 in the entire nation in KenPom's overall efficiency ranking. That was Josh Hart, Jock Landale, Jonathan Motley, Caleb Swanigan and then NWG. Josh Perkins won't be making an appearance on that list this season.

NWG was equally efficient on offense (~120 O-Rating) taking a larger role (25% usage) on a "more stacked team that saved him (whatever that is supposed to mean)." Perkins is at about 20% usage by comparison.

NWG was a far better rebounder (you'd think he wouldn't be since our team was stacked with talent and size competing for those rebounding opportunities). Perkins is slightly ahead (26.9 vs 25.8) in assist rate but also much worse in turnover rate (20.9 vs 14.8 - low is good, so NWG by a good margin). NWG stole the ball more (2.9% vs 2.2%), fouled much less (1.9 vs 3.2), drew more fouls (4.8 vs 2.9), shot better free throws, and was more than a 3 point jump shooter (taking 336 2 point field goals - often times posting guards up). NWG was a nightmare matchup for small guards requiring the same type of prep that teams had to do for unique challenges like Karnowski.

There is absolutely no reasonable argument based on the eye-test or the stats that Perkins is the superior player. None. When they both could have won the starting point guard spot, one dominated the other so much that Perkins had a 14.4% usage rate while playing over 70% of the team's minutes. In all the stats that playing on a worse team would seem to be an advantage (because you could more easily be given the opportunities) Perkins is still inferior to Goss.

That does not mean that Perkins isn't pretty darn good though. Looking at his numbers he is a legitimate major college point guard and some people on the message board should understand that if the comparison was being made to former greats other than NWG and Blake Stepp, he'd be measuring up quite well. You don't have to tear down one of the great seasons a GU player has had from NWG to make the argument that Perkins is a legitimate player. His numbers speak for him (and they are good), comparing almost any of our guards' seasons to NWG's last year would lead to a similar result.

Again that's pretty cool stats. Except it doesn't mean much to the debate that was at hand. Nobody said josh was better. The point was NWG got passes when he was terrible when josh would never get the pass. All those stats are neat if we we were debating who was better.

Again rebounds are hard to debate about. You had karno who loved to box out and clear room for other players to zoom in.

Nobody tried tearing down NWG. Again your going on one end of the spectrum. My point was 27.5% shooting with 7 assists and 8 turnovers would make most zag teams lose in the tournament. That isn't opinion as much as fact since you can go on and look at past history and look at this team.

And being on a better team helps in various ways. It helps on defense's not being able to double or getting better screens. It helps on getting the ball moved and rotated better.

Again, since I know the post was a reply to me I never said josh was better. I flat out showed peoples public opinion and memories would be different if NWG was on a normal GU team. People act like he was the 2nd coming. That is totally fine and I loved NWG but his team saved him from a GU 2nd rd or at best sw16 exit. 27.5% and 7 assists with 8 turnovers is a poor shooting night and poor led attack by the PG.

Again, NWG and Perkins are both Europe players. (I'd take that in life) The rest of the top 10 in "kenpom" are NBA players or still in college. The only one not in the NBA who isn't in college? NWG. So the team helped regardless of "kenpom".

This turned on a argument on NWG. Guess what? He left GU early. He could of been a senior but he didn't want that. I'm tires of wishing dude or Collins were on this team. They left GU early. They could of stayed. I understand when players graduate but they could be playing here still.

And this debate was brought up cuz we have posters who diss Our PG who stuck around whenever he has a bad game. Wah, wah, wah. Our former PG struggled at times and regardless of " kenpom" would of had us exit in 2nd or sw16 like normal zag squads. So "kenpom" or not it'd been the same exit except the former PG had a awesome team.

It is what it is. Our former guard left a year early for....Europe. I'm happy for him if he is happy but he was here 1 year and was on the most stacked team gonzaga ever had and then left early for europe ball.

I'm done talking down on nwg after this post. People made me wanna look up all those stats simply cuz they acted like other pgs who were studs would never do. People need to let go Collins and nwg being on this team. They didn't graduate and lost all eligibility. They left gonzaga early just like a sabonis or a daye. Move on. This team isn't as good.

Zags11
01-20-2018, 09:01 AM
Very definitive work mgad. Quite stunning actually. Doesn't leave much to argue about. My compliments!

Lmao. I'm shocked. ;)

MDABE80
01-20-2018, 10:27 AM
The best data wins but that's
Not the point. It's how a kids functions and his results as a PG. Hands down Nigel is favored. He knew his position and managed his guys to a FF. We'll have a different guard situation with a Terrific Group of bigs. Josh fits better next year. He's done what he could this year. I'm thinking if we have an easy path. We might get by the first weekend. .. so there's that.

mgadfly
01-20-2018, 10:46 AM
Again that's pretty cool stats. Except it doesn't mean much to the debate that was at hand.
...

Again, NWG and Perkins are both Europe players.

So "kenpom" or not it'd been the same exit except the former PG had a awesome team.

It is what it is.

The problem is that you say it isn't about who is better, but then go on about how they are both basically the same Europe type guys where one is getting the benefit of the doubt and the other isn't.

Maybe having one of the best seasons ever by a GU guard, leading the team with incredible work ethic and dedication, losing two games all season as the leader BUYS the PG the benefit of having bad games.

And while we are talking about facts, his team didn't lose in the Sweet 16 and statistically he was the MVP in three of our 6 tournament games.

Perkins is a very good guard. Perkins (as a point guard) hasn't earned the benefit of the doubt to the same degree that NWG earned.

Zags11
01-20-2018, 10:56 AM
The problem is that you say it isn't about who is better, but then go on about how they are both basically the same Europe type guys where one is getting the benefit of the doubt and the other isn't.

Maybe having one of the best seasons ever by a GU guard, leading the team with incredible work ethic and dedication, losing two games all season as the leader BUYS the PG the benefit of having bad games.

And while we are talking about facts, his team didn't lose in the Sweet 16 and statistically he was the MVP in three of our 6 tournament games.

Perkins is a very good guard. Perkins (as a point guard) hasn't earned the benefit of the doubt to the same degree that NWG earned.

Goss had enough bad games during regular season.

I'm done cuz I like goss.

Facts:

Goss and Collins left for greener pastures in their opinion.

Goss had best team in zag history that won in march when he sucked all around where other zag teams are eliminated.

Goss isn't a NBA player. He is a European player like a karno or gray.

This years team doesn't have the talent last years team does.

I'm done with this debate. Collins and Goss left the zags. Goss could of stayed and been in Europe a year later.

Zags11
01-20-2018, 11:00 AM
The problem is that you say it isn't about who is better, but then go on about how they are both basically the same Europe type guys where one is getting the benefit of the doubt and the other isn't.

Maybe having one of the best seasons ever by a GU guard, leading the team with incredible work ethic and dedication, losing two games all season as the leader BUYS the PG the benefit of having bad games.

And while we are talking about facts, his team didn't lose in the Sweet 16 and statistically he was the MVP in three of our 6 tournament games.

Perkins is a very good guard. Perkins (as a point guard) hasn't earned the benefit of the doubt to the same degree that NWG earned.

Lastly if you think he had better seasons then a stepp or dickau or even a senior rav had? OK.

mgadfly
01-20-2018, 11:02 AM
Goss had enough bad games during regular season.

I'm done cuz I like goss.

Facts:

Goss and Collins left for greener pastures in their opinion.

Goss had best team in zag history that won in march when he sucked all around where other zag teams are eliminated.


He didn't "suck all around" and saying he does makes me think you just don't like Goss and are lying about that or are really peeved he left.

He certainly had bad games against UNC and WVU. But he was also pretty darn good against Northwestern, Xavier, and South Carolina. In the Final Four, he had 23 points on 9-15 shooting to go with 6 assists and 5 rebounds. In the Elite 8 he shot poorly from inside, but still went 4-7 from three and had 8 rebounds and 4 assists.

mgadfly
01-20-2018, 11:03 AM
Lastly if you think he had better seasons then a stepp or dickau or even a senior rav had? OK.

So you don't like Goss. And are we talking senior Steps or Junior Steps. I personally think Junior-Stepp is the best season by a Zag guard.

mgadfly
01-20-2018, 11:08 AM
or even a senior rav had? OK.

I loved Ravio but come on, really? His senior season he didn't even win the PG job for the team. They lost 11 games including the first round of the NCAA. He was crazy efficient on offense (122.7 O-Rating helped a lot by a 96.1% FT shooting) with a usage similar (but a little lower) to NWG. But didn't get assists, steals, rebounds at anywhere close to what NWG accomplished. So, yeah, I'll take the guy that basically matches the impact of Raivio offensively, but also does a whole bunch of other stuff really well for a guard.

Ezag
01-20-2018, 11:12 AM
Goss was awesome but the truth of the matter is that we really only had a small sampling of him. We had several years with all the other GU point guard greats. No sense to continue hashing, rehashing and what if's.

Zags11
01-20-2018, 12:01 PM
He didn't "suck all around" and saying he does makes me think you just don't like Goss and are lying about that or are really peeved he left.

He certainly had bad games against UNC and WVU. But he was also pretty darn good against Northwestern, Xavier, and South Carolina. In the Final Four, he had 23 points on 9-15 shooting to go with 6 assists and 5 rebounds. In the Elite 8 he shot poorly from inside, but still went 4-7 from three and had 8 rebounds and 4 assists.

He did suck during the games I exampled. Its OK he did. I love goss and its OK to admit that he wasn't good during those games shooting or passing and with a normal zags team we don't get to see his good games in march.

Zags11
01-20-2018, 12:03 PM
So you don't like Goss. And are we talking senior Steps or Junior Steps. I personally think Junior-Stepp is the best season by a Zag guard.

Junior stepp.

And I love goss. I just can admit he wasn't perfect like other posters think he was. That's why i went against the grid and pulled out examples. If people didn't poop on our current zags for people who left that would never happened.

And to say I hate goss is silly. Your not in my brain and don't know what I felt. Maybe get off his nuts and take a breath of fresh air.

Zags11
01-20-2018, 12:06 PM
I loved Ravio but come on, really? His senior season he didn't even win the PG job for the team. They lost 11 games including the first round of the NCAA. He was crazy efficient on offense (122.7 O-Rating helped a lot by a 96.1% FT shooting) with a usage similar (but a little lower) to NWG. But didn't get assists, steals, rebounds at anywhere close to what NWG accomplished. So, yeah, I'll take the guy that basically matches the impact of Raivio offensively, but also does a whole bunch of other stuff really well for a guard.

Who was on Derek's team? Few said "he is the reason we made March." Again your comparing apples to oranges. Who did Derek have that year? Who did Derek have that compared to nwg one year in zag gear?


I'll wait. Its not comparable. You THINK I hate goss cuz I can admit when my favorite zags struggled.

Guess what? Blake stepp was one of my favorite all time zags ever. Guess what? He sucked in march for the most part. He had right or wrong a choke label on him for march tourny games.

Now I'm sure I hate stepp too right? Or is it just goss I hate?

Zags11
01-20-2018, 12:11 PM
Goss was awesome but the truth of the matter is that we really only had a small sampling of him. We had several years with all the other GU point guard greats. No sense to continue hashing, rehashing and what if's.

Honestly that was my point. My point was no matter what our current PG does, people will say too bad we didn't have goss. Sure I agree. Also too bad we didn't have Collins, karno, or last years team.

People act like our last pg didn't struggle and didn't have bad games. Fortunately for us and him, his bad games in NCAA didn't matter as we had THE TEAM to back him up. Other players didn't. So their bad games led to losses and his still were wins for most part.

Goss was a stud. Goss was a great guy. I watched his post game interviews after NC loss thinking damn he is gone. What a stud. Unfortunately, people on this board have to always find reasons to badmouth our current guards and act like our stars didn't struggle last yr.

But again MG I was a huge goss fan. Actually I like all my zags that put on a uniform ever.

bballbeachbum
01-20-2018, 04:53 PM
sorry but did not read all the posts. I typically do before commenting on a thread

anyway, Zags went to Rui down the stretch. late examples, Few called his number with the baseline screen to get him the ball right low block. next possession Zags tried hi lo to Rui from JIII. can't remember Few ever calling Rui's number down the stretch before.

bigger issues were defending down the stretch. whereas Landale coud not get consistent touches in his spots for about 2/3-3/4 of the game, once he started to and the JIII denial D waned under that physical mismatch, Landale went off. No rim protector really showed not only in Few's tactic of fronting and denying Landale but also once Landale started to get those consistent touches it was no contest around the rim

Josh played a nice game except for 1-9, which is bad obviously.

thought it was cool to see Few go to Rui down the stretch even with the L

bballbeachbum
01-20-2018, 05:51 PM
I guess I'm in the minority here. I thought the game was played well by both teams. GU (and Few) had a game plan to limit the number of three point attempts by SMC and it worked. They held them to 13 attempts. Unfortunately, they made 8 of them. If they had shot just 50% we'd have won and the strategy would have been genius.

If I was going to criticize the coach on this one, it'd be for the 6 man rotation. We outscored them in the first, second, and third ten minutes. Then gave up the lead by being outscored 20-10 in the final 10 minutes of play. Kispert and Larsen both looked out of sorts, so you can't be too upset that outside the top 6 the rest of the team played 14 minutes, but it might have been nice to have the guys a little fresher down the stretch.

I know that JW3 gave up a lot of points, but I thought he was incredibly tough despite being over matched. I thought Rui was sensational in every aspect of the game. There was even a moment where Perkins waived him through (fairly emphatically) and Rui looked at the offense and recognized there were two wings on the other side and no place for him to cut through to, and waived off Perkins' misguided directions. That's a level of maturity and recognition that he didn't have last season.

As far as Perkins goes, he was put in bad situations by teammates too many times. He had a decent game as the ball-handler/distributor. However, there were a couple of plays that really ticked me off. He was fouled, knocked to the ground, and didn't get the call. He laid there on his back holding his hands up jawing at the ref. Saint Mary's took a five on four for a two point basket in the first half. When it happened in the second half they made the wide open three from the corner. Get up, get back on defense, and jaw at the ref during the next timeout.

finally reading this thread.
great post

bballbeachbum
01-20-2018, 05:54 PM
Key plays of second half IMO

15:09 mark Perkins penetrates key kick out wide open melson. Misses shot could have pushed lead to 12

14:09 Perkins drives lane misses tille get o rebound but throws away then in transition fouls 3 point shooter instead of 52-46 or possibly 54-46. It becomes 52-48 with mo change


11:37. Norvell quick out of flow 3 point shot missed with us up 57-52. Hermanson makes shot score now 57-54

10:41. Up 61-54. Rui misses easy bunny. SMC scores. 61-56

8:12 mark transition 3 ball for SMC when rui in transition goes to paint instead of his player who fanned out for open 3 ball. SMC takes lead 63-61

Next possession rui on block dribbles out to wing then dribbles top key short pass to Perkins with 3 on shot clock missed three ball

4:00 ford drives right rui sticks to his big man who is 2 feet beyond three line instead of rotating down lane for weakside responsibility miss shot landale weakside put back

Next possession rui drives and is triple teamed forcing wild shot

3:13. Melson drive basket hammered across arm and head no call

Down 70-68. J3 misses bunny

10 sets that made a difference imo

another great post, thanks. love the game analysis thread.

jbslicer
01-21-2018, 06:23 AM
[QUOTE=Hoopaholic;1353248]Key plays of second half IMO

15:09 mark Perkins penetrates key kick out wide open melson. Misses shot could have pushed lead to 12

14:09 Perkins drives lane misses tille get o rebound but throws away then in transition fouls 3 point shooter instead of 52-46 or possibly 54-46. It becomes 52-48 with mo change


11:37. Norvell quick out of flow 3 point shot missed with us up 57-52. Hermanson makes shot score now 57-54

10:41. Up 61-54. Rui misses easy bunny. SMC scores. 61-56

8:12 mark transition 3 ball for SMC when rui in transition goes to paint instead of his player who fanned out for open 3 ball. SMC takes lead 63-61

Next possession rui on block dribbles out to wing then dribbles top key short pass to Perkins with 3 on shot clock missed three ball

4:00 ford drives right rui sticks to his big man who is 2 feet beyond three line instead of rotating down lane for weakside responsibility miss shot landale weakside put back

Next possession rui drives and is triple teamed forcing wild shot

3:13. Melson drive basket hammered across arm and head no call

Down 70-68. J3 misses bunny

10 sets that made a difference imo[/QUOTE

20:00. Rui not starting the second half.

Hoopaholic
01-21-2018, 08:26 AM
[QUOTE=Hoopaholic;1353248]Key plays of second half IMO

15:09 mark Perkins penetrates key kick out wide open melson. Misses shot could have pushed lead to 12

14:09 Perkins drives lane misses tille get o rebound but throws away then in transition fouls 3 point shooter instead of 52-46 or possibly 54-46. It becomes 52-48 with mo change


11:37. Norvell quick out of flow 3 point shot missed with us up 57-52. Hermanson makes shot score now 57-54

10:41. Up 61-54. Rui misses easy bunny. SMC scores. 61-56

8:12 mark transition 3 ball for SMC when rui in transition goes to paint instead of his player who fanned out for open 3 ball. SMC takes lead 63-61

Next possession rui on block dribbles out to wing then dribbles top key short pass to Perkins with 3 on shot clock missed three ball

4:00 ford drives right rui sticks to his big man who is 2 feet beyond three line instead of rotating down lane for weakside responsibility miss shot landale weakside put back

Next possession rui drives and is triple teamed forcing wild shot

3:13. Melson drive basket hammered across arm and head no call

Down 70-68. J3 misses bunny

10 sets that made a difference imo[/QUOTE

20:00. Rui not starting the second half.

We can agree to disagree. I truly believe coaches uses those first few critical moments to show rui as he is still learning

First 5 minutes shows the adjustments by opposing team and the nuisances of the game is the one area rui still needs work on