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View Full Version : Serious question about zags and wcc and moving elsewhere and march madness.



Zags11
01-12-2018, 09:28 AM
I see fans hating the wcc and want us out and I see people who are fine with zags in the wcc.

I understand both point of views. I really do.

My main question is this:

Would you rather move to the ACC(example) and miss march madness at times when we aren't as good?

Or

Stay in the wcc and even in the down years make March madness?

I'm picking option B. Nothing more exciting then seeing gonzaga on selection Sunday.

strikenowhere
01-12-2018, 09:53 AM
I see fans hating the wcc and want us out and I see people who are fine with zags in the wcc.

I understand both point of views. I really do.

My main question is this:

Would you rather move to the ACC(example) and miss march madness at times when we aren't as good?

Or

Stay in the wcc and even in the down years make March madness?

I'm picking option B. Nothing more exciting then seeing gonzaga on selection Sunday.

I like blow-outs as much as the net guy, but after a while doesn't it get a bit repetitive? One of the main goals for student-athletes is to help them grow in their abilities; why can't the entire program do that as well? Why not try to prove itself against better competition in a more competitive league? Sure the team makes it to the Dance every year, but it took 17 years to finally assemble a team worthy enough to get to the Championship game. Without the tougher competition (and greater recruiting prizes as a result) it will probably take another 17 years to repeat that feat. I understand that the chance would be greater of the Zags missing the Dance if they moved to better league, but I would think the potential rewards in recruits, prestige, and competition would outweigh that. What is life without taking the occasional chance? Its safe, soft, & unfulfilling.

dhozagfan08
01-12-2018, 09:59 AM
I choose option C. Join a better league that prepares us for the tournament, so that when we get there we have a higher ceiling( in general obviously we have done very well the last 3 years). Also, be even more like a Duke, Kansas, UNC and still make the tourney every year!

MileHigh
01-12-2018, 10:02 AM
The whole point of sports in general is the competition. If 2/3 of your contests are not even a legit competition then what is the point? I would like to think that the journey (reg season and conf tournament) is as important as the end (NCAA tourney) where the powers that be would want to make the journey as fulfilling for the student athletes and fans as possible. In the ACC, Big East, etc, through your reg season and conference tournament you are likely to play 20 games where if you come out and dont play well there is a chance you are going home with an "L"

I can tell you the players (well at least the guys that play a lot) absolutely abhor these mismatches. Players love BIG games

Zagceo
01-12-2018, 10:33 AM
The goal for Zags should be win bigly I mean big league.

We outscored Portland 50 to 16 in the paint and took 35 3 pointers last night. someone mentioned we could have easily scored 120+ if our team was hot instead of just Silas from behind the arc.

No mercy shoot for records. Embrace superiority. Play the villain on the road pressing late in games and letting student managers get quality minutes.

Showing teams up should be done with pride. It doesn't hold us back from getting in the dance.

Competition is for records in conference this year.

Think Loyola and Pepperdine in the day scoring 140's except with defense.

Gotta motivate players somehow and make blowouts worth watching.

Can't find another league suitable. Pound the one you're in.

or not:horse:

adoptedzag
01-12-2018, 10:44 AM
The goal for Zags should be win bigly I mean big league.

We outscored Portland 50 to 16 in the paint and took 35 3 pointers last night. someone mentioned we could have easily scored 120+ if our team was hot instead of just Silas from behind the arc.

No mercy shoot for records. Embrace superiority. Play the villain on the road pressing late in games and letting student managers get quality minutes.

Showing teams up should be done with pride. It doesn't hold us back from getting in the dance.

Competition is for records in conference this year.

Think Loyola and Pepperdine in the day scoring 140's except with defense.

Gotta motivate players somehow and make blowouts worth watching.

Can't find another league suitable. Pound the one you're in.

or not:horse:

QFT

jchocolate99
01-12-2018, 11:05 AM
Would you rather move to the ACC(example) and miss march madness at times when we aren't as good?




The ACC sent 9 teams to the tourney last season and the Big East sent 7 teams... So while I hear your view and others views on how being in the WCC damn near guarantees us a Tourney spot it's not ideal because being in the WCC is darn near zero sum. We either have to be top 15 good to get an at large bid or win our conference like we did two seasons ago when we didn't have the resume to get in the tourney. Being in a conference that's sending 7-9 teams to the tournament gives you more leeway because losing to the middle of the pack team is not as detrimental to your resume as losing to a middle of the pack WCC team. Every season we can only afford to lose to SMC or BYU in our conference... Sign me up for a better conference and better competition.

It's just sad that the WCC refuses to better itself in basketball. The conference is such an ideal location to be the Big East of the west with schools in great locations. Some of these other schools need to get over themselves... Being profitable in basketball doesn't have to mean selling your soul. Gonzaga University has benefited overall from the success of the basketball program and so would these other schools.

seacatfan
01-12-2018, 11:07 AM
Butler made back to back appearances in the Championship game as a member of the Horizon Conference. Since then they stepped up to the Atlantic 10 and then the reconfigured Big East. They haven't been past the Sweet 16 since they left the Horizon. The increase in competition really hasn't made Butler into a better basketball program.

Xavier followed a similar path. Mid Continent, A-10, Big East. They've made Sweet 16's and Elite 8's all throughout their history. While they are frequently ranked in the top 10 now, they haven't kicked down the door to a Final 4 yet. I think X is overall stronger now since joining the Big East, but to think that automatically leads to more frequent deep runs in the Tourney is a fallacy.

seacatfan
01-12-2018, 11:17 AM
Creighton is another. How much have they actually improved since joining the Big East?

Is Wichita St. really helped at all by moving to the AAC? They were already a very strong program, and the AAC isn't all that strong. Not much more than a lateral move.

Zagnificent
01-12-2018, 11:30 AM
I see fans hating the wcc and want us out and I see people who are fine with zags in the wcc.

I understand both point of views. I really do.

My main question is this:

Would you rather move to the ACC(example) and miss march madness at times when we aren't as good?

Or

Stay in the wcc and even in the down years make March madness?

I'm picking option B. Nothing more exciting then seeing gonzaga on selection Sunday.

I offer a third approach--incentivize the WCC to suck less. Can we offer each WCC team (outside of St. Mary's or BYU) $100k for each RPI Top-100 win they rack up in the OOC schedule? Just thinking out loud here...

hooter73
01-12-2018, 11:31 AM
The whole point of sports in general is the competition. If 2/3 of your contests are not even a legit competition then what is the point? I would like to think that the journey (reg season and conf tournament) is as important as the end (NCAA tourney) where the powers that be would want to make the journey as fulfilling for the student athletes and fans as possible. In the ACC, Big East, etc, through your reg season and conference tournament you are likely to play 20 games where if you come out and dont play well there is a chance you are going home with an "L"

I can tell you the players (well at least the guys that play a lot) absolutely abhor these mismatches. Players love BIG games

This is where I fall in as well. Its about continued elevation. I am not ok with accepting adequacy. Kansas, Kentucky, Duke, NC etc. the blue bloods, the majors, the name recognition for being powerhouses, they are at the top because of continual success, not because after one or two championships, they stayed with things as they were. I believe in continued growth and play the numbers and last year's success as you may, the WCC holds us back from getting bigger recruits and developing our players to be able to dominate against other high level talents year after year. Playing the WCC hurts our RPI, lets our players over-inflate, and worst, our players get hurt when the opposition gets frustrated and lashes out. Flagrant technicals happen more from the bottom teams than the top.

willandi
01-12-2018, 11:40 AM
Gonzaga should just drop all sports. The admins and staff obviously don't know what they are doing and it causes too much angst here on the GU Boards.

JPtheBeasta
01-12-2018, 12:37 PM
The Zags may make it look easy at times, but winning the WCC championship is not an easy task, from what the coaches and past players say. The Zags have been very close to not winning the league in recent memory.

ZagsObserver
01-12-2018, 12:41 PM
I see fans hating the wcc and want us out and I see people who are fine with zags in the wcc.

I understand both point of views. I really do.

My main question is this:

Would you rather move to the ACC(example) and miss march madness at times when we aren't as good?

Or

Stay in the wcc and even in the down years make March madness?

I'm picking option B. Nothing more exciting then seeing gonzaga on selection Sunday.

That’s kind of a complex question fallacy. You have assumed that being in a power conference reduces our chances of making the tournament. I’m not sure I agree with that. We could tolerate more losses and recruit better in the acc, for example. The opposite might instead be true. In either case, it’s a false question.

LongIslandZagFan
01-12-2018, 12:51 PM
Not sure what my answer is...

but I will add this:

Playing in a down WCC is hiding some major flaws with this team. They turn the ball over way too much, shot selection is dicey at times and many times they look outright dysfunctional in the half-court.

JMHO... next Thursday will be a major test.

GonzagasaurusFlex
01-12-2018, 12:53 PM
The whole point of sports in general is the competition. If 2/3 of your contests are not even a legit competition then what is the point? I would like to think that the journey (reg season and conf tournament) is as important as the end (NCAA tourney) where the powers that be would want to make the journey as fulfilling for the student athletes and fans as possible. In the ACC, Big East, etc, through your reg season and conference tournament you are likely to play 20 games where if you come out and dont play well there is a chance you are going home with an "L"

I can tell you the players (well at least the guys that play a lot) absolutely abhor these mismatches. Players love BIG games

+1

ZagzKrak
01-12-2018, 01:13 PM
I'm sure we would all love to see the Zags in a better conf. but there just isn't one that makes any sense to join. An east coast conf. just doesn't make sense..if I'm a team in the Big East would I really vote to add the Zags...No...we just don't bring enough to justify sharing a piece of the pie while adding to our travel expense. The only one that makes sense for us is the Pac12 but we don't have football. I think we are stuck here, so we may as well enjoy the blow out wins.

TacomaZAG
01-12-2018, 01:53 PM
I offer a third approach--incentivize the WCC to suck less. Can we offer each WCC team (outside of St. Mary's or BYU) $100k for each RPI Top-100 win they rack up in the OOC schedule? Just thinking out loud here...

Don't we already do that through the money sharing agreement in the WCC, for all our Tourney success?? As has been said numerous times in numerous threads, there is nowhere for the ZAGS to go, in addition to the fact that every other sport at GU is a perfect fit for the WCC. IMHO, even if the MBB program went independent or joined another conference as a MBB stand alone, the division from the other sports wouldn't be worth it.

All that being said, the guaranteed beat downs get old. I think part of the problem this year is with the schedule. At 5-0, the guys have beaten the 4 conference bottom feeders and middling Santa Clara. Tomorrow's game at USF isn't going to help anything, either.

Go ZAGS

spike_jr
01-12-2018, 02:26 PM
I offer a third approach--incentivize the WCC to suck less. Can we offer each WCC team (outside of St. Mary's or BYU) $100k for each RPI Top-100 win they rack up in the OOC schedule? Just thinking out loud here...

I kind of like your thought. The money could come from the NCAA pot that is currently generated by GU, SMC, and BYU to some degree. Don't do annual "equal" shares to the schools not named BYU, GU and SMC. There is your incentive to go out, play somebody, and win. Maybe we should apply it to SMC too ;-)

gonzagafan62
01-12-2018, 02:40 PM
Oh yeah let's 1 star a thread for no reason.

Ezag
01-12-2018, 02:58 PM
Not really much choice but to stay in the WCC since there are not many options out west. Our first 4 WCC games were snoozefests and I watched them while surfing on my laptop and knitting a scarf. It is what it is.

Rezzagfan
01-12-2018, 03:18 PM
Another question is do they get invited to these preseason tournaments being middle of the road team in a bigger conference?

229SintoZag
01-12-2018, 03:44 PM
The Zags may make it look easy at times, but winning the WCC championship is not an easy task, from what the coaches and past players say. The Zags have been very close to not winning the league in recent memory.

Very close?

How soon we forget that it was just a few years ago that the Zags did not win, or tie, for the WCC championship, instead losing it to St. Mary's. It was the first time in something like a dozen years.

But it did happen. Prevented the Zags from beating UCLA's record for most consecutive conference championships as I recall.

thespywhozaggedme
01-12-2018, 03:59 PM
Another question is do they get invited to these preseason tournaments being middle of the road team in a bigger conference?

Why would you assume that we would be a middle of the road team? We are already a major program in a very mid major conference, if we joined a major conference we would not lose out on as many recruits as we currently do due to our current conference affiliation. In other words I would argue that we would be even better.

GorgeZag
01-12-2018, 05:10 PM
Why would you assume that we would be a middle of the road team? We are already a major program in a very mid major conference, if we joined a major conference we would not lose out on as many recruits as we currently do due to our current conference affiliation. In other words I would argue that we would be even better.



I agree. Bigger conference = better recruiting = more frequent deep runs when it counts.

Zags11
01-12-2018, 05:56 PM
Oh yeah let's 1 star a thread for no reason.

Lol.

Zags11
01-12-2018, 05:57 PM
Love the responses. Thank you to all answering.

TexasZagFan
01-12-2018, 06:06 PM
I offer a third approach--incentivize the WCC to suck less. Can we offer each WCC team (outside of St. Mary's or BYU) $100k for each RPI Top-100 win they rack up in the OOC schedule? Just thinking out loud here...

On top of the $300K to $500k (for doing nothing) they’ll be getting every year for the next 5-6 years for being in the same conference as Gonzaga, whose 5 shares from last year alone total over $8 million. That’s $1.3 million per year for 6 years.

The TV contract expires next year. Outside of us, BYU, and SMC, “The W” has little else to offer the networks. The Zags are the meal ticket for the WCC, and several universities are quite content with the situation.

TexasZagFan
01-12-2018, 06:12 PM
Thatís kind of a complex question fallacy. You have assumed that being in a power conference reduces our chances of making the tournament. Iím not sure I agree with that. We could tolerate more losses and recruit better in the acc, for example. The opposite might instead be true. In either case, itís a false question.

Being in a consistently multi bid conference would mean an additional $5-$10 million in tournament and TV money per year. The pressure to build your resume before Christmas would vanish.

DixieZag
01-12-2018, 06:16 PM
All I know is that the bottom of the WCC has never been more bottomed out.

I also know that we have 2 teams tied for third place that are more than 4 games below .500

I suppose it's in part bc of the way the conference schedule worked out this year, but man does it look particularly bad this year. And, at times I don't think we've been particularly good.

This year perhaps more than any, the conference might really hurt a team that could develop substantially, but perhaps won't. Who knows?

Zagsker
01-12-2018, 06:29 PM
I see fans hating the wcc and want us out and I see people who are fine with zags in the wcc.

I understand both point of views. I really do.

My main question is this:

Would you rather move to the ACC(example) and miss march madness at times when we aren't as good?

Or

Stay in the wcc and even in the down years make March madness?

I'm picking option B. Nothing more exciting then seeing gonzaga on selection Sunday.

Or C

Stay in the WCC and in down years maybe not make the tourney because the conference sucks and the program errodes back into obscurity.

In all honesty this is what I see happening if we do not upgrade conference. There is going to come a year when we hit a player lull and we do not make the tourney and that moment will compound itself

Bogozags
01-12-2018, 06:35 PM
Being in a consistently multi bid conference would mean an additional $5-$10 million in tournament and TV money per year. The pressure to build your resume before Christmas would vanish.

I think that might well be another reason the BE isn’t interested in expanding...10% of $5-$10 is better than 8.5% of that amount...many things would change if GU was in a conference like the BE...BUT what benefit does the BE get from expansion?

jpn17
01-12-2018, 06:46 PM
Butler made back to back appearances in the Championship game as a member of the Horizon Conference. Since then they stepped up to the Atlantic 10 and then the reconfigured Big East. They haven't been past the Sweet 16 since they left the Horizon. The increase in competition really hasn't made Butler into a better basketball program.

Xavier followed a similar path. Mid Continent, A-10, Big East. They've made Sweet 16's and Elite 8's all throughout their history. While they are frequently ranked in the top 10 now, they haven't kicked down the door to a Final 4 yet. I think X is overall stronger now since joining the Big East, but to think that automatically leads to more frequent deep runs in the Tourney is a fallacy.

While I do see your point, it can't be overstated how big of an impact it was for Butler to lose Brad Stevens.

JPtheBeasta
01-12-2018, 07:58 PM
Very close?

How soon we forget that it was just a few years ago that the Zags did not win, or tie, for the WCC championship, instead losing it to St. Mary's. It was the first time in something like a dozen years.

But it did happen. Prevented the Zags from beating UCLA's record for most consecutive conference championships as I recall.

Good point. I must have suppressed that memory.

sittingon50
01-12-2018, 09:05 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGPdkm8v9HE

GeorgiaZagFan
01-12-2018, 10:46 PM
the problem is this..without a division 1 football program the Zags conference options are limited. I think for the size school the program is doing just fine and I wouldn't change a thing. They play enough good competition through the year to get ready for March Madness...I believe they have equaled or exceeded their NCAA tourney seeding 8 of the last 9 years...no need to change!

WallaWallaZag
01-12-2018, 11:33 PM
i'll throw my 2 cents in...

i think the wcc limits the zags ceiling...basically as a direct result of recruiting, hard to get the best US guys to come

however, i actually don't think the lack of competition hurts as much as some think (and as i used to think).

the reason is this: as i've gained experience, i'm starting to realize the importance of being able to fine tune things and experiment as a season goes along...the wcc provides this while being in a conference like say the big 12 gives almost zero chance...even the best teams need to play at least a "b" game to win. zags schedule is almost perfect in a way...tough comp in the non-con to see where you stand and what you need to work on...the wcc to work on weaknesses and experiment, with a few games sprinkled in to test the results. the wcc also lets you rest up if necessary and even take a breath while trying to build up and peak for the stretch run of wcc tournament and march madness. almost like tennis and time spent between majors. it's a hard process to get right, but with the continuity at gonzaga once you have it figured out, it should be repeatable.

TravelinZag
01-13-2018, 05:20 AM
Watch how many bids the Big East gets, or just look at the number go Big East teams in the top 40 0r 50. Currently all 10 Big East are 110 or better in BPI, four are ranked in the top 25, six in the top 50. Big East incentives: a national conference, expanded tv markets, opportunity to reclaim their position as the #1 basketball conference in the nation, join the expansion trend before you're boxed out for quality programs that meet your high results. GU fits their profile: mostly relatively small, private schools who don't, and would lose money, playing football.

In the WCC, Gonzaga must win tournament or finish in at very least, the top two to get a bid. Has worked for a lot of years, but not forever. In the Big East, no high school gyms that only come close to selling out for the Zags. In the Big East, could punch an annual dance ticket by finishing top-4 or 5. Gonzaga has become a premier basketball team. Playing in the NCAA tournament should mean more than going to Las Vegas. Anyone who wants to can go there anytime.

Yeah, travel costs. Nearly all GU sports lose money, and some have huge expenses. Better league equals higher tv revenue, and could justify a game or two annually in the arena (given a decent win-win contract). Greater exposure for the university and the city, for the team and they players. Would require some adjustments to recruiting and strategy to match better opponents week after week. The recruiting adjustments may have already begun.

I'd rather watch the Zags continue to dance annually by playing better ball in a top conference even if winning the conference were not a given, and in a down year, even fifth or sixth gets the ticket punched.

Go Zags! Both this year and in the future.

avid-zag-fan
01-13-2018, 06:06 AM
the only realistic option would be basketball only in the pac12. but I think the WCC is still GU's best option. It's the bottom half of the conference that's just plain atrocious. for fun go to KenPom.com click on the conferences starting at the top of the list. Green is good, Red bad. That red is why the game against Portland was 64 of 66 on his FanMatch page. BYU was 62 and SMC 55. ESPN would surely carry more games and pay more for reasonable match ups. To me the answer to this problem is use KenPom or BPI to give a larger % to top 50 teams, then less and less for each 50 thereafter. 300 or worse gets none. scale it in over several years to give the bottom teams a chance to build up their programs. I think if SMC doesn't win a game against GU and loses 1 additional game, they will be left out of the tournament again. That costs the league money and gives it to a power 5 conference. Using the adj analytics GU should be a 2 seed and SMC a 5 seed. WCC needs to build it's reputation.

ZagsObserver
01-13-2018, 06:36 AM
In the Butler example, note that they never made it past the sweet 16 before their two final 4 runs either. Their success before and after those two years is about equal. The coaching changes there have probably played a bigger role. They are certainly making more money now, though.

adoptedzag
01-13-2018, 11:36 AM
i'll throw my 2 cents in...

i think the wcc limits the zags ceiling...basically as a direct result of recruiting, hard to get the best US guys to come

however, i actually don't think the lack of competition hurts as much as some think (and as i used to think).

the reason is this: as i've gained experience, i'm starting to realize the importance of being able to fine tune things and experiment as a season goes along...the wcc provides this while being in a conference like say the big 12 gives almost zero chance...even the best teams need to play at least a "b" game to win. zags schedule is almost perfect in a way...tough comp in the non-con to see where you stand and what you need to work on...the wcc to work on weaknesses and experiment, with a few games sprinkled in to test the results. the wcc also lets you rest up if necessary and even take a breath while trying to build up and peak for the stretch run of wcc tournament and march madness. almost like tennis and time spent between majors. it's a hard process to get right, but with the continuity at gonzaga once you have it figured out, it should be repeatable.

Limits the zags ceiling to what, the National Championship game? I'm failing to see what the limitation is.

Ezag
01-13-2018, 12:04 PM
Limits the zags ceiling to what, the National Championship game? I'm failing to see what the limitation is.

Maybe if we won, we wouldn't be having this discussion?

Zags11
01-13-2018, 12:12 PM
Love how when ppl disagree on here they one star it. Lol.

dhozagfan08
01-13-2018, 12:55 PM
Has the administration ever talked about adding a football team? I'm sure it would be difficult and would take a long time to build up, but I would think it's doable if a small school like Whitworth can have one. That would give us the option of at least going to a conference like the MWC, which would be an upgrade over the WCC.

Zagal
01-13-2018, 01:06 PM
Mountain West is the obvious answer. There are several very strong programs, and several others with a solid bball tradition. UNLV, UNR, SDSU, Boise, CSU, FSU.
A definite step up in competition w/out all the extra travel. I'd bet they would change any bylaws to attract the Zags.

Zagger
01-13-2018, 02:08 PM
the problem is this..without a division 1 football program the Zags conference options are limited. I think for the size school the program is doing just fine and I wouldn't change a thing. They play enough good competition through the year to get ready for March Madness...I believe they have equaled or exceeded their NCAA tourney seeding 8 of the last 9 years...no need to change!

I’d go to Zags football games :)

seacatfan
01-13-2018, 02:13 PM
Oregon started a baseball program from scratch about a decade or so ago. Starting a football program from the ground up...that would be a serious undertaking. Scholarship limit for football is 85. You have to have some depth. I would think you would have to be out recruiting for 2-3 years before you could actually field a team. Tough sell for kids to come in and practice for a few years without being able to play games. Not to mention building a football stadium would be cost prohibitive. I'd say it's a pipe dream, not happening. Not that anyone associated w/ the school is actually talking about starting a football program are they?

seacatfan
01-13-2018, 02:20 PM
While I do see your point, it can't be overstated how big of an impact it was for Butler to lose Brad Stevens.

Fair enough. So their post season success was more due to a coach than conference affiliation. I'm sure they are bringing in different types of kids now than they were 10 years ago or whatever, but it doesn't seem like's it's had that dramatic of an effect for them.

willandi
01-13-2018, 03:03 PM
Oregon started a baseball program from scratch about a decade or so ago. Starting a football program from the ground up...that would be a serious undertaking. Scholarship limit for football is 85. You have to have some depth. I would think you would have to be out recruiting for 2-3 years before you could actually field a team. Tough sell for kids to come in and practice for a few years without being able to play games. Not to mention building a football stadium would be cost prohibitive. I'd say it's a pipe dream, not happening. Not that anyone associated w/ the school is actually talking about starting a football program are they?

They could do Div AA like Montana and Eastern. Not sure the Big Sky would want them in, and don't think it would be an improvement over the WCC.

Zagdawg
01-13-2018, 03:07 PM
I think that might well be another reason the BE isn’t interested in expanding...10% of $5-$10 is better than 8.5% of that amount...many things would change if GU was in a conference like the BE...BUT what benefit does the BE get from expansion?

Big East expansion nets them another $100 million from their Fox contract.

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Daily/Issues/2013/03/21/Media/Big-East-MWC.aspx

Zags11
01-13-2018, 04:21 PM
They could do Div AA like Montana and Eastern. Not sure the Big Sky would want them in, and don't think it would be an improvement over the WCC.

Side note my aunts dad played football for gonzaga and won a Superbowl with the Giants.

willandi
01-13-2018, 05:16 PM
Side note my aunts dad played football for gonzaga and won a Superbowl with the Giants.

SWEET!

Zagger
01-13-2018, 07:25 PM
Oregon started a baseball program from scratch about a decade or so ago. Starting a football program from the ground up...that would be a serious undertaking. Scholarship limit for football is 85. You have to have some depth. I would think you would have to be out recruiting for 2-3 years before you could actually field a team. Tough sell for kids to come in and practice for a few years without being able to play games. Not to mention building a football stadium would be cost prohibitive. I'd say it's a pipe dream, not happening. Not that anyone associated w/ the school is actually talking about starting a football program are they?

GU has been expanding. Here's a Google Earth screenshot of the GU area in Spokane. McCarthey is indicated. The orange shaded area would be choice but questionable on whether it could be acquired. Across the Spokane River to the east is some fairly open ground (orange arrow). I'd like to think that if GU had a desire to go with a football program that they could pull it off. I think Spokane would be pretty friendly for it. Eastern Washington University out in Cheney has an exciting football program and draws quite a few Spokane fans out for games. Wazzu much further south draws Spokane fans too. Fun to ponder a GU FB program :)

http://www.fowlplaces.com/zags/FootballLand.png

Ekrub
01-13-2018, 10:06 PM
the problem is this..without a division 1 football program the Zags conference options are limited. I think for the size school the program is doing just fine and I wouldn't change a thing. They play enough good competition through the year to get ready for March Madness...I believe they have equaled or exceeded their NCAA tourney seeding 8 of the last 9 years...no need to change!

Adding a football team would be amazing.

MileHigh
01-14-2018, 05:37 AM
Has the administration ever talked about adding a football team? I'm sure it would be difficult and would take a long time to build up, but I would think it's doable if a small school like Whitworth can have one. That would give us the option of at least going to a conference like the MWC, which would be an upgrade over the WCC.

The cost would be prohibitive, mainly due to the fact that they would have to fund another 170 full ride scholarships. The 85 d1 football scholarships would have to be matched with 85 women's sport scholarships because of title 9. That would likely mean adding several additional women's sports. You would also have to build a stadium and a practice facility.

ZionZag
01-14-2018, 06:34 AM
Side note my aunts dad played football for gonzaga and won a Superbowl with the Giants.

I couldn't help myself.....wouldn't your aunts dad also be your mothers dad and therefore he'd be your grandfather. (maybe it's your STEP aunt...Darn traditional families). Who was this guy. I hope he was on the sidelines because I don't remember anyone that was 64 yo playing for the Giants in their first Super Bowl win in 1987...

Zagceo
01-14-2018, 07:12 AM
I couldn't help myself.....wouldn't your aunts dad also be your mothers dad and therefore he'd be your grandfather. (maybe it's your STEP aunt...Darn traditional families). Who was this guy. I hope he was on the sidelines because I don't remember anyone that was 64 yo playing for the Giants in their first Super Bowl win in 1987...

unless your Aunt was your Mother or Fathers sister in law

Might be easier to get all Pac 12 teams to give up football

kitzbuel
01-14-2018, 08:01 AM
I think that might well be another reason the BE isnít interested in expanding...10% of $5-$10 is better than 8.5% of that amount...many things would change if GU was in a conference like the BE...BUT what benefit does the BE get from expansion?The Big East would take Gonzaga in a heartbeat if it were even one time zone further east. Gonzaga fits squarely in the Big East philosophy and profile. Gonzaga membership would increase the value of the Big East basketball TV offering and that would help all the members; greater visibility, higher profile.

Location is the real problem. The Big East is still committed enough to it's core principles that it can't expand that far west and gerrymander its schedule. It learned it's lesson from the headlong expansion it tried with football that caused the conference to lose its identity.

There will have to be a lot of structural changes to set conditions for GU going to the Big East.

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kitzbuel
01-14-2018, 08:09 AM
I couldn't help myself.....wouldn't your aunts dad also be your mothers dad and therefore he'd be your grandfather. (maybe it's your STEP aunt...Darn traditional families). Who was this guy. I hope he was on the sidelines because I don't remember anyone that was 64 yo playing for the Giants in their first Super Bowl win in 1987...Ray Flaherty played for the 1934 World Champion NY Giants. One of two Zags in the Football Hall of Fame.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Flaherty


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ZionZag
01-14-2018, 08:48 AM
Ray Flaherty played for the 1934 World Champion NY Giants. One of two Zags in the Football Hall of Fame.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Flaherty


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Thanks Kitz..... I know all of that but that was no Super Bowl......I thought that's what he was referring to (1934) but as I indicated, I couldn't help my self...SORRY

DixieZag
01-14-2018, 09:43 AM
Not that we haven't had this discussion a million times, but when we look at conferences, we tend to start with geographical/competition fit, and thus we put out names like the MWC, SDSU, UNLV, New Mexico and the like.

But, the folks at Jesuit house who own the place look first at the type of school it is - not just at whether it is Jesuit and/or Catholic, but is it private versus public, is academics the first, last, and near every middle priority, things like that.

WE can see "wow, UNLV and SDSU would be a perfect fit for a road trip" and meanwhile the Jesuits would find it the most "unfitfull" gathering one could create.

There's no easy or even semi-manageable solution or the people who think about this for a living (and are extremely good at it) would've thought of it long ago.

The most obvious west coast academic profile are the Pac schools. There's no similar west coast catholic college conference available. There's the football issue which would be the deciding point for 95% of the other schools, and then there's the Big East, perfect, but for half a continent.

And so it goes. The only thing I've given up on is the hope that the other schools in the WCC will commit to raising the national profile. Even SMC, god bless them, has basically only invested in Randy. They haven't established a "D-1 Power" facilities or mindset.

So, on we go, same issues, never resolved because they're largely intractable.

willandi
01-14-2018, 09:55 AM
Not that we haven't had this discussion a million times, but when we look at conferences, we tend to start with geographical/competition fit, and thus we put out names like the MWC, SDSU, UNLV, New Mexico and the like.

But, the folks at Jesuit house who own the place look first at the type of school it is - not just at whether it is Jesuit and/or Catholic, but is it private versus public, is academics the first, last, and near every middle priority, things like that.

WE can see "wow, UNLV and SDSU would be a perfect fit for a road trip" and meanwhile the Jesuits would find it the most "unfitfull" gathering one could create.

There's no easy or even semi-manageable solution or the people who think about this for a living (and are extremely good at it) would've thought of it long ago.

The most obvious west coast academic profile are the Pac schools. There's no similar west coast catholic college conference available. There's the football issue which would be the deciding point for 95% of the other schools, and then there's the Big East, perfect, but for half a continent.

And so it goes. The only thing I've given up on is the hope that the other schools in the WCC will commit to raising the national profile. Even SMC, god bless them, has basically only invested in Randy. They haven't established a "D-1 Power" facilities or mindset.

So, on we go, same issues, never resolved because they're largely intractable.

Agreed. Hopefully a new WCC commish will at least attempt to raise the bar from the sediment on the bottom.

Birddog
01-14-2018, 10:22 AM
I used to be of the opinion that a rising tide floats all boats. Unfortunately, it appears the WCC has been in a neap tide for a while.

Birddog
01-14-2018, 10:26 AM
Ray Flaherty played for the 1934 World Champion NY Giants. One of two Zags in the Football Hall of Fame.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Flaherty


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I"m pretty sure Zags11 was not referring to Flaherty,. "Giants" is the key word , but it was pre Superbowl.

Zagceo
01-14-2018, 10:35 AM
WCC full of religious schools might show some forgiveness and offer a coach a second chance...say Malibu...LINK (https://nypost.com/2017/11/20/rick-pitino-is-already-imagining-his-coaching-return/)

Zags11
01-14-2018, 02:00 PM
unless your Aunt was your Mother or Fathers sister in law

Might be easier to get all Pac 12 teams to give up football

Its my moms sister in law.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Bellinger

Zags11
01-14-2018, 02:02 PM
Ray Flaherty played for the 1934 World Champion NY Giants. One of two Zags in the Football Hall of Fame.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Flaherty


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http://www.gozags.com/sports/c-hallfame/mtt/bellinger_bob00.html

Zags11
01-14-2018, 02:04 PM
Anyways sorry I was trying to provide a cool tidbit. My aunt is also a season ticket holder with my family as well. She has the football (small) they gave out hanging as her necklace now. I apologize as I don't know what they were called then. (What they got for winning title)

Zagsker
01-14-2018, 02:10 PM
Oregon started a baseball program from scratch about a decade or so ago. Starting a football program from the ground up...that would be a serious undertaking. Scholarship limit for football is 85. You have to have some depth. I would think you would have to be out recruiting for 2-3 years before you could actually field a team. Tough sell for kids to come in and practice for a few years without being able to play games. Not to mention building a football stadium would be cost prohibitive. I'd say it's a pipe dream, not happening. Not that anyone associated w/ the school is actually talking about starting a football program are they?

Would not have to necessarily build a football stadium...could utilize Joe Albi stadium for the first 5 or so years.

I have always thought a GU football program would be phenomenal in this area

A season of the following would be insane in this area

GU vs

EWU
IDAHO
MONTANA
MONTANA ST

And vice versa for those schools as well

You have some major regional games in a small geographical range

TexasZagFan
01-14-2018, 02:24 PM
Would not have to necessarily build a football stadium...could utilize Joe Albi stadium for the first 5 or so years.

I have always thought a GU football program would be phenomenal in this area

A season of the following would be insane in this area

GU vs

EWU
IDAHO
MONTANA
MONTANA ST

And vice versa for those schools as well

You have some major regional games in a small geographical range

You’d be lucky to get 10,000 fans in the seats for any of those games. High school games in Texas draw bigger crowds.

The two biggest negatives IMO against bringing back football:

1. Title 9.
2. CTE

kitzbuel
01-14-2018, 02:56 PM
WCC full of religious schools might show some forgiveness and offer a coach a second chance...say Malibu...LINK (https://nypost.com/2017/11/20/rick-pitino-is-already-imagining-his-coaching-return/)After the Eddie Sutton Experience I hope the WCC is done with rehabbed coaches.

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Zagsker
01-14-2018, 03:01 PM
You’d be lucky to get 10,000 fans in the seats for any of those games...

???

EWU regularly sells out games 10k...

GU vs EWU would be an easy 15-20k if not higher.


Same with UM, MSU...their fans travel.

IDAHO I would assume a trip up to Spokane would be a good Saturday get away

I could not care less about Texas HS football attendance as it relates to football in this area

509er
01-14-2018, 03:24 PM
???

EWU regularly sells out games 10k...

GU vs EWU would be an easy 15-20k if not higher.


Same with UM, MSU...their fans travel.

IDAHO I would assume a trip up to Spokane would be a good Saturday get away

I could not care less about Texas HS football attendance as it relates to football in this area

So GU should add football so they can get back in the Big Sky, a Conference they opted to leave 40 years ago?

Zagsker
01-14-2018, 03:57 PM
So GU should add football so they can get back in the Big Sky, a Conference they opted to leave 40 years ago?

I'm just hypothosizing...GU getting to a better bball conference trumps any dream regional football matchups I have

Zagger
01-15-2018, 02:42 AM
Maybe (????) .... start a whole new conference. I have no idea what that would entail or whether it is possible. Plus, if the Zags were in a new conference, say with west of the Mississippi schools, who’d be in it with GU? I’d surmise that a new conference would stir things up a bit as it would impact a fair number of other conferences. Guess I’m shooting this ‘idea’ in the foot (with a shotgun) already. Could the WCC add enough schools to split? Far fetched thoughts .....
I’m personally fine with GU being in the WCC. I like that a WCC school can make it to a NCAA title game. My only beefs with GU in the WCC and/or being in Spokane, is not being able to get more big name schools to play us in Spokane (or for a BIS). I personally see way too many negatives with being in a conference with schools having great distances between them.

Birddog
01-15-2018, 05:42 AM
This article appeared in my local paper yesterday. If you think the WCC is bad, read this, GU was a founding member.

As the bus rolls past mileage signs for places like Malad City, Arimo and Woodruff, the long frames of Northern Arizona's basketball players splay across the seats. Heads rest on makeshift pillows of jackets and backpacks, legs stretch across aisles, feet rise above headrests.
https://hosted.ap.org/standardspeaker/article/05fa466fa5b641ad8b567e00eb7df83a/travel-extra-grind-division-smallest-schools

TexasZagFan
01-15-2018, 07:28 AM
This article appeared in my local paper yesterday. If you think the WCC is bad, read this, GU was a founding member.

https://hosted.ap.org/standardspeaker/article/05fa466fa5b641ad8b567e00eb7df83a/travel-extra-grind-division-smallest-schools

Thanks for posting this article BD. There’s a better solution out there, but it’s not going to come from the NCAA, which is swimming in money. Perhaps a larger payout for one bid conferences on the first game.

Perhaps an NCAA sponsoring company that donates plane tickets to smaller conferences.

Then again, maybe some ADs and school administrators didn’t think it through during the last round of realignment/expansion.

Zagsker
01-15-2018, 09:15 AM
This article appeared in my local paper yesterday. If you think the WCC is bad, read this, GU was a founding member.

https://hosted.ap.org/standardspeaker/article/05fa466fa5b641ad8b567e00eb7df83a/travel-extra-grind-division-smallest-schools

Granted mine was for football, so far less bus travel, but I always enjoyed those trips. Particularly Missoula...play UM and generally be back in time to "hangout" that evening

Zagnificent
01-15-2018, 09:29 AM
WCC full of religious schools might show some forgiveness and offer a coach a second chance...say Malibu...LINK (https://nypost.com/2017/11/20/rick-pitino-is-already-imagining-his-coaching-return/)

Just think of the sort of debauchery Pitino could commit in Malibu. I hope they make a reality TV show out of it...

TexasZagFan
01-15-2018, 09:47 AM
Granted mine was for football, so far less bus travel, but I always enjoyed those trips. Particularly Missoula...play UM and generally be back in time to "hangout" that evening

I remember our rifle team road trips to Reno. Took off Friday after lunch, competition on Saturday, back to Spokane on Sunday. The more enterprising students actually did homework during the daylight hours. We stayed in the barracks of a nearby Guard unit. Thankfully, that was just once a year. Local competitions were held in Cheney, Moscow, and Pullman.

zagfan24
01-15-2018, 11:05 AM
I often wonder whether a move out of the WCC would really improve recruiting for Gonzaga.

I think the appeal of an extremely likely tournament bid is actually a very nice selling point, especially for some of the grad transfers.

While many HS players no doubt cite the conference as a weakness...I am just very curious as to whether that has actually been a legit tipping point for many great players. Seems very possible that even if the Pac-12 came calling; Seattle kids would still prefer UW, players from the southwest and Cali still have other strong options closer to home. If it was the Big East, it's still hard to see that many players trekking out to Spokane that wouldn't have already come this way otherwise.

GU has a lot of special things to offer, and I think that the Zags end up bringing in kids who are attracted to those specific things. I just don't know if a change of conference would really do much to affect that pattern. I could be way off base, and I think there are a lot of good reasons for GU to consider moving along from the WCC. But, given their recruiting pattern, or lack thereof (international + kids from 10 different states on this year's roster), I personally don't feel convinced that a move up in conference affiliation wouldn't result in a net neutral recruiting impact.

Zagdawg
01-15-2018, 11:29 AM
Hmmm ...... WCC or PAC12/Big East -- this has been pointed out by multiple recruits as the primary reason they chose the other program.

The Zags have developed the international pipeline to help with the lack of influx of top US talent --and it has worked to offset the challenge so far.

Change of conference would mean more conference bids -- which would equate to more opportunities to get to the dance-- if all you need to do is finish in the top half of your conference to make the dance (Pac12/BigE) -- the Zags would not be missing any dance trips in the near future.

zagfan24
01-15-2018, 11:50 AM
Hmmm ...... WCC or PAC12/Big East -- this has been pointed out by multiple recruits as the primary reason they chose the other program.

The Zags have developed the international pipeline to help with the influx of top US talent --and it has worked to offset the challenge so far.

Change of conference would mean more conference bids -- which would equate to more opportunities to get to the dance-- if all you need to do is finish in the top half of your conference to make the dance (Pac12/BigE) -- the Zags would not be missing any dance trips in the near future.

I guess my point was that if GU were to move, it's not like we would be switching places with Arizona or Washington or Villanova or Marquette. Pac-12 vs WCC just changes to Pac-12 vs Pac-12 or Big East vs Big East. So I don't know if that would truly have changed the calculus enough for program-changing recruits. It's entirely possible that it would have...I just don't know for sure.

Without being too nauseatingly positive about GU, I also think that the program tends to attract players who value collective achievement in addition to individual achievement, which slightly reduces the impact of the conference affiliation. In addition, I honestly think the Zags get plenty of media exposure as it is. They have their brand and it's a positive one. That might change in ways both positive and negative with a move up in conference.

Finally, I respectfully disagree that the Zags wouldn't be at risk of missing any trips to the dance. There have been at least two teams in the past decade or so that have had a bid at risk entering the conference tourney, and all it takes is an early departure or two, an injury or two, and/or a recruiting whiff or two to put any team in a precarious position. The WCC isn't perfect and I have found the first slate of games this year awfully hard to fully enjoy, but IMO there have been clearly years where it has helped ensure a bid.

Bogozags
01-15-2018, 12:29 PM
This article appeared in my local paper yesterday. If you think the WCC is bad, read this, GU was a founding member.

https://hosted.ap.org/standardspeaker/article/05fa466fa5b641ad8b567e00eb7df83a/travel-extra-grind-division-smallest-schools

I can remember traveling with UNC-Charlotte's Women's Basketball Team...we traveled by 15pax vans to games while the men flew...always wondered what happened to Title IX...we were given a bus to drive to WKU, USA or ODU...those were a 12-14 hour rides depending on traffic and weather...I can imagine that in the olden days of WCAC, GU did a lot of bus trips...needless to say, I don't like bus trips...

strikenowhere
01-15-2018, 12:32 PM
I can remember traveling with UNC-Charlotte's Women's Basketball Team...we traveled by 15pax vans to games while the men flew...always wondered what happened to Title IX...we were given a bus to drive to WKU, USA or ODU...those were a 12-14 hour rides depending on traffic and weather...I can imagine that in the olden days of WCAC, GU did a lot of bus trips...needless to say, I don't like bus trips...

After Title IX wouldn't the funding for the improved travel be provided by donors?

Bogozags
01-15-2018, 12:37 PM
After Title IX wouldn't the funding for the improved travel be provided by donors?

If it did, we didn't see any of that money...we stopped and ate at Wendy's or McDonalds...

Here is another tidbit...ODU, WKU, USA all had 15 full rides...we had 7 full rides for 15 women...

Things have changed since the mid-80's but it was at times pretty tough...guess it made me stronger or at least my arms having to load and unload the vans...

Zagdawg
01-15-2018, 12:38 PM
With the new conference our average 3-4 star recruits become average 4-5 star recruits and this keeps us from finishing below the middle of the new conference.

The new conference with 5-6 dance bids give the Zags much more residual dance money and much more television money leading to improved facilities/recruiting budgets/salaries for staff etc.

I think the horse has been beat many times over-- it is all up to what the Zag program want to do in the long term for the program with the direction college athletics is moving.

Zagsker
01-15-2018, 12:48 PM
I often wonder whether a move out of the WCC would really improve recruiting for Gonzaga.

I think the appeal of an extremely likely tournament bid is actually a very nice selling point, especially for some of the grad transfers.

While many HS players no doubt cite the conference as a weakness...I am just very curious as to whether that has actually been a legit tipping point for many great players. Seems very possible that even if the Pac-12 came calling; Seattle kids would still prefer UW, players from the southwest and Cali still have other strong options closer to home. If it was the Big East, it's still hard to see that many players trekking out to Spokane that wouldn't have already come this way otherwise.

GU has a lot of special things to offer, and I think that the Zags end up bringing in kids who are attracted to those specific things. I just don't know if a change of conference would really do much to affect that pattern. I could be way off base, and I think there are a lot of good reasons for GU to consider moving along from the WCC. But, given their recruiting pattern, or lack thereof (international + kids from 10 different states on this year's roster), I personally don't feel convinced that a move up in conference affiliation wouldn't result in a net neutral recruiting impact.

I don't think moving to a better conference would necessarily improve our recruiting...what I fear is the following:

At some point GU is going to miss the dance, perceptually that could trigger a "looks like their run is over" train of thought in potential recruits...less talented recruits come in because why play in the WCC when a trip to the dance isn't as "garaunteed" then it once was and instead go play in conf X and play better competition with just as likely result to go the dance.

GU in a down year in the WCC is less likely to make the dance as opposed to a down year in the BE, where RPI is more likely to be better

DixieZag
01-15-2018, 12:51 PM
I often wonder whether a move out of the WCC would really improve recruiting for Gonzaga.

I think the appeal of an extremely likely tournament bid is actually a very nice selling point, especially for some of the grad transfers.

While many HS players no doubt cite the conference as a weakness...I am just very curious as to whether that has actually been a legit tipping point for many great players. Seems very possible that even if the Pac-12 came calling; Seattle kids would still prefer UW, players from the southwest and Cali still have other strong options closer to home. If it was the Big East, it's still hard to see that many players trekking out to Spokane that wouldn't have already come this way otherwise.

GU has a lot of special things to offer, and I think that the Zags end up bringing in kids who are attracted to those specific things. I just don't know if a change of conference would really do much to affect that pattern. I could be way off base, and I think there are a lot of good reasons for GU to consider moving along from the WCC. But, given their recruiting pattern, or lack thereof (international + kids from 10 different states on this year's roster), I personally don't feel convinced that a move up in conference affiliation wouldn't result in a net neutral recruiting impact.

As per usual, some great thoughts clearly stated, going against conventional wisdom.

We're foolish to not consider the fact that even if someone placed us into the Pac-12 for basketball, there are some kids that are going to walk onto the UCLA campus in January wearing shorts and flip flops, hanging out at certain sororities, and won't even remember Mark Few's name on the Text saying "No, thanks, coach."

And it's not like we can say they made a "bad" decision.

There are certain hard realities baked-in to our situation, and we shouldn't day dream them away.

strikenowhere
01-15-2018, 12:52 PM
I don't think moving to a better conference would necessarily improve our recruiting...what I fear is the following:

At some point GU is going to miss the dance, perceptually that could trigger a "looks like their run is over" train of thought in potential recruits...less talented recruits come in because why play in the WCC when a trip to the dance isn't as "garaunteed" then it once was and instead go play in conf X and play better competition with just as likely result to go the dance.

GU in a down year in the WCC is less likely to make the dance as opposed to a down year in the BE, where RPI is more likely to be better

Or when Few steps down (and Lloyd isn't waiting in the wings anymore due to moving on)

Zagsker
01-15-2018, 02:12 PM
Or when Few steps down (and Lloyd isn't waiting in the wings anymore due to moving on)

Yup

This gravy train is not going to last forever...GU needs to take advantage ASAP and position itself in a more "down year friendly conference" to sustain them in between lean years...otherwise GU is going to become San Francisco

sittingon50
01-15-2018, 02:47 PM
Just think of the sort of debauchery Pitino could commit in Malibu. I hope they make a reality TV show out of it...

:roll::clap::roll:

titopoet
01-15-2018, 03:01 PM
Imagine if Tillie grew 10 inches and added 60 pounds of muscles by Thursday without losing any of his athletic ability. No way would Saint Mary have a chance. In fact, we would be number one in the country. Why doesn't GU make that happen?

Or why not make the sky turn from blue to orange because it is a nicer color. Why doesn't GU make that happen?

Or why doesn't GU in join a better league than the WCC?

Of course, all three are impossible in Today's current NCAA. No adding a football program would make the PAC-12 want to add GU. The Pac-12 as a league of big State Schools will not add GU. Heck BYU with much larger budget and an established football program and the school has been rebuffed countless times by the PAC-12.

No other conference geographically fits the needs of Zags basketball. MW is more of a lateral move (WCC has had as many two
bids as the WCC since the last prefigurement of leagues that brought BYU into the WCC)
GU has been active in trying to get into the Big East, but geography has been the biggest deterrent and they don't have the votes to join.

Yes, Gonzaga was outgrown the WCC, but what to do? No conference fits them. Also, this idea of the WCC just riding the coattails of WCC misses the reality/ The shadow of GU actually makes winning for the other programs besides Saint Mary or BYU a lot harder. Like Jeff Eisenberg documented the struggles, the three make it hard to recruit, win and get to the NCAA for the rest of the league. https://sports.yahoo.com/news/west-coast-bias-why-the-wcc-has-become-a-career-killer-for-coaches-205029165.html

If a coach has little to no shot at getting to the NCAA and the fact that everyone knows it, makes it tough to recruit and get players to buy in for 3-4 years in a building process. Looking at a good Dons team that if they were in the Big West, could be in the mix for an NCAA bid and with a little luck could pull an upset or two in the tourney, but being in the WCC with GU (especially), the Gaels and BYU means fighting for a CIT or CBI bid (even the NIT is out of question).

Tillie will not grow as I described, The sky will remain blue and GU will stay in the WCC for now. That is the reality of the world.

Zagsker
01-15-2018, 03:10 PM
... MW is more of a lateral move

It may be factually (at times), however I contend perceptually in the national stage it would not be...even in years when the WCC has been solid, perception has been it is not...and right or wrong, perception is reality

titopoet
01-15-2018, 03:25 PM
It may be factually (at times), however I contend perceptually in the national stage it would not be...even in years when the WCC has been solid, perception has been it is not...and right or wrong, perception is reality

The latest bracketology, WCC has two bids and MW only one. Last year, the same. In fact, I think that in the next few years that trend will continue. To move and upend the WCC should be based on reality and not the whims of fans. MW is really not an option unless it comes with all three, but BYU left the MW and it really has not been the same since. GU, BYU and Saint Mary form a trifiecta that MW may have match a couple of years ago, but right now... nope.

All Weather Fan
01-15-2018, 03:29 PM
titopoet with the voice of reason ! Tillie growing 10 inches may be the likeliest possibilty of the two !

dhozagfan08
01-15-2018, 03:30 PM
The latest bracketology, WCC has two bids and MW only one. Last year, the same. In fact, I think that in the next few years that trend will continue. To move and upend the WCC should be based on reality and not the whims of fans. MW is really not an option unless it comes with all three, but BYU left the MW and it really has not been the same since. GU, BYU and Saint Mary form a trifiecta that MW may have match a couple of years ago, but right now... nope.

Conference rankings this year have the WCC lower than MWC, and that's with us in the league. It's not just about the number of tourney teams, though. Take Gu out of the equation, and I bet the MWC is overall stronger than the wcc 9 times out of ten. Which means it would be easier to improve our tournament resume and readiness each year.

willandi
01-15-2018, 04:47 PM
Conference rankings this year have the WCC lower than MWC, and that's with us in the league. It's not just about the number of tourney teams, though. Take Gu out of the equation, and I bet the MWC is overall stronger than the wcc 9 times out of ten. Which means it would be easier to improve our tournament resume and readiness each year.

Another thread has WCC higher than the MWC in 2 different places.

What IS a realistic option is to add 2 more schools and go to a north/south (or whatever you want to call it) to add more OCC games, 5 home and home in division and 3 away/3 home in the other division.

Also would help if the next commish stresses using the tournament money to improving BBall programs and facilities, and not just by paying the same coaches more money. It really seems that facilities are one of the weak points. I don't know why Pepp doesn't draw more talent. One the other hand, San Diago has the slim gym and still often struggles.

titopoet
01-16-2018, 08:01 AM
Conference rankings this year have the WCC lower than MWC, and that's with us in the league. It's not just about the number of tourney teams, though. Take Gu out of the equation, and I bet the MWC is overall stronger than the wcc 9 times out of ten. Which means it would be easier to improve our tournament resume and readiness each year.

MW is in decline and yes GU would a shot in the arm for the conference, but GU gets nothing from it. If the Zags started to dominate it like it does the WCC (certainly not out of the question) then the bottom teams will start looking like the WCC (GU hurts other league team's recruiting.) So the two outcomes are GU joins the rest of MW and start to miss the NCAA tournament in down years or it turns the MW into a version of the WCC. Neither answer the question of outgrowing the WCC as it is also has outgrown a conference like the MW.

By the way, what is the upcoming MW game that the country will be paying attention too? I don't think it will happen until the MW championship game. Meanwhile, the Saint Mary vs GU will be featured on national TV and be written about on all the major sports media. It will probably get more coverage than the whole of the MW will get for the conference season. Same for the other encounter with the Gaels and the two encounters with BYU. The MW will be again a one-bid league (though it probably deserves more). If GU had a chance to join the big east or a power 5 then it would make sense, but anything else makes zero sense. By the way, the top team in the MW (Nevada) could not handle the fifth best team in the WCC (Dons) on a neutral court what makes you think they would help GU get ready for the NCAAs?

Dorsai62
01-16-2018, 09:09 AM
MW is in decline and yes GU would a shot in the arm for the conference, but GU gets nothing from it. If the Zags started to dominate it like it does the WCC (certainly not out of the question) then the bottom teams will start looking like the WCC (GU hurts other league team's recruiting.) So the two outcomes are GU joins the rest of MW and start to miss the NCAA tournament in down years or it turns the MW into a version of the WCC. Neither answer the question of outgrowing the WCC as it is also has outgrown a conference like the MW.

By the way, what is the upcoming MW game that the country will be paying attention too? I don't think it will happen until the MW championship game. Meanwhile, the Saint Mary vs GU will be featured on national TV and be written about on all the major sports media. It will probably get more coverage than the whole of the MW will get for the conference season. Same for the other encounter with the Gaels and the two encounters with BYU. The MW will be again a one-bid league (though it probably deserves more). If GU had a chance to join the big east or a power 5 then it would make sense, but anything else makes zero sense. By the way, the top team in the MW (Nevada) could not handle the fifth best team in the WCC (Dons) on a neutral court what makes you think they would help GU get ready for the NCAAs?

We've discussed conference changes ad naseum. Suppose for discussion that the Zags prioritize a minimum of 4 PAC 12 games per OOC, home and home preferably and see what flies?

realtydog
01-16-2018, 10:02 AM
We've discussed conference changes ad naseum. Suppose for discussion that the Zags prioritize a minimum of 4 PAC 12 games per OOC, home and home preferably and see what flies?

yeah.....some sense enters the discussion -----there will NEVER be a Pac-12 invite -----we will Never join a conference that has us flying to the east coast for two months ----the Mountain West will NEVER add us as a "basketball only" option

it is the WCC ---for better or worse----talk of any other option is a waste of time----even our AD knows that we have no real options

titopoet
01-16-2018, 10:18 AM
yeah.....some sense enters the discussion -----there will NEVER be a Pac-12 invite -----we will Never join a conference that has us flying to the east coast for two months ----the Mountain West will NEVER add us as a "basketball only" option

it is the WCC ---for better or worse----talk of any other option is a waste of time----even our AD knows that we have no real options

That was my point. Though it would be awesome if Tille grew to 7'6" with 50 lbs of muscle without losing his skills or athelte ability. Cool but it is not going to happen.