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cggonzaga
01-07-2018, 04:14 AM
A&M and NC lost twice. Kentucky, Miami, TCU and Arizona lost. Cincinnati just escaped Temple and plays a good SMU team today. I think we jump A&M, NC, Kentucky and Cincinnati and will be ranked 15th this week.

jazzdelmar
01-07-2018, 04:20 AM
So you really think we are better than those teams for having beaten the garbage we beat? I know itís vintage GU math but this year itís embarrassing.



A&M and NC lost twice. Kentucky, Miami, TCU and Arizona lost. Cincinnati just escaped Temple and plays a good SMU team today. I think we jump A&M, NC, Kentucky and Cincinnati and will be ranked 15th this week.

Bogozags
01-07-2018, 04:38 AM
Jazz
I don’t think we are better than those teams but it is the way the system works...from watching the Duke, UNC, and Villanova teams yesterday I do not see one GU player who could start on any of those teams! Zach and CK might get into their rotation...imo

IMO over the past few years, I never saw one WCC player that could start for GU but this year SMC has two and have not looked at all the schools...

Oh, Inthink GU will be ranked 14 or 15

TexasZagFan
01-07-2018, 05:41 AM
So you really think we are better than those teams for having beaten the garbage we beat? I know it’s vintage GU math but this year it’s embarrassing.

It is embarrassing...LMU couldn’t pack the house last night. They gave the Zags everything they had, but there were probably just as many Zag fans there as Lion fans.

Zags11
01-07-2018, 05:42 AM
Zags #17

gueastcoast
01-07-2018, 06:18 AM
I don't know, some of you may be watching different games than I am seeing...just to take one example, I think a number of our guys would get considerable run if playing for UNC, and potentially start. That team looks pretty disjointed to me. Can't blame our guys for who they have to play.

thespywhozaggedme
01-07-2018, 06:25 AM
So you really think we are better than those teams for having beaten the garbage we beat? I know it’s vintage GU math but this year it’s embarrassing.

Where did he say he thought we were better than those teams? Seriously, where did he say that? He didn't, and you know he didn"t. So what exactly was the point of your post, because iit had absolutely nothing to do with the thread topic.

thespywhozaggedme
01-07-2018, 06:26 AM
A&M and NC lost twice. Kentucky, Miami, TCU and Arizona lost. Cincinnati just escaped Temple and plays a good SMU team today. I think we jump A&M, NC, Kentucky and Cincinnati and will be ranked 15th this week.

We should get a nice little bump; I'm guessing 14th or 15th.

bartruff1
01-07-2018, 08:19 AM
It is the WCC Effect......the past is prolog....playing in the WCC gives Gonzaga a huge rating advantage.....I think the broadcast crew pointed out that Gonzaga has had 6 #3 seeds or better in the last 20 years....

MontanaCoyote
01-07-2018, 09:18 AM
We were in the WCC last season, we were ranked #1 and we were better than all but one other team.

Reborn
01-07-2018, 09:38 AM
We were in the WCC last season, we were ranked #1 and we were better than all but one other team.

I agree. It's obvious that playing in the WCC has not hurt Gonzaga in the NCAA Tournament. I'd say we may have one of the top ten best NCAA records in all of college basketball. Maybe even top 5. I'm not one who bashes the WCC, and I think along the same lines as Mark Few when he says he believes that winning the conference is a big deal to him, a very big deal.

Go Zags!!!

WallaWallaZag
01-07-2018, 10:51 AM
I agree. It's obvious that playing in the WCC has not hurt Gonzaga in the NCAA Tournament. I'd say we may have one of the top ten best NCAA records in all of college basketball. Maybe even top 5. I'm not one who bashes the WCC, and I think along the same lines as Mark Few when he says he believes that winning the conference is a big deal to him, a very big deal.

Go Zags!!!

definitely not if you go by straight wins and losses...maybe if you go by performance according to seed, though i'm not sure who might track that...

Kiddwell
01-07-2018, 11:05 AM
From 19th to 16th would be nice. Slow, steady upward trend.


:]

cggonzaga
01-07-2018, 11:19 AM
So you really think we are better than those teams for having beaten the garbage we beat? I know it’s vintage GU math but this year it’s embarrassing.

In regards to the WCC, is this year different from any other? (Other than you not liking our team?)

Zagdawg
01-07-2018, 02:38 PM
You gotta play who is in front of you each night--- as long as the Zags take care of business each night --things will continue to move in the right direction.

Don't think that we are better than every top ranked team in the field--but on any given night someone can slip up and get beat-- as we have seen from the recent games across college basketball.

TexasZagFan
01-07-2018, 02:49 PM
Based on the churn we’ve seen in the weekly rankings, I don’t think I’m out on a ledge when I say “March will bring Madness to our lives.”

cggonzaga
01-07-2018, 02:54 PM
Based on the churn we’ve seen in the weekly rankings, I don’t think I’m out on a ledge when I say “March will bring Madness to our lives.”

Yeah, doesn’t seem to be any dominant teams.

TexasZagFan
01-07-2018, 03:04 PM
Yeah, doesn’t seem to be any dominant teams.

There will be a new #1 on tomorrow, unless the Buckeyes blow a
20+ point lead.

Section 116
01-07-2018, 03:13 PM
Assuming OSU holds on, Villanova, West Virginia, Virginia, Wichita St and then what?

jazzdelmar
01-07-2018, 03:31 PM
Shockers look like the best talent and the best coach in the country. And to think we gave them their start.

MDABE80
01-07-2018, 03:34 PM
Since our opponents have been so weak the past few games, if we move up ( I think we will) it'll be because of two things:1. we didn't lose and 2. the teams ahead of us lost plenty. I doubt either Duke or MSU will drop to our level because of 2 losses. Scribes believe in them and indeed they're pretty sensational.
Our real tests will be San Diego, BYU and SMC. All very good teams. Until we meet them we're likely to stays close to where we are just up a few spots. If we win those 6 games with good play,, we'll be top 10. It's the same every year. On the other hand if those teams ahead us go on losing streaks......we'll move up significantly if we win games.

And Jazz is correct. WSU looks like an easy top 5 team. Lotsa talent there. They play well together.

titopoet
01-08-2018, 05:37 AM
So you really think we are better than those teams for having beaten the garbage we beat? I know itís vintage GU math but this year itís embarrassing.

Yep. Many of the same teams beat lesser teams earlier in the season and now are being exposed as they go on the road to face tougher competition. I go with Kenpom, and the rest of the Stat driven rankings and say GU is top ten team. Here is a pridiction you may not like the Zags go fatther than WSU in March. Hate to shock you, but Cincinnati is a better team then WSU and will win the AAC.

Bogozags
01-08-2018, 05:39 AM
Assuming OSU holds on, Villanova, West Virginia, Virginia, Wichita St and then what?


AP
Villanova
WVU
Virginia
MSU
Duke

WSU
X
OU
P
TTU

ASU
KU
UA
UM
TCU

Cinn
GU
SHU
TA&M
UNC

Clem
UK
UT
FSU
Creighton

Birddog
01-08-2018, 06:45 AM
Shockers look like the best talent and the best coach in the country. And to think we gave them their start.

They looked pretty ordinary when OU beat them in Wichita.

TexasZagFan
01-08-2018, 06:55 AM
Yep. Many of the same teams beat lesser teams earlier in the season and now are being exposed as they go on the road to face tougher competition. I go with Kenpom, and the rest of the Stat driven rankings and say GU is top ten team. Here is a pridiction you may not like the Zags go fatther than WSU in March. Hate to shock you, but Cincinnati is a better team then WSU and will win the AAC.

Cincy whupped a good SMU team by 20 yesterday.

rennis
01-08-2018, 07:25 AM
Jazz
I don’t think we are better than those teams but it is the way the system works...from watching the Duke, UNC, and Villanova teams yesterday I do not see one GU player who could start on any of those teams! Zach and CK might get into their rotation...imo


We definitely have players who would start for those teams. Actually I think we have bench players who would start or be the 6th man on most of the top 20 teams in the country. (Rui)

I agree the players and team overall this year leave you scratching your head at times but they aren't chopped liver. They dominated Ohio State who just dismantled the #1 team in the Nation. All is not lost.

I'm guessing #16

gueastcoast
01-08-2018, 08:26 AM
We definitely have players who would start for those teams. Actually I think we have bench players who would start or be the 6th man on most of the top 20 teams in the country. (Rui)

I agree the players and team overall this year leave you scratching your head at times but they aren't chopped liver. They dominated Ohio State who just dismantled the #1 team in the Nation. All is not lost.

I'm guessing #16

Agree 100%...again, not sure what games folks are watching. Not seeing many (any) consistent world-beaters in the broader landscape this year.

vandalzag
01-08-2018, 08:28 AM
They looked pretty ordinary when OU beat them in Wichita.

Best wins for them were Notre Dame and Houston. 2 quality wins. Maybe chance for a couple more against the Bearcats. Good team but would not put them in the category of Nova.

thespywhozaggedme
01-08-2018, 09:29 AM
We moved up four spots to #15:

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/rankings/_/year/2018/poll/1

ZagsObserver
01-08-2018, 09:35 AM
That was generous

jazzdelmar
01-08-2018, 09:42 AM
That was generous

The Bucks win helped that a lot.

kitzbuel
01-08-2018, 09:43 AM
So you really think we are better than those teams for having beaten the garbage we beat? I know itís vintage GU math but this year itís embarrassing.I seriously think GU hangs with UNC. I watched a chunk of their loss to Virginia, they were completely baited into playing UVa's game and could not compete.

GU would probably not do much better at UVa, but wouldn't do worse.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

bartruff1
01-08-2018, 09:43 AM
A yuge advantage of being in the WCC....next week...Texas Tech....Oklahoma.....Xavier.....and Arizona State are likely to lose while Gonzaga is likely to beat....Portland and San Francisco....no one ever said life was fair...

gonstu
01-08-2018, 09:47 AM
Not being mentioned regarding rankings though:

In WCC more likely to rack up the wins so advantage yes. BUT - the losses hurt much much more than a loss in a P5 conference, also with no opportunity to make up for those losses really due to lack of big names left on schedule (SMC is not a big name). A P5 team loses to a decent other P5 team and doesn't get penalized as much or has other big opportunities on the horizon. If zags slip up in conference, harsher consequences from the voters. Not saying shouldn't be this way, just pointing it's not all advantage re rankings being in the wcc.

bartruff1
01-08-2018, 09:54 AM
Obviously....if the reward is great....so is the risk....I like Gonzaga's chances ...

gueastcoast
01-08-2018, 09:57 AM
Not being mentioned regarding rankings though:

In WCC more likely to rack up the wins so advantage yes. BUT - the losses hurt much much more than a loss in a P5 conference, also with no opportunity to make up for those losses really due to lack of big names left on schedule (SMC is not a big name). A P5 team loses to a decent other P5 team and doesn't get penalized as much or has other big opportunities on the horizon. If zags slip up in conference, harsher consequences from the voters. Not saying shouldn't be this way, just pointing it's not all advantage re rankings being in the wcc.

Put differently, we have a high probability of not-so-good wins balanced against a low probability of bad losses...they offset in our "expected value"

bartruff1
01-08-2018, 09:59 AM
The rankings are all about not losing.....

jazzdelmar
01-08-2018, 10:04 AM
A yuge advantage of being in the WCC....next week...Texas Tech....Oklahoma.....Xavier.....and Arizona State are likely to lose while Gonzaga is likely to beat....Portland and San Francisco....no one ever said life was fair...

But it's fool's gold, Bart. And you know it. Maybe makes for somewhat loftier seed but raises expectations way high, leading to inevitable crash. But I guess you're used to that.

jazzdelmar
01-08-2018, 10:06 AM
Put differently, we have a high probability of not-so-good wins balanced against a low probability of bad losses...they offset in our "expected value"

Raging Rationalization Running Rampant......(per old Sporting News headline style)

bartruff1
01-08-2018, 10:14 AM
But it's fool's gold, Bart. And you know it. Maybe makes for somewhat loftier seed but raises expectations way high, leading to inevitable crash. But I guess you're used to that.

Yes I am...doesn't bother me at all....I am still amazed at last year.....they had a lot of luck, but they were every bit as good as NC.... unfortunately ....... for whatever reason...... Shem had a very poor scoring game...

gueastcoast
01-08-2018, 10:15 AM
Raging Rationalization Running Rampant......(per old Sporting News headline style)

Is that somehow related to Nattering Nabobs of Negativism? :)

Which, now that I think about it, aptly describes the denizens of the GUB on many a day...

jazzdelmar
01-08-2018, 10:17 AM
Yes I am...doesn't bother me at all....I am still amazed at last year.....they had a lot of luck, but they were every bit as good as NC.... unfortunately ....... for whatever reason...... Shem had a very poor scoring game...

Hold on, Barty. Last year they did get a good draw and so some luck but they had arguably the best talent in the country. They deserved their lofty seed. And yes, Shem killed us......

jazzdelmar
01-08-2018, 10:19 AM
Is that somehow related to Nattering Nabobs of Negativism? :)

Which, now that I think about it, aptly describes the denizens of the GUB on many a day...

Naa. that was Spiro. Eons ago, the old print Sporting News featured some headlines that were likely inspired by Variety. Such as:

MADLOCK HAS PADLOCK ON NL BAT TITLE
PITCHING THEIR PORK IN PIGSKIN PRESSURE PITS
ADROIT IN DETROT...

You get the picture.... :)

titopoet
01-08-2018, 10:27 AM
Best wins for them were Notre Dame and Houston. 2 quality wins. Maybe chance for a couple more against the Bearcats. Good team but would not put them in the category of Nova.

They lost to Notre Dame. Ok State and Baylor are their best wins.

bartruff1
01-08-2018, 10:34 AM
Hold on, Barty. Last year they did get a good draw and so some luck but they had arguably the best talent in the country. They deserved their lofty seed. And yes, Shem killed us......

I am just a old jock sniffer as Mile pointed out ....not that there is anything wrong with that.....I have no idea who had the best talent or who was the best team.....my default opinion is that Gonzaga is always over rated .....that if they played in the Power Five or the Big East they would be mid pack at best....the road games in those leagues are brutal...

jazzdelmar
01-08-2018, 10:36 AM
I am just a old jock sniffer as Mile pointed out ....not that there is anything wrong with that.....I have no idea who had the best talent or who was the best team.....my default opinion is that Gonzaga is always over rated .....

I 2d that emotion....

seacatfan
01-08-2018, 10:38 AM
A yuge advantage of being in the WCC....next week...Texas Tech....Oklahoma.....Xavier.....and Arizona State are likely to lose while Gonzaga is likely to beat....Portland and San Francisco....no one ever said life was fair...

Arizona State is hosting the Oregon schools this week. I'd say ASU is very likely to win both games. I have no idea about the upcoming schedules for the other 3 teams.

Zags11
01-08-2018, 11:11 AM
Hold on, Barty. Last year they did get a good draw and so some luck but they had arguably the best talent in the country. They deserved their lofty seed. And yes, Shem killed us......

Shem suffered a eye injury and they didn't bring a optometrist to final 4 a birdie told me. Huge mess up.

Hooray4Daye&Gray
01-08-2018, 11:45 AM
Shem suffered a eye injury and they didn't bring a optometrist to final 4 a birdie told me. Huge mess up.

I live in Phoenix and can confirm:

There are optometrists in Phoenix. Some are even open on Sundays.

If no one looked at his eye between the South Carolina game and the UNC game, it seems like the huge mess up was something other than not bringing an optometrist with them to Phoenix.

allbusiness_zag
01-08-2018, 11:51 AM
So you really think we are better than those teams for having beaten the garbage we beat? I know itís vintage GU math but this year itís embarrassing.

*Looks at new rankings*

https://media1.giphy.com/media/xT5LMXZ0EdpfB60pj2/giphy.gif

Hoopaholic
01-08-2018, 11:58 AM
Hold on, Barty. Last year they did get a good draw and so some luck but they had arguably the best talent in the country. They deserved their lofty seed. And yes, Shem killed us......

selective memory much when it comes to blame?

NWG shot 29% from the floor (28% from 2 point land) on 5-17 shooting and only 50% from free throw line (shem was 7-9)

Collins had 4 turnovers in only 14 minutes of play time

maybe they "killed" us too? or do you discount those sub par performances as having impact on our ability to win the game?

Zagceo
01-08-2018, 12:06 PM
I live in Phoenix and can confirm:

There are optometrists in Phoenix. Some are even open on Sundays.

If no one looked at his eye between the South Carolina game and the UNC game, it seems like the huge mess up was something other than not bringing an optometrist with them to Phoenix.

Can confirm drove by a few on the way to the game.

TexasZagFan
01-08-2018, 12:13 PM
selective memory much when it comes to blame?

NWG shot 29% from the floor (28% from 2 point land) on 5-17 shooting and only 50% from free throw line (shem was 7-9)

Collins had 4 turnovers in only 14 minutes of play time

maybe they "killed" us too? or do you discount those sub par performances as having impact on our ability to win the game?

You win as a team, you lose as a team. Nigel's 4-8 from the charity stripe is the one that still befuddles me.

This was a game where playing in the WCC was a factor. We just didn't have enough experience playing bigger, more athletic teams than UNC. The teardrops that Nigel could shoot at ease in conference play were not to be found against UNC.

Zagceo
01-08-2018, 12:27 PM
selective memory much when it comes to blame?

NWG shot 29% from the floor (28% from 2 point land) on 5-17 shooting and only 50% from free throw line (shem was 7-9)

Collins had 4 turnovers in only 14 minutes of play time

maybe they "killed" us too? or do you discount those sub par performances as having impact on our ability to win the game?

Defense was physical and had impact on both sides performances.

Nigel played 39 min and committed 2 turnovers in a game Coach Few called extremely physical a battle between 2 heavyweights...

I have no problem with you being critical of Nigel...its OK to have different opinions.

Zags11
01-08-2018, 12:30 PM
I live in Phoenix and can confirm:

There are optometrists in Phoenix. Some are even open on Sundays.

If no one looked at his eye between the South Carolina game and the UNC game, it seems like the huge mess up was something other than not bringing an optometrist with them to Phoenix.

It was. It was something that was not asked either. I can't say how I know unfortunately as I'm not gonna lose a close source. Just know Shem had a injury.

Zagceo
01-08-2018, 12:38 PM
It was. It was something that was not asked either. I can't say how I know unfortunately as I'm not gonna lose a close source. Just know Shem had a injury.

better check your source

18:22 PK says he saw eye doctor in the lockeroom


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAtUxxHhfrs

vandalzag
01-08-2018, 12:45 PM
better check your source

18:22 PK says he saw eye doctor in the lockeroom


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAtUxxHhfrs

Either way it was obvious he was not whole for the game. And with Collins in foul trouble options were limited. Team loss. Impossible to point on one player.

vandalzag
01-08-2018, 12:48 PM
They lost to Notre Dame. Ok State and Baylor are their best wins.

Good call misread RealtimeRpi (They show Marquette and Houston as the 2 quality wins) Either way hard to declare them the best team.

Kiddwell
01-08-2018, 12:48 PM
Saint Mary's at #30. Gotta get them back in the Top 25.



:]

Mantua
01-08-2018, 12:57 PM
Not being mentioned regarding rankings though:

In WCC more likely to rack up the wins so advantage yes. BUT - the losses hurt much much more than a loss in a P5 conference, also with no opportunity to make up for those losses really due to lack of big names left on schedule (SMC is not a big name). A P5 team loses to a decent other P5 team and doesn't get penalized as much or has other big opportunities on the horizon. If zags slip up in conference, harsher consequences from the voters. Not saying shouldn't be this way, just pointing it's not all advantage re rankings being in the wcc.

SMC won games last week and was dropped off the top 25.

gonstu
01-08-2018, 01:00 PM
SMC won games last week and was dropped off the top 25.

ouch

vandalzag
01-08-2018, 01:07 PM
SMC won games last week and was dropped off the top 25.

Happens when you play the kind of non-conference schedule they did and the best wins are BYU and New Mexico State. Tough to stay relevant with the east coast when you do not leave California. It is a shame because they are a good team that is not set up to thrive in the popularity contest that are the Ap and Coaches poll.

TexasZagFan
01-08-2018, 01:29 PM
Happens when you play the kind of non-conference schedule they did and the best wins are BYU and New Mexico State. Tough to stay relevant with the east coast when you do not leave California. It is a shame because they are a good team that is not set up to thrive in the popularity contest that are the Ap and Coaches poll.

I recommend they set up a home and home with Dayton, it will help when they're awarded a play-in game.

sittingon50
01-08-2018, 01:37 PM
SMC won games last week and was dropped off the top 25.

SMC dropped out of the polls weeks ago.

cbbfanatic
01-08-2018, 01:38 PM
Happens when you play the kind of non-conference schedule they did and the best wins are BYU and New Mexico State. Tough to stay relevant with the east coast when you do not leave California. It is a shame because they are a good team that is not set up to thrive in the popularity contest that are the Ap and Coaches poll.

they're also not set up to thrive against real competition... which is probably why they duck it

this isnt about a popularity contest with SMC, they baaaaarely participate in what a casual fan would consider quality college basketball to be

sittingon50
01-08-2018, 01:39 PM
My understanding was that Shem had a wrist injury which required surgery. He got that surgery after he played in the summer league.

Or am I more confused than normal?

gaels87
01-08-2018, 01:43 PM
SMC dropped out of the polls weeks ago.

We haven't been in the Top 25 since we dropped two in the T-giving tournament. We had 11 votes last week.
Feel free to rip us all you want about our schedule, as it once again sucked, but at least have your facts straight before ripping us.

sittingon50
01-08-2018, 02:01 PM
Hey 87, since you quoted my post I guess you're talking to me.

SMC is not in the AP poll & since that is the one that was linked earlier in the thread, that is the one I was referring to. And when I said "out of the polls" I was referring to the Top 25. I could have been more accurate.

SMC IS listed as receiving votes in the Coaches poll.


And since I was the one that was quoted, let me assure you that I have NEVER ripped SMC's schedule. I am a former HS Coach of 2 sport's & every decision I ever made, whether it was my schedule or my practices was based upon what was best for MY team. I could give a sh*t about what anybody else in my league was doing with their non-conference schedule. In that regard, I support Coach Bennett.

jazzdelmar
01-08-2018, 02:22 PM
selective memory much when it comes to blame?

NWG shot 29% from the floor (28% from 2 point land) on 5-17 shooting and only 50% from free throw line (shem was 7-9)

Collins had 4 turnovers in only 14 minutes of play time

maybe they "killed" us too? or do you discount those sub par performances as having impact on our ability to win the game?

No one played perfectly. Though Collins in the semi came darn close. But Karnoís 1-8 and 4 TOs were painful to watch. You canít go home again, he played poorly.

Nevada Don
01-08-2018, 02:26 PM
they're also not set up to thrive against real competition... which is probably why they duck it

this isnt about a popularity contest with SMC, they baaaaarely participate in what a casual fan would consider quality college basketball to be

Will you just stop the asinine comments? Cut the exaggerations somewhat. The Gaels non-conference schedule SUCKS. Only RB can do something about it. He hasn't. How many bullets do you want to put in a dead horse?

The Gaels DO participate in quality basketball. GU thrice (that means three times). And I think they played VCU and Arizona in some tournament last March too.

As far as "Sittingon 50" goes, gael67 just got a little confused. I couldn't imagine a more fair and objective poster than Sittingon 50.

DixieZag
01-08-2018, 02:35 PM
Well, only a moron would deny that we get a whole bag full of wins that look pretty on the rankings thing, definitely got that going for us as a positive that's hardly our fault , in fact Few has blasted the conference for letting it get as weak as it has.

Regardless of the lack of quality teams to play in conference, I find it odd in a good way that we have gone about 3-4 years since I recall a bad loss to anyone not named SMC or BYU. Feint praise, to be sure. But, play darn near anyone in their gym, when it's their superbowl again, and not drop a single game that I can recall for 3-4 years?

Even the MacClellan team tht struggled sooo much with soo many things until they decided they were good and should've gone to the E8, even when they were kicking every game around versus the top 2, they did not drop a single game versus any of the others.

I know, I know, but not one? Over how any years? At some point you have to say; "I'll be damned, they find a way to bring it even against guys they know it will be a "no-win" situation, and they do in fact "win" every time. So, you know.

Zags11
01-08-2018, 02:48 PM
better check your source

18:22 PK says he saw eye doctor in the lockeroom


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAtUxxHhfrs

That's fine. My source deals with Roth and few and the players in Spokane for their injuries and eyes. They did not bring a optometrist like they have before. And again the injury kept up in the NC game. So the eye doctor that "saw" him obviously didn't do such a good job or the injury was worse then "we" know.

I mean my source told me Shem was out for the year the year before and how he could barely walk before the news was leaked. The thread was shutdown as it was hearsay but obviously my source was 110% correct.

I understand why people who do have legit sources hate posting about the source. Carry on.

Kiddwell
01-08-2018, 02:51 PM
SMC won games last week and was dropped off the top 25.

I think you mean SMU. Saint Mary's hasn't been ranked for a while, and they're being totally ignored in the AP Poll. Coaches like 'em, and SMC's showing up on bracketologies too. Really liked the battle San Diego gave the Gaels. If San Diego can maintain and grow, we may have a fourth top-tier team in conference.


:]

Zags11
01-08-2018, 02:52 PM
That's fine. My source deals with Roth and few and the players in Spokane for their injuries and eyes. They did not bring a optometrist like they have before. And again the injury kept up in the NC game. So the eye doctor that "saw" him obviously didn't do such a good job or the injury was worse then "we" know.

I mean my source told me Shem was out for the year the year before and how he could barely walk before the news was leaked. The thread was shutdown as it was hearsay but obviously my source was 110% correct.

I understand why people who do have legit sources hate posting about the source. Carry on.


Shem suffered a eye injury and they didn't bring a optometrist to final 4 a birdie told me. Huge mess up.

This was my qoute. They did not bring a optometrist like they normally do. One that is close to them. Idk why this was. I did not ask why. They just said "it was a huge mess up".

Don't shoot the messenger.

gaels87
01-08-2018, 03:12 PM
Hey 87, since you quoted my post I guess you're talking to me.

SMC is not in the AP poll & since that is the one that was linked earlier in the thread, that is the one I was referring to. And when I said "out of the polls" I was referring to the Top 25. I could have been more accurate.

SMC IS listed as receiving votes in the Coaches poll.


And since I was the one that was quoted, let me assure you that I have NEVER ripped SMC's schedule. I am a former HS Coach of 2 sport's & every decision I ever made, whether it was my schedule or my practices was based upon what was best for MY team. I could give a sh*t about what anybody else in my league was doing with their non-conference schedule. In that regard, I support Coach Bennett.


50- my mistake - I did not mean to quote you, but a few posts ahead of you. I've followed this forum for many years and know you have always been kind to SMC and Bennett. Peace :)

bartruff1
01-08-2018, 03:12 PM
I am not blaming Shem....teams lose and teams win and any number of players or plays could have won or lost that one game...

I was just shocked when he missed those shots that he had been making his entire career.....he did so much for Gonzaga Basketball his whole career and that season......I love him like a son..... and respect him for the courage and determination he showed during his career...he was a very special person...

cggonzaga
01-08-2018, 03:38 PM
You win as a team, you lose as a team. Nigel's 4-8 from the charity stripe is the one that still befuddles me.

This was a game where playing in the WCC was a factor. We just didn't have enough experience playing bigger, more athletic teams than UNC. The teardrops that Nigel could shoot at ease in conference play were not to be found against UNC.

Meh. Beat everybody else we played. UNC didn’t do anything any different than anybody else we played. Don’t forget NWG badly sprained his ankle the game before. Also don’t underestimate how bad the refs hurt us even though that was expected going into the game.

jazzdelmar
01-08-2018, 03:55 PM
Meh. Beat everybody else we played. UNC didn’t do anything any different than anybody else we played. Don’t forget NWG badly sprained his ankle the game before. Also don’t underestimate how bad the refs hurt us even though that was expected going into the game.

Yup. GU was the best team in the country last year. Period.

Zagger
01-08-2018, 04:11 PM
Wow. GU moved up further than I thought we would. Kudos to the gang for playing pretty decent ball against Pep and LMU.
Headed to Thursday night's game at the Kennel. I'm eager to see how well Portland can do against the Zags. With Kispert seeming to be 100% and Rui getting up to speed .... it's like the Zags now have 7 starters. If both Jones and Larsen also continue to play good ball ..... this season could get pretty interesting.

Pleasant Peninsula
01-08-2018, 04:17 PM
So you really think we are better than those teams for having beaten the garbage we beat? I know itís vintage GU math but this year itís embarrassing.

I think there's good reason to think that GU is better than several of these teams (see: KenPom). Do you think they are clearly worse than any of those teams?

jazzdelmar
01-08-2018, 04:20 PM
I think there's good reason to think that GU is better than several of these teams (see: KenPom). Do you think they are clearly worse than any of those teams?

Of course/maybe a couple.

cbbfanatic
01-08-2018, 04:47 PM
Yup. GU was the best team in the country last year. Period.

hard to make this claim when you look at the wins...

the team on the floor certainly looked top-5 good, but at the end of the day, there just wasn't that much in front of them all season long... certainly not enough to where i would make any such claim

cggonzaga
01-08-2018, 04:51 PM
Yup. GU was the best team in the country last year. Period.

I agree.

MontanaCoyote
01-08-2018, 06:47 PM
In regards to the WCC, is this year different from any other? (Other than you not liking our team?)


I am not blaming Shem....teams lose and teams win and any number of players or plays could have won or lost that one game...

I was just shocked when he missed those shots that he had been making his entire career.....he did so much for Gonzaga Basketball his whole career and that season......I love him like a son..... and respect him for the courage and determination he showed during his career...he was a very special person...

Here, Here! And a very special person he is. Doing a lot of cool things for kids in Andorra and elsewhere. All around, we'll
never match him.

Pleasant Peninsula
01-08-2018, 06:53 PM
hard to make this claim when you look at the wins...

the team on the floor certainly looked top-5 good, but at the end of the day, there just wasn't that much in front of them all season long... certainly not enough to where i would make any such claim

I don't think just looking at which teams have the best wins -- essentially reducing the season to a sample size of a few halves -- is really the best way to determine who has the best team.

Virtually every advanced metric that takes the entire season into consideration (and yes, adjust for context and competition level) last year showed that Gonzaga was not only the top team, but that there was a pretty significant gap between them and the next grouping of teams.

Nobody flies a banner for being the top KenPom team, though, so it's not like this is a terribly meaningful distinction, but objective analysis backs up the claim with room to spare.

TexasZagFan
01-08-2018, 06:56 PM
I don't think just looking at which teams have the best wins -- essentially reducing the season to a sample size of a few halves -- is really the best way to determine who has the best team.

Virtually every advanced metric that takes the entire season into consideration (and yes, adjust for context and competition level) last year showed that Gonzaga was not only the top team, but that there was a pretty significant gap between them and the next grouping of teams.

Nobody flies a banner for being the top KenPom team, though, so it's not like this is a terribly meaningful distinction, but objective analysis backs up the claim with room to spare.

We should have pulled a UCF and had a parade for winning the Pomeroy title. :lmao:

Zagceo
01-08-2018, 10:20 PM
This was my qoute. They did not bring a optometrist like they normally do. One that is close to them. Idk why this was. I did not ask why. They just said "it was a huge mess up".

Don't shoot the messenger.

relax..no subpoenas or depositions coming your way.

anytime I hear "they" said it was a huge mess up...could mean lots of things to me. The fact that PK was injured could be 1 interpretation

The fact we had 4 coaches, trainers, NCAA provided doctors and specialists and "they" say we left our normal Optometrist home on the biggest weekend in history which caused a huge mess up..seems like a stretch IMHO

rennis
01-09-2018, 07:36 AM
Yup. GU was the best team in the country last year. Period.

Agreed. Take away the bad 2nd half against BYU in Spokane (and the Spokesman jinx/snafu) and all the little things that went UNC's way in the Natty and they'd have been undefeated national champions and arguably one of the best CBB teams of all time. They were that close to immortality, and that's why the runner-up finish continues to be so difficult for a lot of fans. Myself included.

jazzdelmar
01-09-2018, 07:47 AM
Agreed. Take away the bad 2nd half against BYU in Spokane (and the Spokesman jinx/snafu) and all the little things that went UNC's way in the Natty and they'd have been undefeated national champions and arguably one of the best CBB teams of all time. They were that close to immortality, and that's why the runner-up finish continues to be so difficult for a lot of fans. Myself included.

Well, not sure about immortality. But, yea, it was all there for the taking. Perhaps one of the most cohesive and balanced teams of all time if your scenario occurred.

bartruff1
01-09-2018, 08:08 AM
I could care less because it is the media that creates immortality....

BUT there has not been a Undefeated National Championship Team since Bobby Knight's 1976 Indiana Team.....41 years ago..

It is a very small club of seven teams that also includes Bill Russell's USF team and four from UCLA and one from North Carolina......so only UCLA, San Francisco, North Carolina and Indiana....pretty good company I would say..

So it would be a great story...... and ironically two teams from the WCC......a real coulda, woulda shoulda....

jazzdelmar
01-09-2018, 08:20 AM
I could care less because it is the media that creates immortality....

BUT there has not been a Undefeated National Championship Team since Bobby Knight's 1976 Indiana Team.....41 years ago..

It is a very small club of seven teams that includes Bill Russell's USF team and four from UCLA and one from North Carolina......so only UCLA, San Francisco, North Carolina and Indiana....pretty good company I would say..

So it would be a great story...... and ironically two teams from the WCC......a real coulda, woulda shoulda....

Emphasis on "shoulda."

cbbfanatic
01-09-2018, 12:00 PM
I don't think just looking at which teams have the best wins -- essentially reducing the season to a sample size of a few halves -- is really the best way to determine who has the best team.

Virtually every advanced metric that takes the entire season into consideration (and yes, adjust for context and competition level) last year showed that Gonzaga was not only the top team, but that there was a pretty significant gap between them and the next grouping of teams.

Nobody flies a banner for being the top KenPom team, though, so it's not like this is a terribly meaningful distinction, but objective analysis backs up the claim with room to spare.

i agree with your top point and then the part about hanging banners for efficiency stats

the thing i just really struggle to reconcile is how poorly gonzaga has performed historically and consistently against the true best of the best (talking legitimate top 5-10 teams here), compared to how good they look against the rest of their schedule, which is probably 95% of their games. seems to be the case in the reg & post season

then i look at last year, and i see a team that looked really awesome wire to wire --- a team to me that could certainly buck that trend, but they never really had to prove it against someone on that top tier until the title game. you could argue zona RS last yr, but playing a good/young team before the calendar turns, on a neutral court, missing a couple starters just doesnt have the same level of challenge to it as what i am talking about. so while most people see last year as this huge breakthrough (on the court, in the tournament), i'm still stuck wondering when mark few and team are really going to break through in the tournament and deliver one of those timeless wins, deep in the tournament, over a legitimate/elite team.

to me, when i sit back and look at it, it's tempting to say the real breakthrough last year was that GU caught a draw where there just wasnt anyone in front of them --- party due to draw, party attrition of the other contenders. as cynical as that all sounds, it fits with the longer term trend as well as the notion that last year was some sort of breakthrough with a level of repeat-ability to it. So maybe the story is... "historically, when GU runs into 1/2 seed, they lose. this last year, it just happened a lot later than usual"

if you look at mark few's w/l on the surface, it's amazing. for anyone, in any conference, any geography, you name it. when you double click a little and look at what composes the wins and losses, it really starts to look a little different.

bartruff1
01-09-2018, 12:38 PM
Cbbfanatic...do you happen to know what coaches ( Brad Stevens. Greg Marshall ????.....) from other mid majors (or similar sized programs) that has a better record against 5-10 rated teams ??

SWZag
01-09-2018, 01:05 PM
if you look at mark few's w/l on the surface, it's amazing. for anyone, in any conference, any geography, you name it. when you double click a little and look at what composes the wins and losses, it really starts to look a little different.

You could take any coach / team and peel back the onion to make their success look not as impressive. Take Kentucky, Kansas or Duke. They are teams that play in "tough" conferences, win a lot of games and have National Titles to show for it. Peel back the onion and what do you get? A record that doesn't look at impressive based on the talent they get, the budgets they have, the resources they have, etc etc etc. Winning in a "tough" league is easier if you have All-Americans who fill your bench. Winning in a "non-tough" league is a lot harder when you have regular recruits. I would say that winning like GU has in the WCC is far more impressive than Kansas winning the Big 12 year after year like Kansas has done. Sure the competition may be "tougher," but the talent you have against that competition is a lot higher.

Example and my point: Santa Clara beating Michigan State 5 out of 10 times is far more impressive than Purdue beating Michigan State 5 out of 10 times. Simply due to the level of resources available.

So anyone can find fault or diminish accomplishments by others if you really want to look for it.

rennis
01-09-2018, 01:21 PM
West Virginia SHOULD have been a 2 seed last year

jazzdelmar
01-09-2018, 01:36 PM
i agree with your top point and then the part about hanging banners for efficiency stats

the thing i just really struggle to reconcile is how poorly gonzaga has performed historically and consistently against the true best of the best (talking legitimate top 5-10 teams here), compared to how good they look against the rest of their schedule, which is probably 95% of their games. seems to be the case in the reg & post season

then i look at last year, and i see a team that looked really awesome wire to wire --- a team to me that could certainly buck that trend, but they never really had to prove it against someone on that top tier until the title game. you could argue zona RS last yr, but playing a good/young team before the calendar turns, on a neutral court, missing a couple starters just doesnt have the same level of challenge to it as what i am talking about. so while most people see last year as this huge breakthrough (on the court, in the tournament), i'm still stuck wondering when mark few and team are really going to break through in the tournament and deliver one of those timeless wins, deep in the tournament, over a legitimate/elite team.

to me, when i sit back and look at it, it's tempting to say the real breakthrough last year was that GU caught a draw where there just wasnt anyone in front of them --- party due to draw, party attrition of the other contenders. as cynical as that all sounds, it fits with the longer term trend as well as the notion that last year was some sort of breakthrough with a level of repeat-ability to it. So maybe the story is... "historically, when GU runs into 1/2 seed, they lose. this last year, it just happened a lot later than usual"

if you look at mark few's w/l on the surface, it's amazing. for anyone, in any conference, any geography, you name it. when you double click a little and look at what composes the wins and losses, it really starts to look a little different.


Call it Few's secret sauce. This you're only now noticing?

Zagceo
01-09-2018, 02:05 PM
if you look at mark few's w/l on the surface, it's amazing. for anyone, in any conference, any geography, you name it. when you double click a little and look at what composes the wins and losses, it really starts to look a little different.

All wins are not equal

Building a World Class Basketball program able to compete against P5 infrastructure and its resources will be Mark Fews greatest legacy....even bigger than FF or even winning NAT

bartruff1
01-09-2018, 02:48 PM
When Henny Youngman was asked " How is your wife ?" ...he replied " Compared to who ?".....now that is a fair question....what coach from a non Power 5 Conference has a better record against the top ten teams ??? Cal ?....McDermott ?

Markburn1
01-09-2018, 03:02 PM
Fair question. I'll go even farther. With the exception of guys like Coach K, Roy Williams, Bill Self...who has a winning record against top ten teams? The answer is virtually nobody. Every year you can look at bracketology figures and there are literally only a handful of teams that were better than .500 against top 25 teams. There are very few coaches that have a winning record in the NCAA tourney. Mark Few is one of them. And he makes the tourney every year. Calling his resume suspect is absurd.

MontanaCoyote
01-09-2018, 04:29 PM
Fair question. I'll go even farther. With the exception of guys like Coach K, Roy Williams, Bill Self...who has a winning record against top ten teams? The answer is virtually nobody. Every year you can look at bracketology figures and there are literally only a handful of teams that were better than .500 against top 25 teams. There are very few coaches that have a winning record in the NCAA tourney. Mark Few is one of them. And he makes the tourney every year. Calling his resume suspect is absurd.

That's right. No one should be saying........."Take my wife.......Please" On this one.

Zagdawg
01-09-2018, 04:40 PM
You know jazz will discount the run last year.....but cbb also? You play the teams that are in front of you---- if you beat them then you move on -- not going to discount the run to the title game because "better" teams could not beat the teams in front of them while the Zags did.

The kentuckys, Dukes, North Carolinas, Kansas, Arizonas who are loaded with 5 star top 100 guys every year are more likely to be the 1 or 2 seeds that teams run into and lose to -- its the way college basketball is set up.

Every once in a while a school can sneak in and steal a little thunder ......hoping we get to steal some thunder again in my lifetime.

jazzdelmar
01-09-2018, 04:49 PM
You know jazz will discount the run last year.....but cbb also? You play the teams that are in front of you---- if you beat them then you move on -- not going to discount the run to the title game because "better" teams could not beat the teams in front of them while the Zags did.

The kentuckys, Dukes, North Carolinas, Kansas, Arizonas who are loaded with 5 star top 100 guys every year are more likely to be the 1 or 2 seeds that teams run into and lose to -- its the way college basketball is set up.

Every once in a while a school can sneak in and steal a little thunder ......hoping we get to steal some thunder again in my lifetime.

Discount the run? Huh. I posted we were the best team in the country last year which others like CBB have countered. Keep up, ZD. I’m not always oppositional.

Zagdawg
01-09-2018, 07:04 PM
Call it Few's secret sauce. This you're only now noticing?

Calling out your comment supporting cbb comments on our "easy" run to the final and Fews record. Yes-- someone does need to keep up.

WallaWallaZag
01-09-2018, 08:41 PM
the thing i just really struggle to reconcile is how poorly gonzaga has performed historically and consistently against the true best of the best (talking legitimate top 5-10 teams here), compared to how good they look against the rest of their schedule, which is probably 95% of their games. seems to be the case in the reg & post season

the fact you have difficulty reconciling this tells me you must have unrealistic expectations...how many games have the zags played against legit top 5-10 teams while they were ALSO a legit 5-10 team??? that should be the standard...saying the zags have underperformed is ridiculous without proper context. how many of those games played against 1 or 2 seeds were the zags also at least a top 4 seed??? you're basically complaining that the zags haven't consistently pulled off amazing upsets...

Pleasant Peninsula
01-10-2018, 12:16 AM
Calling out your comment supporting cbb comments on our "easy" run to the final and Fews record. Yes-- someone does need to keep up.

Yes, you do. Jazz's comment had nothing to with last year's team, he's talking about the historical record going back almost 20 years.

jazzdelmar
01-10-2018, 06:04 AM
Yes, you do. Jazz's comment had nothing to with last year's team, he's talking about the historical record going back almost 20 years.

Thanks, PP. Sigh.

kitzbuel
01-10-2018, 09:43 AM
When Henny Youngman was asked " How is your wife ?" ...he replied " Compared to who ?".....now that is a fair question....what coach from a non Power 5 Conference has a better record against the top ten teams ??? Cal ?....McDermott ?Very good and fair question.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

willandi
01-10-2018, 10:06 AM
Very good and fair question.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

There have been those that believe the Zags are only moving up in the rankings because of losses to teams ranked higher.

That doesn't explain the top 10 positions of Gonzaga on KenPom and BPI. Those metrics by people whose livelihood depends on knowing, believe differently.

WallaWallaZag
01-10-2018, 10:20 AM
There have been those that believe the Zags are only moving up in the rankings because of losses to teams ranked higher.

That doesn't explain the top 10 positions of Gonzaga on KenPom and BPI. Those metrics by people whose livelihood depends on knowing, believe differently.

well, we don't actually know what those people believe, but the statistics they use indicate differently...

willandi
01-10-2018, 10:29 AM
well, we don't actually know what those people believe, but the statistics they use indicate differently...

If your livelihood is based on sharing your opinion, an easy assumption is that you believe what you are sharing.

amaronizag
01-10-2018, 10:32 AM
GU has moved up to #8 in the KenPom rankings. We currently have an Offensive efficiency of 118.4 and that gives us a rank of #9 in the nation. That means we score 1.184 points per possession. Which by the way is exactly where we finished last season --1.184. GU is ranked #18 in Defensive Efficiency for allowing our opponents to score 0.939 points per possession. Not long ago we were at 0.963. As we continue to play easy WCC teams and hold them to low scores, our Defensive Efficiency will continue to improve and we will rise in the KenPom rankings if we continue to score at our present high rate. As I have posted several times over the last couple of months, I expect our DEff rating to fall to .92 or below fairly quickly so our national KenPom ranking will continue to rise. We should be top 5 very soon.

Markburn1
01-10-2018, 10:33 AM
If your livelihood is based on sharing your opinion, an easy assumption is that you believe what you are sharing.

Nope. Sharing an opinion in print has always been affected by driving traffic to your newspaper or website. You don't have to believe it, you have to create revenue.

Zagceo
01-10-2018, 10:53 AM
Nope. Sharing an opinion in print has always been affected by driving traffic to your newspaper or website. You don't have to believe it, you have to create revenue.

boom reality

unless you're living in China

willandi
01-10-2018, 10:54 AM
Nope. Sharing an opinion in print has always been affected by driving traffic to your newspaper or website. You don't have to believe it, you have to create revenue.

I understand what you are saying, but I believe that if you have a statistical method of ranking teams, and you manipulate it to get traffic, that will come out and you will end up with nothing.

I believe you are right when it comes to blogs and op-ed/opinion pieces, but not so with BPI or especially KenPom. If he doesn't believe in his formulas, he is out of work.

gonzagafan62
01-10-2018, 10:57 AM
Shockers look like the best talent and the best coach in the country. And to think we gave them their start.

So you're saying their the best team? That I highly disagree with

jazzdelmar
01-10-2018, 11:35 AM
So you're saying their the best team? That I highly disagree with

Geez. I said the best talent to go with the best coach. Just MO. I was also trying to be sarcastic by noting we gave them their start, so to speak. Although they did pretty well beyond that.

Markburn1
01-10-2018, 11:44 AM
Geez. I said the best talent to go with the best coach. Just MO. I was also trying to be sarcastic by noting we gave them their start, so to speak. Although they did pretty well beyond that.

I've always halfway rooted against them and Butler because they steal a little thunder from the Zags. Just give me a National Championship before some other upstart claims one.

kitzbuel
01-10-2018, 11:55 AM
There have been those that believe the Zags are only moving up in the rankings because of losses to teams ranked higher.

That doesn't explain the top 10 positions of Gonzaga on KenPom and BPI. Those metrics by people whose livelihood depends on knowing, believe differently.

It is my suspicion that top 10 team only ever win 50% of their games against other top 10 teams. Just a hunch.

TexasZagFan
01-10-2018, 12:35 PM
It is my suspicion that top 10 team only ever win 50% of their games against other top 10 teams. Just a hunch.

Only moderators like yourself have such wisdom and insight.

BTW, I forgot to mention I liked your idea for the thread you described in the recent PM to me. Maybe it would be better off in the Foo, though. ;)

RenoZag
01-10-2018, 01:05 PM
Voters and where they rank the Zags:

http://www.collegepolltracker.com/basketball/team/gonzaga-bulldogs/2017

TexasZagFan
01-10-2018, 03:21 PM
Voters and where they rank the Zags:

http://www.collegepolltracker.com/basketball/team/gonzaga-bulldogs/2017

Joe Rexrode deserves a thumbs down...Zags at 24?

sittingon50
01-10-2018, 03:54 PM
Thanks Reno. Been looking for that.

RenoZag
01-10-2018, 06:09 PM
Thanks Reno. Been looking for that.

Sitting: That link is in this thread:

http://guboards.spokesmanreview.com/showthread.php?25728-Basketball-Web-Sites-Stats-Blogs-More

I haven't updated all of the links yet. . .some might be obsolete. . .

Have a great evening

cbbfanatic
01-10-2018, 08:09 PM
the fact you have difficulty reconciling this tells me you must have unrealistic expectations...how many games have the zags played against legit top 5-10 teams while they were ALSO a legit 5-10 team??? that should be the standard...saying the zags have underperformed is ridiculous without proper context. how many of those games played against 1 or 2 seeds were the zags also at least a top 4 seed??? you're basically complaining that the zags haven't consistently pulled off amazing upsets...

I dont disagree with much of this, hence the difficulty in reconciling. On one hand is what you said (valid), on the other is a growing trend/disturbing stat (Also valid).

sittingon50
01-10-2018, 10:33 PM
Sitting: That link is in this thread:

http://guboards.spokesmanreview.com/showthread.php?25728-Basketball-Web-Sites-Stats-Blogs-More

I haven't updated all of the links yet. . .some might be obsolete. . .

Have a great evening

Thanks Reno. Am always overlooking that site & have no idea why?

WallaWallaZag
01-11-2018, 04:56 AM
I dont disagree with much of this, hence the difficulty in reconciling. On one hand is what you said (valid), on the other is a growing trend/disturbing stat (Also valid).

i would say losing to top 10 teams and 1 and 2 seeds is probably a growing trend for just about every team...from a zag perspective, the only legit top teams i would personally include would be KOs 2013 team and last year's team...you could put ammo's final season in there and the stepp/turiaf team too. interesting note is that two of the four "elite" teams listed lost to heavy underdogs in #10 seed nevada and #9 wichita...and not a fellow top seed.

WallaWallaZag
01-11-2018, 05:27 AM
i'm still stuck wondering when mark few and team are really going to break through in the tournament and deliver one of those timeless wins, deep in the tournament, over a legitimate/elite team.

while it's true that the zags have never defeated a #1 seed (they did knock off #2 seeds in both '99 and '00 -- both times as #10 seeds by the way)
it's only recently that they've faced them on a somewhat equal footing... '15 pangos/bell team as a #2 seed losing to #1 seed Duke in Elite Eight and last year's #1 seed losing to also #1 UNC in title game)
so going 0-2 i wouldn't exactly say is a disturbing trend...you need to also be a legitimate/elite team to beat one deep in march.

cbbfanatic
01-11-2018, 08:55 AM
while it's true that the zags have never defeated a #1 seed (they did knock off #2 seeds in both '99 and '00 -- both times as #10 seeds by the way)
it's only recently that they've faced them on a somewhat equal footing... '15 pangos/bell team as a #2 seed losing to #1 seed Duke in Elite Eight and last year's #1 seed losing to also #1 UNC in title game)
so going 0-2 i wouldn't exactly say is a disturbing trend...you need to also be a legitimate/elite team to beat one deep in march.

i'm not only talking about the tournament though. i realize each team only gets a shot or two at a top team, but you'd think at some point over the last decade there would be some success against these guys. i mean, break down last year's team BEFORE the tournament, and ask yourself what they really had to do to EARN a 1 seed, and i think the answer you'll end up with is "not lose" --- didnt really have to stand up and knock down numerous tough teams while avoiding losses to teams that may be unranked but are filled with top 150 kids (the way every other 1 seed got there). 1 seed seasons are VERY hard to put together in a major conference. you have to beat some really good teams, and not lose focus vs a bunch of dangerous/capable teams (think teams in the general range of SMC/BYU, but more athletic and physical). did GU really have to prove that out last year? i dont know. hard to say. eye test certainly said they were really damned good. but again, hard to reconcile with what was actually achieved.

i realize you cant control how bad the wcc is, cant control zona's injuries, cant control the tournament path where everyone folded. but you can do some things. you can stop scheduling so many total cupcakes OOC. no reason GU should have more than 1 or 2 of these in a given season with what they have waiting for them in conference play. their ooc should resemble kansas, msu, arizona types (that always seem to play EVERYONE).

and yeah, most teams struggle against the very top. that's why they're the very top. problem i have with reconciling is that it seems the general thought in the GU fandom is that GU is an elite program/in that very top group. i want to see them at some point beat another team on that tier.

john wooden used to say "never mistake activity for achievement"... or something like that. in a way, that's what i have a hard time reconciling with GU. of course at a high level, the program is amazing. but i cant help but feel that there's some level of hollowness to some of the grandiose numbers (w/l). a little more on that activity end of the scale, perhaps

to reiterate, the above are things i have a hard time figuring out in my own head. not saying GU sucks and all their achievements are worthless. not at all.

former1dog
01-11-2018, 09:07 AM
cbbfanatic,

Like you, I'm kind of at a loss trying to figure out your expectations/desires for this program?

I will say that making the tournament and winning at least one game for nearly a decade straight is ridiculously elite by any standard and should help you with what ever question you're trying to answer.

Consecutive NCAA tourneys with one win:

Kansas 11
Gonzaga 9
UNC 7
Wichita State 5
Oregon 5
Kentucky 4
Villanova 4
Virginia 4
Wisconsin 4
Duke 3
Xavier 3
Butler 3
Notre Dame 3
Iowa State 2

Consecutive NCAA Touneys With 2 wins:

Wisconsin 4
Gonzaga 3
UNC 3
Kansas 2

cbbfanatic
01-11-2018, 09:31 AM
cbbfanatic,

Like you, I'm kind of at a loss trying to figure out your expectations/desires for this program?

I will say that making the tournament and winning at least one game for nearly a decade straight is ridiculously elite by any standard and should help you with what ever question you're trying to answer.

Consecutive NCAA tourneys with one win:

Kansas 11
Gonzaga 9
UNC 7
Wichita State 5
Oregon 5
Kentucky 4
Villanova 4
Virginia 4
Wisconsin 4
Duke 3
Xavier 3
Butler 3
Notre Dame 3
Iowa State 2

Consecutive NCAA Touneys With 2 wins:

Wisconsin 4
Gonzaga 3
UNC 3
Kansas 2

again, really impressive on the surface. still, not an elite win in either streak. (hence, continued struggle to reconcile activity vs achievement)

there's no doubt that GU is great at taking care of business when they have the clear talent advantage. but when they go toe to toe against what we all want to think is their peer group, it's a different story.

my desire is actually pretty simple. play better teams so you can start beating better teams with more regularity, build the muscle of being competitive and winning against the best, and see how the program really stacks up. go back to the mentality of anyone, anytime, anywhere, even if it means more losses in nov/dec and an unlikley path to a 1/2 seed. this is all aside from the real idea i'm expressing in this thread that is more of a look back at few's tenure and his (in)ability to beat good to great teams.

Bulldoginseattle
01-11-2018, 09:56 AM
i'm not only talking about the tournament though. i realize each team only gets a shot or two at a top team, but you'd think at some point over the last decade there would be some success against these guys. i mean, break down last year's team BEFORE the tournament, and ask yourself what they really had to do to EARN a 1 seed, and i think the answer you'll end up with is "not lose" --- didnt really have to stand up and knock down numerous tough teams while avoiding losses to teams that may be unranked but are filled with top 150 kids (the way every other 1 seed got there). 1 seed seasons are VERY hard to put together in a major conference. you have to beat some really good teams, and not lose focus vs a bunch of dangerous/capable teams (think teams in the general range of SMC/BYU, but more athletic and physical). did GU really have to prove that out last year? i dont know. hard to say. eye test certainly said they were really damned good. but again, hard to reconcile with what was actually achieved.

i realize you cant control how bad the wcc is, cant control zona's injuries, cant control the tournament path where everyone folded. but you can do some things. you can stop scheduling so many total cupcakes OOC. no reason GU should have more than 1 or 2 of these in a given season with what they have waiting for them in conference play. their ooc should resemble kansas, msu, arizona types (that always seem to play EVERYONE).

and yeah, most teams struggle against the very top. that's why they're the very top. problem i have with reconciling is that it seems the general thought in the GU fandom is that GU is an elite program/in that very top group. i want to see them at some point beat another team on that tier.

john wooden used to say "never mistake activity for achievement"... or something like that. in a way, that's what i have a hard time reconciling with GU. of course at a high level, the program is amazing. but i cant help but feel that there's some level of hollowness to some of the grandiose numbers (w/l). a little more on that activity end of the scale, perhaps

to reiterate, the above are things i have a hard time figuring out in my own head. not saying GU sucks and all their achievements are worthless. not at all.

I don't specifically disagree with what you're saying here - so bear with me. First - I think that if this season has proven anything, it's that the bolded statement is harder than it seems (see wins from Boston College, Wafford, etc.).

I'm a pretty big stats junkie, and Kenpom is overall one of my favorite websites, and I think it helps both support what you're saying but add a bit of clarity as to why you can get a one-seed off of just "not losing." First, we've had a pretty abysmal record against the Kenpom top-20 until around the KO era, but outside a couple of flukes, no real success against the top-ten until last year where we beat two top-ten teams during the course of the year (Florida and WVU). Using the 2013 year as an example, we had some good success against top-25 teams and ended up as a five in KP. What helped us that year wasn't just the fact that we didn't lose during conference play, it's that we won so efficiently and so decisively. The guys can't always chose who they play, but they can decide to actually show up or not. I do feel like this year was a bit of a dud in terms of scheduling, but I suspect Few knew what he had going into the season and decided to get a couple lineup-tests in there with the cupcakes. That said, Ohio State is turning out to be a pretty good W, so is Creighton (top-20 on Kenpom now). Texas isn't looking too bad either after the W over a really good TCU team last night.

Going back to your point - I agree, but think we're trending towards an elite level - especially over the last 4-5 years, but aren't quite there yet (although the trend seems to be continuing regardless of personnel). If we were in a larger conference (Big East), I'd put us on equal footing with Xavier in terms of "eliteness." And no, that's not a bad thing.

23dpg
01-11-2018, 11:07 AM
Cbb has been coming on this board forever to stir the pot. He is a knowledgeable troll. He loves to point out the flaws with the program. He is a master of the backhanded compliment. No harm in that. I guess that gives him pleasure. But arguing with him is pointless.

former1dog
01-11-2018, 03:04 PM
Cbb has been coming on this board forever to stir the pot. He is a knowledgeable troll. He loves to point out the flaws with the program. He is a master of the backhanded compliment. No harm in that. I guess that gives him pleasure. But arguing with him is pointless.

That is unfortunate, but it does explain a lot. Thanks for the heads up.

maynard g krebs
01-11-2018, 03:51 PM
Cbb has been coming on this board forever to stir the pot. He is a knowledgeable troll. He loves to point out the flaws with the program. He is a master of the backhanded compliment. No harm in that. I guess that gives him pleasure. But arguing with him is pointless.

Bullseye.

Zagger
01-12-2018, 07:00 AM
........ my desire is actually pretty simple. play better teams so you can start beating better teams with more regularity, build the muscle of being competitive and winning against the best, and see how the program really stacks up. go back to the mentality of anyone, anytime, anywhere, even if it means more losses in nov/dec and an unlikley path to a 1/2 seed. this is all aside from the real idea i'm expressing in this thread that is more of a look back at few's tenure and his (in)ability to beat good to great teams.

I like the anyone, anytime, anywhere part but ..... hard to do from Spokane - and if one is also trying to get those anyone teams to come here. I take some exception to the (in)ability spin too. Hard to go to the final game in the NCAAs without beating some of those good or great schools. I know you're talking over a decade or more time period but .... we're talking GU and Spokane and the WCC. Plus, doesn't look to me as if Few is leaving any time soon. I tend to look at things in perspective and the trend of the whole Zags program is downright amazing. I feel "(in)ability", as such, is a rush to judgement. Plus, this season is far from over. Some good and great schools will yet be on this season's menu ... and next season too + the season after that.

willandi
01-12-2018, 07:04 AM
I like the anyone, anytime, anywhere part but ..... hard to do from Spokane - and if one is also trying to get those anyone teams to come here. I take some exception to the (in)ability spin too. Hard to go to the final game in the NCAAs without beating some of those good or great schools. I know you're talking over a decade or more time period but .... we're talking GU and Spokane and the WCC. Plus, doesn't look to me as if Few is leaving any time soon. I tend to look at things in perspective and the trend of the whole Zags program is downright amazing. I feel "(in)ability", as such, is a rush to judgement. Plus, this season is far from over. Some good and great schools will yet be on this season's menu ... and next season too + the season after that.

Maybe the Zags could be like the gunfighters of yore! They could rent a neutral site arena and tell (fill in the blank), meet us there at high noon...if you're not a chicken.