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maynard g krebs
01-07-2018, 12:06 AM
Nigel Williams-Goss played exactly 100 games as a starting point guard in NCAA basketball. In those games, he accumulated 496 assists and 259 turnovers. So that means he averaged 4.96 assists and 2.59 turnovers per game, a ratio of 1.9/1. (At GU he was at 4.7/2.2; 2.1/1 ratio)

Josh Perkins has now played in 54 games as lead guard for GU (fr year, this yr and the Santa Clara game NWG missed last yr. In those games he has accumulated 250 assists and 121 turnovers, for averages of 4.63 assists and 2.24 turnovers per game, and an a/to ratio of 2.07/1. (for this season he's now around 5.7/2.7, w/ currently the second highest apg avg since Blake Stepp's 6.9 a decade and a half ago; Pargo next at 6.0 and both w/ more t.o.'s.)


I guess, to paraphrase the pigs in George Orwell's Animal Farm, all turnovers are equal, but some are more equal than others.


Another point of interest is comparing rosters. Last year featured 6 veterans in the 8 man rotation, along w/ a MCDAA and lottery pick. And arguably 2 of the top 4 or 5 centers in all of CBB on the roster. This year's team features 3 1/2 veterans in the main 8 rotation (counting Tillie as a half, playing 14 mpg when not injured last yr), three fr incl the redshirts, and Rui who is effectively a rs fr in terms of experience.

So last year, over 160 minutes of 200 were manned by experienced players; this yr it's closer to 100. And the Kenpom offensive ratings for the two teams are virtually identical, despite the loss of post dominance and experience. (Where this team isn't as good is on the defensive end, due to post size/depth and all the guards having experience last yr.)

Last fall in Dixie's bold predictions thread, I said I thought that SMC would miss Rahon more than the Zags would miss NWG. The reason for that was that NWG was so ball dominant, as I said then (Dickau said the same on air recently), that I felt his presence would inhibit the development of, especially, Kispert and Norvell. Not saying NWG wasn't great, but he didn't make others better, which is what I look for in a pg.

Josh was willing to take a back seat last yr for the good of the team, and his numbers went down. Andrew Andrews blossomed at UW after NWG left; the UW actually had a winning record and made the NIT after NWG left. Josh's numbers are up; so are Melson's. Can't say what KC and ZN's would be; can only speculate, as I did before the season. But existing evidence leads me to believe my reasoning was solid.

Team scoring is up, assists are up, effective fg% is up despite the loss of Karno/Collins' combined 22+ppg, 12+rpg and 2.7 bpg while splitting time.

Just imagine what this team could do with a real pg.

LOL.

Kiddwell
01-07-2018, 12:33 AM
Interesting & fun read, Maynard.



:]

sittingon50
01-07-2018, 01:43 AM
)





Just imagine what this team could do with a real pg.

LOL.

Damn shame, isn't it maynard!

Zags11
01-07-2018, 02:22 AM
Bench him!

cggonzaga
01-07-2018, 03:34 AM
Nigel Williams-Goss played exactly 100 games as a starting point guard in NCAA basketball. In those games, he accumulated 496 assists and 259 turnovers. So that means he averaged 4.96 assists and 2.59 turnovers per game, a ratio of 1.9/1. (At GU he was at 4.7/2.2; 2.1/1 ratio)

Josh Perkins has now played in 54 games as lead guard for GU (fr year, this yr and the Santa Clara game NWG missed last yr. In those games he has accumulated 250 assists and 121 turnovers, for averages of 4.63 assists and 2.24 turnovers per game, and an a/to ratio of 2.07/1. (for this season he's now around 5.7/2.7, w/ currently the second highest apg avg since Blake Stepp's 6.9 a decade and a half ago; Pargo next at 6.0 and both w/ more t.o.'s.)


I guess, to paraphrase the pigs in George Orwell's Animal Farm, all turnovers are equal, but some are more equal than others.


Another point of interest is comparing rosters. Last year featured 6 veterans in the 8 man rotation, along w/ a MCDAA and lottery pick. And arguably 2 of the top 4 or 5 centers in all of CBB on the roster. This year's team features 3 1/2 veterans in the main 8 rotation (counting Tillie as a half, playing 14 mpg when not injured last yr), three fr incl the redshirts, and Rui who is effectively a rs fr in terms of experience.

So last year, over 160 minutes of 200 were manned by experienced players; this yr it's closer to 100. And the Kenpom offensive ratings for the two teams are virtually identical, despite the loss of post dominance and experience. (Where this team isn't as good is on the defensive end, due to post size/depth and all the guards having experience last yr.)

Last fall in Dixie's bold predictions thread, I said I thought that SMC would miss Rahon more than the Zags would miss NWG. The reason for that was that NWG was so ball dominant, as I said then (Dickau said the same on air recently), that I felt his presence would inhibit the development of, especially, Kispert and Norvell. Not saying NWG wasn't great, but he didn't make others better, which is what I look for in a pg.

Josh was willing to take a back seat last yr for the good of the team, and his numbers went down. Andrew Andrews blossomed at UW after NWG left; the UW actually had a winning record and made the NIT after NWG left. Josh's numbers are up; so are Melson's. Can't say what KC and ZN's would be; can only speculate, as I did before the season. But existing evidence leads me to believe my reasoning was solid.

Team scoring is up, assists are up, effective fg% is up despite the loss of Karno/Collins' combined 22+ppg, 12+rpg and 2.7 bpg while splitting time.

Just imagine what this team could do with a real pg.

LOL.

Glad to see you back.

Martin Centre Mad Man
01-07-2018, 04:24 AM
Well said.

GrizZAG
01-07-2018, 06:33 AM
Very interesting perspective. Sure is one way to spin things. It's fascinating to me how a given player can be terrible one game and GU Unit the next. Tillie, JP, J3 have all been there.

Zagcity
01-07-2018, 06:44 AM
Just imagine what this team could do with a real pg. LOL.

Always enjoyed your perspective. Thanks again

cjm720
01-07-2018, 08:01 AM
I think you forgot about the common sense in your tittle. Sorry man regardless of stats we would be way better with NWG.

amaronizag
01-07-2018, 08:38 AM
Thanks Maynard, great stuff!! Last year about this time our defensive efficiency was over 95 and folks were panicky. I predicted we would get down to 92 or better by the end of conference play and be rated in the top 15 for both O and D efficiency. When the year was over, we ended up at 86.3, the best in program history........by a LOT with the #1 rank on KenPom. Only 2X in the last 15 years has GU been below 93 in D efficiency, last year and in 2013 when we ended the year at 92.7. A week ago we were at about 95 and ranked 30th. We ended this week at 93.9 ranked 22. By the end of conference play we'll be below 92, ranked in the top 15, and maybe even the top 10 in D efficiency. KenPom now has us at #8 nationally based on the margin between how many points GU scores per possession and how many we allow our opponents to score per possession. By the end of conference play, our KenPom numbers will be great and I wager we'll be ranked in the top five by KenPom. Those numbers carry weight and improve our seed, but strength of opponents will work against us. I'm still thinking a 2 seed is realistic.

WallaWallaZag
01-07-2018, 08:58 AM
Thanks Maynard, great stuff!! Last year about this time our defensive efficiency was over 95 and folks were panicky. I predicted we would get down to 92 or better by the end of conference play and be rated in the top 15 for both O and D efficiency. When the year was over, we ended up at 86.3, the best in program history........by a LOT with the #1 rank on KenPom. Only 2X in the last 15 years has GU been below 93 in D efficiency, last year and in 2013 when we ended the year at 92.7. A week ago we were at about 95 and ranked 30th. We ended this week at 93.9 ranked 22. By the end of conference play we'll be below 92, ranked in the top 15, and maybe even the top 10 in D efficiency. KenPom now has us at #8 nationally based on the margin between how many points GU scores per possession and how many we allow our opponents to score per possession. By the end of conference play, our KenPom numbers will be great and I wager we'll be ranked in the top five by KenPom. Those numbers carry weight and improve our seed, but strength of opponents will work against us. I'm still thinking a 2 seed is realistic.

huge gap between rpi numbers last year compared to this year due primarily to strength of schedule...and it's not going to improve in the wcc. as long as committee is still using rpi as a metric, zags won't get a high seed this year...

MileHigh
01-07-2018, 09:17 AM
I cant speak for Maynard, but I dont think his point is that Josh is a better player than NWG, I think his point is that Josh is a solid pg and they both they had similar numbers, and both had positive impact on their respective teams...just in different ways. I am sure the posts on this board yesterday that suggested Few needs to bring in another pg next year to get Josh off the ball is what prompted Maynards post

I think what made NWG an all american and why he is so successful now playing in Europe is that he has a feel for the game and BBIQ that you cant coach. Not a huge pg, nor very quick or explosive, but he always could create space for that unstoppable floater and while not a great shooter was streaky and when he was on, he would hunt his shot and make several in a row while he was feeling it.

Also, I wouldn't characterize NWG as a great play maker or a pass first type of guard. He was more of a scoring pg that looked to get his shot first. Nothing wrong with that either, Westbrook, Irving. IT, and most of the great pg's in the NBA today are score first pgs. The John Stockton/Magic Johnson type of pass first pgs seen to be a thing of the past

Vanzagger
01-07-2018, 09:19 AM
Good stuff. Sometimes ball movement looks off the charts. And it’s only going to get better

WallaWallaZag
01-07-2018, 09:28 AM
I think you forgot about the common sense in your tittle. Sorry man regardless of stats we would be way better with NWG.

of course zags would be way better with nwg...if you also still kept perkins in play. how much better would the zags be if you replaced perkins with nwg? imo zags would be better, but not sure it would be dramatically better...though i don't think zags lose to sdsu with goss. nova would have played out the same and probably florida...perkins played a heck of a game against the gators and good chance zags win if he doesn't foul out.

Ezag
01-07-2018, 09:40 AM
I think you forgot about the common sense in your tittle. Sorry man regardless of stats we would be way better with NWG.

Agreed. NWG was ball dominant point guard who could take over a game if need be. He's going to have more turnovers because he took more chances. NWG on this years team would've been huge.

sittingon50
01-07-2018, 11:20 AM
I think you forgot about the common sense in your tittle. Sorry man regardless of stats we would be way better with NWG.

1. What's a tittle?
2. Zags would be better with Sabonis also. Why did you choose to leave him out?

Hoopaholic
01-07-2018, 11:33 AM
1. What's a tittle?
2. Zags would be better with Sabonis also. Why did you choose to leave him out?

and/or Karnowski or COllins


why leave them out......its a new year, new team and those that departed are gone not sure why some feel need to continually do the what if with past players ...makes no sense to me

JPtheBeasta
01-07-2018, 02:01 PM
I don't know if it's been mentioned, but NWG likely benefited from having a very good second PG on the floor at the same time who helped open up the floor for him.

Interestingly, NWG played an average of 32.7 minutes per game last year and Perkins is averaging 32.4 this year. I would have thought that Perkins was logging way more minutes. I would have speculated that having Perkins would have allowed NWG to be fresher last year, but aside from perhaps getting to take some plays off running the team at the point*, this intuition wasn't correct.


*A likely meaningful impact, but very difficult to quantify

Zags11
01-07-2018, 02:13 PM
Perkins is a good enough PG and also shooting 46% from the 3 as well.

BurgessEraZag
01-07-2018, 02:24 PM
Great analysis MGK. I've missed you as I suspect others have too.
Glad you are back. Keep it coming. I hope you don't have a big "O" on your back window, but I still like your posts.

Markburn1
01-08-2018, 10:03 AM
I enjoy watching Perkins. I get what you are aiming at here, but comparing Perkins to Goss is unfair.

What is lacking in this years team is leadership. Karnowski led the bigs last year and Goss led the team as a whole.

Ask yourself this. If you are locked in a game that demands several possessions go your way, would you rather have NWG with the ball directing traffic and making plays for himself or others, or would you rather have Perk in charge.

Perkins is still growing and someone else may emerge with leadership qualities as the team moves forward. Right now, there is nobody with the mindset to take over a game and will the team to a win. Having six guys in double figures sounds great in theory, but every great team has at least one guy that is willing to take over and put the team on his back.

These guys are fun to watch for me because they have the potential to be very, very good and I'm waiting for someone to say, ENOUGH, follow me boys.

hondo
01-08-2018, 10:23 AM
"Josh was willing to take a back seat last yr for the good of the team"
And much of the success of last year's team was due to chemistry. IMHO Josh gets far too little credit for that sacrifice and for being a team first guy. I think that the majority of college pgs in Josh's situation that year would have sulked to the detriment of the team. As DuPont often said "Better living through chemistry"

CDC84
01-08-2018, 10:32 AM
The thing that made Nigel great was what one NBA executive said about him: "He may not play in our league, but I would give anything to have a NBA level player in this draft with the balls that he has."

NWG is about as tough as they come on the basketball floor.

webspinnre
01-08-2018, 11:31 AM
I don't know if people remember, but there's a long history of being critical of some of our guards and not others. Lots of people criticized Pargo all of the time too. I'm much more concerned about our lack of a backup point guard than I am about our starting point guard.

TexasZagFan
01-08-2018, 11:40 AM
The thing that made Nigel great was what one NBA executive said about him: "He may not play in our league, but I would give anything to have a NBA level player in this draft with the balls that he has."

NWG is about as tough as they come on the basketball floor.

CDC, I'm not at all worried about the toughness of this year's team (and I'm not implying you're saying that about our team). It's the experience level this year, though it's mitigated by the growth we've seen with Corey, Zach, Jacob, and of course, Rui. Losing Shem, Jordan, and Nigel was a big hit to the experience factor.

krozman
01-08-2018, 11:42 AM
I don't know if people remember, but there's a long history of being critical of some of our guards and not others. Lots of people criticized Pargo all of the time too. I'm much more concerned about our lack of a backup point guard than I am about our starting point guard.

Meech comes to mind more than any other PG in the post 1997 era. I don't see Perkins that way. I just think he's streaky. Some games he's hitting every possession like a master. Then, sometimes when it matters most, he hits 3 straight clunkers and you wanna pull your hair out. I think the numbers are averaging well for him in the long run if he keeps it up though.

former1dog
01-08-2018, 11:57 AM
What bugs me about the Perkins criticism is the selective memories of the critics.


Arguably the most important performance of any season is in the last game of that season and nearly all of the great Gonzaga point guards have one thing in common in those games, they stunk!

Dickau took 24 shots, shooting 29% in a stinker against Wyoming to end his Gonzaga career. The year before he turned the ball over 5 times against Michigan State in the Sweet 16.


In the last game of Kevin Pangos' career he scored 4 points and had 3 turnovers vs 0 assists despite playing the entire game.

Matt Bouldin finished his career against Syracuse shooting 23%.

Santangelo, arguably my favorite player, shot 23% overall in his final game. He shot 1-7 for three.

Stepp in each of his four last games of the season shot 27%, 7.7%, 38%(great game against Arizona, but he did miss that bunny) and 17% ..... not a great showing for a career 42% shooter.


Meanwhile, Perkins in his 2 elimination games compared very favorably to his season averages. Against Syracuse in the Sweet 16 he scored 8 (averaged 10 points) while shooting 38% (50% from 3) and dished out 6 assists against 2 turnovers.

In Last year's championship game Perkins scored 13 on 38% shooting with 3 assists and 2 turnovers. So, comparing Perkins in the big games versus his averages and the other guys against there's, who's more consistent?

TexasZagFan
01-08-2018, 12:16 PM
F1d, you just had to bring up that Wyoming game, didn't you? lol

maynard g krebs
01-08-2018, 04:28 PM
I cant speak for Maynard, but I dont think his point is that Josh is a better player than NWG, I think his point is that Josh is a solid pg and they both they had similar numbers, and both had positive impact on their respective teams...just in different ways. I am sure the posts on this board yesterday that suggested Few needs to bring in another pg next year to get Josh off the ball is what prompted Maynards post

I think what made NWG an all american and why he is so successful now playing in Europe is that he has a feel for the game and BBIQ that you cant coach. Not a huge pg, nor very quick or explosive, but he always could create space for that unstoppable floater and while not a great shooter was streaky and when he was on, he would hunt his shot and make several in a row while he was feeling it.

Also, I wouldn't characterize NWG as a great play maker or a pass first type of guard. He was more of a scoring pg that looked to get his shot first. Nothing wrong with that either, Westbrook, Irving. IT, and most of the great pg's in the NBA today are score first pgs. The John Stockton/Magic Johnson type of pass first pgs seen to be a thing of the past

Exactly on all counts. And not just the thread a few days ago, but it's been an ongoing theme. My take is that the anti-Perk side has been pretty irrational. It's really a matter of stylistic preference when comparing diff pg's imo, and when opinions differ, the data can be instructive.

Half way through the season, the Kenpom offensive rating for the last 2 seasons is almost identical at just over 118, and I think no one would suggest that this year's interior group of 4 is as strong as last years. So the question becomes, why is this year's team, objectively, doing just as well overall offensively as last year's? My subjective take is that Josh has better court vision and puts others in better position to score, whether by the assist or by the pass to the opposite side that moves the defense and gets it off balance, putting other guards/wings in a position to score more easily, or for opposite side entry to a less well guarded post.

And Matthews' and Perk's production was both down substantially from their previous seasons in 16-17, when an incremental rise could be expected w/ experience; Melson's didn't improve either. My subjective opinion, based on the above, as well as All-Pac Andrews' sr year at UW v his years w/ NWG, is that if Josh was replaced w/ NWG, Norvell and Kispert wouldn't be getting enough opportunities to develop the rhythm they have. JMO.

And as to one poster's suggestion, never backed up by anything other than subjective opinion, that NWG "managed the game" better. He dominated a lot of games scoring, and his elite rebounding and fantastic defense certainly won some games that could have been lost, helping greatly to get to the one seed and advantageous route to the f4. But- and this is to the post above re selective memory- in the NCAA tourney, NWG increased his fg attempts per game from 10.9 in the first 32 games to 15.7 in the NCAA tourney, and his fg% dropped from around 52 to 35 (33 for 94 in the tourney, an average of 5.5 makes in 15.7 attempts over 6 games). (In addition, his ft% dropped from around 90 to 68 in the tourney 26 for 38). In the tourney, he was facing tougher defenses on his drives and floaters, hence the enormous drop in fg%, and he chose to double down on forcing the issue rather than adapting imo.

One could look at the above in two ways, subjectively. Either he wanted desperately to put the team on his back and win, and forced a lot of shots as a result, or he was trying to impress scouts, given his one and done at GU goal. I'd never claim it's the latter, but it's one or the other. I guess my point is that making a saint out of NWG and a failure out of Josh is beyond nonsensical, and I felt the conversation needed another voice on the side of reason.

maynard g krebs
01-08-2018, 04:48 PM
Very interesting perspective. Sure is one way to spin things. It's fascinating to me how a given player can be terrible one game and GU Unit the next. Tillie, JP, J3 have all been there.

Curious as to what you consider "spin" (Def as a form of propaganda, based on biased opinion per wiki). I tried to delineate what was objective from what is my opinion. NWG was 2-10 w/ 5 t0's in the WVA game, and 5/17 v UNC. Or his opening tourney game v N Dak or whoever it was.

How would you define terrible, and when has Josh been worse? Lol. I think it might take a bit of "spin" to answer that one in a way that successfully backs up your post.

seacatfan
01-08-2018, 05:14 PM
Well since it was already brought up, I'll never forget Stepp's horrific performance his last game as a Zag. I was at that game. He just wouldn't quit shooting, and he couldn't hit a shot to save his life. 3-18 overall and 1-12 behind the arc. The really bad calls against Ronny that kept him on the bench almost the whole game really put GU's back against the wall, but Stepp's performance eliminated any chance they might have had to win.

MontanaCoyote
01-08-2018, 07:19 PM
CDC, I'm not at all worried about the toughness of this year's team (and I'm not implying you're saying that about our team). It's the experience level this year, though it's mitigated by the growth we've seen with Corey, Zach, Jacob, and of course, Rui. Losing Shem, Jordan, and Nigel was a big hit to the experience factor.

That's a bus load of experience alright. Throw in the intangibles that talented troika brought to the team and you'd need a couple buses, maybe even more.

JPtheBeasta
01-08-2018, 10:22 PM
What bugs me about the Perkins criticism is the selective memories of the critics.


Arguably the most important performance of any season is in the last game of that season and nearly all of the great Gonzaga point guards have one thing in common in those games, they stunk!

Dickau took 24 shots, shooting 29% in a stinker against Wyoming to end his Gonzaga career. The year before he turned the ball over 5 times against Michigan State in the Sweet 16.


In the last game of Kevin Pangos' career he scored 4 points and had 3 turnovers vs 0 assists despite playing the entire game.

Matt Bouldin finished his career against Syracuse shooting 23%.

Santangelo, arguably my favorite player, shot 23% overall in his final game. He shot 1-7 for three.

Stepp in each of his four last games of the season shot 27%, 7.7%, 38%(great game against Arizona, but he did miss that bunny) and 17% ..... not a great showing for a career 42% shooter.


Meanwhile, Perkins in his 2 elimination games compared very favorably to his season averages. Against Syracuse in the Sweet 16 he scored 8 (averaged 10 points) while shooting 38% (50% from 3) and dished out 6 assists against 2 turnovers.

In Last year's championship game Perkins scored 13 on 38% shooting with 3 assists and 2 turnovers. So, comparing Perkins in the big games versus his averages and the other guys against there's, who's more consistent?

Interesting walk down memory lane. Thanks for your insightful post.

Zagger
01-09-2018, 07:18 AM
.....Perkins is still growing and someone else may emerge with leadership qualities as the team moves forward. Right now, there is nobody with the mindset to take over a game and will the team to a win. Having six guys in double figures sounds great in theory, but every great team has at least one guy that is willing to take over and put the team on his back.

These guys are fun to watch for me because they have the potential to be very, very good and I'm waiting for someone to say, ENOUGH, follow me boys.

I believe the Zags will effectively achieve this as a team (band of brothers) if not through an easily identifiable individual leader. It could even be via Few. I feel these Zags are one of the most unique and diverse bunch of Zags yet and there's quite a bit of basketball to play before games past Vegas. I feel they simply need more games under their collective belts to develop the synergy they'll need to go deep into March. And that we're beginning to see that synergy develop game by game through the improvements of each teammate.

former1dog
01-09-2018, 07:59 AM
Interesting walk down memory lane. Thanks for your insightful post.

You're welcome and thanks for your kind words.

amaronizag
01-09-2018, 09:19 AM
When I look at all of the poor stats and percentages logged by our best players in those season ending games over the years, it tells me one thing, we were playing against the best talent in America. Those games proved we weren't the best in the nation and we got beat. No disgrace in that. The best team won. I'm just proud we were there and competed with the best. Last year we came really close to proving we were the best. I doubt we can go as far this year as last, but it will be a fun ride regardless. Next year?? Who knows?? Maybe. That's why we watch.

Zags11
01-09-2018, 09:53 AM
Interesting walk down memory lane. Thanks for your insightful post.

Yep I remember all those. Sigh lol.

hooter73
01-09-2018, 10:13 AM
Pick one of the past or current point guards to lead a team.


Last year we had our answer.

johno
01-09-2018, 11:35 AM
What bugs me about the Perkins criticism is the selective memories of the critics.


Arguably the most important performance of any season is in the last game of that season and nearly all of the great Gonzaga point guards have one thing in common in those games, they stunk!

Dickau took 24 shots, shooting 29% in a stinker against Wyoming to end his Gonzaga career. The year before he turned the ball over 5 times against Michigan State in the Sweet 16.


In the last game of Kevin Pangos' career he scored 4 points and had 3 turnovers vs 0 assists despite playing the entire game.

Matt Bouldin finished his career against Syracuse shooting 23%.

Santangelo, arguably my favorite player, shot 23% overall in his final game. He shot 1-7 for three.

Stepp in each of his four last games of the season shot 27%, 7.7%, 38%(great game against Arizona, but he did miss that bunny) and 17% ..... not a great showing for a career 42% shooter.


Meanwhile, Perkins in his 2 elimination games compared very favorably to his season averages. Against Syracuse in the Sweet 16 he scored 8 (averaged 10 points) while shooting 38% (50% from 3) and dished out 6 assists against 2 turnovers.

In Last year's championship game Perkins scored 13 on 38% shooting with 3 assists and 2 turnovers. So, comparing Perkins in the big games versus his averages and the other guys against there's, who's more consistent?

Yikes, I am in awe - good post!.

seacatfan
01-09-2018, 01:12 PM
When I look at all of the poor stats and percentages logged by our best players in those season ending games over the years, it tells me one thing, we were playing against the best talent in America. Those games proved we weren't the best in the nation and we got beat. No disgrace in that. The best team won. I'm just proud we were there and competed with the best. Last year we came really close to proving we were the best. I doubt we can go as far this year as last, but it will be a fun ride regardless. Next year?? Who knows?? Maybe. That's why we watch.

Wyoming and Nevada weren't remotely close to the best or most talented teams in the country when they beat the Zags in the Tourney. Quick, name 1 player from Wyoming from that season (without Google). I can just about guarantee there wasn't a single NBA guy on the roster. I think Snyder and Fazekas from Nevada at least got a cup of coffee in the League anyway.

To be fair they did lose to the eventual National Champs several times--Duke, Carolina X2, UConn. Several other times the team they lost to lost their next game.

SWZag
01-09-2018, 01:32 PM
Wyoming and Nevada weren't remotely close to the best or most talented teams in the country when they beat the Zags in the Tourney. Quick, name 1 player from Wyoming from that season (without Google). I can just about guarantee there wasn't a single NBA guy on the roster. I think Snyder and Fazekas from Nevada at least got a cup of coffee in the League anyway.

I remember following Wyoming for a number of years because I was interested in going to school there, which I didn't.

Josh Davis. Was an Honorable Mention All-American. Played a couple years in the NBA and many years in other leagues.
Several other good players like Marcus Bailey, Jason Straight and Donta Richardson. I think they all played professionally. I haven't followed Wyoming for a number of years now.

JPtheBeasta
01-09-2018, 02:02 PM
Pick one of the past or current point guards to lead a team.


Last year we had our answer.

For this team, I’ll stand in solidarity with the guy we have and pick Perkins. For fun, I would love to see how Stepp or Santangelo would do now with the players in this roster.

seacatfan
01-09-2018, 02:15 PM
I remember following Wyoming for a number of years because I was interested in going to school there, which I didn't.

Josh Davis. Was an Honorable Mention All-American. Played a couple years in the NBA and many years in other leagues.
Several other good players like Marcus Bailey, Jason Straight and Donta Richardson. I think they all played professionally. I haven't followed Wyoming for a number of years now.

You got me. I remember the Nevada team fairly well, but not Wyoming at all.


Saw Wyoming years later, in 2015 in Key Arena. They were quickly eliminated. Larry Nance, Jr. from that team is hanging around the NBA. The thing I remember most about the game is the 2 Wyoming fans sitting directly in front of my dad and I that were wearing full on cowboy hats that obstructed about 50% of our view of the court. We asked them to please remove the hats so we could see. They did, but they seemed a bit put out. I don't see many cowboy hats in Seattle (I'm thinking that was the first time ever).

hooter73
01-09-2018, 04:32 PM
For this team, I’ll stand in solidarity with the guy we have and pick Perkins. For fun, I would love to see how Stepp or Santangelo would do now with the players in this roster.

For a while I was starting to wonder if GU hadn’t moved forward to a point where our stars of old wouldn’t have been able to make the modern team. I no longer think that.

WallaWallaZag
01-09-2018, 09:48 PM
for all those pining for point guards of zag past...if you believe defense gets you to final fours, perkins is a much better defender than most of them...