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Reborn
01-04-2018, 09:17 PM
Gonzaga 89
Pepp 59

Just what we thought. And what I was hoping to see, great play from our freshmen + Rui who didn't play much last year. Larsen got ten. Rui got 12. Larsen got 9 and and Norvell got 10 and Wade 4. These guys are the reason I enjoy watching the Zags play.

Don't enjoy Perkins or Melson. The two starting guards combine for 3-14. Perkins made all three of the three shots made. Melson didn't score. Perkins got his late in second half when the game was technically over. Thank God we have the bench that we do. Bench scores 36 points again. Jesse Wade hit a three and got two steals. His defense was just awesome. I enjoyed watching him play.....on the other hand Perkins played absolutely no defense tonight. He was just horrible. My happiest moment during the game was when he was on the bench. Good to see Tillie and Williams playing good again. I enjoyed watching them. I think Williams is getting out of his funk. Tillie got 22 and Williams 13. However Williams only got two rebound. Kispert and Larsen led the Zags in rebounding with 8 and Rui got 6. Kispert is showing he's a very good rebounder. Kispert almost gets a double-double coming in off the bench. That's impressive.

TexasZagFan
01-04-2018, 09:21 PM
Looks like Abe got to you on Perks. :lmao:

Josh did look kind of bored tonight. I’m just glad no one was injured on Pepperdine’s court.

sittingon50
01-04-2018, 09:41 PM
I’m just glad no one was injured on Pepperdine’s court.

Was kinda' lookin' like the Zags game in Okinawa for awhile, wasn't it?

JPtheBeasta
01-04-2018, 09:48 PM
Rui showed some good feel for passing tonight. I’m not worried when he touches the ball on offense anymore, and he seems to be in the right spots more on defense. He’s come a long way.

Wade seems to drift on his jump shot ands need a more consistent lift off, as the good shooters tend to jump straight up and land very close to where they take off from.

Kispert was missed on the offensive glass during his injury.

The offense continues to look good when Larsen is in there.

Melson needs to hunt his shot more.

Tillie looked good again against a lesser opponent. I would like to seem him step up against a longer, more athletic group- in other words, when we really need him.

JW3 looked better but not great. His effort looked good and he needed a few more shots to fall.

JPtheBeasta
01-04-2018, 09:50 PM
Was kinda' lookin' like the Zags game in Okinawa for awhile, wasn't it?

+1

That was a weird slippery stretch at the beginning of the game.

GorgeZag
01-04-2018, 09:59 PM
Really wish Wade would get more than 5 minutes in these blowout games.

jazzdelmar
01-05-2018, 03:39 AM
Only 5 mins for Wade in that train wreck of a game?

Zagger
01-05-2018, 04:33 AM
Good for Tillie - Not-so-good for Melson. Was hoping Silas would be lighting things up in WCC play. Even on D he didn't look very comfortable. Maybe the floor had something to do with it - but, this is Melson's last season as a Zag. 4 shots in 24 mins (zero points). Only players taking fewer shots were Wade, Jones and Beach. I'm hoping Silas can dial in his shot better + take more of them.

I do like that Larsen is getting more and more comfy on the floor :)

RenoZag
01-05-2018, 05:05 AM
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2018/jan/04/gonzagas-bigs-pave-way-in-easy-win-over-pepperdine/#/0

Jim Meehan's Game Story


The Zags’ first 22 points came from their four bigs. Their first points by a guard came with 6:38 left in the half when Josh Perkins drove for a layup.

“Early on Rui and Larsen really helped us,” Few said. “They figured out you could attack the offensive boards, got us some extra possessions and some putbacks, and kept the defensive momentum going that the starters created.”

ZagsObserver
01-05-2018, 05:46 AM
Good for Tillie - Not-so-good for Melson. Was hoping Silas would be lighting things up in WCC play. Even on D he didn't look very comfortable. Maybe the floor had something to do with it - but, this is Melson's last season as a Zag. 4 shots in 24 mins (zero points). Only players taking fewer shots were Wade, Jones and Beach. I'm hoping Silas can dial in his shot better + take more of them.

I do like that Larsen is getting more and more comfy on the floor :)

I’m not sure I want Melson jacking up more shots. At 40 percent, he is likely the poorest shooter on the floor for the Zags. If he can drive it for a bucket, great. If he’s wide open, great. Otherwise, pass.

Reborn
01-05-2018, 06:08 AM
Looks like Abe got to you on Perks. :lmao:

Josh did look kind of bored tonight. I’m just glad no one was injured on Pepperdine’s court.

Josh worries me. Not so much in conference play, just overall. He is so inconsistent in shooting, but mostly he is consistently a big turnover problem. My feelings right now is that if it's him leading this team in the NCAA Tournament we, as fans, are going to be disappointed. I am shocked that Few isn't seeing this. He is way too careless with the basketball to be effective. Yes he is a good shooter, and Melson is not. Melson is not turning the ball over as Perkins does. Why not have them switch roles on offense. How about using Wade more. I hope Few wakes up. But I doubt that he will.

vandalzag
01-05-2018, 06:09 AM
Only 5 mins for Wade in that train wreck of a game?

Unless there is there is a physical issue it does not look like the staff is comfortable with him running extended minutes. Understanding it is a limited sample size but he does not appear to be the PG of the future.

jazzdelmar
01-05-2018, 06:11 AM
Unless there is there is a physical issue it does not look like the staff is comfortable with him running extended minutes. Understanding it is a limited sample size but he does not appear to be the PG of the future.

No, he sure does not.....

jazzdelmar
01-05-2018, 06:13 AM
Josh worries me. Not so much in conference play, just overall. He is so inconsistent in shooting, but mostly he is consistently a big turnover problem. My feelings right now is that if it's him leading this team in the NCAA Tournament we, as fans, are going to be disappointed. I am shocked that Few isn't seeing this. He is way too careless with the basketball to be effective. Yes he is a good shooter, and Melson is not. Melson is not turning the ball over as Perkins does. Why not have them switch roles on offense. How about using Wade more. I hope Few wakes up. But I doubt that he will.

3-10, 4 TOs, 5 Asts....not a great stat line. But what can Few do? Wade clearly is either hurt, not ready or a major recruiting whiff.

Now this was a GU Pep game for the memory bank. Westphal's kid was pretty good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0PEitUxhZs

Zagger
01-05-2018, 06:19 AM
I’m not sure I want Melson jacking up more shots. At 40 percent, he is likely the poorest shooter on the floor for the Zags. If he can drive it for a bucket, great. If he’s wide open, great. Otherwise, pass.

Yeah, you're right. I just keep hoping he starts making them more often than not. Generally Norvell takes some time to heat up. I'd like to think that the same goes for Silas. I feel that if the team is going to go far in March it'll take exceptional play by Silas, Rui and Larsen to compliment the rest of the usual suspects on Zag scoring. I see Rui and Larsen picking things up on offense - not so much on Silas. Lots of BB to be played before March though. And, Silas is a key to Zag D. He certainly is a big positive factor there so I shouldn't be too concerned about his offense - at least until March :)

thespywhozaggedme
01-05-2018, 06:20 AM
These games are a waste of time for all parties involved. We've really gotta get outta this conference.

Zagger
01-05-2018, 06:28 AM
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2018/jan/04/gonzagas-bigs-pave-way-in-easy-win-over-pepperdine/#/0
Jim Meehan's Game Story


The Zags’ first 22 points came from their four bigs.....

They went on to score 56 points where Silas, Perks, Norvell and Kispert totaled 27. I was surprised by this turnaround as of late.

TacomaZAG
01-05-2018, 06:35 AM
3-10, 4 TOs, 5 Asts....not a great stat line. But what can Few do? Wade clearly is either hurt, not ready or a major recruiting whiff.

Now this was a GU Pep game for the memory bank. Westphal's kid was pretty good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0PEitUxhZs

Agree Jazz, Few's hands are tied for this year and probably next as well. All the guards currently in the program (save Wade) are either combo guards or shooting guards. I just don't see Wade running the show in the foreseeable future, so it's Josh for this year and probably next as well. I'm not as sour on Josh as others on this board, I just wish he would quit trying to make the ESPN Highlight Reel pass and just make the simple pass. He is an elite shooter, especially from 3, so he needs to keep hunting his shot. His TO's are the issue to me, as are some of his entry passes into the post. Not sure what is up with Melson, but he is the only decent perimeter defender currently in the rotation, so he needs minutes at least as a defender. Zach is a volume shooter, needs to keep hunting his shot as well. Corey is getting healthy and starting to hunt his shot as well. Interesting pieces to this puzzle, no easy answers, just like most elite programs.

Agree with others on this thread, the guys looked bored last night. It must be hard getting up for a road game when you know you are going to win by 20+, and the building you are going to play in will be absolutely DEAD, as in absolutely no energy.

So it goes in the WCC. IMHO Few's hands are tied here as well, as in nowhere to go..........

Enjoy the ride, we've all been spoiled the last 18 years.

Go ZAGS

GonzagasaurusFlex
01-05-2018, 06:36 AM
Excited to see Tillie, Rui and Larsen all have strong showings. When Tillie and Rui play like alpha males, fully invested and focused, Zags go from good to very good...even great some game(s) when the guards knock down 3’s.

raise the zag
01-05-2018, 06:38 AM
Wade clearly is either hurt, not ready or a major recruiting whiff.

At the end of the day, Wade is a high level shooter yet the truth is he may never be big enough, quick enough, or physically strong enough to be a lead guard on a Top-15 type team.

Wade could always be a contributor here, his shot alone makes him valid and dangerous. He is a hard worker who is smart on the court, and can develop into a spot shooter as the years go on, yet he's not taking over the reigns of this program.

Given Perkins inconsistency, leadership qualities or lack thereof, and occasional inexplicable play, we are all hoping, wishing, even seeking the best qualities of Josh's only back-up.

Its just not there with Jesse. He is very talented basketball player, yet not enough natural qualities, fluidity, feel, IT, to be a 35 minute player for today's Zags. Maybe not even in previous years. Shortcomings have been overlooked by either size (Bouldin & Gray were 6'5"), quickness (Stockton & Raivio), strength (Pargo), even speed (Goodson), or experience & 3pt shot (Perkins).

Wade lacks nearly all these, save 3pt shot, and heady play.

Listen, Jesse Wade is good enough to play here, but not our PG of the future. He is more suited as a starter for a Utah St type team and player (recruited big time by them and Harvard and Princeton).

Wade was a 3-star, 174lb PG prospect given his shooting and scoring ability, which suits him (by scout, 247, rivals). He never received an offer from BYU or any Top-50 school, save Gonzaga. He was a lower ranked, and less recruited, less strong version of Kevin Pangos (although he was recruited by numerous Power 5 teams, including many Big 10 teams, and Syracuse also showed strong interest).

Wade could be a formidable player for endless D1 teams, and that isn't a knock on his ability, rather his style, build, and ability. Remember, he is already 21 yrs old, and outside gaining some strength, is who he is...

I hope he sticks around, as he'll log some minutes here and there, and a threat to knock some 3's (when open), but shooting over people isn't going to happen at this level at 6'0" as he did in HS.

jazzdelmar
01-05-2018, 06:43 AM
At the end of the day, Wade is a high level shooter yet the truth is he may never be big enough, quick enough, or physically strong enough to be a lead guard on a Top-15 type team.

Wade could always be a contributor here, his shot alone makes him valid and dangerous. He is a hard worker who is smart on the court, and can develop into a spot shooter as the years go on, yet he's not taking over the reigns of this program.

Given Perkins inconsistency, leadership qualities or lack thereof, and occasionally inexplicably play, we are all hoping, wishing, even seeking the best qualities of Josh's only back-up.

Its just not there with Jesse. He is very talented basketball player, yet not enough natural qualities, fluidity, feel, IT, to be a 35 minute player for today's Zags. Maybe not even in previous years. Shortcomings have been overlooked by either size (Bouldin & Gray were 6'5"), quickness (Stockton & Raivio), strength (Pargo), even speed (Goodson), or experience & 3pt shot (Perkins).

Wade lacks nearly all these, save 3pt shot, and heady play.

Listen, Jesse Wade is good enough to play here, but not our PG of the future. He is more suited as a starter for a Utah St type team and player (recruited big time by them and Harvard and Princeton).

Wade was a 3-star, 174lb PG prospect given his shooting and scoring ability, which suits him (by scout, 247, rivals). He never received an offer from BYU or any Top-50 school, save Gonzaga. He was a lower ranked, and less recruited, less strong version of Kevin Pangos (although he was recruited by numerous Power 5 teams, including many Big 10 teams, and Syracuse also showed strong interest).

Wade could be a formidable player for endless D1 teams, and that isn't a knock on his ability, rather his style, build, and ability. Remember, he is already 21 yrs old, and outside gaining some strength, is who he is...

I hope he sticks around, as he'll log some minutes here and there, and a threat to knock some 3's (when open), but shooting over people isn't going to happen at this level at 6'0" as he did in HS.

Wade would not be a premium player at Princeton, Harvard or a school like Davidson. I'm afraid it would have to be lower quartile D1 or D2/D3. Just not there for him....He would actually not be a major contributor at most of the wretched WCC schools we are plowing through this year.

raise the zag
01-05-2018, 06:56 AM
Wade would not be a premium player at Princeton, Harvard or a school like Davidson. I'm afraid it would have to be lower quartile D1 or D2/D3. Just not there for him....He would actually not be a major contributor at most of the wretched WCC schools we are plowing through this year.

Not one of those WCC schools even looked at him, mostly Weber St, Utah St, UCSB, some East Coast Ivy Leagues, etc.

If the Zags don't recruit over him, at PG, then we could be held back for years to come. Currently, no one in the stables, or on the 2018 recruiting horizon. Not 'til 2019 at the earliest, unless a transfer is in the mix.

Again, these are just opinions being shared. Even Perkins showed signs of life as a fresh faced freshman, he could find lanes, and looked like he belonged or could play (maybe not consistent but the ability/attributes/IT was there). Even a 19 yr old Stockton showed flashes as a RS freshman, the quickness to blow by, the handles, the recognition of short comings, the fluidity around the court, not to mention him dunking with ease in warm-ups. That's just NOT Jesse Wade, although good kid, good shot, and smart player, he is a fit for a highly structured offense who will find him open looks.

strikenowhere
01-05-2018, 07:08 AM
Not one of those WCC schools even looked at him, mostly Weber St, Utah St, UCSB, some East Coast Ivy Leagues, etc.

If the Zags don't recruit over him, at PG, then we could be held back for years to come. Currently, no one in the stables, or on the 2018 recruiting horizon. Not 'til 2019 at the earliest, unless a transfer is in the mix.

Again, these are just opinions being shared. Even Perkins showed signs of life as a fresh faced freshman, he could find lanes, and looked like he belonged or could play (maybe not consistent but the ability/attributes/IT was there). Even a 19 yr old Stockton showed flashes as a RS freshman, the quickness to blow by, the handles, the recognition of short comings, the fluidity around the court, not to mention him dunking with ease in warm-ups. That's just NOT Jesse Wade, although good kid, good shot, and smart player, he is a fit for a highly structured offense who will find him open looks.

Uh oh - do we need to start the transfer clock now?

cggonzaga
01-05-2018, 07:21 AM
I sure wish we could go back to the old days when we’d stomp WCC teams by 30-50 points...oh wait.

Guess this is what a final four does to a fan base. Can’t be happy with winning if the game isn’t perfectly played and every player doesn’t have his best game every time out. We have 7 guys essentially averaging double digit scoring. We’re going to have a guy or two not be able to reach his average in every game. This is a great “problem” to have people. I thought the defensive effort was great last night. Keep improving young Zags!

hooter73
01-05-2018, 07:26 AM
I am still a believer. Jesse is no wide open spot up shooter. He creates his shot, with a hand in his face, against any type of player. The kid has (had) a killer instinct the like of which we have lacked from many players for a few years now. Being away from the game for two years didn't help, I'll admit that. His shoulder injury didn't help matters either as it kept him out of things for the first third of the season and Few is known to have his rotations pretty well set by ten games in. At this point though I am down to hoping he just needs more and more run to really charge into things. In his few minutes here and there though, we arent quite seeing the 'IT' that got him recruited by GU and many other big time schools. Its hard to judge anyone against the type of competition Pepperdine gave us last night, thats why I wasnt very impressed with Tillie's gaudy numbers. Do that against the top 25 teams every time we play them then I'll be impressed. Jesse hit on his third shot from 3, had two nice steals, and against SDSU went in cold at the very end of the game and drained a heck of a shot. He CAN play. I almost guarantee there are other things happening that the fans will just never hear about, but when the program needs high level play from 1 through 12, my admiration for the young man and his abilities has to be tempered at some point. I dont know if Jesse is a starting guard next year, but I also dont know if Ayayi with all of his 170 pounds will be the one we need to continue to put the program into late March. We seem to have recruited like it was 2007, not 2017. The program has evolved and we dont have the constant stream of high level guards to show for it... so maybe it hasnt. I dont know.

jazzdelmar
01-05-2018, 07:28 AM
Not one of those WCC schools even looked at him, mostly Weber St, Utah St, UCSB, some East Coast Ivy Leagues, etc.

If the Zags don't recruit over him, at PG, then we could be held back for years to come. Currently, no one in the stables, or on the 2018 recruiting horizon. Not 'til 2019 at the earliest, unless a transfer is in the mix.

Again, these are just opinions being shared. Even Perkins showed signs of life as a fresh faced freshman, he could find lanes, and looked like he belonged or could play (maybe not consistent but the ability/attributes/IT was there). Even a 19 yr old Stockton showed flashes as a RS freshman, the quickness to blow by, the handles, the recognition of short comings, the fluidity around the court, not to mention him dunking with ease in warm-ups. That's just NOT Jesse Wade, although good kid, good shot, and smart player, he is a fit for a highly structured offense who will find him open looks.

To supplement flawed JP, Zags reaped two years of PG gems via transfer w Mac and NWG, and to a lesser extent Mathews. This year, bubkis. Maybe next year another catch. Are we dismissing Ayayi?

TexasZagFan
01-05-2018, 07:41 AM
Wade would not be a premium player at Princeton, Harvard or a school like Davidson. I'm afraid it would have to be lower quartile D1 or D2/D3. Just not there for him....He would actually not be a major contributor at most of the wretched WCC schools we are plowing through this year.

You may be right, jazz. I’m preaching more patience. First year of Division I basketball, he’s finding his way.

He’s stuck at the end of the rotation with Jeremy for now. Corey and Zach are much further along in their development than Jesse, too.

This is the year Josh should have upped his game, he needs to do that now. Trouble is, there’s no competition for the point guard slot this year. I’ll keep quiet until we play SMC.

thespywhozaggedme
01-05-2018, 07:51 AM
Wade would not be a premium player at Princeton, Harvard or a school like Davidson. I'm afraid it would have to be lower quartile D1 or D2/D3. Just not there for him....He would actually not be a major contributor at most of the wretched WCC schools we are plowing through this year.

Honest question for you, and a challenge for you to be a little reflective; do you think every player on the roster is going to be, or supposed to be, a star? In other words, you do realize that some players are just going to be role playing bench depth, and that's ok, right? Your lamentations seem a bit silly at times.

jazzdelmar
01-05-2018, 07:58 AM
Honest question for you, and a challenge for you to be a little reflective; do you think every player on the roster is going to be, or supposed to be, a star? In other words, you do realize that some players are just going to be role playing bench depth, and that's ok, right? Your lamentations seem a bit silly at times.

Of course not. But every player at the GU level should be a D1 contributor when called upon. Clearly not happening w Wade. Few only found 5 mins for him vs wretched Pep. Tough business, Spy. Sometimes you whiff on a kid.....BTW, I am far from the only lamenter w respect to Wade and the PG famine, so why single me out? Look around first.

Birddog
01-05-2018, 08:10 AM
At the end of the day, Wade is a high level shooter yet the truth is he may never be big enough, quick enough, or physically strong enough to be a lead guard on a Top-15 type team.

Wade could always be a contributor here, his shot alone makes him valid and dangerous. He is a hard worker who is smart on the court, and can develop into a spot shooter as the years go on, yet he's not taking over the reigns of this program.

Given Perkins inconsistency, leadership qualities or lack thereof, and occasional inexplicable play, we are all hoping, wishing, even seeking the best qualities of Josh's only back-up.

Its just not there with Jesse. He is very talented basketball player, yet not enough natural qualities, fluidity, feel, IT, to be a 35 minute player for today's Zags. Maybe not even in previous years. Shortcomings have been overlooked by either size (Bouldin & Gray were 6'5"), quickness (Stockton & Raivio), strength (Pargo), even speed (Goodson), or experience & 3pt shot (Perkins).

Wade lacks nearly all these, save 3pt shot, and heady play.

Listen, Jesse Wade is good enough to play here, but not our PG of the future. He is more suited as a starter for a Utah St type team and player (recruited big time by them and Harvard and Princeton).

Wade was a 3-star, 174lb PG prospect given his shooting and scoring ability, which suits him (by scout, 247, rivals). He never received an offer from BYU or any Top-50 school, save Gonzaga. He was a lower ranked, and less recruited, less strong version of Kevin Pangos (although he was recruited by numerous Power 5 teams, including many Big 10 teams, and Syracuse also showed strong interest).

Wade could be a formidable player for endless D1 teams, and that isn't a knock on his ability, rather his style, build, and ability. Remember, he is already 21 yrs old, and outside gaining some strength, is who he is...

I hope he sticks around, as he'll log some minutes here and there, and a threat to knock some 3's (when open), but shooting over people isn't going to happen at this level at 6'0" as he did in HS.

Not sure what kinda viewer you're seeing this through. Wade has played in 12 games and totaled 70 mins. In that time he is 8 of 21 .381 FG, 7 of 19 .368 3pt, 1 of 3 FT, 5 RB, 3A, 2 TO, and 5 Stls. Aside from the steals, those numbers are pretty lame IMO, certainly nothing to warrant future promise, again IMO. BTW,according to GoZags.com he was only offered by GU,Utah St, USF and UC Riverside

hooter73
01-05-2018, 08:15 AM
Not sure what kinda viewer you're seeing this through. Wade has played in 12 games and totaled 70 mins. In that time he is 8 of 21 .381 FG, 7 of 19 .368 3pt, 1 of 3 FT, 5 RB, 3A, 2 TO, and 5 Stls. Aside from the steals, those numbers are pretty lame IMO, certainly nothing to warrant future promise, again IMO. BTW,according to GoZags.com he was only offered by GU,Utah St, USF and UC Riverside

~6 minutes a game average... and reality is 30 seconds for 10 games and 5 minutes a game of the other two, no one is going to have great numbers.





If you discount Rui last year lol

Zags11
01-05-2018, 08:17 AM
Ahhh I feel bad for any team who follows up the team that went farthest in that programs history.

If you expect gonzaga to make the final 4 every yr or your gonna be disappointed, well expect to be disappointed most your life. The cool thing and bad thing if you finally get a elite team in college is they move on. You enjoy them(or don't) for the 2-4 years you have the players and you move on. You usually remember the good more then the bad just like anything in life.

This team isn't F4 material most likely but they could shock me. However they are 13-3 and battling. Some games they look flat, and are just going through the motions. When you play teams that you know your C game is going to beat em, its hard for the A game. Now should they get up? Sure. Also on the coaches to fire them up. I'm sure its boring for the coaches at times when they know it'll be a 30+ point win.


The game went like I thought. Bored play until waves took a lead and then a smackdowm.

hooter73
01-05-2018, 08:18 AM
I dont think he's a wiff by any stretch, but you can not have a point guard or shooting guard only play a tiny amount and hope for great things. A pack up PG is Stockton playing behind Pangos. A back up PG is not a kid that only gets a few minutes here and there. They need ten plus mpg to read the tempo, the flow, whats working and whats not, then to impose their will on it.

sittingon50
01-05-2018, 08:56 AM
I sure wish we could go back to the old days when we’d stomp WCC teams by 30-50 points...oh wait.

Guess this is what a final four does to a fan base. Can’t be happy with winning if the game isn’t perfectly played and every player doesn’t have his best game every time out. We have 7 guys essentially averaging double digit scoring. We’re going to have a guy or two not be able to reach his average in every game. This is a great “problem” to have people. I thought the defensive effort was great last night. Keep improving young Zags!

This.

billyberu
01-05-2018, 09:11 AM
These games are a waste of time for all parties involved. We've really gotta get outta this conference.Yup.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

strikenowhere
01-05-2018, 09:12 AM
I feel like we were spoiled having NWG and Perkins on the floor at the same time last year - probably the best 1-2 guard punch the Zags have ever had on the floor at one time (at least based on last year's results).

Goshzagit
01-05-2018, 09:23 AM
Are we dismissing Ayayi?

He is the real deal.

Just too thin, young, inexperienced.

Coach Few said he is already the best on ball defender on the team.

He gets steals like it's his job. Lighting fast in open court. Handles are still trying to catch up to his raw speed.

Just overlooked as a RS.

Don't underestimate Ayayi. If he gains strength he could be special.

Definitely a 'diamond in the rough', and has a focus to declare early, which will drive him. NBA Scouts took notice of his attributes as a 15 & 16 yr old.

We are on good hands with him

ZagsObserver
01-05-2018, 09:30 AM
Not one of those WCC schools even looked at him, mostly Weber St, Utah St, UCSB, some East Coast Ivy Leagues, etc.

If the Zags don't recruit over him, at PG, then we could be held back for years to come. Currently, no one in the stables, or on the 2018 recruiting horizon. Not 'til 2019 at the earliest, unless a transfer is in the mix.

Again, these are just opinions being shared. Even Perkins showed signs of life as a fresh faced freshman, he could find lanes, and looked like he belonged or could play (maybe not consistent but the ability/attributes/IT was there). Even a 19 yr old Stockton showed flashes as a RS freshman, the quickness to blow by, the handles, the recognition of short comings, the fluidity around the court, not to mention him dunking with ease in warm-ups. That's just NOT Jesse Wade, although good kid, good shot, and smart player, he is a fit for a highly structured offense who will find him open looks.

They did. Foster. I would take Wade over Foster any day.

zaguarxj
01-05-2018, 09:34 AM
Norvelle has sure made some pretty passes the last couple of games. Just took a look at the box and he had 5 assists and 0 TO's. Not bad for a guy with a rep as a gunner. The one that stood out in my mind was when he passed-up an open jumper and hit Tillie for an easy lay-up.

FWIW, I noticed what may be the root of JW3's free-throw woes. A split-second before he shoots, he arches/stiffens his back in such a way that he gets no bounce from his legs and his shoulders are actually falling back a little bit, so the shot ends up being all arms (and too much wrist). If he kept his weight over his toes, he would have a much more fluid shot.

Vanzagger
01-05-2018, 09:38 AM
I sure wish we could go back to the old days when we’d stomp WCC teams by 30-50 points...oh wait.

Guess this is what a final four does to a fan base. Can’t be happy with winning if the game isn’t perfectly played and every player doesn’t have his best game every time out. We have 7 guys essentially averaging double digit scoring. We’re going to have a guy or two not be able to reach his average in every game. This is a great “problem” to have people. I thought the defensive effort was great last night. Keep improving young Zags!

This

cggonzaga
01-05-2018, 09:50 AM
Norvelle has sure made some pretty passes the last couple of games. Just took a look at the box and he had 5 assists and 0 TO's. Not bad for a guy with a rep as a gunner. The one that stood out in my mind was when he passed-up an open jumper and hit Tillie for an easy lay-up.

FWIW, I noticed what may be the root of JW3's free-throw woes. A split-second before he shoots, he arches/stiffens his back in such a way that he gets no bounce from his legs and his shoulders are actually falling back a little bit, so the shot ends up being all arms (and too much wrist). If he kept his weight over his toes, he would have a much more fluid shot.

Despite Perkins’ 4 turnovers the backcourt did have 15 assists between them. Pretty impressive.

Zagdawg
01-05-2018, 09:58 AM
Noticed Wade was favoring his right shoulder (or feeling it out when he was shooting free throws)-- wonder if it is still giving him trouble.

Hoopaholic
01-05-2018, 10:12 AM
Despite Perkins’ 4 turnovers the backcourt did have 15 assists between them. Pretty impressive.

Perkins made two boneheaded passes first half poor angled entry pass into J3 who had man sealed and it was stolen
Second half dumb pass to norvell in a soft full court press........

The other two one was very questionable but still not a bad TO......fast break driving to hole he was called for a phantom offensive foul but still ok as it was within context of expectations


second one was not bad either....set play out of timeout to go back door lob to J3 and defender sniffed it out

Hoopaholic
01-05-2018, 10:15 AM
Norvelle has sure made some pretty passes the last couple of games. Just took a look at the box and he had 5 assists and 0 TO's. Not bad for a guy with a rep as a gunner. The one that stood out in my mind was when he passed-up an open jumper and hit Tillie for an easy lay-up.

FWIW, I noticed what may be the root of JW3's free-throw woes. A split-second before he shoots, he arches/stiffens his back in such a way that he gets no bounce from his legs and his shoulders are actually falling back a little bit, so the shot ends up being all arms (and too much wrist). If he kept his weight over his toes, he would have a much more fluid shot.

norvell is maturing before our eyes....he is starting to see the court as a WHOLE and not simply focusing on "him" this is becoming a beautiful thing to see developing
he also seems to be more engaged on defensive end as well which for me was one of his major weakness.......

cggonzaga
01-05-2018, 10:23 AM
Perkins made two boneheaded passes first half poor angled entry pass into J3 who had man sealed and it was stolen
Second half dumb pass to norvell in a soft full court press........

The other two one was very questionable but still not a bad TO......fast break driving to hole he was called for a phantom offensive foul but still ok as it was within context of expectations


second one was not bad either....set play out of timeout to go back door lob to J3 and defender sniffed it out

Yeah, his turnovers don’t bother me as bad as some other posters. At least he’s eliminated the careless ball handling turnovers.

Agreed on Norvell. He’s really becoming a star before our eyes. Defense has clearly become a priory for him which will make him even more desirable for NBA scouts.

thespywhozaggedme
01-05-2018, 10:41 AM
Of course not. But every player at the GU level should be a D1 contributor when called upon. Clearly not happening w Wade. Few only found 5 mins for him vs wretched Pep. Tough business, Spy. Sometimes you whiff on a kid.....BTW, I am far from the only lamenter w respect to Wade and the PG famine, so why single me out? Look around first.

Define "contributor". He played a few minutes at the backup point guard, didn't turn the ball over and hit it three. To me that is a contributor. Besides, it's his freshman year, why don't you give him a little more time. Besides, Norvelle and Melson can provide a few back up pg minutes here and there. And we do have the French kid that is redshirting this year for next season. Again, not everyone is going to be a star, some players are going to be role-playing bench depth; and that's OK.

seacatfan
01-05-2018, 10:45 AM
Just a random thought, what do you guys think about this? Melson seemed to thrive in the 6th man role last year. Norvell is carving out his role on the team, Kispert looks to be back to 100%. What if Melson goes back to being first guard off the bench? Bring some energy, change the flow of the game w/ his defense and hustle. Maybe his shots are falling, maybe they aren't.

tinfoilzag
01-05-2018, 10:47 AM
Perkins made two boneheaded passes first half poor angled entry pass into J3...t

Josh would remove an average of 2 TOs a game if he would quit trying to make these passes from the top of the key. It's a difficult pass that some can make look easier than it is.

Staff must be talking to him about this. Just because a post has sealed his guy doesn't mean you have to try to fit the pass into such a small window. I'd love to know if it's Josh not being coachable or if he has the green light and he's just not executing. Maybe he is executing this play at a assist:TO ratio better than 1:1 and I'm just not seeing it.

Whatever the case, it needs to be cleaned up in the regular season because possessions are too precious in the post season.

realtydog
01-05-2018, 10:49 AM
PG gems via transfer w Mac and NWG

would have to challenge your memory of E mac a little---I think you're all wrong here---maybe you're recall is fuzzy

seacatfan
01-05-2018, 10:51 AM
would have to challenge your memory of E mac a little---I think you're all wrong here---maybe you're recall is fuzzy

I'm with you. He played well down the final stretch of his career. He had 1 1/2 seasons as a Zag, most of it he spent struggling to find his niche.

realtydog
01-05-2018, 10:54 AM
my point is not to trash E MAC but if Jazz thinks fondly of his play at PG than he should love Perkins----because EMAC had Ass/TO of 2.0-1.7 and could not shoot like Perk ---I'll take Perkins-----maybe this is just a little anti-perkins bias Jazz has against him

bballbeachbum
01-05-2018, 10:56 AM
Perkins made two boneheaded passes first half poor angled entry pass into J3 who had man sealed and it was stolen
Second half dumb pass to norvell in a soft full court press........

The other two one was very questionable but still not a bad TO......fast break driving to hole he was called for a phantom offensive foul but still ok as it was within context of expectations


second one was not bad either....set play out of timeout to go back door lob to J3 and defender sniffed it out

this is what I saw. I thought it was cool to see Josh lead the team in the first half even while not shooting it well. Zags controlled that game on the defensive end in the first half and he was good. Ross wanted to go after Josh early and establish the bounce but failed for example.

thespywhozaggedme
01-05-2018, 10:58 AM
Just a random thought, what do you guys think about this? Melson seemed to thrive in the 6th man role last year. Norvell is carving out his role on the team, Kispert looks to be back to 100%. What if Melson goes back to being first guard off the bench? Bring some energy, change the flow of the game w/ his defense and hustle. Maybe his shots are falling, maybe they aren't.

I've been advocating that for a while now, but despite his inconsistent offensive production, Few loves senior starters.

Hoopaholic
01-05-2018, 10:58 AM
Josh would remove an average of 2 TOs a game if he would quit trying to make these passes from the top of the key. It's a difficult pass that some can make look easier than it is.

Staff must be talking to him about this. Just because a post has sealed his guy doesn't mean you have to try to fit the pass into such a small window. I'd love to know if it's Josh not being coachable or if he has the green light and he's just not executing. Maybe he is executing this play at a assist:TO ratio better than 1:1 and I'm just not seeing it.

Whatever the case, it needs to be cleaned up in the regular season because possessions are too precious in the post season.

Bingo...for whatever reason he has a tendency to pull up his dribble at the top of key or between top of key and elbow and then try the spin pass into the sealed post...when a simple one more driblble exploits the proper angle....almost to a auto response issue

Hoopaholic
01-05-2018, 11:00 AM
Just a random thought, what do you guys think about this? Melson seemed to thrive in the 6th man role last year. Norvell is carving out his role on the team, Kispert looks to be back to 100%. What if Melson goes back to being first guard off the bench? Bring some energy, change the flow of the game w/ his defense and hustle. Maybe his shots are falling, maybe they aren't.

except we would then have two players with below average (currently as both are improving) defensive skill sets and that could create an issue...if either kispert or norvell picks up the defensive rotations, angles and on ball defense then this would be viable IMO

bballbeachbum
01-05-2018, 11:02 AM
two WCC opponents, two different ideas on how to defend the Zags. After doubling and allowing open perimeter looks that the Zags nailed Thursday, Saturday was a lot of 1v1 in the post from Pepp who didn't want the open looks created from doubling and scrambling it looked like. I think the points and where they came from are a big reason because of this stuff

Interesting though, KT got loose playing weakside and off the ball in the first half. Then in the 2nd half, Few and co. seemed to make a concerted effort to get him the ball down low, and for the first time I can remember in a while, he looked aggressive and got things done and finished. I realize the level of the competition in the analysis but still nice to see

bballbeachbum
01-05-2018, 11:04 AM
on the Josh turnover pass to JIII near the end of the first half I think they had just connected on a similar look; I thought it was there again but JP just undershot the pass

MDABE80
01-05-2018, 11:04 AM
In 2 years, I've yet to see Josh drive the key. Nigel? all the time. The key is a tough place to be.....Josh is a stop and pop guy. It can be very limiting. It's just not his style.

thespywhozaggedme
01-05-2018, 11:06 AM
except we would then have two players with below average (currently as both are improving) defensive skill sets and that could create an issue...if either kispert or norvell picks up the defensive rotations, angles and on ball defense then this would be viable IMO

I don't know where this narrative came from that Norvell is a bad defender, but I vehemently disagree with that.

thespywhozaggedme
01-05-2018, 11:07 AM
In 2 years, I've yet to see Josh drive the key. Nigel? all the time. The key is a tough place to be.....Josh is a stop and pop guy. It can be very limiting. It's just not his style.

He does occasionally drive to the hoop, he's just not very good at it at all. He tried last night as a matter fact and it was a terrible shot.

Goshzagit
01-05-2018, 11:14 AM
Noticed Wade was favoring his right shoulder (or feeling it out when he was shooting free throws)-- wonder if it is still giving him trouble.

Was told his shoulder slips and/or moves slightly about every 3rd practice or game.

Takes about 24 hrs to settle down post aggravation.

Sometimes it's due to contsct i.e. ball screens, other times its random, non contsct, when he suddenly abducts his arm, or even tenses his muscles.

Most likely one of those muscle/ligament deals you can play through and do surgery later to hopefully tighten things up.

Although, some athletes have capsule issues and never resolved, actually hindering them from high level athletics. Moreso in football, but this happened to my Uncle playing D1 football. Re current dislocations and subluxations due to abnormal/partial glenoid capsule. No surgery can fix the issue unless they opted for a total shoulder replacement.

I'm hoping for Wade's sake and future it's just a muscle, or loose ligament issue, such as a previous injury or rapid muscle building or improper lifting, such as doing only bench press and not rows, etc.

Markburn1
01-05-2018, 11:18 AM
Define "contributor". He played a few minutes at the backup point guard, didn't turn the ball over and hit it three. To me that is a contributor. Besides, it's his freshman year, why don't you give him a little more time. Besides, Norvelle and Melson can provide a few back up pg minutes here and there. And we do have the French kid that is redshirting this year for next season. Again, not everyone is going to be a star, some players are going to be role-playing bench depth; and that's OK.

Nobody at the elite level recruits bench depth. A player may end up there, but the staff of a top twenty team is looking for stars. Period.

jazzdelmar
01-05-2018, 11:22 AM
Nobody at the elite level recruits bench depth. A player may end up there, but the staff of a top twenty team is looking for stars. Period.

Thank you.

basketballzag
01-05-2018, 11:22 AM
He does occasionally drive to the hoop, he's just not very good at it at all. He tried last night as a matter fact and it was a terrible shot.

Novell is getting much better at defense. Perkins is definitely not a drive type PG. (21-47 shooting from the 2 this year) Most games Perkins might take 2-3 shots from inside the arc at most (against Creighton he didn't shoot at all inside the arc). He a good defensive player but his offensive skills are up & down. He does fold under pressure when playing against good players or when he is doubled as evidenced by his high TO numbers in every game we lost (minus Florida).

Goshzagit
01-05-2018, 11:23 AM
I don't know where this narrative came from that Norvell is a bad defender, but I vehemently disagree with that.

Again, you are looking at one side of the coin.

In terms of facing up, on ball defending Norvell is solid. Actually pretty good given his length and natural strength/ instincts. Good awareness of where the ball is, & what moves his opponent will make.

The reason Coach Lloyd, Coach Few, and many posters speak to Norvell's defense is his lack of understanding team defense positioning, when to help, and most importantly, when to switch off roll screens or ball screens.

Has he improved? Absolutely.

But watch Norvell after a screen, or a full offensive set...he loses his man more often than not. Also, his help defense off entry passes and close outs are late. Not to mention, he loses his assignment frequently requiring Tillie or J3 to help, or he ends up defending a big.

But yes, as a straight up on ball one on one defender, he is doing fine. Has good instincts too...which is what many seem to notice on TV or deciding good or bad defense.

Kinda like some are considered poor defenders along perimeter or isolation but wonderful defenders overall

Jordan Mathews and Kevin Pangos fits this bill

Hoopaholic
01-05-2018, 11:24 AM
Was told his shoulder slips and/or moves slightly about every 3rd practice or game.

Takes about 24 hrs to settle down post aggravation.

Sometimes it's due to contsct i.e. ball screens, other times its random, non contsct, when he suddenly abducts his arm, or even tenses his muscles.

Most likely one of those muscle/ligament deals you can play through and do surgery later to hopefully tighten things up.

Although, some athletes have capsule issues and never resolved, actually hindering them from high level athletics. Moreso in football, but this happened to my Uncle playing D1 football. Re current dislocations and subluxations due to abnormal/partial glenoid capsule. No surgery can fix the issue unless they opted for a total shoulder replacement.

I'm hoping for Wade's sake and future it's just a muscle, or loose ligament issue, such as a previous injury or rapid muscle building or improper lifting, such as doing only bench press and not rows, etc.

so why have they not used a brace similar to what we saw on the Pepperdine kid who had the same issue?

thespywhozaggedme
01-05-2018, 11:24 AM
Nobody at the elite level recruits bench depth. A player may end up there, but the staff of a top twenty team is looking for stars. Period.

Complete and utter nonsense. The coach me not tell the player that he's recruiting him as bench depth, but these coaches aren't stupid. I guarantee no one thinks that Greg Foster Junior is going to be a star given his high school performance. He is rotational bench depth, and that's OK.

jazzdelmar
01-05-2018, 11:25 AM
I feel like we were spoiled having NWG and Perkins on the floor at the same time last year - probably the best 1-2 guard punch the Zags have ever had on the floor at one time (at least based on last year's results).

Surely you are kidding. Arguably the third-fourth best......

Hoopaholic
01-05-2018, 11:30 AM
I don't know where this narrative came from that Norvell is a bad defender, but I vehemently disagree with that.

We can agree to disagree

His on ball defense has been lacking in two critical areas....drive to basket he has a tendency to open up his back foot on drop steps as you hold the line and angle this gives the defender a direct line drive as you have moved your nose off the middle of the chest and onto a should when you foot opens up like that. It is a tenendecy that was bad early part of year but is getting better but still occurs.

Second on ball defense issue he has concerns with is screen defense. He has a tendency to take the easy route and go under when many times that is not part of the obvious defensive game plan....once again this is mind set and removing tendencies that he got away with in past at lower level of hoops....has absolute ability just need to mentally engage in this


Off ball defense is probably been his greatest weakness but also his area to create instant improvement IMO

He does not get off the man away from ball in a timely fashion and when he does generally he is not deep enough nor at proper angles to be an effective weakside help defender
timing and angles are key to this success as well as consistently applying the game plan for whoever he is guarding


With that said I have seen consistent improvement in these areas......it is a learning and maturation at the high level and he seems to be embracing it

Goshzagit
01-05-2018, 11:31 AM
so why have they not used a brace similar to what we saw on the Pepperdine kid who had the same issue?

Good question.

Out of my scope, I only know what I heard awhile back.

Hoopaholic
01-05-2018, 11:33 AM
In 2 years, I've yet to see Josh drive the key. Nigel? all the time. The key is a tough place to be.....Josh is a stop and pop guy. It can be very limiting. It's just not his style.

Dude you really need to take the glasses off or change them because he does it (granted not to the extend NWG did but that was his strength)

He drove the lane twice last night for effective outcomes...one time he came off the top screen going to his left...continued the dribble as he was given the baseline, went into the key and was collapsed upon and continued his dribble while defense was collapsing, quickly hitting the spot up three point shooter for basket

He also took his man off the dribble to the right and created a layup

bballbeachbum
01-05-2018, 11:43 AM
I don't know where this narrative came from that Norvell is a bad defender, but I vehemently disagree with that.

it's not a narrative; he has clearly improved after starting quite poorly quite frankly. still seems like he's figuring out how close he needs to be to bug guys on the perimeter without getting blown by

TexasZagFan
01-05-2018, 11:44 AM
Dude you really need to take the glasses off or change them because he does it (granted not to the extend NWG did but that was his strength)

He drove the lane twice last night for effective outcomes...one time he came off the top screen going to his left...continued the dribble as he was given the baseline, went into the key and was collapsed upon and continued his dribble while defense was collapsing, quickly hitting the spot up three point shooter for basket

He also took his man off the dribble to the right and created a layup

I saw that, too. It was a welcome change to the inconsistencies in his game this year. We really need Perk to up his generalship of this team.

bartruff1
01-05-2018, 11:45 AM
This team has 7 very good scorers.... The color guy kept repeating that they are the only D! team with 6 players averaging double figures....they also can really rebound..... and block shots.....a pleasure to watch....

Having had a very serious injury and taken a medical redshirt to eat thru a straw..... I can well imagine that driving to the basket against one or more defenders is not Josh's favorite move....

Hoopaholic
01-05-2018, 11:50 AM
I saw that, too. It was a welcome change to the inconsistencies in his game this year. We really need Perk to up his generalship of this team.

he too is adjusting to new roles and expectations'
he too is adjusting to new player tendencies and areas they have on the floor as hot spots

Markburn1
01-05-2018, 11:55 AM
Complete and utter nonsense. The coach me not tell the player that he's recruiting him as bench depth, but these coaches aren't stupid. I guarantee no one thinks that Greg Foster Junior is going to be a star given his high school performance. He is rotational bench depth, and that's OK.

Cool. You go with that.

Zags11
01-05-2018, 11:57 AM
In 2 years, I've yet to see Josh drive the key. Nigel? all the time. The key is a tough place to be.....Josh is a stop and pop guy. It can be very limiting. It's just not his style.

Drove the key last night for a lay in. But overall he struggles on the drive.

bballbeachbum
01-05-2018, 12:03 PM
Novell is getting much better at defense. Perkins is definitely not a drive type PG. (21-47 shooting from the 2 this year) Most games Perkins might take 2-3 shots from inside the arc at most (against Creighton he didn't shoot at all inside the arc). He a good defensive player but his offensive skills are up & down. He does fold under pressure when playing against good players or when he is doubled as evidenced by his high TO numbers in every game we lost (minus Florida).

fair assessment imo although I disagree on a couple things

I'd say JP is not a drive and finish PG tho he does probe dribble and find the weakside but he's not explosive at the rim with his limited hops seems to me, has to try and jump long to finish. if he kept trying to drive and finish at the rim I'd think that would be stupid actually.

also wouldn't label him as a folder under pressure tho the Zags had better have a better idea how to attack teams with skill when they double Josh, including Josh

MDABE80
01-05-2018, 12:06 PM
Drove the key last night for a lay in. But overall he struggles on the drive.
Missed that. lol was anybody there or was it a simple lay in? And it's a huge difference in how a game is managed. Driving the key is usually essential so the defense collapses and then passing out to an open teammate. We don't see that and there's good reason. Josh doesn't do that. Top of key stop and pop or an alley opp. Just different. I don't remember our PG's in the past who didn't drive the key and into traffic. Although we've established Nigel was a master, Pangos for 4 years and those prior knew the key might be painful (they often were clobbered....lol) but they were in there frequently.
It's not a criticism. It's just not Josh's style. Maybe MileHigh might let us know what Josh was like in HS.

gueastcoast
01-05-2018, 12:31 PM
Missed the game last night, but catching up based on this thread. We lose? By double digits?

/sarc

Zagricultural
01-05-2018, 01:05 PM
Unless there is there is a physical issue it does not look like the staff is comfortable with him running extended minutes. Understanding it is a limited sample size but he does not appear to be the PG of the future.

Didn't anyone else notice him massaging and rotating his injured shoulder? He's clearly not 100%

titopoet
01-05-2018, 01:41 PM
Not one of those WCC schools even looked at him, mostly Weber St, Utah St, UCSB, some East Coast Ivy Leagues, etc.

If the Zags don't recruit over him, at PG, then we could be held back for years to come. Currently, no one in the stables, or on the 2018 recruiting horizon. Not 'til 2019 at the earliest, unless a transfer is in the mix.

Again, these are just opinions being shared. Even Perkins showed signs of life as a fresh faced freshman, he could find lanes, and looked like he belonged or could play (maybe not consistent but the ability/attributes/IT was there). Even a 19 yr old Stockton showed flashes as a RS freshman, the quickness to blow by, the handles, the recognition of short comings, the fluidity around the court, not to mention him dunking with ease in warm-ups. That's just NOT Jesse Wade, although good kid, good shot, and smart player, he is a fit for a highly structured offense who will find him open looks.

Number 1... Jessie Wade was a four star recruit. He has been dealing with the shoulder and nerve issue. He already has shown a ability to run the team. He has the talent and skill to succeed as a D1 player. He shined at the Pangos All American Camp and was seen as a great shooting PG with a high Basketball IQ who does not turn the ball over. Many Power-5 schools went after him becuase GU wrapped up early.

Number 2: They have a redshirt four star level PG working hard in Travis Knight developing clinic. (Joel Ayayi) and have signed Greg Foster jr a big PG coming next year (who is a 3 star).

cggonzaga
01-05-2018, 01:48 PM
Missed that. lol was anybody there or was it a simple lay in? And it's a huge difference in how a game is managed. Driving the key is usually essential so the defense collapses and then passing out to an open teammate. We don't see that and there's good reason. Josh doesn't do that. Top of key stop and pop or an alley opp. Just different. I don't remember our PG's in the past who didn't drive the key and into traffic. Although we've established Nigel was a master, Pangos for 4 years and those prior knew the key might be painful (they often were clobbered....lol) but they were in there frequently.
It's not a criticism. It's just not Josh's style. Maybe MileHigh might let us know what Josh was like in HS.

The whole premise of this is off base. What I think you continue to fail to realize Abe is the game can be played successfully in many different ways. Somehow despite your criticisms of Josh and this team, they’re still managing to score around 90ppg. And they’re doing it without your perceived perception of how that would be possible.

While Pangos is one of my favorite players, it’s a joke you think he was in the key frequently. I’d put 3 pg’s at GU in the past 20 years that penetrated and were successful doing so; Stepp, Pargo and NWG.

WallaWallaZag
01-05-2018, 01:50 PM
Number 1... Jessie Wade was a four star recruit. He has been dealing with the shoulder and nerve issue. He already has shown a ability to run the team. He has the talent and skill to succeed as a D1 player. He shined at the Pangos All American Camp and was seen as a great shooting PG with a high Basketball IQ who does not turn the ball over. Many Power-5 schools went after him becuase GU wrapped up early.

Number 2: They have a redshirt four star level PG working hard in Travis Knight developing clinic. (Joel Ayayi) and have signed Greg Foster jr a big PG coming next year (who is a 3 star).

i think people are looking for a nwg replacement...or at least another perkins level recruit...especially after recent 3 year run...jury is out on ayayi as zags don't exactly have a great track record with euro guards.

JPtheBeasta
01-05-2018, 02:06 PM
I don't know where this narrative came from that Norvell is a bad defender, but I vehemently disagree with that.

If I remember, he was out of position early in the year on defense, missing defensive rotations and what have you. I personally think he’s a pretty good on-ball defender

JPtheBeasta
01-05-2018, 02:07 PM
The whole premise of this is off base. What I think you continue to fail to realize Abe is the game can be played successfully in many different ways. Somehow despite your criticisms of Josh and this team, they’re still managing to score around 90ppg. And they’re doing it without your perceived perception of how that would be possible.

While Pangos is one of my favorite players, it’s a joke you think he was in the key frequently. I’d put 3 pg’s at GU in the past 20 years that penetrated and were successful doing so; Stepp, Pargo and NWG.

Raivio had a good handle and got in there quite a bit.

scrooner
01-05-2018, 02:09 PM
Norvell seems to me to be the best backup PG we have at the moment, should Perkins foul out.

scrooner
01-05-2018, 02:09 PM
Raivio had a good handle and got in there quite a bit.

And don't forget Bouldin posting up all the time, ha ha.

cggonzaga
01-05-2018, 02:13 PM
Raivio had a good handle and got in there quite a bit.

I wouldn’t put him in the category of the other 3 but I’d probably put him and David Stockton in the next tier.

MDABE80
01-05-2018, 02:31 PM
The whole premise of this is off base. What I think you continue to fail to realize Abe is the game can be played successfully in many different ways. Somehow despite your criticisms of Josh and this team, they’re still managing to score around 90ppg. And they’re doing it without your perceived perception of how that would be possible.

While Pangos is one of my favorite players, it’s a joke you think he was in the key frequently. I’d put 3 pg’s at GU in the past 20 years that penetrated and were successful doing so; Stepp, Pargo and NWG.

No no no....Pangos was in the key all the time with his drives.....this is looked up. Contrariwise, when it comes to shooting of Josh's 150 shots, 108 were from 3 pt land. He doesn't go in there often. Which I guess is ok. Point being is that LD shooting is Josh's style not penetration and feeding others. No criticism as I said. It's just how it is.

bballbeachbum
01-05-2018, 02:59 PM
And don't forget Bouldin posting up all the time, ha ha.

don't know about all the time, but it happened and Steven would be weakside baseline and would sneak in for rim fireworks. those two had it going on with the inside passing/cutting

bballbeachbum
01-05-2018, 03:04 PM
Norvell seems to me to be the best backup PG we have at the moment, should Perkins foul out.

Silas gets the nod from Few plenty too

hoop asked on the game thread when was last time Zags had a wing like Zach, with his toolbox. Wesley, altho I couldn't think of him last night.
Zach and Rui both showing they can get to the rim and finish with the bounce

TexasZagFan
01-05-2018, 03:16 PM
If I remember, he was out of position early in the year on defense, missing defensive rotations and what have you. I personally think he’s a pretty good on-ball defender

You could say the same thing about Corey, both are in their first year of Division 1 basketball. Their overall game continues to improve.

Just damn, we lost an All American, two seniors, and a lottery player from last year. Until the game against SC, most of us expected Collins to stay one more year. We knew this year would be like a roller coaster, and it’s living up to its billing.

Just my $.02, but too many have forgotten that last year was singular and historic. Can this group climb the same mountain?

Zags11
01-05-2018, 03:25 PM
Missed that. lol was anybody there or was it a simple lay in? And it's a huge difference in how a game is managed. Driving the key is usually essential so the defense collapses and then passing out to an open teammate. We don't see that and there's good reason. Josh doesn't do that. Top of key stop and pop or an alley opp. Just different. I don't remember our PG's in the past who didn't drive the key and into traffic. Although we've established Nigel was a master, Pangos for 4 years and those prior knew the key might be painful (they often were clobbered....lol) but they were in there frequently.
It's not a criticism. It's just not Josh's style. Maybe MileHigh might let us know what Josh was like in HS.

I believe he drove past a guard and big and had the lay in uncontested.

Goshzagit
01-05-2018, 03:35 PM
Number 1... Jessie Wade was a four star recruit.

great post and agree completely, yet in all fairness, Jesse Wade was a 3* by every reputable recruiting service out there, save ESPN who changed him from a 2-star to a 4-star following his commitment to the Zags.

JAGzag
01-05-2018, 04:06 PM
I remember a thread not too long ago that talked about Wade’s health and it sounded almost season ending. Something about a shoulder rotation condition? And suddenly we don’t hear anything more but he’s only playing scrub minutes? I think they’re holding the kid back because of his health not because of his play.

JPtheBeasta
01-05-2018, 04:15 PM
I remember a thread not too long ago that talked about Wade’s health and it sounded almost season ending. Something about a shoulder rotation condition? And suddenly we don’t hear anything more but he’s only playing scrub minutes? I think they’re holding the kid back because of his health not because of his play.

Now I can’t remember which shoulder, but I wonder if it has affected his shot... He hasn’t exactly come in and scorched the nets like I thought he might.

Reborn
01-05-2018, 04:16 PM
Things that amazed me last night.

1. The fact that the Zags scored 89 points on a night where Perkins and Melson do not look good offensively.
2. How good our bench is. We had a really good bench last year, and they helped the Zags to a great season. The bench this year may be better.
3. One reason the Zags are scorning so many points is that the bench recently has been scoring about 40 points a game.
4. There are 3 guys on the bench who could definitely could be starters. One was a starter at the beginning of the year.
5. How good our freshmen are. Wow!
6. Tillie dribbling the full length of the court and scoring twice on lay ups at the other end. He looked like Magic Johnson.
7. Rui can do the same thing. And JWIII likes to try to do it too.
8. How tough Kispert is. He isn't afraid to drive the lane. He likes it rough. He's got the body of a linebacker.
9. Zags are really talented at the wings. I think Norvell and Kispert are the best pair of wings since Morrison. I look forward to the two of them starting next year.
10. I thought the Zags would really miss Collins. Imo they haven't. I like Larsen a lot. I'm NOT saying is better right now, but I am saying I don't miss Collins. I like the combo post players, Rui and Larsen.
11. This team will be a great defensive team by the end of the year. When they want to, to they can really D up. As a team they are NOT quite there yet, but the new players are really improving: Rui, Norvell, Kispert, Larsen.
12. Wait until Rui finds his outside shot.....how good will he be then?

ZagNative
01-05-2018, 04:49 PM
You're the best, Reborn! Always on point and a pleasure to read. I'm sure glad you choose to post here!

cggonzaga
01-05-2018, 05:19 PM
No no no....Pangos was in the key all the time with his drives.....this is looked up. Contrariwise, when it comes to shooting of Josh's 150 shots, 108 were from 3 pt land. He doesn't go in there often. Which I guess is ok. Point being is that LD shooting is Josh's style not penetration and feeding others. No criticism as I said. It's just how it is.

Again you’re talking out of your a$$. Where’s the proof? I looked up stats for 2pt shots per game. I understand this doesn’t equate to “the key” necessarily but probably the best indicator we could find.

NWG 9.4
Pargo 5.8
Pangos 3.7
Perkins 3.1
(Also, Perkins shoots a slightly better 2pt fg percentage than Pangos.)

Like normal, the perceptions of the Perkins haters are wrong.

Outraged
01-05-2018, 05:32 PM
It's his beard. I don't know why. Year before last he had a beard and we were singing the same tune. Watch if he shaved it off he is a 50% shooter.

Reborn
01-05-2018, 07:13 PM
You're the best, Reborn! Always on point and a pleasure to read. I'm sure glad you choose to post here!

Thanks ZN. You're one of my hereos here. I have always appreciated what you've done here. Especially with your pictures.....

MDABE80
01-05-2018, 07:40 PM
Look little man....a chump though you be,.... it's all on ESPN in data. Nobody should be doing your work for you. Seek and find. If you learn addition and subtraction you'll soon seen I'm correct. Try ( for once) to show initiative.

MDABE80
01-05-2018, 07:44 PM
Again you’re talking out of your a$$. Where’s the proof? I looked up stats for 2pt shots per game. I understand this doesn’t equate to “the key” necessarily but probably the best indicator we could find.

NWG 9.4
Pargo 5.8
Pangos 3.7
Perkins 3.1
(Also, Perkins shoots a slightly better 2pt fg percentage than Pangos.)

Like normal, the perceptions of the Perkins haters are wrong.

Look little man....a chump though you be,.... it's all on ESPN in data. Nobody will be doing your work for you. Seek and find. If you learn addition and subtraction you'll soon see I'm correct. Try ( for once) to show initiative. Parenthetically, nobody hates Josh......lib speak I guess. Learn to express yourself like a normal human....not a whiney boy who speaks in extremes.. You can be an adult here. It's safe.

These are sterile facts. Look them up. You are not required to spin any disagreement into so called "hate". As I said above, these are not criticisms.......these facts stand alone as sterile facts. What you quote above are your "facts". Not mine. Just so there's no confusion.

75Zag
01-05-2018, 08:03 PM
So who is the starting point guard of the future? Clearly not Wade (in my opinion), but who else is either on the bench or a signed incoming scholarship player? Are we looking for a transfer or a last minute surprise? Seems a bit odd to have GU without a clear path to the future at point guard.

Go Bulldogs!

MDABE80
01-05-2018, 08:18 PM
Agree 75. I don't know. I'd be surprised if Few doesn't have a new face in mind. As it sits now. Jesse ( who I still think deserves a fair hearing without a bum shoulder) isn't that guy. GZ is generally is on top of this type of thing. Joel Ayayi has that potential. As we finish this year and look forward to next, it's the one spot we need filled.
WHen it comes to next year, Larsen, Rui, Tillie, Petrusek, Clarke............for a sensational nucleus for the bigs. Corey, Norvell look to be suitable wings or 2 guards, Josh should be a fine SG and part time PG. it's the PG we need. Ayayi is a superior athlete with lots of speed and distributes very well. Los of fundamental skills. Shooting? DOn't know just yt.

MDABE80
01-05-2018, 09:11 PM
Again you’re talking out of your a$$. Where’s the proof? I looked up stats for 2pt shots per game. I understand this doesn’t equate to “the key” necessarily but probably the best indicator we could find.

NWG 9.4
Pargo 5.8
Pangos 3.7
Perkins 3.1
(Also, Perkins shoots a slightly better 2pt fg percentage than Pangos.)

Like normal, the perceptions of the Perkins haters are wrong.
I think we're talking about different things. I focused on the data presented by ESPN for this year for Josh's 3 pointers. It's there for you to see if you go review their data. I know of no objective info to prove or disprove on court behavior of other guards in other years. My impression of NWG and Kevin Pangos (and others I suppose) is from watching games from prior years. Hope that clears it up.

But nobody hates ( your use of "Josh haters") Josh. Commonly misused word "hate". Doesn't apply here.

upan8th
01-05-2018, 10:31 PM
A consistent few, not that many, posters, (but it doesn't take a look in the mirror to know who you are) persist in regularly diminishing players on the Zag's roster (and even recruits) who, viewed through the lens their particular biases, will never measure up. Not saying many of us posting here in the past haven't been guilty of the same offense. Mea culpa, Meech, mea culpa. But the current, unrelenting, oftentimes unwarranted screeds against certain Zag ballers, for the first time since I've been part of this worthy forum, has me reaching for the ignore button. Lord knows there's a world of under-performance on much larger, infinitely more important stages to demean if a poster's in the mood. Suggest you go there, do that. What part, missing from your life, do you want these young scholar athletes' achievements to fulfill? Why the vitriol when they fail individually or as a team? Not waiting for your answers. Doubt you have any. Adios, you guys. Oh,will you do me the favor of pressing the button on me as well? Thanks.

WallaWallaZag
01-06-2018, 12:30 AM
I think we're talking about different things. I focused on the data presented by ESPN for this year for Josh's 3 pointers. It's there for you to see if you go review their data. I know of no objective info to prove or disprove on court behavior of other guards in other years. My impression of NWG and Kevin Pangos (and others I suppose) is from watching games from prior years. Hope that clears it up.

pangos could get in the paint as a junior and senior when he was 100% healthy with the feet/ankles/toes...unfortunately, that was rarely the case. otherwise, i would say similar amount of forays as perkins, though a bit better of a finisher...perkins a bit better midrange shooter however.

Zaga
01-06-2018, 05:47 AM
I’d put 3 pg’s at GU in the past 20 years that penetrated and were successful doing so; Stepp, Pargo and NWG.

Don't forget about Matt Bouldin. While he didn't penetrate often he could post you up as well as NWG... IMO

Outraged
01-06-2018, 05:49 AM
Wade is fine. He is just a freshmen with senior expectations. I think we have a team problem rather than a point guard problem.

Birddog
01-06-2018, 06:37 AM
So who is the starting point guard of the future? Clearly not Wade (in my opinion), but who else is either on the bench or a signed incoming scholarship player? Are we looking for a transfer or a last minute surprise? Seems a bit odd to have GU without a clear path to the future at point guard.

Go Bulldogs!

Perkins has one more year of eligibility.

WallaWallaZag
01-06-2018, 09:24 AM
Perkins has one more year of eligibility.

ayayi has a very high floor (and ceiling) because of his defensive abilities...if he can run the o halfway decent he'll get time...

ZagsGoZags
01-06-2018, 10:20 AM
isn't Ayayi a potential point guard,
maybe he is a 2, but I did not see his name at all in the wade and josh discussion

MileHigh
01-06-2018, 10:24 AM
Perkins has one more year of eligibility.



If Josh is back next year he will be the starting pg, thats a 100% guarantee. While he might throw a few stupid passes hear and there that drive Few (and the fanbase) a little batty, the good outweighs the bad and Few and the staff have 100% confidence in him running the team, not to mention and no one at this point knows Fews system better than Josh The suggestion that a freshman or transfer will come in next year and learn the Gonzaga system and be the primary pg in front of a fifth year senior, is in a word, ridiculous

jazzdelmar
01-06-2018, 10:48 AM
If Josh is back next year he will be the starting pg, thats a 100% guarantee. While he might throw a few stupid passes hear and there that drive Few (and the fanbase) a little batty, the good outweighs the bad and Few and the staff have 100% confidence in him running the team, not to mention and no one at this point knows Fews system better than Josh The suggestion that a freshman or transfer will come in next year and learn the Gonzaga system and be the primary pg in front of a fifth year senior, is in a word, ridiculous

Enter NWG.

MileHigh
01-06-2018, 11:24 AM
Enter NWG.

He red shirted a year had 2 years to learn the system, not to mention he didn't unseat a 5th year senior. I'm talking about a grad transfer or frosh showing up in September and taking over the team by the start of the season. I don't see that happening under any circumstances

OntZags
01-06-2018, 01:36 PM
Enter NWG.

Where on earth are you going to find a grad-transfer of NWG's ilk? That doesn't happen.


He red shirted a year had 2 years to learn the system, not to mention he didn't unseat a 5th year senior. I'm talking about a grad transfer or frosh showing up in September and taking over the team by the start of the season. I don't see that happening under any circumstances

You're totally correct. People wishing Perkins Adieu are absolutely clueless. Gonzaga will be in a seriously bad situation if Josh doesn't return because there are no (domestic, at least) frosh recruits available to hit the ground running and the odds of finding a grad transfer at that level are pretty remote.

Josh has some faults to his game but the dude is absolutely a legit plus player. If Josh doesn't return, Gonzaga will have some serious adjustment pains next season.

The negativity with some people around here is just insane. I understand measured criticisms but I think some people just want to be miserable and moan about everything and everyone.

TexasZagFan
01-06-2018, 01:55 PM
Where on earth are you going to find a grad-transfer of NWG's ilk? That doesn't happen.



You're totally correct. People wishing Perkins Adieu are absolutely clueless. Gonzaga will be in a seriously bad situation if Josh doesn't return because there are no (domestic, at least) frosh recruits available to hit the ground running and the odds of finding a grad transfer at that level are pretty remote.

Josh has some faults to his game but the dude is absolutely a legit plus player. If Josh doesn't return, Gonzaga will have some serious adjustment pains next season.

The negativity with some people around here is just insane. I understand measured criticisms but I think some people just want to be miserable and moan about everything and everyone.


What you call “negativity”, I also call it passion. If you want less negativity, check out godisagael.com. You’ll find less of everything there. I don’t check out the BYU board, it may be more active than SMC. After that, it’s a desert out there.

Of course, many of our brethren here are attorneys who like to argue about everything. Me? I’m just a curmudgeon who recently left the rat race...lol.

cggonzaga
01-06-2018, 01:58 PM
What you call “negativity”, I also call it passion. If you want less negativity, check out godisagael.com. You’ll find less of everything there. I don’t check out the BYU board, it may be more active than SMC. After that, it’s a desert out there.

Of course, many of our brethren here are attorneys who like to argue about everything. Me? I’m just a curmudgeon who recently left the rat race...lol.

Call it what you want but it ain’t passion.

thespywhozaggedme
01-06-2018, 05:07 PM
What you call “negativity”, I also call it passion. If you want less negativity, check out godisagael.com. You’ll find less of everything there. I don’t check out the BYU board, it may be more active than SMC. After that, it’s a desert out there.

Of course, many of our brethren here are attorneys who like to argue about everything. Me? I’m just a curmudgeon who recently left the rat race...lol.

Passionately negative

cggonzaga
01-06-2018, 05:12 PM
Passionately negative

This.

Watching tonight’s game jazz or skipping this one too?

MDABE80
01-06-2018, 05:25 PM
Oh yes it is passion Big time passion. . The best critics and supporters soberly evaluate each game and each player. Takes effort. no cheap potshots. No Polyanna behavior.........we love the Zags and we want the best. We don't have the best play this year. But we are what we are. Some good performances and some regretful....but it's far from the best. Completely different style of ball this year. Nothing personal......just sober comments.

To be clear, we need a Nigel. We don't have him. He was a multifaceted PG. We also had a superior defense. Now, we don't. You cqq think everything is a criticism...you think it's all personal. It's not....not by a stretch even. I like Josh . a good player as a SG. A good stop and pop player. Heck most can put up with sloppy play! This year, we simply don't have the balance an inside game brings. What's to complain about.?? Why do you think you should rag on some who have a different view? Intolerance? Isn't that your strong suit?

We're winning games by a wide margin. Some think that's all that counts. I like to evaluate the mechanics even when we play overmatched teams... Sloppy play and TO's deserve comment. Period. Make no mistake though Cqq, we love the team and the kids. We also want the best for them......and the team. Tex is correct.

cggonzaga
01-06-2018, 08:48 PM
Oh yes it is passion Big time passion. . The best critics and supporters soberly evaluate each game and each player. Takes effort. no cheap potshots. No Polyanna behavior.........we love the Zags and we want the best. We don't have the best play this year. But we are what we are. Some good performances and some regretful....but it's far from the best. Completely different style of ball this year. Nothing personal......just sober comments.

To be clear, we need a Nigel. We don't have him. He was a multifaceted PG. We also had a superior defense. Now, we don't. You cqq think everything is a criticism...you think it's all personal. It's not....not by a stretch even. I like Josh . a good player as a SG. A good stop and pop player. Heck most can put up with sloppy play! This year, we simply don't have the balance an inside game brings. What's to complain about.?? Why do you think you should rag on some who have a different view? Intolerance? Isn't that your strong suit?

We're winning games by a wide margin. Some think that's all that counts. I like to evaluate the mechanics even when we play overmatched teams... Sloppy play and TO's deserve comment. Period. Make no mistake though Cqq, we love the team and the kids. We also want the best for them......and the team. Tex is correct.

:vomit-smiley-007:

Zagdawg
01-06-2018, 08:50 PM
Puke emoji +1