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View Full Version : JWIII and Tillie combined for 9 points



thespywhozaggedme
12-28-2017, 07:03 PM
And 19 last game vs SDSU. I don't think either one is the "go to" guy that many had hoped they'd become. They're both ideally nice "pieces" to a very good team.

MDABE80
12-28-2017, 07:08 PM
Look on the bright side. That can be fixed! But Ruis becoming a
Monster!
Norvell s better and Coeys nearly back!

jazzdelmar
12-28-2017, 07:09 PM
Time to sit them for real. Play the best five.

TexasZagFan
12-28-2017, 07:10 PM
Look on the bright side. That can be fixed! But Ruis becoming a
Monster!
Norvell s better and Coeys nearly back!

Pete and Beach looked good, too!

TexasZagFan
12-28-2017, 07:14 PM
Time to sit them for real. Play the best five.

I thought they had learned their lessons. Few already sent the message, he can’t keep doing that. J3 in particular needs to step up his game. I hope he’s hearing Jacob’s footsteps.

thespywhozaggedme
12-28-2017, 07:17 PM
I thought they had learned their lessons. Few already sent the message, he can’t keep doing that. J3 in particular needs to step up his game. I hope he’s hearing Jacob’s footsteps.

JWIII really has a hard time passing out of the post when doubled, and Tillie makes too many silly errors; Killian Silly.

JPtheBeasta
12-28-2017, 07:32 PM
You can’t have these guys disappear like this in March. Inside-out basketball is the foundation of Few’s offense, and you need guys who can give you easy buckets when things get tough.

I’m happy for Rui and his good play recently.

TexasZagFan
12-28-2017, 07:37 PM
You can’t have these guys disappear like this in March. Inside-out basketball is the foundation of Few’s offense, and you need guys who can give you easy buckets when things get tough.

I’m happy for Rui and his good play recently.

Last year, we had two point guards on the court to start the game. Perhaps Josh needs to make a more concerted effort to get J3 going early.

Kong-Kool-Aid
12-28-2017, 07:58 PM
I wish we could sit people on this forum for boneheaded posts as quickly as some want to sit our players for a below average performance.

thespywhozaggedme
12-28-2017, 08:17 PM
I wish we could sit people on this forum for boneheaded posts as quickly as some want to sit our players for a below average performance.

Dude, you, like me, are irrelevant dorks that post on a message board. What we write has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on what takes place on the court. I think you think we're way more important than we really are. lol

Ezag
12-28-2017, 08:50 PM
I wish we could sit people on this forum for boneheaded posts as quickly as some want to sit our players for a below average performance.

This forum is not that important and neither are most of the opinions expressed especially mine!

thespywhozaggedme
12-28-2017, 08:52 PM
This forum is not that important and neither are most of the opinions expressed especially mine!

Mine is less important than yours! :adored:

WallaWallaZag
12-28-2017, 09:27 PM
I thought they had learned their lessons. Few already sent the message, he canít keep doing that. J3 in particular needs to step up his game. I hope heís hearing Jacobís footsteps.

larsen played just okay...he gives a nice post presence on defense, but he really struggles to score in the post even against smaller guys...his scoring is mostly garbage stuff off rebounds and dunks/layup off feeds from others.
post offense is the one area he is clearly well behind karno at the same stage and is what the zags really could use with the struggles of jw3 and tillie in the same regard

TexasZagFan
12-28-2017, 09:57 PM
larsen played just okay...he gives a nice post presence on defense, but he really struggles to score in the post even against smaller guys...his scoring is mostly garbage stuff off rebounds and dunks/layup off feeds from others.
post offense is the one area he is clearly well behind karno at the same stage and is what the zags really could use with the struggles of jw3 and tillie in the same regard

Larsen’s doing his job: cleaning up the garbage, getting easy buckets, scoring off feeds from his teammates, maintaining a presence in the paint. Tonight, his line was much more efficient than J3.

hooter73
12-28-2017, 10:01 PM
Might as well add Melson in there as an underproducing starter

ezcure17
12-28-2017, 10:02 PM
It might be time to change the starting line up a bit, cause this one is totally out of sync. J3 is not a center, and will NOT play like he did last year as is. He needs to have Larson start at center and be moved to PF, like when PK was here. And Kispert needs to start as well! Time for Tillie and Melson to come off the bench, like they did last year, where they would be more effective

Skimhvn
12-28-2017, 10:06 PM
How about Norvell+Kispert+Rui+JW3+Larsen

WallaWallaZag
12-29-2017, 12:07 AM
How about Norvell+Kispert+Rui+JW3+Larsen

that would be great if they could effectively run the offense...this lineup is probably one year away though (+ substitue clarke/tillie for jw3)

WallaWallaZag
12-29-2017, 12:10 AM
Might as well add Melson in there as an underproducing starter

not so sure melson is underperforming so much as he is what he is...depends what your expectations for him were coming into the year. expected him to hit threes at a slightly higher clip but that's about it...

thespywhozaggedme
12-29-2017, 06:03 AM
For some reason it appears that Few is very hesitant to put Larsen and JWIII on the court at the same time. I don't think I've ever seen them play together as a matter fact.

WallaWallaZag
12-29-2017, 06:22 AM
For some reason it appears that Few is very hesitant to put Larsen and JWIII on the court at the same time. I don't think I've ever seen them play together as a matter fact.

it's because jw3 is such a poor passer and such a non threat on the perimeter combined with the fact larsen can't really create his own shot yet...the two don't go well together...spacing issues as paint gets clogged

when comparing to larsen, people don't realize how much offense karno created for others because he was such a tremendous post scoring threat, often needing to be doubled and basically just occupying a lot of defensive attention...jw3 could play off him, not so with larsen who's already an excellent passer but is a non-scoring threat right now...he doesn't even get deep post position and seal as well as rui has learned to do (which was also karno's bread and butter)

hooter73
12-29-2017, 07:32 AM
At this point the most effective and (glup) consistent line up is looking like Perkins, Norvell, Rui, J3 and Larsen. The post presence is an issue but we do know Larsen can score, and that woudl free J3 up enough to becomne effective again. Melson might be a great defender and reliable for 5 or 7 points per game but we need to up the ante here to really start taking it to some teams, not winning against lower tier teams by only ten points.

Hoopaholic
12-29-2017, 07:43 AM
At this point the most effective and (glup) consistent line up is looking like Perkins, Norvell, Rui, J3 and Larsen. The post presence is an issue but we do know Larsen can score, and that woudl free J3 up enough to becomne effective again. Melson might be a great defender and reliable for 5 or 7 points per game but we need to up the ante here to really start taking it to some teams, not winning against lower tier teams by only ten points.

Not sure I have seen this lineup on the court yet so not sure I can agree this would be most effective

thespywhozaggedme
12-29-2017, 08:28 AM
At this point the most effective and (glup) consistent line up is looking like Perkins, Norvell, Rui, J3 and Larsen. The post presence is an issue but we do know Larsen can score, and that woudl free J3 up enough to becomne effective again. Melson might be a great defender and reliable for 5 or 7 points per game but we need to up the ante here to really start taking it to some teams, not winning against lower tier teams by only ten points.

As I mentioned above Larsen and JWIII have not been on the court together, to the best of my recollection.

hooter73
12-29-2017, 09:17 AM
moreso that idea is based on Rui beginning to put it all together, Tillie not putting it all together, and J3 needing a Center to work off of.

MDABE80
12-29-2017, 09:23 AM
When bigs like these two change their game, it's due to poor spacing and plays being run. These two kids were great last year and for the firs 6 (or so) games this year. Structure and plays are not our strong suit this year. These players haven't changed but how the offense is run is nothing like last year.. It might be that they need an offense like last year to thrive. Both look out of position and both look confused. their skills in terms of running, jumping, shooting and so on have not changed..........unlikely simultaneously. It may well be the system they're in. Big difference this year comparing.

CDC84
12-29-2017, 09:25 AM
JWIII, in the words of one college basketball writer, "just looks flat out tired to me." More than a few college basketball experts have observed that Few has not run hardly any plays for Tillie.....and that is starting from game 1 of the season. It still puzzles me. When JWIII is being tripled teamed at times, Tillie is open. The kid is a high level athlete and is not lacking in skill.

Of course JWIII being a bad foul shooter doesn't help.

That all being said, it just seems as if this team will go as far as Josh Perkins takes it.

bartruff1
12-29-2017, 10:01 AM
Did Kispert 's injury and subsequent lineup changes have anything to do with their involvement in the offense ?

hooter73
12-29-2017, 10:09 AM
thinking about it it was right around then when we started to see the team make the shift from playing like they were to playing like they dont know what to do. interesting thought.

Hoopaholic
12-29-2017, 10:12 AM
Did Kispert 's injury and subsequent lineup changes have anything to do with their involvement in the offense ?

Without a doubt IMO
Losing a starter always creates issues, role changes etc

ZagMan in Philly
12-29-2017, 10:26 AM
As I mentioned above Rui and JWIII have not been on the court together, to the best of my recollection.

they were on court together last night against Pacific. JW fed To Rui down low for an easy two around the 15 min in the first half . It was a great lob from JW. They can play together. As a matter of fact these starting 5 at that time were effective in scoring, rebounding, defense, and not turning the ball over, Rui, JW, Perkins, ZN, Krispert. I like this line up a lot. Rui is ready to be a starter imho.

sittingon50
12-29-2017, 10:33 AM
And just from my own observation (last night), both J3 & Tillie were flat out having bad luck. Both missed some bunnies in the 1st half that normally go down.

Like baseball; a half inch difference might change a line drive into a pop up. Things tend to average out (over time). For the season J3 shooting .529 & Tillie shooting .543. Those are more than acceptable #'s, IMO.

gonzagafan62
12-29-2017, 10:36 AM
Yeah here's a good idea. Let's one star a post when we have different opinions!

thespywhozaggedme
12-29-2017, 10:42 AM
they were on court together last night against Pacific. JW fed To Rui down low for an easy two around the 15 min in the first half . It was a great lob from JW. They can play together. As a matter of fact these starting 5 at that time were effective in scoring, rebounding, defense, and not turning the ball over, Rui, JW, Perkins, ZN, Krispert. I like this line up a lot. Rui is ready to be a starter imho.

I meant Larsen, brain fart on my part, I'll fix it.

amaronizag
12-29-2017, 11:07 AM
In all games, individual player match ups and opponent defensive strategies will significantly impact the offensive contributions of our players. The beauty of this roster is that we have so many guys that can pick up the offensive slack and score when our opponents try to shut down our bigs, or the middle, or specific players. I don't worry when J3 or Tillie don't score many points because others step up to score. The problem occurs when those who would pick up the slack also have an off night scoring. That's when we get NOVA and USDS type beatings. We will get better, and work through these long periods when we can't score a point. We have lapses in intensity and fall into that pattern of long scoring droughts in games every year. What matters is how many points we have at the end of the game. However, once you get too far behind a good team, it's really hard to get enough defensive stops to put yourself back in a game. This year we have had trouble getting those stops when we were behind against tough opponents and our offense failed to capitalize when we got the stops. On the optimistic side, I love that we have 5 guys averaging double figure scoring this year.

JPtheBeasta
12-29-2017, 12:13 PM
A couple of games ago they ran the same play twice for Tillie and it worked. I didn’t see it against Pacific. Tillie set a screen in the ball side/strong side. He cut down the side of the lane and around along the baseline to the weak side block. At the same time, the guards ran some action to get the defense to focus at the top of the key, with the real purpose of ultimately just swinging the ball to the weak side for an easy post-up for Tillie.

sittingon50
12-29-2017, 12:45 PM
Before last night J3 had double/doubles in 3 of the previous 4 games, including 12/15 in the Zag's stinkfest vs SD St.


And some of you knuckleheads want to bench him?

"What have you done for me lately"?

Hoopaholic
12-29-2017, 01:47 PM
:cheers:
Before last night J3 had double/doubles in 3 of the previous 4 games, including 12/15 in the Zag's stinkfest vs SD St.


And some of you knuckleheads want to bench him?

"What have you done for me lately"?

bballbeachbum
12-29-2017, 02:11 PM
Rui attacked off the bounce last night very effectively from varying front court spots. JIII and KT could not, even against Pacific. The spacing is fine, it's the individual abilities of the players in the matchups and what they're asked to do seems to me. Neither JIII nor KT were asked to do much posting up last year, nor were they asked to initiate the offense from the post much last year, and they have struggled with being the main option imo. I give them credit for manning up and trying to do it but so far opposing defenses have gotten the best of that after early season adjustments.

bballbeachbum
12-29-2017, 02:17 PM
they were on court together last night against Pacific. JW fed To Rui down low for an easy two around the 15 min in the first half . It was a great lob from JW. They can play together. As a matter of fact these starting 5 at that time were effective in scoring, rebounding, defense, and not turning the ball over, Rui, JW, Perkins, ZN, Krispert. I like this line up a lot. Rui is ready to be a starter imho.

that play was beautiful and has been effective. I like that lineup too, another for me was at end of first half Rui, JJ, Larsen, Silas and Josh

thespywhozaggedme
12-29-2017, 07:04 PM
Before last night J3 had double/doubles in 3 of the previous 4 games, including 12/15 in the Zag's stinkfest vs SD St.


And some of you knuckleheads want to bench him?

"What have you done for me lately"?

Would coming off the bench prevent him from getting double doubles?

sittingon50
12-29-2017, 07:38 PM
Would coming off the bench prevent him from getting double doubles?

It would not spy. Good point.

But I would assume a decrease in minutes which would make it more difficult. Agreed?

thespywhozaggedme
12-29-2017, 08:20 PM
It would not spy. Good point.

But I would assume a decrease in minutes which would make it more difficult. Agreed?

Not necessarily. Rui came off the bench last night and played more minutes than Tillie and the same amount of minutes as Williams and was the leading scorer.

sittingon50
12-29-2017, 08:41 PM
Not necessarily. Rui came off the bench last night and played more minutes than Tillie and the same amount of minutes as Williams and was the leading scorer.

And got 3 boards.

thespywhozaggedme
12-30-2017, 06:10 AM
And got 3 boards.

Huh? JWIII got 4. What does that have to do with what we're discussing? Anyway, my ideal linup would be to bring JWIII and Melson off of the bench for instant offense and defense. I'd start Perk, Norvell, Kispert, Tillie and Larsen, with JWIII, Rui and Melson coming off of the bench.

jazzdelmar
12-30-2017, 06:16 AM
Few's starting lineup is traditionally immutable. Particularly when it comes to upperclassmen. So don't expect any changes, at all. That's what made the benching of Tillie and JW so shocking.

thespywhozaggedme
12-30-2017, 06:27 AM
Few's starting lineup is traditionally immutable. Particularly when it comes to upperclassmen. So don't expect any changes, at all. That's what made the benching of Tillie and JW so shocking.

I agree, but the benching was only for one game to send a message

jazzdelmar
12-30-2017, 06:32 AM
I agree, but the benching was only for one game to send a message

Of course. And it had its desired effect, if only for a moment. Maybe Few went to school on that move. Doubt it.

Zagger
12-31-2017, 08:51 AM
12 for the two last night. Seemed to me that the guards had a hard time finding Tille or J3 open for passes - and ended up shooting 3s. A Taco night against SC. Tille & J3 do OK when they get rid of the ball quickly as opposed to having possession for any length of time. This is more pronounced with J3. Both had some good scores during last night's game but I don't think they really had the ball all that often. Zags passed it around the perimeter a lot. Not sure how much that was due to SC passing defense or J3 & Tillie getting themselves open for decent passes. Didn't stop the team from scoring 101 points though :)

It also appeared to me last night that Few really got on J3 and Tillie. Not sure what for but Few was quite heated at times. I could hear him across the court in the student section - just not exactly what he was yelling.

WallaWallaZag
12-31-2017, 09:08 AM
the problem is that the zags are having to transition from last year's post-based offense and are still figuring things out...jw3 and tillie just are not great iso post up players...the high-low still works though. larsen might eventually be a guy who you can just throw the ball to and let him go to work, but not now.

ZionZag
12-31-2017, 05:55 PM
the problem is that the zags are having to transition from last year's post-based offense and are still figuring things out...jw3 and tillie just are not great iso post up players...the high-low still works though. larsen might eventually be a guy who you can just throw the ball to and let him go to work, but not now.
YES

Mantua
12-31-2017, 06:33 PM
Ironically, we have four guards who don’t seem to have a problem finishing at the rim.

MDABE80
12-31-2017, 06:52 PM
The bigs aren't being set up as with prior years. Almost an afterthought.. Entirely different offense which is focused on 3 pt shooting with not much of an inside game. Bigs out of position on most plays. Just different from prior years. Few knows as does Michaelson.

thespywhozaggedme
12-31-2017, 08:54 PM
The bigs aren't being set up as with prior years. Almost an afterthought.. Entirely different offense which is focused on 3 pt shooting with not much of an inside game. Bigs out of position on most plays. Just different from prior years. Few knows as does Michaelson.

JWIII and Tillie are just not as advanced offensively in the post as ZC, Shem and Sabonis, it's really that simple.

WallaWallaZag
12-31-2017, 08:58 PM
JWIII and Tillie are just not as advanced offensively in the post as ZC, Shem and Sabonis, it's really that simple.

just going to have to find different ways to generate points in the paint...saw some nice back cuts against sc and more plays designed to create driving opportunities for rui

MDABE80
12-31-2017, 09:46 PM
JWIII and Tillie are just not as advanced offensively in the post as ZC, Shem and Sabonis, it's really that simple.
I don't think you're correct. Shem wasn't too sophisticated. He was just big. Has around the ri skills and clogged the lane. Collins didn't play a ton of minutes but he was a good shot blocker. He wasn't thought of too highly ie a lottery pick... ( thought he'd be around for another season or two) until the South Carolina game. He had decent moves and a good potential........but he didn't score a bunch and his defense was good but he excelled at blocking shots)
Sabonis....agreed in his 2nd year. But also, back then we had guards who set up bigs and this developed them. Made them do things we don't see this year. We haven't developed the inside game as we say. When the inside game lags, so do the bigs.

J3 and Tillie ( for sure) are easily as advanced but with this type of offense, we won't get the best out of them. The one thing that weakens your argument is how the two played at the beginning of the year. Both excelled. With the new guard driven offense and with all the stop and pop offense, the two of them have faded. To be expected.

bballbeachbum
12-31-2017, 11:08 PM
I don't think you're correct. Shem wasn't too sophisticated. He was just big. Has around the ri skills and clogged the lane. Collins didn't play a ton of minutes but he was a good shot blocker. He wasn't thought of too highly ie a lottery pick... ( thought he'd be around for another season or two) until the South Carolina game. He had decent moves and a good potential........but he didn't score a bunch and his defense was good but he excelled at blocking shots)
Sabonis....agreed in his 2nd year. But also, back then we had guards who set up bigs and this developed them. Made them do things we don't see this year. We haven't developed the inside game as we say. When the inside game lags, so do the bigs.

J3 and Tillie ( for sure) are easily as advanced but with this type of offense, we won't get the best out of them. The one thing that weakens your argument is how the two played at the beginning of the year. Both excelled. With the new guard driven offense and with all the stop and pop offense, the two of them have faded. To be expected.

look man, I'm not trying to be a jerk, ok? Happy New Year :cheers:

Shem was very sophisticated...VERY. He was huge, 10 4, but running offense thru him successfully game after game after game is more than that MDABE80. Shem was the one through whom the Zags relied to unlock and reveal opposing defenses game to game, a true luxury. his ability to win position on the block at will and then read the double team and either attack 1v1 or kick was excellent. he's the winningest player in the whole darn thing for a reason man, more than 'He was just big.' that says nothing of his D.

JIII and KT have some awesome skills they've displayed, but not that offensive sophistication Shem allowed Few to rely on, not yet at least

amaronizag
12-31-2017, 11:24 PM
A lot of it has to do with how much the guards trust the people in the paint. It was painful to watch Karno his first couple of years when he was wide open and NOBODY would throw the ball inside to him. He would get so frustrated he got 3 second violations to attract their attention. The same is happening now with Larsen. He's wide open, but like the last resort for the offense at this point. For some reason, it takes a long time to get the trust of those with the ball on the perimeter. I was at the game Saturday night and Larsen was wide, wide open countless times, but nobody would feed him. Hard to watch.

JPtheBeasta
12-31-2017, 11:35 PM
look man, I'm not trying to be a jerk, ok? Happy New Year :cheers:

Shem was very sophisticated...VERY. He was huge, 10 4, but running offense thru him successfully game after game after game is more than that MDABE80. Shem was the one through whom the Zags relied to unlock and reveal opposing defenses game to game, a true luxury. his ability to win position on the block at will and then read the double team and either attack 1v1 or kick was excellent. he's the winningest player in the whole darn thing for a reason man, more than 'He was just big.' that says nothing of his D.

JIII and KT have some awesome skills they've displayed, but not that offensive sophistication Shem allowed Few to rely on, not yet at least

Good post

MDABE80
01-01-2018, 01:23 AM
Shem was a favorite. No doubt. Not so much his first year. he improved in his 2nd year and so forth. He also had Pangos to work with (3 years) as he improved. Then came his injury year but he came back to be very very good in his last year.....the same year he had Nigel. Nobody can argue with this. My post above did shortchange him a bit. The point though, does remain. Get some guards who develop the inside game and you get highly functioning bigs. We're getting to a chicken-egg argument. I'm thinking that for me, it's best to watch the season play out........

MileHigh
01-01-2018, 10:14 AM
The bigs aren't being set up as with prior years. Almost an afterthought.. Entirely different offense which is focused on 3 pt shooting with not much of an inside game. Bigs out of position on most plays. Just different from prior years. Few knows as does Michaelson.

The stats don't support your premise that the bigs are an afterthought in the offense. Last year the main rotation bigs averaged 21.7 shots a game while the main rotation guards averaged 32.3 shots a game, this year the bigs are averaging 26.6 shots a game and the guards are averaging 27.1 shots a game. I think the issue is in consistency of production, JW3 will have 25 one night and 5 the next, same with Tillie. If they even it out they will be OK.

john montana
01-01-2018, 06:18 PM
Every post Abe has made this year has the subtext of “Perkins sucks.” Truth is, jw3 and Tillie are simply not the post up threat that PK was. With jw3 I think it is mainly his inability to pass out of a double team effectively. Hoping he gets better at that.

MDABE80
01-01-2018, 07:18 PM
That's a big wad if bullchit John. Nice chirp. I've said and still do think Josh is a very god shooting guard. He's just not a great point guard like we've had in the past years. I guess I got used to those players. A stop and pop shooting guard is fine by me . As it turns out we don't have anyone like Nigel or Pangos. Wish we did but we don't.
There are many who compare the data but that's not the point. It's how the team is run and managed. Not close. Many disagree but we can do that on this board and survive the season;) We'll see how the new style of play works out as the season progresses.

No worries here.

TexasZagFan
01-01-2018, 07:40 PM
That's a big wad if bullchit John. Nice chirp.

Happy New Year Abe! My lovely bride asked me if you were considering that job offer. That development is about 2/3 built, will eventually add 10,000 new residents to already overbuilt Coppell.

The 25 acre open land across from our house will be the site of a new elementary school.

Sorry for the thread hijack, this threadís about done anyway. I watched the Pacific game again, and I owe J3 an apology. I saw him do quite a few good things that didnít show in the box score. I liked Few taking him out after his first foul, eliminating the chance for a quick second. Johnathan played with a lot of energy when he was on the court.

amaronizag
01-01-2018, 07:46 PM
Ya TX, the 6'10" 260+ pounder J3 was guarding was quite a load. J3 did well. As far as bigs go, I was super impressed with the defense Tillie has played lately. I'm just glad Tillie isn't forcing anything. He picks his spots to score.

MDABE80
01-01-2018, 07:55 PM
Happy New Year Abe! My lovely bride asked me if you were considering that job offer. That development is about 2/3 built, will eventually add 10,000 new residents to already overbuilt Coppell.

The 25 acre open land across from our house will be the site of a new elementary school.

Sorry for the thread hijack, this thread’s about done anyway. I watched the Pacific game again, and I owe J3 an apology. I saw him do quite a few good things that didn’t show in the box score. I liked Few taking him out after his first foul, eliminating the chance for a quick second. Johnathan played with a lot of energy when he was on the court.
Tempting Tex. U of Az offered a nice Tucson Chief's job though. Mulling it over. Next up is UCLA an the non to somewhere. The tour is tiresome but lots of good people to work with. I think this team will adjust and the bigs will come around.
SOunds nice though. Say hello to her too. Happy New Year my friend. Meanwhile, I cn't imgine both bigs wi

MileHigh
01-01-2018, 08:21 PM
That's a big wad if bullchit John. Nice chirp. I've said and still do think Josh is a very god shooting guard. He's just not a great point guard like we've had in the past years. I guess I got used to those players. A stop and pop shooting guard is fine by me . As it turns out we don't have anyone like Nigel or Pangos. Wish we did but we don't.
There are many who compare the data but that's not the point. It's how the team is run and managed. Not close. Many disagree but we can do that on this board and survive the season;) We'll see how the new style of play works out as the season progresses.

No worries here.

If nothing else, you are consistent with your straw man argument. I have not read one post in this forum has suggested that Josh is a better pg than NWG, yet your response to every post on every subject is that Nigel was a a better pg than Josh...we get it. How about a response to my point that the stats show the bigs are shooting more this year than last, how does that fit in with the argument you made that this years the team is much more guard centric than years past and this years bigs are being underused?

MDABE80
01-01-2018, 08:36 PM
Does sound like you know what a "straw man" argument is. And you are correct s quit looking . you won't find a single post from me or anyone else saying Josh is a better PG than Nigel. It doesn't exist. I think the bigs may be shooting more but they're not in position to take advantage of where they receive the ball.. That, as far I'm aware is not quantifiable.. It's just an impression that bigs are further out and not taking the simple "bunnies" as we had in prior years. Thus, more shooting but fed the ball out of position. Quality of the passing I guess. Just an opinion and I cannot know of any way to prove it with meausrements without going back to every game and seeing where each kid shot. Not time for it.

Parenthetically, I usually don't answer silly (lololol) questions....but now I have.

sittingon50
01-01-2018, 08:40 PM
If nothing else, you are consistent with your straw man argument.

Just reference my tag line, MileHigh. Complete waste of time.

MDABE80
01-01-2018, 08:58 PM
Show me the straw man argument Mile. Maybe I missed it.... I have yet to see one. As for 50, we know your thoughts......such that they are. Thanks for stopping. Keep up the good work. ;) Anything constructive you have to add? And clarification of the topic at hand ? Or would just like to continue meager insults?

WallaWallaZag
01-01-2018, 09:30 PM
I think the bigs may be shooting more but they're not in position to take advantage of where they receive the ball.. That, as far I'm aware is not quantifiable.. It's just an impression that bigs are further out and not taking the simple "bunnies" as we had in prior years. Thus, more shooting but fed the ball out of position. Quality of the passing I guess.

why do you assume this is a quality of passing issue instead of a quality of bigs issue? neither tillie nor jw3 are built to get deep post position...seems fairly obvious to me...rui gets deeper post position than either

MDABE80
01-01-2018, 09:33 PM
You might be right WW. I guess, being two very good contributors from last years' team, I expected more.

rennis
01-02-2018, 06:49 AM
Time to sit them for real. Play the best five.

Agreed. Karnowski was what, 2 for 12 against UNC in the Championship game? Unacceptable. He hasn't played since. Serves him right.

WallaWallaZag
01-02-2018, 07:27 AM
You might be right WW. I guess, being two very good contributors from last years' team, I expected more.

i agree there but i think tillie's issue is simply motor/consistency...maybe still hope, and if he doesn't bring it play rui
what concerns me more is that i think jw3 has been figured out...you can double him at will and not fear any consequences because he's such a terrible passer out of the double team...he either still tries to force it or dribbles back out of it before passing. he very rarely finds a cutter or weakside shooter...some posters keep referencing his play at pk80 but those teams played him straight up.

Hoopaholic
01-02-2018, 07:58 AM
i agree there but i think tillie's issue is simply motor/consistency...maybe still hope, and if he doesn't bring it play rui
what concerns me more is that i think jw3 has been figured out...you can double him at will and not fear any consequences because he's such a terrible passer out of the double team...he either still tries to force it or dribbles back out of it before passing. he very rarely finds a cutter or weakside shooter...some posters keep referencing his play at pk80 but those teams played him straight up.

I have watched each game twice and teams after PK80 that were doubling J3 I saw alot of standing around and lack of movement from the wings and perimeter players allowing the full double and even triplle teaming without getting into the passing view of J3....the last couple games we started to see more movement, back cuts, diagonal cuts and sliding into the passing lane and we seen a dramatic improvement on the turnovers by J3.....

thespywhozaggedme
01-02-2018, 08:21 AM
I have watched each game twice and teams after PK80 that were doubling J3 I saw alot of standing around and lack of movement from the wings and perimeter players allowing the full double and even triplle teaming without getting into the passing view of J3....the last couple games we started to see more movement, back cuts, diagonal cuts and sliding into the passing lane and we seen a dramatic improvement on the turnovers by J3.....

Maybe they don't cut because they know that once JWIII gets the ball down low if he's doubled, they ain't getting it back, he's other gonna force a shot or turn it over. lol

Vanzagger
01-02-2018, 08:45 AM
McClellan,Dranginis>Nigel,Jordan.

Abe, why are you so obsessed with last year’s 1 and done players? The previous year’s squad would probably have treated them like Seton Hall & Utah.

The talent on this year’s team? If they are the hardest working team they will have a chance to blow the doors off a couple teams in San Antonio

Hoopaholic
01-02-2018, 09:44 AM
Maybe they don't cut because they know that once JWIII gets the ball down low if he's doubled, they ain't getting it back, he's other gonna force a shot or turn it over. lol

possibly but the last 4 games he has shown ability to provide assist (1-2-1-1) and reduce turnovers (1-1-1-2) so there is improvement...my point is it takes two to tangle many times when dealing with low block turnovers.....70% it is the post player but 30% of the time it is his teammates and their specific timely actions

sittingon50
01-02-2018, 09:48 AM
Agreed. Karnowski was what, 2 for 12 against UNC in the Championship game? Unacceptable. He hasn't played since. Serves him right.

Now that you mention it rennis, I realized you're right! Karno must really be deep in the doghouse 'cause he hasn't even gotten garbage time in Zag blowouts! They're puttin' a manager in there ahead of him, for goodness sakes!

WallaWallaZag
01-02-2018, 11:42 AM
possibly but the last 4 games he has shown ability to provide assist (1-2-1-1) and reduce turnovers (1-1-1-2) so there is improvement...my point is it takes two to tangle many times when dealing with low block turnovers.....70% it is the post player but 30% of the time it is his teammates and their specific timely actions

the decrease in turnovers is certainly a positive sign, but at the same time it appears not forcing it as much has also meant a less aggressive jw3 as he has looked tentative the past 2 games against competition he should be dominating...he just scored 2 and 4 points which is unacceptable even if he's being double-teamed in blowout games with heavy bench play.

Hoopaholic
01-02-2018, 11:56 AM
the decrease in turnovers is certainly a positive sign, but at the same time it appears not forcing it as much has also meant a less aggressive jw3 as he has looked tentative the past 2 games against competition he should be dominating...he just scored 2 and 4 points which is unacceptable even if he's being double-teamed in blowout games with heavy bench play.

disagree with your premise that it was him being tenative......the last two games the clear intent of the defense was to double and soft shade double him at all times telling our perimeter they had to make shots.....it was a breathe of fresh air that he was NOT forcing it against this type of defense and allowed the game come to him and he played very little the second half when the court got spread and lanes became available as most starters were sitting

MontanaCoyote
01-02-2018, 08:27 PM
Good post

Here, Here! "Without him (Przemek Karnowski) Gonzaga is not in Arizona." Matt Norlander, CBSsports.com

Sophisticated enough!