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View Full Version : It's time for conference play to start. What do you think the Zags so far?



Reborn
12-25-2017, 08:39 AM
The OOC play has ended, and it's time to begin thinking about a new beginning, conference play. It all begins Thursday and we have two games this week. The beauty of OOC play is that it gives us a pretty good look at our team. For me, the Zags are no where near the kind of team that I thought they'd be. It's been a roller coaster ride so far. AND honestly, I haven't enjoyed it very much. The team has been a big disappointment.

The losses have hurt, but it's been the kind of sloppy and listless play that has bothered me the most. There is a lack of confidence on this team that I haven't seen in any of the Zag teams in the past. There is also a lack of leadership that goes right along with lack of confidence. There isn't any. There has been one or two players, however who have stepped up to the plate big time, and that's Mr Norvell and Mr Larsen. Norvell has been very impressive, and I have really enjoyed watching him play. He is the one player who has that "refuse to lose" attitude. I feel just about the same kind of feelings for Mr Larsen. The only difference is that Few hasn't given him a chance. But I really do like watching him play. I also enjoyed watching Kispert when he was playing. He seems to have lost something since he's come back from his injury. I hope he finds it again.

JWIII, Perkins, Melson and Tillie have all been disappointments for me. These are the four returning players from last year's play, and two of them were starters. I thought they'd be much better this year than they have shown. The good news is that this team has a lot of time to get it together. I think most Gonzaga fans have believed that Mark Few doesn't need to rebuild his teams because he has so much talent waiting in the wings. He just needs to reload. This may be the first team in a long while that he needs to rebuild. There are so many characteristics that I see that do not look like Gonzaga basketball, as I have come to know it under Mark Few.

I think this is a special year. Special because honestly it's not what I expected. And that doesn't mean it's bad. It's just different. So far the journey has been rocky, but there's a long ways to go.

Go Zags. Good luck in conference play.

Zag up.

bartruff1
12-25-2017, 08:56 AM
I think it is going to be a lot of fun....I expect the games will be more competitive but that Gonzaga will win the Conference with somewhere around 3 losses..... as the freshman learn to play the Few way.... the Gales are the Gaels but BYU has a different look and is playing some defense....games on the road are always tough to win but the Zags will probably hold serve at home...

Hopefully by the time the WCC Tournament rolls around everyone will be healthy and will know the offense and defense and be eager to win the automatic bid......but, in any case, I expect they will go to the NCAA...

webspinnre
12-25-2017, 09:50 AM
The team seems to me to be right about where I thought they'd be. They're very talented and very inconsistent. Based on current play I'd say they probably finish with 5 losses or so, and have a decent shot to make the second weekend.

willandi
12-25-2017, 09:58 AM
This team has shown flashes of greatness, and they have shown inconsistencies.

The most important thing, every year, is conference play. Do well there, and you get in the dance.

The debacle that was SDSU came at a perfect time. They have been shown that no matter how much better you may be, if you don't play better, you will lose. Now they have had a week to allow that message to marinate, to really sok in.

I think the Zags will be ready for the Conference.

JAGzag
12-25-2017, 12:05 PM
This team could just as easily sweep league play as end up with 3-4 more losses. Lack of a star point wont hurt as much in league play but as the season wears on Perkins will wear down. Really wish Wade wasn’t injured.

Zagger
12-25-2017, 02:45 PM
The team will adjust and play well ..... it’s what Zag teams do.

GonzagasaurusFlex
12-25-2017, 03:03 PM
Thanks for this thread Reborn. I agree w you that this year’s team is not so much of a “reloaded” Zags’ squad as has become customary. It has nothing to do with less talent, imho, it’s like this team just has no clear cut identity.

A team that knows how to assert its will at critical junctures of a game by running decisive offensive sets that get your go-to player(s) great looks from scoring positions they’re comfortable in. A team that attacks its opponent defensively.

I think the coaches need to re-think what this team’s identity is. JWIII and Tillie are not low post players and don’t look comfortable there. I’d like to see Larsen start alongside JWIII; Tillie becomes spark off the bench. Maybe let Tillie and Rui sub in together for Larsen and Norvell and immediately up the pace of play by pressing?

75Zag
12-25-2017, 03:12 PM
I dread the WCC regular season because for me it is about as exciting as the NBA regular season where nobody cares who wins or loses until the playoffs begin. Hoping GU solves its issues in the next 8 weeks and is ready to go in Las Vegas.

Go Bulldogs!

GrizZAG
12-25-2017, 03:14 PM
Zags looked better in the PK80 and have digressed since. Kispert was at full tilt then and the loss of him at full strength has hurt. As mentioned J3, Tillie and Perks aren't carrying the load at this time. We always hope "they learned something" after each stinker. Add MF to that list. All we have is hope that the ship gets right and soon.

TexasZagFan
12-25-2017, 03:16 PM
Thanks for this thread Reborn. I agree w you that this year’s team is not so much of a “reloaded” Zags’ squad as has become customary. It has nothing to do with less talent, imho, it’s like this team just has no clear cut identity.

A team that knows how to assert its will at critical junctures of a game by running decisive offensive sets that get your go-to player(s) great looks from scoring positions they’re comfortable in. A team that attacks its opponent defensively.

I think the coaches need to re-think what this team’s identity is. JWIII and Tillie are not low post players and don’t look comfortable there. I’d like to see Larsen start alongside JWIII; Tillie becomes spark off the bench. Maybe let Tillie and Rui sub in together for Larsen and Norvell and immediately up the pace of play by pressing?

J3 has demonstrated an ability to assert his will during a game, but there are two deficiencies in his game that hinder him: poor FT shooting and ball handling. The latter shouldn’t be an issue against most WCC foes.

Reborn
12-25-2017, 08:51 PM
J3 has demonstrated an ability to assert his will during a game, but there are two deficiencies in his game that hinder him: poor FT shooting and ball handling. The latter shouldn’t be an issue against most WCC foes.

JW3 has played really well at times. His problem is consistency, and staying out of foul trouble, and as you say, turnovers. Conference play is NEVER EASY. That's a fact. As soon as anyone doesn't believe it tough, there will be a loss. We saw how North Dakota and IUPUI played against us. The Zags this year so far, do not know how to come out and crush teams, and this will lead to a loss or two. Will be playing like Gonzaga by March? That's what this year is going to be about. It'll be interesting for sure. Hope to see Wade play.

GeorgiaZagFan
12-25-2017, 11:19 PM
...I believe if they can fix the turnover problem they have all the pieces to do well into March....if they can't, they are liable to lose 3 or 4 games in conference this year...

WallaWallaZag
12-26-2017, 03:36 AM
inconsistent...you can say they played better in the pk80, but those were also teams willing to run up and down the court with the zags, just like creighton/huskies.
this version of the zags will look good anytime a team wants to run with them...they'll struggle in grind it out games, so i think there will be some wcc losses.
if zags turn it over against smc they will lose...just not enough possessions against the gaels to turn it over 15+ times.
byu is supposedly playing some "d" for once, but i'll believe it when i see it...if byu runs with the zags, they'll lose by double digits.

jazzdelmar
12-26-2017, 04:50 AM
I dread the WCC regular season because for me it is about as exciting as the NBA regular season where nobody cares who wins or loses until the playoffs begin. Hoping GU solves its issues in the next 8 weeks and is ready to go in Las Vegas.

Go Bulldogs!

Perfectly put.

cggonzaga
12-26-2017, 05:38 AM
Spoiled fan base. Many seemed to have forgotten where we came from. Not every GU team will be national championship contender. This team may not be that but a team that loses 5-6 games tops is still very good especially considering OOC schedule they’ve played. Normally a GU team with wins over OSU, Texas and Creighton would be celebrated.

It’s all about the journey now and getting better and more consistent. Nobody will want to see this Gonzaga team as a 5-7 seed in their bracket come March.

jazzdelmar
12-26-2017, 06:39 AM
Spoiled fan base. Many seemed to have forgotten where we came from. Not every GU team will be national championship contender. This team may not be that but a team that loses 5-6 games tops is still very good especially considering OOC schedule they’ve played. Normally a GU team with wins over OSU, Texas and Creighton would be celebrated.

It’s all about the journey now and getting better and more consistent. Nobody will want to see this Gonzaga team as a 5-7 seed in their bracket come March.

I don't think most quarrel as much about the record as the way the team has performed. Very Un-Zag like. Sloppy, lack of hustle, that sort of stuff.

RenoZag
12-26-2017, 08:20 AM
I don't think most quarrel as much about the record as the way the team has performed. Very Un-Zag like. Sloppy, lack of hustle, that sort of stuff.

Nails it.

TexasZagFan
12-26-2017, 08:33 AM
I don't think most quarrel as much about the record as the way the team has performed. Very Un-Zag like. Sloppy, lack of hustle, that sort of stuff.

Compared to last year's team, we are really going through some growing pains, situational awareness is lacking. For example, after being called for a moving screen, a light should go on, i.e. make sure feet are set for the rest of the game.

Man defense from the guards needs to improve, too. Not picking on one individual, but Jeremy let the Aztec he was guarding blow right by him in the last minute or so. They all have to do a better job of staying in front of their man.

Help defense needs to improve, lack of communication on the court. Points to lack of game experience for those not named Perkins, Melson, or Williams.

raise the zag
12-26-2017, 09:44 AM
I love the Zags, yet I don't like this team.

I'm a fan of their respective talents, games, and ability, yet outside Larsen's development, Kispert when healthy, and Rui on occasion, I just don't like tuning into games this season.

First time in 20+ yrs I've been forgetting, maybe intentionally, and missing games.

Just not a fun team watch compete this year. It could be the perfect storm, of players playing out of position, veterans incapable of leading, youngsters getting the feet wet, lack of court chemistry/identity, selective motors/heart, list goes on....

All forgivable and part of being a fan, and I will care and love this team unconditionally, yet just don't like watching them play the game. Not this year. Its has NOTHING to do with results either. We could be 0-12 and I'd still like watching them compete, but not this group.

I'm a lifelong Buffalo Bill fan, so I know heart break, and I know what its like to be the worst team in sports, and go through rough patches, yet we could be undefeated right now and I'm certain I'd feel the same way. I can't connect with this team, only 1 or 2 players, and this is the first time its happened.

Even Coach Few looks disinterested in Coaching this team to a certain extent, imho. He even conceded last game and said, "Its our leaders who can't figure it out, so I just have to let them play and hopefully they will stop turning it over, etc".

I feel the same way as a fan. Just a disappointing team.

The good news? Maybe they can come around and start playing GONZAGA (NOT AAU) basketball. Its not too late. I'm hopeful, but low expectations from here on out -- have a feeling these guys will be responsible, yes responsible for the end of the streak. There just isn't a want-to on this team. They have moments, sure, but overall no leadership. Not even an Eric McClellan type to snap them out of it. No one guy to stand up in the middle of a lockerroom, yell, cry, plead to get their minds right and hearts. He did that, but that is no where near Perkins, Silas, J3 types. They are all very reserved guys, complimentary pieces for too long, and while they say the right thing in an interview, they are actually very reserved as leaders, actually all 3 are shy kids. They have flair and flash, but not leaders whatsoever. That's why this year feels like an anomaly.

Kispert is a leader. So is Norvell. They have the traits needed to focus a team/group and rally troops, etc.

Our current seniors could lead by example but are too inconsistent, not to mention leading the team in TO's.

I honestly feel Coach Few recognizes this as well, there is only so much he can do this year, as evidenced by his lack of timeouts in critical moments in SDSU. It was senseless, but maybe makes more sense given his current group of "leaders".

cjm720
12-26-2017, 10:49 AM
Love this team like most others. We are underfeated if we can take care of the ball just slightly better. Perkins is the key at this point without question. We live and die by his play the rest of the way. I would like to see Few lengthen the leash on the bench especially in wins that appear to be in the bag.

IMO of course.

Hoopaholic
12-26-2017, 11:14 AM
Excited for the rest of the season
Amazed at the naysayers...missed free throw and we have two losses. Shoot average against sdsu and we have single loss

We are replacing 3 starters and a big time 6 man
Retooling and changing team concepts takes time especially with a host of newbies
We lost a starter to injury who is just getting back to 100% and will be a force in league play

I see growth and improvement as well as an understanding of each other's strengths and weaknesses with a very high ceiling for them to strive for

Go zags

cggonzaga
12-26-2017, 06:37 PM
Excited for the rest of the season
Amazed at the naysayers...missed free throw and we have two losses. Shoot average against sdsu and we have single loss

We are replacing 3 starters and a big time 6 man
Retooling and changing team concepts takes time especially with a host of newbies
We lost a starter to injury who is just getting back to 100% and will be a force in league play

I see growth and improvement as well as an understanding of each other's strengths and weaknesses with a very high ceiling for them to strive for

Go zags

Agree hoop. Not the first time this fan base has questioned a team when things aren’t perfect.

GoZags
12-26-2017, 06:53 PM
Agree hoop. Not the first time this fan base has questioned a team when things aren’t perfect.

I would say not the first time PART of this fan base has questioned a team when things aren't perfect.

MDABE80
12-26-2017, 06:55 PM
I love the Zags, yet I don't like this team.

I'm a fan of their respective talents, games, and ability, yet outside Larsen's development, Kispert when healthy, and Rui on occasion, I just don't like tuning into games this season.

First time in 20+ yrs I've been forgetting, maybe intentionally, and missing games.

Just not a fun team watch compete this year. It could be the perfect storm, of players playing out of position, veterans incapable of leading, youngsters getting the feet wet, lack of court chemistry/identity, selective motors/heart, list goes on....

All forgivable and part of being a fan, and I will care and love this team unconditionally, yet just don't like watching them play the game. Not this year. Its has NOTHING to do with results either. We could be 0-12 and I'd still like watching them compete, but not this group.

I'm a lifelong Buffalo Bill fan, so I know heart break, and I know what its like to be the worst team in sports, and go through rough patches, yet we could be undefeated right now and I'm certain I'd feel the same way. I can't connect with this team, only 1 or 2 players, and this is the first time its happened.

Even Coach Few looks disinterested in Coaching this team to a certain extent, imho. He even conceded last game and said, "Its our leaders who can't figure it out, so I just have to let them play and hopefully they will stop turning it over, etc".

I feel the same way as a fan. Just a disappointing team.

The good news? Maybe they can come around and start playing GONZAGA (NOT AAU) basketball. Its not too late. I'm hopeful, but low expectations from here on out -- have a feeling these guys will be responsible, yes responsible for the end of the streak. There just isn't a want-to on this team. They have moments, sure, but overall no leadership. Not even an Eric McClellan type to snap them out of it. No one guy to stand up in the middle of a lockerroom, yell, cry, plead to get their minds right and hearts. He did that, but that is no where near Perkins, Silas, J3 types. They are all very reserved guys, complimentary pieces for too long, and while they say the right thing in an interview, they are actually very reserved as leaders, actually all 3 are shy kids. They have flair and flash, but not leaders whatsoever. That's why this year feels like an anomaly.

Kispert is a leader. So is Norvell. They have the traits needed to focus a team/group and rally troops, etc.

Our current seniors could lead by example but are too inconsistent, not to mention leading the team in TO's.

I honestly feel Coach Few recognizes this as well, there is only so much he can do this year, as evidenced by his lack of timeouts in critical moments in SDSU. It was senseless, but maybe makes more sense given his current group of "leaders".

This is a stunning post. Congrats. Wow!

cggonzaga
12-26-2017, 07:18 PM
I would say not the first time PART of this fan base has questioned a team when things aren't perfect.

True.

GU69
12-26-2017, 07:59 PM
They're very talented and very inconsistent.

This says it for me. They are amazingly talented and can be wonderful. However, the inconsistency is . . . well, consistent. They look like a freshman team. I'm hoping that Few can get them to pull together and cut out the foolish mistakes.

Hoopaholic
12-26-2017, 08:28 PM
This says it for me. They are amazingly talented and can be wonderful. However, the inconsistency is . . . well, consistent. They look like a freshman team. I'm hoping that Few can get them to pull together and cut out the foolish mistakes.

Happens when you have 2 seniors 2 juniors 1 sophomore and 4 freshman playing

MDABE80
12-26-2017, 10:03 PM
Don't know if the years/experience of the players matter so much Hoopaholic. In general the product of inconsistent leadership generates inconsistent results. The data some are so keen on when compares this guy to that guy as they make a case for something or other... really doesn't mean much when the direction of the team and quality of play suffers. Josh has the numbers......actually they compare with some in the past who did well. Josh and Nigel's number are not that far off. What's far off is the positioning of bigs, how the bigs are fed, play calling, the type of play ( structured vs frantically fast paced), fancy alley oops vs simple lay ins after 2 or 3 nice passes, just plain direction of the team itself, crazy careless passing vs more controlled pinpoint functional passing, and a series of things that are different from prior years with Pangos, Nigel and how the team was managed.

I suppose too that the defense has suffered for many of similar reasons. They never set up, they don't "help" much. Larsen is much better prepared to manage the key but when the guards( outside of Silas) watch a player blow by him instead of defending, defense will look bad. An inconsistent high flying offense but weak defense with critical errors is what we're seeing.

Given the youth and injuries on the team, the defense may continue to struggle unless Few sits on the culprits who , when I watch, look like they don't care too much about defense and surely don't play much of it. Just get the ball back and go wild again with the high flying habits.

We really do need to use the upcoming easy games in league to revamp things on offense and defense. We're kinda stuck with Josh (he plays like he plays!) as PG's of the future were recruited ( a pair of frosh). I do think Wade might be helpful. His style is controlled and I doubt he can do the up and down racehorse unstructured play. It's not his style. I know that for me, a 65-50 win is much better that what we're seeing so far.

TO be crystal clear to the board, this is not intended to be critical.....surely not of Josh ( who I've said all along is a good SG) but it's my opinion after seeing the past few years of teams.

Goshzagit
12-27-2017, 06:48 AM
Don't know if the years/experience of the players matter so much Hoopaholic. In general the product of inconsistent leadership generates inconsistent results. The data some are so keen on when compares this guy to that guy as they make a case for something or other... really doesn't mean much when the direction of the team and quality of play suffers. Josh has the numbers......actually they compare with some in the past who did well. Josh and Nigel's number are not that far off. What's far off is the positioning of bigs, how the bigs are fed, play calling, the type of play ( structured vs frantically fast paced), fancy alley oops vs simple lay ins after 2 or 3 nice passes, just plain direction of the team itself, crazy careless passing vs more controlled pinpoint functional passing, and a series of things that are different from prior years with Pangos, Nigel and how the team was managed.

I suppose too that the defense has suffered for many of similar reasons. They never set up, they don't "help" much. Larsen is much better prepared to manage the key but when the guards( outside of Silas) watch a player blow by him instead of defending, defense will look bad. An inconsistent high flying offense but weak defense with critical errors is what we're seeing.

Given the youth and injuries on the team, the defense may continue to struggle unless Few sits on the culprits who , when I watch, look like they don't care too much about defense and surely don't play much of it. Just get the ball back and go wild again with the high flying habits.

We really do need to use the upcoming easy games in league to revamp things on offense and defense. We're kinda stuck with Josh (he plays like he plays!) as PG's of the future were recruited ( a pair of frosh). I do think Wade might be helpful. His style is controlled and I doubt he can do the up and down racehorse unstructured play. It's not his style. I know that for me, a 65-50 win is much better that what we're seeing so far.

TO be crystal clear to the board, this is not intended to be critical.....surely not of Josh ( who I've said all along is a good SG) but it's my opinion after seeing the past few years of teams.

Nice post, Abe. Very well put.

Hoopaholic
12-27-2017, 07:51 AM
Don't know if the years/experience of the players matter so much Hoopaholic. In general the product of inconsistent leadership generates inconsistent results. The data some are so keen on when compares this guy to that guy as they make a case for something or other... really doesn't mean much when the direction of the team and quality of play suffers. Josh has the numbers......actually they compare with some in the past who did well. Josh and Nigel's number are not that far off. What's far off is the positioning of bigs, how the bigs are fed, play calling, the type of play ( structured vs frantically fast paced), fancy alley oops vs simple lay ins after 2 or 3 nice passes, just plain direction of the team itself, crazy careless passing vs more controlled pinpoint functional passing, and a series of things that are different from prior years with Pangos, Nigel and how the team was managed.

I suppose too that the defense has suffered for many of similar reasons. They never set up, they don't "help" much. Larsen is much better prepared to manage the key but when the guards( outside of Silas) watch a player blow by him instead of defending, defense will look bad. An inconsistent high flying offense but weak defense with critical errors is what we're seeing.

Given the youth and injuries on the team, the defense may continue to struggle unless Few sits on the culprits who , when I watch, look like they don't care too much about defense and surely don't play much of it. Just get the ball back and go wild again with the high flying habits.

We really do need to use the upcoming easy games in league to revamp things on offense and defense. We're kinda stuck with Josh (he plays like he plays!) as PG's of the future were recruited ( a pair of frosh). I do think Wade might be helpful. His style is controlled and I doubt he can do the up and down racehorse unstructured play. It's not his style. I know that for me, a 65-50 win is much better that what we're seeing so far.

TO be crystal clear to the board, this is not intended to be critical.....surely not of Josh ( who I've said all along is a good SG) but it's my opinion after seeing the past few years of teams.

Inconsistent results? 10-3 with free throw away from 11-2 and a few normally made shots away from 12-1.....pretty consistent winning from my perspective

It's ok to agree to disagree....roles ( especially when major versus support) space movement, learning strengths and weakness as well as tendencies all are critical components of a smooth functioning offense. And takes time to learn and only occurs from runtime

But it's odd first sentence you say it's not because of youth then 3 paragraph you say because of youth defense struggling

I guess we shall see if we see improvement on both sides of the court

GrizZAG
12-27-2017, 08:58 AM
"Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you are going to get"
Sums up this team
Kills a very good Creighton, nearly let's one go to UND, flubs on a SDSU team we should have easily beat.

zagzilla
12-27-2017, 09:52 AM
This is about what I expected coming in to the season. Remember, recruiting has a 1-3 year lead time and the staff was probably expecting to have Nigel and Zach around this year. They bolted (unwisely, IMO) to the draft and that left the roster unbalanced especially at PG. The team has showed flashes of greatness and then uncharacteristic lapses. Turnovers are what make this team painful to watch even when they win-see Texas and N Dakota.

The WCC is about the same as it usually is and we need to take care of our business. SMC was written off after losing to WSU & GA but they are dangerous. Unlike the Zags, they have one of the lowest turnover rates in the NCAA. Defense is just OK but they won't beat themselves. We could split with BYU as well. Figure one other bad night somewhere in Feb-maybe at San Diego and this team could enter the WCC tourney with 5-6 losses. If we pick up a 7th loss and don't collect the autobid, the Zags are a bubble team with a 8-12 seed line.

San Diego loss likely means we are a 6 seed tops with the autobid.

The coaching staff needs to figure out how to get the most out of this group and so far they haven't. However, I think they will be fine.

ZZ

ZagsGoZags
12-27-2017, 10:32 AM
They may not gel until last half of Feb, like two years ago.
I best hope is to expect at least one loss to BYU or SMC, and one loss to a frenetic WCC team playing out of their minds and we choke.
My lesser expectations are more than two WCC losses this year.

MileHigh
12-27-2017, 10:51 AM
Some of these posts make me laugh out loud when posters characterize Gonzaga as this high flying, ally ooping, aau style of team..lol. The way Gonzaga plays this year doesnt even come close to the style the real run and gun type teams play. Sure, they run more than they used to, but they still try and get post touches on just about every possession, run absolutely ZERO dribble drive iso stuff, and might get one or two ally oops a game (Kentucky and Duke get that many first 5 minutes of the game). Without a true dominant post guy this year, Few decided to play a little different to take advantage of his strengths (perimeter shooting) and thus far it has worked out OK, but certainly a work in progress.

They are 10-3 going into conference play and some on here seen to think the sky is falling. If they start taking care of the ball better(especially JP and JW3) and defend the 3 point line better they will be at least a sweet sixteen team this year and maybe better.

zagzilla
12-27-2017, 10:51 AM
From ESPN: http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/21882425/the-most-important-thing-every-major-conference-country

"The most important thing in every major conference in the country" (LOVE that they include WCC in their discussion of Top 8 major conferences)
"The West Coast Conference: Saint Mary's poise"

Gonzaga (San Diego State) and Saint Mary's (Washington State) have suffered unexpected nonconference losses. But they're still the two teams to beat in the West Coast Conference.

After losing stars from last season's national runner-up, Gonzaga returned with a talented group that's backed by Silas Melson's increased workload and Killian Tillie's starring role. Saint Mary's returned Jock Landale and the bulk of its key contributors from a year ago.

The difference in the two Saint Mary's-Gonzaga regular-season matchups that could determine the WCC title could be the Gaels' poise and the slipping defense of the Bulldogs, who finished No. 1 in adjusted defensive efficiency on KenPom.com last season.

Saint Mary's is ranked first in turnover rate this year. Last year, the Gaels committed 14 turnovers in a loss to Gonzaga in the WCC tournament title game, their third loss of the season to their rivals, so their improvement in this crucial element of the game could help them prevail in this season's matchups against Gonzaga and win the WCC crown."

Seems like they are anticipating SMC to prevail over GU. They could be right if turnovers are still a problem in a month.

BYU and SMC tangle this Saturday which will be our first real look at our two main rivals. Who are you rooting for?

JPtheBeasta
12-27-2017, 10:58 AM
There is a lot of untapped potential on this team. I like the individual pieces but the puzzle isn't quite solved yet. They have underachieved so far, in my estimation,but at least there are two months of opportunity ahead of this team. My worry is that they can beat anybody- but are a team that could lose to anybody, also. I fear an early exit in March because of the inconsistent play of ours bigs, mostly.

MileHigh
12-27-2017, 11:07 AM
There is a lot of untapped potential on this team. I like the individual pieces but the puzzle isn't quite solved yet. They have underachieved so far, in my estimation,but at least there are two months of opportunity ahead of this team. My worry is that they can beat anybody- but are a team that could lose to anybody, also. I fear an early exit in March because of the inconsistent play of ours bigs, mostly.

underachieved in style points or underachieved in w-l? w-l i dont think anyone can say they have underachieved

When I first saw the schedule I figured the Villanova game at MSG was a loss and they would lose one game in the PK80.

I would submit that the only real unexpected loss was to SDSU. Florida was a coin toss game between two top 20 teams that Zags barely lost and Villanova is simply a better team.

Hoopaholic
12-27-2017, 11:14 AM
:cheers:
Some of these posts make me laugh out loud when posters characterize Gonzaga as this high flying, ally ooping, aau style of team..lol. The way Gonzaga plays this year doesnt even come close to the style the real run and gun type teams play. Sure, they run more than they used to, but they still try and get post touches on just about every possession, run absolutely ZERO dribble drive iso stuff, and might get one or two ally oops a game (Kentucky and Duke get that many first 5 minutes of the game). Without a true dominant post guy this year, Few decided to play a little different to take advantage of his strengths (perimeter shooting) and thus far it has worked out OK, but certainly a work in progress.

They are 10-3 going into conference play and some on here seen to think the sky is falling. If they start taking care of the ball better(especially JP and JW3) and defend the 3 point line better they will be at least a sweet sixteen team this year and maybe better.

Reborn
12-27-2017, 11:33 AM
I would say not the first time PART of this fan base has questioned a team when things aren't perfect.

I will say that I don't agree with this assessment, GoZags. I am pretty sure that very, very few people have "given up" on the
Zags. I am sure that MOST of us here love this team also. However, when criticism is appropriate I think to criticize and speak honestly, is a sign of love. That is why I love my family and good friends. We can criticize, and do, each other when it's appropriate and needed. I believe mature people can handle criticism, and I know athletes can. There are many good qualities this team has, and that individual players on this team have. As was said in a post by someone, I believe Jazz was the one, who said that we who criticized the team were criticizing mostly lack of effort that we usually see from a Gonzaga team, as well as the turn over rate that we have seen by our LEADERS. Careless with the ball, and the inability of a few players to begin to change their attitude about this carelessness, has also been a point that I think is legitimate.

I also doubt that most who have criticized the team recently, really expect the team to be perfect. I think most believed that there would be losses this year. I know I don't expect the team to be perfect. However, I do expect the team to give it 100% effort every game. AND I do expect them to listen, analyze and CHANGE when it's needed. I also expect a leader to lead. I hope it happens. I understand how Mark Few feels, as illustrated by Raise the Flag. He has had to coach this way before. I think it was only two years ago that that particular Gonzaga team had similar problems.

I believe that these problems will be worked out by the team, and that by March they will be a better team. I am at least hoping that we'll see the players give 100%, and play Gonzaga basketball, which is TEAM FIRST basketball.

JPtheBeasta
12-27-2017, 11:38 AM
underachieved in style points or underachieved in w-l? w-l i dont think anyone can say they have underachieved

When I first saw the schedule I figured the Villanova game at MSG was a loss and they would lose one game in the PK80.

I would submit that the only real unexpected loss was to SDSU. Florida was a coin toss game between two top 20 teams that Zags barely lost and Villanova is simply a better team.

I'm actually fine with their record, but the way they have played has been disappointing at times, particularly because of how much potential these players have.

I do not want to affirm you characterization, as it seems to be a false dichotomy of W/L record versus style points. There is way to play that will help them avoid an early exit against a halfway decent team that is willing to slow down the game and muck it up. When possessions are limited and shots aren't falling, I'm not confident that this team has the wherewithal to gut it out, value the ball, avoid stupid fouls at crunch time, and make winning plays. In other words, this team isn't playing intelligently right now, in my view. I'm not expecting aesthetically pleasing basketball- I'm talking about playing winning basketball when things aren't going well, the 50/50 balls aren't bouncing your way, the 50/50 calls from the refs aren't going your way, and the game isn't pretty.

Reborn
12-27-2017, 11:53 AM
I'm actually fine with their record, but the way they have played has been disappointing at times, particularly because of how much potential these players have.

I do not want to affirm you characterization, as it seems to be a false dichotomy of W/L record versus style points. There is way to play that will help them avoid an early exit against a halfway decent team that is willing to slow down the game and muck it up. When possessions are limited and shots aren't falling, I'm not confident that this team has the wherewithal to gut it out, value the ball, avoid stupid fouls at crunch time, and make winning plays. In other words, this team isn't playing intelligently right now, in my view. I'm not expecting aesthetically pleasing basketball- I'm talking about playing winning basketball when things aren't going well, the 50/50 balls aren't bouncing your way, the 50/50 calls from the refs aren't going your way, and the game isn't pretty.

And let's not forget missing free throws at the end of game......by our guards.

I think one problem that I see, that hasn't been talked about very much is team chemistry. I believe that this is the biggest problem that this team has. I'm not convinced that they like to play with each other, and more importantly I think that there are a few players who don't like their roles on this team.

Goshzagit
12-27-2017, 12:19 PM
https://www.askideas.com/media/40/Some-years-you-get-bad-luck.-Some-years-you-make-some-mistakes.-Some-years-kids-show-up-and-theyre-not-as-good-as-we-think-theyre-gonna-be.jpg

DADoZAG
12-27-2017, 12:31 PM
[ETA: For fans t]o question effort or heart is silly.

Valuing the victories is a winning attitude, as is learning from the defeats.

Injuries happen but nice potential. No, real nice potential.

In Heister's interview, Rui said something to the effect that the coaches are pushing him, telling him he can do "it". Paraphrasing further, he admitted that he finds he can do "it" when he really tries. Rui's only one of a few players not yet to their potential.

Staff is no doubt excited for their vision to clarify.

Go ZAGS! Beat Pacific!

jazzdelmar
12-27-2017, 12:35 PM
Hmmm, what exactly was that old fart talking about?

TexasZagFan
12-27-2017, 12:37 PM
Afternoon musing...has any thought been given to letting Rui play some minutes at the five, leaving J3 at his natural position the 4?

He's got the wingspan to offset his height, and IIRC, he played a lot of minutes at center for Japan during the FIBA World Cup last summer.

The more minutes Johnathan gets at the 4, the better. Rui could also draw the opponent's center further out.

Just a thought.

MileHigh
12-27-2017, 12:57 PM
. I'm not convinced that they like to play with each other

Well, this is one thing that I can say is 100% incorrect. While last years team was close knit, this years team is even more so. These kids love each other, love playing for one another, and look at each other as brothers. I have seen it, and heard it, up close and personal. As for certain players not liking their roles, that is a constant on just about every team at every level. Back ups want to start, bench warmers want to play....but in terms of players not liking their role in terms of their touches, shots, etc, I dont see that at all.

MDABE80
12-27-2017, 12:57 PM
Inconsistent results? 10-3 with free throw away from 11-2 and a few normally made shots away from 12-1.....pretty consistent winning from my perspective

It's ok to agree to disagree....roles ( especially when major versus support) space movement, learning strengths and weakness as well as tendencies all are critical components of a smooth functioning offense. And takes time to learn and only occurs from runtime

But it's odd first sentence you say it's not because of youth then 3 paragraph you say because of youth defense struggling

I guess we shall see if we see improvement on both sides of the court

No what I said was "I don't know" about the youth factor. 1st line, 1st para. The second reference is about careless defense. It seem that you're not seeing that we look awful even when when we win games. The last few were quite telling. If you only care about victories, you're in good shape with your statements above. I don't and here's why: the quality of play sucks now and if not improved, we'll be lucky to get into the tournament and if we do, we'll be gone in the first weekend like most pretenders. Do you not think people across the country are ignoring our play? This is not how the Zags continue their legend.

SO yes, I'm standing by what I wrote. Things need to be changed.......for the better. The easiest thing to change ( since the offensive is much harder to alter given our situation) is the defense. We need to start playing hard defense. And why not? We've got big kids, we've got superior athletes with good foot speed and lateral movement. So where are we lacking? Is it coaching? I doubt it even though it's obvious nobody's let the kids know they play D or they don't play. Alternatively, is it the players' will to get in the trenches and actually focus on D? One of the two....no other choices. I'm thinking it's both. A joint effort might help....i. e. coaches enforce and the kids comply. Either of those is ignored and we're in for a long season.

We've got 4 kids Josh, Silas, Tillie and J3 who have lots of experience. True, we' had different leaders in the past. Each kid unto himself needs to know it's on them. Coaches need to let em know that too. Of course, a non invite or a quick out isn't the worst thing to ever happen to us. I'd at least like our 20 season consecutive invites continue......\

So let face some things. Josh is Josh and that ok for most. What's chewable is the defense. To that end, I'd get Larsen (uninjured version) in the middle and get him to do what he does ie block shots, clog up the middle to stop unhindered drives and put some points up. It's worked in the past and it should work again. Right now that key is wide open to everyone.
And once again, I'm not arguing with anyone. It's just how I see it.

Hoopaholic
12-27-2017, 01:06 PM
No what I said was "I don't know" about the youth factor. 1st line, 1st para. The second reference is about careless defense. It seem that you're not seeing that we look awful even when when we win games. The last few were quite telling. If you only care about victories, you're in good shape with your statements above. I don't and here's why: the quality of play sucks now and if not improved, we'll be lucky to get into the tournament and if we do, we'll be gone in the first weekend like most pretenders. Do you not think people across the country are ignoring our play? This is not how the Zags continue their legend.

SO yes, I'm standing by what I wrote. Things need to be changed.......for the better. The easiest thing to change ( since the offensive is much harder to alter given our situation) is the defense. We need to start playing hard defense. And why not? We've got big kids, we've got superior athletes with good foot speed and lateral movement. So where are we lacking? Is it coaching? I doubt it even though it's obvious nobody's let the kids know they play D or they don't play. Alternatively, is it the players' will to get in the trenches and actually focus on D? One of the two....no other choices. I'm thinking it's both. A joint effort might help....i. e. coaches enforce and the kids comply. Either of those is ignored and we're in for a long season.

We've got 4 kids Josh, Silas, Tillie and J3 who have lots of experience. True, we' had different leaders in the past. Each kid unto himself needs to know it's on them. Coaches need to let em know that too. Of course, a non invite or a quick out isn't the worst thing to ever happen to us. I'd at least like our 20 season consecutive invites continue......\

So let face some things. Josh is Josh and that ok for most. What's chewable is the defense. To that end, I'd get Larsen (uninjured version) in the middle and get him to do what he does ie block shots, clog up the middle to stop unhindered drives and put some points up. It's worked in the past and it should work again. Right now that key is wide open to everyone.
And once again, I'm not arguing with anyone. It's just how I see it.

Agree with the need to improve on the defensive end in particular closeouts, help angle and on ball dribble drive defense

Disagree with offense as we are 8 best in nation and almost every statistical category is up save turnovers

GrizZAG
12-27-2017, 01:14 PM
Ok, going way out there but I think this particular team could beat any team in the country on the right night. That is a vote of confidence that we have the goods but it isn't quite gelling of late and a couple key components are still dealing a bit with injury. My biggest beef is our passing on the perimeter and not taking care of the damn ball. We are also passing up shots from outside too often. Not enough inside out game IMO.

Reborn
12-27-2017, 03:13 PM
Well, this is one thing that I can say is 100% incorrect. While last years team was close knit, this years team is even more so. These kids love each other, love playing for one another, and look at each other as brothers. I have seen it, and heard it, up close and personal. As for certain players not liking their roles, that is a constant on just about every team at every level. Back ups want to start, bench warmers want to play....but in terms of players not liking their role in terms of their touches, shots, etc, I dont see that at all.

I'm curious. Honestly. What do you see? Have you been watching how players screen for each other? Or have you seen how they help out on defense? Explain this "close nit" group to me, especially as they are playing on the court?

MDABE80
12-27-2017, 03:43 PM
Agree with the need to improve on the defensive end in particular closeouts, help angle and on ball dribble drive defense

Disagree with offense as we are 8 best in nation and almost every statistical category is up save turnovers

Offense is not the problem.........if you only count points. Other items matter though..........

MDABE80
12-27-2017, 03:44 PM
I'm curious. Honestly. What do you see? Have you been watching how players screen for each other? Or have you seen how they help out on defense? Explain this "close nit" group to me, especially as they are playing on the court?

800 miles away as the crow flies Reborn. He really knows little. Just a talker.
Not worth your time.

bballbeachbum
12-27-2017, 06:04 PM
offense is a problem to my eyes because there is nothing to consistently go to, especially inside, to control tempo and force the D to adjust. instead looks like plenty of teams the Zags have played have dictated tempo with their D when we get the ball into the post, the opposite effect of what's desired; the hi low has seemed to get better results but I don't have the data. But neither JIII nor KT, the guys Few has used down there and gone to, have been able to prove they can deliver there as a consistent threat.
And the ball gets delivered there plenty, and on time and in their spots, plenty. That has not been the issue imo, it's once the ball is in their hands down there they aren't the scoring/passing threats to run the offense the Zags are used to. Larsen has been tried and shown better imo.

Anyway, the D isn't great but evolving to learn how to play without strong rim protection. Larsen looks good when in there but he's in sparingly, and JIII and KT do spectacular things from time to time around the rim on D but as has been discussed ad nauseum, they are not true rim protectors. Josh, Silas both stay in front of their man and fight well over screens; seems to me teams go after Zach, JIII and KT off the bounce from the perimeter which is one of the weaknesses of the switching D as other teams can look to set up the matchups they want: see North Dakota for example, not the only example.

as for effort and calling players out for that, I haven't seen what you're talking about but that seems a popular position right now for many here. Have I seen nerves, inexperience, and terrible plays but also resiliency and battling and fighting back...yes.

sorry, but the up and down play is exactly what I expected after losing so much from last year and having all these new faces have to be key contributors and, mostly, the huge changes inside leading to fundamental changes in the O and D this team hasn't seen in many years.

I think the process is fine if Larsen can play significant minutes in the big games allowing the front line to all play the positions they excel at so opposing defenses can't focus so hard on stopping Josh

cggonzaga
12-27-2017, 06:28 PM
800 miles away as the crow flies Reborn. He really knows little. Just a talker.
Not worth your time.

:roll: boy if that isn’t calling the kettle black! I’ll go with somebody that actually knows something on this matter rather than somebody that kisses the players backsides in person but then comes here and rips them.

Didn’t understand your “chemistry” complaint earlier reborn. Thought you were out of bounds there since it was purely conjecture and there hasn’t been rumors or anything to back it up in the least. Not feeling well lately? Taking jazz and abe grumpy old man classes on the side? You used to be positive. You have every right to your opinions but they’re just coming across angry lately.

Reborn
12-27-2017, 07:04 PM
800 miles away as the crow flies Reborn. He really knows little. Just a talker.
Not worth your time.

thanks

MontanaCoyote
12-27-2017, 07:13 PM
No what I said was "I don't know" about the youth factor. 1st line, 1st para. The second reference is about careless defense. It seem that you're not seeing that we look awful even when when we win games. The last few were quite telling. If you only care about victories, you're in good shape with your statements above. I don't and here's why: the quality of play sucks now and if not improved, we'll be lucky to get into the tournament and if we do, we'll be gone in the first weekend like most pretenders. Do you not think people across the country are ignoring our play? This is not how the Zags continue their legend.

SO yes, I'm standing by what I wrote. Things need to be changed.......for the better. The easiest thing to change ( since the offensive is much harder to alter given our situation) is the defense. We need to start playing hard defense. And why not? We've got big kids, we've got superior athletes with good foot speed and lateral movement. So where are we lacking? Is it coaching? I doubt it even though it's obvious nobody's let the kids know they play D or they don't play. Alternatively, is it the players' will to get in the trenches and actually focus on D? One of the two....no other choices. I'm thinking it's both. A joint effort might help....i. e. coaches enforce and the kids comply. Either of those is ignored and we're in for a long season.

We've got 4 kids Josh, Silas, Tillie and J3 who have lots of experience. True, we' had different leaders in the past. Each kid unto himself needs to know it's on them. Coaches need to let em know that too. Of course, a non invite or a quick out isn't the worst thing to ever happen to us. I'd at least like our 20 season consecutive invites continue......\

So let face some things. Josh is Josh and that ok for most. What's chewable is the defense. To that end, I'd get Larsen (uninjured version) in the middle and get him to do what he does ie block shots, clog up the middle to stop unhindered drives and put some points up. It's worked in the past and it should work again. Right now that key is wide open to everyone.
And once again, I'm not arguing with anyone. It's just how I see it.

Last full paragraph is key, along with floor disipline....playing under control.

Reborn
12-27-2017, 07:21 PM
:roll: boy if that isn’t calling the kettle black! I’ll go with somebody that actually knows something on this matter rather than somebody that kisses the players backsides in person but then comes here and rips them.

Didn’t understand your “chemistry” complaint earlier reborn. Thought you were out of bounds there since it was purely conjecture and there hasn’t been rumors or anything to back it up in the least. Not feeling well lately? Taking jazz and abe grumpy old man classes on the side? You used to be positive. You have every right to your opinions but they’re just coming across angry lately.

I have been on this forum for a long time, and believe me I have not always been positive. Mostly though, I have been positive about the teams. I am still positive, believe it or not. But mostly, I try to be honest with what I see, and I do see chemistry problems. BIG TIME. Chemistry isn't all about how players feel about others. It can be that. But it is mostly how I group of players play together on the court, and these guys really do not have fluidity. They are not fluid. When they pass the ball They often have no idea where the guy whom they are passing to is going. No idea. How can you or anyone watch this mess and see positive chemistry. Did you see last years team? That was team chemistry. And it began with Karnowski and NWG. Last year we had leaders.

I do believe the Zags will turn it around. But in the meantime I am not going to pretend that I see something that I don't. That's being FAKE. I see positives, and if you read the posts I've typed you'll see I think Norvell is playing really well, and I think Larsen is playing great. This team may be more injured than I have been aware of. If that's the excuse, then I understand that. There just aren't the players to put the starters on the bench. Few did that for one game and it was definitely the best game Tillie played, and JW3 quite well with 15 and 15. But obviously, he didn't leave them there long enough because in the very next game they go right back to their old ways. I have seen a change in JW3 and I believe we will begin to see the player we hoped to see now. I think he's getting it. On the other hand I see no change taking place in Tillie, Perkins and Melson. If that's being criticle, I accept it. I hope they will follow JW3 and begin to show leadership and class.

MileHigh
12-27-2017, 07:54 PM
I'm curious. Honestly. What do you see? Have you been watching how players screen for each other? Or have you seen how they help out on defense? Explain this "close nit" group to me, especially as they are playing on the court?

It is based on spending a good bit of time over the last four years with the players (and their parents) off the court and away from the coaches. Talking with the players individually and when they are in a group you can see how close they are. To a man, each says they love their teammates and play for their teamates. Josh is a real honest kid and when he tells me this is the closest team he has played on at Gonzaga I believe him.
In terms of how their closeness manifests itself on the court, I see a bunch of kids trying to figure out their exact roles, but I don’t see a chemistry issue.

MDABE80
12-27-2017, 07:57 PM
Not to worry Reborn. FAQ is just another who thinks everything is just dandy.
It isn't but when a guy chirps incessantly. Attributes things with no basis. It's like watching the CNN basketball variant.
I'm waiting for St Mary's. I hope we win the rest of the games. Consistency is the mark of a champion ...not to be forgotten but we'll see how it goes.

MileHigh
12-27-2017, 08:02 PM
800 miles away as the crow flies Reborn. He really knows little. Just a talker.
Not worth your time.

Haha....yep, 800 miles away and I promise I know exponentially more about what is going on with the team than you do. Between regular convos with players, their parents, and Gonzaga coaching staff we are pretty plugged in here in the Mile High City..lol

Reborn
12-27-2017, 08:27 PM
It is based on spending a good bit of time over the last four years with the players (and their parents) off the court and away from the coaches. Talking with the players individually and when they are in a group you can see how close they are. To a man, each says they love their teammates and play for their teamates. Josh is a real honest kid and when he tells me this is the closest team he has played on at Gonzaga I believe him.
In terms of how their closeness manifests itself on the court, I see a bunch of kids trying to figure out their exact roles, but I don’t see a chemistry issue.

Thanks. I appreciate your point of view, and I really don't know them personally as you do. I hope so much that you are right.

cggonzaga
12-27-2017, 08:32 PM
I'm curious. Honestly. What do you see? Have you been watching how players screen for each other? Or have you seen how they help out on defense? Explain this "close nit" group to me, especially as they are playing on the court?

I see guys playing hard and for one another. I see guys being supportive. I don’t see fighting or bickering. I see a team averaging over 90ppg which doesn’t happen based off talent alone. A team shooting 51% good for top 20 in the country which doesn’t happen if they’re not getting open looks. A team averaging over 17apg good for top 40 in the country. And while the defense hasn’t been as good as last year they’re still holding teams to 41% a game which is still top 100. I think you’re overreacting to a couple poor games versus the season’s work.

MDABE80
12-27-2017, 08:37 PM
Try to separate the offense from the defense cqq. Knowledgeable do. Ones good if I look at points
Scored. The other side sucks. Defense wins championships. It's the
Mainstay of basketball.

bballbeachbum
12-27-2017, 08:47 PM
Haha....yep, 800 miles away and I promise I know exponentially more about what is going on with the team than you do. Between regular convos with players, their parents, and Gonzaga coaching staff we are pretty plugged in here in the Mile High City..lol

you're arguing with someone who claimed Josh wasn't even playing the point a few games ago in a game in which he played it well...the CNN basketball variant at work ;)

thanks for sharing your insights with us

2wiceright
12-27-2017, 09:17 PM
Nice post, Abe. Very well put.
+1 Spot on Abe

cggonzaga
12-27-2017, 09:34 PM
Try to separate the offense from the defense cqq. Knowledgeable do. Ones good if I look at points
Scored. The other side sucks. Defense wins championships. It's the
Mainstay of basketball.

The defense doesn’t suck. The numbers back that up. I said it hasn’t been great but it certainly hasn’t been bad. “Knowledgeable” people recognize that. I certainly listen to “knowledgeable” basketball people but I’m afraid I don’t put you in that category.

MDABE80
12-27-2017, 10:03 PM
How about ESPN? lolol
Points Per Game

90.2

8th


Rebounds Per Game

40.8

Tied-23rd


Assists Per Game

17.2

Tied-38th


Points Allowed<-----------

74.7

233rd

cggonzaga
12-27-2017, 10:37 PM
If ppg is what you value then you’ve made your point. Again, I’ll look at shooting percentage against which I believe is a truer indicator for defense. When a team like this one runs more fast break and shoots quicker in the play clock, there will be more offensive possessions for the other team. Thus more points scored.

Really this year’s team is just worse against the 3. 2pt fg % is still solid and top 50 in the country.

MDABE80
12-27-2017, 11:21 PM
Yes right. I guess we should follow the composite variables instead of the bottom line that determines a win or a loss. And there in lies one of the problems with the offense which you've detailed in the above post.....shoot quick in an uptempo, run and gun offense with lots of alley oops, 3 pt shots and so on (and plenty of Turnovers too).......kills the defense but the offense makes points.

And my view, although unshared is mostly the opposite. Like last year when we went to the Championship game. Slower , deliberate thoughtful analytical offense and the no 1 defense in the country. Mimics the kid who directs the game. This is key and what I've been thinking this season. To me the differences in how this GU team approaches/plays a game is majorly different.

cggonzaga
12-28-2017, 12:02 AM
I guess we should follow the composite variables instead of the bottom line that determines a win or a loss

This makes no sense. It’s not like we’re 6-6. We’re 10-3 after playing a very solid ooc. As others have said, a free throw and a C game from 12-1 and our only loss to the number 1 team in the country. Just because we’re not winning games the way you want us to doesn’t mean this team isn’t good. There is more than one way to skin a cat. For instance, last year’s national champion shot 46%, scored 84ppg and gave up 41%, at 71ppg. UNC runs the fast break as well as anybody in the country.

webspinnre
12-28-2017, 12:02 AM
Arguing with someone who believes pace and efficiency is irrelevant in evaluating defenses is a waste of time. They may not be great defensively, but they're not terrible.

WallaWallaZag
12-28-2017, 12:30 AM
And my view, although unshared is mostly the opposite. Like last year when we went to the Championship game. Slower , deliberate thoughtful analytical offense and the no 1 defense in the country. Mimics the kid who directs the game. This is key and what I've been thinking this season. To me the differences in how this GU team approaches/plays a game is majorly different.

different experience/talent level...stop comparing this year's team to last year and you'll be a much happier person...compare to the year before if you really must compare

MDABE80
12-28-2017, 12:34 AM
Arguing with someone who believes pace and efficiency is irrelevant in evaluating defenses is a waste of time. They may not be great defensively, but they're not terrible.
That's not the case though Web. Read again. We're not really too different on how pace and
Efficiency
Matter. They do! Who said they didn't. Not me. Read what you want
And think what you want. They matter plenty. So what's the rub?

WallaWallaZag
12-28-2017, 01:10 AM
Arguing with someone who believes pace and efficiency is irrelevant in evaluating defenses is a waste of time. They may not be great defensively, but they're not terrible.

not terrible, but not good enough if your goal is to go beyond the 2nd round in march...

gonzagafan62
12-28-2017, 07:06 AM
I don't think most quarrel as much about the record as the way the team has performed. Very Un-Zag like. Sloppy, lack of hustle, that sort of stuff.

Jazz! 100% correct my friend.

cggonzaga
12-28-2017, 11:25 AM
Jazz! 100% correct my friend.

I’m asking this question seriously. If some of you hate watching this team so much, why watch?

hooter73
12-28-2017, 12:23 PM
Iím asking this question seriously. If some of you hate watching this team so much, why watch?
^^^:000tens:


The stats say they are only a little behind last years team but the eye test does not agree.

#freeWade

raise the zag
12-28-2017, 12:37 PM
^^^:000tens:


The stats say they are only a little behind last years team but the eye test does not agree.

#freeWade

I keep reading how close statistically we are, yet what about defense?

We are literally allowing 13....yes, 13 more points per game to our opponents.

Not to mention, allowing opponents to shoot nearly 10% better from 3pt line.

That is significant, along with statistical significant.

We also ranked around 50th in TO's per game last yr, while we are currently ranked 200th. While we do avg 2 more assists per game, it is offset by the extra 3 TO's, which further negates it...

Hoopaholic
12-28-2017, 01:28 PM
I keep reading how close statistically we are, yet what about defense?

We are literally allowing 13....yes, 13 more points per game to our opponents.

Not to mention, allowing opponents to shoot nearly 10% better from 3pt line.

That is significant, along with statistical significant.

We also ranked around 50th in TO's per game last yr, while we are currently ranked 200th. While we do avg 2 more assists per game, it is offset by the extra 3 TO's, which further negates it...

Missing the big paint protectors impacts and necessitates a philosophy change......

3 to are tied up with j3, rui and tille who all have doubled their average as they learn their new roles...suspect we see this dropping in the last 2/3 of the season


3 extra to are tied up with Williams, rui and Tille

Suspect these issues get ironed out

But you indicated earlier you have given up on them and don't even bother turning them on so you probably going miss out on the maturation process of the 3 new starters and 5 new underclass men

JPtheBeasta
12-28-2017, 01:50 PM
This thread has jumped the shark.

TexasZagFan
12-28-2017, 01:58 PM
This thread has jumped the shark.

I thought the shark jumped the thread.

cggonzaga
12-28-2017, 02:16 PM
I keep reading how close statistically we are, yet what about defense?

We are literally allowing 13....yes, 13 more points per game to our opponents.

Not to mention, allowing opponents to shoot nearly 10% better from 3pt line.

That is significant, along with statistical significant.

We also ranked around 50th in TO's per game last yr, while we are currently ranked 200th. While we do avg 2 more assists per game, it is offset by the extra 3 TO's, which further negates it...

Herein lays the problem, some of you want to compare this year’s team to last. Last year’s team was the most special team in GU history. Nobody is saying this year’s squad is as good as last’s, certainly not defensively. What you’re missing though is this team is still very good. Probably top 7 in terms of GU basketball. This team has some things to clean up which GU teams under Mark Few tend to do as the season progresses.

I’d also argue this season’s ooc is significantly more difficult than last’s. Add in new young players and new roles, as hoop has stated on multiple occasions, and maybe you could recognize some early season difficulties.

My problem is more with some in the fan base that can’t stand watching this team for some reason. I mean really? Some want to complain about style of play? I’m proud of Few for not forcing this team to play his preferred style of ball and recognizing this team would not be successful doing so. That’s the sign of a great coach imo.

MDABE80
12-28-2017, 02:33 PM
Doesn't change the performance data on defense. Argue numbers not players. This group has terrific talent. It's just not playing defense.

JPtheBeasta
12-28-2017, 03:04 PM
I thought the shark jumped the thread.

And the dish ran away with the spoon.

JPtheBeasta
12-28-2017, 03:13 PM
Mark Few said on his show that they needed to bring their B+ game to beat SDSU, but displayed the textbook way to not play on the road. I chuckled at both of those things. Players with a lot of minutes made bad plays. He made the point that SDSU only scored one basket in the last 4 minutes- but dumb fouls (my paraphrase) kept putting them to the line. The defensive stats probably actually looked good in crunch time, but it wasn’t winning basketball.

This team is good enough to beat many teams with sub-par performances, but they 4-putted this last one.