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sittingon50
12-24-2017, 06:25 PM
http://en.bloguru.com/GloryHounds/313978/in-the-wcc-sameold-sameold

ZagsGoZags
12-24-2017, 07:13 PM
The bottom half of the WCC takes the earnings from GU and SMC and plows it into ping pong, lacrosse, soccer, etc. BYU, SMC and GU wish they would develop their BB programs with the cash handouts from SMC and GU.
But what is the tradition, or by-laws, or unofficial norm on this? Is there a general expectation that they should spend that money on BB? Is an unofficial norm to do so practiced in other conferences? Is there any kind of ethical standard on this, or are we just expressing what we think they should do with their legitimately received money. Do they ever make the argument that these stipends would not be enough to raise their basketball to the top 3 or 4, therefore they should spend it on water polo or synchronized diving because that is enough to put one of those programs into national relevance? Just asking because I wish the WCC would move up to 7th or 8th best Conference in nation, rather than the 10-14. If even two more two more teams joined the 'big three' that would be five teams ranked in the top 75, which would reduce GU's restless desire to get out of this situation. Better wins, even better losses, would result for us. Even some of the Power 5 conferences have a few bottom feeders, just not as many as we have.
If we urged the WCC to direct a larger share to the teams that earn the money in the Dance, would this be unusual, or common across the country in other leagues?
On what grounds, except self serving opinion, do we have to ask them to channel that money in to BB?

Sound Voltex
12-24-2017, 11:31 PM
PilotNation post that sums up my feelings about Portland's non-conference season. (http://www.pilotnation.net/t4740p150-2017-2018-non-conference-schedule#70856)


Looking back at the preseason results, a 6-7 is what should have occurred. There are no losses to bad teams. PSU is 10-3, BSU is 10-2. DePaul is 7-5 with two PK80 losses. UNC and OU are top 20 in KenPom. Fullerton is 7-4; their only losses are to SMC and three power 5s. Seattle is 8-6, and four of their losses are to SMC and three Pac-12s.

The current 8 man rotation is 2 seniors and 6 players in their first year of getting playing time. Hard to see how anyone could expect better than 6-7. I guess if you are going to schedule that tough, it's better to have a young team that can learn from each loss, than an experienced team that might get dispirited.

According to KenPom, UP is the lowest rated WCC team at 302. Not sure how SCU (3-9) is at 259; they lost to SJS, and to Idaho, Alaska-Anchorage and Sam Houston St. in a holiday tournament. PU is also 3-9 and rated 298, just above us. UOP is 5-8 and rated 218. LMU is 5-8 and rated 205. None of those schools have great wins, and LMU and SCU also lost to PSU. We saw how close the Pilots came to beating PSU. I think this team will compete well in the bottom 5 of the conference. Probably not good enough to avoid the dreaded play-in group of four, but maybe.

Honestly I think the "lower-half WCC not caring about BB and dragging the top 3 down" argument should be held off for another season or two. Or at least given a pass for some teams. Out of the "bottom five", 3 teams (Pacific, Portland, Santa Clara) had new coaches last year and 2 teams (Pacific, Portland) had really big roster blowups in the offseason. Can't speak for all bottom-half teams, but I feel Portland is making the effort to challenge the top half. But with the large amount of roster turnover/newbies, a big turnaround is unlikely this season bar a miracle in the WCC tournament, but understandable.

I think Santa Clara is destined more for the cellar than Portland is given the amount of bad losses and the general criticisms of the team on their fan board (http://wakeupswig.com/?thread=game-12-san-jose-st) appear to be a lot worse for a team that has more upperclassmen/experience.

Onward to conference play!

jazzdelmar
12-25-2017, 05:00 AM
They're all stealing the money........It's just that no top 3 college prexy, most of all GU's, has the ballz to say so.

ehk 21
12-25-2017, 06:59 AM
They're all stealing the money........It's just that no top 3 college prexy, most of all GU's, has the ballz to say so.

OK, I am a University of Portland alum, who follows this board because I am originally from Spokane, have family members who went to GU, taught at G-Prep years ago, and generally root for the Bulldogs when they aren't playing the Pilots.

Please stop with this "stealing the money" business. Portland does have a pathetic basketball program. But, hard as it is to believe, people at UP do want to improve. That's why we fired Eric Reveno--a fine person who worked his tail off to build a program and did everything right except win; we are trying. I think Gonzaga fans forget what an anomaly their program is. There really are very few mid-majors, if any, who have done anything remotely similar to what you have done. Little schools like Portland simply don't have the money, even with the money we get from your basketball success, to build a basketball program. It's incredibly hard. Even worse, little schools like Portland are finding it extremely difficult to even maintain their success in sports like women's soccer where UP won national titles in 2002 and 2005, but now even women's soccer is floundering at UP. Again, it's not a lack of trying...it's the reality of keeping up with much larger programs with infinitely more resources.

I'm happy that the miracle of Gonzaga basketball continues. Look around you, though--you are the fortunate exception. The stars aligned perfectly (I can remember the days when UP would beat Gonzaga more often than not) and you have reaped the benefits. I really shudder to think what would happen to this fan base and the gnashing of teeth that would occur if your program ever returns to its earlier state. P.S. If the WCC were so horrific, then there's no way you could have made it to the Title Game.
P.P.S. A lot of the people on this board dislike BYU fans and their attitudes, but some of you are starting to sound like identical twins to those folks.

ZionZag
12-25-2017, 07:18 AM
PilotNation post that sums up my feelings about Portland's non-conference season. (http://www.pilotnation.net/t4740p150-2017-2018-non-conference-schedule#70856)



Honestly I think the "lower-half WCC not caring about BB and dragging the top 3 down" argument should be held off for another season or two. Or at least given a pass for some teams. Out of the "bottom five", 3 teams (Pacific, Portland, Santa Clara) had new coaches last year and 2 teams (Pacific, Portland) had really big roster blowups in the offseason. Can't speak for all bottom-half teams, but I feel Portland is making the effort to challenge the top half. But with the large amount of roster turnover/newbies, a big turnaround is unlikely this season bar a miracle in the WCC tournament, but understandable.

I think Santa Clara is destined more for the cellar than Portland is given the amount of bad losses and the general criticisms of the team on their fan board (http://wakeupswig.com/?thread=game-12-san-jose-st) appear to be a lot worse for a team that has more upperclassmen/experience.

Onward to conference play!

You have a good point Volt but............I think you could just change the names of the schools and reprint your comments each Christmas for the past 20 years.....

ZionZag
12-25-2017, 07:28 AM
Well written 21................I've watched BB fans for over 50 years "but some of you are starting to sound like identical twins to those folks" is a real stretch!

gueastcoast
12-25-2017, 07:51 AM
I think the lion's share of the derision for the pathetic efforts of the "bottom half" of the conference should be reserved for LMU and Pepperdine. Given the basketball history, location, nascent alumni support and financial resources of these schools, it's inexcusable that they've been cellar dwellars (for the most part) for so long.

jazzdelmar
12-25-2017, 08:31 AM
I think the lion's share of the derision for the pathetic efforts of the "bottom half" of the conference should be reserved for LMU and Pepperdine. Given the basketball history, location, nascent alumni support and financial resources of these schools, it's inexcusable that they've been cellar dwellars (for the most part) for so long.

East.....I don't see how you can make the cut off w only those 2 welfare-dependent programs.....Pacific? .. Still, I agree LMU and Pep are particularly egregious as they are relatively wealthy schools in high end, media laden communities ... as we saw back in the days of Westhead a good program sells. Recall when Pep almost beat a DD team at the Slim Gym? Sigh...

Bing
12-25-2017, 08:52 AM
OK, I am a University of Portland alum, who follows this board because I am originally from Spokane, have family members who went to GU, taught at G-Prep years ago, and generally root for the Bulldogs when they aren't playing the Pilots.

Please stop with this "stealing the money" business. Portland does have a pathetic basketball program. But, hard as it is to believe, people at UP do want to improve. That's why we fired Eric Reveno--a fine person who worked his tail off to build a program and did everything right except win; we are trying. I think Gonzaga fans forget what an anomaly their program is. There really are very few mid-majors, if any, who have done anything remotely similar to what you have done. Little schools like Portland simply don't have the money, even with the money we get from your basketball success, to build a basketball program. It's incredibly hard. Even worse, little schools like Portland are finding it extremely difficult to even maintain their success in sports like women's soccer where UP won national titles in 2002 and 2005, but now even women's soccer is floundering at UP. Again, it's not a lack of trying...it's the reality of keeping up with much larger programs with infinitely more resources.

I'm happy that the miracle of Gonzaga basketball continues. Look around you, though--you are the fortunate exception. The stars aligned perfectly (I can remember the days when UP would beat Gonzaga more often than not) and you have reaped the benefits. I really shudder to think what would happen to this fan base and the gnashing of teeth that would occur if your program ever returns to its earlier state. P.S. If the WCC were so horrific, then there's no way you could have made it to the Title Game.
P.P.S. A lot of the people on this board dislike BYU fans and their attitudes, but some of you are starting to sound like identical twins to those folks.

It's MUCH more than the split of the money. It's the shackles that have been put on Gonzaga and the change that limits Gonzaga's ability to play decent OOC opponents, .particularly late in the season. That is what I find galling. Those shackles are helped by your man Poorman and 5 others, who consistently vote as a block against anything and everything that helps the top of the conference. Only GU, BYU, SMC and USF (and Lynn) understand how an unbalanced schedule could free up a weekend (for everybody) late in the season. I don't blame your President (or the others) for wanting to keep as much $$$ in their coffers as Gonzaga and the other big 2 earn. But the way your President and the others who have the votes continue to do their business WILL lead to Gonzaga's exit as soon as a suitable invitation comes Gonzaga's way. And there are key leaders/ADs in a couple of conferences (Big East/American Athletic to name 2) who WANT Gonzaga. It's just a matter of time.

gueastcoast
12-25-2017, 09:05 AM
Jazz, exactly...it's not "just" them, but particularly them. Sigh indeed...

bartruff1
12-25-2017, 09:32 AM
OK, I am a University of Portland alum, who follows this board because I am originally from Spokane, have family members who went to GU, taught at G-Prep years ago, and generally root for the Bulldogs when they aren't playing the Pilots.

Please stop with this "stealing the money" business. Portland does have a pathetic basketball program. But, hard as it is to believe, people at UP do want to improve. That's why we fired Eric Reveno--a fine person who worked his tail off to build a program and did everything right except win; we are trying. I think Gonzaga fans forget what an anomaly their program is. There really are very few mid-majors, if any, who have done anything remotely similar to what you have done. Little schools like Portland simply don't have the money, even with the money we get from your basketball success, to build a basketball program. It's incredibly hard. Even worse, little schools like Portland are finding it extremely difficult to even maintain their success in sports like women's soccer where UP won national titles in 2002 and 2005, but now even women's soccer is floundering at UP. Again, it's not a lack of trying...it's the reality of keeping up with much larger programs with infinitely more resources.

I'm happy that the miracle of Gonzaga basketball continues. Look around you, though--you are the fortunate exception. The stars aligned perfectly (I can remember the days when UP would beat Gonzaga more often than not) and you have reaped the benefits. I really shudder to think what would happen to this fan base and the gnashing of teeth that would occur if your program ever returns to its earlier state. P.S. If the WCC were so horrific, then there's no way you could have made it to the Title Game.
P.P.S. A lot of the people on this board dislike BYU fans and their attitudes, but some of you are starting to sound like identical twins to those folks.

I could not agree more....except that I hope the non forum fans have a more independent and positive view ...fact is I know dozens if not hundreds of non posting fans and they never say anything about the WCC....most of the posting in here is done by a few dozen fans that share some articles of faith...

jazzdelmar
12-25-2017, 10:12 AM
OK, I am a University of Portland alum, who follows this board because I am originally from Spokane, have family members who went to GU, taught at G-Prep years ago, and generally root for the Bulldogs when they aren't playing the Pilots.

Please stop with this "stealing the money" business. Portland does have a pathetic basketball program. But, hard as it is to believe, people at UP do want to improve. That's why we fired Eric Reveno--a fine person who worked his tail off to build a program and did everything right except win; we are trying. I think Gonzaga fans forget what an anomaly their program is. There really are very few mid-majors, if any, who have done anything remotely similar to what you have done. Little schools like Portland simply don't have the money, even with the money we get from your basketball success, to build a basketball program. It's incredibly hard. Even worse, little schools like Portland are finding it extremely difficult to even maintain their success in sports like women's soccer where UP won national titles in 2002 and 2005, but now even women's soccer is floundering at UP. Again, it's not a lack of trying...it's the reality of keeping up with much larger programs with infinitely more resources.

I'm happy that the miracle of Gonzaga basketball continues. Look around you, though--you are the fortunate exception. The stars aligned perfectly (I can remember the days when UP would beat Gonzaga more often than not) and you have reaped the benefits. I really shudder to think what would happen to this fan base and the gnashing of teeth that would occur if your program ever returns to its earlier state. P.S. If the WCC were so horrific, then there's no way you could have made it to the Title Game.
P.P.S. A lot of the people on this board dislike BYU fans and their attitudes, but some of you are starting to sound like identical twins to those folks.

Simply put, it's not how dreadful the little sister programs are -- yours included -- it's that GU's program is so damn good. Postulating that we would feel very differently if the Zags were to slip, that won't win you any fans on this board -- save maybe for Bart. Sorry, the end of welfare payments is nigh.

Ekrub
12-25-2017, 12:25 PM
How much does the WCC get from the ESPN TV deal? Tried looking it up on Google but the press release didn't mention how much or how it was split up.

Bing
12-25-2017, 12:40 PM
How much does the WCC get from the ESPN TV deal? Tried looking it up on Google but the press release didn't mention how much or how it was split up.

The amount is negligible. Gonzaga gets far more from The Mark Few Show, which fortunately they don't have to share.

willandi
12-25-2017, 12:42 PM
How much does the WCC get from the ESPN TV deal? Tried looking it up on Google but the press release didn't mention how much or how it was split up.

http://guboards.spokesmanreview.com/showthread.php?60099-Big-payday-for-the-WCC&highlight=payout

Bing
12-25-2017, 12:52 PM
http://guboards.spokesmanreview.com/showthread.php?60099-Big-payday-for-the-WCC&highlight=payout

Interesting link but has nothing to do with the question at hand.


Ekrub is online now
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How much does the WCC get from the ESPN TV deal? Tried looking it up on Google but the press release didn't mention how much or how it was split up.

bartruff1
12-25-2017, 01:01 PM
The amount is negligible. Gonzaga gets far more from The Mark Few Show, which fortunately they don't have to share.

They should ......he looks like he enjoys it as much as a colonoscopy....

sittingon50
12-25-2017, 01:13 PM
PilotNation post that sums up my feelings about Portland's non-conference season. (http://www.pilotnation.net/t4740p150-2017-2018-non-conference-schedule#70856)



Honestly I think the "lower-half WCC not caring about BB and dragging the top 3 down" argument should be held off for another season or two. Or at least given a pass for some teams. Out of the "bottom five", 3 teams (Pacific, Portland, Santa Clara) had new coaches last year and 2 teams (Pacific, Portland) had really big roster blowups in the offseason. Can't speak for all bottom-half teams, but I feel Portland is making the effort to challenge the top half. But with the large amount of roster turnover/newbies, a big turnaround is unlikely this season bar a miracle in the WCC tournament, but understandable.

I think Santa Clara is destined more for the cellar than Portland is given the amount of bad losses and the general criticisms of the team on their fan board (http://wakeupswig.com/?thread=game-12-san-jose-st) appear to be a lot worse for a team that has more upperclassmen/experience.

Onward to conference play!

With you Voltex on giving the 4 new Coaches just a bit longer.

Sound Voltex
12-25-2017, 01:19 PM
You have a good point Volt but............I think you could just change the names of the schools and reprint your comments each Christmas for the past 20 years.....

Disclaimer: I only started following WCC BB seriously starting from last year, so I have no real knowledge on trends from the past 20 years.

I think it's important to look at context before just throwing every lower-half team into the "they didn't listen to Few's gauntlet" pit as what I feel like the article implies. A few days after the aforementioned statement, there was the coaching change carousel with Portland, Santa Clara, San Fransisco and Pacific. So I mean at least there was a response from a good chunk of the lower-half. If we were still here with the same coaches from 2 years ago then there could be a valid point.

At this point, it's still rebuilding season for the new coaches, most with little to no WCC/DI coaching experience. Big changes that quick given roster turnover are unlikely. Okay, USF's Smith has a lot of previous WCC and rebuilding experience so I feel his quick rebuilding/turnaround is understandable. Whether or not that will turn into stable long-term results instead of brief spurts? Maybe the stars will align for once, but who knows. USD appears to be on the right track in Lamont's third year after finishing near the bottom the previous two. Bennett followed a similar trend (bad to better than last year to top 3) in his first three years at SMC.

seacatfan
12-25-2017, 02:13 PM
And there are key leaders/ADs in a couple of conferences (Big East/American Athletic to name 2) who WANT Gonzaga. It's just a matter of time.

The AAC is a sinking ship. EVERYBODY wants out of that conference, any of them will jump at the first opportunity. Zags would not be doing themselves any favors moving there. I would be surprised if it was even being considered. UConn is pretty much dying since they got stuck there. If a conference can kill a program with as much history as UConn...

willandi
12-25-2017, 03:01 PM
Interesting link but has nothing to do with the question at hand.

You are right. Sorry...a brain fart!

Bing
12-25-2017, 05:29 PM
The AAC is a sinking ship. EVERYBODY wants out of that conference, any of them will jump at the first opportunity. Zags would not be doing themselves any favors moving there. I would be surprised if it was even being considered. UConn is pretty much dying since they got stuck there. If a conference can kill a program with as much history as UConn...

The AAC is ranked #7, right behind the Pac 12 at #6. The WCC is currently ranked #13.

As a conference, the AAC is 59 games over .500 and the WCC is 9 games over .500.

The AAC has been made stronger this year with the invitation and inclusion of Wichita State.

Can you please point out anything that has made the WCC stronger?

75Zag
12-25-2017, 05:46 PM
Some years ago I was involved in a business where every owner got an identical share of the profits regardless of effort, contributions, etc., etc., etc. I like to think of myself as a progressive liberal humanitarian type person, but after a while our business was a complete disaster because 15% of the owners contributed 90% of the profits, but each and every owner demanded his or her equal share at the end of the year. The WCC seems like a similar enterprise. GU makes all the money (with an occasional assist from St. Marys or one other team) but each and every one of the WCC members has their hand out when it comes time to equally divide the profits.
In my case, our business model lasted for about 5 years before those who made most of the profits demanded more than an equal share of the profits and everything blew up. So far the WCC seems to be holding together and I ask myself why, and the only answer I can come up with is that GU has no other options so they are captive to the financial deal within the WCC. It will be interesting to see how much longer it can last, but maybe it will last forever. Who knows.

Go Bulldogs!

seacatfan
12-26-2017, 09:15 AM
The AAC is ranked #7, right behind the Pac 12 at #6. The WCC is currently ranked #13.

As a conference, the AAC is 59 games over .500 and the WCC is 9 games over .500.

The AAC has been made stronger this year with the invitation and inclusion of Wichita State.

Can you please point out anything that has made the WCC stronger?

Adding Pacific didn't impress you? (sarcasm alert) The WCC not improving as a conference has nothing to do with the possibility of the AAC imploding at any moment.

jazzdelmar
12-26-2017, 09:22 AM
Adding Pacific didn't impress you? (sarcasm alert) The WCC not improving as a conference has nothing to do with the possibility of the AAC imploding at any moment.

The trend line points to 5 major conferences soon and a whole bunch of also rans....maybe 5 years from now, maybe longer, but that seems inevitable esp given the programming $$$ retrenchment....Zags better hustle now, get with a brand name....

Bing
12-26-2017, 06:13 PM
Adding Pacific didn't impress you? (sarcasm alert) The WCC not improving as a conference has nothing to do with the possibility of the AAC imploding at any moment.

I understand UConn not being pleased with where they landed. They are outside of the Big East and outside of the ACC and their longtime conference rivals are all playing in better leagues. I get that. As for the others, I'm wondering why a google of the terms "American Athletic Conference imploding" has zero results. Wouldn't there be at least one article about this? And why would Wichita State want to join an imploding conference? Seems like a pretty small group (you) that knows that there's a possibility of the American Athletic Conference imploding "at any moment".

ZagsGoZags
12-26-2017, 07:00 PM
I was hoping somebody would have some information on my question.
Is there a general expectation in D1 basketball that teams at the bottom of their conferences who receive big payoffs most years from high ranking teams going deep in the Dance spend those proceeds on the same sport, i.e. on their basketball program? Or in football, baseball, etc.? Are we following tradition in asking Loyola, Santa Clara, etc., or is Few breaking tradition in asking them to devote a large portion of those funds to their BB program? Is Few alone in this request, or do a lot of other top coaches make the same request in their conferences?

Zagdawg
12-28-2017, 02:47 PM
https://i.imgur.com/IeDhv7Y.png

seacatfan
12-28-2017, 03:57 PM
I understand UConn not being pleased with where they landed. They are outside of the Big East and outside of the ACC and their longtime conference rivals are all playing in better leagues. I get that. As for the others, I'm wondering why a google of the terms "American Athletic Conference imploding" has zero results. Wouldn't there be at least one article about this? And why would Wichita State want to join an imploding conference? Seems like a pretty small group (you) that knows that there's a possibility of the American Athletic Conference imploding "at any moment".

When the Big 12 was looking at adding 2 or even 4 new members (yeah, they were just joking, they weren't really interested in expanding), most of the AAC was on the potential list. ANY school that takes football seriously will leave the AAC in a moment if they get the chance to move to a Power 5 conference. Off the top of my head I'd say UConn, Memphis, Cincinnati, Houston, South Florida and Central Florida would all be more than happy to be elsewhere. Wichita St. must have felt like it was a gamble worth taking when they moved. They also don't play D1 football though. They probably really wish they could follow Creighton to the new Big East.

But you could be right. I might be the only person in the world to hold this viewpoint.