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AzZag
12-21-2017, 10:19 PM
Perkins was awful.
Plays no defense.
Gets beat off the dribble causing others to leave their man
and we give up an uncontested 3.

Turnover machine. Dribble Dribble Dribble and goes nowhere.
Shooting terrible. Missing free throws. Fouling at bad times.

I was trying to figure which was worse
1. The officiating
2. Perkins game tonight.

Sadly I have to go with Perkins.
Ditch the And 1 mix tape moves and play the game right.

That team was not better than us. Not even close.

Kell chewed up Perkins all night long.

Let J Will run the point and bench Perkins

Zags11
12-21-2017, 10:21 PM
Perkins was awful.
Plays no defense.
Gets beat off the dribble causing others to leave their man
and we give up an uncontested 3.

Turnover machine. Dribble Dribble Dribble and goes nowhere.
Shooting terrible. Missing free throws. Fouling at bad times.

I was trying to figure which was worse
1. The officiating
2. Perkins game tonight.

Sadly I have to go with Perkins.
Ditch the And 1 mix tape moves and play the game right.

That team was not better than us. Not even close.

Kell chewed up Perkins all night long.

Let J Will run the point and bench Perkins

Kick rocks

Zagricultural
12-21-2017, 10:24 PM
Pure hyperbole.

Saxon_zag
12-21-2017, 10:29 PM
Let J Will run the point and bench Perkins

um what? lol


Silly thread title but he's been pretty bad ever since the 2nd half of the Texas game where he was atrocious. His jump shot bails him out sometimes but the Point Guard skills are meh. Does anyone really trust him with the ball like you did Nigel? Half as much? Clanks 2 free throws to end the game tonight. He's in his own head bad... No killer instinct and short memory (see Norvell)

Zags11
12-21-2017, 10:34 PM
um what? lol


Silly thread title but he's been pretty bad ever since the 2nd half of the Texas game where he was atrocious. His jump shot bails him out sometimes but the Point Guard skills are meh. Does anyone really trust him with the ball like you did Nigel? Half as much? Clanks 2 free throws to end the game tonight. He's in his own head bad... No killer instinct and short memory (see Norvell)

Goss and Perkins turnovers are nearly identical. Ppg too. Do I think he is better then goss? No.

But the over exaggeration on Perkins is old.

CDC84
12-21-2017, 10:38 PM
And he has no one to back him up. I have been harping on this all season. Melson can't run the offense, and Wade is injured and has been away from organized ball for too long. So when Perkins has a game like hell, Few can't sit him for five minutes to get his head straight. He has to stick with him.

Zags11
12-21-2017, 10:41 PM
And he has no one to back him up. I have been harping on this all season. Melson can't run the offense, and Wade is injured and has been away from organized ball for too long. So when Perkins has a game like hell, Few can't sit him for five minutes to get his head straight. He has to stick with him.

We are going to live or die with him. He isn't as bad as ppl like to talk on here. However when he isn't having a good game, we can't survive without him.

Saxon_zag
12-21-2017, 10:43 PM
Goss and Perkins turnovers are nearly identical. Ppg too. Do I think he is better then goss? No.

But the over exaggeration on Perkins is old.

Come on man. He was horrible tonight. He was horrible in the Texas game and made a play that JV high school point guards know not to make at the end of a game to give Texas the shot to tie. He doesn't deserve personal attacks but people can make the observation that his play is not what you would call "heady" from a PG at all and his bad play seems to snowball.

Free Jesse Wade for 10-15 mins a game and you can even let Perkins play the off guard he seemed more comfortable at IMO.

CDC84
12-21-2017, 10:44 PM
Keep in mind his stats before this game. 2 for 1 A/T ratio. High shooting percentages from three and from the field. But I worry about him come late February. He's going to end up playing a ton of minutes.

Zags11
12-21-2017, 10:45 PM
Come on man. He was horrible tonight. He was horrible in the Texas game and made a play that JV high school point guards know not to make at the end of a game to give Texas the shot to tie. He doesn't deserve personal attacks but people can make the observation that his play is not what you would call "heady" from a PG at all and his bad play seems to snowball.

Free Jesse Wade for 10-15 mins a game and you can even let Perkins play the off guard he seemed more comfortable at IMO.


http://stats.washingtonpost.com/cbk/players.asp?id=122297

I see about 4-5 more losses and a sw16 exit if goss had this team instead of last yrs team. Some bad games. However he had the squad to back it up. Perkins doesn't.

Zags11
12-21-2017, 10:46 PM
Keep in mind his stats before this game. 2 for 1 A/T ratio. High shooting percentages from three and from the field. But I worry about him come late February. He's going to end up playing a ton of minutes.


http://stats.washingtonpost.com/cbk/players.asp?id=122297

Zags11
12-21-2017, 11:06 PM
Lose to wvu in sw16 if he Perkins.
10pts. 2-10 shooting. 5 turnovers and 2 assists.

4pts. 2-9 shooting vs Portland. 3 ass and 1 to.

9pts. 4-13 shooting vs SDSU

15pts. 5-17 shooting vs NC

9pts. 3-12 shooting vs SDSU on 2nd game of yr. 3 assists and 4 turnovers.

15pts. 3-11 shooting vs Portland at home.

20pts. 6-19 shooting vs NW.

11.7ppg on 27.4% shooting.

Team record 6-1. If you think we go 6-1 with Perkins doing that? Your high. Probably 2-5.

CDC84
12-21-2017, 11:10 PM
I don't think some folks are aware that Jesse still isn't well physically. That is part of the reason he isn't getting much run. That and the fact that he has not played much organized ball since the Civil War.

gonwick
12-21-2017, 11:25 PM
Rough stretch for zags and Josh. I can't remember fast forwarding as many games as I have in a row. Painful to watch. I think some of the frustration re Josh vs Nigel, despite some stats similar, is that it feels like Josh's errors are unforced, while Nigel's came from forcing things. Josh is good for 1 to 2 turnovers per game thst involve loose handles, needless no look passes to nowhere, silly post entry passes, etc. Nigel made some of these too, but not as many. This team is in desperate need of a point guard for back up minutes. I am worried for next year. Ayayi, wade, and the kid whose other offer was smc, and Josh as a 5th year sr. Not sure how that will go. Josh, as always, needs to make the simple plays. I'd be happy if he'd just stop dribbling off himself and looking away for EVERY pass. Seems like a nice kid, hard to watch.

zagsfanforlife
12-21-2017, 11:39 PM
I think as a whole that was one of the worst games i have ever seen since i started following in 1998. Absolutely pathetic effort against a really really bad team.

Zags11
12-21-2017, 11:55 PM
I think as a whole that was one of the worst games i have ever seen since i started following in 1998. Absolutely pathetic effort against a really really bad team.

U must drink through games. ;).

SDSU is 8-3. We lost to some eh teams over the years.

zagsfanforlife
12-22-2017, 12:00 AM
U must drink through games. ;).

SDSU is 8-3. We lost to some eh teams over the years.

You dont know hoops if you think that is a good team we just lost to. ;) Their best win was Georgia with losses to Washington State, CAL, and blown out of the water by ASU.

Zags11
12-22-2017, 12:46 AM
You dont know hoops if you think that is a good team we just lost to. ;) Their best win was Georgia with losses to Washington State, CAL, and blown out of the water by ASU.

Lol

Zags11
12-22-2017, 12:57 AM
You dont know hoops if you think that is a good team we just lost to. ;) Their best win was Georgia with losses to Washington State, CAL, and blown out of the water by ASU.

Opinions and facts. Your in the opinion group.

Gonzaga 2002-03 team lost to 11-20 Loyola. So you must be drunk through hoops. Lmao

Zag79
12-22-2017, 12:58 AM
You dont know hoops if you think that is a good team we just lost to. ;) Their best win was Georgia with losses to Washington State, CAL, and blown out of the water by ASU.

I don't know how good they'll end up being, but their RPI rank is 52nd in college basketball... The Zags have lost to far worse teams, at home let alone the road, with their guards playing horrible. Far worse than Melson and Perkins to be fair. This edition of the Zags will be a learning process, but it's going to be another special season I know that.

Zags11
12-22-2017, 01:02 AM
I think as a whole that was one of the worst games i have ever seen since i started following in 1998. Absolutely pathetic effort against a really really bad team.

Like I said 2002-03 team lost to 11-20 Loyola.
05 team lost to 17-14 SF.

Multiple double digit loss wcc teams through the years.


I'm not gonna go through every yr but we lose to way worse teams then SDSU.

Malastein
12-22-2017, 01:33 AM
And he has no one to back him up. I have been harping on this all season. Melson can't run the offense, and Wade is injured and has been away from organized ball for too long. So when Perkins has a game like hell, Few can't sit him for five minutes to get his head straight. He has to stick with him.

This! It’s why this team doesn’t really have much depth. If a second guy could come in and run the offense so that Perkins could get some mental breaks, then I could see this team as potentially making the Elite 8 with an outside shot at the final four. There’s some talent on the team, but it’s talent that isn’t ready to put in work on an every night basis. Norvell is a guy I wish could become a second distributor, but he’s got a one track mind at this point. This team isn’t that cohesive when Perkins is off. I expect at least a couple losses when it comes to league play. Kispert looked like the guy early, especially with Dickau talking about his ability to play some point. I’m almost more excited about next season as this one has developed...

Ezag
12-22-2017, 05:52 AM
Perkins has actually had been pretty consistent offensively this season thus far. Only last night and Creighton game had him scoring a low 5 points in each.

However, over the course of their Gonzaga careers, Perkins and Melson have both been mostly inconsistent on the offensive end every year. They are not the type of guards who are going to take over games at will or put teams on their backs very often. That is why having a player like Goss last year was so special. Goss could turn it on when needed and take over games. With Perk and Melson, you don't have that same confidence.

scott257
12-22-2017, 06:11 AM
Goss and Perkins turnovers are nearly identical. Ppg too. Do I think he is better then goss? No.

But the over exaggeration on Perkins is old.

I am not certain it is an over exaggeration. I think that While Perkins may have comparable statistics, what we are seeing is skewed by the fact that he is incredibly inconsistent. One game brilliant another game dismal. I have always wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt but these meltdowns like he had last night are making that increasingly difficult. At this stage I am just tired of watching him when he has games like this. He is very predictable and those teams that prepare for him put all of his weaknesses on display.

avid-zag-fan
12-22-2017, 06:29 AM
CDC [/QUOTE]Keep in mind his stats before this game. 2 for 1 A/T ratio. High shooting percentages from three and from the field. But I worry about him come late February. He's going to end up playing a ton of minutes.[/QUOTE]

Kenpom shows Perkins as 24.8/23.9 assist/turnover per 100 possessions. basically 1 for 1

avid-zag-fan
12-22-2017, 06:38 AM
sorry miss interpreted the stat:

Assist Rate (ARate): This is assists divided by the field goals made by the player’s teammates while he is on the court.
Turnover Rate (TORate): This is the percentage of personal possessions used on turnovers. It can be highly dependent on context. Players that do little passing or dribbling (i.e. spot-up shooters) will have an artificially deflated TO%.

gueastcoast
12-22-2017, 06:48 AM
He had a terrible game, and as we've learned over the years he does this from time to time. This year he's exposed and as CDC notes, he's our motor with no real backup. There is no alternative, gnash our teeth as we might.

This one will sting for him, and I trust the staff to make the adjustments to help him understand how game flow matters and, as someone mentioned in another thread, why valuing every possession is more critical in some games than in others. Against a long, muddy-it-up team like SDSU, it's critical.

BTW to the OP: a friend of mine from business school founded And1 in 1993. I can assure you he's no more a fan of dumb turnovers than we are, mixtapes notwithstanding.

raise the zag
12-22-2017, 06:49 AM
And I was just beginning to forgive Perk for his 2 consecutive TO's vs North Carolina to start the 2nd half, when we had a 9 pt lead, yet literally handed them the ball, along with the momentum in the first 45 seconds.

Perkins is our "ride or die" PG. We need to learn to accept him. There is no alternative, no other option, hell, no substitute.

In his defense, we did go on a 8-0 run, and a 10-4 run with Silas sitting, so maybe we go after him for a bit, take some pressure off Perk. Kidding.

Anyway, I'm not sure where Josh's mind goes occasionally. Sometimes his mind and body aren't on the court, because his passes are so off the mark and inexplicable in KEY moments, its worse than the majority of HS guards would make.

It got so bad last night, esp in transition, I think we should have rolled the dice with Wade, Norvell, someone to take the PG duties for at least 5 or 6 mins.

Maybe during that nearly 8 min stretch we were within 1 pt and could not take the lead or even tie.

WallaWallaZag
12-22-2017, 07:05 AM
i feel bad for perkins because he has to take the brunt of the blame because he has no support...melson can't play pg and isn't much of a shooting guard either except for his defense. jw3 doesn't have the skills to help run the offense and has been turnover prone himself as he's a black hole in the post, norvell can score but isn't ready to facilitate the offense, and finally there's tillie, who should have the skills to help, but can't stay on the court or keep his head in the game consistently enough.

nwg was obviously better, especially in terms of leadership, but he had perkins as a sidekick plus a de facto pg in the post in karno...not a fair comparison. not to mention also having an experienced senior mathews as 3rd guard, who doesn't get enough credit for the things he did outside of shooting threes...he was rock solid in all facets and better all-around than melson and norvell (right now...norvell should surpass him in time)

Ezag
12-22-2017, 07:12 AM
i feel bad for perkins because he has to take the brunt of the blame because he has no support...melson sucks as a pg and isn't much of a shooting guard either except for his defense. jw3 doesn't have the skills to help run the offense and has been turnover prone himself as he's a black hole in the post, norvell can score but isn't ready to facilitate the offense, and finally there's tillie, who should have the skills to help, but can't stay on the court or keep his head in the game consistently enough.

Agreed! I have been a bit critical of Josh in past years but this year he has it all on his shoulders with no backup, no rest time and no reliable SG with him on the court.

zagamatic
12-22-2017, 11:03 AM
I think that what is frustrating for many fans, including me, is that it's not like SDSU turned in the game of their lives to beat us last night. In fact, they played like a low to mid level WCC team and we just couldn't pull our collective heads out long enough to pull it off as most Zags teams have been able to do in the past. And as far as Perkins goes specifically, a lot of us are frustrated by the fact that he accounts for a lot more turnovers than he shows on his stat line. And yes, I know that this is true for all point guards, but he's on the high end of the spectrum.

cggonzaga
12-22-2017, 07:04 PM
And as far as Perkins goes specifically, a lot of us are frustrated by the fact that he accounts for a lot more turnovers than he shows on his stat line.

Huh?

cggonzaga
12-22-2017, 07:24 PM
I am not certain it is an over exaggeration. I think that While Perkins may have comparable statistics, what we are seeing is skewed by the fact that he is incredibly inconsistent. One game brilliant another game dismal. I have always wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt but these meltdowns like he had last night are making that increasingly difficult. At this stage I am just tired of watching him when he has games like this. He is very predictable and those teams that prepare for him put all of his weaknesses on display.

I know the Josh haters don’t like facts but here’s some more. He actually isn’t all that inconsistent. He’s scored between 13-20pts in 9 of 13 games. His ppg numbers aren’t inflated by a couple 30 point games. He also has had between 4-8 assists in 10 of 13 games. I think what CDC stated makes what Josh has done this year even more impressive.

p.s. yes I do believe he turns the ball over too much at times to a lack of focus or by trying to do too much.

Zags11
12-22-2017, 08:01 PM
I know the Josh haters don’t like facts but here’s some more. He actually isn’t all that inconsistent. He’s scored between 13-20pts in 9 of 13 games. His ppg numbers aren’t inflated by a couple 30 point games. He also has had between 4-8 assists in 10 of 13 games. I think what CDC stated makes what Josh has done this year even more impressive.

p.s. yes I do believe he turns the ball over too much at times to a lack of focus or by trying to do too much.

Lose to wvu in sw16 if goss is Perkins with this team.
10pts. 2-10 shooting. 5 turnovers and 2 assists.

4pts. 2-9 shooting vs Portland. 3 ass and 1 to.

9pts. 4-13 shooting vs SDSU

15pts. 5-17 shooting vs NC

9pts. 3-12 shooting vs SDSU on 2nd game of yr. 3 assists and 4 turnovers.

15pts. 3-11 shooting vs Portland at home.

20pts. 6-19 shooting vs NW.

11.7ppg on 27.4% shooting.

Team record 6-1. If you think we go 6-1 with Perkins doing that? Your high. Probably 2-5.

cggonzaga
12-22-2017, 11:54 PM
Lose to wvu in sw16 if he Perkins.
10pts. 2-10 shooting. 5 turnovers and 2 assists.

4pts. 2-9 shooting vs Portland. 3 ass and 1 to.

9pts. 4-13 shooting vs SDSU

15pts. 5-17 shooting vs NC

9pts. 3-12 shooting vs SDSU on 2nd game of yr. 3 assists and 4 turnovers.

15pts. 3-11 shooting vs Portland at home.

20pts. 6-19 shooting vs NW.

11.7ppg on 27.4% shooting.

Team record 6-1. If you think we go 6-1 with Perkins doing that? Your high. Probably 2-5.

Those are Goss’ numbers?

Zags11
12-23-2017, 03:29 AM
Those are Goss’ numbers?

Yea oops I thought I put that. I looked the stats up because people either ignore or forget previous yrs. Some said worst loss since 99. I looked up when zags lost to 17-14 Loyola.

And I looked up goss Stats since ppl keep comparing him to Perkins. These stats by goss were eye sores and their were more 7-19 and 5-13 games too.

My point was A) goss had bad games too. B) it wasn't a big deal as we won every horrible game minus the NC game. C) Perkins doesn't get this luxury.

jazzdelmar
12-23-2017, 04:16 AM
Yea oops I thought I put that. I looked the stats up because people either ignore or forget previous yrs. Some said worst loss since 99. I looked up when zags lost to 17-14 Loyola.

And I looked up goss Stats since ppl keep comparing him to Perkins. These stats by goss were eye sores and their were more 7-19 and 5-13 games too.

My point was A) goss had bad games too. B) it wasn't a big deal as we won every horrible game minus the NC game. C) Perkins doesn't get this luxury.

Eleven, you need to take some time off, my friend. Merry Xmas.

bigblahla
12-23-2017, 04:32 AM
I don't think there is a JP hater on this board....he's a Zag but that doesn't give him a free pass....

I wrote this in the game thread and say it here...

If you don't play under control you cannot control tempo or run a team.....quote all the stats you want....my eyes don't lie.....

It's not about how much it's about when, where and why? The why seems to be self induced lack of focus? ADD on the court?

Go!! Zags!!!

vandalzag
12-23-2017, 06:08 AM
I don't think there is a JP hater on this board....he's a Zag but that doesn't give him a free pass....

I wrote this in the game thread and say it here...

If you don't play under control you cannot control tempo or run a team.....quote all the stats you want....my eyes don't lie.....

It's not about how much it's about when, where and why? The why seems to be self induced lack of focus? ADD on the court?

Go!! Zags!!!

Agree on all parts with exception of the "haters" because there are some that will not give him credit for anything positive. The main issue with Josh is still self inflicted mistakes and timing. When he has a good game he knows when to force the issue and he cuts down on the bad decisions what was he thinking type plays. When he has the bad games we get SDSU Nova type performances. Without a backup there is no way for Few to get him on the sidelines to adjust or simply break the flow. Josh represents the team, when he is good he is really good. But when he is bad he is really bad. Xmas break and a soft opening in the WCC are just what these boys needed.

TexasZagFan
12-23-2017, 06:20 AM
Playing 35+ minutes IMO can lead to bad decisions/bad shots in the last few minutes of the game. Not saying Josh isn't in shape, to the contrary. He needs the chance for a couple of 2-3 minutes off every half to catch his breath, and get coached up, if need be. Hopefully, that relief is on the way.

cggonzaga
12-23-2017, 07:34 AM
Agree with 11, vandal and texas on different points. Josh doesn’t get passes like Goss did because the team still won when Goss played a poor game. Josh’s body isn’t built to play more than 30mpg. Regardless he needs a stronger focus at times as I don’t believe anybody is arguing that. What’s not right for posters on this board is that Josh gets all the blame when we lose and very little credit when we win. Before a poster rips Josh in the future you might want to think what this team would be without him.

Zags11
12-23-2017, 08:38 AM
Eleven, you need to take some time off, my friend. Merry Xmas.

Same with you. Rest up. Merry Xmas.

Zags11
12-23-2017, 08:39 AM
Agree with 11, vandal and texas on different points. Josh doesn’t get passes like Goss did because the team still won when Goss played a poor game. Josh’s body isn’t built to play more than 30mpg. Regardless he needs a stronger focus at times as I don’t believe anybody is arguing that. What’s not right for posters on this board is that Josh gets all the blame when we lose and very little credit when we win. Before a poster rips Josh in the future you might want to think what this team would be without him.

.500. I said it. Don't @ me. ;)

billyberu
12-23-2017, 09:54 AM
I think as a whole that was one of the worst games i have ever seen since i started following in 1998. Absolutely pathetic effort against a really really bad team.That is literally the dumbest statement I've read in the nearly 20 years I've been following Gonzaga.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

TexasZagFan
12-23-2017, 11:09 AM
That is literally the dumbest statement I've read in the nearly 20 years I've been following Gonzaga.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

Huge sample size to draw from Billy! :lmao: