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Bogozags
12-11-2017, 09:36 AM
Do you ever wonder how good much better GU could have been IF:

Daye would have stayed for one more year - 2009-10

KO would have played his final year in 2013-14

Domantas would have stayed and played in 2016-17 (Collins might not have come but would rather have had DS for that season - no doubt we win the NC)

jazzdelmar
12-11-2017, 09:40 AM
Do you ever wonder how good much better GU could have been IF:

Daye would have stayed for one more year - 2009-10

KO would have played his final year in 2013-14

Domantas would have stayed and played in 2016-17 (Collins might not have come but would rather have had DS for that season - no doubt we win the NC)

We could have DS and Goss this year. Think on that.

former1dog
12-11-2017, 09:47 AM
I used to do this with my own athletic career a bit. I learned that all the coulda, shoulda and woulda's plus $5 will get you a cup of coffee, but that's about it.

MDABE80
12-11-2017, 09:49 AM
I used to do this with my own athletic career a bit. I learned that all the coulda, shoulda and woulda's plus $5 will get you a cup of coffee, but that's about it.

10 cents.

23dpg
12-11-2017, 09:52 AM
No, I never do. Really. I’m enjoying the ride this year like every year.
Every team that’s any good could ask these questions. It doesn’t register with me.

Bogozags
12-11-2017, 09:54 AM
Hey, you guys need to lighten up a little bit...stop and smell the roses :D (I am retired and have nothing better to do than think of sheet as it is toooo damn cold to go out and play golf)

Jazz we have thought that one over several times...if DS and Goss would have stayed, we would be undefeated AND if Collins did come to GU then he wouldn't have gone to the NBA, because he would not of had the playing time last year with DS, PK JWIII, ZC and Tillie...

By the way, what's the difference between my far out thread than: Who is (are) our rivals or Honest Question...do we lose again this season??? :cheers:

DixieZag
12-11-2017, 09:59 AM
Talking about what might have been if so and so would have stayed can be addictive. But, one thing we don't often do is look at whether any of the opponents we beat along the way might've been better had one of their stars stayed.

webspinnre
12-11-2017, 10:03 AM
I stop and think about things like this for fun sometimes. Nothing wrong with looking at hypotheticals as daydreams as long as we don't get caught up in it.

Bogozags
12-11-2017, 10:09 AM
I stop and think about things like this for fun sometimes. Nothing wrong with looking at hypotheticals as daydreams as long as we don't get caught up in it.

THANK YOU! Like I said it's to dam cold to play golf...

seacatfan
12-11-2017, 10:10 AM
Of course I do this sometimes. But as someone else alluded, every good program has lost guys early to pro careers, some more than others. In recent years Duke and Kentucky have been losing probably 3-4 early entrant guys on a yearly basis.

Another aspect is that if a guy DIDN'T go early, the next man up behind wouldn't develop the same or as quickly. That's the true beauty of college sports to me, players always leave (whether it's after 4 years or less than 4, whatever the case may be) but the team still remains and someone else is wearing the uniform, and sometimes the replacement is so good you quickly stop missing the departed player.

TexasZagFan
12-11-2017, 10:14 AM
Talking about what might have been if so and so would have stayed can be addictive. But, one thing we don't often do is look at whether any of the opponents we beat along the way might've been better had one of their stars stayed.

Wouldn't matter with SMC...do they ever have anyone leaving early?

Goshzagit
12-11-2017, 10:22 AM
In all honestly, I never did...until this year.

I was fine with all leaving early. Even when Sabonis left, he put in his time and became a star and savior that season for us. He deserved his lottery pick and it was a celebrated moment in Zag history.

For some reason, for the first time ever, I can't seem to get over Zach Collins leaving after only 1 season. As a bench player. Only 18 yrs old. Not really accomplishing much, outside some sweet swats and key rebounds in the NCAA Tournament.

Just not ready, physically, nor skill/fundamental wise. One more year could have done wonders for him.

He is making $3 million per year to sit on the bench. That's cute as a "project" year 1, but NBA GM's don't and won't pay their bench players that much. Also, NBA head coaches don't 'develop' as much as they used to given the pressure to WIN NOW or be fired like never before.

For all this "potential" talk in NBA circles, you get ONE off-season to make or break in this League, esp at that price.

A wasted year as a 19 yr old kid, imho.

To sit the bench and never play a minute.

You could argue he would have been drafted Top 5 this season, as he'd be our superstar on a Top-10, maybe Top-5 team WITH him (after Ayton & Bagley), which is nearly double the salary (if money is your focus).

Collins will be fine, he's athletic, smart kid, skilled, and 7' tall, but was there really a rush at 18? Is he having fun? Did he really prove himself at this level?

No doubt he will do well, eventually, but he is the only one I still can't get over and think about all the time. We could use the depth at Center, shot blocking, rebounding, running the floor with this current group. And fearless type of player. If you thought Nova struggled to contain Larsen, Collins could have had 25.

Perkins
Silas
Norvell/Kispert
J3
Collins

Tillie first off bench (better served given his selective motor and foul issues)
Rui backing up J3
Larsen spelling Collins

This year's squad is/was one consistent, dominant, high motor player away from a Top-3 ranking. NWG or Collins would do that. At the college level, one player can make all the difference.

TexasZagFan
12-11-2017, 10:37 AM
I hear ya, Goshzagit. I've moved on, though...maybe because I spent a few days in Spokane this summer, and I never heard Zach's name uttered.

Zach had that one great game against South Carolina, getting us into the championship game. I'll always appreciate him for that.


This year's squad is/was one consistent, dominant, high motor player away from a Top-3 ranking.

We have potentially two of the players you describe: Messrs. Kispert and Norvell. If Tillie starts drinking half a case of Diet Coke like Trump does every day, he'd be #3. :lmao:

23dpg
12-11-2017, 10:47 AM
I have zero issues with Collins going to the nba. It I were his uncle, I would have advised him to do as such. Even with my profound Zag love. Strike while the iron’s hot. There’s no telling what might have happened if he returned. Career ending injury? His play over scrutinized? I highly doubt he would have gone higher. This is a loaded draft.
Plus the nba absolutely pays bench guys millions. The Blazers paid Crabbe 76 million for 4 years and Leonard 46 million to come off the bench. Kelly Olynyk got paid 50 million. Many, many more examples.

CDC84
12-11-2017, 12:55 PM
The problem, though, is that Zach is only playing 6.2mpg on basically a .500 team. I don't care how much money they offered me, I could only take so much of that before I quit and did something else. You want to compete. Money can only offer so much. Give it time, I know. Kelly O. is averaging 20.8mg. I just hope Zach can mature to the point to where he can make a career out of it like Ronny did and it appears Kelly O. is going to be able to.

What I'd love to see is a Zag play a major part on a NBA finals team besides John Stockton.

I just don't know what to think about Austin Daye. Sometimes I feel he'd be playing good minutes if he stayed all 4 years at GU, but he just had a body that couldn't add weight, and honestly, he didn't have much toughness as a player. The combination of being really thin and lacking toughness is not a good one for the NBA.

I do believe that if Collins had come back, Nigel would've stayed. 99% certain of it. Nigel would have been willing to put his overseas career on hold for another season. The combination of Nigel and Collins w/ the current guys would've made GU a national title favorite. NWG might have even worked his way into the draft because this year's draft isn't spectacular.

seacatfan
12-11-2017, 01:08 PM
NWG was drafted, @ #55. Last year's player of the year, Frank Mason from Kansas, went early 2nd round. If NWG had a phenomenal year and was national player of the year, he may have gone from late to early 2nd round. No difference really. Plus I thought this year's draft is considered loaded, way better than last year's. I could be wrong, but I'm fairly certain I've heard that more than once.

bartruff1
12-11-2017, 02:02 PM
nope.....

adoptedzag
12-11-2017, 03:26 PM
In all honestly, I never did...until this year.

I was fine with all leaving early. Even when Sabonis left, he put in his time and became a star and savior that season for us. He deserved his lottery pick and it was a celebrated moment in Zag history.

For some reason, for the first time ever, I can't seem to get over Zach Collins leaving after only 1 season. As a bench player. Only 18 yrs old. Not really accomplishing much, outside some sweet swats and key rebounds in the NCAA Tournament.

Just not ready, physically, nor skill/fundamental wise. One more year could have done wonders for him.

He is making $3 million per year to sit on the bench. That's cute as a "project" year 1, but NBA GM's don't and won't pay their bench players that much. Also, NBA head coaches don't 'develop' as much as they used to given the pressure to WIN NOW or be fired like never before.

For all this "potential" talk in NBA circles, you get ONE off-season to make or break in this League, esp at that price.

A wasted year as a 19 yr old kid, imho.

To sit the bench and never play a minute.

You could argue he would have been drafted Top 5 this season, as he'd be our superstar on a Top-10, maybe Top-5 team WITH him (after Ayton & Bagley), which is nearly double the salary (if money is your focus).

Collins will be fine, he's athletic, smart kid, skilled, and 7' tall, but was there really a rush at 18? Is he having fun? Did he really prove himself at this level?

No doubt he will do well, eventually, but he is the only one I still can't get over and think about all the time. We could use the depth at Center, shot blocking, rebounding, running the floor with this current group. And fearless type of player. If you thought Nova struggled to contain Larsen, Collins could have had 25.

Perkins
Silas
Norvell/Kispert
J3
Collins

Tillie first off bench (better served given his selective motor and foul issues)
Rui backing up J3
Larsen spelling Collins

This year's squad is/was one consistent, dominant, high motor player away from a Top-3 ranking. NWG or Collins would do that. At the college level, one player can make all the difference.

If I offered you $3m/year to travel, exercise, and have front court seats to basketball games that you get to play in every now and again, you'd turn it down? Especially being young again and all that comes with that? I think you're not understanding what kind of money $3m/year is. If the ridiculous "one and done" rule weren't in place, would he have come to GU? Doubtful. I think that's more what's got you down than the length of time that Zach was obligated to stay before he ventured into the professional ranks.

Development comes with game time and work ethic. One Zach has and the other will come. Personally if my son or daughters were offered NBA-level money to leave school early, I would be at their door to help them pack up the dorm room. School can be done online or in person when you're old and decrepit. He can't play in the NBA that way.

zagdontzig
12-11-2017, 09:09 PM
I'm a believer that early derpatures who are successful in the league result in better recruiting. To me, it's at worst, a wash

El Zag
12-11-2017, 11:10 PM
https://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/5823/

webspinnre
12-11-2017, 11:22 PM
https://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/5823/

9 points and 7 boards! Welcome back, Zach!

jazzdelmar
12-12-2017, 01:02 AM
9 points and 7 boards! Welcome back, Zach!

Zach, we hardly knew ye.

Bogozags
12-12-2017, 04:03 AM
I just started this thread for fun to just talk about what if’s, nothing more...

I have my personal feelings on those that left early and each and everyone of us that went to college did so to get and education that would enhance the possibilities of entering into a profession in which we would enjoy and that would also provide us with the financial means to provide for a good quality of life for us and our families.

I didn’t begrudge any of the above for leaving college early, because each of them were guaranteed a salary that would provide them all of the above...

I don’t think there is anyone that can make an argument for any of these kids to forgo the big bucks they received to sign a contract with a multi-billion dollar industry that sets them up for life...

IF IBM or ATT or Apple offered you the same amount of money to leave school early and go work for them would you stay in college? I think not! I sure as heck would have been signing on the dotted line a second after the offer was made...

No this isn’t about them leaving early for the NBA as it is how much better the GU team would have been if they would have stayed...sure UK has first rounders leave early every year so OTHER teams that lost underclassmen to the NBA Draft are not a part of “this” equation...

TexasZagFan
12-12-2017, 05:02 AM
Zach, we hardly knew ye.

From the snippets I saw on ESPN, Zach really looked lost on defense. Not his fault...after averaging several nanoseconds a game the first two months, he plays 28 minutes?

Goshzagit
12-12-2017, 06:44 AM
From the snippets I saw on ESPN, Zach really looked lost on defense. Not his fault...after averaging several nanoseconds a game the first two months, he plays 28 minutes?

3.1 million per year. Pressure from above. Owners and GM's want production from their assets, especially their high draft pick. Fans want/need it too.

Given the CBA salary changes and short-term Coaching contracts, the pressure is to win and perform now.

This ain't the NBA of old.

Zach was a Top-10 pick. He better play now, or risks being trade-bait (as a lotto pick), trade piece, or relegated to D-League. Once traded, your new team has no 'stock' or investment in you anymore, they may like or not like you since they didn't draft you. Not 'their' guy, etc.

Just ask Adam following injury as a rookie. You don't want to be traded early on.

Good to see Collins go from .01 min per game to 28 mpg. Top-10 picks aren't paid to sit, 2nd Rounders or UDFA are for that.

I was starting to get worried, for Zach's future sake. Good sign going forward and given the 0 to 60 its definitely coming from above, either wanting results now at 3 million per year, or "showcasing" him already for other teams.

CDC84
12-12-2017, 08:03 AM
If I offered you $3m/year to travel, exercise, and have front court seats to basketball games that you get to play in every now and again, you'd turn it down? Especially being young again and all that comes with that? I think you're not understanding what kind of money $3m/year is. If the ridiculous "one and done" rule weren't in place, would he have come to GU? Doubtful. I think that's more what's got you down than the length of time that Zach was obligated to stay before he ventured into the professional ranks.

Despite his McDonald's AA status, Zach was a recruit that was ranked in the 50's and 60's at most sites. He wouldn't have been a one and done player. He wouldn't have been drafted. I'd bet huge money on it. NO ONE, not even the GU coaching staff, could have expected him to blossom like he did. And a key factor in this is that he blossomed during the NCAA tournament. He was the best player at the final four, which is watched by way more people than the NBA finals. Zach became a known commodity at the NCAA tournament to the average basketball fan. Before it was just geeks like us who love the college game in November and December. People way, way underestimate the power of the NCAA tournament in not only making talented players popular, but also in how the prestigious event grows player confidence and development. It took Zach a long, long time for him to sneak into the 2017 mocks. And even there, I don't think he would have declared until he got to where he ended up getting selected.

People also tend to way overestimate the amount of kids who would turn pro if we removed the age limit. If you go back to 2000 or whatever, you will see only 8 or 9 kids who bolted after high school. And those were the absolute, cream of the crop. Of course half of them turned out to be duds. But you can draft an experienced player at #7 and have him turn out to be a dud as well.

As a prospect I would do whatever I could to promote my longevity beyond the first NBA contract. I think Collins has too much upside to not do that. If he gets that second contract, he definitely made the right choice. Like Kevin Durant, you can always get your degree later. As for myself, no amount of money could get me to sit on the bench, playing 6mpg on a mediocre team for ten years. The competitor in me couldn't take it. But that doesn't tend to happen to players. If you don't play more that 6mpg in your first three to four years, you're playing in Europe or doing something else.

I still argue that people have it wrong about the age limit. The problem with the NBA is the minimum rookie salary cap. If you removed it, the NBA would get what it wants.....only the true, can't miss prospects like LeBron and Kobe joining the league out of high school.....and the anti-age limit people would get what they want: freedom of choice. Also, guys like LeBron and Kobe would get what they want as 18 year olds.....massive NBA contracts. I believe the NBA rookie salary cap is one of the worst decisions a professional sports league has ever made. It killed off the popularity of the league. Even more than Jordan retiring. Not having a cap allowed for an economic incentive for kids to not go pro until they were truly ready.

zag944
12-12-2017, 09:36 AM
They've been putting Collins out there a bit more the last two games so hopefully that continues and he can get a rhythm.

Regarding the original question....I think we are pretty clearly a better team if Daye and Kelly had stayed another year. I believe the teams that they hypothetically would've been on were 8/9 seed game teams that got blown out in the round of 32 by Syracuse and Arizona respectively. The team in the Kelly situation could have been really special.

Regarding Sabonis, I think last years team was so good that I would hesitate to simply add a great player and assume the whole thing is going to be the sum of its parts. Mark Few found the right alchemy with the exact roster he had. Perhaps Sabonis is a better player than any big that was on the team, but JWIII and Collins both had terrific tournaments that he might not have topped (presumably that is where the minutes would've come from in this hypothetical), and who knows if the overall "mix" would have been something even close to the same.