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GonzagasaurusFlex
12-05-2017, 05:45 PM
Not trying to steal anyoneís thunder by starting this thread, I just need to vent:

Zags lack an on-court leader to calm guys down, make the right plays, stop the frantic play that resulted in so many turnovers.

JWIII is trying too hard and isnít being helped by the coaches enough. I seriously think Larsen needs to start so JWIII can play his more natural power forward spot. Tillie isnít assertive enough to be the star, despite being talented enough. Let him play super sub role and get starters minutes.

As others shared in game thread, it really looked like Zags never believed they could win.

Kong-Kool-Aid
12-05-2017, 05:51 PM
It's one game, at least we didn't lose to BYU at home, a team like that could never make it to the National Championship game.

Learn some lessons and move on, lots of season yet to play.

sheps001
12-05-2017, 05:53 PM
Not trying to steal anyoneís thunder by starting this thread, I just need to vent:

Zags lack an on-court leader to calm guys down, make the right plays, stop the frantic play that resulted in so many turnovers.

JWIII is trying too hard and isnít being helped by the coaches enough. I seriously think Larsen needs to start so JWIII can play his more natural power forward spot. Tillie isnít assertive enough to be the star, despite being talented enough. Let him play super sub role and get starters minutes.

As others shared in game thread, it really looked like Zags never believed they could win.

It wasn't even close. They dominated us and made us look bad. Sorry but that's the truth. Bright spots Larsen big time and Norvelle. The rest played terribly especially JWIII. Glad not to see him in. Larsen was way way better.

ZagsObserver
12-05-2017, 05:53 PM
Really could have used NWG in this one. Turnovers killed us and just couldn’t keep pace with the physicality of Nova. They dictated the pace of the game. Chalk it up as a bad game. However, this game along with a Texas debacle has me thinking there are things that need to be fixed if GU is going to get past the elite teams.

Zagger
12-05-2017, 05:53 PM
Jonathan Williams with 5 fouls and 5 points ..... It was a hard game to watch. Zags fouled 22 times and Nova 21 times. There were some good plays here and there but ... with the Zags having 18 turnovers. Not a good game for the Zags.

23dpg
12-05-2017, 05:58 PM
Zags lost to a better team that also played better. It’s been a long time since any team did this to Gonzaga.

Just because this team isn’t as good as last year’s team it shouldn’t stop us from enjoying the season.

Not sure what else to say, move on.

seacatfan
12-05-2017, 06:01 PM
As others shared in game thread, it really looked like Zags never believed they could win.

I made a comment along those lines in the game thread, but I was responding to another post talking about a game @ MSG vs. Duke from years gone by. Not sure about not believing they could win tonight, but they sure weren't focused and sharp, with all those early TO's.

CDC84
12-05-2017, 06:03 PM
I am very tempted to start Larsen over JWIII as well....except that the next game is a road game, and Larsen has never played a D-1 road game before. This will be the toughest road environment GU will play in all year. JWIII is pressing to much, and he is turning the ball over way, way, way too much. As are the guards. It would nice to hit the reset button and have JWIII come off the pine for one game, but I am not sure they can afford it. If they were playing UW at home, maybe.

I realize Norvell Jr. is shooting out of his mind right now, but this team DESPERATELY needs Corey Kispert back. He wouldn't have won the game tonight, be he's one of the two toughest players GU has, and he is a way better all around player than anyone who is coming off the bench. The NBA scouts can think what they want, but as Matt Norlander says, Rui is severely lacking on defense, and as Few says, he has yet to prove he can play effectively in a halfcourt grinding game.

This team doesn't have much depth. As Few says, it's one of the big differences between this year's team and last year's team. In order for Gonzaga to be, say, a sweet 16 caliber team, it needs to have all hands on deck.

Villanova is clearly a different caliber of team than GU, but it really has more to do with basketball IQ, toughness, commitment to all out defense, good leadership and many other things that GU is just lacking right now.

Sunday night is really going to be tough. If GU turns the ball over like they did tonight, it will ignite the Hec Ed crowd to levels of loudness that will cause the roof to come off.

And please....Gonzaga is not in any threat of missing the NCAA tournament right now. I remember a #3 seeded GU team that got absolutely thrashed by Illinois. But they need to get Corey back and sure up this turnover problem. And toughen the defense as well. And let no one else get hurt.

Martin Centre Mad Man
12-05-2017, 06:08 PM
Coming into this season, I thought that Norvell would be our best offensive guard by mid-season. He looked very raw during some of the early games, but he is starting to figure out how to compete at this level. We need him.

Malastein
12-05-2017, 06:09 PM
Zags took themselves out of this game early and often. Can’t be that sloppy with the basketball especially when you aren’t hitting the boards with force. They played better in the second, but could never quite get out of the hole they dug themselves. Hard to pin this on any one guy since nobody played that great when it mattered. Norvell can ball on offense, but does it outside the flow of the system. This team needs work across the board. Even with Kispert, this is still a loss by high single digits.

Skimhvn
12-05-2017, 06:10 PM
At this level, Norvell shines. Only he can play with what he has against such a team.

katman50
12-05-2017, 06:13 PM
I am very tempted to start Larsen over JWIII as well....except that the next game is a road game, and Larsen has never played a D-1 road game before. This will be the toughest road environment GU will play in all year. JWIII is pressing to much, and he is turning the ball over way, way, way too much. As are the guards. It would nice to hit the reset button and have JWIII come off the pine for one game, but I am not sure they can afford it. If they were playing UW at home, maybe.

I realize Norvell Jr. is shooting out of his mind right now, but this team DESPERATELY needs Corey Kispert back. He wouldn't have won the game tonight, be he's one of the two toughest players GU has, and he is a way better all around player than anyone who is coming off the bench. The NBA scouts can think what they want, but as Matt Norlander says, Rui is severely lacking on defense, and as Few says, he has yet to prove he can play effectively in a halfcourt grinding game.

This team doesn't have much depth. As Few says, it's one of the big differences between this year's team and last year's team. In order for Gonzaga to be, say, a sweet 16 caliber team, it needs to have all hands on deck.

Villanova is clearly a different caliber of team than GU, but it really has more to do with basketball IQ, toughness, commitment to all out defense, good leadership and many other things that GU is just lacking right now.

Sunday night is really going to be tough. If GU turns the ball over like they did tonight, it will ignite the Hec Ed crowd to levels of loudness that will cause the roof to come off.

And please....Gonzaga is not in any threat of missing the NCAA tournament right now. I remember a #3 seeded GU team that got absolutely thrashed by Illinois. But they need to get Corey back and sure up this turnover problem. And toughen the defense as well. And let no one else get hurt.

A great and thoughtful analysis, as usual, CDC.

Hoopaholic
12-05-2017, 06:14 PM
Coming into this season, I thought that Norvell would be our best offensive guard by mid-season. He looked very raw during some of the early games, but he is starting to figure out how to compete at this level. We need him.

Except there are two sides to the game of basketball. Needs to focus on defensive issues

GrizZAG
12-05-2017, 06:20 PM
Zags lost to a better team that also played better. It’s been a long time since any team did this to Gonzaga.

Just because this team isn’t as good as last year’s team it shouldn’t stop us from enjoying the season.

Not sure what else to say, move on.


Agree
Not sure it was ever realistic to think we were ready for that polished of an athletic team IMO. J3 hasn't been the force we expected but I for one am very encouraged this team will be incredibly good going into season's end. We now know Larson, Norvell and Kispert are future strong assets. Our core guys in Josh, Melson, Tillie are solid. Like Creighton, Villi played lock down defense on Perkins, so he struggled again. Hand it to Villanova, they played superior defense, shot the 3 with poise and had patience to get off the right shot over and over. We looked rather dis-conbuberated out there tonight at times. Is that a word? LOL
Hats off to Villanova, they were really good tonight. Back to what 23 dog said....enjoy the ride.

RE: Perkins lousy lay in move: Playing back that series it looked like he was watching over his shoulder and wanting to make a pass to Jones over his shoulder rather than go to the bucket, but Jones didn't get there and Josh was caught with indecisiveness at the bucket. He was embarrassed but that's how I saw it. I will look again I may have missed the rolled ankle some mentioned.

Birddog
12-05-2017, 06:24 PM
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-piYABmwTIcg/UZ70RNqntHI/AAAAAAAADI8/eg3NZ6cJMqg/s1600/funny-picture-8718.jpg


Nova had better players and the Zags were outhustled and outsmarted.

Hoopaholic
12-05-2017, 06:26 PM
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-piYABmwTIcg/UZ70RNqntHI/AAAAAAAADI8/eg3NZ6cJMqg/s1600/funny-picture-8718.jpg


Nova had better players and the Zags were outhustled and outsmarted.

Agree with two of the three

Lots of tape for the young ones to learn from. It is first week f December and
Many of these kids still learning roles expectations intensity and detail

seacatfan
12-05-2017, 06:26 PM
I don't know about rolling his ankle but something definitely happened, stumbled or his foot got caught, something. Probably due to indecision or hearing footsteps behind him.

CDC84
12-05-2017, 06:29 PM
I also very much agree with a previous poster that this team lacks leadership. Josh, Silas and JWIII are all too quiet. Probably the best innate leader in the whole bunch is Corey Kispert, but with the exception of transcendent talents like Carmelo, it is ideal that your leader(s) be upperclassmen like Nigel and Karnowski. That is the one major issue with Duke right now. I asked a basketball analyst today why is Duke, despite all their talent, messing around with these 18 point wins vs. teams like South Dakota? The #1 thing I think about Duke, outside of Coach K, is their traditional ability to absolutely trash guarantee opponents. The Duke norm is to beat low majors by 50 pts.. One of the issues with this year's Duke bunch is that they have no leader. Who is the guy who is supposed to be their leader? Grayson Allen. In other words, they have no leader, but their talent is carrying them through right now.

Unfortunately, leadership has to come forward naturally. Coaches can't force players to be leaders. They can only encourage them.

bartruff1
12-05-2017, 06:34 PM
I thought Josh was going to pass the ball back for a dunk..... Melson played well....as usual... Nova controlled the tempo and never let Gonzaga get comfortable....they are very good and will get better...and so will Gonzaga, Norvell is not afraid to score......

Birddog
12-05-2017, 06:40 PM
Check out this boxscore, it's kinda cryptic.
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore?gameId=400986882

Skimhvn
12-05-2017, 06:41 PM
Rui, how do you play without your best skill.

JPtheBeasta
12-05-2017, 06:42 PM
The game might have been different if Nova had any pressure on them. The Zags played tight and the other guys were comfortably hitting 3s all night, making 10 and shooting 48%. GU was able to score on them when they weren't dribbling the ball off their feet. And that was without JW3, who is supposed to be the go-to post scorer. Larsen looked really good and his size down low was much needed. It was good to see Perkins taking the ball to the hole (I'm going to try to erase that would-be lay-up turned transient ischemic attack of a pass to Jones). Tillie wilted a bit when we needed him.

It's alright to lay an egg. This win would have been nice but is not a deal breaker on a good season.

ETA: As bad as this was, Villanova is a team that the Zags can beat. Considering that Villanova is an Elite 8 quality team, this bodes well for the Zags.

Zag4Hire
12-05-2017, 07:06 PM
I was excited for this game but not looking forward to this game. The Florida game was one thing but the Texas game was another. Outside of first 5 minutes, hard to understand this team.

If you are opposing team, how do you not put more pressure on this team to bring it up the court (Full Court, 3/4 Press, Half Court Trap, etc.)? I would do this every time. Also the way GU defends the 3 ball, this might be an option for them as well.

Was the team ill-prepared for any kind of pressure? Any play that beat pressure was a crazy 20+ yard pass with a very nice reception but nothing in the flow of the game to matter.

Sweet jesus almost a 50 piece from 3 pt land?! C'mon guys. The worst part was seeing GU pack the zone and lose O-boards due to long rebounds.

The rest of the way won't anywhere near resemble a Nova team. A lot of work to do but plenty of time.

jim77
12-05-2017, 07:08 PM
Agree with two of the three

Lots of tape for the young ones to learn from. It is first week f December and
Many of these kids still learning roles expectations intensity and detail

Lots of tape is right.

Nova has to be the most fundamentally solid team I've seen play this year. They do so many things well....this wasn't the Zags having a bad game...this was just a victory by the superior team. I really think this is a good loss....The film of this game needs to mandatory viewing at practice for the forseeable future. The Zags can pick up some nice pointers and make a nice deep run this year.


Props to Larsen...his size clearly bothered Nova.....and Zack Norvell's fearless play. JW3 is still the starter...but Larsen needs to get fully up to speed by March.

Props to Jay Wright....that is a dam disciplined team right there...they might not win it all...but nobody plays with the IQ they do. They are gonna school a bunch of foes this year. Hopefully they are nowhere near our bracket come March.

Zag4Hire
12-05-2017, 07:18 PM
Lots of tape is right.

Nova has to be the most fundamentally solid team I've seen play this year. They do so many things well....this wasn't the Zags having a bad game...this was just a victory by the superior team. I really think this is a good loss....The film of this game needs to mandatory viewing at practice for the forseeable future. The Zags can pick up some nice pointers and make a nice deep run this year.


Props to Larsen...his size clearly bothered Nova.....and Zack Norvell's fearless play. JW3 is still the starter...but Larsen needs to get fully up to speed by March.

Props to Jay Wright....that is a dam disciplined team right there...they might not win it all...but nobody plays with the IQ they do. They are gonna school a bunch of foes this year. Hopefully they are nowhere near our bracket come March.

Respectfully disagree with every single point you are attempting to make. The Zags did not play well whatsoever. If you witnessed any effort to date, you could clearly see there was no offensive rhythm and a lot of missed opportunities. I think Nova just took what the Zags gave them but a solid effort similar to the PK80 game vs Florida, would have made the game real close if not outright in GU's favor. There was no post presence by Nova and GU should have sought the advantage there but it wasn't well connected. The 3 pt defense or lack thereof once again betrayed them. Hard to hear me utter it but the refs helped out GU quite a bit tonight I believe and if they played like this against Texas or Creighton, they would have more losses.

Let's stop pretending this is the same team as last year but a different team with potentially different strengths. This team will force tempo regardless apparently whether it benefits them or not. One upside is the future is bright for Norvell Jr. He has a nose for the offensive side of things and it will only get better.

VinnyZag
12-05-2017, 07:20 PM
Villanova is really good, and they played probably their best game of the year. They actually reminded me a bit of last year's Zags.

I think his sorta game is to be expected a little with this years Zags. Hopefully they learn from it.

Killian Tillie is their best player, in my opinion.

thespywhozaggedme
12-05-2017, 07:26 PM
I've been saying it since the beginning and I'm sticking to it. Larsen is a better Shem and ZN is a better Gary Bell. This potential starting lineup next year: Perk, ZN, CK, Clarke and Larsen will be sick.

jim77
12-05-2017, 07:38 PM
I'll respectfully disagree back...headfakes?....Nova crashing the boards and getting into the correct positioning ta boot. We played Novas game....and there was little we could do about it. Do we have a good team..Absolutely. We want no part of them....you may have just witnessed the next NC....yes they are as good as they looked...that's why we looked so bad. Another team might out athlete them...but they won't out think them. We aren't that close to them fundamentally. It was so bad at the end that we got breakaway steals and didn't even get a shot up. The one thing I will add...Tillie needs to quit picking up stupid fouls...we need him on the court....its happening way to much. I think Kispert would have help cause hes fearless like Norvell.

katman50
12-05-2017, 07:40 PM
The past couple games or so, have been "coming out parties" for Norvell and Larsen. Those guys stepped up tonight. Zach might be a gem in the making. Missed Corey, but glad he didn't play. If he would have, wouldn't have made much of a difference in the final score. Still have faith in Tillie, Josh and JW3. Rui has to slow things down and determine what he can and can't do. Love this team. They should only get better, shouldn't they? Hats off to Nova. A very good team with a great coach.

LongIslandZagFan
12-05-2017, 07:49 PM
Just throwing this out there... Zags were clanking shots in warm-ups... especially going into the second half. I knew it was going to be trouble. From my vantage point I felt they got some good open looks, but as I said to someone at the game (UConn fan in front of me) Zags just plain "shot themselves out of it". No patience in the first half... got quick shots off and clanked nearly all of them and basically handed Nova a 12 point lead... a lead they never relinquished.

TexasZagFan
12-05-2017, 07:52 PM
Just throwing this out there... Zags were clanking shots in warm-ups... especially going into the second half. I knew it was going to be trouble. From my vantage point I felt they got some good open looks, but as I said to someone at the game (UConn fan in front of me) Zags just plain "shot themselves out of it". No patience in the first half... got quick shots off and clanked nearly all of them and basically handed Nova a 12 point lead... a lead they never relinquished.

Let's not forget the 12 turnovers in the first half, either. Just can't do that against an average team, let alone a team like Villanova.

MDABE80
12-05-2017, 08:00 PM
Flex said "Zags lack an on-court leader to calm guys down, make the right plays, stop the frantic play that resulted in so many turnovers" .

I might add direct the play of the team overall. To run the offense and not make a whole series of boneheaded plays.

I'm not going to begin a big fuss but this is a big part what a PG does. PG may or may not score a lot but he's the quarterback, runs the offense, sets the tempo.
PPG, steals, etc just don't ever tell the story. Pangos? Yes. Nigel? Of course. Josh...nope We need a PG and just don't have one. It's nothing personal. It's how a team is managed. The Creighton game was won by an up tempo group of shooters who rebounded well but played lock down defense in the 2nd half. Josh had little to do with that win.

Nonetheless, Josh is doing what Josh does. I do think he's trying hard to be the best player he can be but PG is just not his best position.
This will happen again mostly against the more high end opponents. I think we'll blow through the WCC....maybe split with SMC and maybe lose an unexpected game. In the WCC , a team like ours can get away with a lot with lesser opponents.......things that Nova will simply capitalize on. We were killed on national TV tonight. TO be clear, we have the talent to beat Villanova....just not tonight and not like this.
This team is still in development and is a young, inexperienced team. Norvell, Larsen, Kispert, young, learning and are getting better.
A leader and director of the team on court is what we really need.

Plainsman
12-05-2017, 08:05 PM
We have to accept a few things, I think:

1) Josh is a good point guard but is likely never going to be an elite point guard. Some nights he will be on and some nights not so on.
2) JWIII is going to be superb some nights, very good on others and will likely disappear in a few scattered games, like he did tonight.
3) Jacob is showing signs he could be a really good center with some more experience.
4) Against elite teams, the whole club has a ways to go, but room for significant improvement is still there, especially with Zach and Rui and hopefully more consistency from Tillie, JWIII and Josh.

We got to see what a top four team plays like, especially on a virtual home court and New York is a long way for this still developing team to travel and show at the top of their game. I still don't think it's time to panic or get hysterical.

TacomaZAG
12-05-2017, 08:15 PM
Well.............that was embarrassing, nothing quite like coughing up a big 'ol hairball on national TV.

As has been said numerous times in this thread, lots to learn from. However, this was by far our best chance to leave a positive impression on east coast BB pundits, and NCAA Tournament selection committee members in that part of the Country (even with a loss). I believe we will be good enough (record, RPI, etc.) to earn a protected seed (1-4) in the dance, but we failed the eye test horribly tonight. That bad taste in the mouth's of east coast selection committee members will come back to haunt the guys on Selection Sunday.

19 TO's is simply unacceptable, with 12 in the first half. While a few were due to Nova pressure and athleticism, most of them were the result of sloppy play and bad mental decisions, same reason as the 24 TO's against Texas. We are simply not going to beat a top 15 team with that many TO's. That is the single thing that needs to be fixed, IMHO. Now, since we don't play anyone of that caliber for the rest of the season, the TO's will take a back seat to other things, as will the ZAGS in the minds of east coast selection committee members. Physically, we have the horses for another run, and the effort is there, but the mental toughness isn't there yet.

On the bright side, the guys got it to a 7 point game with about 16:00 remaining, plus a couple of other times prior to or around the 10:00 mark. However, they threw up on themselves each and every time after getting within striking distance.

Unfortunately, the guys squandered a golden opportunity tonight, not just for a Top 10 ranking, but to remain relevant in the discussion for a protected seed in the dance.

Go ZAGS

Ezag
12-05-2017, 10:11 PM
Zags got stomped. GU is not a top10 team as some were proclaiming the last few games

Zags11
12-05-2017, 10:31 PM
Got outclassed. From top to the bottom. No hustle, no fire, Nada to be honest. Got our butts kicked. Slapped up.

Larsen, norvell and Perkins at times did well. Nobody else IMO. Maybe Silas? Tillie was terrible. Played pretty soft IMO. Jw3? Nada. Rui? Didn't look like he belonged.

Its one game tho. It happens. On to UW.

whatazag
12-05-2017, 10:32 PM
Nova is better, not really much you can say.

I don't know where the ZN love is coming from. He is good attacking the basket, but that the extent of his elite skills.

No problem with how Perk played, except that the layup he threw away. He has shown many times since having his face broken that he is gun-shy on drives to the basket, and that was a key example. Btw I swear that went off the nova player.

Larson was way better than J3, I think depending on the type of game it is Few should let Larsen play more minutes.

Melson very solid, can't ask much more of him.

Jones should play over Rui in games like this where the opposing team is disciplined and skilled. But Jones fouls constantly, so he will foul out within about 15 mins.

Zags11
12-05-2017, 10:32 PM
Really could have used NWG in this one. Turnovers killed us and just couldnít keep pace with the physicality of Nova. They dictated the pace of the game. Chalk it up as a bad game. However, this game along with a Texas debacle has me thinking there are things that need to be fixed if GU is going to get past the elite teams.

We could of but goss left. He is the past.

Zag Man
12-05-2017, 10:37 PM
Zags lost to a better team that also played better. Itís been a long time since any team did this to Gonzaga.

The Zags have lost games before, but it has been a while since they were outclassed like they were tonight. It looked to me like the guys were out of sync for most of the game and very weak with the ball. Turnovers just killed us! The game was disappointing for me, since this was such a big game, on a big stage, and on national television and we really didn't show up. I really feel badly for the kids, but they also have to take responsibility for how they played this game and their individual efforts while playing in it. I'm hoping this will wake the team up and make them realize that they need to play with toughness and determination for every game, since everyone is going to give us their very best shot. We are Gonzaga, but the other teams are not going to fold their tents and give us the wins because of the name on our jersey. We really have to earn every victory.

Zags11
12-05-2017, 10:38 PM
Zags got stomped. GU is not a top10 team as some were proclaiming the last few games

Not much positive stuff to take from this game. Larsen and norvell? We were so sloppy and nova was just great.

Skimhvn
12-05-2017, 10:44 PM
Rui's traveling was obviously not traveling.

MDABE80
12-06-2017, 12:22 AM
Reviewing the whole thing Zags lost with sloppy uninspired play. We got beat with 3's and TO's. Our TO's which led to lots of points for Nova.
Maybe the guys were intimidated. Who knows???? but our usual solid kids weren't so solid. Don't get me wrong guys, Nova's very good. SO are we though.
With another 3 months under our belt, I'd be happy to meet them again. We made them look good. We made ourselves look bad. We were within 7 pts in the second half but couldn't sustain a comeback due to our terrible 3 pt defense and horrid rate of TO's. Correct those and we're in it.

If you looked at Nova's structure, they weren't really that different from us. They play a Princeton offense and often there's 4 guards and one big. Not happy about the loss but when we eliminate the TO's and boneheaded plays, we'll be as strong as we were prior to Nova. Our PG situation is going to remain what it is. Only hope is that we work around that. I'm sure Few can.
Defense is always key in college basketball. Right now, we're not doing a good job on D. Over the years, we've had D problems off and on, but if Few makes the kids focus on that, we should be fine.

We have good veterans and I've not seen so many very good Frosh, redshirt or not.

GonzagasaurusFlex
12-06-2017, 01:48 AM
Nova is better, not really much you can say.

I don't know where the ZN love is coming from. He is good attacking the basket, but that the extent of his elite skills.

No problem with how Perk played, except that the layup he threw away. He has shown many times since having his face broken that he is gun-shy on drives to the basket, and that was a key example. Btw I swear that went off the nova player.

Larson was way better than J3, I think depending on the type of game it is Few should let Larsen play more minutes.

Melson very solid, can't ask much more of him.

Jones should play over Rui in games like this where the opposing team is disciplined and skilled. But Jones fouls constantly, so he will foul out within about 15 mins.

Agree with all of the above with big exception of Perkins. He shot 1-7 from 3 and had 5 TO’s. I’m a fan of JP and think he’s a great Zag, but besides those poor stats (which I’m sure he himself has a problem with) he never seemed to command his team from the PG position. For example, announcers pointed out several times when ‘Nova would switch leaving Brunson guarding Larsen (or some other mismatch) but Zags never got him the ball. Some of that is due to great D on the ballhandler and not allowing him to see the pass, but recognition and exploitation of those kinds of mismatches is what a coach needs from his PG... or some on-court leader. Zags didn’t get that on court leadership from anyone.

Norvell drew some charges on D and had bright moments, but he caused at least one foul on Tillie when his man blew by him so Tillie tried to help. Not certain but when the game taps gets looked at I bet on the whole ZN had more negatives (missed rotations, failed blockouts, beat off the bounce etc) than positives defensively. I’ll be a lot more excited about ZN when he plays better D and knocks down shots early in the game during pressure packed moments.

JP, Tillie, Williams with 5,4,3 turnovers respectively. Ouch.

You can implore a team to play smarter but can you coach a team to do so?

Zagger
12-06-2017, 03:21 AM
Here are the numbers ...
http://www.fowlplaces.com/zags/Stats120517.png

J3's stats just do not look like J3. The early fouls sure hurt his court time when the team needed him. No rebounds. What I do like here though is J3's continued efforts at the FT line. The team as a whole is improving on that end.
Tillie, Melson and Perks just did not shoot well. Perks being the team leader on rebounds ..... ??? A telling stat for this game.
Norvell's numbers look pretty good excepting zero assists.
Rui shot well ..... I feel that the overall off-their-game-ness of the team got Rui well off his mark.
Jones .... he surely tried getting GU back in it with an OREB and a steal.
Larsen looked pretty good. Wade wasn't in very long but at least got a shot off.

Now that it's the next day .... I suspect this will be the worst game the Zags play all year. One thing this team does do pretty well is to learn from their experiences. This was the team's first longer trip. Up until last night they've only played in Spokane and Portland. The overall outcome makes it look like they didn't travel well - as the stats just do not look like this team.

avid-zag-fan
12-06-2017, 03:26 AM
nova is number 1 in Kenpom. we dropped from 11 to 13. seems about right at this point. Last year we were 8 deep without drop off in play. this year we are 4 deep without Cory. I think we get close to 8 deep but maybe February. ZN needs to watch Hoosiers: 3 passes before a shot. We are a great 3 pt shooting team--sometimes, but consistency is a problem. We don't have a player that can carry the offense, so I think trust the system and our offense would be fine and the TO's go down. Less is more in this case. Our defense is Kenpom 26 but it's a work in progress but I think we can get it to maybe 16th by march.

jazzdelmar
12-06-2017, 04:04 AM
IIRC, GU was up when Few took Tils out with one foul. Nova went up. Don't think we ever really got back in the game after that. That puzzled me tho its was obviously way early.

kitzbuel
12-06-2017, 04:11 AM
https://d2gk7xgygi98cy.cloudfront.net/1116-3-large.jpg


19 of them.

I know Nova's pressure led to a lot of them, but there were some silly ones at really bad times. Big part of why we could not get momentum.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

stretch
12-06-2017, 05:48 AM
The Zags need to call upon their G League affiliate and get some help at point guard, fast!

Seriously, pressure defence exposes this Zags team's achilles heel.

strikenowhere
12-06-2017, 05:51 AM
Was at the game last night - what a disappointment. Everything that could go wrong, did go wrong:

- Fouls, fouls, fouls: Williams & Tillie picking up 2 fouls in the first half was rough enough, but than Wiliams to start the 2nd half picking up #3 & #4 was just boneheaded
- Honestly, I don't know why people keep hyping up Hachimura
- 3 pt defense: it felt like the Zags have reverted to the general mean of 3 pt defense over the years, which is to say there isn't any. Last year was a complete aberration.
- What is up with Norvell's streakiness? He went 4-8 from downtown, but most of his makes came with 10 min left in the game when it was pretty much already decided
- Perkins had 38 minutes and Melson had 37...what the hell happens if they gets in foul trouble? Wade is at the end of the bench (albeit probably due to shoulder/lack of practice time)
- They desperately missed Kispert
- Phantom Defender Syndrome!

Finally, this is the stereotypical tough-nosed East Coast team pounding up a West Coast team.

bartruff1
12-06-2017, 05:57 AM
Norvell is a scorer...he has a quick trigger and he is hunting shots....I am sure there must be some others, but I can only think that the last player Gonzaga had with that mindset was Morrison....

The expectations of some on the board for Rue and Wade have been unrealistic....

scrooner
12-06-2017, 06:11 AM
Quoting myself from another thread:

"The blueprint against the Zags seems to be to double Josh early and double JWIII late to disrupt the O and get easy turnovers. Will the Zags be able to fix it in time?"

"I don't see us winning this game if Perkins and JWIII go 6 for 16 with 9 turnovers like they did against Creighton. Villanova is 2nd & 6th in KenPom's adjusted O and D. Creighton is 19th and 74th."

Perkins and JWIII combined for 5 for 18 with 8 turnovers. I wouldn't have guessed that they'd actually do worse...

SWZag
12-06-2017, 06:26 AM
As others shared in game thread, it really looked like Zags never believed they could win.

Multiple times on the radio broadcast, Morrison mentioned that Villanova players were excited, slapping hands, getting into the game and GU had nothing of the sort. Sounds like they didn't have any push or drive to get into the game, even though they couldn't play much worse. For the way GU played, I don't see how Villanova completely blow the doors off us. If we played even close to what we're capable of, the results would have been different.


It's one game, at least we didn't lose to BYU at home, a team like that could never make it to the National Championship game.

Learn some lessons and move on, lots of season yet to play.

Agree. A month ago we had no idea how good / bad this team would be. We now know more, and for me, it's a team that will come into itself and be really good by tourney time. This game was against #4 Villanova, a superb team, not rankless ABC University. We have a lot to work on and Villanova clearly pointed those things out. Lets get to work fixing those things and continue getting better.

willandi
12-06-2017, 06:34 AM
Gonzaga got beat, we all agree on that. I seem to have perceived things differently.

The Zags didn't defend the three particularly well, but Nova hit their season average, no more. Zags didn't limit turnovers or shoot well, and yet...

The unforced turnovers were telling to me, breakaways and losing the ball out the end. There must have been 4-5 totally unforced turnovers, not steals, just misplays. That, in and of itself, has to be a 6-8-10 point swing.

Zags shot the 3 at what seemed like a seasons worst, 6-22. If the made 3 more, they were close to season average and that's another 6-9 points.

Defensive rebounds leading to second chance points for Nova allowed them extra scoring. Much was while in the zone, and that is the weakness of the zone, so don't know what could be done there.

What I saw was Gonzaga giving away 12-20 points, all the while abandoning the game that was getting Nova into foul trouble. They should be sharks in the water and go after those next fouls.

I REALLY dislike the call that if a defensive player takes the fake that an offensive player can initiate the contact and be fouled. I know it has been called that way forever, but it is wrong. Still Zags need to not react to the fake as much.

Just my opinion, and let's kick some Hec Ed butt!

strikenowhere
12-06-2017, 06:41 AM
Multiple times on the radio broadcast, Morrison mentioned that Villanova players were excited, slapping hands, getting into the game and GU had nothing of the sort. Sounds like they didn't have any push or drive to get into the game, even though they couldn't play much worse.


Agreed - even in the pre-game warmups they just looked completely lackadaisical while Nova was full of energy.

rennis
12-06-2017, 06:48 AM
You can analyze it any which-way you want, but this game came down to two things: Execution and athleticism. Villanova executed their game plan and had better athletes at almost every position. If it weren't for foul trouble on a few of their key guys this could have been even worse.

Bridges is a beast. We don't have anyone like him on our team. Or really on the schedule the rest of the way.

This game definitely separated the men from the boys. We're still a top 20 team, but the difference between a top 5 and top 20 team this year is proving to be vast. Such is life! Still going to be a good year. Onto Washington!

Birddog
12-06-2017, 06:57 AM
Norvell is a scorer...he has a quick trigger and he is hunting shots....I am sure there must be some others, but I can only think that the last player Gonzaga had with that mindset was Morrison....

The expectations of some on the board for Rue and Wade have been unrealistic....

Norvell started off cold but finished 8/12, 4/8, and 2/2, that's pretty good. I'm pretty sure he has the "green light" to shoot because Fewie didn't give him the hook. I thought at least once he shot a little early in the clock but heck, he was wide open. I'd like to see him tighten up his "D", but overall he is playing pretty good. I'd give him a B- for last night. Rui was lost on offense and defense last night and when he left the game he looked pretty discouraged. Wade looks like a Smurf out there, I hope he can shoot lights out.
I'd give Larsen a B+ and Melson a B, every one else needs to put in some extra work to pass. I cringed every time Josh picked up his dribble that has to be corrected.

Reborn
12-06-2017, 06:59 AM
That Zag team I saw playing last night was perhaps the worst Gonzaga team I've ever seen play. In fact if the name Gonzaga had not been on the jerseys that the players wore I would not have thought that that was a Gonzaga team. What I have come to know about Gonzaga is that they have had great offense, and elite point guards and post players. This team has become notorious for turning the ball over, slipping and stumbling all over the court, committing one charging call after another, throwing up stupid, selfish shots. And most of all a horrible passing team. A typical Gonzaga team exhibits great passing, and unselfish play. This is the most selfish Gonzaga team I've ever seen. Neither Josh nor JWIII look like Gonzaga players to me. I am most shocked by their play. Outside of the Florida game they have looked like someone else all year. How can anyone say that we have a good point guard when ours keeps turning the ball over 5 and six times a game. He had five last night, and could have had eight. A couple of passes he threw should have been intercepted. If Josh and JWIII can become good offensive players, players that we're used to seeing on Gonzaga's teams, than we do have a chance at the end of the season. But they must get much better.

I'm tired of seeing Tillie pick up his first foul in the first couple of minutes of every game and sitting on the bench. It completely ruins everything. If I were coaching I'd have him sit on the bench and not start him. I'd start Larsen and JWIII. Move JW back to his old position that he played last year. Larsen has the ability to get him the ball where he likes to receive it and score.

I really don't like how Norvell plays defense, but he is young. I think he is trying hard. He picks up charges which means he does have toughness in him. He just seems to be out of position all of the time, especially in the zone. I think he is learning more and more about the offense, and is improving. He certainly has a lot of talent. He's been our best offensive player in the two toughest games so far this year. I think for him to have played that well in MSG is just remarkable for red shirt freshman.

I feel the same way about Larsen, but maybe even more so. He does look like a Zag, and plays the low post beautifully. He played outstanding against perhaps the best team in the country. I see no reason to not start him. He is much better than JWIII at that position. Much better. Larsen will not be intimidated by any UW player.

I've also kind of given up on Rui. He had no idea about what he needed to do last night. He didn't look like a D-1 player in any way.

Melson is Melson. I love how he plays. He's really the only outstanding defender we have right now. Melson and Larsen appear to me to be the only players trying to run the offense the way it's designed to be run.

Jones is no Mike Hart.

I look forward to seeing Kispert back on the court. He also knows how to play like a Zag. In my opinion he would have made some difference last night. I'm not saying that we would have won. I'm just saying that the Zags play better when he's in the game, and he HAS the size to play with Elite teams.

jazzdelmar
12-06-2017, 07:02 AM
That Zag team I saw playing last night was perhaps the worst Gonzaga team I've ever seen play. In fact if the name Gonzaga had not been on the jerseys that the players wore I would not have thought that that was a Gonzaga team. What I have come to know about Gonzaga is that that they have had great offense, and elite point guards and post plaers. This team has become notorious for turning the ball over, slipping and stumbling all over the court, committing one charging call after another, throwing up stupid, selfish shots. This is the most selfish Gonzaga team I've ever seen. Neither Josh nor JWIII look like Gonzaga players to me. I am most shocked by their play. Outside of the Florida they have looked like someone else all year. How can anyone say that we have a good point guard when ours keeps turning the ball over 5 and six times a game. He had five last night, and could have had eight. A couple of passes he threw should have been intercepted. If Josh and JWIII can become good offensive players, players that we're used to seeing on Gonzaga's teams, than we do have a chance at the end of the season. But they must get much better.

I'm tired of seeing Tillie pick up his first foul in the first couple of minutes of every game and sitting on the bench. It completely ruins everything. If I were coaching I'd have him sit on the bench and not start him. I'd start Larsen and JWIII. Move JW back to his old position that he played last year. Larsen has the ability to get him the ball where he likes to receive it and score.

I really don't like how Norvell plays defense, but he is young. I think he is trying hard. He picks up charges which means he does have toughness in him. He just seems to be out of position all of the time, especially in the zone. I think he is learning more and more about the offense, and is improving. He certainly has a lot of talent. He's been our best offensive player in the two toughest games so far this year. I think for him to have played that well in MSG is just remarkable for red shirt freshman.

I feel the same way about Larsen, but maybe even more so. He does look like a Zag, and plays the low post beautifully. He played outstanding against perhaps the best team in the country. I see no reason to not start him. He is much better than JWIII at that position. Much better. Larsen will not be intimidated by any UW player.

I've also kind of given up on Rui. He had no idea about what he needed to do last night. He didn't look like a D-1 player in any way.

Melson is Melson. I love how he plays. He's really the only outstanding defender we have right now. Melson and Larsen appear to me to be the only players trying to run the offense the way it's designed to be run.

Jones is no Mike Hart.

Fabulous post, Bornie......

jazzdelmar
12-06-2017, 07:06 AM
Agreed - even in the pre-game warmups they just looked completely lackadaisical while Nova was full of energy.

That's unforgivable...

Reborn
12-06-2017, 07:15 AM
Fabulous post, Bornie......

Ha ha ha ha ha. Yeah, Jazz. I 'm tired of trying to be nice, and abandoning my truest self. The main problem that this teams has and may have when the tournaments begin, is that we really don't have leadership, nor do we have a player who can out shoot, out score any team the Zags play. Few needs to step up and coach. He needs to make the changes that this team needs. Put JW3 back where he belongs. He's not going to be an NBA PLAYER. Keep Tillie on the bench so he doesn't pick up his first foul so early, which really hurts the team. I think I'd move Melson to the point and put Josh back at the two.

jazzdelmar
12-06-2017, 07:22 AM
Ha ha ha ha ha. Yeah, Jazz. I 'm tired of trying to be nice, and abandoning my truest self. The main problem that this teams has and may have when the tournaments begin, is that we really don't have leadership, nor do we have a player who can out shoot, out score any team the Zags play. Few needs to step up and coach. He needs to make the changes that this team needs. Put JW3 back where he belongs. He's not going to be an NBA PLAYER. Keep Tillie on the bench so he doesn't pick up his first foul so early, which really hurts the team. I think I'd move Melson to the point and put Josh back at the two.

If they continue to play like last night, agree shuffle the deck. The worst of last night is they either were unprepared by the staff, spooked by the stage or the opponent, or didn't give a ...... Or some combo of those. Long plane ride back I am sure. Only Larson, Norvell and Melson came to play. JP was playing like a crazed person, and not in a good way. Flailing and misstepping, easily could have had 10 TOs. And, by the way, the refs favored us quite a bit.

sittingon50
12-06-2017, 07:23 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcLazPauA1c

bartruff1
12-06-2017, 07:33 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcLazPauA1c

Now that is funny....we have a great coach and I am quite sure he will keep sawing wood ...and things will improve...

SWZag
12-06-2017, 08:07 AM
Now that is funny....we have a great coach and I am quite sure he will keep sawing wood ...and things will improve...

It must be hard being a coach in this day and age. Today, people (generally) expect instant perfection and only see the here and now. Coaching and improving players isn't done overnight or during a game. It's a long process that must be done right.

We have the best coaching and support staff and I wouldn't trade them for another staff in the country. It's a process, and yesterday was just another cog in the wheel to moving forward and getting better. Learn from mistakes and move on.

bballbeachbum
12-06-2017, 08:37 AM
at halftime there were 4 Zags with 2 turnovers each...4. It was team wide

I credit Nova BIG TIME for schooling the Zags on pressure intimidation d. Zags broke that pressure numerous times only to shoot themselves in the foot on the finish, rushing open shots, both in the paint and on the 3 point line. Thought most Zags adjusted to the tempo but too little too late for this game.

on JIII and the double team, when he does kick it back out the Zags usually look pretty good

Zagceo
12-06-2017, 08:38 AM
55 turnovers for 3 starters in the last 5 games (excluding Incarnate)

This is more like a trend than aberration.

Scary part we won 3 of the 5....

bballbeachbum
12-06-2017, 08:42 AM
55 turnovers for 3 starters in the last 5 games (excluding Incarnate)

This is more like a trend than aberration.

Scary part we won 3 of the 5....

good point. and against a team like Nova who can't wait to do it to you, it got ugly

demian
12-06-2017, 08:45 AM
That Zag team I saw playing last night was perhaps the worst Gonzaga team I've ever seen play. In fact if the name Gonzaga had not been on the jerseys that the players wore I would not have thought that that was a Gonzaga team. What I have come to know about Gonzaga is that they have had great offense, and elite point guards and post players. This team has become notorious for turning the ball over, slipping and stumbling all over the court, committing one charging call after another, throwing up stupid, selfish shots. And most of all a horrible passing team. A typical Gonzaga team exhibits great passing, and unselfish play. This is the most selfish Gonzaga team I've ever seen. Neither Josh nor JWIII look like Gonzaga players to me. I am most shocked by their play. Outside of the Florida game they have looked like someone else all year. How can anyone say that we have a good point guard when ours keeps turning the ball over 5 and six times a game. He had five last night, and could have had eight. A couple of passes he threw should have been intercepted. If Josh and JWIII can become good offensive players, players that we're used to seeing on Gonzaga's teams, than we do have a chance at the end of the season. But they must get much better.

I'm tired of seeing Tillie pick up his first foul in the first couple of minutes of every game and sitting on the bench. It completely ruins everything. If I were coaching I'd have him sit on the bench and not start him. I'd start Larsen and JWIII. Move JW back to his old position that he played last year. Larsen has the ability to get him the ball where he likes to receive it and score.

I really don't like how Norvell plays defense, but he is young. I think he is trying hard. He picks up charges which means he does have toughness in him. He just seems to be out of position all of the time, especially in the zone. I think he is learning more and more about the offense, and is improving. He certainly has a lot of talent. He's been our best offensive player in the two toughest games so far this year. I think for him to have played that well in MSG is just remarkable for red shirt freshman.

I feel the same way about Larsen, but maybe even more so. He does look like a Zag, and plays the low post beautifully. He played outstanding against perhaps the best team in the country. I see no reason to not start him. He is much better than JWIII at that position. Much better. Larsen will not be intimidated by any UW player.

I've also kind of given up on Rui. He had no idea about what he needed to do last night. He didn't look like a D-1 player in any way.

Melson is Melson. I love how he plays. He's really the only outstanding defender we have right now. Melson and Larsen appear to me to be the only players trying to run the offense the way it's designed to be run.

Jones is no Mike Hart.

I look forward to seeing Kispert back on the court. He also knows how to play like a Zag. In my opinion he would have made some difference last night. I'm not saying that we would have won. I'm just saying that the Zags play better when he's in the game, and he HAS the size to play with Elite teams.


Perfectly said Reborn. ON EVERY POINT YOU MADE

demian
12-06-2017, 08:46 AM
Ha ha ha ha ha. Yeah, Jazz. I 'm tired of trying to be nice, and abandoning my truest self. The main problem that this teams has and may have when the tournaments begin, is that we really don't have leadership, nor do we have a player who can out shoot, out score any team the Zags play. Few needs to step up and coach. He needs to make the changes that this team needs. Put JW3 back where he belongs. He's not going to be an NBA PLAYER. Keep Tillie on the bench so he doesn't pick up his first foul so early, which really hurts the team. I think I'd move Melson to the point and put Josh back at the two.

Haha good to have the true reborn back.

demian
12-06-2017, 08:47 AM
That's unforgivable...

Agreed!!!

DixieZag
12-06-2017, 09:18 AM
It must be hard being a coach in this day and age. Today, people (generally) expect instant perfection and only see the here and now. Coaching and improving players isn't done overnight or during a game. It's a long process that must be done right.

We have the best coaching and support staff and I wouldn't trade them for another staff in the country. It's a process, and yesterday was just another cog in the wheel to moving forward and getting better. Learn from mistakes and move on.

I wouldn't trade our coaching staff for any in the country, either, but they had a terrible game themselves.

Everyone watching the game on the game thread saw the lack of effort, the lack of urgency, the leaderlessness - Where were the time outs in the first half as they lead started to edge up? Where were the adjustments in that period?

I'm not saying that the coaches should've "won it" for us, but I kept waiting for a timeout to see Few challenging some guys' manhoods, asking if they were there to compete at all.

I wasn't in the huddle, so perhaps some stuff was said. But, we've all seen timeouts made where a different team comes out of the huddle, one with spines erect, eyes narrowed, pace quickened - i didn't see any of that, not once.

Worse, given that we didn't seem interested in playing basketball, I am worried about what we were interested in, and worried there might be a chemistry problem on the team, because I don't know what else keeps you from wanting to play hard on primetime in MSG. They embarrassed themselves, not by play, but by effort and attitude.

And now, the East coast won't see us play again until maybe SMC, who has already shown the country that they're not serious.

Robzagnut
12-06-2017, 09:28 AM
That Zag team I saw playing last night was perhaps the worst Gonzaga team I've ever seen play. In fact if the name Gonzaga had not been on the jerseys that the players wore I would not have thought that that was a Gonzaga team. What I have come to know about Gonzaga is that they have had great offense, and elite point guards and post players. This team has become notorious for turning the ball over, slipping and stumbling all over the court, committing one charging call after another, throwing up stupid, selfish shots. And most of all a horrible passing team. A typical Gonzaga team exhibits great passing, and unselfish play. This is the most selfish Gonzaga team I've ever seen. Neither Josh nor JWIII look like Gonzaga players to me. I am most shocked by their play. Outside of the Florida game they have looked like someone else all year. How can anyone say that we have a good point guard when ours keeps turning the ball over 5 and six times a game. He had five last night, and could have had eight. A couple of passes he threw should have been intercepted. If Josh and JWIII can become good offensive players, players that we're used to seeing on Gonzaga's teams, than we do have a chance at the end of the season. But they must get much better.

I'm tired of seeing Tillie pick up his first foul in the first couple of minutes of every game and sitting on the bench. It completely ruins everything. If I were coaching I'd have him sit on the bench and not start him. I'd start Larsen and JWIII. Move JW back to his old position that he played last year. Larsen has the ability to get him the ball where he likes to receive it and score.

I really don't like how Norvell plays defense, but he is young. I think he is trying hard. He picks up charges which means he does have toughness in him. He just seems to be out of position all of the time, especially in the zone. I think he is learning more and more about the offense, and is improving. He certainly has a lot of talent. He's been our best offensive player in the two toughest games so far this year. I think for him to have played that well in MSG is just remarkable for red shirt freshman.

I feel the same way about Larsen, but maybe even more so. He does look like a Zag, and plays the low post beautifully. He played outstanding against perhaps the best team in the country. I see no reason to not start him. He is much better than JWIII at that position. Much better. Larsen will not be intimidated by any UW player.

I've also kind of given up on Rui. He had no idea about what he needed to do last night. He didn't look like a D-1 player in any way.

Melson is Melson. I love how he plays. He's really the only outstanding defender we have right now. Melson and Larsen appear to me to be the only players trying to run the offense the way it's designed to be run.

Jones is no Mike Hart.

I look forward to seeing Kispert back on the court. He also knows how to play like a Zag. In my opinion he would have made some difference last night. I'm not saying that we would have won. I'm just saying that the Zags play better when he's in the game, and he HAS the size to play with Elite teams.


Wake-up call. They needed a kick in the a$$ to show them they need to play better defense and take care of the ball. I would not want to be UW as a lot of that hot mess will be fixed.

Teams have been shown how to handle Josh and JWIII. Luckily, Larsen, Kispert, Rui and Norvell Jr. will get better, and hopefully Wade will get more playing time in WCC play to see if he can handle more PG duties.

Baseline
12-06-2017, 09:51 AM
The Zags looks scared and nervous, they were not ready for the big stage. The turnovers were symptomatic of this. Few needs to work on confidence, but what they need is a true team leader, that just doesn't exist on this team. No one taking charge and settling them down. If it was me I would shake things up a bit, but then I overreact so thankfully its Few's problem.

Zags11
12-06-2017, 09:56 AM
That Zag team I saw playing last night was perhaps the worst Gonzaga team I've ever seen play. In fact if the name Gonzaga had not been on the jerseys that the players wore I would not have thought that that was a Gonzaga team. What I have come to know about Gonzaga is that they have had great offense, and elite point guards and post players. This team has become notorious for turning the ball over, slipping and stumbling all over the court, committing one charging call after another, throwing up stupid, selfish shots. And most of all a horrible passing team. A typical Gonzaga team exhibits great passing, and unselfish play. This is the most selfish Gonzaga team I've ever seen. Neither Josh nor JWIII look like Gonzaga players to me. I am most shocked by their play. Outside of the Florida game they have looked like someone else all year. How can anyone say that we have a good point guard when ours keeps turning the ball over 5 and six times a game. He had five last night, and could have had eight. A couple of passes he threw should have been intercepted. If Josh and JWIII can become good offensive players, players that we're used to seeing on Gonzaga's teams, than we do have a chance at the end of the season. But they must get much better.

I'm tired of seeing Tillie pick up his first foul in the first couple of minutes of every game and sitting on the bench. It completely ruins everything. If I were coaching I'd have him sit on the bench and not start him. I'd start Larsen and JWIII. Move JW back to his old position that he played last year. Larsen has the ability to get him the ball where he likes to receive it and score.

I really don't like how Norvell plays defense, but he is young. I think he is trying hard. He picks up charges which means he does have toughness in him. He just seems to be out of position all of the time, especially in the zone. I think he is learning more and more about the offense, and is improving. He certainly has a lot of talent. He's been our best offensive player in the two toughest games so far this year. I think for him to have played that well in MSG is just remarkable for red shirt freshman.

I feel the same way about Larsen, but maybe even more so. He does look like a Zag, and plays the low post beautifully. He played outstanding against perhaps the best team in the country. I see no reason to not start him. He is much better than JWIII at that position. Much better. Larsen will not be intimidated by any UW player.

I've also kind of given up on Rui. He had no idea about what he needed to do last night. He didn't look like a D-1 player in any way.

Melson is Melson. I love how he plays. He's really the only outstanding defender we have right now. Melson and Larsen appear to me to be the only players trying to run the offense the way it's designed to be run.

Jones is no Mike Hart.

I look forward to seeing Kispert back on the court. He also knows how to play like a Zag. In my opinion he would have made some difference last night. I'm not saying that we would have won. I'm just saying that the Zags play better when he's in the game, and he HAS the size to play with Elite teams.

Lol. I'm sorry. Last nights team would slap the crap out of alot of former zag teams. I would of imagined you of all people would know this. Did they play bad? Yep. Did they struggle? Yep. I can go to past zag teams that were solid and show bad games. I can go even further and show you just horrible zag teams.

Is this a all time great zag team? Maybe and maybe not. I mean we got spanked by Cuse, duke,etc in the past. Villanova is probably a final 4 team. Not every year will the zags have a final 4 team. The team last night would still beat 65% of our former teams on talent alone. You are wrong here.


I agree about some of your other stuff. Perkins has been on and off but dude is shooting 50%+ from 3. Maybe cut turnovers down? Otherwise he is a good offensive shooter so far. 14.4ppg and 50% from 3 with 4.4 assist and 4 RPG. The only poor thing is the 3 turnovers per game however and I'd have to check others before him. (Edit: dickau avg 2.9 turnovers per game at 33mpg. Blake stepp at 3.0 a game at 31mpg and his Jr yr was 3.3 at 35 mpg.) So josh has ball in hands all game and plays same amount as stepp junior year and dickau and stepp averages same turnover per gm. Stepp had 2 more assists but 14% worse from 3.

Jw3? 14.7 and 6.1 and his bad stat is turnovers at 3.1(compare turiaf at 15&9 and with 2.2 turnovers per game. Turiaf 0.9 less turnovers but 8% worse FG shooter) I would like him at #4 spot and I think we will see that this year again.

Rui? Yea he looks lost.

Tillie? Played soft last night. Overall his stats are nice.

Melson? Stud.

Comparing Jones who doesn't get to play and hart is silly. Hart was whatever. Good d and good team chemistry and good guy.

So in short...lol

Is Perkins a stepp or dickau? No. I think they are better. He isn't far off stat and fact wise. What we are getting is opinions. Last nights performance of a team would beat 65% of our old zag teams. And then throw in crap losses by those old zag teams. Portland state? Lol. BYU in down yr? Lol. Go look at 1998-99 team. 2014 team.

Zags11
12-06-2017, 10:04 AM
Ha ha ha ha ha. Yeah, Jazz. I 'm tired of trying to be nice, and abandoning my truest self. The main problem that this teams has and may have when the tournaments begin, is that we really don't have leadership, nor do we have a player who can out shoot, out score any team the Zags play. Few needs to step up and coach. He needs to make the changes that this team needs. Put JW3 back where he belongs. He's not going to be an NBA PLAYER. Keep Tillie on the bench so he doesn't pick up his first foul so early, which really hurts the team. I think I'd move Melson to the point and put Josh back at the two.

99% of zags aren't on NBA roster. Why didn't we bench stepp or gray or goss?

I mean goss wasn't NBA.

Zags11
12-06-2017, 10:05 AM
I wouldn't trade our coaching staff for any in the country, either, but they had a terrible game themselves.

Everyone watching the game on the game thread saw the lack of effort, the lack of urgency, the leaderlessness - Where were the time outs in the first half as they lead started to edge up? Where were the adjustments in that period?

I'm not saying that the coaches should've "won it" for us, but I kept waiting for a timeout to see Few challenging some guys' manhoods, asking if they were there to compete at all.

I wasn't in the huddle, so perhaps some stuff was said. But, we've all seen timeouts made where a different team comes out of the huddle, one with spines erect, eyes narrowed, pace quickened - i didn't see any of that, not once.

Worse, given that we didn't seem interested in playing basketball, I am worried about what we were interested in, and worried there might be a chemistry problem on the team, because I don't know what else keeps you from wanting to play hard on primetime in MSG. They embarrassed themselves, not by play, but by effort and attitude.

And now, the East coast won't see us play again until maybe SMC, who has already shown the country that they're not serious.

The coaching was sub par last night as well.

GonzagasaurusFlex
12-06-2017, 10:36 AM
I wouldn't trade our coaching staff for any in the country, either, but they had a terrible game themselves.

Everyone watching the game on the game thread saw the lack of effort, the lack of urgency, the leaderlessness - Where were the time outs in the first half as they lead started to edge up? Where were the adjustments in that period?

I'm not saying that the coaches should've "won it" for us, but I kept waiting for a timeout to see Few challenging some guys' manhoods, asking if they were there to compete at all.

I wasn't in the huddle, so perhaps some stuff was said. But, we've all seen timeouts made where a different team comes out of the huddle, one with spines erect, eyes narrowed, pace quickened - i didn't see any of that, not once.

Worse, given that we didn't seem interested in playing basketball, I am worried about what we were interested in, and worried there might be a chemistry problem on the team, because I don't know what else keeps you from wanting to play hard on primetime in MSG. They embarrassed themselves, not by play, but by effort and attitude.

And now, the East coast won't see us play again until maybe SMC, who has already shown the country that they're not serious.

Spot on Dixie; thank you! Of course itís just one game, long season for Zags to learn from this and improve, prior Zag teams have had poor losses too etc etc.

Whatís so alarming and worrisome isnít the fact the Zags lost to a great Villanova team, itís that they did not appear mentally prepared for their biggest regular season game of the year: MSG vs #4 team w national tv audience. Now I guess we have to just wait and see how they do in next biggest game of the season....NCAA Round 1 or perhaps WCC tourney.

Can mental toughness and b-ball IQ be taught? I sure hope so.

willandi
12-06-2017, 10:38 AM
The coaching was sub par last night as well.

Birdies? Is that what you are saying?

BULLDOG#1
12-06-2017, 11:17 AM
That Zag team I saw playing last night was perhaps the worst Gonzaga team I've ever seen play. In fact if the name Gonzaga had not been on the jerseys that the players wore I would not have thought that that was a Gonzaga team. What I have come to know about Gonzaga is that they have had great offense, and elite point guards and post players. This team has become notorious for turning the ball over, slipping and stumbling all over the court, committing one charging call after another, throwing up stupid, selfish shots. And most of all a horrible passing team. A typical Gonzaga team exhibits great passing, and unselfish play. This is the most selfish Gonzaga team I've ever seen. Neither Josh nor JWIII look like Gonzaga players to me. I am most shocked by their play. Outside of the Florida game they have looked like someone else all year. How can anyone say that we have a good point guard when ours keeps turning the ball over 5 and six times a game. He had five last night, and could have had eight. A couple of passes he threw should have been intercepted. If Josh and JWIII can become good offensive players, players that we're used to seeing on Gonzaga's teams, than we do have a chance at the end of the season. But they must get much better.

I'm tired of seeing Tillie pick up his first foul in the first couple of minutes of every game and sitting on the bench. It completely ruins everything. If I were coaching I'd have him sit on the bench and not start him. I'd start Larsen and JWIII. Move JW back to his old position that he played last year. Larsen has the ability to get him the ball where he likes to receive it and score.

I really don't like how Norvell plays defense, but he is young. I think he is trying hard. He picks up charges which means he does have toughness in him. He just seems to be out of position all of the time, especially in the zone. I think he is learning more and more about the offense, and is improving. He certainly has a lot of talent. He's been our best offensive player in the two toughest games so far this year. I think for him to have played that well in MSG is just remarkable for red shirt freshman.

I feel the same way about Larsen, but maybe even more so. He does look like a Zag, and plays the low post beautifully. He played outstanding against perhaps the best team in the country. I see no reason to not start him. He is much better than JWIII at that position. Much better. Larsen will not be intimidated by any UW player.

I've also kind of given up on Rui. He had no idea about what he needed to do last night. He didn't look like a D-1 player in any way.

Melson is Melson. I love how he plays. He's really the only outstanding defender we have right now. Melson and Larsen appear to me to be the only players trying to run the offense the way it's designed to be run.

Jones is no Mike Hart.

I look forward to seeing Kispert back on the court. He also knows how to play like a Zag. In my opinion he would have made some difference last night. I'm not saying that we would have won. I'm just saying that the Zags play better when he's in the game, and he HAS the size to play with Elite teams.

Well, maybe I'm the minority here, because a lot of people seem to agree with Reborn's assessment, and I do not... at least I don't agree with a lot of it.

Yes, TO's are a big problem. Yes, JWIII and Perkins need to provide more leadership. yada yada. Is this really the sign of complete gloom and doom?

This IS a top 15 type team. They had a bad game and weren't ready for the big stage. Vill exposed them in a bad way... Good teams will do that.

Yes, Rui is lost at times, but he's still a guy that put up 20 and 9 against a good Texas team... so it's safe to say he belongs.

Tillie is fine. Perkins will limit TOs. JWIII will get it sorted out. Novell will figure out defensive rotations.

This is a YOUNG team with upperclassmen who aren't accustomed to bringing up the young pups. I still believe this team is ahead of schedule and that things will only get better (with some ups and downs). Horrible passing team? Um, no. I can't say that.... despite the turnovers, the spacing and entry on the high-low posts has been pretty good (and it too will get better). JWIII isn't good at passing out of double teams, but Larson and Tillie are -- and now Rui understands how to move when the double team or help side does come down... It's a work in process, to be sure, but I don't see the sky is falling scenario Reborn does.

Hoopaholic
12-06-2017, 11:25 AM
Well, maybe I'm the minority here, because a lot of people seem to agree with Reborn's assessment, and I do not... at least I don't agree with a lot of it.

Yes, TO's are a big problem. Yes, JWIII and Perkins need to provide more leadership. yada yada. Is this really the sign of complete gloom and doom?

This IS a top 15 type team. They had a bad game and weren't ready for the big stage. Vill exposed them in a bad way... Good teams will do that.

Yes, Rui is lost at times, but he's still a guy that put up 20 and 9 against a good Texas team... so it's safe to say he belongs.

Tillie is fine. Perkins will limit TOs. JWIII will get it sorted out. Novell will figure out defensive rotations.

This is a YOUNG team with upperclassmen who aren't accustomed to bringing up the young pups. I still believe this team is ahead of schedule and that things will only get better (with some ups and downs). Horrible passing team? Um, no. I can't say that.... despite the turnovers, the spacing and entry on the high-low posts has been pretty good (and it too will get better). JWIII isn't good at passing out of double teams, but Larson and Tillie are -- and now Rui understands how to move when the double team or help side does come down... It's a work in process, to be sure, but I don't see the sky is falling scenario Reborn does.

I have been silent because I do not agree with the doomsday assessments being bantered about, desire to suddenly bench starters or to change roles and responsibilities.

I agree with your post.....it is a work in progress and we are dealing with young inexperienced players who by their inexperience tend to be a step behind, 2 feet out of proper angle, uncertain as to timing and cutting which can lead to turnovers....as they continue to grow, learn about each others strengths and weakness I see a bright future ahead for this team. After all it is the first week of December

This game was probably the best thing for the young team to see what true 40 minute intensity is, how a team can work as one and be very succesful

Learning and growing was also shown in this game despite some not wanting to recognize it IMO.......Villanova press was handled and handled well...we got 2 dunks, 2 layups and pulled it out 3 times to run our offense....clearly the team has worked on this and improved their understanding of positioning, angles etc.....to the point that Villanova did not press at all the second half even when we made a small run

Mr Vulture
12-06-2017, 11:50 AM
Typical meltdown stuff after a loss...here is how I see it:

They played a veteran team, #4 in the country, in a pseudo home environment. Gonzaga played without Kispert, JWIII (most of the game due to fouls), and Rui (most of the game due to fouls). Villanova had two guys have their highest scoring games of their career. Villanova shot just a hair under 50% from the 3pt line, compared to us at 27%, and we turned the ball over 19 times. With all of that, we lost by 16pts and had it as low as 7pts with 10 minutes to go.

What this tells me is that we have things to work on, which most younger teams have. We need to take care of ball better and play smarter (some of those fouls on Rui/JWIII were tough). We will get better as the year moves on, completely believe that. I don't think we got beat by a better team, I think we lost due to a confluence of many factors. If we played Villanova again, on a neutral court, and with our full team available...I truly think we could win. I highly doubt that Booth/Bridges would both set career highs and I doubt that they shoot nearly 50% from 3pt land again either. I would imagine that numbers would normalize as they always do.

Everyone needs to relax, and those that say the coaching was bad last night are laughable. The players play the game, the staff didn't turn the ball over or miss the shots, all they can do is put guys in position to succeed. This was ONE GAME...goodness. I literally may be the last one we lose all year to be honest.

bballbeachbum
12-06-2017, 11:51 AM
Well, maybe I'm the minority here, because a lot of people seem to agree with Reborn's assessment, and I do not... at least I don't agree with a lot of it.

Yes, TO's are a big problem. Yes, JWIII and Perkins need to provide more leadership. yada yada. Is this really the sign of complete gloom and doom?

This IS a top 15 type team. They had a bad game and weren't ready for the big stage. Vill exposed them in a bad way... Good teams will do that.

Yes, Rui is lost at times, but he's still a guy that put up 20 and 9 against a good Texas team... so it's safe to say he belongs.

Tillie is fine. Perkins will limit TOs. JWIII will get it sorted out. Novell will figure out defensive rotations.

This is a YOUNG team with upperclassmen who aren't accustomed to bringing up the young pups. I still believe this team is ahead of schedule and that things will only get better (with some ups and downs). Horrible passing team? Um, no. I can't say that.... despite the turnovers, the spacing and entry on the high-low posts has been pretty good (and it too will get better). JWIII isn't good at passing out of double teams, but Larson and Tillie are -- and now Rui understands how to move when the double team or help side does come down... It's a work in process, to be sure, but I don't see the sky is falling scenario Reborn does.

agree with this. it's a game this team had to experience

hoop, not sure I agree the Zags handled the press well, not at first at least. they adjusted to that tempo, that's what it looked like and settled and handled it better but did appear all Zags fumbled balls and missed open shots and turned it over for a while until settling down/adjusting to the tempo, but never were able to close the gap

but I'm with you here 100%
This game was probably the best thing for the young team to see what true 40 minute intensity is, how a team can work as one and be very succesful

vandalzag
12-06-2017, 12:09 PM
Team play is gone.

Remember the quick passing, extra pass, finding others scoring opportunities in preseason and beginning of year?

Gone.

Coach Few said this cannot be a isolated team...and he was right.

The ball is getting awfully sticky.

My guess?

A combination of press clippings featuring Perkins 'one of the best guards in country', Rui and Tillie 'NBA scouts and future lottery picks', and J3 'coming out of shadow last year to dominate and surprise all us pundits', etc etc.

This team has been coddled and now they believe they are playing to scouts.

It has been more than obvious J3 is trying to "get his", forcing everything. That 39 pt game was one of the worst things for him. Also, endless fawning over how good we are again and how could our players are...

Back to reality! A reminder how how this team can be successful and not.

Last night it looked like J3, Rui, Perkins all had ulterior motives on the biggest stage. You can't tell me they aren't playing for scouts. J3 final chance.

Remember in early season, to kick things off, we were exciting and electric as 6, 7, 8 passes before someone unselfishly took a great shot attempt. A good shot was passed for a better one.

Even Norvell played wirh aggression but still was one on one.

That ISN'T Nova, folks. That is who they have become as scouts and analysts praise their efforts.

Nova played a part sure, but the reckless care of the ball, the end to end shot attempts, the isolation one on one crap, the lack of movement, or the extra pass.

All of it disappeared post PK80. Even vs Creighton. It was due to one players hot shooting we pulled away. That works sometimes yet less efficient as a team

Only player sticking to gameplan and style of unselfish play we saw at beggining of season is Larsen. Always looking to make a play or the extra pass if needed. Also, Melson as well. Not playing for scouts/stats, but playing catch up or filling in for the other guys.

We had that fun style to start the year.

When no one cares about getting "theirs".

Ugly bball now, for the last few games. It started in 2nd half of Texas game.

The passing went non existent. Sad trend. These guys are putting themselves over team success. It's clear as day with the TO's, forcing attempts, lack of passing, selective defense, list goes on...

This team can play fast and seamless, but they need to put their growing egos aside foe team unity and success.

If they all have to average 8ppg to win, so be it, but several guys are playing desperate.

Even SMC will kick our cans if we continue playing the way they've been playing, even before Nova. J3 has had 5+ TO's every game since Texas because of him only seeing his future and not playing in the present. Not because of a funk rather a mindset.

The "team" or stat fillers who showed up last night would have went 0-3 in Portland. Guaranteed.

Hey, Nova is good, maybe great, but our guys LET them look helluva lot better than they are...

We are better than that WHEN we decide to play like a team again. In the preseason, we almost made too many extra passes, well, that's the team that played before all the ESPN articles, local media, and everyone else petting them, their egos, and even reading about their NBA stock.

Add in no steady presence or leader in huddles, well, recipe for trouble.

Unless they see the bigger picture, let go of stats/#'s/hype, this young team is on dangerous ground and could go on a slide.

If the same selfish, listless, effortless team shows up in Seattle, we'll get our collective butts whooped once again.

I really think you are soft-selling what happened last night.

Hoopaholic
12-06-2017, 12:29 PM
Team play is gone.

Remember the quick passing, extra pass, finding others scoring opportunities in preseason and beginning of year?

Gone.

Coach Few said this cannot be a isolated team...and he was right.

The ball is getting awfully sticky.

My guess?

A combination of press clippings featuring Perkins 'one of the best guards in country', Rui and Tillie 'NBA scouts and future lottery picks', and J3 'coming out of shadow last year to dominate and surprise all us pundits', etc etc.

This team has been coddled and now they believe they are playing to scouts.

It has been more than obvious J3 is trying to "get his", forcing everything. That 39 pt game was one of the worst things for him. Also, endless fawning over how good we are again and how could our players are...

Back to reality! A reminder how how this team can be successful and not.

Last night it looked like J3, Rui, Perkins all had ulterior motives on the biggest stage. You can't tell me they aren't playing for scouts. J3 final chance.

Remember in early season, to kick things off, we were exciting and electric as 6, 7, 8 passes before someone unselfishly took a great shot attempt. A good shot was passed for a better one.

Even Norvell played wirh aggression but still was one on one.

That ISN'T Nova, folks. That is who they have become as scouts and analysts praise their efforts.

Nova played a part sure, but the reckless care of the ball, the end to end shot attempts, the isolation one on one crap, the lack of movement, or the extra pass.

All of it disappeared post PK80. Even vs Creighton. It was due to one players hot shooting we pulled away. That works sometimes yet less efficient as a team

Only player sticking to gameplan and style of unselfish play we saw at beggining of season is Larsen. Always looking to make a play or the extra pass if needed. Also, Melson as well. Not playing for scouts/stats, but playing catch up or filling in for the other guys.

We had that fun style to start the year.

When no one cares about getting "theirs".

Ugly bball now, for the last few games. It started in 2nd half of Texas game.

The passing went non existent. Sad trend. These guys are putting themselves over team success. It's clear as day with the TO's, forcing attempts, lack of passing, selective defense, list goes on...

This team can play fast and seamless, but they need to put their growing egos aside foe team unity and success.

If they all have to average 8ppg to win, so be it, but several guys are playing desperate.

Even SMC will kick our cans if we continue playing the way they've been playing, even before Nova. J3 has had 5+ TO's every game since Texas because of him only seeing his future and not playing in the present. Not because of a funk rather a mindset.

The "team" or stat fillers who showed up last night would have went 0-3 in Portland. Guaranteed.

Hey, Nova is good, maybe great, but our guys LET them look helluva lot better than they are...

We are better than that WHEN we decide to play like a team again. In the preseason, we almost made too many extra passes, well, that's the team that played before all the ESPN articles, local media, and everyone else petting them, their egos, and even reading about their NBA stock.

Add in no steady presence or leader in huddles, well, recipe for trouble.

Unless they see the bigger picture, let go of stats/#'s/hype, this young team is on dangerous ground and could go on a slide.

If the same selfish, listless, effortless team shows up in Seattle, we'll get our collective butts whooped once again.

step back from the ledge.......was villanova selfish then too as they had 14 assists and we had 13

some quick shots, some ill advised shots but to suddenly come out and say the kids are all being self centered selfish is extreme IMO

Hoopaholic
12-06-2017, 12:36 PM
agree with this. it's a game this team had to experience

hoop, not sure I agree the Zags handled the press well, not at first at least. they adjusted to that tempo, that's what it looked like and settled and handled it better but did appear all Zags fumbled balls and missed open shots and turned it over for a while until settling down/adjusting to the tempo, but never were able to close the gap

but I'm with you here 100%

went back and charted just the press;

Rui with two turnovers (trying to go to hoop on the push ahead too quickly)
J3 with a fumble but made the basket
J3 with dunk
Larsen with 2 made layups
Norvell with missed 3 ball (youth inexperience) but was open look just not the BEST open look

so during the 6 minutes they pressed we had 2 turnovers (by same person and 4 made layups/dunks and missed open 3 ball)

Told old man no way NOva presses in second half as you cant give up that many easy buckets on a press and keep it up

Skimhvn
12-06-2017, 12:49 PM
Rui's traveling was obviously not traveling. Refs called just because it looked like traveling. If that wasn't called....

dan71w
12-06-2017, 01:07 PM
i am actually ok with this loss, after watching my daughter cram for her finals this week. logic tells me the Zags also have finals to worry about. in years past it seams to me we have struggled right about the first week of December and tend to drop those games. no not last year, as that was a special year and team. i remember many times we have lost the game right around the first week of December, or at least it is usually a game where we look out of sorts. at least the road games. so IMO no bigy, so we lost a game on the other side of the country, during finals weel!!! Zag world is not falling

bballbeachbum
12-06-2017, 01:11 PM
went back and charted just the press;

Rui with two turnovers (trying to go to hoop on the push ahead too quickly)
J3 with a fumble but made the basket
J3 with dunk
Larsen with 2 made layups
Norvell with missed 3 ball (youth inexperience) but was open look just not the BEST open look

so during the 6 minutes they pressed we had 2 turnovers (by same person and 4 made layups/dunks and missed open 3 ball)

Told old man no way NOva presses in second half as you cant give up that many easy buckets on a press and keep it up

thanks. and with that press which pushed tempo the Zags in their other possessions were rushed and also fumbling and playing out of control. Zach even in the hald court thought he was still being pressed, for example, it looked like. you don't think the press forced the Zags into their crazy start at all? don't think it had anything to do with their ragged and rattled play?

edit: rewatching right now, and looks like it affected things to me hoop....and then it didn't.

bballbeachbum
12-06-2017, 01:40 PM
went back and charted just the press;

Rui with two turnovers (trying to go to hoop on the push ahead too quickly)
J3 with a fumble but made the basket
J3 with dunk
Larsen with 2 made layups
Norvell with missed 3 ball (youth inexperience) but was open look just not the BEST open look

so during the 6 minutes they pressed we had 2 turnovers (by same person and 4 made layups/dunks and missed open 3 ball)

Told old man no way NOva presses in second half as you cant give up that many easy buckets on a press and keep it up

this is fun hoop! example of the pressure affecting tempo around 8:15 mark first half, Zach had a charge, it's not listed there on your chart. At that point it was an 8 point game. On Zags next possession, with NO press from Nova, Zach turned it over again for a breakaway dunk. That is a perfect example of how the press dictated tempo in this game in my opinion

Reborn
12-06-2017, 01:46 PM
Well, maybe I'm the minority here, because a lot of people seem to agree with Reborn's assessment, and I do not... at least I don't agree with a lot of it.

Yes, TO's are a big problem. Yes, JWIII and Perkins need to provide more leadership. yada yada. Is this really the sign of complete gloom and doom?

This IS a top 15 type team. They had a bad game and weren't ready for the big stage. Vill exposed them in a bad way... Good teams will do that.

Yes, Rui is lost at times, but he's still a guy that put up 20 and 9 against a good Texas team... so it's safe to say he belongs.

Tillie is fine. Perkins will limit TOs. JWIII will get it sorted out. Novell will figure out defensive rotations.

This is a YOUNG team with upperclassmen who aren't accustomed to bringing up the young pups. I still believe this team is ahead of schedule and that things will only get better (with some ups and downs). Horrible passing team? Um, no. I can't say that.... despite the turnovers, the spacing and entry on the high-low posts has been pretty good (and it too will get better). JWIII isn't good at passing out of double teams, but Larson and Tillie are -- and now Rui understands how to move when the double team or help side does come down... It's a work in process, to be sure, but I don't see the sky is falling scenario Reborn does.

I certainly wasn't trying to post a "gloom and doom" post. It's up to YOU if you want to see it that way. It's just what I happen to see with my eyes and mind. No intention to ridicule any players. Just sharing my thoughts. I don't mind you disagreeing at all, but to understand why you see it as gloom and doom. That's on your and your interpretation. Sometimes what looks negative can actually be positive. Criticism CAN Be a constructive and good thing.

Reborn
12-06-2017, 01:59 PM
Lol. I'm sorry. Last nights team would slap the crap out of alot of former zag teams. I would of imagined you of all people would know this. Did they play bad? Yep. Did they struggle? Yep. I can go to past zag teams that were solid and show bad games. I can go even further and show you just horrible zag teams.

Is this a all time great zag team? Maybe and maybe not. I mean we got spanked by Cuse, duke,etc in the past. Villanova is probably a final 4 team. Not every year will the zags have a final 4 team. The team last night would still beat 65% of our former teams on talent alone. You are wrong here.


I agree about some of your other stuff. Perkins has been on and off but dude is shooting 50%+ from 3. Maybe cut turnovers down? Otherwise he is a good offensive shooter so far. 14.4ppg and 50% from 3 with 4.4 assist and 4 RPG. The only poor thing is the 3 turnovers per game however and I'd have to check others before him. (Edit: dickau avg 2.9 turnovers per game at 33mpg. Blake stepp at 3.0 a game at 31mpg and his Jr yr was 3.3 at 35 mpg.) So josh has ball in hands all game and plays same amount as stepp junior year and dickau and stepp averages same turnover per gm. Stepp had 2 more assists but 14% worse from 3.

Jw3? 14.7 and 6.1 and his bad stat is turnovers at 3.1(compare turiaf at 15&9 and with 2.2 turnovers per game. Turiaf 0.9 less turnovers but 8% worse FG shooter) I would like him at #4 spot and I think we will see that this year again.

Rui? Yea he looks lost.

Tillie? Played soft last night. Overall his stats are nice.

Melson? Stud.

Comparing Jones who doesn't get to play and hart is silly. Hart was whatever. Good d and good team chemistry and good guy.

So in short...lol

Is Perkins a stepp or dickau? No. I think they are better. He isn't far off stat and fact wise. What we are getting is opinions. Last nights performance of a team would beat 65% of our old zag teams. And then throw in crap losses by those old zag teams. Portland state? Lol. BYU in down yr? Lol. Go look at 1998-99 team. 2014 team.

Nothing wrong you disagreeing. If you look at the Texas game where we had 24 turnovers and almost blew the game because Perkins and JW3 were unable to handle the press. 19 turnovers last night. And it wasn't just the turnovers last night that hurt the Zags. JW3 didn't play good, and in my opinion he played crappy against Creighton too. If he looks like a center to you, that's cool. He looks nothing like one to me. Is he a gunner, meaning he seldom gets an assist, of course he is. If he gets the ball in the low post he is going to shoot 90% of the time. He's become easy to defend. If you think he'll pull out of it, he may. But if you look ahead there aren't too many more tough games until the tournaments. I NEVER said to bench JW3. I said to put him back where he played last year, and play Larsen in the post. again, not a doomsday post imo. Its factual.

Reborn
12-06-2017, 02:00 PM
99% of zags aren't on NBA roster. Why didn't we bench stepp or gray or goss?

I mean goss wasn't NBA.

They didn't play like JW3 either. AND as i've said. I did not say to bench him. I said change his postion.

TexasZagFan
12-06-2017, 02:09 PM
step back from the ledge.......was villanova selfish then too as they had 14 assists and we had 13

some quick shots, some ill advised shots but to suddenly come out and say the kids are all being self centered selfish is extreme IMO

I'm with you, hoop. Won't name names, but the knee jerk reactions here are premature. I'm glad I still have Creighton on my DVR, so I'll be able to look at it fondly if we're wrong, and the naysayers are right.

When things go wrong in a game, there's a natural tendency to try to do more than you're capable of. That's my sense of what happened last night.

Sky's not falling, we were within 7 at the next to last TV TO. 19 TOs is about the only stat I needed to see...and 6-22 from 3. Rebounds were essentially even.

I respect the hoops knowledge of people who post here, but I have my own two (aged) eyes, and the benefit of playing and watching basketball for nearly 60 years. I also had the benefit of getting up close and personal with most of these players in July. Admittedly that was a short time, but they're a very close knit group. They'll bounce back.

TexasZagFan
12-06-2017, 02:12 PM
I certainly wasn't trying to post a "gloom and doom" post. It's up to YOU if you want to see it that way. It's just what I happen to see with my eyes and mind. No intention to ridicule any players. Just sharing my thoughts. I don't mind you disagreeing at all, but to understand why you see it as gloom and doom. That's on your and your interpretation. Sometimes what looks negative can actually be positive. Criticism CAN Be a constructive and good thing.

Some of the best lessons in life come from getting your arse kicked, such as last night.

TexasZagFan
12-06-2017, 02:16 PM
They didn't play like JW3 either. AND as i've said. I did not say to bench him. I said change his postion.

Raises a dilemma if you put J3 at 4. Moves Tillie to 3. Only big guy is Jacob, and he can't go 40 minutes (and please don't say we wish Ryan was still here, he's not doing so great at Portland State). We're kind of stuck with a 3 guard, 2 forward lineup, except when we go with a 2 guard, 3 forward lineup. Might even see 4 guards and a center during the season.

rennis
12-06-2017, 02:17 PM
This thread delivers!!

TexasZagFan
12-06-2017, 02:21 PM
This thread delivers!!

Help me out...exactly WHAT is this thread delivering? lol

Zags11
12-06-2017, 02:54 PM
Nothing wrong you disagreeing. If you look at the Texas game where we had 24 turnovers and almost blew the game because Perkins and JW3 were unable to handle the press. 19 turnovers last night. And it wasn't just the turnovers last night that hurt the Zags. JW3 didn't play good, and in my opinion he played crappy against Creighton too. If he looks like a center to you, that's cool. He looks nothing like one to me. Is he a gunner, meaning he seldom gets an assist, of course he is. If he gets the ball in the low post he is going to shoot 90% of the time. He's become easy to defend. If you think he'll pull out of it, he may. But if you look ahead there aren't too many more tough games until the tournaments. I NEVER said to bench JW3. I said to put him back where he played last year, and play Larsen in the post. again, not a doomsday post imo. Its factual.



If you listen to the analysis and post game break down, most analyst's blamed Perkins teammate's for not setting up the press correctly. The one 110% on him was what led to the tie.

Perkins is too cute with the ball at times. However his stats measure up in turnover department with other PG's. Goss at 2.1 turnovers and 16.8 ppg and 6 and 4. With better team.

Perkins carries the team more then ppl give credit for. Example? Florida.

Zags11
12-06-2017, 02:55 PM
They didn't play like JW3 either. AND as i've said. I did not say to bench him. I said change his postion.

I fully agree. Unfortunately that's on mark few and not jw3.

Hoopaholic
12-06-2017, 03:51 PM
i am actually ok with this loss, after watching my daughter cram for her finals this week. logic tells me the Zags also have finals to worry about. in years past it seams to me we have struggled right about the first week of December and tend to drop those games. no not last year, as that was a special year and team. i remember many times we have lost the game right around the first week of December, or at least it is usually a game where we look out of sorts. at least the road games. so IMO no bigy, so we lost a game on the other side of the country, during finals weel!!! Zag world is not falling
Breaking the press and controlling tempo are two distinct different actions and we have seen non press games where the tempo became open gym. That for me is the focus. Team wise knowing When to push tempo and punish the opponent and when to take breathe slow it down and have good set

That for me is key to future success and as stated the young kids are learning good tempo and shot selections wrong tempo and poor shot selection

Hoopaholic
12-06-2017, 03:58 PM
Nothing wrong you disagreeing. If you look at the Texas game where we had 24 turnovers and almost blew the game because Perkins and JW3 were unable to handle the press. 19 turnovers last night. And it wasn't just the turnovers last night that hurt the Zags. JW3 didn't play good, and in my opinion he played crappy against Creighton too. If he looks like a center to you, that's cool. He looks nothing like one to me. Is he a gunner, meaning he seldom gets an assist, of course he is. If he gets the ball in the low post he is going to shoot 90% of the time. He's become easy to defend. If you think he'll pull out of it, he may. But if you look ahead there aren't too many more tough games until the tournaments. I NEVER said to bench JW3. I said to put him back where he played last year, and play Larsen in the post. again, not a doomsday post imo. Its factual.

Odd stats don't point to a gunner. His assists have doubled from last year

His shooting is down .07 percent but with extra focus that can be reasonably expected shooting 52% from floor

Not exact gunner stats. Imo calling someone a gunner is derogatory towards a kids play. Especially when facts don't hold to that descriptor

Turnovers and understanding ball rotation in double teams ( which requires in sync teammates knowing where rotate or cut and again they have young kids still learning this finer detail of game)

But hey to each his own

bballbeachbum
12-06-2017, 05:29 PM
Breaking the press and controlling tempo are two distinct different actions

they go hand in hand as well

Reborn
12-06-2017, 07:47 PM
Odd stats don't point to a gunner. His assists have doubled from last year

His shooting is down .07 percent but with extra focus that can be reasonably expected shooting 52% from floor

Not exact gunner stats. Imo calling someone a gunner is derogatory towards a kids play. Especially when facts don't hold to that descriptor

Turnovers and understanding ball rotation in double teams ( which requires in sync teammates knowing where rotate or cut and again they have young kids still learning this finer detail of game)

But hey to each his own

I'm glad to see you finally made it to moderator. Must feel great.

Regarding calling JW3 a gunner, back when my friends and I played basketball anyone who shot all the time and seldom passed, and took a ton of horrible shots that he just threw up hoping it might go in. No, praying that it might go in. To me these guys are not kids. They're young adults. If anyone had called me a kid when I was 22 I would not have liked it.

Reborn
12-06-2017, 07:49 PM
Raises a dilemma if you put J3 at 4. Moves Tillie to 3. Only big guy is Jacob, and he can't go 40 minutes (and please don't say we wish Ryan was still here, he's not doing so great at Portland State). We're kind of stuck with a 3 guard, 2 forward lineup, except when we go with a 2 guard, 3 forward lineup. Might even see 4 guards and a center during the season.

Tillie comes in off the bench and stays out of foul trouble. By doing this when he is on the court he can play all out because he's not in foul trouble the whole game.

TexasZagFan
12-07-2017, 06:15 AM
I'm glad to see you finally made it to moderator. Must feel great.

Regarding calling JW3 a gunner, back when my friends and I played basketball anyone who shot all the time and seldom passed, and took a ton of horrible shots that he just threw up hoping it might go in. No, praying that it might go in. To me these guys are not kids. They're young adults. If anyone had called me a kid when I was 22 I would not have liked it.

Nor I. At 22, I was handling two platoons with a total of 40 men. Took enough crap as a 2nd Lt, calling me "kid" would have been over the top.

:lmao:

TexasZagFan
12-07-2017, 06:16 AM
Tillie comes in off the bench and stays out of foul trouble. By doing this when he is on the court he can play all out because he's not in foul trouble the whole game.

It sure didn't hurt Zach's draft position to come in off the bench last year.

Zagsker
12-07-2017, 06:27 AM
These games are only amplified because our conference sucks and we only have so many top 50 matchup for comparison...NC got boat raced by MSU and ultimately it is a little blip on their radar...which Nova "should" be for us

We played very poorly (it happens) and still had a shot midway through the 2nd to climb back in

Bogozags
12-07-2017, 08:30 AM
The only thing I can say about the game is: "The best thing about freshman is that they become sophomores." (Quote from Al McGuire)

dan71w
12-07-2017, 09:33 AM
well, i just did a little bit of digging, turns out the sky is blue and all's well in Zagville.

2002–03 December 15 georgia, loss
2003-04 Sat, Dec 20, stanford. loss
2004-05 Thu, Dec 30, Missouri. loss
2005–06 Sun, Dec 4, Washington, loss
2006-07 Tue, Dec 5 Washington State, loss (december was a bad year for december as we only one once in that month.
2007-08 Wed, Dec 5 Washington State, loss
2008-09 Sun, Dec 14 Arizona, loss(another bad year as we lost 3 more games that month
2010-11 Sat, Dec 4 Illinois, loss(lost 2 in a row that year).
2011-12 Sat, Dec 3, Illinois, loss
2012-13 Sat, Dec 8, Illinois, loss
2013-14 Sat, Dec 21 Kansas State, loss
2014-15 Sat, Dec 6 Arizona, loss
2015-16 Sat, Dec 5 Arizona, loss

2016-17 nada we where so good!!
I guess those first games in December are rough.

Bogozags
12-07-2017, 01:20 PM
well, i just did a little bit of digging, turns out the sky is blue and all's well in Zagville.

2002–03 December 15 georgia, loss
2003-04 Sat, Dec 20, stanford. loss
2004-05 Thu, Dec 30, Missouri. loss
2005–06 Sun, Dec 4, Washington, loss
2006-07 Tue, Dec 5 Washington State, loss (december was a bad year for december as we only one once in that month.
2007-08 Wed, Dec 5 Washington State, loss
2008-09 Sun, Dec 14 Arizona, loss(another bad year as we lost 3 more games that month
2010-11 Sat, Dec 4 Illinois, loss(lost 2 in a row that year).
2011-12 Sat, Dec 3, Illinois, loss
2012-13 Sat, Dec 8, Illinois, loss
2013-14 Sat, Dec 21 Kansas State, loss
2014-15 Sat, Dec 6 Arizona, loss
2015-16 Sat, Dec 5 Arizona, loss

2016-17 nada we where so good!!
I guess those first games in December are rough.



Ok, I have the solution...we just don't play games in December...load up on back to back games in November and play on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays (league play on Thurs & Sat) in January...this should work right?

Stache
12-07-2017, 09:20 PM
I mentioned this in the game thread - we always have a clunkernear finals. The kids are tired, stressed a bit, and distracted by the real reason for being at GU. Portland State is the best bad example. Once finals are over they get some sleep and re-energize. Hopefully Sunday doesn’t bite us.

75Zag
12-07-2017, 10:22 PM
One loss does not mean very much in the scheme of life or college BB, but when that loss is in front of the elite national press corps, on national TV, and in the most famous indoor sports venue in the country, I fear that the NCAA Committee may remember GU's face-plant when it comes to seeding in March. Hopefully GU will have proven its bona fide credentials as a high NCAA seed by March, in which case the beating GU took at MSG won't matter.

Hoopaholic
12-08-2017, 07:10 AM
One loss does not mean very much in the scheme of life or college BB, but when that loss is in front of the elite national press corps, on national TV, and in the most famous indoor sports venue in the country, I fear that the NCAA Committee may remember GU's face-plant when it comes to seeding in March. Hopefully GU will have proven its bona fide credentials as a high NCAA seed by March, in which case the beating GU took at MSG won't matter.

I am sure they will

But also certain they will factor in a starter not available and youth

MontanaCoyote
12-08-2017, 07:36 AM
I mentioned this in the game thread - we always have a clunkernear finals. The kids are tired, stressed a bit, and distracted by the real reason for being at GU. Portland State is the best bad example. Once finals are over they get some sleep and re-energize. Hopefully Sunday doesn’t bite us.

Isn't this the truth! So, how often do we run up against a team that's not tired, not stressed and not distracted by academics?!

I don't know the rules, but when I was in both high school and college (Seattle U baseball early '60's) you Had to go to class or you didn't play. I know it won't happen now in the college ranks, but going to Real classes and Regular attendance should be required. Fair, would help level the playing field and best for the kids.

PS I have heard the argument that varsity athletes shouldn't be required to attend any classes during the season of their sport. On one level this might make sense, but the how many "one and done's" would you have leaving "school" without any academics at all?

Birddog
12-08-2017, 07:59 AM
On one level this might make sense, but the how many "one and done's" would you have leaving "school" without any academics at all?
A large number of one and dones don't bother attending class in 2nd semester these days and that is after a minimum schedule of soft classes in 1st semester .

amaronizag
12-08-2017, 08:03 AM
In many cases, going to class is way over-rated and a waste of time. It all depends on your major. As a science major, I soon realized that science class and lab attendance were essential. But as for other classes that just required a lot of reading and memorization, going to class was a waste of time that ate up most of the day that could otherwise be spent studying. It was easy to ace the non-science classes without ever attending class, but the science classes required attendance and far more hours of preparation in addition to lab and field work. Not nearly as many of the student athletes are science majors compared to the student population as a whole. It's just too hard to schedule make-up labs and field work around travel and practice. As long as a students grades are high, I don't care if they ever went to class.

cbbfanatic
12-08-2017, 08:11 AM
i dont think the game had much to do with finals, pseudo home courts (place was dominated by cuse/uconn anyway), fatigue, or anything like that. maybe small contributing factors, but what i saw was a GU team that was physically outmatched at nearly every position from the jump - against a team that had it's C+/B- game. pretty sure that not a single GU guard would crack the rotation at VU this year --- and before getting incensed by that, tell me who of that bunch is a better top-to-bottom player than brunson, booth, divincenzo. outside of tillie, not sure anyone else really finds their way to a prominent role if jerseys were switched. GU lost a lot last year, and they just dont have the guns to keep pace with a legit top 5 type team. even when they have a more veteran and stacked team, the record against elite competition in the recent decade is pretty poor (winless against the top 5?)

this was a bad matchup for gonzaga no matter where and when (assuming OOC portion of schedule) it was played. there are, however, plenty of things the GU team can learn to help protect itself better should it come across another team that does have better players at nearly every spot

Bogozags
12-09-2017, 09:04 AM
i dont think the game had much to do with finals, pseudo home courts (place was dominated by cuse/uconn anyway), fatigue, or anything like that. maybe small contributing factors, but what i saw was a GU team that was physically outmatched at nearly every position from the jump - against a team that had it's C+/B- game. pretty sure that not a single GU guard would crack the rotation at VU this year --- and before getting incensed by that, tell me who of that bunch is a better top-to-bottom player than brunson, booth, divincenzo. outside of tillie, not sure anyone else really finds their way to a prominent role if jerseys were switched. GU lost a lot last year, and they just dont have the guns to keep pace with a legit top 5 type team. even when they have a more veteran and stacked team, the record against elite competition in the recent decade is pretty poor (winless against the top 5?)

this was a bad matchup for gonzaga no matter where and when (assuming OOC portion of schedule) it was played. there are, however, plenty of things the GU team can learn to help protect itself better should it come across another team that does have better players at nearly every spot

I completely agree...

drvenkman05
12-09-2017, 04:01 PM
Because you mentioned your experience, as a college professor, I have to apologize on behalf of the profession! That sounds like you had some really poor teachers!


In many cases, going to class is way over-rated and a waste of time. It all depends on your major. As a science major, I soon realized that science class and lab attendance were essential. But as for other classes that just required a lot of reading and memorization, going to class was a waste of time that ate up most of the day that could otherwise be spent studying. It was easy to ace the non-science classes without ever attending class, but the science classes required attendance and far more hours of preparation in addition to lab and field work. Not nearly as many of the student athletes are science majors compared to the student population as a whole. It's just too hard to schedule make-up labs and field work around travel and practice. As long as a students grades are high, I don't care if they ever went to class.

TexasZagFan
12-09-2017, 07:01 PM
Because you mentioned your experience, as a college professor, I have to apologize on behalf of the profession! That sounds like you had some really poor teachers!

Given what I've observed of the current flock of college professors, there's not enough time in the day for the sheer volume of needed apologies. I was very pleased with my professors at GU, particularly "Black Dan" Brajcich, Dr. Graue, and Fr. Gerry Kohls. I got a world class education at GU which has stuck with me for 40+ years after graduation.

Murphy outgo lifer
12-09-2017, 11:35 PM
i dont think the game had much to do with finals, pseudo home courts (place was dominated by cuse/uconn anyway), fatigue, or anything like that. maybe small contributing factors, but what i saw was a GU team that was physically outmatched at nearly every position from the jump - against a team that had it's C+/B- game. pretty sure that not a single GU guard would crack the rotation at VU this year --- and before getting incensed by that, tell me who of that bunch is a better top-to-bottom player than brunson, booth, divincenzo. outside of tillie, not sure anyone else really finds their way to a prominent role if jerseys were switched. GU lost a lot last year, and they just dont have the guns to keep pace with a legit top 5 type team. even when they have a more veteran and stacked team, the record against elite competition in the recent decade is pretty poor (winless against the top 5?)

this was a bad matchup for gonzaga no matter where and when (assuming OOC portion of schedule) it was played. there are, however, plenty of things the GU team can learn to help protect itself better should it come across another team that does have better players at nearly every spot

I agree with your assessment and that is how I saw the game for the most part. However, I thought Larsen was the only player that looked like he belonged on the same court as Villanova.

With that being said, Villanova is an extremely veteran team at this point while we are still trying to bring along our young guys and gel as a team through finding roles and an identity. Both talented teams but we are at two different places in development. The hope is that by the time the tournament roles around we have realized some of our massive potential and could battle and give ourselves a chance to win against these top 5 teams.

To address your point about being outmatched at every position:

Tillie: To your point, Tillie absolutely belongs in that game and can compete against any team in the country. However, for all his talent he has been inconsistent in the effort department. There was a 5 or 6 minute period during the Villanova game that he absolutely took over on both ends; scoring several buckets, blocking and changing several shots, grabbing boards and then I can't remember him doing anything else for the rest of the game or before that point either. Few benched him after the Texas A&M game for poor performance (possibly because of lack of effort) and he responded amazingly. The thing I have to keep reminding myself is that Tillie is still really young and is going to have some up-and-downs but hopefully Few can find a way to get the most out of him every game and he will be solid come March. Having a consistent Tillie is huge and will allow us to compete at the highest levels.

JWIII - No one is going to outmatch JWIII as he is an extremely talented player. However, he is adjusting to a new role and a new position at times and to be honest a new team. We saw last year that it took him sometime to adjust but he showed that he belongs in the biggest games on the biggest stages. He will find his stride and as the team comes together he will find a way to impact the game. He will have some huge games for us this year and he will key for us come March; just like he was last year. Also, I think Larsen is showing he has earned more playing time and he a true 5 which will allow JWIII some more time at the 4.

Norvell - He showed he belonged in that game on the offensive side however, he needs a lot of improvement on the defensive side of things. The good news is that in the last two games against really good competition he has had flashes of growth on the defensive side of the ball. In the second halves of both the Creighton and Villanova games (mostly Creighton) he showed some Hart like qualities with hustle plays and increased intensity on defense. He has it in him to be impactful on that side of the ball and I believe Few will get that out of him. The lat 3 games he has been a juggernaut on offense but he needs to be able to put a whole game together and to work better within the flow of the offense. Come March this could be are most exciting and dangerous player if he can become more consistent on both ends of the floor but as of now we have some powerful offense coming off the bench when Kispert comes back.

Kispert - I think his absence in this game has been very understated. He brings maturity, consistency, and intensity every game and to be honest the Villanova performance lacked all of those. He helps the flow of the offense tremendously by consistently making the extra pass and he is our best shooter from the outside (or second best). He is big and physical and he absolutely belongs on the court with Villanova. He also has some improvements to make on the defensive end but I have no doubt he will have that figured out come March.

Perkins - His offense benefits a ton from having great ball movement and with Kispert out the offense has been more one dimensional. Perkins, Melson, Kispert, and Tillie all know how to move the ball and make the extra pass and that allows Perkins to find his offense even in games where they try to shut him down. Without Kispert, Norvell has been playing more and he is more ball dominant which I think is an okay thing for a 6th man type role off the bench but the lack of ball movement from him starting has stalled Perkins offense. With that being said, I think Perkins needs to continue to grow into the PG spot and find a way to dictate what Gonzaga wants to do on offense. That is the sign of a good PG and we have seen it from Chiozza and Brunson this year; they play their game no matter what and are never sped up or rushed. Perkins is essential to this team and we have seen him play some amazing games and we need that type of performance every game.

Melson - Solid on the defensive end. He has been making strides on the offensive side of the ball and he knows this offense backwards and forwards. He needs to be the senior leader on offense and hunt his shot like he did in the Creighton game and not shrink and be passive like he sometimes does. He can drive and shoot effectively and he needs to bring it every game. Besides being more aggressive on the offensive end he is a solid player for this team.

Larsen - I am not sure why Larsen has not been given more playing time to this point. He has played well in every game he has played in and he is a solid freshman big man who I think could grow to be a huge part of this team by March if he is given the opportunity. For this team to be the best it can be I think Larsen needs to be the 3rd big man and getting a lot of minutes. I personally think with his growth the last few weeks along with Norvell we have the potential to have a solid 7 player rotation with defensive role from Jones with the potential to have a solid 8 if Rui can figure it out.

Rui - He is one of the most athletic players we have ever had and he has the ability to make this a very solid team. However, I think the realistic impact for him this year is to be an opportunistic scorer, meaning that he takes open 3's and mid-range shots, put-backs, and transition buckets within the flow of the offense. Less of him driving and trying to create within the half-court sets. He also needs to focus on defense and become more impactful on that end as he has the talent to do it. He needs to make that a priority along with rebounding. He needs to start out with being more of a role player, playing tough defense, rebounding both offensively and defensively, setting screens, and just taking good shots on offense. Even with that role I think he could average a double-double for this team off the bench or maybe 8 and 8. If he can do those things this becomes a very deep and solid team.

Wade - As the other thread pointed out I too believe that Wade needs to play 4-6 minutes a game just to give Perkins more of a rest on the bench. If he is healthy he will probably have this type of role come conference play and I think it is very important for the energy levels of Perkins through-out the year. Right now I think he is mostly just a shooter but hopefully he can prove to be a reliable back-up point. That would be huge.


We have a lot to work on but the potential for this team is amazing. The exciting part about this team is that it has been playing at a top-15 level and we still have so many things to work on. The defense needs to get a lot better and I think the young players will get better and better as the year goes on. If they can work on that combined with all the things I listed above, I think they can compete with Villanova come March or any other team for that matter. It is going to take a great coaching effort from the staff but we have seen them do it before.

Novachp
12-10-2017, 05:21 AM
Hello Zag fans.. tried to get on this board after the game but it tokk a while to get approved.

First, huge fan of Few and your program. Congrats on the great run last year and the sustained success.

Nova fans were anxious about the game as we really didnt know how good the team was. Purdue and Arizona going down at the h holiday tournament in Atlantis was a shocker. Best win was Tennessee (who by the way is sneaky good). So i know many folks saw the Gonzaga game as a great measuring stick.

Your core is very good, Perkins, Tillie, Williams, Norvell and with Larsen now..... you will create noise again. I know Several of the guts struggled but you can see they have it.

Nova obviously played well. There is a lot of experience on the team, but ironically no seniors. Bridges is a stud and is going to be a wealthy young man-he will go early (and will graduate) and Booth was FINALLY back to his old form. IMHO, the loss of Booth and the ridiculous ncaa ruling on spellman last year cost us a legit shot at repeating. Oh well, if pigs could fly.

One thing i dont think you saw was Brunson at his best. Foul trouble (the refs sucked, didnt they?) and being off- missed layups when posting up early and uncharacteristic misses on jumpers. It was his worst game of the year. That said, your D on him was good, stayed down on many of his head fakes.

Anyway, good luck the rest of the way and perhaps we will have another round.

bartruff1
12-10-2017, 06:52 AM
Gonzaga got out played and out coached, clearly the better team won....I hope we don't see you in April ...... :o

Goshzagit
12-10-2017, 07:15 AM
Hello Zag fans.. tried to get on this board after the game but it tokk a while to get approved.

First, huge fan of Few and your program. Congrats on the great run last year and the sustained success.

Nova fans were anxious about the game as we really didnt know how good the team was. Purdue and Arizona going down at the h holiday tournament in Atlantis was a shocker. Best win was Tennessee (who by the way is sneaky good). So i know many folks saw the Gonzaga game as a great measuring stick.

Your core is very good, Perkins, Tillie, Williams, Norvell and with Larsen now..... you will create noise again. I know Several of the guts struggled but you can see they have it.

Nova obviously played well. There is a lot of experience on the team, but ironically no seniors. Bridges is a stud and is going to be a wealthy young man-he will go early (and will graduate) and Booth was FINALLY back to his old form. IMHO, the loss of Booth and the ridiculous ncaa ruling on spellman last year cost us a legit shot at repeating. Oh well, if pigs could fly.

One thing i dont think you saw was Brunson at his best. Foul trouble (the refs sucked, didnt they?) and being off- missed layups when posting up early and uncharacteristic misses on jumpers. It was his worst game of the year. That said, your D on him was good, stayed down on many of his head fakes.

Anyway, good luck the rest of the way and perhaps we will have another round.

Nova is a terrific team. In some ways, better than last season lead by Hart and Jenkins. As good as Hart was, they often deferred to him too much in tough games, and even Villanova fans must admit, Jenkins, well wasn't always the most efficient player. Always clutch, played with heart, hustle, and talented, but maybe shouldn't have been a top option, imo.

I like this current group better, more versatile, more athleticism, even more intensity/fearless on defense.

The defense on Brunson was good, but required many fouls. He was also being defended by one of the best on-ball and underrated defenders in College hoops, Silas Melson.

Zags weren't at their best, yet it was in large part due to Villanova's intensity...and the venue. It was our first true game away from "home".

Not to mention we were down a starter, and arguably are best all-around player, small forward, do it all, tough guy, Corey Kispert. Averaging 10+ ppg, 4 rpg, 2 apg. For some reason, never mentioned by the announcers. Huge loss, especially for running offense vs excellent half-court defense like Nova played.

Our leading scorer fouled out and played 2 mins in 2nd half, our PG couldn't buy a bucket, even open ones (50% 3pt shooter, career 40%), and as many forced TO's Villanova created, we doubled those in unforced TO's as well.

I would vote Nova #1, and expect them to leap frog Mich St, Kansas, and Duke on Monday, yet the Zags did not show up. Been watching this team, every game since 1998, and you could see it in our expressions, hustle or lack thereof, unexplained TO's, and some selfish play, we simply weren't ready for the game -- mentally or physically.

The team that showed up to play Creighton in the 1st half, is the one who showed up in NY. Not the team who outscored Creighton by 26 in 2nd half, or even Texas by 22 in 1st half, or Ohio St by 26 (who just beat up on Michigan & Wisconsin).

That said, Nova still would have won even if this Zags team would have been ready to play this type of game. By 16 pts, no, but maybe a few. Our young bench such as Larsen (freshman), Norvell (freshman), Rui (Sophomore), and Kispert (freshman) will show up next time around as they will develop the next few months. Outside the first two, which were unexpected, its been Rui and Kispert our go-to young guys up to the Nova game, so seeing Norvell and Larsen was a plus.

I don't expect the Zags to a be a #1 or #2 seed as they have been the last 2 of 3 yrs, more like a #4 or #5 seed, so I do have a sneaking suspicion we will see Nova again. Nova will undoubtedly earn a #1 seed.

Could easily be the Sweet 16 given projections and whether we receive a protected seed close to home.

I expect the experienced Nova team to keep humming right along, all those juniors are at their respective "peak". Meanwhile, Zags "core" are all freshman and sophomore's, save Williams (who barely played vs Nova anyway) to step up their games.

As good as Nova is, Zags have a higher ceiling in regards for room for improvement. Also, a returning 6'6" starter from injury.

I think GU takes them to OT in March, and from there, anything can happen. All fun fantasy at this point, but point is, Zags will be able to compete with Villanova type team by the time NCAA comes around.

Thanks for the share.

ps. following the Gonzaga game performance, Mikal Bridges flew up draft boards by 5 or 6 spots. Scouts are now drooling at his versatility, multi position defense, size, and shot. He's considered a lottery pick now. While Nova has done a remarkable job keeping guys all 4 yrs, I expect him to declare after the season.

Zags have lost 4 players to early entrant drafts in the past 3 years, two just last season...and they were superstars at their positions.

ZagsGoZags
12-10-2017, 07:31 AM
Hi Novachp thanks for joining in. There has been a lot of deserved praise for nova players on this thread. I have to add to that how well coached your team is. You have a hell of a coach and I felt we were playing against a tight system that was very good, almost instinctual, on fundamentals. The game can be good for us if we can learn lessons from it. Some of our new players, I think, thought we were an elite team now, because we held our own against Florida. All of them, including us fans, understand how much more work we have to do on the problem of gelling as a team. I think Norvell, JWIII, and Rui still have a way to go before we will have the zag look on offense and defense that I believe Few is striving for. This game gives our coaching staff a lot to look over also, because I thought you were one of the best coached teams I can remember. I hope you folks go far, rooting for you except against our zags, and maybe we see each other in the Dance.