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Bogozags
12-05-2017, 02:51 PM
JWIII listed as the 57th pick...will be interesting to see how legitimate this is...

57. Suns (via Raptors)

Johnathan Williams | Senior | Gonzaga | PF

basketballzag
12-05-2017, 05:19 PM
JWIII listed as the 57th pick...will be interesting to see how legitimate this is...

57. Suns (via Raptors)

Johnathan Williams | Senior | Gonzaga | PF

It's a lot more legitimate than the Rui in the first round chatter.

zagsfanforlife
12-05-2017, 05:22 PM
I like rui but he’s looking like a 4 year guy

raise the zag
12-05-2017, 05:26 PM
I like rui but he’s looking like a 4 year guy

yet he's projected higher than any player on Nova's roster in many circles.

CDC84
12-05-2017, 05:49 PM
yet he's projected higher than any player on Nova's roster in many circles.

Villanova over the past 20 years has probably won more games with the least amount of talent of any power-conference school. A well known college basketball analyst I know refers to their program as the toughest, hardest working basketball program he has ever seen in all his years of covering the game. They have had a notable lack of NBA talent the entire time Jay Wright has been there, which is why the criticism he got before winning the national title was so stupid. They've had a few NBA guys, but still, it's a workingman's operation. Their practices are described as works of art when it comes to teaching footwork and shot fakes. All their guards must be able to switch defensively, post up, pass and shoot from deep. They are such a joy to watch because I don't think I have ever seen a Jay Wright team take a game off, and they so fundamentally sound. Obviously, I didn't witnessing it like it tonight.

I will take that back.....you could argue that Pitt under Howland and Dixon won more games with the least amount of talent of any power-conference school in recent history. Which, again, led to their awful treatment of Jamie Dixon who is now showing at TCU what a brilliant coach he is.

seacatfan
12-05-2017, 05:57 PM
You're probably onto something CDC. Foye, Lowry, not sure who else in recent years stuck in the League. Really good college players, but many of them just don't make it in the NBA.

Zag4Hire
12-05-2017, 07:08 PM
Even before tonight's performance, JW3 is not a NBA talent prospect. Tillie is more in this vein.

Where would you play JW3? He would be an under-skilled 3 and an under-sized 4.

Saxon_zag
12-05-2017, 07:53 PM
Even before tonight's performance, JW3 is not a NBA talent prospect. Tillie is more in this vein.

Where would you play JW3? He would be an under-skilled 3 and an under-sized 4.

This.

He's definitely a 4 and we've seen what NBA length like Bamba can do to him very recently. He'll be a good euro pro

thespywhozaggedme
12-05-2017, 08:29 PM
Even before tonight's performance, JW3 is not a NBA talent prospect. Tillie is more in this vein.

Where would you play JW3? He would be an under-skilled 3 and an under-sized 4.

And yet we are playing him at the five

Skimhvn
12-05-2017, 08:41 PM
I wanna see Rui & Tillie & Larsen combination in the next season again.

CDC84
12-05-2017, 10:22 PM
Even before tonight's performance, JW3 is not a NBA talent prospect. Tillie is more in this vein.

Where would you play JW3? He would be an under-skilled 3 and an under-sized 4.

Well, a reputable NBA scout did say to Matt Norlander that they view him as a 45 to 60 guy in the 2nd round.. The problem with that, however, is that you can be 47 one day, and be out of the draft the next. His biggest issue is he just isn't tall enough. Obviously, he could use some more muscle, but that can be worked on.

I was surprised that he played so badly tonight. JWIII is a very versatile defender. Elite at times. But it seems as if teams are starting to not allow him to set up his hook shot in the paint with multiple dribbles. They need to run some action where JWIII can attack more immediately.

He's obviously not a 2018 pick, but the most revealing part of Parrish's podcast with Norlander is that the scouts have taken an initial liking to Corey Kispert.

Killian Tillie has got to get stronger and get better with his halfcourt post offense.

Mantua
12-05-2017, 10:38 PM
I wanna see Rui & Tillie & Larsen combination in the next season again.

Me too!

Zags11
12-05-2017, 10:40 PM
Rui better learn to play defense.

jazzdelmar
12-06-2017, 04:47 AM
I didn't see any pros out there last night for GU. Tillie needs to find an engine like the Bonus. Way too surfer dude, cool for school. JW will join Goss in Europe. Rui is 2 years away. If at all. That's it for now.

thebigsmoove
12-06-2017, 05:11 AM
I like rui but he’s looking like a 4 year guy

How a player looks in college has literally nothing to do with their NBA draft status. Thats what so many people dont understand about the NBA. They draft on potential, not on proven skill. It is rare for them to be enamored with a 4 year guy who has progressed already and proven everything. Rui is in first round mock drafts because he has shown flashes of what he will be, and that is all that NBA scouts need to see. His athleticism, length, all his measurables, etc. will put him into the first round even if he cant play defense or disappears for large stretches of time.

Jakester425
12-06-2017, 07:31 AM
How a player looks in college has literally nothing to do with their NBA draft status. Thats what so many people dont understand about the NBA. They draft on potential, not on proven skill. It is rare for them to be enamored with a 4 year guy who has progressed already and proven everything. Rui is in first round mock drafts because he has shown flashes of what he will be, and that is all that NBA scouts need to see. His athleticism, length, all his measurables, etc. will put him into the first round even if he cant play defense or disappears for large stretches of time.

Exactly.

Mouhamed Sene & Robert Swift were lottery picks...

jazzdelmar
12-06-2017, 07:35 AM
Exactly.

Mouhamed Sene & Robert Swift were lottery picks...

I had no idea on Swift, wow.

https://www.si.com/nba/2016/09/21/robert-swift-nba-drug-addiction-thunder-sonics

Ezag
12-06-2017, 07:43 AM
Draft is potential. Look at Zach Collins, lottery pick play 2 minutes a game if that. Hard to argue that he shouldn't have declared because of the money but he definitely could have benefited with another year of college ball. That being said, I see Rui like Elias Harris. Harris was projected as a 1st rounder during his freshman year based on his athleticism and skill, stayed and didn't get drafted. Elias Harris was much further ahead of Rui at this point in his college career.

Goshzagit
12-06-2017, 07:47 AM
I didn't see any pros out there last night for GU. Tillie needs to find an engine like the Bonus. Way too surfer dude, cool for school. JW will join Goss in Europe. Rui is 2 years away. If at all. That's it for now.

Speaking of NWG, he is currently the favorite to win MVP of his ABA league. Also leading the entire league in assists.

Has been dominant in Europe play thus far. Avg like 19 & 9 & 6 or something ridiculous like that...

Given his success, acclaim, and consistent performance at a high level, he will receive another shot at the NBA.

His floater is unstoppable and still is, yet he couldn't buy a bucket or his trademark in Summer League play.

Hope it works out better next year.

Either way, he will end up a wealthy man as one of the best players in Euro Pro play.

Goshzagit
12-06-2017, 07:48 AM
How a player looks in college has literally nothing to do with their NBA draft status. Thats what so many people dont understand about the NBA. They draft on potential, not on proven skill. It is rare for them to be enamored with a 4 year guy who has progressed already and proven everything. Rui is in first round mock drafts because he has shown flashes of what he will be, and that is all that NBA scouts need to see. His athleticism, length, all his measurables, etc. will put him into the first round even if he cant play defense or disappears for large stretches of time.

Maybe Rui and Tillie (on occasion) has alreadt figured this out.

vandalzag
12-06-2017, 01:31 PM
I didn't see any pros out there last night for GU. Tillie needs to find an engine like the Bonus. Way too surfer dude, cool for school. JW will join Goss in Europe. Rui is 2 years away. If at all. That's it for now.

How was his engine against Creighton? One game does not make or brake any players NBA potential. Not really possible to predict. Say Rui gets it going come March and puts together a string of games like he played against Florida, could be the similar bump that Collins got last year. Granted Rui was really bad last night, but just like the Florida game did not make him an NBA player, this game did not take him out of the mix.

TexasZagFan
12-06-2017, 02:26 PM
How a player looks in college has literally nothing to do with their NBA draft status. Thats what so many people dont understand about the NBA. They draft on potential, not on proven skill. It is rare for them to be enamored with a 4 year guy who has progressed already and proven everything. Rui is in first round mock drafts because he has shown flashes of what he will be, and that is all that NBA scouts need to see. His athleticism, length, all his measurables, etc. will put him into the first round even if he cant play defense or disappears for large stretches of time.

Case in point: Nerlens Noel.

jazzdelmar
12-06-2017, 02:41 PM
How was his engine against Creighton? One game does not make or brake any players NBA potential. Not really possible to predict. Say Rui gets it going come March and puts together a string of games like he played against Florida, could be the similar bump that Collins got last year. Granted Rui was really bad last night, but just like the Florida game did not make him an NBA player, this game did not take him out of the mix.

Surely, when it comes to empirical evidence of talent, you’re not comparing Rui today with Collins one year ago, when I was already seeing him as a one and done?

Zags11
12-06-2017, 03:01 PM
Speaking of NWG, he is currently the favorite to win MVP of his ABA league. Also leading the entire league in assists.

Has been dominant in Europe play thus far. Avg like 19 & 9 & 6 or something ridiculous like that...

Given his success, acclaim, and consistent performance at a high level, he will receive another shot at the NBA.

His floater is unstoppable and still is, yet he couldn't buy a bucket or his trademark in Summer League play.

Hope it works out better next year.

Either way, he will end up a wealthy man as one of the best players in Euro Pro play.

Him and Zach should of stayed.

zagfan24
12-06-2017, 07:40 PM
Thats what so many people dont understand about the NBA. They draft on potential, not on proven skill.

I see various versions of this quote a lot, and I don't really think many people don't understand this. Clearly, NBA scouts primarily draft based on potential. Whether doing so is a recipe for success is questionable, IMO, especially given that by the time most 18/19 year old kids reach their potential they are jetting off to a new team. There's also a huge variance in what people mean by "drafting on potential" that ranges from complete projects with elite athleticism (Rui, at this point) to young but undeniably talented players (e.g., Ben Simmons).

Still, the bigger point is that there is a big difference between whether NBA teams do or should draft on potential and whether that means a player should leave early. Depending on projected draft position, the financial implications are obviously pretty significant and for most players it can amount to a wager on one's self. It is also true that NBA players have far more time and resources to devote to training and development. That said, I think what routinely gets ignored are many possible negative impacts of leaving early, including:
1) A lack of playing time stunting motivation
2) Limited early success leading to player movement, thus necessitating learning new systems and playing with new teammates and for new coaches, never sticking long enough to truly develop in one place
3) The negative impact on confidence in playing against superior competition, and
4) The possibility of a much smaller "second contract" - the place where most guys drafted outside of the top 10 go from wealthy to rich

There are plenty of examples of players who have developed and turned into NBA stars. But for everyone one of those, there are also the Austin Daye's of the world. I am convinced that Austin could have had a long and productive career in the NBA given his skillset and the growth of the stretch 4. Instead, I think Austin fell victim to some if not all of the above issues.

NBA teams draft on potential, but they are swinging for the fences when they do so. They are perfectly content to draft 3 or 4 "high potential" guys over the course of a few years and hope that 1 sticks...impervious by others floundering.

seacatfan
12-06-2017, 07:59 PM
Daye had opportunities and didn't take advantage of them. I really don't think another year in Spokane would've made much difference.

zagfan24
12-06-2017, 08:05 PM
Daye had opportunities and didn't take advantage of them. I really don't think another year in Spokane would've made much difference.

Maybe 2 years of maturity would have. Maybe not. He was just an example...definitely plenty on both sides of the argument. I sure hope Zach can stay focused and confident.

raise the zag
12-06-2017, 08:30 PM
I see various versions of this quote a lot, and I don't really think many people don't understand this. Clearly, NBA scouts primarily draft based on potential. Whether doing so is a recipe for success is questionable, IMO, especially given that by the time most 18/19 year old kids reach their potential they are jetting off to a new team. There's also a huge variance in what people mean by "drafting on potential" that ranges from complete projects with elite athleticism (Rui, at this point) to young but undeniably talented players (e.g., Ben Simmons).

Still, the bigger point is that there is a big difference between whether NBA teams do or should draft on potential and whether that means a player should leave early. Depending on projected draft position, the financial implications are obviously pretty significant and for most players it can amount to a wager on one's self. It is also true that NBA players have far more time and resources to devote to training and development. That said, I think what routinely gets ignored are many possible negative impacts of leaving early, including:
1) A lack of playing time stunting motivation
2) Limited early success leading to player movement, thus necessitating learning new systems and playing with new teammates and for new coaches, never sticking long enough to truly develop in one place
3) The negative impact on confidence in playing against superior competition, and
4) The possibility of a much smaller "second contract" - the place where most guys drafted outside of the top 10 go from wealthy to rich

There are plenty of examples of players who have developed and turned into NBA stars. But for everyone one of those, there are also the Austin Daye's of the world. I am convinced that Austin could have had a long and productive career in the NBA given his skillset and the growth of the stretch 4. Instead, I think Austin fell victim to some if not all of the above issues.

NBA teams draft on potential, but they are swinging for the fences when they do so. They are perfectly content to draft 3 or 4 "high potential" guys over the course of a few years and hope that 1 sticks...impervious by others floundering.

Insightful post 24, thanks. Good stuff.

MDABE80
12-06-2017, 08:31 PM
Him and Zach should of stayed.

lolol I know I know!! We know, we know!!

willandi
12-06-2017, 08:51 PM
And yet we are playing him at the five

Just like Heytfelt and many others. If you are big enough, you play the 5, even though Zags are actually playing 2 fours and no 5's.

seacatfan
12-06-2017, 10:01 PM
Many teams don't have a true 5. Who were Villanova's big men and how big were they?

WallaWallaZag
12-06-2017, 11:47 PM
Many teams don't have a true 5. Who were Villanova's big men and how big were they?

spellman and paschall both bigger than jw3...really besides the point though...what does matter is that zags are utilizing jw3 too much like a center and he doesn't excel in that role.
he's an awesome complementary 4 to a true post...which allows him to attack everything weakside on both o and d

Bogozags
12-07-2017, 04:14 AM
I didn't see any pros out there last night for GU. Tillie needs to find an engine like the Bonus. Way too surfer dude, cool for school. JW will join Goss in Europe. Rui is 2 years away. If at all. That's it for now.

Yes there were none on the floor from GU...

JWIII is a super person and a pretty good athlete; however, he is just a tweener...too small for an NBA-4 and no shot for an NBA-3...he will play overseas...maybe Europe!

Rui is one of the most athletic players we have ever had and I watch him with enthusiasm but in doing so, I see him being pretty mechanical on offence with his passes - he knows where to be on the court and will make a pass because that is where he passes the ball during practice as he knows the recipient of the pass will be there but does not "see" the defence and he has been lucky with many of his passes...

Rui has a long ways to go and as Zags11 stated he needs to improve on defence...he is a four year player today!

jazzdelmar
12-07-2017, 04:17 AM
Yes there were none on the floor from GU...

JWIII is a super person and a pretty good athlete; however, he is just a tweener...too small for an NBA-4 and no shot for an NBA-3...he will play overseas...maybe Europe!

Rui is one of the most athletic players we have ever had and I watch him with enthusiasm but in doing so, I see him being pretty mechanical on offence with his passes - he knows where to be on the court and will make a pass because that is where he passes the ball during practice as he knows the recipient of the pass will be there but does not "see" the defence and he has been lucky with many of his passes...

Rui has a long ways to go and as Zags11 stated he needs to improve on defence...he is a four year player today!

Bo: Are you a Brit? "Defence?" :)

vandalzag
12-07-2017, 05:08 AM
Surely, when it comes to empirical evidence of talent, you’re not comparing Rui today with Collins one year ago, when I was already seeing him as a one and done?

Not at all. But nobody (not even you) saw Collins as a Lottery pick this time last year. Too difficult to predict what the NBA is looking for, especially when you are talking length and athletic ability. That being said neither looks remotely ready if you look at just the Nova game, but then again neither looked much like a D1 player during the Nova game either.

bballbeachbum
12-07-2017, 02:04 PM
spellman and paschall both bigger than jw3...really besides the point though...what does matter is that zags are utilizing jw3 too much like a center and he doesn't excel in that role.
he's an awesome complementary 4 to a true post...which allows him to attack everything weakside on both o and d

on that observation, one thing Few used to do is get Matt, and other guards, down there pretty effectively; wonder how Zach is in the low block reading the double and initiating the O?

seems like JIII's ball fakes haven't been getting guys off their feet or off balance under the rim into the teeth of the D. hope to see him earn good position so he can catch and explode more when they do go to him down there. Idk about the NBA stuff, but would like to see him play in his strongest role to be best judged by the masses

bballbeachbum
12-07-2017, 02:08 PM
and if Few keeps using him as he has because the team needs him to battle down there, and JIII keeps taking up position to battle for the team down there and keep working things out, respect