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raise the zag
11-24-2017, 06:51 AM
is surprisingly not Tillie and J3; playing together, that is.

They are certainly our most talented and best players, yet our least effective combo.

Tillie still needs to be unleashed on offense, and J3 needs to start hitting foul shots and show more moves, and both need to play a ton. So much of our success relies on these two guys bringing their bouncy energy, toughness, and play making.

That said, in ALL 4 games, our most efficient lineup, especially defensively, has been Larsen combined with either Tillie or J3.

Its when the team has extended leads, stopped runs, drew most fouls, and much better defensively. Not necessarily on rebounding, but offensive fluidity improves with Larsen side by side with one of them.

Not saying Jakob should start, or even log more mins, just pointing out Tillie/J3 isn't our best DUO in terms of passing and defending. At least not yet...

Its a conundrum, as I want both Killian and Williams III on the floor as much as possible, but the zone, passing, defense, and drawing fouls improves immensely when Larsen is paired with either of them.

former1dog
11-24-2017, 07:01 AM
I was thinking exactly the same thing. I predict that we’ll see Larsen start and Tillie moved to the wing within the next month. Kispert will move to first off the bench.

bballbeachbum
11-24-2017, 07:18 AM
I was thinking exactly the same thing. I predict that we’ll see Larsen start and Tillie moved to the wing within the next month. Kispert will move to first off the bench.

versatile talented group, just hope they all stay healthy!
Larsen has been a force in the zone both 2-3 and 3-2
imo, for Larsen to start effectively, his M2M matchup has to make sense unless Few wants to start games in the zone for him; think Kispert has to expect teams will test him on D early and often until he makes them stop trying him

soccerdud
11-24-2017, 07:24 AM
I was thinking exactly the same thing. I predict that we’ll see Larsen start and Tillie moved to the wing within the next month. Kispert will move to first off the bench.

This is not better. This is just more of the same... forcing someone to play out of position because we get stuck on "who are our best players?" rather than "what's our best lineup?"

(Also, to my eyes, Kispert is clearly one of our 5 best players overall and has the ideal skillset, physical attributes, and style for the position in Few's system. Mark my words: if Kispert's healthy, he's our starting 3 until he's gone.)

None of Tillie, JW3, and Larsen are equipped to be the third ballhandler and perimeter playmaker that Few expects out of his 3. Yeah, Tillie is slightly closer to that than Wiltjer was two years ago, but it's the same concept and I'm betting Few learned his lesson there. Additionally, when you only have 3 post players, I don't think you can start them all due to depth/rotational issues.

I doubt Few will start Larsen anytime soon, but I hope he continues to get increasing minutes, as I think many of our best lineups clearly include him.

former1dog
11-24-2017, 07:30 AM
This is not better. This is just more of the same... forcing someone to play out of position because we get stuck on "who are our best players?" rather than "what's our best lineup?"

None of Tillie, JW3, and Larsen are equipped to be the third ballhandler and perimeter playmaker that Few expects out of his 3. Yeah, Tillie is slightly closer to that than Wiltjer was two years ago, but same concept and I'm betting Few learned his lesson there. Additionally, when you only have 3 post players, I don't think you can start them due to depth/rotational issues.

I doubt Few will start Larsen anytime soon, but I hope he continues to get increasing minutes, as I think many of our best lineups clearly include him.


Respectfully, I disagree. Tillie is definitely equipped to play the 3 and it’s his natural position at the next level.

Starting Larsen allows Williams to play his natural position as well.

gonzagafan62
11-24-2017, 07:47 AM
Wait, I said the same thing last week and nobody agreed with me haha

JPtheBeasta
11-24-2017, 07:48 AM
It’s fine with me we if we keep starting Tillie and JW3. If the other team gameplans for them- and they are an atypical front court to plan for- Larsen is a very good change up. I feel like the Zags have pulled away when Larsen has been in the game.
Williams was defensively bothered by the bigger player (Wesson?) and his baby hook fell short several times. It’s nice to have an answer for the thicker post players.

soccerdud
11-24-2017, 07:56 AM
Respectfully, I disagree. Tillie is definitely equipped to play the 3 and it’s his natural position at the next level.

Starting Larsen allows Williams to play his natural position as well.

I agree with you loving Tillie and wanting Larsen to start, but disagree pretty strongly about the likely (and ideal) lineup outcomes.

NBA 3 = swingman = slasher, which generally require quicks and handles that Tillie hasn't shown but will hopefully develop. That's not at all his "natural" style or skillset at this point.

In Few's offense the three is primarily a perimeter-oriented 3rd ballhandler who needs to take care of the ball, and be a consistent threat to either shoot (Mathews) or drive (Wesley) from the 3 point line-- oh, and our current starting 3 already does both better than T. This is because in Few's sets, the 3 almost never receives the ball inside the arc unless it's a rare back cut or offensive rebound. Tillie is not this type of player. Tillie is a junkyard dog style 4 who is most effective as both a shooter and a passer from the high post or after setting a pick, will lead us in rebounding, has a variety of shot types inside the key, and occasionally takes open 3s. You don't have to run plays for him -- but you absolutely don't want him spending most of his time hanging out at the three point line and running a weave w/ Perks and Silas (against a smaller and quicker defender) at this point.

Additionally, 3 is already where our team had the greatest depth while posts and pg have the least. It doesn't make sense to shoehorn our 1 or 1a pf into another position when that would leave Rui as our top "post" off the bench... and Rui is actually a much more natural 3 and less of a post presence than Tillie. In my mind, this would be a positional swap of both Rui and Tillie to positions they are worse at, exacerbate our major post depth issue, take our best rebounder out of the key, and take our best 3 out of the starting lineup -- all because people can't come to terms with the idea of Tillie coming of the bench, but still playing 30ish mins per game. Makes NO sense to me.

MDABE80
11-24-2017, 09:15 AM
It’s fine with me we if we keep starting Tillie and JW3. If the other team gameplans for them- and they are an atypical front court to plan for- Larsen is a very good change up. I feel like the Zags have pulled away when Larsen has been in the game.
Williams was defensively bothered by the bigger player (Wesson?) and his baby hook fell short several times. It’s nice to have an answer for the thicker post players.

Yes.........this is exactly what's been working. One thing is that is preserves flexibility aimed at what type of team we play. Larsen is much better than some thought. As a Frosh, he's quite the find. Bigger than thought with a nose for the ball. , Great rebounder and goes hard after the ball and I noticed he's diving on the floor . Decent shooter with a soft touch. J3 played a terrific game last night despite for his TO's. Tillie did too especially on the boards.
We're lucky he landed here. As with last year, there will be some games/situations when all 3 bigs are playing simultaneously.

jazzdelmar
11-24-2017, 10:02 AM
Agree....Tils and 3 are not an optimum frontcourt.....but Few seems very reluctant to trust Larsen yet. As well, I wd much rather see Jeremy get in before Rui.....he's a player....

BurgessEraZag
11-24-2017, 10:03 AM
I'm overawed by you young guys and your analysis on the "particulars." But the big picture for me is while no one doubts the skill and ability of our starters, the best thing for me and our success is that there is very little drop off when the second 4 or 5 players get on the floor. Someone else said we're deep. Wow, fun year coming, oops, it's here.

Goshzagit
11-24-2017, 11:29 AM
Agree....Tils and 3 are not an optimum frontcourt.....but Few seems very reluctant to trust Larsen yet. As well, I wd much rather see Jeremy get in before Rui.....he's a player....

Completely agree. And honestly, it may never fully click or come together for Rui.

He has improved, no doubt, but in some ways more lost on offense than ever.

Rui is a talented player, yet I question his IQ to be effective for us.

He would almost be better as a spot up shooter all over the court. I think he has a nice shot, use him like we did Barnam. Shoot over people in 4-5 min bursts.

Love his attributes, but isn't making the players around him better.

Maybe tonight is the night? I keep hoping/wishing/waiting.

He has at least 4 offensive fouls this season too.

Skimhvn
11-24-2017, 01:19 PM
Plz use Rui as a pure shooter who can also do other things.
An only solid weapon of all he has is shooting.
It may be the best now.

gueastcoast
11-24-2017, 02:32 PM
Agree with a lot of the OP but also think there's merit in the "changeup/very little dropoff" approach noted by others. JWIII thrived with big Shem on the opposite block last year, while that doesn't work the same way across from Tills I'd like to see more high/low with Killian at the high post -- I think they can work effectively big to big in that configuration.

Zagricultural
11-24-2017, 03:18 PM
J-3 and Tillie are 4's. Larsen is a 5. Zags offense is always better with a true 5 on the floor, however it doesn't really matter who starts as we need all three of them to man those two spots. The idea of playing all three at once for any extended run is pure foolishness. Foul trouble would be enormous!

I personally would like to see more Wade. He's an elite shooter, and we'll need him.

zagamatic
11-24-2017, 05:48 PM
Until Larsen gets used to the game speed and can be relied on to keep the fouls low, I just don't see him starting barring something unexpected. But I sure do like his play, very impressed with him so far.

Coach Crazy
11-24-2017, 06:08 PM
Larsen got 21 minutes last night and was stellar. He's getting more trust.


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Goshzagit
11-24-2017, 06:19 PM
Larsen got 21 minutes last night and was stellar. He's getting more trust.


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Larsen maybe played 15 mins, and that could be a stretch.

I agree he is gaining more trust but no way he logged over 20 mins last night...

jazzdelmar
11-24-2017, 07:26 PM
Box sez 16 mins.

cggonzaga
11-24-2017, 07:49 PM
Completely agree. And honestly, it may never fully click or come together for Rui.

He has improved, no doubt, but in some ways more lost on offense than ever.

Rui is a talented player, yet I question his IQ to be effective for us.

He would almost be better as a spot up shooter all over the court. I think he has a nice shot, use him like we did Barnam. Shoot over people in 4-5 min bursts.

Love his attributes, but isn't making the players around him better.

Maybe tonight is the night? I keep hoping/wishing/waiting.

He has at least 4 offensive fouls this season too.

I’ll go back to an argument I made a couple years ago about Josh and Silas. Not everybody starts out their careers as stars. Sometimes it takes a year or two or even 3. Rui still hasn’t played much basketball in his life. All that said, Rui is off to a fine start. I like Jones and the way he’s played but would still rather have Rui and his potential on the floor.

All the talk of changing lineups and this guy playing over that guy is off base when you’re winning. I think the staff has performed masterfully so far this year.