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Zagceo
11-18-2017, 09:09 PM
....when someone missed defensive play....got vocal

bballbeachbum
11-18-2017, 09:11 PM
....when someone missed defensive play....got vocal

awesome. the whole backcourt boarded int he 2nd half after basically not doing it int he first half. Silas big leader there too

gonzagafan62
11-18-2017, 09:19 PM
Can't disagree with him. He's right. Senior leadership is where he's extremely good and I'm glad he's brought that to the table. Ohio State is a big game next weekend and he's really going to have to bring it again. Go zags!

JPtheBeasta
11-18-2017, 09:43 PM
Can't disagree with him. He's right. Senior leadership is where he's extremely good and I'm glad he's brought that to the table. Ohio State is a big game next weekend and he's really going to have to bring it again. Go zags!

I was worried that he wasn't being more assertive in the first two games offensively. It good to hear that he is asserting himself on the defensive end. That said, Melson had some big buckets this game, too.

(If he and the rest of the team could quit trying to pull off spin moves for awhile I wouldn't mind)

cggonzaga
11-18-2017, 11:03 PM
Melson has been great so far this year. He played shutdown defense in the 2nd half tonight.

gonzagafan62
11-19-2017, 07:07 AM
I was worried that he wasn't being more assertive in the first two games offensively. It good to hear that he is asserting himself on the defensive end. That said, Melson had some big buckets this game, too.

(If he and the rest of the team could quit trying to pull off spin moves for awhile I wouldn't mind)

For sure. I agree with that

Zags_Fanatic
11-19-2017, 10:34 AM
It was clear that Silas was the leader of his high school team at Jefferson when most of the team got suspended before the final and Melson rallied the troops to a title. Glad to see him embrace the role now, with Perkins and J3 being more soft-spoken Melson seems like the right choice.

MDABE80
11-19-2017, 10:42 AM
Silas has yet to assert himself. Right now, there is no leader. We sure could use one. If Silas is quietly asserting himself, so be it. Often it's the player who logs the most minutes......not this year. The available minutes are chopped up pretty well now. No doubt who was the leader last year. Few has a problem. This is a big issue.

basketballzag
11-19-2017, 11:06 AM
For sure. I agree with that

Melson has evolved and last night was one of those games that he took over in a very similar fashion that Pangos and NWG did in games of the past. He looks really good.

ZagNative
11-19-2017, 11:24 AM
Abe, you're hopeless, just hopeless. Anyone who couldn't see Silas exercising leadership last night ... well, just hopeless .... Jeez, you've just got to harp on a different kid every week.


Silas has yet to assert himself. Right now, there is no leader. We sure could use one. If Silas is quietly asserting himself, so be it. Often it's the player who logs the most minutes......not this year. The available minutes are chopped up pretty well now. No doubt who was the leader last year. Few has a problem. This is a big issue.

Bogozags
11-19-2017, 11:29 AM
Silas has yet to assert himself.

Doc I agree, Silas has yet to really assert himself. I have not seen anyone step up and take a leadership role to this point in the season; however, we are playing super defence and that seems to get the "juices" flowing on both sides of the court so the TEAM just seems to be doing quite well without a "leader!" Time will tell if there is a single "leader" or a different leader each game...so far we have had a different leading scorer in each game...NWG was a very unique take-charge player and to date, that type of player has yet to emerge.

I do see CK asserting himself more and more each game...as he gets more games under his belt, we will see him so relaxed playing at this level that we won't think of him as a freshman! He is going to become so difficult for defenders to guard as he easily has the ability to score from outside and take the ball to the rim...

GonzagasaurusFlex
11-19-2017, 11:40 AM
Special week for Silas Melson as he gets to return to his hometown as a senior and lead the Zags into the PK80, a once in a [Phil Knight’s] lifetime early season tournament that will be the highest exposure event in college hoops this week.

Enjoy the moment Silas...you deserve it after all the hard work, humility and determination you have displayed throughout your career. Let’s go Zags!

MDABE80
11-19-2017, 11:55 AM
Personal attacks ZN. Nothing new for you when it comes to me. Like I care?...

More to the point though......... Go back and read what I wrote. It's obvious we do not have a leader right now. Nigel was a leader as was Pangos. We don't have a leader ( those two were real leaders....FYI it takes more than points to be a leader) right now but we need one. As I wrote, if Silas is that guy, so be it. Feeling sad over Maynard leaving dear? Don't take your frustrations out on me.......But remember.one game doesn't make a leader. Thanks for your silly comment.
And I apologize to the board . It's disruptive to the topic to have to defend myself. I'm not happy to have to respond.

2wiceright
11-19-2017, 12:36 PM
Abe, you're hopeless, just hopeless. Anyone who couldn't see Silas exercising leadership last night ... well, just hopeless .... Jeez, you've just got to harp on a different kid every week.

Agree 100 Percent ZagNative. Very few longtime posters need the attention only negativity brings. At least Josh wasn't mentioned in 'this' post. Melson is Melson, but surely is taking over the reigns of this team! That being said I hope the good doc can get back to his usual insightful posts- so much more positives and even constructive observations to talk about- I miss that Abe....

zag buddy
11-19-2017, 12:54 PM
What's with the personal attacks when a poster posts their opinion. What is this forum for? Enjoy the differences. Can you not find a grain of truth in each posters post and not focus on your own opinion so much that you can not see the point the poster is making. My God, where has logic and reason gone. When did logic and reason flee and emotional reasoning take over- I feel there fore it must be true, Bull sheet.

DixieZag
11-19-2017, 12:57 PM
Third game of the year under our belts. Not unusual for a team "finding itself." Yes, we had Pangos (and Bell, who led in a different way), and then NWG - those are the exceptions, the guys that seem to have been born leading the pre-school class.

Most of the time, leadership grows organically early in the season and I think that's what we're seeing here. I think we'll have more than one, JWIII in the frontcourt, and Silas or Perk in the backcourt.

I don't think it's our highest priority right now, nor a huge problem. Getting everyone on the same page defensively (Kispert/Rui/Larsen) seems quite a bit more important. But, that's just me.

cggonzaga
11-19-2017, 01:55 PM
Third game of the year under our belts. Not unusual for a team "finding itself." Yes, we had Pangos (and Bell, who led in a different way), and then NWG - those are the exceptions, the guys that seem to have been born leading the pre-school class.

Most of the time, leadership grows organically early in the season and I think that's what we're seeing here. I think we'll have more than one, JWIII in the frontcourt, and Silas or Perk in the backcourt.

I don't think it's our highest priority right now, nor a huge problem. Getting everyone on the same page defensively (Kispert/Rui/Larsen) seems quite a bit more important. But, that's just me.

Exactly right and well said.

cggonzaga
11-19-2017, 02:04 PM
What's with the personal attacks when a poster posts their opinion. What is this forum for? Enjoy the differences. Can you not find a grain of truth in each posters post and not focus on your own opinion so much that you can not see the point the poster is making. My God, where has logic and reason gone. When did logic and reason flee and emotional reasoning take over- I feel there fore it must be true, Bull sheet.

So what you’re saying is it’s ok for people to post their opinions but not ok for people to post opinions that challenge those opinions? We’re on an internet message board. If you don’t have your big boy/girl pants on then you probably shouldn’t be here.

P.s. you do know what a troll is right?

zag buddy
11-19-2017, 02:08 PM
Cg counter opinions are great when substantiated with facts. If no facts are presented to counter another opinion it is just a shouting match - emotional again, leading to personal attacks.

cggonzaga
11-19-2017, 02:17 PM
Cg counter opinions are great when substantiated with facts. If no facts are presented to counter another opinion it is just a shouting match - emotional again, leading to personal attacks.

I understand zb but what were the facts in the op’s argument?

JPtheBeasta
11-19-2017, 02:40 PM
Is it possible that leadership can come somewhere from the PG position. And that is in reference to on-the-court stuff. We have no idea how much leadership Perkins shows off the court in class, practice and socially with the team. Perkins also isn’t a senior- this is JW3 and Melson’s year.

NWG is a rare player, but when rolled his ankle we found out the hard way that we relied on him too much, in my opinion. This year’s team might need to do this by committee, and might be better for it.

jazzdelmar
11-19-2017, 03:22 PM
What happened to Maynard? Self exile?

cggonzaga
11-19-2017, 03:29 PM
What happened to Maynard? Self exile?

Think so unfortunately.

bartruff1
11-19-2017, 03:34 PM
I have always preferred to lead from behind....but that is because I like behinds.....

Melson is a warrior ....has been his whole life as a basketball player.....he has always had to battle and he is determined to win....doesn't need the acclimation ...

I miss Maynard, he sure was right about Kispert...

ZagNative
11-19-2017, 03:48 PM
I miss Maynard, he sure was right about Kispert...I'm going to be so sad if Maynard doesn't post anymore. He's one of the smartest posters around. H's a passionate guy, though, so I wouldn't be surprised if he decided to take a break from guboards.

webspinnre
11-19-2017, 03:55 PM
Leadership also doesn't have to be a single person. It can come from multiple sources. I'd love if we ended up with JWIII, Melson and Perkins all taking leadership roles.

zag buddy
11-19-2017, 04:56 PM
cg, first post is opinion with or without facts agree move on if not factually refute it.

jazzdelmar
11-19-2017, 05:14 PM
I'm going to be so sad if Maynard doesn't post anymore. He's one of the smartest posters around. H's a passionate guy, though, so I wouldn't be surprised if he decided to take a break from guboards.

He will always have the Quacks.

MDABE80
11-19-2017, 05:51 PM
[QUOTE=cggonzaga;1337971]So what you’re saying is it’s ok for people to post their opinions but not ok for people to post opinions that challenge those opinions? We’re on an internet message board. If you don’t have your big boy/girl pants on then you probably shouldn’t be here."
Except there was nothing BUT a personal attack.
You know what a personal attack is don't you??

thebigsmoove
11-19-2017, 06:01 PM
back to the discussion at hand, Silas definitely stepped up. He was very much the vocal leader last night and when others were not stepping up to hit the big shot, he did a few times towards the end of the first half and beginning of the 2nd half. Also had a couple of really important passes and steals when we needed it most. Si stepped up in a big way, he may not be the leading scorer or a stat stuffer in general, but he certainly does a lot of the little things that dont get a lot of attention. I also feel like Perk has stepped up to begin this year. While he may not be the most vocal guy on the court, he appears to be leading by example. I think our results this year will live and die by the ability of our seasoned backcourt.

cggonzaga
11-19-2017, 09:20 PM
[QUOTE=cggonzaga;1337971]So what you’re saying is it’s ok for people to post their opinions but not ok for people to post opinions that challenge those opinions? We’re on an internet message board. If you don’t have your big boy/girl pants on then you probably shouldn’t be here."
Except there was nothing BUT a personal attack.
You know what a personal attack is don't you??

I’m aware. They’re what you say about Josh and Silas constantly and generally without any merit. But keep crying for yourself. Poor abe.

maynard g krebs
11-20-2017, 12:00 AM
He will always have the Quacks.

Just for clarity: I still lurk regularly, and the Zags are my favorite team and will remain so, as they have been since a December night at Hec Ed in 1997.

My issue is with uneven censorship by mods when I defend my second favorite team from some petty fans here. Leaves a bad taste.

Abe, I really don't think ZN's comment to you had anything to do with me. But I have a feeling you know that. And I agree w/ her that the bashing is tiresome. It's why I have you on ignore, which works till you're quoted.

Since I'm here, I'll make one comment. Josh Perkins is gonna be fine. I actually think he's a better fit for this group than NWG, because he's less ball dominant and more of a distributor, which will speed the development of Kispert and Norvell, who will be the best wing pair in GU history. I actually think the perimeter as a group will be better this year than last, in spite of their relative inexperience. The important losses from last year's team are in the post.

MDABE80
11-20-2017, 02:48 AM
Maynard...when Josh gets THIS group to the FF and manages the team as well as Nigel did for THAT team, we'll talk. Until then, have fun lurking. ZN will never get it with or without you as her staunch supporter. And it doesn't matter. Ya see, Nigel and Josh play different positions and play different game styles. We'll see . Further though, until somebody gets better, Josh is all we have. Silas is looking better though.

DixieZag
11-20-2017, 04:10 AM
Maynard...when Josh gets THIS group to the FF and manages the team as well as Nigel did for THAT team, we'll talk. Until then, have fun lurking. ZN will never get it with or without you as her staunch supporter. And it doesn't matter. Ya see, Nigel and Josh play different positions and play different game styles. We'll see . Further though, until somebody gets better, Josh is all we have. Silas is looking better though.

As I recall, there were six or seven other people on that team that went to the FF. NWG didn't go alone. NWG was a special player, a once a decade player, and you're requiring a good (sometimes great) PG named Perk take us to a FF (alone, apparently) before he becomes "good."?

Do you see that some people see that as an agenda?

I'm not attacking you, I'm noting that there seems to be a hump that you just won't get over. Jazz is tough on Perk, but he's tough on just about everyone not named Sabonis, :) and, I've heard Jazz praise Perkins when having had a great game.

Perk doesn't have NWG's floater (who does?) and can turn it over a little much - though getting better - but NWG wasn't anywhere near the shooter that Perkins has shown to be, and they both played decent defense, with Perk forcing turnovers at a good rate. We don't get to the FF w/o a Perk steal that got to Mathews last year.

It'll be interesting whether future guards must meet the NWG standard for you: "Until someone gets better, Josh is all we have." I'd throw out there that Josh is getting better before your eyes but will never be enough.

GonzagasaurusFlex
11-20-2017, 04:41 AM
Maynard...when Josh gets THIS group to the FF and manages the team as well as Nigel did for THAT team, we'll talk. Until then, have fun lurking. ZN will never get it with or without you as her staunch supporter. And it doesn't matter. Ya see, Nigel and Josh play different positions and play different game styles. We'll see . Further though, until somebody gets better, Josh is all we have. Silas is looking better though.

Sigh...

CarolinaZagFan
11-20-2017, 05:58 AM
[QUOTE=MDABE80;1338008]

I’m aware. They’re what you say about Josh and Silas constantly and generally without any merit. But keep crying for yourself. Poor abe.

:000tens:

Reborn
11-20-2017, 06:32 AM
I have liked Silas Melson a lot from the very beginning. I think some of you may remember when I said that a friend of mine saw him play in high school and said that he had NBA potential. Boy did I take a hit for saying that. Yes, he struggled that year, However, as the years have passed he has steadily improved and has played a key role on any team, a damn good bench player and maybe the best defender on the team. It's been really cool for me and any Melson supporter over the year, to see him playing so well this year. Yes. He is going to be a great leader on this team.

I totally agree with Dixiezag that the season is early so let's take it easy. So far the team looks good, but they have a long long ways to go. This games this week are huge, and I expect Gonzaga to do well. They always seem to do well in these early season tournaments. There is a lot of pride on this team, and a lot of toughness. And I understand why Few had positive things to say after the Utah State game. He knows that the season is long, and along the way there are many tests that a team will have. I felt that the Utah State game was a test and Few believes the team passed it.

I am also really liking Perkins play at the point this year. As has been said in some ways he's better than NWG was. I think he's a better passer than Goss was. I think he will average close to 13 or 14 points a game this year and that is really good, especially when he is a pass first point guard. The Zags have some first class scorers on this team so lets keep getting them the ball.

billyberu
11-20-2017, 07:09 AM
If Morrison says that Silas is the leader that carries orders of magnitude more weight than Abe and his coterie of curmudgeons littering the boards with their self-righteous indignation.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

TexasZagFan
11-20-2017, 07:19 AM
Must be a shortage of coffee in Zag Nation this morning.

This season will truly be a journey, and we've barely left the parking lot.

TheGonzagaFactor
11-20-2017, 07:28 AM
Must be a shortage of coffee in Zag Nation this morning.

This season will truly be a journey, and we've barely left the parking lot.

This board is unbearable. Just the same few people fighting over and over, all caused by a couple trolls.

OP: Morrison says Melson is a leader after showing leadership

Abe: Nuh uh, not true *cites no evidence*

*cries about personal attack*

*board goes off rails*

Rinse, repeat.

scrooner
11-20-2017, 08:15 AM
Maynard...when Josh gets THIS group to the FF and manages the team as well as Nigel did for THAT team, we'll talk.

That's quite a bar you've set there.

titopoet
11-20-2017, 08:38 AM
I have wanted to start a thread about Silas because I think is one of the most underrated all-time great Zags. He is probably the best perimeter defender in Zag history (I think he passed up Gary Bell Jr.) He does all the dirty work of back screens and such. And he is just a winner. No other guard in Zag history has played and won in as many tournament games. No other Zag has played in two elite 8 games, 3 sweet sixteens, a final four and championship game. He has always been willing to sacrifice for his team like when he gave up his redshirt season when the team needed it. Watching him grow as a player and man has been a privilege. Whether it has been improving his 3 point shooting or his drives or working himself into an elite defender, anyone can see the kid is such a hard worker. It is not surprising that he has emerged as a leader of this team. I know I will miss Silas when he graduates. He is a textbook definition of a great leader and the young Zags should look to him as what be a Zag means.

dadair
11-20-2017, 08:52 AM
I've never been on a basketball court in a serious way and I'm curious about the nature of team leadership. Wasn't it Dickau who raised the leadership issue Saturday? He said the PG normally takes that role and so acts as the coach's surrogate on the floor (bring to mind for me images of Few huddling court-side with Pangos and, later, with NWG before sending them back into the fray). If the PG is not the team leader does that blunt the coach's ability to impact play? And another, sort-of related question: Does true leadership show itself more off the court than on? Both? In the short interview with Josh they ran during that segment, he admitted he struggles with saying hard things to players that need to be said. Seems that ability must be key to the leadership role.

Birddog
11-20-2017, 08:57 AM
I have wanted to start a thread about Silas because I think is one of the most underrated all-time great Zags. He is probably the best perimeter defender in Zag history (I think he passed up Gary Bell Jr.) He does all the dirty work of back screens and such. And he is just a winner. No other guard in Zag history has played and won in as many tournament games. No other Zag has played in two elite 8 games, 3 sweet sixteens, a final four and championship game. He has always been willing to sacrifice for his team like when he gave up his redshirt season when the team needed it. Watching him grow as a player and man has been a privilege. Whether it has been improving his 3 point shooting or his drives or working himself into an elite defender, anyone can see the kid is such a hard worker. It is not surprising that he has emerged as a leader of this team. I know I will miss Silas when he graduates. He is a textbook definition of a great leader and the young Zags should look to him as what be a Zag means.

Totally agree with this, good post!

titopoet
11-20-2017, 09:11 AM
I've never been on a basketball court in a serious way and I'm curious about the nature of team leadership. Wasn't it Dickau who raised the leadership issue Saturday? He said the PG normally takes that role and so acts as the coach's surrogate on the floor (bring to mind for me images of Few huddling court-side with Pangos and, later, with NWG before sending them back into the fray). If the PG is not the team leader does that blunt the coach's ability to impact play? And another, sort-of related question: Does true leadership show itself more off the court than on? Both? In the short interview with Josh they ran during that segment, he admitted he struggles with saying hard things to players that need to be said. Seems that ability must be key to the leadership role.

I little of both. I saw Silas bark at Corey for leaving his man freestyling for a steal or sagging for help when it was not needed for what seemed the umpteenth time in the first half. In the second half, Corey stayed with his man on the perimeter. The change was a marked difference. Utah State shot 8 3s in the first half and hit just two as the Zags took control. The freshman learned and the senior led.

WallaWallaZag
11-20-2017, 09:22 AM
i think melson already is a leader on defense, but i don't think he can become the overall team leader that this group needs without upping his game on offense...it's very very difficult in high level basketball for the team leader to not be one of the clear-cut best players, especially if not the point guard. last year, zags were spoiled with two great leaders in karnowski and nwg, but nigel actually stunted the potential leadership growth of perkins.

great leaders in ncaa div 1 basketball are almost always alpha dogs. this current team might be too balanced...tillie might be the best player but he's not really an alpha dog type...at least not yet. i think kispert is an alpha-type, but he's not ready yet...he's good, but he's no durant/carmelo capable of carrying a team in march...almost have to be one-and-done talent to be team leader as a freshman on a top 25 team with established upperclassmen.

Reborn
11-20-2017, 09:54 AM
I have wanted to start a thread about Silas because I think is one of the most underrated all-time great Zags. He is probably the best perimeter defender in Zag history (I think he passed up Gary Bell Jr.) He does all the dirty work of back screens and such. And he is just a winner. No other guard in Zag history has played and won in as many tournament games. No other Zag has played in two elite 8 games, 3 sweet sixteens, a final four and championship game. He has always been willing to sacrifice for his team like when he gave up his redshirt season when the team needed it. Watching him grow as a player and man has been a privilege. Whether it has been improving his 3 point shooting or his drives or working himself into an elite defender, anyone can see the kid is such a hard worker. It is not surprising that he has emerged as a leader of this team. I know I will miss Silas when he graduates. He is a textbook definition of a great leader and the young Zags should look to him as what be a Zag means.

Great post. I agree with everything you said, and being the poet that you are, you said it with elegance.

MDABE80
11-20-2017, 10:53 AM
Just go see what Few said last week and read what Bud Withers wrote. There's no real need to argue it anymore. The only true PG we have this year is out of service, likely out of shape and is nursing a bum shoulder.
This past Sept, when the SG and PGs were being evaluated nationally, not one of our guys were mentioned.

Josh is a SG and Silas is too.. Forget Nigel. Think Pangos who was a very good PG for us.
It's the way things worked out this year. Nothing personal ...no attacking the kids.As far as leadership goes, something more than a Morrison opinion is needed. As the season progresses, we'll see who leads.

It wouldn't be the first time we were without a Santangelo, Pangos, Nigel type.............e can still win games. Defense is one of those things to be developed.

To be clear though, I'm not down on any of these kids. It's just not what we usually have. Season's young, let's see what develops.

bartruff1
11-20-2017, 11:28 AM
I haven't seen any evidence that Wade is a true point guard....

Josh is our point guard and " there is no real need to argue it anymore"....

and as always much of the teams success depends on the point guard...and IMHO they and he will be fine...

allbusiness_zag
11-20-2017, 12:10 PM
This board is unbearable. Just the same few people fighting over and over, all caused by a couple trolls.

OP: Morrison says Melson is a leader after showing leadership

Abe: Nuh uh, not true *cites no evidence*

*cries about personal attack*

*board goes off rails*

Rinse, repeat.

+1

cggonzaga
11-20-2017, 12:15 PM
i think melson already is a leader on defense, but i don't think he can become the overall team leader that this group needs without upping his game on offense...it's very very difficult in high level basketball for the team leader to not be one of the clear-cut best players, especially if not the point guard. last year, zags were spoiled with two great leaders in karnowski and nwg, but nigel actually stunted the potential leadership growth of perkins.

great leaders in ncaa div 1 basketball are almost always alpha dogs. this current team might be too balanced...tillie might be the best player but he's not really an alpha dog type...at least not yet. i think kispert is an alpha-type, but he's not ready yet...he's good, but he's no durant/carmelo capable of carrying a team in march...almost have to be one-and-done talent to be team leader as a freshman on a top 25 team with established upperclassmen.

Not sure what more you want from Silas offensively or everything. He’s filling up the stat sheet so far; 12ppg 4rpg 3apg 2 steals pg. He’s shooting 41% from 3 and hasn’t missed a free throw. He’s also averaging less than a turnover a game while averaging 29mpg so far.

hooter73
11-20-2017, 12:42 PM
Silas is jsut one of those that will be forever undervalued.

maynard g krebs
11-20-2017, 12:49 PM
As I recall, there were six or seven other people on that team that went to the FF. NWG didn't go alone. NWG was a special player, a once a decade player, and you're requiring a good (sometimes great) PG named Perk take us to a FF (alone, apparently) before he becomes "good."?

Do you see that some people see that as an agenda?

I'm not attacking you, I'm noting that there seems to be a hump that you just won't get over. Jazz is tough on Perk, but he's tough on just about everyone not named Sabonis, :) and, I've heard Jazz praise Perkins when having had a great game.

Perk doesn't have NWG's floater (who does?) and can turn it over a little much - though getting better - but NWG wasn't anywhere near the shooter that Perkins has shown to be, and they both played decent defense, with Perk forcing turnovers at a good rate. We don't get to the FF w/o a Perk steal that got to Mathews last year.

It'll be interesting whether future guards must meet the NWG standard for you: "Until someone gets better, Josh is all we have." I'd throw out there that Josh is getting better before your eyes but will never be enough.

Darn. People keep quoting Abe, and the vortex sucks me back in. Guess I'll just have to scratch out my eyeballs.

Zags made the final four in spite of NWG's 2/10 shooting and FIVE TURNOVERS v West Virginia. (Followed by his 5/17 performance in the biggest game). Perkins had one, if my memory's correct. They did that because they had the best front line college basketball has seen since the early entry era started, including arguably two of the best 4 or 5 centers in college basketball.

Josh does not have the same front line to work with. Not remotely close. So the standard of a final 4 is kind of ridiculous, to a rational mind. And I didn't say he's as good as NWG overall. He's not. I just said I think he's a better fit for the current group, as he's more of a distributor by nature, which will fit the style/strengths of this year's group, and facilitate their development better.

I'm gone now unless you bring my name up again, abie. Buh-bye.

MDABE80
11-20-2017, 01:25 PM
You conveniently forget a few things. LIKE the WHOLE body of work Nigel put in. Nigel got us to the FF, S16 and E 8. Let's not forget that. Nobody with a brain can Cheap points to be made perhaps? Disingenuous points too?
And when it comes to a FF........it's THEE GOLD standard no matter what you want to think.
Then again, we've gotten some E8's and S16' s I'm awfully proud of.

You points are infused with confusion.

For all of you, I think we have two good SG's in Josh and Silas. They both do the best they can. Neither is a Santangelo, a Pangos or a Nigel. And they're never going to be. I'm at peace with it. Meanwhile, I'm not so sure they have to be any of those 3 to be successful. Season's young and every team is different.. Or something great but unforseen may happen.

I'm going to admit this----->the E8 and FF ruined me. I want that every year. We have enough talent on this present team to get to each of those. But it' a guards game in college. My opinion is that's where we're coming up short....for now.
Go Zags. (FF or bust!)

MileHigh
11-20-2017, 01:54 PM
Just go see what Few said last week and read what Bud Withers wrote. There's no real need to argue it anymore. The only true PG we have this year is out of service, likely out of shape and is nursing a bum shoulder.


You have been saying JP is a sg and not a pg pretty consistently for the last year, and I am just curious what the difference is in your mind. The game has changed where the 1-5 designation have pretty much blurred into guards, wings and posts, where the perimeter guys are pretty interchangeable, but you like to define them as 1-5 so I thought I would inquire.
Further, what skill does Wade possess that JP and SM dont that makes him a "true" pg and not them? And when have you seen it? The kid hasnt even played one minute of meaningful time yet for the Zags.
The traditional pg was a player that could defend the other teams lead guard, could handle the ball under pressure, and could get the team into their offensive sets. The better ones had great vision, could get the ball to their teammates where they liked to get it, and could score as well. And please don't give me the generic "can lead the team" because no one on this board (including me) has any clue who on the team the players follow and who on the team they roll their eyes at.
I would love to read your distinction between a sg and a pg

soccerdud
11-20-2017, 02:11 PM
This board is unbearable. Just the same few people fighting over and over, all caused by a couple trolls.

OP: Morrison says Melson is a leader after showing leadership

Abe: Nuh uh, not true *cites no evidence*

*cries about personal attack*

*board goes off rails*

Rinse, repeat.

to be fair, most of the people who are personally attacking abe DO bring up excellent points.

cggonzaga
11-20-2017, 03:12 PM
You have been saying JP is a sg and not a pg pretty consistently for the last year, and I am just curious what the difference is in your mind. The game has changed where the 1-5 designation have pretty much blurred into guards, wings and posts, where the perimeter guys are pretty interchangeable, but you like to define them as 1-5 so I thought I would inquire.
Further, what skill does Wade possess that JP and SM dont that makes him a "true" pg and not them? And when have you seen it? The kid hasnt even played one minute of meaningful time yet for the Zags.
The traditional pg was a player that could defend the other teams lead guard, could handle the ball under pressure, and could get the team into their offensive sets. The better ones had great vision, could get the ball to their teammates where they liked to get it, and could score as well. And please don't give me the generic "can lead the team" because no one on this board (including me) has any clue who on the team the players follow and who on the team they roll their eyes at.
I would love to read your distinction between a sg and a pg

Well duh MH, it's the "eye test"!

We know he considers Nigel, Dickau and Pangos "true" pg's. So let's look at the pg stats below. Also defensively, the other 3 players aren't in Josh's league but I digress.

Dickau 3.7apg 3topg
Pangos 3.8apg 1.6topg
Nigel 5apg 2.6topg
Josh 3.6apg 2topg

I'm not saying Josh is a better player than the other 3 mentioned but he certainly isn't far off. He's also definitely a pg, saying otherwise is ludicrous. With 2 years left he could even potentially improve his numbers which is likely as an upperclassman.

kitzbuel
11-20-2017, 03:26 PM
Well duh MH, it's the "eye test"!

We know he considers Nigel, Dickau and Pangos "true" pg's. So let's look at the pg stats below. Also defensively, the other 3 players aren't in Josh's league but I digress.

Dickau 3.7apg 3topg
Pangos 3.8apg 1.6topg
Nigel 5apg 2.6topg
Josh 3.6apg 2topg

I'm not saying Josh is a better player than the other 3 mentioned but he certainly isn't far off. He's also definitely a pg, saying otherwise is ludicrous. With 2 years left he could even potentially improve his numbers which is likely as an upperclassman.One thing that Few has always liked in his PGs is a vocal on-the-court coach. David Stockton, Pangos, and NWG all did that.

Perkins admittedly does not have that personality; he said that is a challenge for him in the interview during the last game.

I think his recognizing that weakness means that both he and Few know they need to focus on various ways to overcome that which is good. It takes a leader to be critical of himself so he can address weaknesses.

I think we are going to be fine and I look forward to how Josh and the team evolve from out of last year's shadow.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

MDABE80
11-20-2017, 03:48 PM
There's no point to continuing to review this../...Everyone has eyes. It's not Josh's numbers. It how he plays the game as a "PG". It's never going to be his numbers. As the season wears on, you see what you want to see......kid just doesn't manage a team like the others we hold in historic esteem. Good shooter. decent defense and I hope he scores 20 ppg. I also hope his 38% floor shooting improves. 3 pt shooting is very fine. But for now, there's nothing more to say.

MileHigh
11-20-2017, 04:17 PM
There's no point to continuing to review this../...Everyone has eyes. It's not Josh's numbers. It how he plays the game as a "PG". It's never going to be his numbers. As the season wears on, you see what you want to see......kid just doesn't manage a team like the others we hold in historic esteem. Good shooter. decent defense and I hope he scores 20 ppg. I also hope his 38% floor shooting improves. 3 pt shooting is very fine. But for now, there's nothing more to say.

So, in other words, he just doesnt "look like a pg" to you, so that makes him a sg! And saying he doesn't manage a team is about as nebulous as it gets. What does that mean? He doesnt get them in the right set? Doesnt get the big's the ball on the block? Doesn't talk on D? Players don't manage teams, coaches do. I guess if you are looking for that "coach on the floor" type then you are probably right, Josh isn't that guy. But neither is Russell Westbrook, or Steph Curry, Lonzo Ball, etc. Plenty of Pg's who arn't the heady, extension of the coach type. The best pg in college basketball last year, Dennis Smith, drove his coach nuts because he was so volatile and hard to predict, yet he was arguably the best pg in the country. I'm not comparing JP to these pros by any stretch,I'm just pointing out that your archaic view of what a pg is, or should be, isn't really shared by the modern basketball community