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Zagceo
08-01-2017, 07:10 AM
on UNC hearing Aug 16 and what could/should the NCAA do with Tar Heels?


Carolina is as defiant as ever as it heads into an NCAA hearing Aug. 16 in Nashville. Yes, there were academic problems, UNC has told the NCAA. But since these classes were also available to regular students, they didn’t violate NCAA rules, so this is none of your business, they’re arguing. LINK (https://pilotonline.com/sports/columnist/harry-minium/unc-s-arrogance-over-academic-scandal-has-tainted-the-school/article_18fc6af4-f808-53e6-b107-ca46fb2a1e6a.html)

NCAA damned if you do damned if you don't......my guess....they do.

If UNC argument is true....didn't violate NCAA rules...what good are the rules?

willandi
08-01-2017, 08:02 AM
While UNC MAY have a point, the purpose of the class was to enable athletes to remain eligible. Having a teaching assistant grade, and in some cases, partially re-write makes it worse.

UNC could prevail in the argument, but the NCAA requires it's member schools to abide by the NCAA regulations, and submit to NCAA oversight. What would be really interesting would be if UNC won the battle and lost the war. If they prevail with the concept that the NCAA has no oversight in their case, and the NCAA revoked UNC's membership in the NCAA because they refuse to follow the rules, it would be another can of worms.

bartruff1
08-01-2017, 08:15 AM
Death Penalty ....

GonzagasaurusFlex
08-01-2017, 08:46 AM
I got no sympathy for UNC. This is all I need to know:


I’d feel some sympathy for UNC officials if they had earnestly tried to get to the bottom of all this. But instead of opening up, they lawyered up and stonewalled investigators. They blamed a false “media narrative” for forcing the NCAA to investigate and have distanced themselves from the Wainstein report

The school already has spent $18 million on the academic scandal, mostly in legal fees. It has not been money well-spent, either. Had Carolina officials fallen on their collective swords in 2011 and made an honest effort to atone, they likely would have gotten off with minimum NCAA sanctions.

MontanaCoyote
08-01-2017, 09:09 AM
Death Penalty ....

Yes! Their argument is pure BS. "Ain't no sittin on the fence, when it comes to truth or consequences, just some things there ain't no way around; Look out Son, It's A Long Way Down." HK

JPtheBeasta
08-01-2017, 10:49 AM
If this doesn't fall under NCAA jurisdiction, whoever is responsible for accrediting the school needs to take action and sanction the school.

I agree with the argument the NCAA does have jurisdiction, because if they don't there is no way for them to ensure the academic eligibility of the players as student-athletes.

Bogozags
08-01-2017, 11:29 AM
Gon....Flex Post

I’d feel some sympathy for UNC officials if they had earnestly tried to get to the bottom of all this. But instead of opening up, they lawyered up and stonewalled investigators. They blamed a false “media narrative” for forcing the NCAA to investigate and have distanced themselves from the Wainstein report


JPtheBeasta
If this doesn't fall under NCAA jurisdiction, whoever is responsible for accrediting the school needs to take action and sanction the school.

I agree with the argument the NCAA does have jurisdiction, because if they don't there is no way for them to ensure the academic eligibility of the players as student-athletes.


If memory serves, this ruling could effect football as well as men's and women's basketball...

I agree with both posts and the school should be heavily sanctioned by NCAA; however, this is what I think will happen...

NCAA finds UNC guilty...UNC immediately states they will not participate in the 2018 NCAA Bball Tournament and they will also be willing to give up one or two scholarships for the next two years. UNC by making these adjustments, will be allowed to prevent any current basketball players under scholarship to transfer and be immediately eligible...just like UL did when they got caught...

UNC is "A" Blue Blood and I seriously doubt NCAA will jeopardize the relationship they have with the Power Five conferences and just "slap" UNC's wrist and say don't do it again...

What should happen IMO is UNC's football as well as the women's and men's basketball teams should be placed on probation for three years...no pre or post season games for all three sports...AND to hit them where it really hurts prohibit UNC from getting any conference monies the school would automatically receive for bowl/NCAA tournament BUT I believe NCAA's reach can't get into conference distributions...

CDC84
08-01-2017, 12:31 PM
I have always been confused by how much the men's basketball program was a part of this. Obviously, they must've taken advantage in some ways because Roy is really worried, but I thought the football program was the real focus.

It is to my understanding that none of the players on last season's team had anything to do with this nonsense. I hope their title isn't taken away. I felt it was rude when certain media members questioned the kids about the investigation at the final four. As Kennedy Meeks said, "That doesn't have anything to do with us. No comment."

I'm not sure I understand UNC's argument that this isn't under the NCAA's jurisprudence. The NCAA regularly disqualifies players (or makes players sit during an investigation) from playing basketball for academic related reasons despite the fact that the university accepted the student-athlete. The student-athletes have to meet two standards right now: the school's, and the NCAA's.

Of course there are some college basketball analysts who feel the NCAA should have no say. If the kid is accepted by the school, he can play. Period.

Markburn1
08-01-2017, 02:28 PM
The class in question was available to all students. Just like at any University, kids find out faster than poop through a goose which classes are the easiest to pad their GPA. There is zero evidence that coaches pointed their players to these classes with the notable exception of the women's basketball team. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, it means that there is no evidence. The class in question being investigated by the NCAA is limited to the years between 2002 and 2011. The kids playing there now have absolutely nothing to do with this.

UNC's attorneys are exactly right that there is nothing in the NCAA bylaws that prohibit athletes from selecting classes that are easier than others. ALL COLLEGES have them. Most Universities absolutely steer athletes to majors that are less difficult than the average student might choose. The quality of education is on the institution. It isn't controlled by coaches. Any deficiencies in classes are subject to accreditation reviews. That is where classes like this should be scrutinized and eliminated. It is outside of the NCAA purview.

Justice in a legal sense would be served by the NCAA dropping the charges. Unfortunately, the NCAA has been pressured by the media to DO SOMETHING and has backed themselves into a corner by vacillating several times dropping the charges and pursuing them. They will be seen as toothless now if they can't find something to stick. No matter what happens, there will be people that are ignorant of the actual facts and let their animosity towards a "Blue Blood" cloud their judgement.

By the way, I couldn't be more complimentary towards the way Gonzaga handles their academics with respect to their athletes.

Markburn1
08-01-2017, 02:32 PM
If this doesn't fall under NCAA jurisdiction, whoever is responsible for accrediting the school needs to take action and sanction the school.

I agree with the argument the NCAA does have jurisdiction, because if they don't there is no way for them to ensure the academic eligibility of the players as student-athletes.

Academic eligibility has nothing to do with what type of classes the athletes take. Their eligibility has to do with credits accumulated and making progress towards their major.

jazzdelmar
08-01-2017, 02:40 PM
Last Chance Blueblood University.....

willandi
08-01-2017, 06:38 PM
The class in question was available to all students. Just like at any University, kids find out faster than poop through a goose which classes are the easiest to pad their GPA. There is zero evidence that coaches pointed their players to these classes with the notable exception of the women's basketball team. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, it means that there is no evidence. The class in question being investigated by the NCAA is limited to the years between 2002 and 2011. The kids playing there now have absolutely nothing to do with this.

UNC's attorneys are exactly right that there is nothing in the NCAA bylaws that prohibit athletes from selecting classes that are easier than others. ALL COLLEGES have them. Most Universities absolutely steer athletes to majors that are less difficult than the average student might choose. The quality of education is on the institution. It isn't controlled by coaches. Any deficiencies in classes are subject to accreditation reviews. That is where classes like this should be scrutinized and eliminated. It is outside of the NCAA purview.

Justice in a legal sense would be served by the NCAA dropping the charges. Unfortunately, the NCAA has been pressured by the media to DO SOMETHING and has backed themselves into a corner by vacillating several times dropping the charges and pursuing them. They will be seen as toothless now if they can't find something to stick. No matter what happens, there will be people that are ignorant of the actual facts and let their animosity towards a "Blue Blood" cloud their judgement.

By the way, I couldn't be more complimentary towards the way Gonzaga handles their academics with respect to their athletes.

As I remember, there also was a grad assistant, or some such, that was in charge of grading the papers and was alleged to have changed answers, even written some in herself. That is more than steering athletes to easy classes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_North_Carolina_academic-athletic_scandal

kitzbuel
08-01-2017, 07:33 PM
As I remember, there also was a grad assistant, or some such, that was in charge of grading the papers and was alleged to have changed answers, even written some in herself. That is more than steering athletes to easy classes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_North_Carolina_academic-athletic_scandal
If classes where students didn't have to do their own work were made available to all students, then would that not potentially affect UNC's accreditation?

JPtheBeasta
08-01-2017, 07:34 PM
Academic eligibility has nothing to do with what type of classes the athletes take. Their eligibility has to do with credits accumulated and making progress towards their major.

I understand that getting good enough grades would keep someone eligible. Keeping a good GPA because you are in fraudulent classes should not keep one eligible- in my opinion, of course. In this case, the "type" of class would fall into two categories: legitimate and illegitimate.

I don't agree with your characterization of the allegations against UNC. If the NCAA doesn't have the jurisdiction to crack down on academic fraud, then the sanctioning body that assures that the university is providing legitimate classes to its students has a responsibility to step in. The fraud that Rashad McCants describes during his time there would be a disgrace to any academic institution, if true.



Rashad McCants, the second-leading scorer on the North Carolina basketball team that won the 2004-05 national title, told ESPN's "Outside the Lines" that tutors wrote his term papers, he rarely went to class for about half his time at UNC, and he remained able to play largely because he took bogus classes designed to keep athletes academically eligible.

McCants told "Outside the Lines" that he could have been academically ineligible to play during the championship season had he not been provided the assistance. Further, he said head basketball coach Roy Williams knew about the "paper class" system at UNC. The so-called paper classes didn't require students to go to class; rather, students were required to submit only one term paper to receive a grade.

McCants also told "Outside the Lines" that he even made the dean's list in the spring of 2005 despite not attending any of his four classes for which he received straight-A grades. He said advisers and tutors who worked with the basketball program steered him to take the paper classes within the African-American Studies program.

McCants' allegations mirror and amplify many of those first made public in 2011, when the Raleigh (N.C.) News & Observer began to report about widespread academic fraud at UNC. The scandal has centered on the African-American Studies classes that many athletes took in order to remain eligible.



http://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/11036924/former-north-carolina-basketball-star-rashad-mccants-says-took-sham-classes


It wasn’t until August 2011 that university officials launched a formal probe, after The News & Observer obtained a transcript of a football player who had received a B-plus in an upper-level African studies class before beginning his first full semester as a freshman. In May, the university probe reported that the class that Marvin Austin took never met, and was one of 54 such no-show classes within the department that had been billed as lecture classes but were being conducted as independent studies.

The probe also found that the hundreds of independent studies the department offered over the years lacked accountability, with professors responsible for more students than they could keep track of, and unable to confirm that they had taught some of the students assigned to them.

Independent studies are typically courses in which students develop a research project with a faculty member and spend the semester producing a lengthy paper or presentation. (emphasis added)
http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/education/unc-scandal/article15573764.html

kitzbuel
08-01-2017, 07:35 PM
If classes where students didn't have to do their own work were made available to all students, then would that not potentially affect UNC's accreditation?

Oh, wait, it did. http://college.usatoday.com/2015/06/11/unc-probation-accreditation-agency/

Outraged
08-01-2017, 07:35 PM
Does this mean they have to give up their National Championship?

JPtheBeasta
08-01-2017, 07:51 PM
Oh, wait, it did. http://college.usatoday.com/2015/06/11/unc-probation-accreditation-agency/

Interesting. Thanks for the link.

willandi
08-01-2017, 08:51 PM
If classes where students didn't have to do their own work were made available to all students, then would that not potentially affect UNC's accreditation?


Oh, wait, it did. http://college.usatoday.com/2015/06/11/unc-probation-accreditation-agency/

I was going to respond, and saw that you did it for me! Thanks.

CDC84
08-02-2017, 08:23 AM
Does this mean they have to give up their National Championship?

I hope not. None of the kids on that roster deserve it because they weren't involved in it. It was awful to watch those players questioned about the investigation at the final four. Some of the rotation players were dean's list students. It had nothing to do with them.

Despite UNC's mistakes, they remain one of the best state universities in the nation.

The NCAA has never stripped a program of its national title in basketball. They have done it plenty of times to teams who reached the final four.. See Calipari's teams at UMass and Memphis. But the Kansas team that was at the same final four that Memphis was at had a very similar situation with Darrell Arthur that Memphis did with Derrick Rose. But the NCAA didn't dare touch Kansas' title. I don't think we are going to see it. They can stick penalties on UNC that are far more severe.

zagdontzig
08-03-2017, 08:24 AM
I hope not. None of the kids on that roster deserve it because they weren't involved in it. It was awful to watch those players questioned about the investigation at the final four. Some of the rotation players were dean's list students. It had nothing to do with them.

Despite UNC's mistakes, they remain one of the best state universities in the nation.

The NCAA has never stripped a program of its national title in basketball. They have done it plenty of times to teams who reached the final four.. See Calipari's teams at UMass and Memphis. But the Kansas team that was at the same final four that Memphis was at had a very similar situation with Darrell Arthur that Memphis did with Derrick Rose. But the NCAA didn't dare touch Kansas' title. I don't think we are going to see it. They can stick penalties on UNC that are far more severe.

Didn't Louisville just lose it's title?

gonzagafan62
08-03-2017, 09:22 AM
Death penalty would be sufficient. Never would happen though. I expect a slap on the wrist.

As far as the title game is concerned.... it doesn't matter. We won't get the title, and we didn't earn it to begin with.

CarolinaZagFan
08-03-2017, 10:07 AM
The world would be a better place if they decided to just go ahead and burn the whole campus to the ground.

Markburn1
08-03-2017, 11:19 AM
The world would be a better place if they decided to just go ahead and burn the whole campus to the ground.

Seems over the top. Maybe you are being sarcastic.

Let me ask you a question. What seems more sordid? The Duke Lacrosse fiasco where nearly the entire administration and a significant cadre of professors joined in in condemning those kids before they had any facts or a stupid African Studies class that shouldn't have been accredited? Maybe if you burn down UNC, save a little accelerant for Duke?

soccerdud
08-03-2017, 12:14 PM
Seems over the top. Maybe you are being sarcastic.

Let me ask you a question. What seems more sordid? The Duke Lacrosse fiasco where nearly the entire administration and a significant cadre of professors joined in in condemning those kids before they had any facts or a stupid African Studies class that shouldn't have been accredited? Maybe if you burn down UNC, save a little accelerant for Duke?

yes, he's being sarcastic. he's a UNC fan (as well as a zag fan) and i'm sure he considers many of the expressed opinions about what the punishment should be to be "over-the-top"-- probably particularly '62s post and others that want them to go after the school's accreditation. i'm not taking a stance on that one way or the other, but figured i could clarify this for you.

kitzbuel
08-03-2017, 03:40 PM
yes, he's being sarcastic. he's a UNC fan (as well as a zag fan) and i'm sure he considers many of the expressed opinions about what the punishment should be to be "over-the-top"-- probably particularly '62s post and others that want them to go after the school's accreditation. i'm not taking a stance on that one way or the other, but figured i could clarify this for you.Why would having UNC's accreditation being reviewed be considered over the top when that is exactly what happened?

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

soccerdud
08-03-2017, 04:21 PM
Why would having UNC's accreditation being reviewed be considered over the top when that is exactly what happened?

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

i'm not defending it. i am speculating about his position. maybe he'll correct me or explain. i certainly am not in a position to.

Markburn1
08-03-2017, 08:47 PM
Why would having UNC's accreditation being reviewed be considered over the top when that is exactly what happened?

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

That's exactly the point. The agency that does the accreditation review determined that UNC fell short and put them on probation. It was the correct agency doing the right thing. It isn't the NCAA's purview. They have since been removed from probation and the NCAA has no cause to further punish the athletic department.

willandi
08-03-2017, 08:54 PM
That's exactly the point. The agency that does the accreditation review determined that UNC fell short and put them on probation. It was the correct agency doing the right thing. It isn't the NCAA's purview. They have since been removed from probation and the NCAA has no cause to further punish the athletic department.

Sorry, but I call B*ll S**t. The NCAA has academic standards that participating schools have to abide by. The fact that UNC was place on academic probation by an accreditation service shows that they failed the NCAA requirements.

Why are you ignoring the posts that show that UNC had un-supervised people grading the tests, changing the answers and changing the grades?

UNC cheated and they know it. They deserve to be punished or kicked out of the NCAA. Anything less is irresponsible and ineffective. If you truly believe that UNC should not face any sanctions, perhaps you are on the wrong forum.

Markburn1
08-04-2017, 07:01 AM
Sorry, but I call B*ll S**t. The NCAA has academic standards that participating schools have to abide by. The fact that UNC was place on academic probation by an accreditation service shows that they failed the NCAA requirements.

Why are you ignoring the posts that show that UNC had un-supervised people grading the tests, changing the answers and changing the grades?

UNC cheated and they know it. They deserve to be punished or kicked out of the NCAA. Anything less is irresponsible and ineffective. If you truly believe that UNC should not face any sanctions, perhaps you are on the wrong forum.

There were no tests. Basically submit a paper and get a decent grade no matter the quality of work. I'm not defending the class. It was crap. It wasn't created for athletes. Athletes and other students took advantage of it.

As for being on the wrong forum, perhaps you don't know the purpose of a forum. I'm not going anywhere.

willandi
08-04-2017, 09:34 AM
There were no tests. Basically submit a paper and get a decent grade no matter the quality of work. I'm not defending the class. It was crap. It wasn't created for athletes. Athletes and other students took advantage of it.

As for being on the wrong forum, perhaps you don't know the purpose of a forum. I'm not going anywhere.

Had you read the links several provided, you would have seen that there was strong, and admitted, evidence of cheating.

The forum I meant was the one for the UNC faithful, the ones that believe no wrong was done despite the admission of wrong doing by UNC.

Markburn1
08-04-2017, 09:45 AM
Had you read the links several provided, you would have seen that there was strong, and admitted, evidence of cheating.

The forum I meant was the one for the UNC faithful, the ones that believe no wrong was done despite the admission of wrong doing by UNC.

Hey Will. We disagree. Let me ask you this. Do you think Jay Bilas would be welcome to make comments here? He agrees in principle with me.

http://scout.com/college/north-carolina/Article/Jay-Bilas-Criticizes-NCAAs-Handling-of-UNC-Case--74924009

Please read that. You don't have to agree with Jay about it either. It's a different perspective than yours. That's all.

We don't have to agree on everything. I've enjoyed your posts over the years. Nobody is in 100% agreement. This forum is an opportunity to express opinions.

maynard g krebs
08-04-2017, 10:15 AM
It wasn't created for athletes. Athletes and other students took advantage of it

Kentucky has a dorm said to like a 5 star hotel. The basketball team lives there, along with 15 other students that win a lottery. This circumvents the rule of no special benefits for athletes not available to the student body. Sounds similar to UNC's "classes" to me.

As to Bilas, he's a paid shill for the industry.

bartruff1
08-04-2017, 10:44 AM
I understand that the cheerleaders at Kentucky win the dorm lottery every year.....go figure...

The thread is ' Zag Fans Thoughts ".....some of the posters in here argue as if they will have some effect on the outcome...

Markburn1
08-04-2017, 11:01 AM
Kentucky has a dorm said to like a 5 star hotel. The basketball team lives there, along with 15 other students that win a lottery. This circumvents the rule of no special benefits for athletes not available to the student body. Sounds similar to UNC's "classes" to me.

As to Bilas, he's a paid shill for the industry.

Not sure where you want to go with that. Training table (unlimited food), paid tutors, Top flight medical assistance, free gear, incredible weight rooms and practice facilities, etc., all not available to the student body. Where do you draw the line or justify one over the other?

Also, having a hard time reconciling a "paid shill for the industry" attacking it's governing body.

maynard g krebs
08-04-2017, 04:28 PM
Not sure where you want to go with that. Training table (unlimited food), paid tutors, Top flight medical assistance, free gear, incredible weight rooms and practice facilities, etc., all not available to the student body. Where do you draw the line or justify one over the other?



Non sequitur. The post was in response to the statement that these courses weren't there for the benefit of athletes because others were able to take them. I provided an example of something (Ky bb dorm) that was created expressly for athletes, but made available to others to comply with NCAA regs. Seems the same to me.

Zagceo
08-19-2017, 08:28 AM
At this point, even university officials would be guessing at what will happen.

In the direst scenario for the university, its men's basketball national championships from 2005 and 2009 are stripped while men's basketball, football and women's basketball lose scholarships, postseason opportunities and face years of probation.

In the best-case scenario, the committee revisits the charges and reverts to the second notice of allegations, removing any mention of improper benefits. In that case, men's basketball keeps its banners.

Best-case would also feature lack of institutional control charge being dropped.

LINK (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/20371398/north-carolina-tar-heels-ncaa-odds-months-away-final-decision-case-involving-academic-standards)

Zagceo
10-05-2017, 07:08 AM
Friday at noon.....gonna make some people mad....which?


North Carolina's wait for the NCAA Committee on Infractions to release its final report appears to be nearing an end. The COI will reportedly release its findings, including penalties, on Friday at noon ET, per the Charlotte Observer's Andrew Carter (https://twitter.com/_andrewcarter/status/915928036775735298).




Once the COI delivers its ruling, North Carolina will have 15 days to file an appeal.

appeal ......so it won't ever end

https://247sports.com/Bolt/NCAA-set-to-release-penalties-for-North-Carolina-academic-fraud--108445507

LongIslandZagFan
10-05-2017, 07:56 AM
If classes where students didn't have to do their own work were made available to all students, then would that not potentially affect UNC's accreditation?

Bingo.

If I am an accreditation group like, say, Middle States and I read that... I am sending people to the campus right away. This is a very serious accreditation issue, not just at a major level but at a school-wide level.

LongIslandZagFan
10-05-2017, 08:05 AM
The world would be a better place if they decided to just go ahead and burn the whole campus to the ground.


FYI... I have worked in higher ed for a long long time. I have been involved in many accreditation surveys.

JMHO... if this is the argument they are going to make to save their sports... THEY are running a huge risk in impacting their ability to exist as a top tier institution of learning.

This is no joke.

Mantua
10-05-2017, 08:09 AM
Friday at noon.....gonna make some people mad....which?






appeal ......so it won't ever end

https://247sports.com/Bolt/NCAA-set-to-release-penalties-for-North-Carolina-academic-fraud--108445507

The $ubtext of the appeal: For godsakes we’re North Carolina!

Zagceo
10-05-2017, 08:39 AM
FYI... I have worked in higher ed for a long long time. I have been involved in many accreditation surveys.

JMHO... if this is the argument they are going to make to save their sports... THEY are running a huge risk in impacting their ability to exist as a top tier institution of learning.

This is no joke.

12 months accreditation probation ended June 2016.....joke

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/education/article84158937.html

asoc
10-05-2017, 10:09 PM
Why can't they say that any student athlete who was taking those classes was ineligible to play while taking those classes.

Then any game that was played with an ineligible player would be forfeited.

MDABE80
10-05-2017, 11:01 PM
Given the week's events, I'd be surprised if UNC was blown up. This despite AAU coaches say Roy had to have know it was going on in his own program.

jazzdelmar
10-06-2017, 01:46 AM
Bingo.

If I am an accreditation group like, say, Middle States and I read that... I am sending people to the campus right away. This is a very serious accreditation issue, not just at a major level but at a school-wide level.

Middle States!! Wow, it’s been forever since I heard that. At least 3 self studies ago in a land far away. Thanks for bringing back some very anxious moments LIZF.

Martin Centre Mad Man
10-06-2017, 02:45 AM
Bingo.

If I am an accreditation group like, say, Middle States and I read that... I am sending people to the campus right away. This is a very serious accreditation issue, not just at a major level but at a school-wide level.

It amazes me that a school with UNC's academic reputation would compromise the value of their degrees by saying that. I would think that the alumni would be outraged that the university would belittle the achievements of so many people for whom earning a degree from UNC was a major personal and professional achievement.

It also amazes me that the school's academic reputation didn't go straight into the toilet with these revelations. However, they still rate among the very best public universities in the country. U.S. News ranks them as one of the Top 5 public universities in the U.S. alongside Cal, UCLA, Virginia, and Michigan.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities

jazzdelmar
10-06-2017, 03:10 AM
It amazes me that a school with UNC's academic reputation would compromise the value of their degrees by saying that. I would think that the alumni would be outraged that the university would belittle the achievements of so many people for whom earning a degree from UNC was a major personal and professional achievement.

It also amazes me that the school's academic reputation didn't go straight into the toilet with these revelations. However, they still rate among the very best public universities in the country. U.S. News ranks them as one of the Top 5 public universities in the U.S. alongside Cal, UCLA, Virginia, and Michigan.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities

Thnkfully, some things are even more important than athletics at some colleges in the country.

LongIslandZagFan
10-06-2017, 06:14 AM
Middle States!! Wow, it’s been forever since I heard that. At least 3 self studies ago in a land far away. Thanks for bringing back some very anxious moments LIZF.

LOL... My pleasure. We just got through MS a couple years ago. But I am all but running Institutional Research here, so all of the little accreditation (program or school specific) studies come to my department for data. Couple that with lovely government reporting and my real job as a DBA and I don't get much time to breath. Man... really need to get my brewery going so I can retire from this chaos.

MontanaCoyote
10-06-2017, 10:03 AM
It amazes me that a school with UNC's academic reputation would compromise the value of their degrees by saying that. I would think that the alumni would be outraged that the university would belittle the achievements of so many people for whom earning a degree from UNC was a major personal and professional achievement.

It also amazes me that the school's academic reputation didn't go straight into the toilet with these revelations. However, they still rate among the very best public universities in the country. U.S. News ranks them as one of the Top 5 public universities in the U.S. alongside Cal, UCLA, Virginia, and Michigan.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities

I look at these ratings with a skeptical eye. Too many variables get mixed into the aggregate scores. Unfortunately a few that don't (at least to the best of my knowledge) are class size, percentage of classes taught by professors or assistant professors rather than adjuncts or grad students, availability of teaching staff to individual students, etc. These are especially important considerations, in my opinion, for undergrads. Screw the ratings. Send your kid to really good small
school, public or private. Can always go to one of the big boys for top notch grad work in your chosen field.

And I don't care how highly rated NC is anyway. They got to the top by cheating. Gonzaga didn't. Period. Gonzaga Proud!

LongIslandZagFan
10-06-2017, 11:27 AM
I look at these ratings with a skeptical eye. Too many variables get mixed into the aggregate scores. Unfortunately a few that don't (at least to the best of my knowledge) are class size, percentage of classes taught by professors or assistant professors rather than adjuncts or grad students, availability of teaching staff to individual students, etc. These are especially important considerations, in my opinion, for undergrads. Screw the ratings. Send your kid to really good small
school, public or private. Can always go to one of the big boys for top notch grad work in your chosen field.

And I don't care how highly rated NC is anyway. They got to the top by cheating. Gonzaga didn't. Period. Gonzaga Proud!

Well much of the data (enrollment, faculty, finanical, etc.) for these ratings come from governmental reporting that is required. There is very little that can be "fudged" with that information. You want to move your ratings up... the only way to do that is to address shortcomings. Believe... we just went through 4 months of hell for US News and WR ratings... and are actively as an institution addressing our weaknesses to move ourselves higher.

JMHO, while my son could have gone where I work, I know enough that the program he was interested was not as good as the state school he is attending. His dream school would have been Rutgers as it is a top 10 math school in the country... he settled for top 100 instead.

jazzdelmar
10-06-2017, 12:51 PM
LOL... My pleasure. We just got through MS a couple years ago. But I am all but running Institutional Research here, so all of the little accreditation (program or school specific) studies come to my department for data. Couple that with lovely government reporting and my real job as a DBA and I don't get much time to breath. Man... really need to get my brewery going so I can retire from this chaos.

Back in my day at Pratt, IR was growing in influence. Our guy always had a seat at the table for trustee and v.p. and dean council meetings. He was perceived as the Diogenes like, last honest man. I know that's you, B.