PDA

View Full Version : Rotation Depth -- What's Your Take?



tyra
07-23-2017, 08:01 AM
Summer doldrums. Time to drag out this chestnut. IIRC Coach has never had a true rotation of 9 let alone 10 players. Yet, the "aggregated" wisdom of the Board is 10 players will get meaningful PT. (JP, Silas, Rui, Jesse, ZN, Corey, JWIII, Tillie, Jacob L, and either Jones or even Joel). What's the compelling argument that Coach will break with what he has always done? He has no history of doing this. Arguments for and against this happening are????

jazzdelmar
07-23-2017, 08:18 AM
Summer doldrums. Time to drag out this chestnut. IIRC Coach has never had a true rotation of 9 let alone 10 players. Yet, the "aggregated" wisdom of the Board is 10 players will get meaningful PT. (JP, Silas, Rui, Jesse, ZN, Corey, JWIII, Tillie, Jacob L, and either Jones or even Joel). What's the compelling argument that Coach will break with what he has always done? He has no history of doing this. Arguments for and against this happening are????

Eight is Enough. Few's intractable mantra, and the title of a better than average vintage sitcom. Jones, Joel and Jesse will be at the children's table, imo.

TexasZagFan
07-23-2017, 08:30 AM
200 minutes per game to spread around, that would be 20 minutes per player with a 10 man rotation. I think Few sticks with 8, leaving two for situational purposes, or in case of foul trouble.

Ekrub
07-23-2017, 08:58 AM
Eight is Enough. Few's intractable mantra, and the title of a better than average vintage sitcom. Jones, Joel and Jesse will be at the children's table, imo.

Don't think Jesse will be at the children's table...

jazzdelmar
07-23-2017, 09:09 AM
Don't think Jesse will be at the children's table...

Metaphor.

seacatfan
07-23-2017, 09:15 AM
Doesn't almost every fan base speculate about a 10 player rotation and tons of depth for their team every off season? And yet, it almost never happens. Most college teams play 7-8 players for the bulk of the minutes, some even as low as 6. It's pretty hard to work 9 guys in regularly. 10 just isn't going to happen. But it's good to have extra bodies in case of injuries.

maynard g krebs
07-23-2017, 10:04 AM
I researched this a bit recently. Six of the last 10 years, either 9 or a couple of times 10 players played rotation minutes- arbitrarily, 8 or more per game. I think that's likely to be the case this year. Rotation tightens a couple of weeks before tourney time.

bartruff1
07-23-2017, 10:18 AM
7.75 will play when the outcome is in doubt...

seacatfan
07-23-2017, 10:55 AM
That's a bit harsh Bart. Which player is going to get 1/4 of himself sliced off?

bartruff1
07-23-2017, 11:07 AM
Rui

Reborn
07-23-2017, 11:29 AM
There is one team who had more than a 7 or 8 man rotation and that was Univ of North Carolina, national champions. They had nine players who averaged 12+ min per game and 1 player who averaged almost 8 min a game. GU had an 8 man rotation last year and two players Alberts (6 min a game) and Hachimura (almost 5 minutes).

The interesting thing I noticed when I looked at North Carolina's schedule last year is that bench play means something different from game to game, and from the beginning of the season to the end of the season. Usually teams will play more players, up to ten, at the beginning of the season and especially when they are playing a team who might be easier to beat. The one constant thing I noticed between Gonzaga and UNC last year was that in the toughest of games both coaches used an 8 man rotation. Then when you go down to the next tier of teams UNC would use a 9 man rotation. And then when they played easier teams in league they used a ten man rotation.

IMO right now Gonzaga has 10 players who could get good minutes on the floor and contribute, and the roster is not yet filled out. The top five players will average at least 20 min a game. Then there will be 3 players who could average between 12 and 19 min per game, and two players who would get between 8-10 min per game. There will be games (and they will be the toughest games) where Few will use a 7 or 8 man rotation. But there will be a lot more games where he will use a ten player rotation.

One other thing that needs to be looked at this year is how tough our OOC schedule is at the beginning of the year. In the month of November we play Washington, Ohio St, most likely Florida, and most likely Duke. And then in first week of December we play Creighton and Villanova. We also play San Diego St on 12/21, and so far there is no Battle in Seattle but that could change. That game is usually in December. Fortunately for us we have four players returning who got significant minutes last year: JW3, Perkins, Melson and Tillie. I think Norvell will start, and Hachimura, Larsen and Kispert will be a tough bench, imo. All 3 of these players should contribute in a positive way when they are on the court. And of course there is Wade, Jones and maybe Ayayi. And there is a good chance GU will land two more significant players and imo at least one. When I look at the players on our bench my main concern is their experience, and there is not a lot at the D-1 level. For this reason I feel that Few will sign either Hawkins or Onwuasor and maybe both. We know we have Wade who can play the point, but is he really ready? Can he handle teams like Ohio St, Florida, Duke, Villanova? If you have wondered why Few is looking at Onwuasor is this the reason? He has played 3 years of D-1 basketball and has the body to go up against elite schools. If you take a look at who I have on the bench (top 3 bench players) you will notice that I don't have a back-up point guard, and that's because I just don't think Wade is ready at the beginning of the year. If Onwuasor signs than he'd be the back up guard, and Wade would either red-shirt or just accept a smaller role for next year. This makes sense to me because next year Melson leaves and if the other guard is Onwuasor than he too would graduate. I feel Wade will be ready to contribute in '18-'19.

That leaves the question of whether Few will sign Hawkins. We know how talented Hawkins is. My question, and some of yours, is whether we have room for him. In terms of available scholarships we definitely have room for him. And we know that he has very good D-1 experience and was very successful at that level. I know that Few believes that a team is as strong as it's weakest link (of a chain). And GU would be much stronger as a team if we believe what Few believes. Hawkins would make the team better imo. However, who would be willing to play less to make room for him? It would have to be between Hachimura and Kispert imo, or possibly Larsen.

So as you can see, it's mid-summer and there are a lot of question that will be answered by the end of summer. If I were Few I'd go for both of these transfers (Onwausor and Hawkins). It would turn a fairly inexperience team into a very experienced and strong team. They will both be seniors so would graduate next year and then there would be open positions to fill after they leave. I keep thinking of Mathews and what he did for the team.

To answer the main question Few will use an 8 man rotation for the toughest games and a ten player rotation for the games that are in that 2nd tier I mentioned. Because I see such a tough out of conference schedule next season I think it's going to be a 7 or 8 man rotation.

GonzagasaurusFlex
07-23-2017, 03:35 PM
Even though technically we are not even to the midpoint of summer (June 21 - September 21), all I can think about is that Winter Is Coming!

Getting kind of late for a grad transfer to plop down in to Zagville for the 17-18 season, isn't it?

Your logic is irrefutable Reborn but I'm not convinced Few will bring in two transfers at this point. Assuming Perkins, Melson, Norvell, Tillie and Williams start Larsen, Kispert, Rui, Wade will be the 6-9 players. Not sure how/if Jones fits into rotation assuming both Kispert and Rui earn places higher up on the depth chart. Ayayi maybe redshirts?

Rangerzag
07-23-2017, 03:47 PM
I always figure the Last Day to Add a class (Wednesday, September 7) is the drop dead date when it comes to a player showing up on campus.

http://www.gonzaga.edu/Academics/default.asp

Anything later than that would be a complete rabbit out of the hat miracle. I would have to involve some remote registration and start of study. Most unlikely.

Reborn
07-23-2017, 04:42 PM
I always figure the Last Day to Add a class (Wednesday, September 7) is the drop dead date when it comes to a player showing up on campus.

http://www.gonzaga.edu/Academics/default.asp

Anything later than that would be a complete rabbit out of the hat miracle. I would have to involve some remote registration and start of study. Most unlikely.

Miracles by Jefferson Starship "If only you believe in miracles. baby so would I" Onwauasor visits GU Aug 1st I think. Hawkins has not decided yet, but he says it's between New Mexico and Gonzaga.

Ekrub
07-23-2017, 09:44 PM
Metaphor.

Yes. If children's table =end of the bench, then my statement stands. Jesse won't be at the children's table.

kitzbuel
07-24-2017, 04:08 AM
RuiBut we don't need another guard

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

mgadfly
07-24-2017, 06:42 AM
I researched this a bit recently. Six of the last 10 years, either 9 or a couple of times 10 players played rotation minutes- arbitrarily, 8 or more per game. I think that's likely to be the case this year. Rotation tightens a couple of weeks before tourney time.

Agreed, with the caveat I pointed out last time. Really, only 4 of those seasons had more than 8 players get 20% or more minutes (as you counted guys that played partial seasons but averaged 8 minutes per game in the games they actually played in). Also, of the 4 seasons that qualified under the total minutes method, one was due to a high level player being suspended for off the court activity, and the others were due to not having an option at the small forward position for consecutive seasons. In all but one of the ten seasons we had 8 man or less rotations by the second half of the season (or post-suspension) and that was because the coaching staff was struggling with finding a player worthy of starting (a problem we don't really like to have).

I think this year will have more than 8 players average 8 or more minutes per game. I don't know that we will have 8 guys get 20% or more of the minutes though. I think we will see experimentation early before someone wins the rotation spots and fills it for the remainder of the season. More likely than a true 8 man rotation would be no one steps up and the staff shortens the rotation to 7 or even 6 (like 2015).

For me:

Locks to earn more than 20% of the minutes (barring injury):
G: Perkins
G: Melson
F: JWIII
F: Tillie

Likely to earn more than 20% of the minutes:
G Norvell
F Rui

Must Win one of the two remaining spots:
G Ayayi
G Jesse
F Kispert
F Jones
P Jacob L

I think from the last group the most likely will be Jesse and Jacob but those minutes are really up for grabs. I could also see a six or seven man rotation by the WCC and NCAAs if the staff is blown away by one of those in the bottom five.

Reborn
07-24-2017, 07:03 AM
But we don't need another guard

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

Really? Than why is Onwuasor visiting August 1st? My reason for believing he may sign is because the coaches believe that are not ready to play teams that are on our OOC schedule. Teams like Duke, Florida, Ohio St, Villanova, Creighton, Washington and San Diego St. IMO, Hawkins will not come to GU unless he either starts or is promised 20 min per game.

amaronizag
07-24-2017, 07:34 AM
When we sign a new player, I watch all of the video available. Then I get ideas about lineups, matchups, who will start the first game, etc. But it isn't until Kraziness in the Kennel that we get solid clues about who our Game #1 starters will be and who our starters might be in December. When we signed Kevin Pangos I knew he was going to be good, but I was pretty sure he wouldn't be starting ahead of Hart, Carter, and Stockton. But then I saw him at Kraziness in the Kennel. I don't think he missed a shot from the field. I marveled at his court vision, threading the gaps, and play making. I emailed all my friends that I loved Pangos and said he if he didn't start the first game, he'd start would very soon and Bell would work his way into a starting role before Christmas. My point is that it's really hard (for me) to assess players just from High School video and scrimmages and have any certainty as to who will start before the season actually begins and I see them playing against D1 talent.

Last year Tillie impressed me, but he didn't play with the same free flow and offensive aggression he showed in the 3 on 3 games against team USA . I look for him to step up this year, but he still has to prove himself. Sure, he and J3 will start the first few games, but will Larsen work his way into starting at the 5 by December? Sooner? That would leave Tillie to come off the bench and back up J3 and Larsen. Will we land another big in August? Will Tillie make a big jump?

Hard to believe ZN won't start with JP and SM. ZN really looked good at Kraziness last year!! And now Kispert is showing strong. Hard to start a new guy, especially over Melson, who really stepped up last year. But if he learns the system, can he earn a starting shot at the 3, moving ZN to the 2, with JP at the point? Can ZN play point? Can we still land a Euro Big? Will we get Hawkins or Onwuasor? Someone we haven't even considered yet? Impossible to begin sorting it all out until we see them at Kraziness and watch their progress in the first month of the season. The only thing I'm sure of is that we'll get all the bases covered with sufficient depth to make another deep run. Yes, our team will be young when we play that tough pre-Conference schedule, but so will all of the other teams. I think we're going to be exceptional again this season right from the start. And like last season, we're going to keep getting better.

I expect great things out of Melson and Perkins, but I think they will have the hardest time protecting their minutes against challenges from Wade and especially from Kispert.

Locks to earn more than 20% of the minutes in order of likelihood.
Position(s) Player
4-5 JW3
4 Tillie
5 Larsen
1-3 Norvell
1-2 Perkins
2-3 Melson
3-(2?) Kispert
1-2 Wade
3-(4?) Rui
1-2 Ayayi
3-(4?) Jones

hooter73
07-24-2017, 07:46 AM
Sorry, and with no ill-intent, but the only non-factor I see is Jones right now. Joel is putting up great numbers but will have to really overachieve to earn double digit playing time minutes on a one year removed national championship team. Wade might not start but no way hes near the end of the rotation, probably second off the bench (first of the small guards, Kispert and Rui for the Wing), Larsen is the only real big man so hes a lock by default for the bigs to be first off the bench... and theres your 9 man rotation.

the visiting transfer guards are a mystery to me. Quite honestly I dont see anyone else coming this year.

Worthington
07-24-2017, 08:07 AM
Really? Than why is Onwuasor visiting August 1st? My reason for believing he may sign is because the coaches believe that are not ready to play teams that are on our OOC schedule. Teams like Duke, Florida, Ohio St, Villanova, Creighton, Washington and San Diego St. IMO, Hawkins will not come to GU unless he either starts or is promised 20 min per game.

Spot on. I feel like Norvell, Kispert, Wade, and Rui will all be GREAT zags in time, but there may be an adjustment period to playing high level D1 basketball. The coaching staff knows that we need to capitalize on our strong, early OOC schedule and that we might not have the luxury of allowing these guys to play through their growing pains in games against Villanova and Duke. So much of me really wants to let these guys loose because I think our ceiling in March might be highest with them playing major roles...

webspinnre
07-24-2017, 08:52 AM
The one thing in mind is it seems like one of our guards or wings gets banged up in pre-season every year, and Wade is coming back from his long mission, so there's an outside shot a guy like Wade or Kispert or Ayayi could end up with a RS just based on how things shake out. Better to have too much depth than not enough.

MDABE80
07-24-2017, 09:56 AM
8 players in the tough games. 10 in the easier ones.

Zagger
07-24-2017, 11:20 AM
8 players in the tough games. 10 in the easier ones.

Ditto

But, depends on lots of variables not we'll know at this time. Meaning just how good everyone plays, who may be injured and/or recovering from an injury. I'd love to see the Zags w/ 10 guys each good enough to start. Greedy me :)

maynard g krebs
07-24-2017, 11:21 AM
Agreed, with the caveat I pointed out last time. Really, only 4 of those seasons had more than 8 players get 20% or more minutes (as you counted guys that played partial seasons but averaged 8 minutes per game in the games they actually played in). Also, of the 4 seasons that qualified under the total minutes method, one was due to a high level player being suspended for off the court activity, and the others were due to not having an option at the small forward position for consecutive seasons. In all but one of the ten seasons we had 8 man or less rotations by the second half of the season (or post-suspension) and that was because the coaching staff was struggling with finding a player worthy of starting (a problem we don't really like to have).

I think this year will have more than 8 players average 8 or more minutes per game. I don't know that we will have 8 guys get 20% or more of the minutes though. I think we will see experimentation early before someone wins the rotation spots and fills it for the remainder of the season. More likely than a true 8 man rotation would be no one steps up and the staff shortens the rotation to 7 or even 6 (like 2015).

For me:

Locks to earn more than 20% of the minutes (barring injury):
G: Perkins
G: Melson
F: JWIII
F: Tillie

Likely to earn more than 20% of the minutes:
G Norvell
F Rui

Must Win one of the two remaining spots:
G Ayayi
G Jesse
F Kispert
F Jones
P Jacob L

I think from the last group the most likely will be Jesse and Jacob but those minutes are really up for grabs. I could also see a six or seven man rotation by the WCC and NCAAs if the staff is blown away by one of those in the bottom five.

Slight difference in how we defined terms, but 4/10 or 6/10 are both pretty close to half the time. And I do think the rotation tightens again late in the year, but during WCC play there will be a lot of blowouts where everybody gets time.

Essentially, I was pointing out that the 8 man rotation isn't set in stone, as some people have implied.

And I'll bet my left nut that Kispert winds up playing more than 15 minutes per game.

bdmiller7
07-24-2017, 11:38 AM
Perkins 30
Williams 26
Melson 26
Tillie 22
Norvell 21
Hachimura 19
Kispert 18
Wade 17
Larsen 16
Jones 5

My feeling is upperclassmen (Perkins, Williams, and Melson) get consistent minutes while the rest vary depending on matchup and how they're playing at that time. I didn't include Ajayi because I don't know where he fits. I could see him similar to Norvell last year where he practices, travels, suits up, and warms up, but doesn't play, ending with a redshirt. The only reason I could see that is because he's so young. He's basically a high school senior and won't turn 18 until the season is almost over. Beach will get a couple minutes here and there when the game is over. All of this will need adjusting if we land a transfer.

MDABE80
07-24-2017, 01:33 PM
By January, I'll be surprised if Corey and Jessearen't getting 20 min each. Corey and Jesse have looked so good in camp play. Rui? Still a question mark.

soccerdud
07-24-2017, 02:01 PM
And I'll bet my left nut that Kispert winds up playing more than 15 minutes per game.

is that your good nut? or the... other one?

Outraged
07-24-2017, 05:40 PM
Ii think we learned last year with Collins Tillie is that sometimes rotating two players in rather than one works well. If we rotate two tandem sets we're at a nine man rotatation.

seacatfan
07-24-2017, 05:55 PM
Ii think we learned last year with Collins Tillie is that sometimes rotating two players in rather than one works well. If we rotate two tandem sets we're at a nine man rotatation.

That's a good point, but that might have been a unique and special synergy that Collins and Tillie had when they entered the game together. It was fun to watch.

TexasZagFan
07-24-2017, 06:42 PM
is that your good nut? or the... other one?

Great way to hijack a thread! :lmao:

Reborn
07-24-2017, 06:49 PM
talk about immaturity....by soccerdad. He really is one of those who has no idea of what this forum is about.....and the administrators let him and others get away with it...

soccerdud
07-24-2017, 07:57 PM
talk about immaturity....by soccerdad. He really is one of those who has no idea of what this forum is about.....and the administrators let him and others get away with it...

i thought it was funny. sorry you didn't. no shade intended, mgk; didn't think i needed to say that in my original post.

it was meant in the spirit that tzf seems to have taken it. it was a one-line post that i hoped would get a reasonable return on guffaws (even if only among the cretins -- like myself -- and without acknowledgment) and no further discussion. but here we are.

i'll note that maturity is not a goal of mine. you bring plenty of that for the both of us. it's a fact, tho, that people who laugh more live longer. i wish you plenty of both. but i probably won't get off your lawn... or your intrawebs.

also, it's soccerdud.


now, back to the rotation.

to me, the big question is whether larsen is ready to be leaned on as few's traditional stud 5. if so, he gets 25 minutes, imo, because he's the only natural fit for that role... and that has the effect of making much less time available for rui and/or kispert at the 4... and then we have a pretty major logjam at the 3. if not he'll likely see around 10 mpg, and we'll be incredibly thin at the 5. this would force rui and kispert to both see a fair bit of time at the 4, and the ranks manning the 2-3 thin out significantly. so much swings on him, and it's hard to project with any confidence without better info about his readiness to take on that role (health and otherwise). but i'm optimistic.

TexasZagFan
07-24-2017, 08:28 PM
By January, I'll be surprised if Corey and Jessearen't getting 20 min each. Corey and Jesse have looked so good in camp play. Rui? Still a question mark.

Different roles for each, Abe. Wouldn't surprise me if Few ran some sets with 4 guards and Rui at center, if only to play mind games with scouts. After all, that was Rui's role with his team at FIBA.

Corey may not have Zach Collins' height, but his skills are off the charts. He brought down the house with a couple of dunks against Rui.

And we've almost forgotten about Zach Norvell. We need to be patient during OOC. I feel sorry for our conference opponents...again.

Zagceo
07-24-2017, 08:31 PM
when a person decides to bet a "nut" ....can't be surprised with responses IMO

Reborn
07-24-2017, 09:26 PM
it's a fact, tho, that people who laugh more live longer. i wish you plenty of both. but i probably won't get off your lawn... or your intrawebs.

also, it's soccerdud.

I doubt if you would know this because you don't know me. My hobbie is being a comedian. Your joke was about as ancient as the Andes. I think that was a joke we used back in the 8th and 9th grade. Hope you can come up with some better and more modern material in the future. I DO LOVE TO LAUGH.
Sorry for mis spelling your name.

soccerdud
07-24-2017, 09:42 PM
I doubt if you would know this because you don't know me. My hobbie is being a comedian. Your joke was about as ancient as the Andes. I think that was a joke we used back in the 8th and 9th grade. Hope you can come up with some better and more modern material in the future. I DO LOVE TO LAUGH.
Sorry for mis spelling your name.

lol yeah, i'm sure you slay. np and tc.

that point about not knowing each other was well-made. hopefully you grok that such things go both ways.

maynard g krebs
07-24-2017, 10:10 PM
when a person decides to bet a "nut" ....can't be surprised with responses IMO

The responses were surprisingly entertaining, actually. Even started a minor feud. lol.

soccerdud
07-24-2017, 10:15 PM
The responses were surprisingly entertaining, actually. Even started a minor feud. lol.

rabble-rouser. agitator. agent provocateur. lol :p

kitzbuel
07-25-2017, 01:08 PM
We are back with a request to keep our focus a little more.

GonzagasaurusFlex
07-25-2017, 03:54 PM
We are back with a request to keep our focus a little more.

Nice to have this thread back. Odd that rather than edit out the apparently offensive posts here that led to it being locked in the first place, kitzbuel instead edits out my and other's posts requesting we get this thread back. Guess we struck a chord or something.

As for the rotation topic at hand, I have no new thoughts other than to repeat that I'd rather Zags roll with who they have now rather than bring in an immediately eligible grad transfer......unless a low-post stud becomes available. If not, I think one or two of Kispert, Rui, Wade will shine brightly enough to make this another special season.

BobZag
07-25-2017, 04:22 PM
Zags will have starters and non-starters on the bench.

MDABE80
07-25-2017, 08:10 PM
In some ways it's too bad Kispert isn't 6 10. We'd be FF bound. If he does as well as I think, we might be anyway. He's rally superior. Camp sightings didn't show injury. We have some really good players with the new faces. Even though they're young, these kids can play. All we need is 8. Larson, Tillie, Rui, J3,< BIGS OTHERS.> Josh, Jesse, Melson, Kispert, Norvelle (9th)

If these kids can run, pass, play defense and rebound, I'm not worried about scoring. We need a Nigel again.

BZ? -> work the kinks out.:)

3XaZag
07-25-2017, 09:57 PM
There once was a poster named BZ,
we knew he saw things we could not see,
rather than clearing the haze,
he made comments that araised,
frustration to which patience was key.

We are camels with nose in his tent
Is the board better when he's here or absent?
Begging for clues,
he plays everyone's muse,
We're left wondering what it all meant.

ZagNative
07-25-2017, 11:48 PM
There once was a poster named BZ,
we knew he saw things we could not see,
rather than clearing the haze,
he made comments that araised,
frustration to which patience was key.

We are camels with nose in his tent
Is the board better when he's here or absent?
Begging for clues,
he plays everyone's muse,
We're left wondering what it all meant.Whoa! Very good, and on point!

kitzbuel
07-26-2017, 08:41 AM
Really? Than why is Onwuasor visiting August 1st? My reason for believing he may sign is because the coaches believe that are not ready to play teams that are on our OOC schedule. Teams like Duke, Florida, Ohio St, Villanova, Creighton, Washington and San Diego St. IMO, Hawkins will not come to GU unless he either starts or is promised 20 min per game.We have only five players slotted against the 3, 4 & 5 positions.

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

DixieZag
07-26-2017, 09:15 AM
What is obvious is how spoiled I've become, used to have multiple 7'footers that will play post college ball on the roster.

To me, the two biggest questions are whether Larsen can step in and be an "elite d-1 level" big as a frosh, and is Rui ready for multiple minutes in such a structured offense.

MDABE80
07-26-2017, 09:55 AM
5. Larsen 4. J3, Tillie, Rui 3 spot- kispert, norvelle
We have 6 ( 2 per spot). I wish we had a tested center (5) but in Few's system, 4's play the 5 spot, etc. and interchange.
I'm thinking we still need another big but it is what it is. As above, if we play defense, rebound, run and pass, offense shoul dbe fine.
Key will be defense. Dixie's right though we've been spoiled with Bigs.

Hooray4Daye&Gray
07-26-2017, 12:24 PM
I'll take a stab at it:

PG - Perkins 25, Onwuasor 10, Wade 5
SG - Onwuasor 10, Norvell 15, Melson 15
SF - Melson 10, Rui 15, Kispert 15
PF - Samanic 20, Tillie 15, Williams 5
C - Williams 20, Larsen 15, Tillie 5

Or in other words, I think we are far from set on our rotation as of today.

Wade's 5 minutes would be more than Rui's 4.6 were last year, Norvell's 15 would be more than Tillie's 12.3 were last year, and Samanic's 20 would be more than Zach's 17.2 were last year, so I don't think this is as insane of a prediction as what you might be thinking.

kitzbuel
07-26-2017, 01:33 PM
IMO, the more Larsen plays, the better the Zags will be. If he is playing well enough to get lots of quality minutes, JW3, Tillie and Rui start sliding into more natural positions. That is my hope.

soccerdud
07-26-2017, 02:22 PM
IMO, the more Larsen plays, the better the Zags will be. If he is playing well enough to get lots of quality minutes, JW3, Tillie and Rui start sliding into more natural positions. That is my hope.

agreed.

my best case scenario projection (starters first listed at each position):
pg: perkins 30, wade 10
sg: melson 25, norvell 5, ayayi 10 (possibly w/ wade's 10 to share the ballhandling duties)
sf: norvell 20, kispert 15, rui 5
pf: jw iii 10, tillie 20, rui 10
c: larsen 25, jw iii 15

totals:
perkins 30, melson 25, norvell 25, jwiii 25, larsen 25, tillie 20, kispert 15, rui 15, wade 10, ayayi 10.

i really don't see how onwuasur would fit in. definitely wouldn't mind that graduate transfer who just left KU or a euro 5 tho.

Coach Crazy
07-26-2017, 03:46 PM
I'll take a stab at it:

PG - Perkins 25, Onwuasor 10, Wade 5
SG - Onwuasor 10, Norvell 15, Melson 15
SF - Melson 10, Rui 15, Kispert 15
PF - Samanic 20, Tillie 15, Williams 5
C - Williams 20, Larsen 15, Tillie 5

Or in other words, I think we are far from set on our rotation as of today.

Wade's 5 minutes would be more than Rui's 4.6 were last year, Norvell's 15 would be more than Tillie's 12.3 were last year, and Samanic's 20 would be more than Zach's 17.2 were last year, so I don't think this is as insane of a prediction as what you might be thinking.

Wait, where did Samanic come from? Is there rumblings behind the scenes that he's a lean?

And I have a hard time seeing Wade being held from playing time if he shows up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Reborn
07-26-2017, 04:16 PM
[QUOTE=Reborn;1326464]One other thing that needs to be looked at this year is how tough our OOC schedule is at the beginning of the year. In the month of November we play Washington, Ohio St, most likely Florida, and most likely Duke. And then in first week of December we play Creighton and Villanova. We also play San Diego St on 12/21, and so far there is no Battle in Seattle but that could change. That game is usually in December. Fortunately for us we have four players returning who got significant minutes last year: JW3, Perkins, Melson and Tillie. I think Norvell will start, and Hachimura, Larsen and Kispert will be a tough bench, imo. All 3 of these players should contribute in a positive way when they are on the court. And of course there is Wade, Jones and maybe Ayayi."

I spent some time looking up how many returning players and starters that Ohio St, Stanford and Duke have. I think Allen is the only player returning who scored 4 ppg or more last year; so they will be reloading early in the season also. Ohio loses a lot also. There top scorer is returning (14 ppg), After that they look like Gonzaga, returning 2 players scoring 6.2 and 7.2 per game. The team with the most returning experience is Stanford. They return all 7 of their top six scorers. The top scorer is Reid Travis who averaged 17.4 ppg last year. Most of us remember Travis from recruiting a few years back. They have a player, Pickins who averaged 12.6. The others averaged between 6.7 and 9.4. Stanford lost a lot of games last year, but they were young. And think they will be tough at the beginning of the year.

GonzagasaurusFlex
07-26-2017, 05:27 PM
IMO, the more Larsen plays, the better the Zags will be. If he is playing well enough to get lots of quality minutes, JW3, Tillie and Rui start sliding into more natural positions. That is my hope.

Agree with you kitzbuel that JWIII's best position is the 4 and I hope Larsen earns quality minutes at the 5. OTOH, wouldn't mind seeing stretches with JWIII at the 5 playing alongside Tillie (4) and Rui/Kispert (3). That's some nice size and athleticism on the floor for the Zags.

Reborn
07-26-2017, 05:50 PM
Agree with you kitzbuel that JWIII's best position is the 4 and I hope Larsen earns quality minutes at the 5. OTOH, wouldn't mind seeing stretches with JWIII at the 5 playing alongside Tillie (4) and Rui/Kispert (3). That's some nice size and athleticism on the floor for the Zags.

Here is where I have some doubts about Larsen. Larsen is going to be a Freshmen, and imo Freshmen centers have not had big roles on Zag teams in the past. Even Collins only played 17 minutes a game. I believe Collins could have played more if he had learned how to stay out of foul trouble, but I don't think Larsen is anywhere near ready to have a big role on the team. I expect him to get minutes more like Tillie did last year. 12+. I think Gonzaga is going to play small next yea, and if that is the case that will really be something to look forward to because Few and his coaches may be building a bran new offense as I write this post.

Zagdawg
07-26-2017, 08:06 PM
Collins had 2 things working against him for minutes --- his foul issues and the best college basketball center in the country ahead of him in the depth chart.

Larsen won't have any center ahead of him and I do not know about his tendency to commit fouls-- hoping he is healed up and can provide a solid presence down low.

Reborn
07-26-2017, 09:01 PM
Collins had 2 things working against him for minutes --- his foul issues and the best college basketball center in the country ahead of him in the depth chart.

Larsen won't have any center ahead of him and I do not know about his tendency to commit fouls-- hoping he is healed up and can provide a solid presence down low.

I just read an article that said that Larsen has put on 24 pounds. Good news I think.

kitzbuel
07-27-2017, 02:38 PM
I just read an article that said that Larsen has put on 24 pounds. Good news I think.Can you dig it up again?

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

Zagdawg
07-27-2017, 06:44 PM
https://www.slipperstillfits.com/2017/7/27/16048470/gonzaga-jacob-larsen-is-an-absolute-mystery

Reborn
07-27-2017, 06:52 PM
This article adds nothing at all to what fans have said here on this forum about Larsen, that there are still doubts that he is healthy enough to be a force this year. The writer of the article also believes, as I do, that Larsen's minutes on the court will be somewhat limited because he is only a freshman. I thought it was a reality based article, and for that I am quite happy. Few and his assistants are going to have to create a new way to play the game of basketball without a 7 foot rim protector. The author does say that most college basketball programs today do not have 7 foot centers, and I believe he feels that Larsen's limitations this season won't hurt the Zags.

Reborn
07-28-2017, 06:20 AM
Right now i believe that we have 4 players (Larsen, JW3, Tillie and Hachimura) who will use up the minutes allocated for the the two post positions. If you use the standard that there are 40 minutes allocated for each position, then that would give a total of 80 minutes designated to the two post positions. I think Few will try to get 30 min. out of JW3, but because of past injuries to his knees Few may want to play it safe (if he can) and keep JW3"s minutes to around 27. That leaves 53 minutes for the other three post players. Let's be safe and keep Larsen's minutes to about 14 a game (a little higher than Tillie's 12 min per game last season). That leaves 39 minutes to divide between Tillie and Hachimura. Based on what I saw in the FIBA tournament I would give the upper hand to Hachimura, but not by too much. I'm going to give Rui 22 minutes and Tillie 17, which is the averaged minutes that Collins played last year.

I know there are many fans who think Hachimura will play the small forward (also called the #3 position). I may have thought that also at one point but as we are learning, Kispert appears to be quite a talent and is going to be awarded a lot of minutes on the court. Because I believe that the three players playing the #2 and #3 positions are going to be inter-changeable this year, I think I would break up the 80 minutes this way: Melson 28 minutes, Norvell 27 minutes and Kispert 25 minutes. If I am overestimating Kispert's talent then I would take away some of his minutes and give them to Hachimura and Tillie. If this were to be the case than Rui would get some playing time at the small forward (or #3) poosition. Let's say that Few only gives Kispert 17 minutes than I'd divide those extra 8 minutes between Hachimura and Tillie. Or there is one other option for those 8 minutes that I originally gave to Kispert. Few could give them to Wade if Wade is also as good as many are predicting. I have Wade down for only ten minutes at the point guard position, but I could also see him playing at either of the two wing positions, the #2 or #3.

As I am suggesting, there are a lot of options that Few has. I think that we will see a lot of players playing the 2 and 3 positions and for this reason in all honesty I would say that really, there is not just one person, or even two, who will just be playing any of the 3 guard positions (#1,2 and 3). These are reasons why I am really looking forward to seeing the Zags play in the upcoming season. I want to see what the coaches can do with this very talented group of players.

zagfan24
07-28-2017, 08:15 AM
It's a versatile group, which will be nice. The ability to give different looks and lineups was a strength of the Zags last year and I think will continue to be this year. As basketball has generally moved away from traditional position designations and you see players who are more dynamic in what role they fill on both ends of the floor, it really becomes advantageous to have guys who can do different things and take on different roles within various lineup "sets." The variability in player style also makes preparing for Gonzaga more difficult and can give the Zags the opportunity to hone in on an opponent's weakness. That's one of the reasons I'm really excited about Kispert...I think he will be able to fill the swiss army knife role very well.

NotoriousZ
07-28-2017, 09:13 AM
Great stuff here people. A couple things I would add is:

(1) Wade is coming off a two year mission and he's not your average freshman to begin with anyway. No way does he get less than 10 minutes a game.

(2) Larson is the question mark for me. I have no idea how good he's going to be. Regardless I feel that this team will do great with J3 at the 5 most of the time, and splitting the majority of the minutes at the 4 between Tillie and Rui.