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zagsfanforlife
07-10-2017, 08:26 PM
I say this as a Zach supporter-- loved his game at GU, albeit brief and really think he has a bright future if he adds weight, gets stronger with the ball, adds maturity and continues to hone his jumper. I really do hope Portland fans and more importantly Portland management give him a chance to see to fruition a kid become a man. I am watching him in summer league, now twice, and man does he look pretty awful--- and this is against 90% of guys that will not be in the NBA. The first game he had 7 or so turnovers and shot a very low percentage. This game here he picked up 4 fouls in the first 3 minutes of the game (literally) and is about 0-5 so far. He is missing bunnies, getting pushed out of the way and does not look like he belongs right now.

The NBA is not really a wait and see league. Fans are already on social media ragging on the pick. My question is how many years does Portland management give for Zach to get NBA ready?

I know its early but it is worrisome how out of place he looks.

Reborn
07-10-2017, 08:32 PM
I never believed he was ready for the NBA. He most likely made a business decision, and may or may not suffer the consequences. IMO he should have returned to GU for at least another year. If you look at his whole body of work over the year, I feel both Tillie and Hachimura will contribute more to the Zags than Zach did. This is one reason I am looking forward to next year, I want to see if my opinion in July comes out to be true in December through March. I hope that neither Tillie or Hachimura make the same mistake.

thespywhozaggedme
07-10-2017, 08:58 PM
D'Aron Fox was severely out played by Alex Caruso. Like Carusso completely owned him. Two words: Summer League

zagsfanforlife
07-10-2017, 08:59 PM
D'Aron Fox was severely out played by Alex Caruso. Like Carusso completely owned him. Two words: Summer League

I hear ya.. but Fox still looks like he belongs.

thespywhozaggedme
07-10-2017, 09:06 PM
I hear ya.. but Fox still looks like he belongs.

And Caruso looked like he was the number two pick in the draft not Ball, yet he will be lucky to get a Lakers camp invite. Summer league means absolutely nothing.

zagsfanforlife
07-10-2017, 09:09 PM
And Caruso looked like he was the number two pick in the draft not Ball, yet he will be lucky to get a Lakers camp invite. Summer league means absolutely nothing.

It means nothing other than what you can see with your eyes. Zach has a LOOOOOOOOONNNNGGGG way to go. I just hope Portland and their fans gives him the time to make it happen.

zagsfanforlife
07-10-2017, 09:09 PM
And Caruso looked like he was the number two pick in the draft not Ball, yet he will be lucky to get a Lakers camp invite. Summer league means absolutely nothing.

Ball didnt even play---do you even watch the games, or just comment based on box scores?

thespywhozaggedme
07-10-2017, 09:17 PM
Ball didnt even play---do you even watch the games, or just comment based on box scores?

Yes. You're missing the point completely. Ball has been mediocre at best in his summer league appearances today he did not play because of the supposed groin injury, many online were saying it was really because he was afraid to play Fox and be embarrassed on national TV. Caruso stepped in and dominated fox and looked like it was he that was the number two pick, not Ball. But we know that Lonzo ball is the better player. You are over reacting based on completely irrelevant summer league games. That is my point.

zagsfanforlife
07-10-2017, 09:22 PM
Yes. You're missing the point completely. Ball has been mediocre at best in his summer league appearances today he did not play because of the supposed groin injury, many online were saying it was really because he was afraid to play Fox and be embarrassed on national TV. Caruso stepped in and dominated fox and looked like it was he that was the number two pick, not Ball. But we know that Lonzo ball is the better player. You are over reacting based on completely irrelevant summer league games. That is my point.

You must have not watched him play-- Zach just looks like he does not belong. Whether the game counts or it doesnt is irrelevant. It is still a prove it season for Zach and all rookies-- and his play so far is much cause for concern. The Portland fans are sure concerned.

zag944
07-10-2017, 10:29 PM
Only so many guys in summer league have secure places on a roster. I would think that in a lot of cases those players are being asked to work on something out of their comfort zone. It is a good place to kick the tires on the investment that was made with a high draft pick. On top of that, there are a lot of ither guys in summer league playing with a sense of serious urgency for obvious reasons. Sometimes a player might just plain not look right under these circumstances. I liken it to the spring training pitcher getting rocked a bit because he is working on a new pitch or something.

Like spy said, it is summer league.

Coach Crazy
07-11-2017, 04:43 AM
Yes. You're missing the point completely. Ball has been mediocre at best in his summer league appearances today he did not play because of the supposed groin injury, many online were saying it was really because he was afraid to play Fox and be embarrassed on national TV. Caruso stepped in and dominated fox and looked like it was he that was the number two pick, not Ball. But we know that Lonzo ball is the better player. You are over reacting based on completely irrelevant summer league games. That is my point.

Yeah. Kevin Durant didn't play well in Summer League, either. I think he shot something like 33%? It's summer league, it means very little.


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Coach Crazy
07-11-2017, 04:45 AM
You must have not watched him play-- Zach just looks like he does not belong. Whether the game counts or it doesnt is irrelevant. It is still a prove it season for Zach and all rookies-- and his play so far is much cause for concern. The Portland fans are sure concerned.

You're trying really hard to convince people that Zach doesn't belong. It's Summer League. Do you have a statistical case for what you are trying to prove?


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bartruff1
07-11-2017, 04:58 AM
It is getting dark here, but didn't Morrison dominate this event and got a offer from Europe ......and ended up being the tallest poker player at Northern Quest Casino?

I am confident that Collins has no regrets about his decision...and neither does Portland. I could care less about social media.

thebigsmoove
07-11-2017, 06:04 AM
I never believed he was ready for the NBA. He most likely made a business decision, and may or may not suffer the consequences. IMO he should have returned to GU for at least another year. If you look at his whole body of work over the year, I feel both Tillie and Hachimura will contribute more to the Zags than Zach did. This is one reason I am looking forward to next year, I want to see if my opinion in July comes out to be true in December through March. I hope that neither Tillie or Hachimura make the same mistake.

By-product of the age of social media. Everyone has a hot take. Who cares? Zach has 2 years to prove he belongs enough to get the Blazers or any team that acquires his rights to re-up for another 2 year team option. He will have growing pains, he is definitely raw in relation to other NBA bigs, but his physical skill set and the spark he showed last year at Gonzaga should prove enough about him for him to develop over time. He is so young, and needs time to grow. Some guys develop and earn big paydays (Kelly Olynyk) and some falter and end up in Europe or elsewhere (Austin Daye). Not everone is hungry enough. That is the beauty of the NBA, the cream usually rises to the top.

titopoet
07-11-2017, 06:15 AM
I think people have a misconception as to how the NBA operates. Portland did not draft him thinking him as an All-Star yet or even ever... though they would welcome it if it happens. They will want him to play a role and will work with him on his development and his development on what role they want him to play within their system. Rather that seeing him as a complete player, they are looking at him more like clay to fit in with their way of doing things. Zach will have a huge learning curve as will all the rookies will have. Ball will probably have the easy time as the Lakers will mold the team to fit his strengths. Collins will be a supporting player to the current stars of Portland and the Trailblazers already know what role Zach will be asked to play... coming off the bench in the roatation to do certain specific things like rebound, hit the corners for threes and rim protection. All the while, they will work with him on his player development. (He is an investment so they will put a lot into his player development... more so that is allowed by NCAA rules.)

In the summer league, because the nature of the summer league, he is doing things in a starting role that when camp states, he won't be asked to do. If he can fulfill his role, become a better player, and contribute off the bench, they will think him a successful pick. Success being measured in averaging more than 3 pts or more, spot duty in the rotation, setting screens, and providing valuable minutes off the bench, while learning the NBA way. They will expect more in his second and third years, but that is what they are looking for. Anything more and they will be estatic.

thebigsmoove
07-11-2017, 06:19 AM
He is an investment so they will put a lot into his player development... more so that is allowed by NCAA rules.

Bingo. He is getting 2 things he wouldnt have gotten at Gonzaga. Boat loads of cash...and unlimited resources and time (while under contract) to develop as a player under the supervision of the highest qualified Basketball instructors in the world. No offense to our staff, but Gonzaga is not the Portland Trailblazers.

bdmiller7
07-11-2017, 07:41 AM
I still don't get why people think he would be better off staying another year. Sure he would be a better player after another year in college, but he's also going to be a lot better after playing a year in the NBA or G league. He gets unlimited practice with NBA coaches, more games, and no academic responsibilities. Plus he makes 3 mill and is one year closer to free agency. There's a reason very few projected top picks return to school.

bdmiller7
07-11-2017, 08:08 AM
Also, very few rookies come in and light it up. Not many are actually NBA ready. 5 rookies averaged double figures scoring this year, but the only 1 over 12 ppg was Embiid who was drafted 2 years ago.

zagfan24
07-11-2017, 08:51 AM
I still don't get why people think he would be better off staying another year. Sure he would be a better player after another year in college, but he's also going to be a lot better after playing a year in the NBA or G league. He gets unlimited practice with NBA coaches, more games, and no academic responsibilities. Plus he makes 3 mill and is one year closer to free agency. There's a reason very few projected top picks return to school.

IMO, the thinking isn't so much that player development isn't better in the NBA. What I think some people fear (and I don't 100% agree or disagree) is that the patience and commitment of NBA teams is less significant. If a player doesn't quickly show return on investment, it's common to slide down the depth chart or get traded. Team chaos is also more common. Most teams in the lottery are there because they were already poor to mediocre, and so the nasty cycle of coaching changes, player movement, etc. can start to occur which does (IMO) significantly hamper player development. Too many players are hurt by playing for multiple coaches/teams and in different systems in their first few years in the league. I believe that Austin Daye is a good example of a player who simply never took hold in one system long enough to develop into the solid role player he could have been.

Yes, NBA teams tend to draft players based on potential. But teams are also swinging for the fences, looking for the next star. Put another way, I think many teams, given 4 draft picks over 2 years, would prefer 2 stars and 2 busts to 4 solid starters. So, they are quick to move on from a solid starter in search for a star. That's just what I have perceived.

All that is to say that I think Zach will be fine and has an outstanding career ahead. I do think it will take him time, and I truly hope that Portland commits to his development because he has the skill set and work ethic to be a great player.

zagsfanforlife
07-11-2017, 10:08 AM
IMO, the thinking isn't so much that player development isn't better in the NBA. What I think some people fear (and I don't 100% agree or disagree) is that the patience and commitment of NBA teams is less significant. If a player doesn't quickly show return on investment, it's common to slide down the depth chart or get traded. Team chaos is also more common. Most teams in the lottery are there because they were already poor to mediocre, and so the nasty cycle of coaching changes, player movement, etc. can start to occur which does (IMO) significantly hamper player development. Too many players are hurt by playing for multiple coaches/teams and in different systems in their first few years in the league. I believe that Austin Daye is a good example of a player who simply never took hold in one system long enough to develop into the solid role player he could have been.

Yes, NBA teams tend to draft players based on potential. But teams are also swinging for the fences, looking for the next star. Put another way, I think many teams, given 4 draft picks over 2 years, would prefer 2 stars and 2 busts to 4 solid starters. So, they are quick to move on from a solid starter in search for a star. That's just what I have perceived.

All that is to say that I think Zach will be fine and has an outstanding career ahead. I do think it will take him time, and I truly hope that Portland commits to his development because he has the skill set and work ethic to be a great player.

This was my point. Thank you for taking the time to present it better than i did. The NBA is not a patient league-- even with guys drafted in the first round. My point which many misconstrued was that i hope Portland management and their fanbase has the patience to keep Zach around-- because it will take him a few years to develop.

thebigsmoove
07-11-2017, 10:13 AM
This was my point. Thank you for taking the time to present it better than i did. The NBA is not a patient league-- even with guys drafted in the first round. My point which many misconstrued was that i hope Portland management and their fanbase has the patience to keep Zach around-- because it will take him a few years to develop.

Whether its a patient league or not, Stay 4 years and dont get drafted at all ala Karno...Or leave as a freshman when your potential is at an all time high and get a guaranteed contract worth several million and a chance to work at your game with the best minds in the world at your craft...Win-win...

Another great example of this was Elias Harris...He was a projected lottery pick as a freshman, then decided to come back and slowly fell down the boards until boom...4 years, and not picked.

kitzbuel
07-11-2017, 10:39 AM
Good points, 24.

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Jstock12
07-11-2017, 01:39 PM
IMO, the thinking isn't so much that player development isn't better in the NBA. What I think some people fear (and I don't 100% agree or disagree) is that the patience and commitment of NBA teams is less significant. If a player doesn't quickly show return on investment, it's common to slide down the depth chart or get traded. Team chaos is also more common. Most teams in the lottery are there because they were already poor to mediocre, and so the nasty cycle of coaching changes, player movement, etc. can start to occur which does (IMO) significantly hamper player development. Too many players are hurt by playing for multiple coaches/teams and in different systems in their first few years in the league. I believe that Austin Daye is a good example of a player who simply never took hold in one system long enough to develop into the solid role player he could have been.

Yes, NBA teams tend to draft players based on potential. But teams are also swinging for the fences, looking for the next star. Put another way, I think many teams, given 4 draft picks over 2 years, would prefer 2 stars and 2 busts to 4 solid starters. So, they are quick to move on from a solid starter in search for a star. That's just what I have perceived.

All that is to say that I think Zach will be fine and has an outstanding career ahead. I do think it will take him time, and I truly hope that Portland commits to his development because he has the skill set and work ethic to be a great player.

I agree! Also, another important factor to consider is that there are a lot of fully physically matured players in Summer League. A lot of good Euroleague players come there to showcase themselves, like Pangos' teammate Augusto Lima for example - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3W4njMaV4M - it's really hard for Zach to compete with these guys, he's just not strong enough yet, despite being the more talented player.

basketballzag
07-19-2017, 05:51 PM
I say this as a Zach supporter-- loved his game at GU, albeit brief and really think he has a bright future if he adds weight, gets stronger with the ball, adds maturity and continues to hone his jumper. I really do hope Portland fans and more importantly Portland management give him a chance to see to fruition a kid become a man. I am watching him in summer league, now twice, and man does he look pretty awful--- and this is against 90% of guys that will not be in the NBA. The first game he had 7 or so turnovers and shot a very low percentage. This game here he picked up 4 fouls in the first 3 minutes of the game (literally) and is about 0-5 so far. He is missing bunnies, getting pushed out of the way and does not look like he belongs right now.

The NBA is not really a wait and see league. Fans are already on social media ragging on the pick. My question is how many years does Portland management give for Zach to get NBA ready?

I know its early but it is worrisome how out of place he looks.

Zach Collins will get one year with Portland and the majority of that year will be learning how to play in the G-League. He didn't even look like he belonged starting for a college program in the summer league and it speaks volumes as to why Karno was the starter and it wasn't because he was a senior. The million dollar question is whether Zach will be able to mentally sustain the pressure from the national criticism that he is a draft bust. This sort of pressure can really do damage to a players mental stability as to whether they even belong in a professional league or whether they should be playing in Monrovia.

willandi
07-19-2017, 08:16 PM
Zach Collins will get one year with Portland and the majority of that year will be learning how to play in the G-League. He didn't even look like he belonged starting for a college program in the summer league and it speaks volumes as to why Karno was the starter and it wasn't because he was a senior. The million dollar question is whether Zach will be able to mentally sustain the pressure from the national criticism that he is a draft bust. This sort of pressure can really do damage to a players mental stability as to whether they even belong in a professional league or whether they should be playing in Monrovia.

The threads here on the forum should have toughened him up some!

basketballzag
07-20-2017, 06:29 PM
The threads here on the forum should have toughened him up some!

Sadly they didn't toughen up the Collins kids because both are in for a world of criticism this year. Zach's agent needs to talk to the dad in the worst way imaginable because he is doing his son and the Trailblazers front office no favors what so ever with his communication skills to people who matter.

Bogozags
07-21-2017, 07:54 AM
Whether its a patient league or not, Stay 4 years and dont get drafted at all ala Karno...Or leave as a freshman when your potential is at an all time high and get a guaranteed contract worth several million and a chance to work at your game with the best minds in the world at your craft...Win-win...

Another great example of this was Elias Harris...He was a projected lottery pick as a freshman, then decided to come back and slowly fell down the boards until boom...4 years, and not picked.

I never thought Zach was ready for the NBA BUT it is all about money...he signed a decent contract where he will make enough money to live comfortably the rest of his life regardless if he plays any basketball after the contract expires; however, that being said, he has three years in which to prove he belongs and I believe he will be 22 at that time. His frame can carry a lot more muscle and that is what he needs as well as an "attitude" to compete with anyone in the NBA.

Having met and spoke with him in Vegas before he enrolled in GU, he was an awfully mature young man for an 18 year old...I think he will work his tail off and become a journeyman in the league...IMO

bartruff1
07-21-2017, 08:52 AM
I never thought Zach was ready for the NBA BUT it is all about money...he signed a decent contract where he will make enough money to live comfortably the rest of his life regardless if he plays any basketball after the contract expires; however, that being said, he has three years in which to prove he belongs and I believe he will be 22 at that time. His frame can carry a lot more muscle and that is what he needs as well as an "attitude" to compete with anyone in the NBA.

Having met and spoke with him in Vegas before he enrolled in GU, he was an awfully mature young man for an 18 year old...I think he will work his tail off and become a journeyman in the league...IMO

The kid is making all the right choices....I am under the impression that parents (dads ?) should just keep their mouths shut when it comes to the media including social media....but I am not the boss of them...