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View Full Version : GU Hoops Problems Abound? Coming Off a Great Season, Need Help, G



TravelinZag
04-22-2017, 04:11 PM
Consider: Zags would be losing its top five scorers (73% of its points), 73% of its rebounds, 63% of assists, 83% of blocks, 63% of steals, and 62% of minutes played. Huge losses on offense, defense, maturity and experience, and no one able to assert the floor leadership we've lost. Depth nearly totally gone, as is cohesiveness.

No one could credibly project an undefeated OOC schedule, or a one-loss conference record (or two or three). Would leave us desperately routing for the Zags while (sadly) hoping for injuries on opponents rosters while depending upon no injuries or illnesses on ours.

Knew reloading would be more difficult than in the past, but did not anticipate it could possibly be this bad. Finishing third (essentially last) in the WCC would be a disaster, as would failing to make the NCAAs. (Participating in the NIT would be a non-starter: zero credit for winning and additional damage for losing,). Eight or more losses on the year would be totally discrediting, and fuel the doubters.

In short, all of the potential recruiting gains resulting from the great 2016-17 season could be gone. In fact, NO recruiting benefits have yet appeared, even as slots have opened. Very sad for returning players and coaches; it is as though there is no reward for their stunning success. Help! May need a miracle or two.

Darkest before the dawn? Hope so. Long, hard fall.

Go Zags. Anywhere and everywhere to shore up the front court with graduate transfers bringing talent and leadership now to buy a year and 2018 recruits for the future.

jazzdelmar
04-22-2017, 04:13 PM
Hard to refute. Brave new world.

gu03alum
04-22-2017, 04:14 PM
I think you should stay away from rope, bridges, and knives.



Gonzaga will be fine.

gonzagafan62
04-22-2017, 04:21 PM
Please.

1st he's not leaving.

Two the streak will continue

3. We've been in this situation so much in not sure how you or jazz can think this way

TravelinZag
04-22-2017, 04:24 PM
Thanks for the cautions. Really depressed as each new blow lands. Certain the Zags will be "fine." Just that is no longer enough. Perspective helps -- Michigan State, a great program and coach missed the dance this year. Felt for them when it happened. Couldn't conceived it could happen to the Zags. Ever. Or at least during the Few era. Sound like an unrealistic, and perhaps arrogant level of entitlement (no pun intended)? Guilty. But fooled myself into believing that continued success was guaranteed. Oh sure, perhaps a bump in the road year when the Zags only made it to the elite eight, but immediately bounced back the next year. What does realism have to do with expectation and hope?

Did I forget how hard it was for any program to build into the successes all of the he fans enjoyed. Yup!! Shame on me. The only excuse I can offer (and it's pathetically weak) is that I got to a point where Zag basketball became not an interest, but an obsession bordering on becoming my entire life. Need an equivalent to Coach Few's fly fishing to relax and realize that there are other things in life. Worse, I know I am far from alone. Thank God I went to Phoenix! Please excuse introspections of a Zag fanatic! And if you share them, take heart we are not alone.

The Zags will field a team next year, and I'll follow it with vigor and faithfullness. They will do better than fine; it just might possibly take more than one more year to win the title. But they will! And we will share their exaltation and sorrow along the way. We will support them, and thank them for the effort they make, and the inspiration they are. They never give up (thanks Jimmy V), and neither will we fans.

Go Zags! So very proud of you. We'll not forget.

thespywhozaggedme
04-22-2017, 04:31 PM
I still can't believe that so many people don't realize just how talented this team is. Killian would have averaged at least 10 and seven if he was our starter last year. Cory Kispert has a very good chance of being the conference rookie of the year. We have P5 talent in a G5 league. Fret not my friends.

gu03alum
04-22-2017, 04:34 PM
I still can't believe that so many people don't realize just how talented this team is. Killian would have averaged at least 10 and seven if he was our starter last year. Cory Kispert has a very good chance of being the conference rookie of the year. We have P5 talent in a G5 league. Fret not my friends.

Yes

bartruff1
04-22-2017, 04:35 PM
Michigan State made the Tournament this year (2017) and Gonzaga will make it next year...with or without Williams.

GoZags
04-22-2017, 04:48 PM
Consider: Zags would be losing its top five scorers (73% of its points), 73% of its rebounds, 63% of assists, 83% of blocks, 63% of steals, and 62% of minutes played. Huge losses on offense, defense, maturity and experience, and no one able to assert the floor leadership we've lost. Depth nearly totally gone, as is cohesiveness.

No one could credibly project an undefeated OOC schedule, or a one-loss conference record (or two or three). Would leave us desperately routing for the Zags while (sadly) hoping for injuries on opponents rosters while depending upon no injuries or illnesses on ours.

Knew reloading would be more difficult than in the past, but did not anticipate it could possibly be this bad. Finishing third (essentially last) in the WCC would be a disaster, as would failing to make the NCAAs. (Participating in the NIT would be a non-starter: zero credit for winning and additional damage for losing,). Eight or more losses on the year would be totally discrediting, and fuel the doubters.

In short, all of the potential recruiting gains resulting from the great 2016-17 season could be gone. In fact, NO recruiting benefits have yet appeared, even as slots have opened. Very sad for returning players and coaches; it is as though there is no reward for their stunning success. Help! May need a miracle or two.

Darkest before the dawn? Hope so. Long, hard fall.

Go Zags. Anywhere and everywhere to shore up the front court with graduate transfers bringing talent and leadership now to buy a year and 2018 recruits for the future.

Was bound to happen at some point.

Too bad Few, Lloyd, Daniels and Michaelson have been asleep at the wheel.
Too bad other than the guys that left there was zero talent on the Zags.
Too bad GU doesn't have anybody coming in.

Woe is me. Woe is the Zags. Woe is Zag Nation.

Sure was fun while it lasted.

Ekrub
04-22-2017, 04:52 PM
Haha - no. Norvell, perkins, tillie, silas are a tournament team by themselves. We are loaded and will continue to be.

North Idaho Zag
04-22-2017, 04:59 PM
Hard to refute. Brave new world.

Look! Jazz has a friend! All things are possible... except O.P.'s premise.

GoZags
04-22-2017, 05:23 PM
Hard to refute. Brave new world.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad93/tbkd1/huge.6.34042_zpsp6mcfgwb.jpg (http://s925.photobucket.com/user/tbkd1/media/huge.6.34042_zpsp6mcfgwb.jpg.html)

No Rem. No Shem. No Zach. No Bryan. No Nigel. No chance.
------------
Edited to say ....

Williams isn't going anywhere ... and as we all know Johnathan Williams III is pretty good. and Zach Norvell is pretty good. and Silas Melson is pretty good. and Jacob Larsen is pretty good. and Josh Perkins is pretty good. and Killian Tillie is pretty good. and Rui Hachimura is pretty good. and Jeremy Jones is pretty good. and Dustin Triano is pretty good. and Corey Kispert is pretty good. and Jesse Wade is pretty good. And as a coach, Mark Few is pretty good. Tommy Lloyd is pretty good. Donny Daniels is pretty good. Brian Michaelson is pretty good. New guy (1) is pretty good. New guy (2) is pretty good. New guy (3) is pretty good.

gonzagafan62
04-22-2017, 05:36 PM
Look! Jazz has a friend! All things are possible... except O.P.'s premise.

He's right up there with Ernest Hemingway

ZagsGoZags
04-22-2017, 05:47 PM
The closest we came to not dancing was last year - 15-16
I don't think we will see that again at least in the near future
Williams ought to test the water, he will probably return though.
Our big recruiting years after Ammo, was the second year after he left,
same with KO year, not that Sept and Oct.
Remember Kentucky lost in the early rounds of the NIT not long ago,
in this sense we are glad for the WCC
I think chicken little is not likely to be listened to for quite a while with the Zags.

The stats provided to support this view are similar to the stats when we lost Domas, Kyle W and McClellan.
look what happened
Besides, win or lose, every season is exciting, and they are OUR ZAGS playing
that is what excites me

maynard g krebs
04-22-2017, 05:56 PM
Draft declaration is now the social event of the season. Everybody who's anybody is going. Seriously, with the new rules, it makes no sense not to.
Even if JW3 were to do the unimaginable and stay in the draft pool, the Zags still would be very good. Never had wing talent like Norvell, Kispert, Rui. Would need another big (preferably 2) but that's it. Perimeter is loaded right now.

It is the new world, though. Look at Oregon and UCLA. Both have lost more.

Martin Centre Mad Man
04-22-2017, 05:59 PM
This program will be fine.

We will trade our big centers for a deep crop of long, athletic wings. Killian Tillie and Rui Hachimura are both showing up on future draft boards as likely first round picks. We have four guards on the roster who were rated as Top-75 recruits coming out of high school. Mark Few has made the Sweet Sixteen with less talent and less depth than this.

jazzdelmar
04-22-2017, 06:07 PM
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad93/tbkd1/huge.6.34042_zpsp6mcfgwb.jpg (http://s925.photobucket.com/user/tbkd1/media/huge.6.34042_zpsp6mcfgwb.jpg.html)

No Rem. No Shem. No Zach. No Bryan. No Nigel. No chance.
------------
Edited to say ....

Williams isn't going anywhere ... and as we all know Johnathan Williams III is pretty good. and Zach Norvell is pretty good. and Silas Melson is pretty good. and Jacob Larsen is pretty good. and Josh Perkins is pretty good. and Killian Tillie is pretty good. and Rui Hachimura is pretty good. and Jeremy Jones is pretty good. and Dustin Triano is pretty good. and Corey Kispert is pretty good. and Jesse Wade is pretty good. And as a coach, Mark Few is pretty good. Tommy Lloyd is pretty good. Donny Daniels is pretty good. Brian Michaelson is pretty good. New guy (1) is pretty good. New guy (2) is pretty good. New guy (3) is pretty good.

Two guys who left were VERY good. Sic transit.......we need more VERYS.

TexasZagFan
04-22-2017, 06:10 PM
Was bound to happen at some point.

Too bad Few, Lloyd, Daniels and Michaelson have been asleep at the wheel.
Too bad other than the guys that left there was zero talent on the Zags.
Too bad GU doesn't have anybody coming in.

Woe is me. Woe is the Zags. Woe is Zag Nation.

Sure was fun while it lasted.

Can we break out the time travel machine and add 12 years to Big D's life? That would solve most of the problems...he's great when he goes one on five, makes Westbrook and Harden look weak.

sylean
04-22-2017, 06:13 PM
it'll be okay!.....we'll get back to our exciting overachieving basketball that was the hallmark many years ago......I hope hope JW stays because he really can be spectacular, but it is what it is...

they'll be okay....we'll be okay.....

GoZags
04-22-2017, 06:18 PM
Two guys who left were VERY good. Sic transit.......we need more VERYS.

Just my opinion, but the two guys that left the previous year were also VERY good (Sabonis/Wiltjer). Kinda hard to know who else CAN be VERY good when there's already a plethora of VERY good players on the floor.

It'll be fun to find out. Oh ... and the Zags will be just fine ....

webspinnre
04-22-2017, 06:21 PM
Not sure where the sky is falling stuff is coming from. He's not hiring an agent, and I would put the chances at him not coming back around 1%.

ehk 21
04-22-2017, 06:21 PM
A couple of things.

First, this is where being in the WCC can be a very good thing. If Gonzaga were in the Big East or some power conference, the transition next year would be a bit more problematic. Yet, I think the WCC will be appropriately challenging on its own.

Second, I'm on this forum because I am from Spokane and have followed Gonzaga basketball for eons and still root for the Zags, but I am an alumnus of the University of Portland. I find the hysteria here to be highly amusing. When I think about what Pilot Basketball has been since I was student there, some of you have no idea what "Situation Critical" is or what a down cycle is in a program. Cry me a river of salty tears why don't you. The Zags will be fine, probably better than fine. Yes, you won't get to the National Championship game, next year. So sad. But, I bet next year's team will present you plenty of positive moments. I lived in Kentucky for awhile; I'm starting to hear things that resemble stuff I used to hear coming from the UK fan base when I peruse this forum...

zag67
04-22-2017, 07:08 PM
As down as some of the forum is, I have to believe in the coaches and the players that they have and will be getting.

1. Are we going to be as good as last year - No, but that does not mean we will not win our share of games and make the tournament next year.

2. Look at the players that we know are returning or are coming in:
PG - Perkins, Wade
SG - Melson, Norvelle
SM - RUI, Kispert, Jones
PF - Tillie, Rui (Hopefully JWIII)
C - Larsen, Edwards (?)

3. Are we going to be thin - Yes
4. Are we going to have to grow quickly - Yes
5. Are we going to lose 3 or 4 games in the OOC - Probably - But we will be growing as we go.
6. WCC league play will have many close games and we will probably not go undefeated
7. WCC tournament will be close

Also I can hope that we will get one or two more added to our team.

Now depending on how we do in the OOC and League we still might get an at large, but winning the tournament will solidify another year in the tournament.

CDC84
04-22-2017, 08:26 PM
Next year's schedule is probably going to be more daunting than this year's as well. But that could break both ways. GU could nail down a couple of huge non-con wins that would allow them the "freedom" to lose at, say, Portland and Santa Clara. But the tougher non-con schedule could also result in more losses than GU can afford.

If the streak ends it just ends. The regular season league title streak went as well. I think what is far more crucial than worrying about next season's team is to be worrying about the future. The staff really, really needs top shelf recruiting classes in 2018 and 2019 to restock the cupboard. Also, they need to get a guy or two they wouldn't have gotten if they hadn't made the national title game. I feel it is really crucial that the staff take advantage of this while the iron is hot.

MDABE80
04-22-2017, 09:30 PM
Consider: Zags would be losing its top five scorers (73% of its points), 73% of its rebounds, 63% of assists, 83% of blocks, 63% of steals, and 62% of minutes played. Huge losses on offense, defense, maturity and experience, and no one able to assert the floor leadership we've lost. Depth nearly totally gone, as is cohesiveness.

No one could credibly project an undefeated OOC schedule, or a one-loss conference record (or two or three). Would leave us desperately routing for the Zags while (sadly) hoping for injuries on opponents rosters while depending upon no injuries or illnesses on ours.

Knew reloading would be more difficult than in the past, but did not anticipate it could possibly be this bad. Finishing third (essentially last) in the WCC would be a disaster, as would failing to make the NCAAs. (Participating in the NIT would be a non-starter: zero credit for winning and additional damage for losing,). Eight or more losses on the year would be totally discrediting, and fuel the doubters.

In short, all of the potential recruiting gains resulting from the great 2016-17 season could be gone. In fact, NO recruiting benefits have yet appeared, even as slots have opened. Very sad for returning players and coaches; it is as though there is no reward for their stunning success. Help! May need a miracle or two.

Darkest before the dawn? Hope so. Long, hard fall.

Go Zags. Anywhere and everywhere to shore up the front court with graduate transfers bringing talent and leadership now to buy a year and 2018 recruits for the future.

No matter how dour, we will never hope for an injury so we might win a game! My God!

gonzagafan62
04-22-2017, 10:27 PM
No matter how dour, we will never hope for an injury so we might win a game! My God!

Exactly

ProVeeZag
04-22-2017, 11:15 PM
Unless I missed the news, Mark Few isn't testing the waters (other than those he can drop a fly into). What's it been, about 3 -4 weeks since he was voted National coach of the year. The guts of GU basketball over the past 18 years has been Coach Few, the coaching staff he has put together (Tommy Lloyd-Donny Daniels stick out), and the players he is able to recruit...and then develop. I just can't get too worried about not making the tournament next season at this point. One poster says, yes, Gonzaga will "field a team next season". Get a grip. Perkins-Melson-Norvell-Tillie is a decent nucleus to start with, and I'd be very surprised if JWIII isn't back and having a monster senior season. Fold in J Wade and Kispert, who should both be much better in March than they will be in December. WCC could well be a 2-bid league again next season. I suspect we'll be hearing encouraging news on the transfer front as well ... playing and competing in the Final 4 puts us on the front-burner of the recruiting wars. Should be another great Zag team next year once Few gets all the gears meshing together.

jpn17
04-23-2017, 07:02 AM
I disagree, even if Williams leaves. Last year Gonzaga lost Wiltjer and Sabonis, and had to replace 4 starters and no one knew that Karnowski would be back and people were wondering how Gonzaga was going to replace everything they lost. And look how good of a year they had. Gonzaga will be young next year, even moreso if Williams leaves, but the guys coming back and coming in are good. Yes there will be growing pains, but Gonzaga will be fine. Trust the coaches, trust the system. Few and co know what they are doing. JMO.

cjm720
04-23-2017, 07:17 AM
Coach of the Year

Bogozags
04-23-2017, 09:07 AM
Yes we will lose a lot from this year's club but the cupboard isn't bare! There is talent on the bench, seasoned talent too! Larsen will have an entire off season to get stronger and work within the system and he will have a strong presence on the court.

Yes, we might lose 3-5 games next year but BYU might well lose Mika and he was the fuel that made that engine go (imo). SMC loses one of their best PG's in Rahon so we will all be missing parts so our "top 3" teams will be challenged and time will tell if any last minute players fall into our laps this summer.

We had one of the most dominant teams of West Coast Basketball, outside of UCLA back in the late 60's early 70's. No one has won more games and a call here or there and we would have won the Championship! I don't expect those results from GU this season or any in the future. That team was very special just as the '99, '06 and '13 teams were.

I think, barring any serious injuries, we will be extremely competitive in every game we play in the up coming season...

zagsfanforlife
04-23-2017, 09:15 AM
1) I really dont think JWIII goes. If he does, he will not get drafted. Hes undersized to play the 4 in the NBA and cant shoot well enough or ball handle enough to play the 3. Unless he needs to start his Europe career early, he will be back. As another poster said, anyone who is anyone will declare for the draft and not hire an agent.

2) In the shocking moment that he actually does stay in the draft, the team is still talented enough to get to the dance. Do i think its a certainty? No. I think as currently constructed, especially minus JWIII, St Marys wins the conference, meaning we need to finish 2nd and have a good resume to create a 2 bid league. What worries me is Mika coming back to BYU and BYU being nearly as good as GU if Williams did not return. Even if he does return those 3 teams will be in a hunt for spots 1-3.

3) What worries me is that I have high expectations that the title run that we went on this year would prove great dividends in the type of player we are able to snag. Right now-- so far, this has not been the case. David Singleton chooses UCLA, Elijah Brown sounds like he is heading to Oregon and Chase Jeter is looking at programs less successful than ours. Those top prospects that are unsigned are not all of a sudden considering us. We have 4 open scholarships right now. 5 if JWIII left. Discussion about giving JJ a scholly.. not really a fan of good deeds when you are trying to compete for NC's... the basketball mind in me does not see JJ as a real contributor unless he significantly improves his skill set over the summer. If you give him a scholly you are at 3-4 open scholarships... i am not panicking, but i do hope that we can fill those open scholarships with guys that are consistent with us making the National Championship. No Moninghoff's, Kheitas or Hylands to fill open spots.

JPtheBeasta
04-23-2017, 12:02 PM
Lots of teams make it work with one legit big man on the floor at a given time. We've been spoiled with two, with two more on the bench. The Wiltjer/Sabonis lineup was really more of a one man in, four out kind of team. I'm expecting to see some even smaller Zag lineups this coming season and I think it will be a lot of fun to see this team use their athleticism, space the floor, slash, drive-and-kick, and such.

DixieZag
04-23-2017, 12:34 PM
1. When GZ says Players are coming - they're coming. Lately, the "late" comers have been awfully good. I highly doubt all "graduate" txers have announced they're transferring. Plus ...Europe.

2. I think maybe we're under-estimating both Norvelle and Kispert. The way Maynard talks about Kispert (and I trust MK's scouting) it sounds like Corey might've been a 4 star had he come out of the right city/league.

3. The player that I think continually gets left out of the equation is Rui. I am of the opinion that Rui's biggest issue wasn't "Japanese to American" basketball, it was "Japanese to English" communication. Once he's on the same page as every other player, I think he'll be a beast, starting defensively, then rebounding, then whatever.

Just my 2 cents.

Bogozags
04-23-2017, 02:28 PM
1. When GZ says Players are coming - they're coming. Lately, the "late" comers have been awfully good. I highly doubt all "graduate" txers have announced they're transferring. Plus ...Europe.

2. I think maybe we're under-estimating both Norvelle and Kispert. The way Maynard talks about Kispert (and I trust MK's scouting) it sounds like Corey might've been a 4 star had he come out of the right city/league.

3. The player that I think continually gets left out of the equation is Rui. I am of the opinion that Rui's biggest issue wasn't "Japanese to American" basketball, it was "Japanese to English" communication. Once he's on the same page as every other player, I think he'll be a beast, starting defensively, then rebounding, then whatever.

Just my 2 cents.


Dixie I think the following...if we have to play with what we have then IMO Larsen is key...think we would need 20-25 good minutes from him and Rui will have to develop PDQ along with Kispert...I think with JWIII, Tillie and Larsen sharing time at the 4-5 we should be alright...Kispert, Rui and Zach at the SF would also rotate and then with three guards, Josh, Silas and Mr. Wade working the PG-SG positions we will be ok...

So a grad transfer or new recruit coming it would just be bonuses...

Question for anyone: Is that 6'8" Alaskan player a 2017 or 2018 recruit?

thespywhozaggedme
04-23-2017, 03:16 PM
Dixie I think the following...if we have to play with what we have then IMO Larsen is key...think we would need 20-25 good minutes from him and Rui will have to develop PDQ along with Kispert...I think with JWIII, Tillie and Larsen sharing time at the 4-5 we should be alright...Kispert, Rui and Zach at the SF would also rotate and then with three guards, Josh, Silas and Mr. Wade working the PG-SG positions we will be ok...

So a grad transfer or new recruit coming it would just be bonuses...

Question for anyone: Is that 6'8" Alaskan player a 2017 or 2018 recruit?

Kemaka Hepa is 2018

GrizZAG
04-23-2017, 03:26 PM
Ok so I am an eternal optimist. How do we know one or more of these new players isn't a serious sleeper that amazes us next year? I am going to guess one or more blow our doors off with talent and potentially an upgrade somewhere in the lineup. Remember we didn't expect this year to come together like it did. Few makes more with less than any coach in the country. Bank it.

maynard g krebs
04-23-2017, 03:45 PM
1. When GZ says Players are coming - they're coming. Lately, the "late" comers have been awfully good. I highly doubt all "graduate" txers have announced they're transferring. Plus ...Europe.

2. I think maybe we're under-estimating both Norvelle and Kispert. The way Maynard talks about Kispert (and I trust MK's scouting) it sounds like Corey might've been a 4 star had he come out of the right city/league.

3. The player that I think continually gets left out of the equation is Rui. I am of the opinion that Rui's biggest issue wasn't "Japanese to American" basketball, it was "Japanese to English" communication. Once he's on the same page as every other player, I think he'll be a beast, starting defensively, then rebounding, then whatever.

Just my 2 cents.

Well said.

Kispert is a consensus 4 star in every ranking I've seen. He and Norvell both play beyond their years imo. I think all 3 guys you cite will be keys to a different but still very good team. A year or 2 ago, I'd have been 100% certain that JW3 was just testing/ getting feedback; still fairly certain of that but so many players are leaving early now that seem unlikely to make the NBA that you never know. Def need a big if he goes, but assuming he stays I'm happy w/ the returning team as top 25 w/ the potential to be very dangerous at the end of next year, and any additions are icing on an already good cake.

bballbeachbum
04-23-2017, 07:00 PM
Lots of teams make it work with one legit big man on the floor at a given time. We've been spoiled with two, with two more on the bench. The Wiltjer/Sabonis lineup was really more of a one man in, four out kind of team. I'm expecting to see some even smaller Zag lineups this coming season and I think it will be a lot of fun to see this team use their athleticism, space the floor, slash, drive-and-kick, and such.

I'm hoping it's fun too! different clearly, but fun. The D is more the concern for me becasue of the lost rim protectors; some teams don't have any, the Zags had 2 great ones, and JWIII hardly sucked at it. I'm looking forward to seeing how Few and co. adapt defensively. Losing NWG as the lead perimeter defender, and Mathews also, will be tough too but there are others who can and did do it very well on the perimeter last year. But how will the Zags do it in the paint at the rim? They have been forcing the dribble drive into the trees so I'm excited to see what the new trees can provide in that respect. we'll see!

MDABE80
04-23-2017, 07:37 PM
Rui has got a lot to prove. English is a barrier but without it, it's difficult. He's got talent but how much is unknown. He's got tons of athleticism. Whether this translates to a great player is yet unknown. We have hopes only he can fulfill. I hope he does.

JPtheBeasta
04-23-2017, 07:44 PM
I'm hoping it's fun too! different clearly, but fun. The D is more the concern for me becasue of the lost rim protectors; some teams don't have any, the Zags had 2 great ones, and JWIII hardly sucked at it. I'm looking forward to seeing how Few and co. adapt defensively. Losing NWG as the lead perimeter defender, and Mathews also, will be tough too but there are others who can and did do it very well on the perimeter last year. But how will the Zags do it in the paint at the rim? They have been forcing the dribble drive into the trees so I'm excited to see what the new trees can provide in that respect. we'll see!

I agree that defense is a big concern, especially after watching a team that was so cohesive and excellent at it last year. I thought that the whole was much greater than the sum of its parts. Karno was such a rock down low, and we all know what Collins contributed. I really hope JW3 returns, and I think he will. I agree that JW3 is a good defender. We could really use him on both ends of the floor.

GeorgiaZagFan
04-23-2017, 08:41 PM
Consider: Zags would be losing its top five scorers (73% of its points), 73% of its rebounds, 63% of assists, 83% of blocks, 63% of steals, and 62% of minutes played. Huge losses on offense, defense, maturity and experience, and no one able to assert the floor leadership we've lost. Depth nearly totally gone, as is cohesiveness.

No one could credibly project an undefeated OOC schedule, or a one-loss conference record (or two or three). Would leave us desperately routing for the Zags while (sadly) hoping for injuries on opponents rosters while depending upon no injuries or illnesses on ours.

Knew reloading would be more difficult than in the past, but did not anticipate it could possibly be this bad. Finishing third (essentially last) in the WCC would be a disaster, as would failing to make the NCAAs. (Participating in the NIT would be a non-starter: zero credit for winning and additional damage for losing,). Eight or more losses on the year would be totally discrediting, and fuel the doubters.

In short, all of the potential recruiting gains resulting from the great 2016-17 season could be gone. In fact, NO recruiting benefits have yet appeared, even as slots have opened. Very sad for returning players and coaches; it is as though there is no reward for their stunning success. Help! May need a miracle or two.

Darkest before the dawn? Hope so. Long, hard fall.

Go Zags. Anywhere and everywhere to shore up the front court with graduate transfers bringing talent and leadership now to buy a year and 2018 recruits for the future.

This time last year we lost 70% of scoring, 65% of rebounding, No Sabonis, No Wiltjer, no McClellan, no Dranginis, didn't know about Karnowski returning, didn't know what to expect from the 3 transfers, didn't know what to expect from Tillie and Collins ...this happens EVERY year to many of the top college basketball programs ....we will be okay but they do need to find a few more big bodies, especially if JW3 does leave as well....

willandi
04-23-2017, 09:39 PM
Zags have returning or coming (assuming JW3 does)

Perkins and Wade at PG
Norvell at SG and Melson a Combo
Rui and Kispert at the SF and JW3, Tillie and Larsen as the bigs.

Jeremy Jones plays the 3, plus Triano and Beach are guards.

A nine man rotation, and I remember 6'6" Pendo at the 4, so adding nobody and the nine man rotation is strong. Most of the nine, if not all, could start for any other WCC team. AS has been said, Grad Transfers generally aren't known until the end of May or later, and a lot of the Euros aren't known until later. I expect another body or two, but if we have to go with the players we have now, the team will do well...just different than the Karno years and the Collins year.

Birddog
04-24-2017, 05:01 AM
The 17/18 roster may look a little more like the UN General Assembly next season.

zag67
04-24-2017, 05:44 AM
First I want to agree with Dixie and Will about what we have. I am going to assume that JW III comes back.

But I think our defense is going to be better than what some are thinking.

We have Melson, JWIII, Tillie and Perkins from a super solid defensive team. We have Rui that I think will still be at least a year away but with his hops will be a solid backstop. We have Larsen that the coaches were projecting major minutes before being hurt last year. And then we have Norvell who practiced against are starters all last year and therefore played against better players than he will see in many games this year, we also have Jones who I am hoping can become a Hart type of stopper. Then we have Kispert and Wade which will be learning.

On the offensive side I think we will be different but still strong. I think we will live by motion assists and 3 pointers. Drive and kick. We will need to work on fewer turnovers and movement.
But we will have Melson, Perkins, Wade, Norvell, and Kispert that can shoot 3 s. We just need to get a couple of them hot each night. JWIII, Tillie, Rui, and Larsen have to work the boards and the guards have to box out.

I am looking forward to this team they have a lot of potential even if we do not pick up another player. We just need to make it with no injuries.


Go ZAgS.

allbusiness_zag
04-24-2017, 07:08 AM
Hard to refute. Brave new world.

https://media.tenor.co/images/3cc7b80a9565b7ac7043e806da5fc24a/tenor.gif

TravelinZag
04-24-2017, 08:50 AM
1) I really dont think JWIII goes. Unless he needs to start his Europe career early, he will be back.

2) In the shocking moment that he actually does stay in the draft, the team is still talented enough to get to the dance. Do i think its a certainty? No. I think as currently constructed, especially minus JWIII, St Marys wins the conference, meaning we need to finish 2nd and have a good resume to create a 2 bid league. What worries me is Mika coming back to BYU and BYU being nearly as good as GU if Williams did not return. Even if he does return those 3 teams will be in a hunt for spots 1-3.

3) What worries me is that I have high expectations that the title run that we went on this year would prove great dividends in the type of player we are able to snag. Right now-- so far, this has not been the case. David Singleton chooses UCLA, Elijah Brown sounds like he is heading to Oregon and Chase Jeter is looking at programs less successful than ours. Those top prospects that are unsigned are not all of a sudden considering us. We have 4 open scholarships right now. 5 if JWIII left. ... i am not panicking, but i do hope that we can fill those open scholarships with guys that are consistent with us making the National Championship. No Moninghoff's, Kheitas or Hylands to fill open spots.

Sadly, I agree with you. If there are any grad transfers or Euros that could provide immediate help, the fans and this board are not aware of them. Prospects are really thin among class of 2017's uncommitted players. None would provide immediate help, and very few worth considering as long-term projects. Zero chance WCC gets three bids next year; 2 bids 50/50 at best. Muddle through, hope for surprises. Double down of 2018 and 2019 prospects. As disappointing as this is for fans, my empathy is directed at those players returning, Coach Few and his staff.

Evidently, "No Good Deed Goes Unpunished" is true. Two decades of success building an elite franchise busts through to the doorstep of a national championship (unlike the Tarheels, the Zags lack the returnees for a second chance). 500 wins in super quick time for Mark Few, a final four, national coach of the year, a developed core of returnees ready to step up their game, and what is their reward? Less, not more, enthusiasm from prospects and transfers. Truly don't believe the Zags deserved this. (Lest there be any misunderstanding, I thank departing players and respect their individual decisions.) However, the cumulative effect for next year's Zags is devastating. They need immediate help, and have no margin for injuries or illnesses.

What are the odds they can produce only a modest setback next year (i.e., Sweet 16)? Will that require a WCC tourney win for the automatic (and possibly only) bid? Will future Zags get another final four, a second chance at the NC? When could those things possibly occur? Within the Few era? Or will it leave him at the mountain top, but not to enter the promised land? Coach Few has built so well on what was begun when he was an assistant coach. Will it fall to Tommy and Donny to take the last step?

Anyone have a theory why prospects are so reluctant to join a good-to-excellent core for next season? Sure, some of them didn't foresee the openings which have occurred. But decommitments happen. Others saw the openings (some tailored for them) but rejected GU.

Can it possibly be that 37-2 and a national runner-up made the Zags LESS attractive? How? Why? And what can be learned? Sorry for the pessimistic tone, but even in retrospect, cannot find the explanation for this totally unexpected result of success.

sideshow06
04-24-2017, 09:13 AM
From the outside looking in (SMC fan here) a run to the national championship game is a pretty rare occurrence, even for great teams. You may not be going there next year (who knows - not sure any of you saw a national championship game coming this time last year), but your program is solid, it's sound, and you have a very good chance of returning to the Final Four very soon. It's always hard to be okay with any type of regression, but considering what you did this year it's almost inevitable. It hardly means you're headed for obscurity. Sure, the margin of error for us WCC schools is much smaller than the P5 schools, but you guys will get a lot of the benefit of the doubt. You probably make the tourney regardless, and although SMC is going to be tough - and you've lost the inside presence that gave Landale fits this year - you probably go in as preseason favorites. I agree with the person who posted "Fret not". You'll be fine... and likely better than fine.

Zags11
04-24-2017, 09:15 AM
Hey look one star thread! Why? Cuz a poster said he is nervous. We won't be as good next year. I'll gladly take bets right now from anyone. However, it is what it is. Lock and reload.

TexasZagFan
04-24-2017, 09:32 AM
Sadly, I agree with you. If there are any grad transfers or Euros that could provide immediate help, the fans and this board are not aware of them. Prospects are really thin among class of 2017's uncommitted players. None would provide immediate help, and very few worth considering as long-term projects. Zero chance WCC gets three bids next year; 2 bids 50/50 at best. Muddle through, hope for surprises. Double down of 2018 and 2019 prospects. As disappointing as this is for fans, my empathy is directed at those players returning, Coach Few and his staff.

Evidently, "No Good Deed Goes Unpunished" is true. Two decades of success building an elite franchise busts through to the doorstep of a national championship (unlike the Tarheels, the Zags lack the returnees for a second chance). 500 wins in super quick time for Mark Few, a final four, national coach of the year, a developed core of returnees ready to step up their game, and what is their reward? Less, not more, enthusiasm from prospects and transfers. Truly don't believe the Zags deserved this. (Lest there be any misunderstanding, I thank departing players and respect their individual decisions.) However, the cumulative effect for next year's Zags is devastating. They need immediate help, and have no margin for injuries or illnesses.

What are the odds they can produce only a modest setback next year (i.e., Sweet 16)? Will that require a WCC tourney win for the automatic (and possibly only) bid? Will future Zags get another final four, a second chance at the NC? When could those things possibly occur? Within the Few era? Or will it leave him at the mountain top, but not to enter the promised land? Coach Few has built so well on what was begun when he was an assistant coach. Will it fall to Tommy and Donny to take the last step?

Anyone have a theory why prospects are so reluctant to join a good-to-excellent core for next season? Sure, some of them didn't foresee the openings which have occurred. But decommitments happen. Others saw the openings (some tailored for them) but rejected GU.

Can it possibly be that 37-2 and a national runner-up made the Zags LESS attractive? How? Why? And what can be learned? Sorry for the pessimistic tone, but even in retrospect, cannot find the explanation for this totally unexpected result of success.

Silly me, I thought the trip to the Final Four was the "promised land". lol

From my perch, 2000 miles from Zagland, happily ensconced in North Texas and the bluebonnets are still in bloom, here's my look at next year based on our returnees:

1. I think J3 will get enough of a guarantee that at least one NBA club will sign him to one of those new-fangled "two-way" contracts, with a two year guarantee of $250k per year, similar to what Kyle got with the Rockets. At this point, he's gone.

2. There will be no liabilities at the FT stripe for the Zags next year. Teams won't be able to play Hack-a-Shem, or Hack-a-Jonathan against us.

3. Our returnees (Josh, Silas, and Tillie) will be augmented by Norvell, Jeremy, Kispert, Rui, Larsen, and Wade. We won't be as big or deep up front, but Tillie and Larsen should be a good tandem at the 4/5. They can't get in foul trouble. We're solid at the 1-3, thin at the 4/5...for now.

4. One, if not two, graduate transfers will leap at the chance to play for a team that made it to the championship game last year. Don't know of any names, but I'm thinking of Power 5 players that haven't seen much in the way of postseason play.

Last year was an embarrassment of riches, the likes of which were unique to our history, at least for the moment. I still think our best days lay ahead of us.

5. A WAG for the future, say 4-5 years from now: I remain convinced that College Football will reorganize into 4-16 team conferences, in order to set up a perfect playoff system, and capture billions in TV money. If you're team #65 - ?, what's your next play? For many schools, they will de-emphasize football and put those resources into basketball. Why not have a superconference, i.e. a West Coast version of the Big East, with only the Pac-12 (Pac-16) remaining as the real competition?

Big East is currently getting $40-$50 million a year from TV, no doubt ESPN overpaid. If a "Big West" was properly configured, who's to say you can't get $3 million a year per team?

Repeat after me: the best is yet to come, the best is yet to come...

Alum08
04-24-2017, 09:35 AM
Hey look one star thread! Why? Cuz a poster said he is nervous. We won't be as good next year. I'll gladly take bets right now from anyone. However, it is what it is. Lock and reload.

I would classify the doom and gloom in the OP as a bit beyond "nervous." A lot of people aren't going to buy into the argument since the exact same premonitions were made in 2015 after we lost Pangos, Bell, Wesley, and Karno. Ditto for 2013 (Olynyk and Harris). When you hear the same story every 2-3 years it gets old and redundant.

Also, take a look at the dates in previous years when we've landed some of our biggest transfers. Always post-April. J3 was May 30th. Wesley, May 18th. NWG, May 3rd. Wiltjer, July 19th.

We have two startable newcomers on the wing. Melson and Perkins will play for all-conference honors. Tillie is potentially the best big man in the WCC. J3 is almost certainly returning and will be a favorite for conference POY. We have a question at the backup 5 position but from the rumors about Larsen we shouldn't be wanting. Our team is healthy. We have open spots to fill out our depth. We have brand new facilities and our OOC schedule next year could be the best in the country.

I don't see the fuss.

cbbfanatic
04-24-2017, 09:36 AM
Finishing third (essentially last) in the WCC

great line

anyway, gonzaga's second team (from last year) would still win the WCC. zags will win it again, and if not, my guess is they have enough wins/few enough losses to be resting comfortably on selection sunday. the bubble is baaaaaaad these days --- gonzaga is a cultural collapse away from it, not a few good players leaving quickly.

think about it this way, even if GU loses all of its top tier OOC games (probably 2 to 3 of these), splits w/ SMC/BYU and only loses another game or two in ooc/league, that's still easily a 20 win season, and probably puts them on that 8/9 line. i feel like they can overachieve that. if there's one thing GU is great at, it's beating mediocre and poor teams with extremely high consistency. continue to avoid losing to those guys, and the streak is intact. these days, you miss the tournament by losing to bad teams. gonzaga doesnt lose to bad teams

they might not be seeded for a deep run, but i'd be absolutely shocked if gonzaga didnt make the field easily

Sarenyon
04-24-2017, 09:57 AM
think about it this way, even if GU loses all of its top tier OOC games (probably 2 to 3 of these), splits w/ SMC/BYU and only loses another game or two in ooc/league, that's still easily a 20 win season, and probably puts them on that 8/9 line. i feel like they can overachieve that. if there's one thing GU is great at, it's beating mediocre and poor teams with extremely high consistency. continue to avoid losing to those guys, and the streak is intact. these days, you miss the tournament by losing to bad teams. gonzaga doesn't lose to bad teams

You essentially summed up the 15-16 team, except they were an 11 seed, and most pundits believed they needed the auto bid to get in, thank the Lord we did. I think we are fine next year, but depending on how a particular season plays out, the margins can be awful thin.

MontanaCoyote
04-24-2017, 10:02 AM
Patience, Please.

Probably easier for us Dinosaurs who had to wait two months for that cereal box top prize we sent away for to arrive.

Still! it will all work out, they'll be at least one surprise, and we will have a mighty fine team.
PS. I know because several posters told me so when I posted this kind boring post before, that it's fun to look forward, guess, project, opine, etc. so go for it. I actually do read 'um myself.

So, OK. Do it. Just don't worry. It'll be just fine!

thespywhozaggedme
04-24-2017, 11:09 AM
JWIII, Tillie, Perk, Wade, Melson, Norvell, Larsen, Kispert, Rui and JJ is still the best roster in the WCC. And that's not even including grad transfers, euros, or new recruits.

zaguarxj
04-24-2017, 11:09 AM
I think whistling past graveyards is a good thing to do, because whistling makes me happy and I like being happy.

billyberu
04-24-2017, 11:21 AM
I would classify the doom and gloom in the OP as a bit beyond "nervous." A lot of people aren't going to buy into the argument since the exact same premonitions were made in 2015 after we lost Pangos, Bell, Wesley, and Karno. Ditto for 2013 (Olynyk and Harris). When you hear the same story every 2-3 years it gets old and redundant.

Also, take a look at the dates in previous years when we've landed some of our biggest transfers. Always post-April. J3 was May 30th. Wesley, May 18th. NWG, May 3rd. Wiltjer, July 19th.

We have two startable newcomers on the wing. Melson and Perkins will play for all-conference honors. Tillie is potentially the best big man in the WCC. J3 is almost certainly returning and will be a favorite for conference POY. We have a question at the backup 5 position but from the rumors about Larsen we shouldn't be wanting. Our team is healthy. We have open spots to fill out our depth. We have brand new facilities and our OOC schedule next year could be the best in the country.

I don't see the fuss.
So much this.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

maynard g krebs
04-24-2017, 12:53 PM
Sadly, I agree with you. If there are any grad transfers or Euros that could provide immediate help, the fans and this board are not aware of them. Prospects are really thin among class of 2017's uncommitted players. None would provide immediate help, and very few worth considering as long-term projects. Zero chance WCC gets three bids next year; 2 bids 50/50 at best. Muddle through, hope for surprises. Double down of 2018 and 2019 prospects. As disappointing as this is for fans, my empathy is directed at those players returning, Coach Few and his staff.

Evidently, "No Good Deed Goes Unpunished" is true. Two decades of success building an elite franchise busts through to the doorstep of a national championship (unlike the Tarheels, the Zags lack the returnees for a second chance). 500 wins in super quick time for Mark Few, a final four, national coach of the year, a developed core of returnees ready to step up their game, and what is their reward? Less, not more, enthusiasm from prospects and transfers. Truly don't believe the Zags deserved this. (Lest there be any misunderstanding, I thank departing players and respect their individual decisions.) However, the cumulative effect for next year's Zags is devastating. They need immediate help, and have no margin for injuries or illnesses.

What are the odds they can produce only a modest setback next year (i.e., Sweet 16)? Will that require a WCC tourney win for the automatic (and possibly only) bid? Will future Zags get another final four, a second chance at the NC? When could those things possibly occur? Within the Few era? Or will it leave him at the mountain top, but not to enter the promised land? Coach Few has built so well on what was begun when he was an assistant coach. Will it fall to Tommy and Donny to take the last step?

Anyone have a theory why prospects are so reluctant to join a good-to-excellent core for next season? Sure, some of them didn't foresee the openings which have occurred. But decommitments happen. Others saw the openings (some tailored for them) but rejected GU.

Can it possibly be that 37-2 and a national runner-up made the Zags LESS attractive? How? Why? And what can be learned? Sorry for the pessimistic tone, but even in retrospect, cannot find the explanation for this totally unexpected result of success.

When I'm feeling down, I listen to Tom Waits.

"But you know, over at "Chubb's Pool and Snooker"
Well, it was a nickel after two
And in the cobalt steel blue dream smoke
Why, it was the radio that groaned out the hit parade
And the chalk squeaked and the floorboards creaked
And an Olympia sign winked through a torn yellow shade
Old Jack Chance himself leaning up against a Wurlitzer
Why, he was eyeballing out a five ball combination shot
Impossible you say? Hard to believe?
Perhaps out of the realm of possibility?
Naaaaah

Cause he be stretching out long tawny fingers
Out across a cool green felt
He got a full table rail shot that's no sweat
And I leaned up against my banister
I wandered over to the Wurlitzer and I punched A2
I was looking for maybe "Wine Wine Wine" by the
Or maybe a little something called "High Blood Pressure"
By George (Crying in the Streets) Perkins
Cause that's life, that's what all the people say
You're riding high in April, you're seriously shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune
When I'm standing underneath a buttery moon
That's all melted off to one side
Parkay".

It's gonna be a good team. Might be more fun to watch than the last one (depending on your preferences in style), even if it doesn't go quite as far. And it's just basketball. Fun is all it's supposed to be. Your choice.

TravelinZag
04-26-2017, 04:57 PM
Thanks, Maynard, for the time, effort and imagination you put into breaking my doldrums. I genuinely appreciate it.

Reborn
04-27-2017, 07:42 AM
Wow! This is really a great thread. I really enjoyed reading it and seeing the different points of view. To me this is a typical thread in this forum. There are ALWAYS Zag doubters in this forum. ALWAYS. I believe that for this group of fans that this year may have been their most difficult because there really wasn't anything to ##### about. So now they are "loaded" and "cocked to fire" all their negative thoughts. I'm still experiencing the glow from what this years team accomplished. Wow!!! I remain so happy and so excited about GU basketball. When u look at this thread, there are only a few posters who really are negative. So don't let the few ruin the vision of those of us who are believers in Zag basketball and believers in Mark Few. If you look at what Mark Few, Tommy and his staff have done over the years, how could YOU think that next year will be a complete failure.

What most of you missed about the cupboard being "empty" in GoZags' post is that he was being sinister and poking fun at the doubters. He wasn't serious. The cupboard is certainly not empty. To think so would only show how much you don't understand about the players and about Few and his staff. Let's start with the bench for this years team. IMO it was the best bench in all of DI basketball. And 2 of the 3 will be back and will be able to show how talented they really are. Imo Tillie was a "stud" this year and may have been the toughest Zag. If he wasn't the toughest than either Melson or J Williams III were. Don't worry about defense, people. These guys CAN play D. The thing about these guys is that we really don't know how good they can be. At this time last year I never thought the Zags would turn out to be as great as they were, nor did i think that NWG or Karnowski would be as good as they were. So let's not pretend that we know a lot about next years team because really we don't. What I do know is that they have great coaches and these coaches will build a very good team, just like they've always done.

My prediction is that the Zags will bring in a really good graduate transfer. Someone equal to Mathews. I'm hoping he's a post player. I believe Few will also sign a player who is willing to come in off the bench to play the 3. Maybe that player will be Kispert. Or maybe it's Rui. Or maybe Rui will be the back up for the post players. If you are in the group of fans who don't think that Perkins, Norvell, Wade, Melson, Rui, Tillie and Williams are not very good players than I have to admit that I'm beginning to doubt your basketball knowledge and or ability to evaluate talent. How can we as fans overlook what Tillie, Melson, Perkins and Williams did for the team this year? Come on man!!!! the cupboard is NOT empty. And we have the coaches who will turn this into one more very good, and maybe great team. The returning players have played together a lot, and they got plenty of playing time on the floor this year because they were that good. So don't worry about team chemistry. These guys ALREADY know how to play together and how to play Zag basketball.

Go Zags! And yes the best is yet to come!!!

TexasZagFan
04-27-2017, 08:27 AM
If you are in the group of fans who don't think that Perkins, Norvell, Wade, Melson, Rui, Tillie and Williams are not very good players than I have to admit that I'm beginning to doubt your basketball knowledge and or ability to evaluate talent.

Took you long enough to recognize the obvious... :lmao:

zag67
04-27-2017, 01:11 PM
Reborn, I agree with everything that you have said. I also believe that Larsen and Jones should be mentioned in the chemistry and defensive knowledge. Jones played against them all year and Larsen watched. I do hope that Larsen is well and able to contribute at the beginning of the year. I also hope that we can find one big to contribute.

Zags_Fanatic
04-27-2017, 01:15 PM
If you are in the group of fans who don't think that Perkins, Norvell, Wade, Melson, Rui, Tillie and Williams are not very good players than I have to admit that I'm beginning to doubt your basketball knowledge and or ability to evaluate talent.

That is one brutal double-negative. Took me a second to realize you didn't mean to trash the whole roster.

BULLDOG#1
04-27-2017, 01:17 PM
Oh how we have been spoiled.

With what we have today, next season's team will undoubtedly compete for the WCC title. Is the streak in jeopardy? Definitely... but it sure will be fun to see how far some of the young guns can take the team. We know what we have in Perkins and Melson, but the wildcards of Rui, Tillie, Larson, and Norvell will set the stage. I have great confidence in Few and his ability to bring along young talent.

If I were to guess, I'd say JWIII comes back and the boys pull it together and win the WCC and make the dance. Rui and Tillie could be breakout players.

TravelinZag
04-27-2017, 08:57 PM
Wait a second. Only two players over 6'9", one may need additional surgery, the other talented but can't play in the paint. No post player. And this will be "fine"? Some fancy stuff being smoked.

maynard g krebs
04-27-2017, 09:44 PM
Wait a second. Only two players over 6'9", one may need additional surgery, the other talented but can't play in the paint. No post player. And this will be "fine"? Some fancy stuff being smoked.

I'd guess JW3 comes back, and confused about which big "may need add'l surgery".

Even so, in the past the Zags have done ok with both Pendo and Barham playing minutes at the 4, even Dranginis some year before last when there were only 2 bigs in the rotation. Rui and Kispert are both more capable of playing there than those guys if need be.

This team won't have the post presence but will be bigger and more talented on the wings. I'm in the "it will be fine" camp. More than fine. I expect a fun and exciting season.

MDABE80
04-28-2017, 12:50 AM
We're going to have a good team just not another historical FF team. Too many losses to expect that level of accomplishment. Most think all of our kids are very skillful. Just not all are/were skillful PG's ...nothing even close to Nigel. We'll work through that. I suspect more help is coming. Meanwhile, while we haven't seen a whiff of next year's schedule, I suspect the team will have some very difficult teams to beat.
Young team, Few generally develops this team in OOC and come WCC time, the team continues to gel. No reason to think otherwise this year.

ZagaZags
04-28-2017, 03:25 AM
We're going to have a good team just not another historical FF team. Too many losses to expect that level of accomplishment. Most think all of our kids are very skillful. Just not all are/were skillful PG's ...nothing even close to Nigel. We'll work through that. I suspect more help is coming. Meanwhile, while we haven't seen a whiff of next year's schedule, I suspect the team will have some very difficult teams to beat.
Young team, Few generally develops this team in OOC and come WCC time, the team continues to gel. No reason to think otherwise this year.

Nigel has set the bar for GU. Like it or not, this is what the rest of the guards will be compared to. Tough act to follow.

zag67
04-28-2017, 05:27 AM
I agree that Nigel and Shim set the bar and this team will not have them. But I trust Few and staff will create a different team chemistry. We will have to be faster and run the floor more. But I think this team has the speed to be able to do this. I just think they are going to be fun to watch and grow for following years. Yes we are going to be young. Yes we are going to make tons of mistakes. But we are also going to do some great plays that we will all be talking about.
I am just going to enjoy the journey to the March tournament. Yes I believe we will be there. And then look forward to years to come.

willandi
04-28-2017, 05:50 AM
We're going to have a good team just not another historical FF team. Too many losses to expect that level of accomplishment. Most think all of our kids are very skillful. Just not all are/were skillful PG's ...nothing even close to Nigel. We'll work through that. I suspect more help is coming. Meanwhile, while we haven't seen a whiff of next year's schedule, I suspect the team will have some very difficult teams to beat.
Young team, Few generally develops this team in OOC and come WCC time, the team continues to gel. No reason to think otherwise this year.

:horse::horse::horse:

Beat that dead horse!

btzag
04-28-2017, 06:15 AM
I'm going to be worried until we hear of more bigs eligible to play next year. And that's even if jwill3 comes back. We have now 8 players at guard/wing if you include jj so we are set there. Shoot we don't even have walk-on bigs but we've got a couple walk on guards!

BULLDOG#1
04-28-2017, 10:09 AM
I'm going to be worried until we hear of more bigs eligible to play next year. And that's even if jwill3 comes back. We have now 8 players at guard/wing if you include jj so we are set there. Shoot we don't even have walk-on bigs but we've got a couple walk on guards!

If JWIII comes back, combined with Tillie, Larson, and Rui -- GU arguably will have the best front court in the WCC (especially if Mica goes pro). Sure, it would be nice if we got another quality big as a transfer, but I wouldn't worry about the bigs we currently have eligible. Rui could have a breakout year (Elias 2.0). Providing he comes back, JWIII will likely be first team WCC. Tillie and Rui have that kind of upside too, but but they'd have to improve a lot (which I see as possible). Larson is a question mark at this point.

It will be very interesting to see how the young talent comes together... I envision GU battling BYU for the WCC championship. Win or lose the WCC title, I expect GU to shock a few teams in the OOC sched and get into the dance.

amaronizag
04-28-2017, 10:49 AM
Couple of years ago we were really thin. Few said they had to use staff in practice we were so thin. He said he would never make that mistake again. IF J3 comes back (I think he will) AND Larsen heals fine and has no recurring injuries, AND everybody else stays healthy, we would be marginal, but OK. I can't imagine any scenario where we don't add another center to the roster for next year and hopefully a PF as well. Just too thin without those additions.

btzag
04-28-2017, 11:05 AM
If JWIII comes back, combined with Tillie, Larson, and Rui -- GU arguably will have the best front court in the WCC (especially if Mica goes pro). Sure, it would be nice if we got another quality big as a transfer, but I wouldn't worry about the bigs we currently have eligible. Rui could have a breakout year (Elias 2.0). Providing he comes back, JWIII will likely be first team WCC. Tillie and Rui have that kind of upside too, but but they'd have to improve a lot (which I see as possible). Larson is a question mark at this point.

It will be very interesting to see how the young talent comes together... I envision GU battling BYU for the WCC championship. Win or lose the WCC title, I expect GU to shock a few teams in the OOC sched and get into the dance.

Rui is not a "big" despite his length. As I mentioned in another thread, he struggled learning his natural wing position last year let alone trying to learn to be a post player in the GU offense. Very similar to the Harris situation...Harris was a 4 without a doubt and the experiments with him at the 3 were so awful they were abandoned. This is also why Harris was not an NBA guy, he was basically an undersized 4.

Mantua
04-28-2017, 02:46 PM
The coaches must have had an idea about the exodus of so much skill and height. I have a lot of confidence in the skill of the remaining players and Kispert and Wade. I'm just praying that the coaches have some tall guys lurking somewhere behind the curtain.

Idahozag10
04-29-2017, 10:32 PM
since J3 didn't get invited to the combine, what does that mean for GU?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

MontanaCoyote
04-30-2017, 08:43 AM
I'm maybe more than a little confused? I thought both the NBA and college were moving away from needing/wanting
true "post players," but our need for one, "a big," keeps popping up on this and the Possible Grad Transfer thread, someone like Karno or Collins to fill up the middle.

What's going on here?

thespywhozaggedme
04-30-2017, 09:08 AM
I'm maybe more than a little confused? I thought both the NBA and college were moving away from needing/wanting
true "post players," but our need for one, "a big," keeps popping up on this and the Possible Grad Transfer thread, someone like Karno or Collins to fill up the middle.

What's going on here?

I dunno if that's always the case. The Jazz and Clips are going to a game 7 and they both have true old school centers in Gobert and Jordan and ZC is now projected to go top 10. So it seems that if there's a true good center, he still has value.

JPtheBeasta
04-30-2017, 09:25 AM
I'm maybe more than a little confused? I thought both the NBA and college were moving away from needing/wanting
true "post players," but our need for one, "a big," keeps popping up on this and the Possible Grad Transfer thread, someone like Karno or Collins to fill up the middle.

What's going on here?

There are a couple of thing to me that are concerning, albeit not to the level that the OP takes it to:
1) Few's offense in the past has been predicated on inside-out play, with a skilled big as the axis/fulcrum/focus of the offense that the other action works around
2) There are two really good big men in conference in the persons of Mika and Landale. Lack of the depth in the post could make the next season very difficult.

I am of the opinion that we do need big men. To me it is somewhat equivalent to having a bunch of great position players in football but no offensive line. The NBA still calls in its big men to rebound and clog the line. The power forward may be more of a stretch 4, but it seems to me that every team still has legitimate centers who, although maybe not called upon to score with their back to the basket, are still needed for defense and rebounding.

I would like at least one more big man for depth who can play defense and rebound. I am actually looking forward to a different style of play this year that focuses on the depth we have at the guard and small forward position. I don't think it will be dire straits, but having Larsen as our only true center and JW3 leaving to the NBA would present a tremendous challenge, in my opinion. Tillie seems like a great 4. It is important for me to have JW3 stick around because I think he could be a serviceable 5 against smaller teams. We got away with it when Domas was here because he was an absolute stud and also found a way to stay in games without getting into foul trouble, for the most part- but I think even Domas would have had a hard time defending the length of Landale.

That's my take, anyhow.

LongIslandZagFan
04-30-2017, 11:00 AM
I'm maybe more than a little confused? I thought both the NBA and college were moving away from needing/wanting
true "post players," but our need for one, "a big," keeps popping up on this and the Possible Grad Transfer thread, someone like Karno or Collins to fill up the middle.

What's going on here?

The NBA is moving away... not college. College will always have true centers. Collins was never in the mold of a true 5 man. He is exactly what the NBA uses today... big tall stretch 4s that can hit from outside. Could you imagine Shaq shooting 3s?

Idahozag10
04-30-2017, 09:13 PM
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170501/1cccad01d1a3bd2f86a46df575227d99.png

hope J3 saw this...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

TravelinZag
05-01-2017, 12:34 AM
There are a couple of thing to me that are concerning, albeit not to the level that the OP takes it to:
1) Few's offense in the past has been predicated on inside-out play, with a skilled big as the axis/fulcrum/focus of the offense that the other action works around
2) There are two really good big men in conference in the persons of Mika and Landale. Lack of the depth in the post could make the next season very difficult.

I am of the opinion that we do need big men. To me it is somewhat equivalent to having a bunch of great position players in football but no offensive line. The NBA still calls in its big men to rebound and clog the line. The power forward may be more of a stretch 4, but it seems to me that every team still has legitimate centers who, although maybe not called upon to score with their back to the basket, are still needed for defense and rebounding.

I would like at least one more big man for depth who can play defense and rebound.

Great points; completely agree.

Zagger
05-01-2017, 02:47 AM
Per our bigs this past season one of the things I found exciting about Williams, Collins and Tillie were all of their blocked shots. I feel there's a trade off between blocking the lane like a Mt K and being able to swat shots put up by someone in the lane. It was nice to have both lane blocking and blocked shots by GU big guys. GU D was key to making the FF. Will GU D be as good in 2017-18 ....... we'll see.

TexasZagFan
05-01-2017, 05:25 AM
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170501/1cccad01d1a3bd2f86a46df575227d99.png

hope J3 saw this...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

When I saw the list over the weekend, I had the same thoughts. I thought the powers that be made a mistake on Shem, though. Probably opens up the door for Shem and his agent to pursue a contract in Europe. I'm biased, but I thought he'd be a good fit for a team like Golden State, able to back up Draymond for 12-15 minutes a game.

Birddog
05-01-2017, 05:46 AM
When I saw the list over the weekend, I had the same thoughts. I thought the powers that be made a mistake on Shem, though. Probably opens up the door for Shem and his agent to pursue a contract in Europe. I'm biased, but I thought he'd be a good fit for a team like Golden State, able to back up Draymond for 12-15 minutes a game.

His agent will no doubt have him lined up for private workouts with as many teams as possible like Wiltjer did last year. If you remember, Kyle was hop scotching all over the country for workouts and interviews.

TexasZagFan
05-01-2017, 06:07 AM
His agent will no doubt have him lined up for private workouts with as many teams as possible like Wiltjer did last year. If you remember, Kyle was hop scotching all over the country for workouts and interviews.

Agreed, Shem is a unique talent, and his passing skills are better than most big men currently in the NBA. He'll also come cheap, by NBA standards.

O/T, I hope I'm still alive when the current TV agreements expire in the mid 2020's. ESPN won't be around to overpay for the TV rights like they did last time. NBA has two major problems lurking IMO: one, the competitive imbalance, where only a handful of big market teams can compete for the title; two, the "resting" of the biggest name stars, usually during road games where fans are charged premium prices for those games. I heard a good comment the other day: are players like Mike Conley enough of a draw to justify paying them $400K per game?

The first is serious, the second is an annoyance. I see the effect in Dallas, where despite their continued sell-out streak, there are thousands of empty seats during their home games. It will only get worse when Nowitzki retires. Dirk really deserves credit, his was one of very few championship teams where he was the only superstar/Hall of Famer. Sure, they had Kidd, but Jason was near the end of his career. Dirk was also surrounded by some very good players, and caught lightning during the playoffs.

Cuban's just about used up the capital from that title, as evidenced by the woes in actual attendance this year, culminating in the Tony Romo stunt in the last home game.

BD, one last question: what happened to Domas' playing time at the end of the season, and in the playoffs? Did he get any playing time?

zagfan24
05-01-2017, 08:11 AM
one, the competitive imbalance, where only a handful of big market teams can compete for the title

Agree with much of what you wrote, but this isn't a problem IMO. The best teams are in San Antonio, Cleveland, and Oakland...2/3 are relatively small markets. The heyday of the NBA involved a relatively small group of teams competing for titles. In fact, the only major difference between the late 80's/early 90's and now is that the former WAS dominated by Chicago, LA, Boston, and Philly.

As it relates to the Zags, I think that the evolution of the NBA will actually work out fairly well as it pertains to Mark Few and GU. Dominating athleticism has taken a back seat to superb outside shooting, quick passing, great intellect, and strong defense. Just my 2 cents.

Mojo13
05-01-2017, 08:39 AM
Some here may remember that Rob Sacre was not invited to the combine but was still drafted.

There are a hugely disproportionate number of underclassman declaring this year (because of the 60 new NBA jobs this year) and because the underclassmen are more of an unknown the NBA teams used the vast majority of the combine invites on underclassmen.
It helps the NBA teams assess them properly and also give the underclassmen feedback to decide to go back to the NCAA or stay in the draft.

There are very few seniors invited to the draft combine (lowest amount in history) for a few reasons. 1) they is no choice for them to make, no feedback to receive to decide on - they are out of school regardless. 2) they are a more known commodity. More tape on them, more scouting. NBA teams much better know who they are. 3) the NBA drafts on potential and that typically resides in underclassmen relative to seniors.

Karno still has a shot to get drafted. He can also easily go undrafted and still get a contract. Loads of undrafted guys will get contracts this year with the NBA roster expansion.

Lot's still to happen here.

MontanaCoyote
05-01-2017, 08:50 AM
Bird dog and TXZag; I'm hoping a NBA team gives Shem a shot, maybe along the lines of Wiltjer. But if that doesn't happen, please tell me how you think Shem will do in Europe. In short, can he make some good bucks in that market?

cbbfanatic
05-01-2017, 09:24 AM
Agree with much of what you wrote, but this isn't a problem IMO. The best teams are in San Antonio, Cleveland, and Oakland...2/3 are relatively small markets. The heyday of the NBA involved a relatively small group of teams competing for titles. In fact, the only major difference between the late 80's/early 90's and now is that the former WAS dominated by Chicago, LA, Boston, and Philly.

As it relates to the Zags, I think that the evolution of the NBA will actually work out fairly well as it pertains to Mark Few and GU. Dominating athleticism has taken a back seat to superb outside shooting, quick passing, great intellect, and strong defense. Just my 2 cents.

i dont think its a huge problem either, as it relates to the casual fan (which i think all sports leagues really want/need).

it's much easier to digest and casually follow a league when the same few teams are dominantly good most years. a league with a bunch of teams between 40% & 60% winning pct is just... the MLB. i really dont think parity sells to the masses. it sounds nice, and hardcore fans of less successful teams need to believe in it, but i dont think it's great for marketing to the people who just want to tune in to see entertaining action. i think the masses want the jordan bulls, the 80/90s 49ers, duke/kentucky/unc/kansas, alabama football, etc

the sixers can play the knicks on local tv...

TexasZagFan
05-01-2017, 09:56 AM
i dont think its a huge problem either, as it relates to the casual fan (which i think all sports leagues really want/need).

it's much easier to digest and casually follow a league when the same few teams are dominantly good most years. a league with a bunch of teams between 40% & 60% winning pct is just... the MLB. i really dont think parity sells to the masses. it sounds nice, and hardcore fans of less successful teams need to believe in it, but i dont think it's great for marketing to the people who just want to tune in to see entertaining action. i think the masses want the jordan bulls, the 80/90s 49ers, duke/kentucky/unc/kansas, alabama football, etc

the sixers can play the knicks on local tv...

Parity's been great for the coffers of the NFL. However, IMO it helped create fantasy football, where the typical fan places emphasis on individual players vs their home team.

A bit related, but I now more closely follow the progress of Zags playing in the NBA, vs emphasizing the hometown Mavericks. That was easy, considering I've grown weary of Mark Cuban's madcap forays as the unofficial GM of the team. Kelly Olynyk would be a contributing member of the Mavericks now, having learned the game for a few years from none other than Dirk Nowitzki.

btzag
05-01-2017, 11:00 AM
The NBA is moving away... not college. College will always have true centers. Collins was never in the mold of a true 5 man. He is exactly what the NBA uses today... big tall stretch 4s that can hit from outside. Could you imagine Shaq shooting 3s?

It was not a coincidence that the two teams contesting the national championship also had maybe the two best 'big' rotations in the country.

Mojo13
05-01-2017, 11:30 AM
Bird dog and TXZag; I'm hoping a NBA team gives Shem a shot, maybe along the lines of Wiltjer. But if that doesn't happen, please tell me how you think Shem will do in Europe. In short, can he make some good bucks in that market?

Well it depends what you think "good bucks" is.

The top budgeted European teams still spend a fraction what NBA teams do. (think a $10-$20M budget vs $100-120MM in the NBA). The top players in Europe - I mean star players on the top Euroleague teams can make a few million a year, (net of taxes!), with living expenses paid as well. Usually these guys are veteran, NBA caliber players - Nando De Colo, Rudy Fernandez, Nenad Krstic, Juan Carlos Navarro etc.
https://www.talkbasket.net/salaries (a couple years old)

Shem has a long way to got to get to those levels. He seems like he could play on a Euroleague team, but maybe not a star player.
He at least should play on a EuroCup level team or a top team in a strong domestic league.

The European game is even more reliant on a high IQ, good passing bigman. Usually they come with strong outside shooting though (unlike
Shem). Or else Euro bigmen need to be a super athletic, speedy, rim rocking bigman - but usually they are a little undersized (or else they would be in the NBA).

Shem will have a big size advantage in Europe and will have a role. He will be a big match up problem, but will also have trouble guarding some of the stretch bigmen and smaller, faster athletic bigmen.

Having a Euro passport is a big advantage to him as he will not count as an import, which will open up more prospects and better pay for him. He might have to start on a lesser team and prove himself before he lands a big club contract. Most NCAA guys go this path - it is very rare to go directly from the NCAA to Euroleague. Maybe he wants a year at home to play of a top Polish club before moving up.

For perspective - Pangos landed a contract with Zalgiris, the biggest club in Lithuania, but smallest budgeted team in the Euroleague that pays him a few hundred thousand a year (Net of taxes) and living expenses. He will likely make more as he works his way up the system (better teams, bigger budgets).

At the very least I'd expect Shem to be making a few hundred thousand (net) within a couple years, and if he really turns out well having the opportunity for over $1M a year down the road. I doubt he gets to that Euro "star" level of multiple millions a year (net), but I am no expert here.

MontanaCoyote
05-01-2017, 11:43 AM
Well it depends what you think "good bucks" is.

The top budgeted European teams still spend a fraction what NBA teams do. (think a $10-$20M budget vs $100-120MM in the NBA). The top players in Europe - I mean star players on the top Euroleague teams can make a few million a year, (net of taxes!), with living expenses paid as well. Usually these guys are veteran, NBA caliber players - Nando De Colo, Rudy Fernandez, Nenad Krstic, Juan Carlos Navarro etc.
https://www.talkbasket.net/salaries (a couple years old)

Shem has a long way to got to get to those levels. He seems like he could play on a Euroleague team, but maybe not a star player.
He at least should play on a EuroCup level team or a top team in a strong domestic league.

The European game is even more reliant on a high IQ, good passing bigman. Usually they come with strong outside shooting though (unlike
Shem). Or else Euro bigmen need to be a super athletic, speedy, rim rocking bigman - but usually they are a little undersized (or else they would be in the NBA).

Shem will have a big size advantage in Europe and will have a role. He will be a big match up problem, but will also have trouble guarding some of the stretch bigmen and smaller, faster athletic bigmen.

Having a Euro passport is a big advantage to him as he will not count as an import, which will open up more prospects and better pay for him. He might have to start on a lesser team and prove himself before he lands a big club contract. Most NCAA guys go this path - it is very rare to go directly from the NCAA to Euroleague. Maybe he wants a year at home to play of a top Polish club before moving up.

For perspective - Pangos landed a contract with Zalgiris, the biggest club in Lithuania, but smallest budgeted team in the Euroleague that pays him a few hundred thousand a year (Net of taxes) and living expenses. He will likely make more as he works his way up the system (better teams, bigger budgets).

At the very least I'd expect Shem to be making a few hundred thousand (net) within a couple years, and if he really turns out well having the opportunity for over $1M a year down the road. I doubt he gets to that Euro "star" level of multiple millions a year (net), but I am no expert here.

Thanks much, Mojo! I'm an unabashed Karno fan and I've just been worrying if he'll be alright. This helps a lot. I also think he has a nice future in other venues when he's done playing ball.

Mojo13
05-01-2017, 12:08 PM
If he stays healthy he should have a solid 10 year plus career in Europe (at least). His game is reliant on size, skill, strength, IQ....not speed, athleticism. Just gotta stay healthy.

It will be telling how his summer goes as he still has an honest shot at the NBA/D-League. But he may be ready to head home. I'd try to make as much money as possible as soon as possible if I was him (due to his health). I hope he doesn't waste a couple years in the D-league. All or nothing if I was him - a clear definitive contract in the NBA or avoid the NBA completely and head to Europe as soon as possible.

DixieZag
05-01-2017, 01:02 PM
Parity's been great for the coffers of the NFL. However, IMO it helped create fantasy football, where the typical fan places emphasis on individual players vs their home team.

A bit related, but I now more closely follow the progress of Zags playing in the NBA, vs emphasizing the hometown Mavericks. That was easy, considering I've grown weary of Mark Cuban's madcap forays as the unofficial GM of the team. Kelly Olynyk would be a contributing member of the Mavericks now, having learned the game for a few years from none other than Dirk Nowitzki.

The NFL's biggest angle is that it is the professional sport most easily gambled upon. Parity and point spreads make for a fairly stable and simple gambling environment. The NFL doesn't like to talk about it much, but there's a big reason that people know the "point spreads" of most games, and sports radio spends plenty of time with friendly "takes" based on that spread.

Frank Deford thought that gambling was the single biggest reason the NFL powered up past the other sports in the 80s-today.

MontanaCoyote
05-01-2017, 03:34 PM
If he stays healthy he should have a solid 10 year plus career in Europe (at least). His game is reliant on size, skill, strength, IQ....not speed, athleticism. Just gotta stay healthy.

It will be telling how his summer goes as he still has an honest shot at the NBA/D-League. But he may be ready to head home. I'd try to make as much money as possible as soon as possible if I was him (due to his health). I hope he doesn't waste a couple years in the D-league. All or nothing if I was him - a clear definitive contract in the NBA or avoid the NBA completely and head to Europe as soon as possible.

Thanks, again. I forget what interview it was, but in one of them I really got a feeling that he misses home, Poland and Polish food!

Gosh, he's had a great ride but he has been away for 5 years and left when he was just a "baby." Time will tell. I think he has some good people around him for support and council. Man, I'm pulling for him with all I've got!

Birddog
05-01-2017, 05:44 PM
Thanks, again. I forget what interview it was, but in one of them I really got a feeling that he misses home, Poland and Polish food!


An NBA contract would buy a lot of Pierogies.

TravelinZag
05-08-2017, 08:45 AM
1. Zags have only two players who 6'10" or taller, one of whom (despite talents) cannot defend the paint. In that same regard, no players weighing more than 230?

2. Post-season, GU went from no scholarships available to slots and scholarships abound as half the team departs, but no takers and few capable roll players to fill the voids. Prefer both an immediate bandaid, and a fresh recruit for the future. As we have seen, bigs take longer to develop, so recruit will need time, and Zags need a stopper now. Got all the guards and wings we need for now.

3. At least two players have persistent issues with injuries. Worst case, are we down to less than 10 returning players, some of whom need more development, and many have limited minutes in game situations with the roles they will need to fulfill and the players who will share the court with them.

4. Allowing several players to spend much of the summer playing with their national teams seems questionable this year. (Unless they'll get better development doing that, given not enough Zags on the campus for "playground" scrimmages.)

5. Why so many holes in schedule? Is the past season an exemplar of a "No good deed goes unpunished"? Would prefer one or two fewer games than any versus BPi/RPI lower than 200 (already have those in league play). Those are lose/lose propositions.

6. Given above, certainly don't expect a FF next year. However, a regression beyond the NCAA second weekend will destroy the ability to rebuild for another FF soon.

7. A result we couldn't quite hope for last year presages a significant decline next year? A crossroads: Zags have become elite, but not yet established at that level to withstand a crash.
Great team, but not yet Duke, Kansas, UCLA, Syracuse, Wisconsin, Michigan State, Kentucky -- all of which can rise after a disappointing season or two. That's the next level for GU. Hope the miracles we don't yet know about will appear.​ Don't need a long summer, fall and first five games to perpetuate these thoughts, much less posts like this. HELP! :confused::confused:

From great heights, the fall can really hurt. After the championship game, Zags don't need to "pick themselves up, dust themselves off" but its beginning to look like "start all over again". What the hell? The ride was great. Let's stay on, or (worst case) get back in line to go again!

Go Zags!

bartruff1
05-08-2017, 08:55 AM
Just say NO to drugs.... :)

DixieZag
05-08-2017, 09:00 AM
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/84/a4/ff/84a4ffa39c14f81b59846dd32b46717c.jpg

DixieZag
05-08-2017, 09:04 AM
And ...


However, a regression beyond the NCAA second weekend will destroy the ability to rebuild for another FF soon.

We got to the FF bc we took a big jump in the quality of recruits we brought in. We may have a lean recruiting year bc of unexpected holes, but the pattern of putting bodies into the NBA means at least as much to our recruiting ability as does persistent deep runs.

Zagdawg
05-08-2017, 09:04 AM
Is this the weekly "the Sky is falling" --chicken little thread?

gonzagafan62
05-08-2017, 09:06 AM
1. Nobody thought we'd go to Elite Eight in 2015, citing "Few32"

2. Nobody thought we'd go to sweet sixteen after losing to SMC the second time on verge of the "streak" being on life support

3. Did anyone here think we could get to the national championship game? I didn't, but if you did nobody else in America outside of zags fans thought we could.

The world will continue doubting few and Gonzaga just like they have since 1998.

And again, they'll prove you wrong.

Go zags

Zags_Fanatic
05-08-2017, 09:12 AM
In this decade only four schools have been to the second weekend in 4 consecutive seasons: Michigan State, Florida, Louisville and Wisconsin. It would be great to add GU to that list, but won't exactly destroy the program if we are stuck with Elite 8, Sweet 16, National Championship and getting booted in the 1st weekend.

There are real questions for this year's squad but this team should be in good shape for 2-3 years with what we have.

Remember, having multiple 7 footers on your roster feels like a given at Gonzaga but it is actually INCREDIBLY rare. Adjustments will be made with a smaller lineup but great teams have been playing that way for year.

thespywhozaggedme
05-08-2017, 09:13 AM
1. Zags have only two players who 6'10" or taller, one of whom (despite talents) cannot defend the paint. In that same regard, no players weighing more than 230?

2. Post-season, GU went from no scholarships available to slots and scholarships abound as half the team departs, but no takers and few capable roll players to fill the voids. Prefer both an immediate bandaid, and a fresh recruit for the future. As we have seen, bigs take longer to develop, so recruit will need time, and Zags need a stopper now. Got all the guards and wings we need for now.

3. At least two players have persistent issues with injuries. Worst case, are we down to less than 10 returning players, some of whom need more development, and many have limited minutes in game situations with the roles they will need to fulfill and the players who will share the court with them.

4. Allowing several players to spend much of the summer playing with their national teams seems questionable this year. (Unless they'll get better development doing that, given not enough Zags on the campus for "playground" scrimmages.)

5. Why so many holes in schedule? Is the past season an exemplar of a "No good deed goes unpunished"? Would prefer one or two fewer games than any versus BPi/RPI lower than 200 (already have those in league play). Those are lose/lose propositions.

6. Given above, certainly don't expect a FF next year. However, a regression beyond the NCAA second weekend will destroy the ability to rebuild for another FF soon.

7. A result we couldn't quite hope for last year presages a significant decline next year? A crossroads: Zags have become elite, but not yet established at that level to withstand a crash.
Great team, but not yet Duke, Kansas, UCLA, Syracuse, Wisconsin, Michigan State, Kentucky -- all of which can rise after a disappointing season or two. That's the next level for GU. Hope the miracles we don't yet know about will appear.​ Don't need a long summer, fall and first five games to perpetuate these thoughts, much less posts like this. HELP! :confused::confused:

From great heights, the fall can really hurt. After the championship game, Zags don't need to "pick themselves up, dust themselves off" but its beginning to look like "start all over again". What the hell? The ride was great. Let's stay on, or (worst case) get back in line to go again!

Go Zags!

Thanks Debbie

TexasZagFan
05-08-2017, 09:23 AM
1. Zags have only two players who 6'10" or taller, one of whom (despite talents) cannot defend the paint. In that same regard, no players weighing more than 230?

2. Post-season, GU went from no scholarships available to slots and scholarships abound as half the team departs, but no takers and few capable roll players to fill the voids. Prefer both an immediate bandaid, and a fresh recruit for the future. As we have seen, bigs take longer to develop, so recruit will need time, and Zags need a stopper now. Got all the guards and wings we need for now.

3. At least two players have persistent issues with injuries. Worst case, are we down to less than 10 returning players, some of whom need more development, and many have limited minutes in game situations with the roles they will need to fulfill and the players who will share the court with them.

4. Allowing several players to spend much of the summer playing with their national teams seems questionable this year. (Unless they'll get better development doing that, given not enough Zags on the campus for "playground" scrimmages.)

5. Why so many holes in schedule? Is the past season an exemplar of a "No good deed goes unpunished"? Would prefer one or two fewer games than any versus BPi/RPI lower than 200 (already have those in league play). Those are lose/lose propositions.

6. Given above, certainly don't expect a FF next year. However, a regression beyond the NCAA second weekend will destroy the ability to rebuild for another FF soon.

7. A result we couldn't quite hope for last year presages a significant decline next year? A crossroads: Zags have become elite, but not yet established at that level to withstand a crash.
Great team, but not yet Duke, Kansas, UCLA, Syracuse, Wisconsin, Michigan State, Kentucky -- all of which can rise after a disappointing season or two. That's the next level for GU. Hope the miracles we don't yet know about will appear.​ Don't need a long summer, fall and first five games to perpetuate these thoughts, much less posts like this. HELP! :confused::confused:

From great heights, the fall can really hurt. After the championship game, Zags don't need to "pick themselves up, dust themselves off" but its beginning to look like "start all over again". What the hell? The ride was great. Let's stay on, or (worst case) get back in line to go again!

Go Zags!

When all else fails...

https://img1.etsystatic.com/020/0/7206507/il_570xN.572341175_adss.jpg

IMHO, you're falling into a trap shared by "blue blood fans": too much focus on the destination, not enough on the journey.

Ok, so Mt. Karnowski, Jordan, and NWG have graduated, and Zach Collins is soon to be a lottery pick. Coming back next year are half of our 8 man rotation, with Rui and a couple of medical redshirts from last year.

Enjoy the journey, which hopefully for me (and my son) will start in July with a road trip to Spokane. Big D's mom is almost on board with signing him up for the youth camp. I just think it would be a fantastic experience for my son, who will be trying out for the JV teams next year. Without Zag basketball, trips like these (not to mention game trips) would never be pondered.

Hoopaholic
05-08-2017, 09:34 AM
When all else fails...

https://img1.etsystatic.com/020/0/7206507/il_570xN.572341175_adss.jpg

IMHO, you're falling into a trap shared by "blue blood fans": too much focus on the destination, not enough on the journey.

Ok, so Mt. Karnowski, Jordan, and NWG have graduated, and Zach Collins is soon to be a lottery pick. Coming back next year are half of our 8 man rotation, with Rui and a couple of medical redshirts from last year.

Enjoy the journey, which hopefully for me (and my son) will start in July with a road trip to Spokane. Big D's mom is almost on board with signing him up for the youth camp. I just think it would be a fantastic experience for my son, who will be trying out for the JV teams next year. Without Zag basketball, trips like these (not to mention game trips) would never be pondered.

THIS

Zagnificent
05-08-2017, 09:38 AM
Remember, even the Elite UNC team missed the tournament in 2010, after back to back final fours in 2008 and 2009.

maynard g krebs
05-08-2017, 09:58 AM
Travelin, this looks like deja vu all over again. You already did this thread. Asked and answered. I'd suggest going back and rereading some of the positive responses to the other thread. I for one am extremely confident that barring health issues next year's team will be very, very good.

Robzagnut
05-08-2017, 11:27 AM
>1. Zags have only two players who 6'10" or taller, one of whom (despite talents) cannot defend the paint. In that same regard, no players weighing more than 230?

At least 220 Division 1 teams would kill to have GU's 'predicament' of only having two excellent players above 6' 10", especially with the two players they have that are 6' 9". Remember the awesome Illinois team that didn't have a player above 6' 7"?


>2. Post-season, GU went from no scholarships available to slots and scholarships abound as half the team departs, but no takers and few capable roll players to fill the voids. Prefer both an immediate bandaid, and a fresh recruit for the future. As we have seen, bigs take longer to develop, so recruit will need time, and Zags need a stopper now. Got all the guards and wings we need for now.

Still early. If GU signs grad students and future pros you can expect them to be gone the next year. Goes with the territory. And guess what? It's going to happen again.


>3. At least two players have persistent issues with injuries. Worst case, are we down to less than 10 returning players, some of whom need more development, and many have limited minutes in game situations with the roles they will need to fulfill and the players who will share the court with them.

Persistent? I see healed or healing. If one gets injured again then you can use the word persistent.


>4. Allowing several players to spend much of the summer playing with their national teams seems questionable this year. (Unless they'll get better development doing that, given not enough Zags on the campus for "playground" scrimmages.)

Questionable? There's no greater honor than being asked to play for and playing for your national team. Goes with the territory of recruiting many national players. And how many national players would sign with GU in the future if GU did not allow them to play for their national teams? And guess what? It's going to happen again!


>5. Why so many holes in schedule? Is the past season an exemplar of a "No good deed goes unpunished"? Would prefer one or two fewer games than any versus BPi/RPI lower than 200 (already have those in league play). Those are lose/lose propositions.

Still early. Home-and-home negotiations take time. And maybe with only two players above 6' 10" and 'persistent' injuries GU has decided to play a UW schedule and pad their record? And guess what? It ain't happening!


>6. Given above, certainly don't expect a FF next year. However, a regression beyond the NCAA second weekend will destroy the ability to rebuild for another FF soon.

I don't expect a FF any year. Anything beyond the second weekend is a bonus, not a regression if they don't make it. Don't you listen to Coach Few about the up's and down's of playing in the tournament?


>7. A result we couldn't quite hope for last year presages a significant decline next year? A crossroads: Zags have become elite, but not yet established at that level to withstand a crash.
Great team, but not yet Duke, Kansas, UCLA, Syracuse, Wisconsin, Michigan State, Kentucky -- all of which can rise after a disappointing season or two. That's the next level for GU. Hope the miracles we don't yet know about will appear.​ Don't need a long summer, fall and first five games to perpetuate these thoughts, much less posts like this. HELP!

Zags have been elite for a number of years. You just haven't been paying attention.

Can't understand why you can't be happy with their first Final Four? Enjoy it. Savor it. But, don't expect it. There's no where to go next year but down unless they win it all. I'm going to wear my five Final Four t-shirts proudly (2 bought at the bookstore, 3 bought by friends in Phoenix at the FF) and watch and cheer for the new team. And if the don't get to the second weekend, I'll do he same thing as I've done every other time... be sad for a few days and know that they'll do it next year.

MDABE80
05-08-2017, 12:09 PM
Read GoZags contribution. 2-3 players in the que. 4 of our top 5 scorers are in the wind. That'll slow anyone down. I don't think this team is "Title ready". I'm thinking it'll be like the older seasons when we had some very easy ones but also quite a few "grinders". Now if Collins and Nigel had stayed..........

TexasZagFan
05-08-2017, 12:16 PM
Read GoZags contribution. 2-3 players in the que. 4 of our top 5 scorers are in the wind. That'll slow anyone down. I don't think this team is "Title ready". I'm thinking it'll be like the older seasons when we had some very easy ones but also quite a few "grinders". Now if Collins and Nigel had stayed..........

Queue up Hall & Oates..."they're gone..."

If Nigel and Zach had stayed, expectations would have been off the charts. Forget the journey, it would be all about the destination, and we'd be no better than Blue Blood fans.

I'm very comfortable with the makeup of our team as it is now. They're going to be a fun bunch to watch, and the rotation is opened up for Rui, Norvell, Larsen and others. This team will be a definite contender come March.

thespywhozaggedme
05-08-2017, 01:13 PM
Read GoZags contribution. 2-3 players in the que. 4 of our top 5 scorers are in the wind. That'll slow anyone down. I don't think this team is "Title ready". I'm thinking it'll be like the older seasons when we had some very easy ones but also quite a few "grinders". Now if Collins and Nigel had stayed..........

I'd be shocked if this current team as is doesn't make it to at least the Sweet 16. PS they're gone, in the infamous words of Elsa and Anna, "let it go".