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Zag_Dad
04-07-2017, 11:18 AM
I love the fact that GU is discerning about whose number is retired but I think you could make a solid argument that Przemek's number 24 belongs in the rafters. I believe Gonzaga's first trip to the title game will not be our last and I also believe that we will bring the trophy home one day. Shem's part in this first trip is noteworthy and should always be remembered. But this is not why I believe his jersey should be retired ... I believe it belongs in the rafters with #44 and #12 because of the number 136. That number may stand forever! The most wins for a NCAA college basketball player.

Gonzaga should hold true to their approach and wait a significant period of time to make this decision but I am in favor of honoring the Big guy forever.

stevet75
04-07-2017, 11:43 AM
I'm kind of torn on this. Although that is a great record and Shem is one of our all time greats, you have to take into consideration that 136 involved a lot of people other than Shem. He was involved with some great Zag teams. It's not quite the same as an all-time scoring or rebounding record.
On the other hand, all records involve the team and without him we wouldn't have made the national championship game.

team6
04-07-2017, 11:53 AM
Don't mean to interrupt at all but he actually has 137, unless non division 1 games are not counted. That would take off 3, LEWIS CLARK ST his freshman year, CHAMINADE his sophomore year, and ST. THOMAS AQUINAS his junior year.

But I'm pretty sure they just count wins and the number of games Gonzaga won and he played at least 1 min are: 32, 29, 35, 4, 37 which is 137.

CDC84
04-07-2017, 11:58 AM
Adam is long, long, long overdue....in addition to getting some POY awards, he led the nation in scoring, was a Spokane native, committed to GU out of HS, and elevated the stature of the program to a whole new level. He was a major figure in college basketball. Regardless of how his NBA career went, he was still a top 5 pick as well. And he was a great player from the opening tip. Probably should've started his freshman year.

He should get retired before anyone. I don't know what the wait is.

jbslicer
04-07-2017, 12:06 PM
Adam is long, long, long overdue....in addition to getting some POY awards, he led the nation in scoring, was a Spokane native, committed to GU out of HS, and elevated the stature of the program to a whole new level. He was a major figure in college basketball. Regardless of how his NBA career went, he was still a top 5 pick as well. And he was a great player from the opening tip. Probably should've started his freshman year.

He should get retired before anyone. I don't know what the wait is.

He definitely should have started as a freshman.

CDC84
04-07-2017, 12:16 PM
I still argue that Ammo not starting as a freshman played a part in Gonzaga making such a quick exit from the NCAA tourney in 2003/04. It was one of MF's only massive mistakes as a head coach. Too much allegiance to upperclassmen and not enough attention paid to how much Adam was effecting the team. For the last month of the season, Gonzaga got off to slow start after slow start after slow start until Adam came in. Then Gonzaga got going. That worked okay against the dreadful WCC, but it was a different situation in the NCAA's. By the time Ronny collected 2 fouls and Adam got in the game, Nevada had basically said to the world "Game Over." I am 100% certain that Trent Johnson told his team to jump on Gonzaga from the opening tip to establish a big lead before Adam came in at around the 12 minute mark....that GU's team had become substandard offensively without Adam on the floor.

team6
04-07-2017, 12:16 PM
Adam is long, long, long overdue....in addition to getting some POY awards, he led the nation in scoring, was a Spokane native, committed to GU out of HS, and elevated the stature of the program to a whole new level. He was a major figure in college basketball. Regardless of how his NBA career went, he was still a top 5 pick as well. And he was a great player from the opening tip. Probably should've started his freshman year.

He should get retired before anyone. I don't know what the wait is.

I agree with all of this!

ZagLawGrad
04-07-2017, 12:20 PM
Shem was a good player. But not a great player. Great has to be at least the minimum for such an accolade.

Zag_Dad
04-07-2017, 12:38 PM
Shem was a good player. But not a great player. Great has to be at least the minimum for such an accolade.

I wonder how much we'll miss that "good" player next year. I think people underestimate his impact on the teams success over the years. Look how long it took to right the ship last year after we lost him due to his back injury.

Hoopaholic
04-07-2017, 12:38 PM
Shem was a good player. But not a great player. Great has to be at least the minimum for such an accolade.

Please define great then

team6
04-07-2017, 12:41 PM
Please define great then

Not that I hate on Shem at all, I love him as a player he did so many amazing things for this team. That being said great does not go 1-8 with 4 TO in the biggest game ever for the school you play for and the biggest game of your career. It just doesn't, a great player makes things happen at the greatest moments of their careers.

Zagdawg
04-07-2017, 12:47 PM
Being back on the court after near career ending injury and leading us to the National Championship game makes him a great Zag player in my book-- one game does not define a player.

Don't know that he deserves his jersey retired ahead of some of the other players that can/should be ahead of him.

CDC84
04-07-2017, 12:54 PM
I think Shem deserves some consideration at some point, but other players should be considered first.

What's hard is a kid like Kelly Olynyk. He had one great year at GU. Yes, he was a universal first AA both academically and in basketball. Yes, he led Gonzaga to its very first number one ranking and number one seed. And yes he was a lottery pick. But do you retire his number based on one incredible season???

That's a tough one......

jazzdelmar
04-07-2017, 12:56 PM
There are arguably 10 players in the HOF queue ahead of Karno. A delightful young man, a very good college bb player.

team6
04-07-2017, 01:02 PM
There are arguably 10 players in the HOF queue ahead of Karno. A delightful young man, a very good college bb player.

This.

Also you show greatness in the final 4, that's the biggest stage of this sport. In any sport especially basketball players are known for greatness based on championship level games. This was the first year players on the Zags teams got to show greatness and a few players had some great plays but no one stood out as a great player. I think if Collins didn't get into foul trouble he would have but that's neither here nor there. Karno while a very good player isn't a great player, there's no stats to support that other then saying 'well his stats don't really show it but he is!' If you replace Sabonis on this team with Karno we win the championship by 10+. And that's nothing against Karno but Sabonis was a great player, Karno has a great story and came back from tremendous adversity and he should be applauded for that. That doesn't make him a great player.

stevet75
04-07-2017, 01:04 PM
Adam is long, long, long overdue....in addition to getting some POY awards, he led the nation in scoring, was a Spokane native, committed to GU out of HS, and elevated the stature of the program to a whole new level. He was a major figure in college basketball. Regardless of how his NBA career went, he was still a top 5 pick as well. And he was a great player from the opening tip. Probably should've started his freshman year.

He should get retired before anyone. I don't know what the wait is.

I completely agree

jazzdelmar
04-07-2017, 01:05 PM
This.

Also you show greatness in the final 4, that's the biggest stage of this sport. In any sport especially basketball players are known for greatness based on championship level games. This was the first year players on the Zags teams got to show greatness and a few players had some great plays but no one stood out as a great player. I think if Collins didn't get into foul trouble he would have but that's neither here nor there. Karno while a very good player isn't a great player, there's no stats to support that other then saying 'well his stats don't really show it but he is!' If you replace Sabonis on this team with Karno we win the championship by 10+. And that's nothing against Karno but Sabonis was a great player, Karno has a great story and came back from tremendous adversity and he should be applauded for that. That doesn't make him a great player.

Superb, if risky, analysis.

maynard g krebs
04-07-2017, 01:10 PM
There are arguably 10 players in the HOF queue ahead of Karno. A delightful young man, a very good college bb player.

Agree in principle.

Adam, Dickau, Santangelo, Turiaf, Calvary, Frahm next imo. All subjective; I value the founders and multiyear contributors/upperclassmen more than say Olynyk/Sabonis. Love Karno but not 3rd on the list after Stockton/Burgess.

Zagdawg
04-07-2017, 01:11 PM
Your story has too many holes-- if player X was "great" why didn't they lead us to a final 4 when they were here -- sorry doesn't hold water.

Players may be different and both be great players who bring different skill sets to the table-- some just make the entire team better --- newer viewers/fans look at the stat sheet and say that because player x did not score more than player y -- they are not as good.

It's the complete package a player brings -- without Karnowski we made it to a sweet 16 with our other two bigs/NBA guys last year -- with him we went to a national championship game (and an elite 8 game the year prior).

bartruff1
04-07-2017, 01:12 PM
Aren't Melson and or Perkins likely to break the 137 game record ?

jazzdelmar
04-07-2017, 01:12 PM
Agree in principle.

Adam, Dickau, Santangelo, Turiaf, Calvary, Frahm next imo. All subjective; I value the founders and multiyear contributors/upperclassmen more than say Olynyk/Sabonis. Love Karno but not 3rd on the list after Stockton/Burgess.

Pangos, Blake, Rob, Matt B?

maynard g krebs
04-07-2017, 01:18 PM
Pangos, Blake, Rob, Matt B?

I'd call Karno the equal of Rob. Sure you could make just as good an argument for any of yours above as those I listed. That's why I guess it needs to be limited to the indisputable greats.

TexasZagFan
04-07-2017, 01:23 PM
I think that the new Hall of Fame in the practice facility will afford ample opportunity to recognize former greats, without the necessity to retire their jersey numbers.

Rather than retire a number, make it a tradition that a new player has to "earn" the right to wear that number. In an informal way, it's like that with the #88 with the Dallas Cowboys: Drew Pearson, Michael Irvin, and Dez Bryant are 88.

Hoopaholic
04-07-2017, 01:26 PM
Not that I hate on Shem at all, I love him as a player he did so many amazing things for this team. That being said great does not go 1-8 with 4 TO in the biggest game ever for the school you play for and the biggest game of your career. It just doesn't, a great player makes things happen at the greatest moments of their careers.

So you are defining greatness in single
Game. Interesting

Martin Centre Mad Man
04-07-2017, 01:33 PM
Aren't Melson and or Perkins likely to break the 137 game record ?

Probably not. Karno literally played full seasons for the three winningest teams in program history. He also picked up five bonus wins during his redshirt year. To get 137 in just four years, a player would need to average 35 wins/season. I don't think any player could ever equal Karnowski's record.

Melson won't, because he missed a few games before they burned his redshirt. Perk missed most of the 35-win Elite Eight season due to injury.

team6
04-07-2017, 01:39 PM
So you are defining greatness in single
Game. Interesting

Great players show up in big games, check every great player in any sport ever. Again I'm talking about great, if you want to have a specific list of only Gonzaga players that are great then you're using the term great very very loosely. Shem made so many silly mistakes in so many games, I don't see how you could label him great. If you want to bring up all the games of his career how many times did he score over 25 and have over 10 rebounds (in the same game).. Because when I think of a great center they better have a bunch of those games. Again we aren't talking about a very good center we are talking great. Shem is a very good center. People throw around great WAY too much, great players don't come on your team very often. No matter who your team is.

I shouldn't have said anything I just get tired of everyone wanting to name the next player great, I really liked watching Karno play I thought he was a great fit at Gonzaga but I don't understand why people are trying to make him out to be more then he was.

TheZagPhish
04-07-2017, 01:44 PM
Just don't retire Mark Few.

MontanaCoyote
04-07-2017, 01:53 PM
I wonder how much we'll miss that "good" player next year. I think people underestimate his impact on the teams success over the years. Look how long it took to right the ship last year after we lost him due to his back injury.

Oh yes we will miss him! If the Zag's brought in 3 top ten high school prospects and NWG and ZC stayed, Karno would STILL be missed! I've said it many times before, but I will believe to my dying day that no other player in college basketball was as valuable to his team in so many different ways (many quiet, unseen and others under appreciated) than Karno.

You can replace a player, you can't replace a Karno, you just can't.

I think his jersey should be retired but I've heard that probably isn't likely? So if not, I'd like to see, and I'm not kidding, a life sized bronze of Karno placed in just the right place. Have him shooting that baby hook. That should get the bronze up to about 9 feet +. Kids would love it and it would set all time records for photos and selfies! Create an attraction! Why not!?
The guy deserves it, fans would love it, and fundraisers would fund it. Go for it!

MontanaCoyote
04-07-2017, 02:11 PM
Great players show up in big games, check every great player in any sport ever. Again I'm talking about great, if you want to have a specific list of only Gonzaga players that are great then you're using the term great very very loosely. Shem made so many silly mistakes in so many games, I don't see how you could label him great. If you want to bring up all the games of his career how many times did he score over 25 and have over 10 rebounds (in the same game).. Because when I think of a great center they better have a bunch of those games. Again we aren't talking about a very good center we are talking great. Shem is a very good center. People throw around great WAY too much, great players don't come on your team very often. No matter who your team is.

I shouldn't have said anything I just get tired of everyone wanting to name the next player great, I really liked watching Karno play I thought he was a great fit at Gonzaga but I don't understand why people are trying to make him out to be more then he was.


It's not just about the player, it's about the man. Shem doesn't have to be a great player to be a great Zag. But it is a great time, in honoring Karno, to finally recognize that what makes a player great is not just how great he plays, but how he plays and what he brings to a team and school as a player, person, teammate, and student.

Lots of "great" players around who's greatness starts and ends with their athletic accomplishments. What better place than Gonzaga to broaden the definition of greatness by recognizing everything that makes an athlete, person, teammate and person great.

Hang that # 24 high!

ZagsObserver
04-07-2017, 02:20 PM
Let's talk ammo before anyone that came after him.

Zagdawg
04-07-2017, 02:24 PM
Agree with TexasZagFan -- the new facility will allow many of our players that contributed significantly to the program to be recognized.

jagwalkley
04-07-2017, 03:14 PM
Adam should be there before any new one gets ahead of him.Now even close.

jagwalkley
04-07-2017, 03:18 PM
ahem.

gonzagafan62
04-07-2017, 03:21 PM
Great players show up in big games, check every great player in any sport ever. Again I'm talking about great, if you want to have a specific list of only Gonzaga players that are great then you're using the term great very very loosely. Shem made so many silly mistakes in so many games, I don't see how you could label him great. If you want to bring up all the games of his career how many times did he score over 25 and have over 10 rebounds (in the same game).. Because when I think of a great center they better have a bunch of those games. Again we aren't talking about a very good center we are talking great. Shem is a very good center. People throw around great WAY too much, great players don't come on your team very often. No matter who your team is.

I shouldn't have said anything I just get tired of everyone wanting to name the next player great, I really liked watching Karno play I thought he was a great fit at Gonzaga but I don't understand why people are trying to make him out to be more then he was.

Dan Marino was terrible in big games.

jagwalkley
04-07-2017, 03:55 PM
amen to that,He should be the first one up there next.

gonzagafan62
04-07-2017, 04:03 PM
Jerry Vermillion, Ammo should be next. It should be hard to have number retired.

MickMick
04-07-2017, 04:04 PM
Morrison

Zags_Fanatic
04-07-2017, 04:28 PM
I have to wonder if there are plans to retire one or more numbers when they open the new hall of fame in the practice facility.

Zagger
04-07-2017, 04:28 PM
How do numbers get retired anyway? Groundswell of support? If so I'd write in for both Ammo and Mt K.

MDABE80
04-07-2017, 04:34 PM
AAs please. Adam is the only one right now.

23dpg
04-07-2017, 04:38 PM
Like everyone else, I love Shem. But retiring his number? No.
I would retire Turiaf's number before Karnowski's. Wouldn't you?

Zags11
04-07-2017, 04:46 PM
Dan Marino was terrible in big games.

Shem was best post defense center I have seen in last 15 years at gonzaga. I believe they had him ranked #1. (Some stat site) He will be missed more then ppl think. His offense was good but not great. What hurt him IMO was his lack of hops and explosiveness.

He had plenty of good games vs great teams. He just didn't have it vs NC. It wasn't cuz of Meeks.

Zags11
04-07-2017, 04:48 PM
AAs please. Adam is the only one right now.

The issue with just AA's is it is for more the offensive talented then the defensively minded player. Adam had zero defense. Zip, Nada, none. He had all the offense in the world. One of the best I've seen in college. So how do you decide between offense and defense?

Zagdawg
04-07-2017, 05:02 PM
Nice to see he is recognized by folks outside of our program also.

Lindsay Joy‏
@SWXLindsayJoy
Gonzaga's @PKarnowski wins the Kareem Abdul-Jabbar award for the best center in college basketball #CBBAwards

Lindsay Joy‏ @SWXLindsayJoy 20m20 minutes ago
Best part: Jay Bilas presented the award to him, who is still growing a beard. "It's a slow process," @PKarnowski said of Bilas' beard

kitzbuel
04-07-2017, 05:40 PM
Nice to see he is recognized by folks outside of our program also.

Lindsay Joy‏
@SWXLindsayJoy
Gonzaga's @PKarnowski wins the Kareem Abdul-Jabbar award for the best center in college basketball #CBBAwards

Lindsay Joy‏ @SWXLindsayJoy 20m20 minutes ago
Best part: Jay Bilas presented the award to him, who is still growing a beard. "It's a slow process," @PKarnowski said of Bilas' beard
Thank goodness our forum members weren't voters. He would only be the fourth best in our conference.

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

Once and Future Zag
04-07-2017, 05:41 PM
GU has set a standard for number retirement, and it involves not only their GU career, but what they do after.

Let's see what he does with the next 30 years of his life before we start talking retirement of numbers.

MDABE80
04-07-2017, 06:52 PM
The issue with just AA's is it is for more the offensive talented then the defensively minded player. Adam had zero defense. Zip, Nada, none. He had all the offense in the world. One of the best I've seen in college. So how do you decide between offense and defense?

Overall. One doesn't decide based on o or d. He's an AA . And he deserved it.Chevrolet POY.

gonzagafan62
04-07-2017, 07:10 PM
The issue with just AA's is it is for more the offensive talented then the defensively minded player. Adam had zero defense. Zip, Nada, none. He had all the offense in the world. One of the best I've seen in college. So how do you decide between offense and defense?

Yup

Zag_Dad
04-07-2017, 09:10 PM
GU has set a standard for number retirement, and it involves not only their GU career, but what they do after.

Let's see what he does with the next 30 years of his life before we start talking retirement of numbers.

So Shem needs to go to law school and become a Magistrate in the US Federal court before we can consider retiring his number?

ZagaZags
04-08-2017, 12:56 AM
Retiring #24 is a no-brainer. 137-15.

http://cdn.inquisitr.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Przemek-Karnowski-670x472.jpg

bartruff1
04-08-2017, 06:59 AM
So Shem needs to go to law school and become a Magistrate in the US Federal court before we can consider retiring his number?

Not Necessarily, he could have a all star career in the NBA, win a couple Gold Medals, get elected to the NBA HOF.....ect.

Burgess graduated in 1961 and had his number retired in 2005.

Stockton graduated in 1984 and had his number retired in 2004.

I don't know what role it plays, but Roth mentioned that the Judge had a outstanding career AFTER he graduated from Gonzaga.

Of course, the same can be said for Stockton. Coincidence ??? I think not.

MontanaCoyote
04-08-2017, 08:44 AM
Thank goodness our forum members weren't voters. He would only be the fourth best in our conference.

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

Man, kitzbuel, did you nail it or what!? Lots of nice comments on this thread, but wasn't it just sooooooo easy for far too many Gonzaga "fans" to climb all over Karno?

And most of it because he was the player he was and not the kind or style of player they wanted him to be...........like he had any choice in the matter. Sweet Jesus! I thank God (and his parents, of course) for giving us Karno exactly the way he is.......the player, the teammate, the person.

There will never be another Karno, which is exactly as it should be and,I think, as it was meant to be.

MontanaCoyote
04-08-2017, 08:49 AM
[QUOTE=ZagaZags;1314772]Retiring #24 is a no-brainer. 137-15.

http://cdn.inquisitr.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Przemek-Karnowski-670x472.jpg[/QUOTE

Yes! This! +1.

Once and Future Zag
04-08-2017, 09:37 AM
Not Necessarily, he could have a all star career in the NBA, win a couple Gold Medals, get elected to the NBA HOF.....ect.

Burgess graduated in 1961 and had his number retired in 2005.

Stockton graduated in 1984 and had his number retired in 2004.

I don't know what role it plays, but Roth mentioned that the Judge had a outstanding career AFTER he graduated from Gonzaga.

Of course, the same can be said for Stockton. Coincidence ??? I think not.

This.

I don't think it's taking away anything from Mt. K to say that talking about retiring his number is a bit premature.

Zagceo
04-08-2017, 09:46 AM
This.

I don't think it's taking away anything from Mt. K to say that talking about retiring his number is a bit premature.

I agree with you........BUT........... if Przemek went 8-8 and we beat UNC would that change your mind?

MontanaCoyote
04-08-2017, 10:07 AM
[QUOTE=ZagaZags;1314772]Retiring #24 is a no-brainer. 137-15.

http://cdn.inquisitr.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Przemek-Karnowski-670x472.jpg[/QUOTE

Yes! This! +1.

If #24 isn't retired in the traditional sense, at least for now, how about this? Honor Karno's 5 years and his, the Zag's and the all time NCAA 137 wins by suspending the use of #24 for 5 years. When the suspension ends (and if it still isn't the "right time" (whatever that means) to retire Shem's number for good) have him come back for a mid court ceremony and give his number back. No player even has to take it, but if a player wants it, Shemmick can give it to him.


No one has jumped on this one way or another and I may be the only one that thinks it's a good idea, but until I get shot down I think that a full sized bronze of Karno ( maybe shooting the baby hook ?) would not only honor him but would prove to be a great attraction for pictures, selfies, et al......a real conversation piece, something absolutely unique, something people would go out of their way to see.

There's more than one artist out there that could do it. You could have a contest to raise the money for it and probably more money than that. Fund raisers, too. Maybe even a dollar a vote contest to pick the design.

Maybe I'm just an old tired out softie, but I think it would be an "out of sight,"......... No "Cool,"....... No "AWESOME"
thing to do.

maynard g krebs
04-08-2017, 10:23 AM
[QUOTE=MontanaCoyote;1314800]

If #24 isn't retired in the traditional sense, at least for now, how about this? Honor Karno's 5 years and his, the Zag's and the all time NCAA 137 wins by suspending the use of #24 for 5 years. When the suspension ends (and if it still isn't the "right time" (whatever that means) to retire Shem's number for good) have him come back for a mid court ceremony and give his number back. No player even has to take it, but if a player wants it, Shemmick can give it to him.


No one has jumped on this one way or another and I may be the only one that thinks it's a good idea, but until I get shot down I think that a full sized bronze of Karno ( maybe shooting the baby hook ?) would not only honor him but would prove to be a great attraction for pictures, selfies, et al......a real conversation piece, something absolutely unique, something people would go out of their way to see.

There's more than one artist out there that could do it. You could have a contest to raise the money for it and probably more money than that. Fund raisers, too. Maybe even a dollar a vote contest to pick the design.

Maybe I'm just an old tired out softie, but I think it would be an "out of sight,"......... No "Cool,"....... No "AWESOME"
thing to do.

Thing is, as has been pointed out, there are a dozen or so other players who could legitimately say "why him and not me?"

Once and Future Zag
04-08-2017, 11:25 AM
I agree with you........BUT........... if Przemek went 8-8 and we beat UNC would that change your mind?

Nope.

And I don't think it would change the minds of those at GU who would be in charge of said decisions.

I understand the position that the retiring of numbers can be done based on on-the-court exploits - but I think it should take more than just college basketball.

Zagceo
04-08-2017, 11:50 AM
Nope.

And I don't think it would change the minds of those at GU who would be in charge of said decisions.

I understand the position that the retiring of numbers can be done based on on-the-court exploits - but I think it should take more than just college basketball.



"What you are as a PERSON is far more important than what you are as a BASKETBALL PLAYER"JRW

tyra
04-08-2017, 01:16 PM
Ripped from the Beating a Dead Horse category (with thanks to Zag62): I know it was a long time ago people but for God's sake, Jerry Vermillion is 700 rebounds ahead of the next leading rebounder! 700! Think about that. Jerry Vermillion should be next, while he's still alive. I don't think this is hard. And from the "I can't believe I heard that right", I asked one of the assistant coaches a few months ago why Vermillion's jersey wasn't Retired and he said: "I've never heard of him." I was saddened.

Zagceo
04-08-2017, 01:39 PM
Ripped from the Beating a Dead Horse category (with thanks to Zag62): I know it was a long time ago people but for God's sake, Jerry Vermillion is 700 rebounds ahead of the next leading rebounder! 700! Think about that. Jerry Vermillion should be next, while he's still alive. I don't think this is hard. And from the "I can't believe I heard that right", I asked one of the assistant coaches a few months ago why Vermillion's jersey wasn't Retired and he said: "I've never heard of him." I was saddened.

I have not been able to find Vermillion on any NCAA record sites....

or wiki

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NCAA_Division_I_men%27s_basketball_career_ rebounding_leaders

have you?

Once and Future Zag
04-08-2017, 01:49 PM
I have not been able to find Vermillion on any NCAA record sites....

or wiki

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NCAA_Division_I_men%27s_basketball_career_ rebounding_leaders

have you?

Gonzaga was NAIA (not NCAA) until 1957 - Vermillion graduated in '55

MontanaCoyote
04-09-2017, 08:51 AM
[QUOTE=MontanaCoyote;1314824]

Thing is, as has been pointed out, there are a dozen or so other players who could legitimately say "why him and not me?"

Maynard, A very good point. I'm even thinking that Karno, being the person he is, would agree with you. And I bet that those dozen or so deserving Zag's out there would likely be very diplomatic in their responses if #24 were retired. We're talking Gonzaga kids after all.

Still, I really do understand and appreciate what you're saying which many other posters agree with.

I've suggested some "fall back" ideas like suspending Karno's 24 for 5 years to represent and honor the 5 years he was with us. I don't think this would be inappropriate and could simply be done to honor the all time NCAA wins leader.

If that's going "too far", how about at least a full sized painting of Karno at the Mac like the one painted on the Zag's locker room wall at the Final Four? Print under or next to it; Przemek Karnowski, 1012 - 1017 All Time NCAA Leader In Wins 318
Voted Nation's Best Center, Kareem Abdul Jabbar Award, 2016-2017 ?

These are two accomplishments no other Zag can claim but honoring them in this way is certainly much different than retiring a player's number.

I just think that Karno's story and legacy stands alone in Zag basketball history and should be honored for the great accomplishment it is. What say?

maynard g krebs
04-09-2017, 12:03 PM
[QUOTE=maynard g krebs;1314827]

Maynard, A very good point. I'm even thinking that Karno, being the person he is, would agree with you. And I bet that those dozen or so deserving Zag's out there would likely be very diplomatic in their responses if #24 were retired. We're talking Gonzaga kids after all.

Still, I really do understand and appreciate what you're saying which many other posters agree with.

I've suggested some "fall back" ideas like suspending Karno's 24 for 5 years to represent and honor the 5 years he was with us. I don't think this would be inappropriate and could simply be done to honor the all time NCAA wins leader.

If that's going "too far", how about at least a full sized painting of Karno at the Mac like the one painted on the Zag's locker room wall at the Final Four? Print under or next to it; Przemek Karnowski, 1012 - 1017 All Time NCAA Leader In Wins 318
Voted Nation's Best Center, Kareem Abdul Jabbar Award, 2016-2017 ?

These are two accomplishments no other Zag can claim but honoring them in this way is certainly much different than retiring a player's number.

I just think that Karno's story and legacy stands alone in Zag basketball history and should be honored for the great accomplishment it is. What say?

Among bigs, Turiaf, Calvary at least equally deserving. I do love Karno as a fellow lefty who loves great passing,, but the wins thing is overblown a bit imo due to the five extra games he got.

Zags_Fanatic
04-09-2017, 12:16 PM
but the wins thing is overblown a bit imo due to the five extra games he got.

Even if you take out the 4 extra wins he would be the all-time wins leader.

IowaSERE
04-09-2017, 12:27 PM
How about a bronze statue of his beard in the HOF? That's more deserving I think.

zagmantis2001
04-09-2017, 07:47 PM
[QUOTE=maynard g krebs;1314827]

Maynard, A very good point. I'm even thinking that Karno, being the person he is, would agree with you. And I bet that those dozen or so deserving Zag's out there would likely be very diplomatic in their responses if #24 were retired. We're talking Gonzaga kids after all.

Still, I really do understand and appreciate what you're saying which many other posters agree with.

I've suggested some "fall back" ideas like suspending Karno's 24 for 5 years to represent and honor the 5 years he was with us. I don't think this would be inappropriate and could simply be done to honor the all time NCAA wins leader.

If that's going "too far", how about at least a full sized painting of Karno at the Mac like the one painted on the Zag's locker room wall at the Final Four? Print under or next to it; Przemek Karnowski, 1012 - 1017 All Time NCAA Leader In Wins 318
Voted Nation's Best Center, Kareem Abdul Jabbar Award, 2016-2017 ?

These are two accomplishments no other Zag can claim but honoring them in this way is certainly much different than retiring a player's number.

I just think that Karno's story and legacy stands alone in Zag basketball history and should be honored for the great accomplishment it is. What say?


Maybe someone already pointed this out. Jim McPhee wore #24, second leading scorer in GU history and a guy by all accounts has been a tremendous member of the Spokane community for years. If you are going to retire #24, it should probably be mentioned that he wore the same number.

webspinnre
04-09-2017, 08:32 PM
You know, I think there are some programs that distinguish between retiring a player's number and hanging it in the rafters. I've always liked this idea, and Przemek would be a perfect candidate for some sort of hall of honor type thing even if we didn't retire the number.

Zags_Fanatic
04-09-2017, 11:25 PM
In a way I think this thread kind of shows why they don't retire more numbers. There are a lot of deserving candidates over the past 2 decades but it's hard to define the criteria. For a smaller program that only gets a once in a generation type player it could be any player that is named an All-American, but when you look at GU we have had 4 1st teamers now and 2 left early and 2 transferred from other programs, so in a way should those accomplishments be devalued? If you stretch it out to all 3 AA teams that number rises to 11(!). Do you go with NBA lottery picks? NPOY? Should it be based on character and career achievement or reaching the pinnacle of the sport? There are more questions than answers.

They have been putting the key players on posters around the Kennel for years now which is a great way to honor a greater number of those athletes and I think that when they open the new Hall of Fame the Athletic Department's vision for honoring greatness will become much clearer.

MontanaCoyote
04-10-2017, 08:14 AM
Your story has too many holes-- if player X was "great" why didn't they lead us to a final 4 when they were here -- sorry doesn't hold water.

Players may be different and both be great players who bring different skill sets to the table-- some just make the entire team better --- newer viewers/fans look at the stat sheet and say that because player x did not score more than player y -- they are not as good.

It's the complete package a player brings -- without Karnowski we made it to a sweet 16 with our other two bigs/NBA guys last year -- with him we went to a national championship game (and an elite 8 game the year prior).

Yes! +1 This! The Complete Package. Makes team better than it's individual players. This is what I've tried to get across many times in posting that "No player in D-1 is (has been) as valuable to his team In So Many Different Ways than Karno." Player (raw stats), player (all non stat on court contributions) experience, teammate, de facto coach, leadership, longevity, inspirational leader, commitment, resourcefulness and simply the person and role model he is.

It's easy to become enthralled with raw athleticism and pure basketball talent. I get that. Harder to recognize the total package, especially when it's not out there for everyone to see like a RUI slam.

In my ongoing support for Shem I've never claimed that Karno was our best player, just our all around most important player. A look at where he's helped take us confirms just that.

As CBS Sports wrote during the Final Four, "Without him, the Zag's are not in Arizona."

GoZag
04-10-2017, 09:56 AM
Ripped from the Beating a Dead Horse category (with thanks to Zag62): I know it was a long time ago people but for God's sake, Jerry Vermillion is 700 rebounds ahead of the next leading rebounder! 700! Think about that. Jerry Vermillion should be next, while he's still alive. I don't think this is hard. And from the "I can't believe I heard that right", I asked one of the assistant coaches a few months ago why Vermillion's jersey wasn't Retired and he said: "I've never heard of him." I was saddened.

Could not agree more, Vermillion needs to be next jersey retired. I think his number was 36 which they can't use anymore anyway. No drawback to giving a nod to the rebounding king.

ZagsGoZags
04-10-2017, 11:24 AM
next banner to hang in the rafter should be
ammo,
its already been ten years, I don't like a 30 yr rule myself.
This award is not just about Gonzaga authorities, it is also
about the player. Why wait until he is old?
After the nation stigmatized him for crying, when I have seen a half dozen
players crying just this season on national TV,
it would be part of our tribute to him.
We have the national notoriety of the 99-01 phase
the ammo phase
the KO-Elite 8, runner up phase (2013 to now).
Phase 2 really put us on the national map again, turning us from a mid-major spurt into
a national brand of a small college that has staying power.

Vizagra
04-11-2017, 12:08 PM
#3 before any other number.