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zag buddy
04-04-2017, 10:52 AM
This game was the least efficient game we played this year. Why? It wasn't because of the skill level of our players . I believe it was because of the mental and emotional drain that the 48 hours preceding this game took on our players. I think they were worn out mentally. Way to much hoopla and attention given to our guys constantly took it's toll. Putting our players in a mental frame they and our coaches had not experienced before. I do believe we were the best team on the floor that game. It's a learning experience that coaches and staff will learn from going forward. When ever you are the first to achieve something, especially of this magnitude, it is difficult. It will help the future teams for years. I am so proud of these guys. Thanks for the enjoyable experience of watching you perform this year Zag players.

gonzagafan62
04-04-2017, 10:53 AM
I am proud of them too regardless of outcome.

Still think Collins fouling out was the dagger though

Zags11
04-04-2017, 11:03 AM
I am proud of them too regardless of outcome.

Still think Collins fouling out was the dagger though

This. He dominated NC.

MickMick
04-04-2017, 11:09 AM
The length and defensive intensity of UNC.

Pure and simple.

titopoet
04-04-2017, 11:10 AM
I am proud of them too regardless of outcome.

Still think Collins fouling out was the dagger though

+1000 I do think UNC experience in these moments was the difference. Next season, it will be GU with that experience. UNC came out in the second half with a purpose and the Zags were flat for the first 5 minutes.

scrooner
04-04-2017, 11:37 AM
Maybe they ate turkey sandwiches at half time.

Goshzagit
04-04-2017, 11:46 AM
Collins plays 5 more mins & we win.

Also, NWG and Karno were combined 6-26 from the field.

Karno was only doubled once. He missed at least 7 bunnies, easy layups shots he made all year, all career.

Same with Nigel. Missed runners & floaters that are automatic for him.

His bum ankle messed up his timing/jumping.

These are all excuses, yet IF Shem makes just 2 more of this 7 missed shots, or Nigel didnt roll an ankle vs SC, or Collins has 2 phantom fouls, we are National Champs today.

Even just 1 of those 3, we win.

ProVeeZag
04-04-2017, 11:49 AM
I am proud of them too regardless of outcome.

Still think Collins fouling out was the dagger though

Agree, on a phantom call at that.

ZagsGoZags
04-04-2017, 12:37 PM
The bookends aspect of this game,
Perkins turning the ball over in the first and last minute of the game did not help.

jazzdelmar
04-04-2017, 12:40 PM
Roy stopped our 2 best players. He put length on NWG and sent players at ZC all night, imploring the refs for calls. He lived w Josh's scoring in the first half, much of which Josh gave back with egregious TOs. Karno was the wildcard and did not deliver.

Great season. NWG is gone, no way he plays a 5th year vs WCC talent. He will hope for a FA signing or go overseas and make half a mil type money. Needs to start honing his craft; Portland, Pep, etc not the place for that.

ZC another story. He's prob 50-50 but his best pal is leaving and the team will be weaker. Perform at the combine and he's gone.

Both gone, Zags will dip. A relative term, of course. Look for 25-28 wins and plenty of new faces.

cjm720
04-04-2017, 12:44 PM
Collins plays 5 more mins & we win.

Also, NWG and Karno were combined 6-26 from the field.

Karno was only doubled once. He missed at least 7 bunnies, easy layups shots he made all year, all career.

Same with Nigel. Missed runners & floaters that are automatic for him.

His bum ankle messed up his timing/jumping.

These are all excuses, yet IF Shem makes just 2 more of this 7 missed shots, or Nigel didnt roll an ankle vs SC, or Collins has 2 phantom fouls, we are National Champs today.

Even just 1 of those 3, we win.

Exactly, but UNC's experience and length created these effects coupled with the refs destroying any momentum for us to capitalize on our runs.

jake
04-04-2017, 12:50 PM
When you're looking at a 1 point game with under a minute to go, I don't think there is a "reason" we lost. It's just the way games go. I understand talking about things we could have done differently, things North Carolina did well, things we did poorly, etc. etc. but at the end of the day coming up with a reason one team lost a back and forth game attempts to change one component of an extremely complicated, dynamic event while leaving all of the other components the same. That might give you a contributing factor to a loss, but it isn't "the reason" we lost.

JPtheBeasta
04-04-2017, 02:22 PM
Collins plays 5 more mins & we win.

Also, NWG and Karno were combined 6-26 from the field.

Karno was only doubled once. He missed at least 7 bunnies, easy layups shots he made all year, all career.

Same with Nigel. Missed runners & floaters that are automatic for him.

His bum ankle messed up his timing/jumping.

These are all excuses, yet IF Shem makes just 2 more of this 7 missed shots, or Nigel didnt roll an ankle vs SC, or Collins has 2 phantom fouls, we are National Champs today.

Even just 1 of those 3, we win.

NWG faced a big challenge in Jackson, but he still missed so many of his bread and butter shots. The other guards needed to step up. Berry would seem to have been the guy to attack.

I agree that Shem seemed to get into the shots he wanted and just missed them. Poor guy. I'm sure he feels terrible about it.

Collins was the most effect player out there. It's really too bad he couldn't stay in the game. A more experienced player might adapt to the way the game was called and find a way to avoid a few of those fouls. I don't know, though. It was tough to watch.

So many woulda, coulda, shouldas running through my mind during this hangover after the loss.

bartruff1
04-04-2017, 02:35 PM
The length and defensive intensity of UNC.

Pure and simple. in a nutshell ...

CDC84
04-04-2017, 02:36 PM
I don't think there is ever one thing that leads to a loss. It's a multitude of things. It has an accumulative effect.

former1dog
04-04-2017, 02:44 PM
I don't think Gonzaga played particularly well for most of the 2nd half. It was amazing to me they were actually IN the game they played so poorly.

The refs ruined the game for both teams. I do think it had a bigger effect on us, considering that Karnowski had close to the worst offensive game of his career and Collins fouled out, so no help there.

MontanaCoyote
04-04-2017, 03:39 PM
I don't think Gonzaga played particularly well for most of the 2nd half. It was amazing to me they were actually IN the game they played so poorly.

The refs ruined the game for both teams. I do think it had a bigger effect on us, considering that Karnowski had close to the worst offensive game of his career and Collins fouled out, so no help there.

This time the entire nation is "you know what" about the officiating. I'm most upset about the flagrant foul called on Karno.
The poor guy has been criminally assaulted time and time again and he get's tagged for ...........WHAT!? Ridiculous!

ZagDad84
04-04-2017, 03:56 PM
First and foremost congratulations to UNC. They weathered the hype, the Zags and the officials by just enough to pull out a victory. For Yesterday anyway, they were the better team.

Several issues about the Zags game yesterday and it was very similar to the BYU game we lost.

- 2nd half shooting was dismal - we only shot 27.6% overall and 30% from 3-point range.
- Karno was only 1-8 and most of the misses were bunnies. He shoots 60% for the season.
- 14 turnovers leading to 15 UNC points. We average only 9 turnovers a game.
- We shot only 65.4% from the charity stripe and Karno was 7-9. Where was everybody else.
- We got outscored in the Paint 40-18. Yes we had foul problems but this should have been much closer.
- We did not get the ball to the bigs to force UNC to foul us, it was always us fouling them.
- The officiating which kept the game from getting any flow and kept players out of the game.

I find in hard to blame the refs for the loss, when GU played (offensively) so far off their season averages. Clean up your game first, and then maybe you have a leg to stand on. Blaming the refs is like asking them to keep us in the game no matter how poorly we played offensively. Yes UNC is a very good team that creates some particular problems, but I was not and still am not scared of them. If we both play to our ability and the refs keep the whistle out of their mouths, I think we win 3 out of 5.

Goss's ankle probably hurt his effectiveness. Karno just looked tired from the get go. Stupid turnovers which gave the momentum to UNC to start the 2nd half. You simply cannot make these kinds of errors against a top tier team and expect to win. Neither team played their best. UNC simply made more plays at the end.

Thank you to the team, players, coaches, staff and the fans for a fabulous season. Already looking forward to next October. NWG and ZC come back and let's make another run at it.

ZagDad

Reborn
04-04-2017, 04:53 PM
Roy stopped our 2 best players. He put length on NWG and sent players at ZC all night, imploring the refs for calls. He lived w Josh's scoring in the first half, much of which Josh gave back with egregious TOs. Karno was the wildcard and did not deliver.

Great season. NWG is gone, no way he plays a 5th year vs WCC talent. He will hope for a FA signing or go overseas and make half a mil type money. Needs to start honing his craft; Portland, Pep, etc not the place for that.

ZC another story. He's prob 50-50 but his best pal is leaving and the team will be weaker. Perform at the combine and he's gone.

Both gone, Zags will dip. A relative term, of course. Look for 25-28 wins and plenty of new faces.

It didn't take you long to start spelling D O O M for the Zags! What was it? One day? Or was it a half? This must have been a tough season for you to see the Zags have so much success. And Few especially.

bigblahla
04-04-2017, 05:05 PM
Ball didn't go in the hole enough....does make you think there are basketball gods and the road to the top of the mountain is steep....Gonzaga Mentality...ain't much of a hill for climber...Ball just didn't go in the hole....we missed enough free throws and open shots to win going away....no ones fault....Ball didn't go in the hole....

Love this TEAM....

Go!! Zags!!!

katman50
04-04-2017, 05:08 PM
We got beat by a better team on that given Monday night. That's pretty much the story.

Zag Man
04-04-2017, 05:32 PM
Seriously....who cares! We had a great season and all the accolades go out to the kids who played their hearts out all season long! I'm just very proud to be a Zag!

Tar Heel Jumpmaster
04-04-2017, 10:18 PM
+1000 I do think UNC experience in these moments was the difference. Next season, it will be GU with that experience. UNC came out in the second half with a purpose and the Zags were flat for the first 5 minutes.

Depending on who comes back for Gonzaga and who you add via transfer/recruiting... I expect Gonzaga to have an excellent chance at a 1 seed. Given that they will have an excellent chance at a return to the title game. If it happens, I bet Gonzaga comes out fierce in the second half.

TexasZagFan
04-05-2017, 04:54 AM
We got beat by a better team on that given Monday night. That's pretty much the story.

That's what makes this tournament the crap shoot it is.

katman50
04-05-2017, 06:21 AM
Depending on who comes back for Gonzaga and who you add via transfer/recruiting... I expect Gonzaga to have an excellent chance at a 1 seed. Given that they will have an excellent chance at a return to the title game. If it happens, I bet Gonzaga comes out fierce in the second half.

Thanks for the kind words, Tar Heel, but don't you think it's a bit early to talk about the Zags as a number one seed next year and even returning to the title game.

Bocco
04-05-2017, 08:59 AM
If you look at the box score there are two stats where North Carolina had a distinct advantage and they are interrelated....shot attempts and turnovers. North Carolina took 14 more shots than the Zags and had 10 less turnovers. Their 4 turnovers were significantly less that their average of 12 per game. The Zags had 14 turnovers not far off of their season average of 11. If GU had been able to turn them over 5-6 more times the shot attempts would have been about the same for both teams and there is a good chance the Zags have perhaps have a 3-4 lead going into the last minute of the game, and perhaps there would have been a different outcome.

CDC84
04-05-2017, 11:28 AM
I find in hard to blame the refs for the loss, when GU played (offensively) so far off their season averages. Clean up your game first, and then maybe you have a leg to stand on. Blaming the refs is like asking them to keep us in the game no matter how poorly we played offensively.

TSN felt the same thing. Both teams showed a complete lack of skill Monday night. They are to blame more than the refs for a game that was hard to watch. Also, players have to adjust to the officiating of games better. Get used to freedom of movement because it's not going away, and Mark Few is an ardent supporter of it, which is why he was fine with the refs after the game. My problem: why weren't more games like this called at the beginning of the season?? Why did they have to wait for the title game??

http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/news/ncaa-championship-2017-referees-refereeing-north-carolina-gonzaga-fouls-free-throws/15a827utajz1z19txp2nud1hyl

JPtheBeasta
04-05-2017, 11:52 AM
Zach was the most effective player out there, going 4-6. He had 4 fouls at the 15:53 mark of the second half, and ended up playing only 14 minutes (35% of the game). If anyone wants to talk about Zags needing to put the ball through the hoop more, he was our best opportunity to do so.

JW3, who was also effective, only played 23 minutes.

The UNC playing time breakdown for it's bigs was much more favorable.

This made a big difference in this game. We had to win this type of game down low but were handcuffed by fouls.

Hoopaholic
04-05-2017, 01:31 PM
Zach was the most effective player out there, going 4-6. He had 4 fouls at the 15:53 mark of the second half, and ended up playing only 14 minutes (35% of the game). If anyone wants to talk about Zags needing to put the ball through the hoop more, he was our best opportunity to do so.

JW3, who was also effective, only played 23 minutes.

The UNC playing time breakdown for it's bigs was much more favorable.

This made a big difference in this game. We had to win this type of game down low but were handcuffed by fouls.

hardly "effective" sitting on the bench with foolish fouls.......had the potential to be highly effective but needs to learn to play with lower part of body and not his hands


actually we needed a defensive stop twice inside the 2 minutes of the game once when we were ahead and once when we were behind by one....got neither

Zagceo
04-05-2017, 01:31 PM
Freedom of movement does not allow players like Hicks to use his off arm to wave off defenders like Williams and Przemek while shooting baskets.

Did anyone notice the hard body shots Perkins GAVE a couple of big Tar Heels on picks and blockouts? He was called on 1.

Przemek was fouled multiple times with smaller players having 2 hands on him......freedom of movement is only for small guys I guess.....yeah yeah still should make his bunnies.....but don't give me this freedom of movement crap as a defense for poor Refs.

Zagceo
04-05-2017, 01:40 PM
hardly "effective" sitting on the bench with foolish fouls.......had the potential to be highly effective but needs to learn to play with lower part of body and not his hands


actually we needed a defensive stop twice inside the 2 minutes of the game once when we were ahead and once when we were behind by one....got neither

How many times have you watched the game on DVR?

Hoopaholic
04-05-2017, 02:09 PM
How many times have you watched the game on DVR?

2 times now

jazzdelmar
04-05-2017, 02:14 PM
Never developed a 5th big. Edwards is a lost cause, and Rui too volatile.

JPtheBeasta
04-05-2017, 02:51 PM
Never developed a 5th big. Edwards is a lost cause, and Rui too volatile.

Developing a 5th big is a tall order.

jazzdelmar
04-05-2017, 02:53 PM
Developing a 5th big is a tall order.

Not when you start with a 7 footer.

Birddog
04-05-2017, 03:05 PM
Just had a short conversation with a basketball junkie friend of mine and he said unequivocally that in his opinion the game with S Carolina beat us up so bad that we were doomed in the championship game. I'm still thinking about it, but he was adamant (he probably lost some $$$).

jazzdelmar
04-05-2017, 03:08 PM
Just had a short conversation with a basketball junkie friend of mine and he said unequivocally that in his opinion the game with S Carolina beat us up so bad that we were doomed in the championship game. I'm still thinking about it, but he was adamant (he probably lost some $$$).

And NC had a picnic w the Qwaks?

Zagceo
04-05-2017, 06:19 PM
2 times now

so you noticed Przemek and Zach both got called for moving screens ....those some of the foolish fouls you're talking about?

willandi
04-05-2017, 07:09 PM
so you noticed Przemek and Zach both got called for moving screens ....those some of the foolish fouls you're talking about?

And I noticed that UNC didn't, despite having quite a few.

Tar Heel Jumpmaster
04-05-2017, 10:08 PM
Thanks for the kind words, Tar Heel, but don't you think it's a bit early to talk about the Zags as a number one seed next year and even returning to the title game.

Of course it's early, but we lost Marcus Paige and Brice Johnson and made it back. Believe me, I mean no offense, but your conference schedule should be handled with what you have returning and if you take care of business n on-conference there's no reason you cannot leverage the respect earned this season into a top seed for the tournament.

Where you start in the rankings is very important. If NWG returns and especially Collins, there's a great chance to get back. Keeping a point guard all-American would be huge.

johno
04-06-2017, 12:27 PM
My mantra until the day I die will be: We won the first half. Our best against their best. Then the refs took over. Still, if we make a couple of free throws and some three footers from the paint we could have won the national championship.

ZagsGoZags
04-06-2017, 01:42 PM
Of course it's early, but we lost Marcus Paige and Brice Johnson and made it back. Believe me, I mean no offense, but your conference schedule should be handled with what you have returning and if you take care of business n on-conference there's no reason you cannot leverage the respect earned this season into a top seed for the tournament.

Where you start in the rankings is very important. If NWG returns and especially Collins, there's a great chance to get back. Keeping a point guard all-American would be huge.

Hi Tar Heels, thanks for coming on. Four yrs ago we were ranked #1, 3 yrs ago elite 8, 2 yrs ago Sweet 16, this yr runner up, I think we are going to be a contender for quite awhile now. Got our first burger boy from a US high school this year and Few only needs a few top recruits to transform our team into an organized machine - even against teams that are used to burger boys.

Zags11
03-17-2018, 11:35 AM
Roy stopped our 2 best players. He put length on NWG and sent players at ZC all night, imploring the refs for calls. He lived w Josh's scoring in the first half, much of which Josh gave back with egregious TOs. Karno was the wildcard and did not deliver.

Great season. NWG is gone, no way he plays a 5th year vs WCC talent. He will hope for a FA signing or go overseas and make half a mil type money. Needs to start honing his craft; Portland, Pep, etc not the place for that.

ZC another story. He's prob 50-50 but his best pal is leaving and the team will be weaker. Perform at the combine and he's gone.

Both gone, Zags will dip. A relative term, of course. Look for 25-28 wins and plenty of new faces.

You were right on them leaving. 31-4 so far.

Kong-Kool-Aid
03-17-2018, 11:40 AM
Feels like bad Karma to revive this thread.