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View Full Version : Question: Refs, Fouls and our Reputation



zagcheer78
04-02-2017, 07:48 AM
I'm sure we have members who can enlighten me on the culture of reffing. So, I know that a game can be called well and fairly and
maybe I am blind to how well we are able to get away with fouling all the time in our conference (Not Really), but seriously, when we go to the tourney, it seems like we are the dirtiest team in the dance.
Not every game mind you, but enough to send up a red flag.
I'm sure the refs hear from each other how teams play and what to watch for. Are we pegged as a dirty team?
Or more likely, they decide who should advance, that is, who is more worthy to advance.
If the second is true, then these refs need to be culled from the herd and fired.
The NCAA monitors the teams to make sure they do not cheat, does it monitor the refs for bias?
What say you all?

Zags11
04-02-2017, 07:58 AM
Actually this years tournament I feel like gonzaga is getting the "still not as athletic treatment." If our guards or post men slide in time, it seems in the tournament that refs have called a foul. I think it's because they think we still aren't as athletic as power teams.

I know it sounds dumb. However, when I watch its always us with more fouls vs teams like wvu or south Carolina. This is what I think it is and I could be wrong.

willandi
04-02-2017, 08:07 AM
I was kind of surprised that Few didn't politely ask, "So. If we get a clean block on the ball, are we allowed continuity to slap them in the face, or is that only for against us?"


Or some acceptable variation of that direct question. Make the Refs SAY it!

DixieZag
04-02-2017, 08:18 AM
Actually this years tournament I feel like gonzaga is getting the "still not as athletic treatment." If our guards or post men slide in time, it seems in the tournament that refs have called a foul. I think it's because they think we still aren't as athletic as power teams.

I know it sounds dumb. However, when I watch its always us with more fouls vs teams like wvu or south Carolina. This is what I think it is and I could be wrong.

During a point in their big 16-0 run, there was a point where we had 10 against us and they had 4. Double bonus versus not close to 7. I don't see how that happens against a team that is known to be as physical as South Carolina unless something else is going on.

CdAZagFan
04-02-2017, 08:22 AM
This team has been very good playing through the rough patches - fouls, runs but the other team, etc. - so I haven't been too worried about officiating. That being said, I recall how quickly Shem was taken out of the game against Duke a couple of years ago. Two quick fouls and he was on the bench. I just want our players to be able to play a complete game in the NC, and hope that the kind of fouls that are being called get called on both teams fairly.

Zags11
04-02-2017, 08:49 AM
During a point in their big 16-0 run, there was a point where we had 10 against us and they had 4. Double bonus versus not close to 7. I don't see how that happens against a team that is known to be as physical as South Carolina unless something else is going on.

I believe its because they use our past reputation of guys like ammo or dickau who didn't play defense being still used against us. My dad thought refs were absolutely atrocious and one sided. I can't disagree.

JPtheBeasta
04-02-2017, 09:31 AM
I'm sure we have members who can enlighten me on the culture of reffing. So, I know that a game can be called well and fairly and
maybe I am blind to how well we are able to get away with fouling all the time in our conference (Not Really), but seriously, when we go to the tourney, it seems like we are the dirtiest team in the dance.
Not every game mind you, but enough to send up a red flag.
I'm sure the refs hear from each other how teams play and what to watch for. Are we pegged as a dirty team?
Or more likely, they decide who should advance, that is, who is more worthy to advance.
If the second is true, then these refs need to be culled from the herd and fired.
The NCAA monitors the teams to make sure they do not cheat, does it monitor the refs for bias?
What say you all?

Kentucky fans were pretty upset about the reffing in the UNC game. I am one of the tin-foil hat wearers who do think that the refs artificially keep the game close at times.

rijman
04-02-2017, 09:56 AM
I don't think the calls against the Zags had anything to do with their reputation, just bad calls, but at times it almost looks like the refs are trying to keep games close. I try not to worry about the calls knowing they often even out, but yesterday they didn't appear to be even. There were a couple defensive calls I didn't like and a non call too, but the offensive call on Zach??? I would love to hear the ref explain that call after reviewing it.

zag944
04-02-2017, 09:56 AM
Pretty incredible how we play the two most physical defenses in the tourney and somehow ended up getting called for more fouls than both. So impressed by our guys just playing through it.

Birddog
04-02-2017, 09:58 AM
I don't think the calls against the Zags had anything to do with their reputation, just bad calls, but at times it almost looks like the refs are trying to keep games close. I try not to worry about the calls knowing they often even out, but yesterday they didn't appear to be even. There were a couple defensive calls I didn't like and a non call too, but the offensive call on Zach??? I would love to hear the ref explain that call after reviewing it.

The explanation would have been "I blew the call"

ProVeeZag
04-02-2017, 10:01 AM
Kentucky fans were pretty upset about the reffing in the UNC game. I am one of the tin-foil hat wearers who do think that the refs artificially keep the game close at times.

I'm more in the camp that, in contests pitting blue bloods against non-Power conference teams, refs subtly affect the outcome of games through a series of judgement calls and "no-calls" that consistently go against one team or the other. At this level of tournament play, that crap should not happen, but occasionally does.

demian
04-02-2017, 01:45 PM
I thought the reffing yesterday was piss poor. Those three refs should be ashamed of themselves when they went to there hotels last night. If they have wives I hope there wives even let them know that they were embarrassed , disappointed & repulsed by there husbands efforts in that game. There were two things However that the reffs I thought benefited us. When SC missed a shot with 43 seconds left and we were ahead by 3 points and melson got a really tough rebound and was fouled so hard when he landed that melson almost fell down out of bounds right in front of the reffs face (great job by melson to miraculously keep his pivot foot in place), but the reffs didn't call the foul and I think it benefited us, we were able to keep the clock running and keep possession and run the clock down to 12 seconds before South Carolina got the ball back, almost affording them only ONE legitimate possession to make up 3 points against our defense being allowed to set up after essentially a timeout as reffs reviews JW3 out of bounds call. Then the other call that the reffs benefited us was Perkins foul with 3.7 seconds left in game. I know coach Few said the plan was to foul SC before shooter could get into a 3 point shot under 4 seconds, plus you can hear Goss repeatedly yelling to "Foul" during the play but it did not appear Perkins even touched thornwell. I initially thought it was a HORRIBLE call against us by the reff cuz it looked like SC was not even going to get off a good shot before clock expires like WVU. But I'm glad reffed called it cuz it didn't even give SC a chance for luck. But it almost appeared that the reff just assumed Perkins was trying to foul and just called an anticipatory foul, cuz Perkins appeared to be very surprised by the foul call also. Thanks tho reffs

ZagDad84
04-02-2017, 03:32 PM
IMO, USC got away with hacking the zags, going over the back, hip checking, etc. and the bulldogs got called for absolutely everything.

After watching the Women's semi-final where UConn got a gift flagrant one call, when Samuelson was touched on the chin incidentally by the defender sticking her arm up to defend against a pass over the top. The officials explanation was that "any contact above the shoulders, incidental or not, constitutes a flagrant one. In the GU game JWIII was clearly elbowed in the neck and Karno was poked in the eye and the officials did not even go to the monitor to look to see if a flagrant foul was committed. Why?

In general, I felt the fouls against GU were fouls (the offensive foul on Collins is the exception), but equal fouls committed by the USC team at the other end were ignored.

I don't care how you call the game, but call it equally on both sides of the ball. so the players know how to play.

ZagDad

gobroncsgozags
04-02-2017, 03:33 PM
I don't think it has anything to do with the Zags reputation, but I have no other explanation for it. The refs just did a terrible job. Truth be told though, GU didn't get called for an inordinate number of fouls, did they? Some terrible calls for sure but not an crazy number overall.

The real problem was that they wouldn't call anything on the other team. How SC didn't have at least twice as many fouls called on them, I will never understand. Same with WVU. Their defense is dependent on hacking, grabbing, pushing, etc. to be "good." The refs bought into the hype and seemed to take a "that's just how they play" attitude. The weird thing is that wasn't the case the rest of the year as they were called for a ton of fouls in the regular season. Even some people on the Cocks board were hoping the refs swallowed their whistles knowing that is how they would stay in it. The refs did and kept them in it.

caduceus
04-02-2017, 03:39 PM
Looks like they've already determined the outcome.

Official NCAA app:

https://i.redd.it/dzfz9zw0y7py.png

Seen on Reddit.

DixieZag
04-02-2017, 03:48 PM
IMO, USC got away with hacking the zags, going over the back, hip checking, etc. and the bulldogs got called for absolutely everything.

After watching the Women's semi-final where UConn got a gift flagrant one call, when Samuelson was touched on the chin incidentally by the defender sticking her arm up to defend against a pass over the top. The officials explanation was that "any contact above the shoulders, incidental or not, constitutes a flagrant one. In the GU game JWIII was clearly elbowed in the neck and Karno was poked in the eye and the officials did not even go to the monitor to look to see if a flagrant foul was committed. Why?

In general, I felt the fouls against GU were fouls (the offensive foul on Collins is the exception), but equal fouls committed by the USC team at the other end were ignored.

I don't care how you call the game, but call it equally on both sides of the ball. so the players know how to play.

ZagDad

Even the TV people were commenting on how horrible that call was.

I'm in the camp where - at this level - the refs call for "game management" so that CBS gets its billions worth of "good games." Right after SC it hits first big comeback shot to go down 10, I looked over to my old college roommate and said "we won't get a call until it's tied" - and that's exactly what happened.

Of course (and this has been noted by many), Oregon should be the most furious, I thought it obvious that Meeks first pushed, then went over the back to get that last rebound, should have put Oregon on the line for one and one (that's a foul shooting one in the bonus, right?).

sylean
04-02-2017, 04:02 PM
and then there's the SC player stepping on the line RIGHT in front of the ref and nothing done......

gobroncsgozags
04-02-2017, 04:10 PM
Even the TV people were commenting on how horrible that call was.

I'm in the camp where - at this level - the refs call for "game management" so that CBS gets its billions worth of "good games." Right after SC it hits first big comeback shot to go down 10, I looked over to my old college roommate and said "we won't get a call until it's tied" - and that's exactly what happened.

Of course (and this has been noted by many), Oregon should be the most furious, I thought it obvious that Meeks first pushed, then went over the back to get that last rebound, should have put Oregon on the line for one and one (that's a foul shooting one in the bonus, right?).

Great point. I am re-watching the game right now.

15:00 left in the 2nd half
Fouls
GU - 3
SC - 3

7:39 left in the 2nd half
GU - 10
SC - 4
And what do you know... tie game.

Zagricultural
04-02-2017, 06:28 PM
I believe there are lots of dirty referees. GU is favored by 6.5, and when they threaten to pull away the refs make it a game, GU winds by four, and the refs collect a hundred grand from the Casinos.

Zagger
04-02-2017, 06:32 PM
Ya can't screw effectively with destiny!

Go Zags!

willandi
04-02-2017, 07:59 PM
I searched NCAA.com trying to find a way to ask about the finger to Karno's eye, if it should have been a foul or not. I couldn't find anything other than mail.

It just seems to me if the missed goal tending call was egregious enough to merit a comment on a missed call, one where a player could have lost an eye should be too. Or we need to know that on a clean block, the follow through doesn't matter.

hondo
04-02-2017, 08:56 PM
Throw in a no call on a really obvious travel (dragging pivot foot for about 10 inches), which also aided SC's run.

ProVeeZag
04-02-2017, 09:00 PM
Throw in a no call on a really obvious travel (dragging pivot foot for about 10 inches), which also aided SC's run.

Oh yeah, that one was "beyond the pale". Looked like an old MC Hammer video.

maynard g krebs
04-02-2017, 09:24 PM
Of course (and this has been noted by many), Oregon should be the most furious, I thought it obvious that Meeks first pushed, then went over the back to get that last rebound, should have put Oregon on the line for one and one (that's a foul shooting one in the bonus, right?).

I said before that game that it would take an absolute miracle for the Ducks to win that game. No way CBS would allow an all Northwest final while everyone on the east coast went to bed at 10.

Meeks on the last play is great if you're an offensive lineman in football. It's not remotely close to a legal basketball play, and the baseline ref who allowed it would be terminated for incompetence and never work another game- if, that is, honest officiating was the goal. It isn't.

demian
04-02-2017, 09:33 PM
I said before that game that it would take an absolute miracle for the Ducks to win that game. No way CBS would allow an all Northwest final while everyone on the east coast went to bed at 10.

Meeks on the last play is great if you're an offensive lineman in football. It's not remotely close to a legal basketball play, and the baseline ref who allowed it would be terminated for incompetence and never work another game- if, that is, honest officiating was the goal. It isn't.

COMPETELY AGREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

maynard g krebs
04-02-2017, 09:43 PM
COMPETELY AGREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's great imo that people are talking about this more and more. It's been going on for a couple of decades now, and people seem to be wising up to it more and more. Hopefully, that begins to force more accountability and honesty on the part of the money interests.

demian
04-02-2017, 09:52 PM
It's great imo that people are talking about this more and more. It's been going on for a couple of decades now, and people seem to be wising up to it more and more. Hopefully, that begins to force more accountability and honesty on the part of the money interests.

Well said!!! Its absolutely just aweful at the crap these reffs pull. I am watching the game again right now and the reffing is just unreal. And yeah it feels so good to complain cuz we WON we can ##### all we want now and it is right and just cuz we perservered and won. Those reffs last night were an embarrassment to the profession. The reff that blew the over the back call against Oregon on last free throw should be just as embarrassed and ashamed of himself also

ZagsGoZags
04-02-2017, 09:53 PM
we all know that knowing how to risk a foul, hide a foul, or play on the edge where it is gray zone and hard for the ref to call, is a skill.
our own bigs learn this skill their first year
karno, collins, and even Edwards all had to learn how to defend so they wouldn't get so many fouls.
Is it possible that the teams that whack, smack, slap, hold, push, and are willing to damage opponents with their fouls
become skilled at this art?
Is it possible they are taught and trained to cross the line a bit, because that type of fouling is not likely to be called, or taught to keep in mind where the ref's line of vision is?
They do it all game, all season, maybe they just become excellent at camouflauge.

kitzbuel
04-02-2017, 10:46 PM
During a point in their big 16-0 run, there was a point where we had 10 against us and they had 4. Double bonus versus not close to 7. I don't see how that happens against a team that is known to be as physical as South Carolina unless something else is going on.

Absolutely agree and brought that up with my dad. As physically brutal as South Carolina made that game, it was baffling to see that discrepancy in fouls.

And then to hear comments that the blow to Karno's eye was inadvertent contact; how do you have inadvertent contact with a shooter? Isn't that the very nature of a foul?

Zagceo
04-02-2017, 10:46 PM
I thought the reffing yesterday was piss poor. Those three refs should be ashamed of themselves when they went to there hotels last night. If they have wives I hope there wives even let them know that they were embarrassed , disappointed & repulsed by there husbands efforts in that game. There were two things However that the reffs I thought benefited us. When SC missed a shot with 43 seconds left and we were ahead by 3 points and melson got a really tough rebound and was fouled so hard when he landed that melson almost fell down out of bounds right in front of the reffs face (great job by melson to miraculously keep his pivot foot in place), but the reffs didn't call the foul and I think it benefited us, we were able to keep the clock running and keep possession and run the clock down to 12 seconds before South Carolina got the ball back, almost affording them only ONE legitimate possession to make up 3 points against our defense being allowed to set up after essentially a timeout as reffs reviews JW3 out of bounds call. Then the other call that the reffs benefited us was Perkins foul with 3.7 seconds left in game. I know coach Few said the plan was to foul SC before shooter could get into a 3 point shot under 4 seconds, plus you can hear Goss repeatedly yelling to "Foul" during the play but it did not appear Perkins even touched thornwell. I initially thought it was a HORRIBLE call against us by the reff cuz it looked like SC was not even going to get off a good shot before clock expires like WVU. But I'm glad reffed called it cuz it didn't even give SC a chance for luck. But it almost appeared that the reff just assumed Perkins was trying to foul and just called an anticipatory foul, cuz Perkins appeared to be very surprised by the foul call also. Thanks tho reffs

I'm guessing Goss warned refs that we'd foul a player under 5 sec to go by placing 2 hands on them......which is what Perkins did.

It was quick and deliberate...Perkins put 2 hands to the mid section of Thornwell.

kitzbuel
04-02-2017, 10:52 PM
I'm guessing Goss warned refs that we'd foul a player under 5 sec to go by placing 2 hands on them......which is what Perkins did.

It was quick and deliberate...Perkins put 2 hands to the mid section of Thornwell.
I read today that Few actually yelled at the refs that we were going to foul as the timeout ended. He told the team to foul in that situation in the huddle.

Zags_Fanatic
04-02-2017, 11:19 PM
Refs are human and make mistakes, hopefully they will call a clean game. IF there was a valid conspiracy theory about reffing this game it would be that the NCAA would have the refs give GU the advantage because if UNC wins and the title is vacated because of the academic scandal it would be a huge black eye for college basketball so it would be better to avoid it completely and help GU win the title.

demian
04-02-2017, 11:20 PM
I'm guessing Goss warned refs that we'd foul a player under 5 sec to go by placing 2 hands on them......which is what Perkins did.

It was quick and deliberate...Perkins put 2 hands to the mid section of Thornwell.

Great point by you. Goss or Few probably did warn the reffs to be on the lookout for a fould under 4-5 seconds. you may be correct

demian
04-02-2017, 11:22 PM
I read today that Few actually yelled at the refs that we were going to foul as the timeout ended. He told the team to foul in that situation in the huddle.

that makes sense

GrizZAG
04-03-2017, 03:16 AM
Is it possible that with the NCAA making continuous changes in where they want emphasis placed in calling games these refs are struggling with how to make calls in general? I know there have been a ton of adjustments to interpretation on calls recommended or even mandated this past couple of years. To my thinking this just has caused a diversion of attention perhaps for these guys where calling a game straight up is evermore difficult? If so, it makes them look really bad, which they seem to be of late.

TexasZag
04-03-2017, 04:33 AM
After all of the crap that transpired over the past year or so with conspiracy this, conspiracy that, I don't want to buy into any idea that any of this is overtly intentional. Instead, I know that everyone has biases; admitted, or not. I also know that the only way to guard against our internal biases is to admit we have them. My guess is that this is at least part of the problem; nobody (in this case, the refs) want to admit their own biases--"we're above that", don't you know!--so some calls reflect the bias.

This is what I want to believe...But I also know that in our society, money talks (more than we care to acknowledge, sometimes).

TexasZagFan
04-03-2017, 05:04 AM
Is it possible that with the NCAA making continuous changes in where they want emphasis placed in calling games these refs are struggling with how to make calls in general? I know there have been a ton of adjustments to interpretation on calls recommended or even mandated this past couple of years. To my thinking this just has caused a diversion of attention perhaps for these guys where calling a game straight up is evermore difficult? If so, it makes them look really bad, which they seem to be of late.

For the past couple of seasons, the emphasis has been on limiting physical play. Once March rolls around, all of that goes bye-bye. Teams that are overly physical, such as BYU, WVU, and USC force the referees to call it, and they often swallow the whistle.

I hope they swallow their whistles tonight...we've proven we can man up with anyone.

Zagricultural
04-03-2017, 06:05 AM
Wrong. I don't believe any conspiracy would come from the NCAA, but from the Betting interests. With tens of millions of dollars on the line what are the odds they aren't calling a Ref and asking about keeping the spread closer, etc... We know for a fact now that it happens all the time in the NBA...

Birddog
04-03-2017, 06:12 AM
Wrong. I don't believe any conspiracy would come from the NCAA, but from the Betting interests. With tens of millions of dollars on the line what are the odds they aren't calling a Ref and asking about keeping the spread closer, etc... We know for a fact now that it happens all the time in the NBA...



Could you please substantiate that allegation, I'd like to know more.

Hoopaholic
04-03-2017, 07:34 AM
We have three interesting referees tonight.........

Eades is an ACC refereee who won the ACC Commissioner award
2012 Ohio Kansas blown call calling Withey for traveling when it clearly was not
Baylor fans absolutely hate him as being one of the most inconsistent refs in their opiion
One game in controversial call (charlotte vs GW) he called a foul and sent person to the free throw line......after one free throw made, controversy errupted that it was wrong player taking free throw
so what does he do....walks up to the player and asks him if he was fouled...said yes and took it from there (remember if he said know the free throw taken away and technical foul assessed)

Kenpom #3 rated last year #2 rated this year

Verne Harris Pac 12 and Mountain West conference official
done 8 final fours and 5 championship games

battled cancer recently
Interesting that he is ranked #18 official by Kenpom last year and #14 this year yet gets the title game consistently


Michael Stephens was not rated in top 20 last year by Kenpom and is rated #9 this year in Kenpom

absolute blown call in 2015 Wisconsin vs Duke out of bounds call with 2 minutes go and awarding ball to duke


There you have the three referees tonight

zaguarxj
04-03-2017, 08:07 AM
The difference this year is that this team is so good that they win even when it seems like the other team is getting all the calls. This team doesn't panic.

gueastcoast
04-03-2017, 08:24 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzzBhSSaMkg

zagcheer78
04-03-2017, 11:44 AM
This has been an education for me, thank you all.
The money angle seems to be the most likely. Think of all the events in history where the truth was subverted for financial gain, and yes the NCAA is dealing with the big bucks.
The TV angle is especially ugly as it upends the whole idea of the student athlete. As the advertisement for the NCAA promotes the idea of hard work in academics and sports will be rewarded. When the media controls part of he equation, the student athlete is robbed of the victory that would have come naturally.
So, it seems to me that there are winners and losers that have been manufactured by the media.
That is why it is soooo satisfying that our Zags are playing in this game. The powers that be don't like us but too bad, as said before, you cannot deny destiny!
GO ZAGS!